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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. It is not brought to you by a

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Speaker 1: school of murderous clown fish. Instead is supported by the

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Speaker 1: generous contributions of people like you, our listeners on Patreon.

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Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking sideways to learn more

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't understand the stories of things. We

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Speaker 1: simply don't know the answer too. Hey everybody, and welcome

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Speaker 1: again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Steve

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Speaker 1: as always, joined by Joe, and it's been a really

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Speaker 1: long time since we've done this. Yeah, for us, for you,

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Speaker 1: we've been putting out episodes us. We just finished the

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Speaker 1: summer series we're in. Yeah, we didn't do anything, no,

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Speaker 1: super awesome. It's really cool. Nice to get a break

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Speaker 1: here from all this hot action. But it's it's a

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Speaker 1: little weird now because it's been a long time and

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Speaker 1: I don't remember how to operate any of the equipment.

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Speaker 1: Did anybody remember to turn the mixer on? It appears

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Speaker 1: to be okay, okay, sweet, all right, well you know

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Speaker 1: we should we should get this off on a good foot,

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Speaker 1: so we've got to do the cheers, So everybody put

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Speaker 1: your hands in the circle and on three one two

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Speaker 1: three awesome okay, perfect, it's going to be another fine episode. Igod,

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Speaker 1: I got it wrong. It's supposed to be detch Lindy,

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Speaker 1: We're always all right. Um Well, this week, everybody, we

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Speaker 1: are going to talk about the Wonderland murders, which took

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Speaker 1: place on the first July in Los Angeles, California. And

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Speaker 1: a quick warning to our listeners. This story covers a

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Speaker 1: very brutal murder and it's gonna have a lot of

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Speaker 1: conversation surrounding drugs and pornography. So if that bothers you,

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Speaker 1: turn us off now. But or more importantly, if you

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Speaker 1: have little ears around, you need to pause us now

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Speaker 1: and come back later on your own. Little leaders don't

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Speaker 1: need this. Yeah, or you know, get those those ear

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Speaker 1: extension things come on earbuds headphones. No, you know the

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Speaker 1: things that make your ears look bigger, the spot ears. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: why so that you don't look like you have little

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Speaker 1: ears anymore. You would be thinking about it. You've got

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Speaker 1: kind of little ears. Okay, we're going to keep going.

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Speaker 1: Um So, before I move into anything about the story,

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Speaker 1: I do want to say that this was a listener's suggestion.

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Speaker 1: The first person to suggests this was Angel, So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Angel and anybody else who suggested it, thank you as well,

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Speaker 1: just don't have those written down. Oh, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I want to get a shout out to Elena, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's Elena who was all hurt because I did

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Speaker 1: an episode and I forgot to give her a shout out,

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Speaker 1: so I was sorry, Elienough every time the list is big,

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Speaker 1: it is, but it does have us arch function like

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Speaker 1: our website. Yeah that's true. Okay, so let's go ahead

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Speaker 1: and get into our story. Uh. This story is typically

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Speaker 1: either referred to as the Wonderland murders or sometimes you'll

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Speaker 1: hear it called the police actually started calling it this

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Speaker 1: was the four on the Floor murders. You can probably

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Speaker 1: guess by that second name that four people were killed.

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Speaker 1: And if you know Los Angeles at all, you're going

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Speaker 1: to be aware of in the valley, it's uh, Wonderland

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Speaker 1: av and it's what's the name of the valley? I

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Speaker 1: just suddenly lost it. It's Laurel Canyon. Yeah, so it's

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Speaker 1: it's in Laurel Canyon, which I know I am already

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Speaker 1: screwed it up. See, we haven't done this since so long.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to talk worth than normal. You

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Speaker 1: haven't spoken in like a month, I really haven't. I

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Speaker 1: took a vale of silence and everybody was happy. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so that is where it took. All of this took place.

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Speaker 1: So here's what we know as we take the story

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Speaker 1: from the start. Sometime in the night or possibly in

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Speaker 1: the early morning hours of July one, someone gained access

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Speaker 1: to the three story house at eight seven six three

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Speaker 1: Wonderland av and they proceeded to go through the house

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Speaker 1: and beat every person they found to death or nearly

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Speaker 1: to death with a pipe pipes ye, possibly plural. We

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Speaker 1: know that they were using pipes because of the fact

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Speaker 1: that they were threaded pipes. They had threads on the end,

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Speaker 1: and they left impressions in the bodies as well as

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Speaker 1: the walls and the furniture, and their heads in the

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Speaker 1: bodies and the furniture, in everything. It's yeah, it was brutal.

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Speaker 1: At the time of this attack, there were five people

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Speaker 1: in the house. The first person was twenty two year

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Speaker 1: old Barbara Richardson. Four people died. Five people were in

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Speaker 1: the house with the happy story sort of damage. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well no, okay, so Barbara's the first person. Now, Barbara

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Speaker 1: was the girlfriend of a man named David Lynde. David

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Speaker 1: Lynde wasn't in the house at the time, but we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about him a little bit more later on.

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Speaker 1: But she was sleeping downstairs on the couch and was

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Speaker 1: most likely the first one to die because she was

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Speaker 1: sleeping near the front door, and the access was gained

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Speaker 1: from the front door. Probably, yes, Okay, yeah, there was.

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Speaker 1: There was a garage and a front door, and from

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Speaker 1: what I can gather, I've never seen I've never gotten

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Speaker 1: a good picture of the garage to say that there

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Speaker 1: was stairs. I think it was you parked in the

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Speaker 1: garage and then you walked up the front step more

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Speaker 1: like a car poard sort of situation. Well, it was,

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Speaker 1: it was under the house. That's my impression is going

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Speaker 1: on to the right side of the house. There's just

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Speaker 1: there's an external stairway. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is

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Speaker 1: that I've seen the police footage and that's where I

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Speaker 1: was trying to figure out there was internal stairs from

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Speaker 1: the garage. Whenever you go on like Google street view.

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Speaker 1: Of course the garage stores closed and somebody lives, so anyway,

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Speaker 1: the access is most likely from the front door, which

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Speaker 1: was on the side of the house, and she was

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Speaker 1: sleeping on a couch on that floor that would have

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Speaker 1: been near that door. So she's probably the first one

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Speaker 1: to die. She more likely she might have been the

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Speaker 1: person who got up and answered the door. If if

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Speaker 1: she did indeed let somebody in, then yeah, she would

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Speaker 1: have been the first one to die. You're absolutely right

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Speaker 1: that it wouldn't have been died in her sleep. She

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Speaker 1: would have been awake for it. But that's hard to tell. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's completely total conjecture. We go to the first bedroom,

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Speaker 1: which I believe is on the same floor. The layout

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Speaker 1: of this house is weird because it's kind of narrow

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Speaker 1: and tall, tall because lots in that area, because it's

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Speaker 1: expensively Yeah, it's like San Francisco, you know, skinny tall

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Speaker 1: town home. So I believe the bedroom that was also

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Speaker 1: on the first floor. But in that bedroom, um, there

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Speaker 1: was Ron Lonnius and his wife Susan. Now Susan bad

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Speaker 1: timing on her part, wasn't normally there. She was visiting

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Speaker 1: to try and fix her marriage with with Ron Lonnias.

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Speaker 1: But they were sleeping in this first lower bedroom and

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Speaker 1: they were probably the second and the third to be attacked.

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Speaker 1: She he was beat to death. He was killed. She, however,

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Speaker 1: was not killed. She was beaten so severely that she

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Speaker 1: suffered brain damage and amnesia. She has memory loss for

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Speaker 1: the whole event. She doesn't remember anything well reasonably, she

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Speaker 1: was beat so bad that they thought they had killed her.

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Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, Yeah, it makes total sense that

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Speaker 1: she didn't. Her brain didn't catalog. Her brain was dead

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Speaker 1: maybe for a while effectively. I don't think intentional anymore,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I think her brain might have been like okay, bye, yeah,

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Speaker 1: brain shutdown. Um, but okay, so then we're gonna move upstairs.

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Speaker 1: So now we have two people who are dead and

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Speaker 1: one who's alive. If we go upstairs to the master bedroom,

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Speaker 1: Billy dev Role and his girlfriend Joey Miller. Joy Miller.

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Speaker 1: It was her house. She owned the house, and Billy was,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously her living boyfriend. By the way, she's

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Speaker 1: she's kind of all these people are a little bit

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Speaker 1: tragic in a sense. And because I've seen pictures of

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Speaker 1: Joy when she was younger and she was studying, she was, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and by the end she was What about Billy, he

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Speaker 1: was he was like an average looking guy. He was

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Speaker 1: kind of what about Ron was he looking no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean there was nothing outstanding about any of these

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Speaker 1: people in the looks department. One. By this she had

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Speaker 1: come from a rather affluent beginning and then she had

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Speaker 1: slid downhill. One would assume she owned owned a home

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Speaker 1: in l ah even in the eighties. That still, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that she apparently looked like crap by the time she died.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, no, she looked really bad by the end,

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Speaker 1: just because of the drugs. But um so, anyway, they

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Speaker 1: are in the master bedroom and they were also both

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Speaker 1: beaten to death. There is footage of ailable of this

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Speaker 1: crime scene. The police who went into it, they described

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Speaker 1: it as an utter blood bath. They've said it looked

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Speaker 1: like somebody walk through the house with buckets of blood

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Speaker 1: throwing it around. That's how brutally these people were beaten.

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Speaker 1: This was one of This was such a drum just

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Speaker 1: crazy scene that for the first time ever, the Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles Police Department took a video camera in and video

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Speaker 1: videotape the entire scene. Get remember, this video technology is

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Speaker 1: not something that cops normally would have access to, but

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Speaker 1: they recorded the whole thing that's available on the internet.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you now that it is not

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Speaker 1: for the faint of heart. If the sight of blood

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Speaker 1: bothers you, I wouldn't watch it. We're probably not gonna

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Speaker 1: link to it, but it is a very simple string

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Speaker 1: of Google you can find it. So how did the

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Speaker 1: police find out about this? Though? It's a very good question.

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Speaker 1: So we don't know if the attack happened in the

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Speaker 1: late night or early morning of the first July, but

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Speaker 1: the dark hours, the dark hours, but sometime during the

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Speaker 1: middle of the day on the first July. There's a

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Speaker 1: guy working next story. He he was a mover and

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Speaker 1: he kept hearing moans, he kept hearing noises, and what

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Speaker 1: he turned out he was hearing was Susan because she

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Speaker 1: was alive. Were they kind of town houses like really

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Speaker 1: close together together. There's super tight there is there's probably

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Speaker 1: ten five ft between him at the most. You know,

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Speaker 1: I always have, we knew, but now they're they're right

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Speaker 1: next to each other. And so what he did is

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Speaker 1: he walked up the house and he could I think

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Speaker 1: he looked at the door and he had seen that's

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Speaker 1: all he needed, and he called the cops. And so

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Speaker 1: the cops came, and some of the bodies were so

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Speaker 1: badly beaten that they couldn't identify them from their face.

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Speaker 1: Is it took fingerprints and luckily they had all been

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Speaker 1: arrested before, right, they had all been uh it through

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Speaker 1: the system. Yeah, so they're their prints were in the

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Speaker 1: system luckily. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, it turns out

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Speaker 1: that whoever had committed this act, theoretically, at least we

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Speaker 1: believe or the police believe that whoever committed that these murders,

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Speaker 1: what they did is after they had killed everybody, they

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Speaker 1: tore the house apart because it was an utter disaster.

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Speaker 1: And they believe that what was going on is that

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Speaker 1: they were they were looking for drugs and money, no

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Speaker 1: doubt this was this was a drug house. It was

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Speaker 1: a drug house. And that's that's exactly why is that

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Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of this story before, you you've

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Speaker 1: got to be let in on this little secret, which

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Speaker 1: is Ron, Billy and Susan were part of what was

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Speaker 1: own as the Wonderland Gag. The gang was notorious for

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Speaker 1: selling drugs out of the house, and primarily they were

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Speaker 1: selling cocaine. They were all hooked on um heroin, but

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Speaker 1: they sold coke because it coke made the most money.

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Speaker 1: And I heard that these guys were actually kind of

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Speaker 1: blatant about what they were doing, because I heard about

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Speaker 1: like you know, people would come by and instead of

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Speaker 1: coming into the house, they just got to the lower

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Speaker 1: balcony and just say, tossed me the tossed me the

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Speaker 1: water cash and then they would drop the drop the

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Speaker 1: drugs down into their hands. Yes, I mean it was

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Speaker 1: the eighties in l A. It's not as though, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they were operating, everybody was doing that stuff. It

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Speaker 1: was kind of commonplace. Yeah, I guess, no offense to

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Speaker 1: anybody who's offended by that. Now, I meant it. I

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Speaker 1: meant the offense. I'm sorry sounds there for saying that

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Speaker 1: everybody was doing coke in the eighties in l A.

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Speaker 1: My mom for a reference, my mom lived in l

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Speaker 1: in the late seventies early eighties. So, I I know

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Speaker 1: you've heard some stories. I've heard some stuff. So here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. Let me let me give you a Let

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Speaker 1: me give you some information on what a class act

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Speaker 1: the Wonderland Gang was. So what they would do is

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Speaker 1: they would sell drugs, but to acquire drugs. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: would buy drugs and resell them at a higher price,

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Speaker 1: but they would also steal drugs and what they would

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Speaker 1: do is they would go to other dealers. They would steal,

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Speaker 1: get police badges, you know, stolen or fake whichever, and

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Speaker 1: bust into somebody's house pretending to be the cops, steal

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Speaker 1: all their drugs and money, and then turn around and

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Speaker 1: sell those drugs back on the street. And so it

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Speaker 1: was nothing but but pure profit of that. Yeah, and really,

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Speaker 1: what are you gonna do. You can't call the cops

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Speaker 1: and be like, hey, somebody stole my cocao. Actually is

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Speaker 1: one thing you can go buy and beat them to

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Speaker 1: death with the pipe if you know who it is. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing is that these guys they had to

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Speaker 1: look like cops. So it wasn't as if they were masked.

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Speaker 1: If they showed up with police badges and mass everybody like,

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Speaker 1: you're not really a cop, screw you. But when you

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Speaker 1: show up as a you know, with a gun and

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Speaker 1: a badge, people tend to not resist. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: how they worked their magic. Um. This reminds me of

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Speaker 1: the first season of True Detective. Yeah, you know, do

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Speaker 1: you see did you watch that? Yeah? When you know

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Speaker 1: he goes undercover, Yeah, going to the house. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Crazy good series. You gotta

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Speaker 1: recommend that. Ye. So here's the thing is that drugs

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Speaker 1: people are coming and going to this house all the time,

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Speaker 1: and drugs are being sold out of the house all

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Speaker 1: the time. So that's part of the reason that when

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Speaker 1: the attack took place, it wasn't reported because all the neighbors,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it had to have been loud, there had

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Speaker 1: to be screams and shouts of just you know, pure

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Speaker 1: terror and pain, and and nobody called the cops because

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Speaker 1: they were like another freaking party next door and they're

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Speaker 1: just hopped up, and they would either ignore it or

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Speaker 1: is one lady said she turned up the TV to

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Speaker 1: drowned it out. Yeah. You know what I've actually noticed,

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Speaker 1: particularly if you are used to hearing screams a lot,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to delineate screams of like joy and a differentiation, yeah,

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Speaker 1: from screams of pain, particularly if you know, I mean, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so if if any of our neighbors started screaming, we

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Speaker 1: would immediately be like, oh God, something's wrong, right, But

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Speaker 1: if they're screaming all the time, if you scream, start

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Speaker 1: to tune it out, right, And you definitely aren't going

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Speaker 1: to tune in if suddenly it sounds a little different.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I know that there are people out

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Speaker 1: there who will always say, well, no, you would you

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Speaker 1: can tell the difference between those screams, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: Well if the other thing is the neighbors might have

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Speaker 1: heard the screams and thought that sounds like somebody's being murdered.

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Speaker 1: But I really like those people, or even like or

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Speaker 1: even they've beat some other people up in the house before,

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Speaker 1: like the people who lived there would bring people and

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Speaker 1: beating them, you know, like, it's not if somebody tries

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Speaker 1: to screw you on a deal in your house, it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a well known fact that people get their

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Speaker 1: their ass handed to them for doing that. So you'd

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Speaker 1: be used to hearing this stuff. So we're we're gonna

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Speaker 1: keep moving on here, um as um as always. On

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Speaker 1: the first and July, people showed up at Wonderland av

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Speaker 1: at that house. This is not the cops, this is

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Speaker 1: not the mover. This is people who want their drugs

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Speaker 1: as and I need to get my fixed show up

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Speaker 1: and nobody answers the door. And it seems that the

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Speaker 1: door at this point was unlocked and open because people

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Speaker 1: apparently we're wandering through the house and going, oh, look,

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Speaker 1: there's blood everywhere and they're dead. Hey, I'm gonna going

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Speaker 1: to ransack the place. Yeah, I think it's some money

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Speaker 1: to say I could sell this stuff to get some drugs,

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Speaker 1: and maybe they got drugs and maybe they got money,

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Speaker 1: and all their buddies, all their buddies see the corpses

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Speaker 1: and don't call the cops. They just ransacked the place.

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Speaker 1: And so people tearing through the house, So it made

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Speaker 1: the crime scene just that much more difficult for the police.

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Speaker 1: I watched a video with I think it was the

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Speaker 1: chief at the time, and you could tell that he

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Speaker 1: was freaking livid over the fact that people and he

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Speaker 1: didn't like addicts, I could tell that, and he was

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Speaker 1: just super mad that they had been going through the

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Speaker 1: house while all these people were dead and just didn't

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Speaker 1: didn't care. I don't. I mean it's hard a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I think if you're a drug addict, a lot of

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Speaker 1: times you aren't thinking I'm gonna pull the steed here.

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Speaker 1: You're not thinking clearly and rationally. So you show up

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Speaker 1: to your drug dealers house who's known drug dealers, and

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Speaker 1: you're there, you know, in the morning or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: you see that they're murdered, and you call the cops

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Speaker 1: and they say, okay, like you're really this is the

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Speaker 1: scenario you run through in your head, right, You're like, Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: if I call the cops, the cops are gonna ask

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing here, and I don't have to have

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Speaker 1: a good reason to be here. So, like you guys

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Speaker 1: were cool. I'm sorry that this happened to you, but

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Speaker 1: I would rather not get thrown in jail. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be a suspect. They're gonna book me. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to jail for the rest of my life. I get it,

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Speaker 1: totally understanding that I'm just walking away, I totally. But also,

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Speaker 1: there's such a thing as like anonymous nine one one calls. Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know the thing about it is is they those

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Speaker 1: guys had every reason to believe that somebody just like

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Speaker 1: him was going to show up twenty minutes later, an

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Speaker 1: hour later. You know, I discovered the body, so they

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Speaker 1: just figured I'll do a quick search, see if I

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Speaker 1: can put some smack or a little cash, and I

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Speaker 1: want to just leave. I do want to say something

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Speaker 1: because we're we're about to go into we're gonna dive

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Speaker 1: pretty deep into some rug adult behavior, some junkie behavior,

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Speaker 1: and there it's gonna come clear. I'm just gonna be

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Speaker 1: honest about this. I don't like junkies, and that's a

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Speaker 1: personal belief. I have problems with them. Now there is

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Speaker 1: there are people who think differently than I and believe

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Speaker 1: that you shouldn't blame someone who is suffering from an addiction. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't agree with that. So my point is I'm

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Speaker 1: saying this now, let's agree to disagree. Please don't send

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Speaker 1: me emails to correct my thinking. Just just my belief

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Speaker 1: based on my experiences in life. Yeah, I'll say this,

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Speaker 1: and that as it happens to the best of us,

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Speaker 1: it happens to great people, and it happens to not

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Speaker 1: so great people. And let's just leave it there and

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Speaker 1: let's move forward with the story. I guess I was

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Speaker 1: just going to add that it is my sense that

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Speaker 1: these people, drug adult or not, we're not necessarily good people. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: they were not, and so so I think what Steve

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Speaker 1: is trying to say is that this is not a

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Speaker 1: sweeping generalization of everybody who's ever done drugs. Ever, We're

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Speaker 1: just talking about these people, and we are probably gonna

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Speaker 1: like forget and use some more. It's going to come

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Speaker 1: across the careful as bashing and I and if it does,

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00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 1: it's unintentional but things. But we're also, you know, sitting

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Speaker 1: in a studio drinking beer. So like, sorry, guys, but

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Speaker 1: here's our disclaimer. It's not a sweeping generalization, even when

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it. Okay, so let's move on. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk. So we just we talked about all

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Speaker 1: these lovely folks who have come through the house and

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Speaker 1: probably sifted through their belongings. Let's talk about a very

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Speaker 1: well known person who frequented the house on Wonderland Avenue.

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Speaker 1: Now he was in and out of there all the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that would be John Holmes. Yes, John Holmes of

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Speaker 1: the thirteen and a half inch notoriety. It was for

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Speaker 1: one thing, he's a very big star. Yeah. And he

364
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Speaker 1: had a long career and kind of really a big

365
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Speaker 1: width of a career as it was. Yeah, it really

366
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Speaker 1: was just spanned a lot of different he kind of

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Speaker 1: he did god get the whole hog. Um. On a

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Speaker 1: really odd side note here, before we get too much

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Speaker 1: into John Holmes or John Holmes anyway, Um, on a

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Speaker 1: side note, this somehow has turned out to be the

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Speaker 1: second story in a row where I've had Val Kilmer

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Speaker 1: playing the lead role of the person in my story. Well,

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Speaker 1: isn't that the new theme of our podcast? Because he

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Speaker 1: was in the Lion one that I did Lasts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and he was in a movie called Wonderland portraying

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Speaker 1: John Holmes, which I will not recommend anybody watch. It

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00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: doesn't hold up. Just a conspiracy, oh in it's a conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: He was in a movie called Conspiracy. But you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: it was in a lot of movies. But also, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's easy to find um films with

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Speaker 1: l Kilmer. I mean, you know, given his like really

382
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: tragic past of you know, both of his parents being

383
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Speaker 1: murdered and him like really facing his deepest fear. That yeah, yeah,

384
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: that was that was. That was definitely another one of

385
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: his good movies. Um, okay, if anybody has ever seen

386
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: the movie Boogie Nights, uh, that is loosely based on

387
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 1: the life of John Holmes, It's okay, you know, oh,

388
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: you can keep going. I'll definitely not cut that. But yeah,

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00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 1: I know, if if some of the stuff then we

390
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: talk about sounds familiar, if you've seen that movie. It's

391
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Speaker 1: because it was modeled after his life. And we're now

392
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Speaker 1: gonna have to wait till Devin and Joe finish their music.

393
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: That song was put the best affect an airplane. Okay,

394
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: let's not get off track here. Was that not in

395
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Speaker 1: Boogie Night? It may have been? It might have been

396
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: it was an airplane. Sorry, Okay, I'm done. It's obvious

397
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Speaker 1: we haven't done this in a while. We're freaking looping

398
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: in with not back in our groove yet. Sorry, um okay.

399
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Speaker 1: For those who don't know about John Holmes, uh, he

400
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: was a porn star. He began his career as a

401
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: nude model in the late or mid to late sixties

402
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Speaker 1: and then moved over into making pornography in the seventies.

403
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Speaker 1: Because of the size of his package, he was. He

404
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: was an instant star. He kind of a freak. He was.

405
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: He was a huge star. Yeah, I heard that the

406
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: story about his first He actually proposed this to this

407
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: producer and said, hey, I'd like to be a porn star.

408
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: And the guy that took a look at him, because

409
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: let's face it, he didn't have that really a manly

410
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: if his no and there was nothing great he wasn't

411
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: handsome by any manner of mean, yeah, much better looking, right,

412
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: I just like, yeah, yeah, but the porcupine had a

413
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: lot going on him. But yeah, so jog that's what

414
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, but that's other guy looks at Holmes

415
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: and just says, no, I don't think I'm interested in.

416
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Speaker 1: Then Holmes drops his pants and it's like, oh, I

417
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: guess yeah, OK, yeah, now I'm interested. Yes. We were

418
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: going to make a lot of films together, and they did.

419
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Speaker 1: They did thousands of films. He was in over two

420
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Speaker 1: thousand pornos in his lifetime. He says that he slept

421
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Speaker 1: with over fourteen thousand women. Now that's by Holmes's account,

422
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: and he was a notorious liar by the way. That

423
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: about that, well, that's a hard part. We'll get into

424
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: his lying here. Sure. I mean, if he was in

425
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: two thousand pornos, he probably slept. I mean, I don't know,

426
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: so at least a thousands. Let me give you this here.

427
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: So he was in pornos, he was doing nude modeling.

428
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: He would um, he'd pimp himself out. He would have

429
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: sex with people for money. And later on it turns

430
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: out he was having sex for drugs because John Holmes

431
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: was a giant coke fiend, A huge coke fiend. Yeah,

432
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: he wass coke feed I am actually surprised the guy's

433
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: heart didn't just explode. I mean, he was doing that

434
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: stuff in such quantities, you know what do really long

435
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: line obviously had a very strong heart to be able

436
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: to perform in that field the way he did. Freaking

437
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: jokes here, Okay according to Holmes, Um okay, So yeah

438
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: he was. He was a huge coke fiend and he was.

439
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: This is this kind of his money aspect of it,

440
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: because Holmes made a lot of claims, As Joe said,

441
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,239
Speaker 1: he was kind of a notorious layer. He claimed at

442
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: one point that he was making seven hundred and fifty

443
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year. This is in the seventies, mind you,

444
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: which that's gotta be over a million million and a

445
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: half in today's money at least, probably more like several million. Acts. Yeah,

446
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: but he was, yeah, because he was making all that

447
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: money from, like I said, through movies, photos, and turning tricks.

448
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: Private events he called them private events. Yeah. I don't

449
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: know if it was seven fifty, but I'm sure he

450
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: was making a pile of money he was making a

451
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: huge flushed it all down the toilet and drugs. Well yeah,

452
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: And that's the thing is that when John Holmes first

453
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: got into the industry, he didn't smoke or he smoked cigarettes,

454
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: but he didn't do anything else in it. And then

455
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: he started doing pot, and he started doing quayle lose,

456
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: and he started doing cooke, and it just it just

457
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: progressively more and more and more. Um, four point five million,

458
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: four point five million, jeez, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is

459
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: the guy had a kind of an addictive personality. He

460
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: certainly seemed to adicted to sex. Yeah, and by the

461
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: end of the seventies, he into the early eighties, he

462
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: had progressed. His usage had progressed to the point that

463
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: he was free basing cocaine, which is the equivalent of

464
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: crack as far as I understand, and he was, you know,

465
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: he's taken as many drugs as he can. He was

466
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: known this is how much. This is how much drugs

467
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: this guy would take. He was known for carrying a

468
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: briefcase at all times, and in that briefcase was his

469
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: drugs and his paraphernalia. And he was taking a hit

470
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: every five to fifteen minutes. Well, it had a negative

471
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: side effect, which is that his his main claim to

472
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: fame was no longer functional. Huge draw, a huge downfall.

473
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah it was. It was. It was

474
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: black and Mark. He was actually kind of a small

475
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: and flaccid at that point. Well relatively, let's be honest, um,

476
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: But anyway, so when you show up in the set

477
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: and you know you can't perform, well, well the problem

478
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: was he couldn't perform. He also only wanted to do drugs,

479
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: so he would be they couldn't find him, and then

480
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: they find him and he was just high as a kite.

481
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: So we just he got blacklisted. He people gave him

482
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: chances and eventually everybody was like, dude, get out, we

483
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: don't care. They called him the King, and the King

484
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: had left the building. Can't been kicked out of the building.

485
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: It was King of Porn there for a while. But yeah,

486
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: by the end they were they were joking that the

487
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: only way to get him on the set was to

488
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: leave a trail of cocaine. They did so. So at

489
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: this point, he's gone for making all of this money

490
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: to not being able to work, but he's still got

491
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 1: this massive addiction and he's got to figure out how

492
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 1: to support it. At one point he took to um.

493
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: He took the stealing from cars, you know, stealing stuff

494
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: out of cars. He would also go to Los Angeles

495
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: International Airport and walk up the baggage claim and just

496
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: grab a couple of bags and walk away to sell

497
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: what he found in the bag. Yeah, I know this

498
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: seems silly, but like, I just don't understand why people

499
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: don't do that these days. Still, I think there's more security.

500
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: There's that much security around baggage claim. I think there's

501
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: more security than you realize. I mean, yeah, and I've

502
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 1: student baggage claim and waited for people, and I've noticed

503
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: the security just because I'm standing around, right, I don't know. Yeh,

504
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: when I was at that age because I was alive

505
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: back then, it was typically kind of a spot check

506
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: kind of thing, so you could get busted. There might

507
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: be a guy to lock up and say, hey, you know,

508
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: I canna check your check your ticket against your bag,

509
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: but not always problem. You can just drop the bags

510
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: and run and then it's most likely just gonna pick

511
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 1: the bags of putting back on the carousel. So at

512
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: this point, like I said, he's stealing to make money.

513
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: He um scumbag that he is. He's also doing some

514
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: other really terrible things. Holmes was married when he got

515
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: into the porn business, and his wife was not down

516
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,239
Speaker 1: with it. Well, I like that. I like the way

517
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: he just sort of like come, he started doing porns

518
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: without telling her, and then one day he comes so

519
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: and says, hey, I found my I found my calling

520
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: in life. And he said, really, what is it? I

521
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: want to be a porn star and I just want

522
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: to sleep with a bunch of other ladies on camera

523
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: for money. Yeah, and she was not okay with it,

524
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: I understand, but she wouldn't she didn't divorce it. That's

525
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: what I don't understand. They were married for ten years,

526
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: they were together. She didn't sleep with him after he

527
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: started performing. Okay, I think gonna seem really really um jaded, probably,

528
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: but I totally understand if she even saw like a

529
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: couple of them and saw his upward trajectory and able

530
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: sorry and was able to realize that he was probably

531
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: going to make a lot of money doing porn. If

532
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: she waited to divorce him, she could make a bigger

533
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: claim on what he would owe her an alimony because

534
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: she was used to a higher standard of living quote unquote,

535
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: and I and you know, I never I never. I

536
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: know that they were married for ten years. I never

537
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: looked at I think that by the time she divorced him,

538
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: he was a total addict and he had dying zero. Yeah,

539
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: but I'm sure she could make that. I mean she

540
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: could at the very least be making a claim. Again, well,

541
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: you can sue a guy who has zero dollars for

542
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: a million and you're still getting en up zero. Absolutely,

543
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: but if he ever comes back into money, he owes

544
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: you a lot of back stuff. Yeah, I guess that's true.

545
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: H I hope our listeners aren't judging me, right, Yeah

546
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: they are. But I gotta say, in the end, it

547
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 1: was a bad call on her part because he went

548
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: up costing her a pile of mind. He came and

549
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: went and he used her a lot, like the time

550
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: he stole her credit and charged and something like that.

551
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah and all. Yeah, okay, so we were but we

552
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: fell a little off track here. We were talking about married.

553
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: So he was married and he was out of money

554
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: and he needed to find a way to make money.

555
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: And uh, it turns out he wasn't above pimping out

556
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: his girlfriend down by the way. He started dating don

557
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: when she was fifteen. He was a twenty five thirty

558
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: year old man at that point. And and by and

559
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: by the time that he started pimping her out, they

560
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: had been together for five years, so she was now

561
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: twenty and he totally hooked on coke. He got he

562
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: hooked her on drugs and then he put her on

563
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: the street. And there are some terrible interviews of the

564
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: things that he would do. So he did really bad

565
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: things with a lot of people, and everybody in the

566
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: business kind of hated him. They there's an interview I

567
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: was watching UM where somebody was talking about the fact

568
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: that what a massive liar he was, and they said

569
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: John Holmes lied as much as he breathed. He would

570
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: open his mouth and garbage would come out, and he

571
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: was known for screwing people over that he knew somebody.

572
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: There was an interview I watched where a lady said, yeah,

573
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: we made the mistake of telling John we were going

574
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: to be going running errands in the morning and not

575
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: home till noon, and they came home at noon and

576
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: their house was empty. He said three things. He said

577
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: that basically, anything that was worth more than maybe three

578
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: or four bucks he had taken. Yeah, I gotta I

579
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: gotta tell you. After researching his life and after watching

580
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: that BBC documentary, I just wanted to spray myself with

581
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: disinfective BBC documentary. Yeah, So I think I think it's

582
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: pretty easy to say at this point that Holmes was

583
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: not gonna win edny Man of the Year awards. He was.

584
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: He was completely sez and so he was connected to

585
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: the Wonderland Gang. He was, Um, what what happens here

586
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: is that Holmes is connected the cops On the tenth

587
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: of July, they had figured out that Holmes was one

588
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: of the known characters that went around that house, and

589
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: they found he and on hold up in a hotel

590
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: on the tenth of July, and they went in and

591
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: they grabbed him, and Holmes, at least at first, told

592
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: them a story that they really liked, which we'll get

593
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 1: into here shortly. Uh, they tell him, or he tells

594
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: them this story. He says, you've got to protect me.

595
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: You gotta put me in witness protection, you gotta do

596
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: all this stuff, get done, get my wife, lock us

597
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: all up so we're safe. YadA, YadA, YadA, all three

598
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: of us, all three And they do they all are

599
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: in a suite with the police for like two weeks,

600
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: and then and he clams up and he won't tell

601
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: the police anything else. In the little bits he gives them,

602
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: he is changing the story and it's all morphing. And

603
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: eventually the Los Angeles Police Department has had enough of

604
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: him and they cut him free, like, we give up, dude,

605
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: We're done with you. Get out. We're not we're not

606
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: protecting you. You're not telling us anything because he did.

607
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: He just completely clammed up with these Oh well, I

608
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: can't tell you because it's gonna be a danger to everybody,

609
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah blah. I mean, he just a

610
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: typical garbage. There was another word I was gonna try

611
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: and say there, like um, A reliable person. No, he

612
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: wasn't um. And so they they let him go. Eventually, though,

613
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: the cops would decide that Holmes must be the responsible

614
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: party through one form or another in the Wonderland murders. Well,

615
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: he was connected and they found a palm print, and

616
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: so the cops hauled him in and they had to

617
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: chase him down of Florida to get him, but they

618
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: eventually found him. Florida Man strikes again. Yes, and they

619
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: put him on trial, but he got off scott free.

620
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: They couldn't make the charge of stick because the case

621
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: was pretty circumstantial. There's not any evidence, really tiny amount,

622
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: but not much. So at this point, what we have

623
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: in in our story that we've spent all this time

624
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: talking about is we have a house full of dead

625
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: people and nobody who we can say for sure is responsible.

626
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: So at this point, I think it's time to go

627
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: to the theory machine theory mazine. Theory number one is

628
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: that this is the revenge plot of Eddie Nash and

629
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: Gregory Dials. This theory is the most popular, joy popular,

630
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: especially with the Los Angeles Police Department. The huge, huge,

631
00:36:53,640 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: gigantic and a half. Yeah, the only way to the

632
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: theories that it started realized kind of mostly on the

633
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: testimony of John Holmes. So it's flaccid, Yeah, it's a

634
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: little Yeah, it's a limp theory. Um. So he let's

635
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: go ahead and stop making jokes and we're gonna get

636
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: into the actual meat of this theory, which is that

637
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna beat the meat a local drug heavy weight

638
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: by the name of Eddie Nash, who, by the way,

639
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: his real name was Adele nazare law. I hope I

640
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: pronounced that right, Okay. Apparently he had been robbed somewhere

641
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: between one to three days prior to the murders taking place.

642
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: And Eddie Nash for a little bit of background. He

643
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: was a heavy hitter. He owned clubs and bars all

644
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: over Los Angeles at the time, and he also sold

645
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: a lot and did a lot of drugs. He was actually,

646
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: he's actually an all American success story. He came to

647
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: America from Palestine and with nothing, with nothing, he started

648
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: a hot dog cart and turned that into a giant

649
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: empire of clubs and cocaine. I know. And he was

650
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: He was not somebody that I would screw it, oh no,

651
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: because he he also just like Holmes, he started doing

652
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: drugs and then he got into free base and once

653
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: he started free basing coke, he was he was off

654
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: his rails. But we'll talk about that in the second.

655
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: But the other player in this theory is a guy

656
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 1: named Gregory Dials. And Dials was a three pound bodyguard

657
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: slash enforcer who knocked heads for him and he was

658
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: a big, ugly, scary guy and he supposedly knew kung

659
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: fu or something like that. No if you look at

660
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: this guy, it was like, I don't see. He probably

661
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: at one point trained in something when he was much

662
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: lighter build, but then he got big and he just

663
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: always said, I know, kung fu or whatever whichever won him.

664
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: You know. Actually, I gotta say that I know some

665
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: people who are into martial arts, and even if you're

666
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: kind of fat, I mean you know how to punch.

667
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: You still you know how to you still know the

668
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: techniques and you're still you know, so you can still

669
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: do it. Just because he was a big guy. Yeah,

670
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: and when you get to the five six hundre pound stage,

671
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 1: well then you're kind of fat and helpless, but you know,

672
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: it's three under pounds. You can still move pretty well,

673
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: I think, you know. So according to the okay, well

674
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: actually not according to this series, it's pretty well known.

675
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: John Holmes and Eddie Nash we're buddies. They loved to

676
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: do drugs together. Yeah, I mean John Hols like he

677
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: used Eddie because Eddie always had always had drugs, and

678
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: Eddie like John Hols because Holmes was a celebrity exactly.

679
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: And then it turned out Holmes might have been a

680
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: little bit of an anaconda. Yeah, yeah, he kind of

681
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: did choke the life of this whole situation because, um,

682
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: what happened here is that Holmes would buy coke from Nash,

683
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 1: but eventually he'd run out of credit. I mean, Nash

684
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: would give him credit, but you got to cut a

685
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: guy off at a certain point, and he did. And

686
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: it's at that point where Nash would no longer just

687
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: give him coke on credit that he started hanging out

688
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: with the Wonderland Gang. Most of the gang apparently didn't

689
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: really like Holmes. Uh it. I think it's Debel who

690
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: took pity on him and let him hang around and

691
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: run odd jobs for them in exchange for drugs. Yeah. Yeah,

692
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: so they they'd have him do stuff to get to

693
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: get drugs. But there are but there are stories, however,

694
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: the abuse that he took for what he did. Uh

695
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: Lonnius run. Lonnius didn't like him. He actually kind of

696
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: hated it. Sounds much like you know, because there are

697
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 1: there all these stories where they were, like we said,

698
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: they had parties of the house. People are coming and going,

699
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: and Lonnius would make Holmes pull out as Johnson on

700
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: command in the middle of a party just to show

701
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 1: it to people. You want to touch it. Go ahead

702
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: and touch it, check it out. Holmes was exceptionally proud

703
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: of his member, and so it probably wasn't that statistic

704
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: on anous part, because but there's there's a difference between

705
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 1: I'm I'm talking to you trying to make a drug

706
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: deal and you say, whip it out and show it

707
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: to the lady, say hey, wyt's you show it to everybody,

708
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: and saying hey show it now. The question who who

709
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: was actually in charge of the Wonderland Gang? So was

710
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: was the ringleader? He was kind of the man I'm

711
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: sorry I forgot her name, the woman who owned the house, Miller.

712
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't her, no, no, nor her boyfriend who It

713
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: was actually a dude who was in charge. Yes, absolutely,

714
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: actually the lady that owned the house. She was a

715
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: complete and total piece of work as well. She is

716
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: described as the most foul mouth heroine addict ever. She

717
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: was not a nice eight so it's it doesn't surprise

718
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: me that she fell in with this crowd. She was

719
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: very vicious, as apparently Lons was as well. Yeah, um, so,

720
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: so what's going on here is the Wonderland Gang? After

721
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: Nash says you you can't just buy coke on credit.

722
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 1: You gotta gotta pay me. And now Holmes is hanging

723
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: out with the Wonderland Gang. They send him out to

724
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 1: make a deal or to make a run of some kind.

725
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: I the details are sketchy, no, no surprise here. It's

726
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: basically I sent him out with a bag of coke

727
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: and he didn't anything, and the holes we lost it. Yeah,

728
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: he probably snort right. The whole thing went bad. And

729
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: they said, listen, you're gonna make it up to us

730
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: or we're gonna kill you. We're gonna we're gonna get

731
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 1: our money out of you one way or the other.

732
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: Bub And so what what freaking Holmes is brilliant plan

733
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: is is, Hey, let's up, Eddie. Nash had tons and

734
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: tons of drugs and money and jewelry, tons and all

735
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: kinds of things of value in his home. But here's

736
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: the thing about Nash. He was absolutely insane at this point.

737
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: The man had been doing drugs in such quantity that

738
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: he locked himself in his house. He would only do

739
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: business from his home. Uh. He He used to love

740
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: to walk around around in a robe and a speedo.

741
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: He was a paranoid. He was a sadist. He was

742
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: completely unhinged. If again, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back

743
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: to the movie reference earlier of Boogie Nights. If you've

744
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 1: watched that movie and you remember, there's a character named

745
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: Rahad Jackson. He's played Alfred molina Um and there's the

746
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: whole drug buying scene that goes south. That character is

747
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: based on Nash. Salute nut job drug dealer, like the

748
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: kind of guy that you just don't mess with, what

749
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: happens to your free basic and eat holes in your brain.

750
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's really too bad about Nash because he

751
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: was such a success story and he just again he

752
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: and he and Johnny Holmes were perfect for each other well,

753
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: but but Ni also did a lot of illicit things

754
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: from the very It wasn't like he was an upstanding

755
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: businessman who fell down slope now, but still it's just like,

756
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, for both him and Holmes, things

757
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: would have really been a lot better have they both

758
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: just not started. Yea. So here's here's according to the theory,

759
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: here's what goes down the Wonderland Gang as I said, says,

760
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: you need to make this up. He says, okay, let's

761
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: rob it, heady Nash. So what they do is they

762
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: send him. They send Holmes over to Nash's house under

763
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: the pretense of buying drugs with money that they've given him.

764
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: He goes over there and over the course of several hours,

765
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, he's he buys drug from Eddie nash On

766
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: with cash and then proceeds to do the drugs there,

767
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: which takes hours. While he's there, he sneakily unlocks a

768
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: sliding glass door in a bedroom and then he leaves.

769
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: That morning, the Wonderland Gang show up, so he goes

770
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: up there. In the evening, he goes back to their house.

771
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: The gang shows up at Nash's house that morning with

772
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: their badges. They come in through that sliding glass door

773
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: and they robbed Nash. They put Nash on his knees

774
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: and then on his belly, the same thing with dials.

775
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: They they've got him a gun pointsing where the cops?

776
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: Where's it all? At handcuff. I think they tied him up.

777
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: I think they tied him both up. But but they

778
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: robbed him and they robbed them of anywhere between a

779
00:45:54,160 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: hundred thousand to a million dollars worth of guns, cash, drug, jewelry.

780
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: And did I say drugs because there was lots of

781
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: drugs along with whatever else they thought they could fence. Now,

782
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: if the Wonderland Gang did this, and by the way,

783
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: they didn't kill anybody, I call that a major error

784
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: in judgment on their part. Yeah, that probably would have

785
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: been a thing to do. Because here's what happens is, uh,

786
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 1: Nash is flipping out furious about this, and he sends

787
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: Dials out to figure out who did it, who hit him,

788
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: and he wants to know. Like I said before, they

789
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: it's not as if they were wearing masks, they police badges,

790
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: but he just didn't know who they were. Dials goes

791
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 1: out and eventually he runs across John Holmes, who he knows.

792
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: Holmes surprisingly is or strangely is wearing a ring that

793
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: was stolen in the robbery. Yeah, that's that's that's such

794
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: a dumb move. Yeah, I'm sure he just found that

795
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: a convenient with that to hang onto it while I

796
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: was walking around trying to find a place to pawn it,

797
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: I imagine. And yeah, I want to again put this

798
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: in here. We've talked at length about this, but this

799
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: is still the theory. This is the story that is

800
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: believed by the l a p. D. We've been saying

801
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: a lot of this is if we know it truly happened.

802
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: We don't know that any of this happened. I just

803
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: realized that we were saying this with such conviction. So he,

804
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: according to the story, then what happens is Dials clocks.

805
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: I'm sure he clocked homes, but he grabs homes. They

806
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: drag him back to Nash's house. While Nash is screaming

807
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: and threatening at and threatening homes, Dials is beating the

808
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: living daylights out of him. This particular bit of the

809
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: story does have support, and that support comes from a

810
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: man by the name of Thorson. Thorson was Does you

811
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: guys both know who Liberaci was? He was a very

812
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: famous singer at the in the seventies and early eighties,

813
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 1: and he had a lover, Scott who was at Nash's house.

814
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 1: And is that the guy from behind the candle Labra Libaracci?

815
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: And I think he went back even earlier in the seventies.

816
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: But you're saying they were lovers, the Thorson and Liberacci, Yeah,

817
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: saying Libaracci was gay? Yes, yes, that is undeniably. Oh

818
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: my Jesus, you might need to rethink your seduction tactics. Cow,

819
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: it's all making send. Joe brings a woman over and

820
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 1: he plays Libaracci and she leaves. That guy was such

821
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: a player. He put this coat on the labra. That

822
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: was such a such a great dresser, and you know

823
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: he's always been my role model. Oh my god. So

824
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: Thorson and Liberaci had a thing going. But what you

825
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: need to understand about Scott Thorson is he was just

826
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: as deeply into drugs as the rest of him. He

827
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: was at Nash's house for at least a day on

828
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: a bender. He Liberacci eventually cut their relationship off because

829
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:31,919
Speaker 1: he was stealing Liberaci's stuff and us again make good friends. Yeah.

830
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: So so so that's that's where the there's this whole

831
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: backup of Nash was screaming and threatening and Dials was

832
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: beating the holy crap out of John Holmes and thinking, wow,

833
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: it's kind of a tackle area to wear that ring. Yeah. So,

834
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: according to this theory, eventually Holmes gives in and he

835
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: spills it all, and at that point Nash orders Dials

836
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 1: to go to the Wonderland House and take John Holmes

837
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: with him, and those two plus two other men go

838
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: to the house to quote unquote pay them back. They

839
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: they want to get the drugs and the money and

840
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: everything else has been stolen and give him a little

841
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: bit of revenge. Absolutely, the house itself had a buzzer

842
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: at the door. He had had an intercom buzzer. Steal

843
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: great door system was necessary. Holmes was totally necessary because

844
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: Holmes was the key to get in the door. According

845
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: to the theory, what happens is that as soon as

846
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: Holmes gets the door open, those guys rush in. Holmes

847
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: is held at gunpoint and then they run through the

848
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: house with pipes of Flaylan, killing four out of the

849
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 1: five people. They homes watching or at least watch part

850
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: of it, which is why his palm prints and fingerprints

851
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: were found at the scene. Possibly. So here's the thing

852
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: about the it's a palm print is what is found

853
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: of Holmes. And the palm print is listed in one

854
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: of two places, which is infuriating to me because it's

855
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: either it was on a wall or it was on

856
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 1: a footboard. I heard it was on a like a bedboard,

857
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: right that the footboard, the footboard of the bad not

858
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: the headboard, the footboard. But the problem is is that

859
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: you know what I've never found was it just a

860
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: palm print or was it the bloody palm print, Because

861
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: if it was a blood bloody palm print, I feel

862
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: like the case against him would have stuck. If it's

863
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: a regular print, the guy was in the house on

864
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: a regular basis. This is my problem with the the

865
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: L A p d. S theory is that if it

866
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: was a bloody handprint, how the hell did you not

867
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: get your ducks a row and enough to prove that

868
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: this guy was culpable. Well, no, you can't, really. I mean,

869
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: if this guy is if this guy has a story

870
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: that they held him at gunpoint, which by the way,

871
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: I don't believe they did. I think that that was

872
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: that was he was there, you know, probably maybe, but

873
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: I don't think it would have been necessary to hold

874
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: a gunpoint. He would have been just standing there terrified,

875
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: and he would have either tried to slip away or

876
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: just prayed that he wouldn't get killed. But you know,

877
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: there was no need to hold him a gunpoint. And plus,

878
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: by the way, Holmes had every reason to be angry

879
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: with the Wonderland Gang a dog, yeah they did. And

880
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: and also he actually dreamed up this operation of robberty Nash,

881
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 1: and they got away with a pile of drugs and

882
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: money and jewelry, and they hardly gave him anything. They

883
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: completely ripped him off. He had reason to be angry

884
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: with them. So I guess I think, Belie, even a

885
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: bloody palm print, just to circle back here, isn't that

886
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: much crazier. I mean, as we've described it, and as

887
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: we've maybe all watched on video, like, it was a

888
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 1: blood bath in there, and if he was there, it's

889
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 1: not unreasonable to assume that even at gunpoint, even forced

890
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: to watch parts of it, a bloody handprint, palm print

891
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: left there, like, that's not crazy, particularly if he was

892
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 1: held at gunpoint and they're like all right, get up,

893
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 1: and he, you know, puts his hand in blood and

894
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 1: puts it on the wall to help himself get or whatever.

895
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's not that doesn't prove culpability

896
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: to But the L a p. D. S case was

897
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: that because he was there and the story that they

898
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: had been told, he was the mastermind of the robbery

899
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: against Nash, which put him in a position of being

900
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: responsible for the deaths of these four people. Now let

901
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 1: me let me talk about where they got some of

902
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 1: that because we have talked we very briefly talked about

903
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: David Lynde. In the beginning, Lynn testified for the l

904
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 1: A p. D. And Lynde was his girlfriend, was the

905
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 1: first was the lady that was on the first floor?

906
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: Who was who the Barbara Richard the first one who

907
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,959
Speaker 1: was killed or likely if the first one who was killed. Yeah.

908
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: So here's the thing about lynd He was brought in.

909
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 1: I'm from memory. I want to say it was Lonnius

910
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: who brought him in. Lonnius and he had spent time

911
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: together in jail. They shared sell I think maybe, but

912
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: they knew each other from jail. He was brought in

913
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: to help them expand their drugs selling empire. He was

914
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: a biker drugs selling white supremacist guy. He was enforcer.

915
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 1: There was again the words of words of trying not

916
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: to say he wasn't a nice man and he is. Uh.

917
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: He wasn't at the house that night because he had

918
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: decided to go to a bar and was drinking and

919
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 1: then decided to take a hooker to a motel room

920
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: where they did drugs together. And there's a lot of

921
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: air quotes around what they did together. But drugs was

922
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: probably involved in at least that somebody who was a

923
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 1: drug addict might do drugs with a hooker. There might

924
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: also be things they were doing, but the point is

925
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: his girlfriend is at the house and he decided to

926
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: spend the night with a hooker getting loaded. I mean, well,

927
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: it kept him alive, but it's it's a gat. It

928
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: just kind of I'm I'm adding fuel to the fire

929
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: about the character of this guy. He was also believed

930
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: to have, previous to his time in Los Angeles, been

931
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: a a c I, a police informant. He only knew

932
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 1: so much about what happened at the house. He could

933
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: have given the story of what he knew. Let's say

934
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: that the hit on Nash's house really took place, he

935
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: was involved in it. He knew what happened, and he

936
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: could say that Holmes came up with the scheme. Whether

937
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: he did or not doesn't matter, but he could say that.

938
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: But then after that, he has no idea what happened

939
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: at the house because he was miles away in a

940
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: hotel room. And this the convenient that he removed himself

941
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: from the It's also very convenient that he was an informant,

942
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: and so he would actually know exactly what to tell

943
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: the cops to get a guy that he didn't like,

944
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: John Holmes, into a boatload of trouble. So maybe we

945
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 1: put a pin on that for a second, because I

946
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: think we have some more Nash styles homes stuff to

947
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: talk about. You're right, Devon, we we do have more.

948
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: But it's actually another theory. Well yeah, okay, so this

949
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: theory number two is an offshoot of theory number one.

950
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: We we talked about how the Wonderland Gang really treated

951
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: John Holmes like a like a dog, a piece of dirt.

952
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: They just they did whatever to him they wanted to

953
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: because they could. This theory is that this was not

954
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: only and the murders were not only an an act

955
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: of revenge for Nash and Dials, but also John Holmes.

956
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: In other words, he wasn't held at gun point through

957
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: this whole thing, but he actually took part. So he

958
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: was an active contributor in the assault and killing of

959
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:11,439
Speaker 1: four people and the brain damage of a fifth. Yeah.

960
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 1: You know, um, if I had been holes, it would

961
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: be kind of an attractive thing to do that. Maybe

962
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: not attractive, but you know it would be tempting. Oh yes,

963
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: to go to ask to go to act and say, hey,

964
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: I heard you got I heard you got robbed, and

965
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: I gotta say, I'm really sorry about this, but I

966
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: know these people over here and I told them about you,

967
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: and you're hidden safe and everything. I really feel bad.

968
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: I think it might have been them, you know, and

969
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: you know, so they could have been that. I don't

970
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: even think you'd have to go that far. I think

971
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: you could just say, hey, I think I know who

972
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: did it because they just gave me this ring. Does

973
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: this look familiar? Yeah, you could do that, so they

974
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: gave yeah, And then you don't have any kind of

975
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: personal connection to the original. You just say something like,

976
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, hey, you know these guys were asking questions

977
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: about you and stuff like this, and you know, and

978
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, there's all yeah, there's all sorts of

979
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: ways he could have actually played that gotten them murdered.

980
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: The hard the hard part about both of these theories

981
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: is that um as we talked about Scott Thornson, his

982
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: version of that night didn't come out for almost ten years.

983
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: After he cleaned up. He one day recalled this and

984
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 1: started telling people about it. Years later, Nash and Dials

985
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: would start recounting versions of this but those guys were

986
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 1: still in the drug business, and it was it would

987
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 1: behoove them to tell this story about how they had

988
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: brutally murdered four people in a house for screwing them

989
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: over on a drug deal. Well, it's actually a good

990
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: thing that to let people know that, let the world

991
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: know that you are not to be screwed with, because

992
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: if you show weakness in that, in that kind of environment,

993
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: then everybody comes to feed upon you. And you yeah,

994
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: it's exactly why he would tell everybody, Oh yeah, no,

995
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: well we showed up and we beat the holy hell

996
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: out of them, and and just you know, and they

997
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 1: always did it in these weird passing ways. They never

998
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: obviously they were smart enough to not say, oh yeah,

999
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: we killed those people. But oh yeah, there was this

1000
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: time we went to this house out Laurel Canyon and

1001
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: some stuff happened. Yeah it was bad. Yeah, so you

1002
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: should be you should treat us right, Yeah, Okay, probably

1003
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: probably a good idea. Okay, Um, let's let's move on

1004
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: to theory number three, which now we're gonna this is

1005
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: one of those theories where we're gonna take a complete

1006
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: and total turn away from the official version. We now

1007
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: have a completely different theory, and that theory is that

1008
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: there's a guy named Paul Kelly and uh he did

1009
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: it as a hit based on a bad drug deal.

1010
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: Funties for the Lulls, for the Raffels, these people, uh,

1011
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: these people seem to me there are probably plenty of

1012
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: people out there that wanted to kill them. Absolutely, even

1013
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: Eddie Nash and and Dials are the prime suspects. You know,

1014
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: I think there's lots of other potential susps well, And

1015
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 1: that's exactly It may be possible they were in no

1016
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: way involved in the murders. If you remember, in the

1017
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: beginning of this story or my description of the Wonderland Gang,

1018
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: we were talking about the fact that they made part

1019
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: of their money from robbing other drug dealers. Uh, well,

1020
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: apparently they would also rip them off in bad drug deals.

1021
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: Not too long before the murders, the gang had sold

1022
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: what they said was a pound of heroin to another

1023
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: drug deal or for two hundred and fifty dollars and

1024
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: it turned out to be baking. So well, now they

1025
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: cut it. It just turns out the cut was like, yeah,

1026
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: so this this dealer, he buys two hundred and fifty

1027
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: thousand dollars worth of drugs just to find out that

1028
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: they are completely and totally fake, And in his fury,

1029
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: turns around and does, not surprising what a lot of

1030
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: people would do, he puts a hit out on him.

1031
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: I couldn't I can't really blame. No, he puts out

1032
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: a contract and he says, you know, it's never said

1033
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: how much the contract is worth. Right, I'm just laughing

1034
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 1: because that's always like that train of thought to me

1035
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: is like so weird, where it's like, Wow, I just

1036
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: lost two thousand dollars. Better spend two dollars more to

1037
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: kill these people at no chance of ever recouping my costs.

1038
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm I'm frantically shaking my head. No, it's not two

1039
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: K for the hit. It's I'll pay brand ahead, whatever

1040
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: whatever it is. But but just like just like with

1041
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: Nash if if I, if you screw me, and I'm

1042
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: willing to pay another three grand per head, And so

1043
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: I just paid fifteen thousand dollars. But you're whacked and

1044
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: I'm still alive, and nobody else is gonna mess with me.

1045
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: I recognize. That's why we took the break, is because

1046
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: we had to find the replacement. Joe but I'm just

1047
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,919
Speaker 1: saying it doesn't make sense to me, Steve. I don't

1048
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: understand like why somebody would be like, Wow, I just

1049
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: got screwed all this money. I know, I'll spend a

1050
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: bunch more money to get this back. Instead of going

1051
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: back and trying to steal from them, you're trying to

1052
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: get it back. Yeah, drugs and logic do not mix.

1053
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: I don't. Drug dealers in logic sometimes mix, rarely only

1054
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: in certain elections. But yeah, you gotta you gotta look

1055
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 1: at it this way too, is that these people have

1056
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 1: ripped you off and disrespected you, and it's definitely for

1057
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,919
Speaker 1: a lot of people would be worth the extra money

1058
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: to kill them. I do like the No Joe. Yeah, yeah,

1059
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: that's yeah. This is a better clone than the last one. Okay, well,

1060
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: and that's all that all makes sense. So, according to

1061
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: this theory, there is a guy out there whose name

1062
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: was Paul Kelly. And by the way, I tried to

1063
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: find Paul Kelly information on this Paul Kelly Kelly, I know,

1064
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 1: I couldn't find any reporting on him. But according to

1065
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: this theory, this guy took the contract. Um, it turns

1066
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: out he must have been, you know, one of the

1067
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: jillion l A drug dealers at the time, and that

1068
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: giant pond of cocaine fish um. But I couldn't find anything.

1069
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: But according to the theory is that he went ahead

1070
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 1: and he took the contract and he executed it, and

1071
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: he swooped in and he got his the seven pounds

1072
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: of flesh that this this two fifty dollar rip off

1073
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: dealer wanted. Now, I know that people are gonna be

1074
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: screaming at their computers or iPhones or whatever saying, but Steve,

1075
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: the problem is that doesn't explain John Holmes's palm print,

1076
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: except if we move into the next theory, it may

1077
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: be kind of does because if let's let's let's go

1078
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: ahead and let's say that both sets of theories that

1079
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: we talked about so far are sort of right. In

1080
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: other words, the whole um, the whole Kelly part of

1081
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: it happened first. So Paul Kelly shows up, he kills everybody.

1082
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Holmes has been picked up by Dials

1083
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: and got the holy crap beat out of him by

1084
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: hit by Dials and Nash and Holmes finally gives usays, fine,

1085
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: it's the Wonderland Gang. Here's their house. But By the

1086
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: time Dials and Homes and the other two guys get there,

1087
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 1: Paul Kelly has come and gone and done his deed,

1088
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: at which point Dials is saying, Okay, hell, I gotta

1089
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 1: find my boss's product. I gotta find my boss's money

1090
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: and his stuff, and Dials could be the one that

1091
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: is responsible for turning the place completely upside down. Totally.

1092
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely could be that it was both sets happened at

1093
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: the same time. It's entirely possible. I could see where

1094
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: you could, like, you can make kind of a Guy

1095
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: Ritchie movie out of this different timeline. I would like

1096
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 1: I would like to see Guy Ritchie tackle the Wonderland murders.

1097
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: I think that Tarantino of this is probably more apt,

1098
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 1: So that would be that the blood level in that

1099
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 1: would be probably accurate, the most accurate. Ritchie doesn't really

1100
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: go for the gritty. But but I can see the

1101
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: Guy Ritchie split timeline. Everything made something trap mind good call.

1102
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: This is like four rooms to me. Yeah, so we

1103
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: have one more theory, but god, okay, yeah, we're not

1104
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 1: done there. Um, there's one more theory, which I admit

1105
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: I made. This last one we talked about up in

1106
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 1: my own mind. And I'm gonna make this last one up,

1107
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: which is that if indeed the Wonderland Gang had knocked

1108
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: over Nash and they had taken all of this stuff,

1109
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: they needed to move a lot of stuff. They needed

1110
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 1: to move drugs, they needed to move jewelry, they needed

1111
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:19,560
Speaker 1: to move guns. They need to get rid of it all.

1112
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: So they're gonna be putting out feelers, which cause a

1113
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: lot of chatter. You know. The people who were in

1114
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 1: those areas, they're like, oh, that's crazy. This house. The

1115
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: guys from this house just asked me about getting rid

1116
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: of all of these jewels. That's weird. They just asked

1117
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: me about getting rid of all these guns, to get

1118
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: rid of a whole bunch of quay louds. Yeah, and

1119
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,720
Speaker 1: so they really Yeah, when when people come to realize

1120
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 1: you've got a pile of cash and drugs and stuff,

1121
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah you don't. You're not You're not clever about it now,

1122
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, deal with one thing at a time. You

1123
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: start asking all I want to get rid of it

1124
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:52,479
Speaker 1: all just as fast as possible as a bunch of money.

1125
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, oh yeah we got money.

1126
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: We can make change for a hundred grand, no big deal. Yeah,

1127
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: although that's gonna draw attention. The flies are going to

1128
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: start coming in, and now it's time to come in

1129
01:07:05,160 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 1: and like take all that Athough, I tend to kind

1130
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: of think that somebody would have come in with just

1131
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 1: some guys and some guns and just robbed them rather

1132
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: than beating them to death with pipes more likely. That's

1133
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: why I don't really like this one. Well, the thing is, though,

1134
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 1: is um so everybody in that house. Uh, they were

1135
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: heroin addicts. And the thing about heroin addicts is that

1136
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: when they get high, they're not active. They're very inactive.

1137
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: So you think I'm gonna come in, I'm gonna hold

1138
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: these people up. I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, just

1139
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 1: tie them up and stick them in a corner and

1140
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 1: we're going to hold monitor and while we look through

1141
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: the house and try to find stuff or hey, how

1142
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 1: convenient they are all so passed out, they have no

1143
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: idea we're here and we can take a bunch of

1144
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: time to rouse them up and get them together. Or

1145
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: I could just club the whole only crap out of

1146
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: them and maybe they maybe they're done with it. You know.

1147
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 1: Actually there's an interesting thing and that is if you

1148
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: watch TV. In the movies, there's this whole idea that

1149
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: you can cock somebody in the head and just knock

1150
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: them out. And what happens is you hit him on

1151
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,919
Speaker 1: the head, you either piss them off or you maybe

1152
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 1: knock them out or you kill them. Um, it's like

1153
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: you know, and more likely you're going to kill them

1154
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,640
Speaker 1: or piss them off. But the level, the level of

1155
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:30,200
Speaker 1: the beatings that the it was pretty savage. This wasn't

1156
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: a I'm going to bunk Ferrell else out, you know.

1157
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: This was I would like to see the inside of

1158
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: your skull, each and every one if you Well, here's

1159
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: the unfortunate truth is that if you're five feet away

1160
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 1: from another house and they're used to hearing kind of

1161
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:55,360
Speaker 1: drug fueled parties, if they hear gunfire, they're probably still

1162
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: going to call the call. Yeah, but if you beat

1163
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,640
Speaker 1: some people to death, I'm really sorry, But if you

1164
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: beat some people to death, and even if one of

1165
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: them is screaming, the neighbors aren't going to call the cops. Yeah,

1166
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:09,759
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that if you hold them at gunpoint

1167
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 1: and tie them up and tell them to keep shut

1168
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: up or they're gonna get killed, it just makes more

1169
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: sense to me to do it that way. I mean,

1170
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: it makes more sense, but I also don't that's that's

1171
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: a lot more work. I think that. But the reason

1172
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 1: I think is is robbery is one thing, but these

1173
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,720
Speaker 1: were savage murders. It was not like it was like

1174
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 1: there was a revenge factor here. There's also I mean

1175
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 1: there's it's there's the total possibility that this was a

1176
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: long term back and forth. Right they don't know about

1177
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 1: the Wonderland Gang had been robbing people and as far

1178
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 1: as we know, they had been getting robbed back, and

1179
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: it had been this back and forth kind of thing,

1180
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 1: and that finally this was the kind of culmination of

1181
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: that where people were like, I am so freaking fed

1182
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 1: up these people at gunpoint, the combing back. I'm just

1183
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: like whatever, I'm just going to Yeah, I'm gonna take

1184
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:03,560
Speaker 1: a pipe to their head. And there were lots of

1185
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: people who had a motive, particularly like you know, I've

1186
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 1: never been so high on drugs that I've thought this

1187
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 1: is like violence is a good idea, but it's there.

1188
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 1: That's not also, but that's a long spiral for most people,

1189
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 1: and you know, to say like this will put an

1190
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: end to that, maybe that's what was happening maybe or

1191
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 1: maybe even you know, they hit them over the head

1192
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 1: once and they were like ha ha, and and I'm

1193
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: I'm more inclined to believe the one of the latter theories.

1194
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: These last two theories. I mean, like we said the

1195
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: l A P. D. S theory at the first couple

1196
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: of theories, those are the most popular. Um. John Holmes

1197
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: is first wife. He was married multiple times, but his

1198
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: first wife came out years later and wrote an autobiography

1199
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 1: in which she at that point talks about the fact

1200
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 1: that how somewhere between the day of to two days

1201
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 1: after the Wonderland murders, John showed up at her house

1202
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 1: covered in blood and she put him in a hot

1203
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 1: tub to clean him a bathtub of hot water, nor

1204
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,320
Speaker 1: the hot tub a tub of hot water to clean him,

1205
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,639
Speaker 1: At which point he was freaking out. She said, tell

1206
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: me what's going on, and he recounted some of what

1207
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: had happened. But a lot of people who have no

1208
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 1: Holmes have also said that her her book is a

1209
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:25,560
Speaker 1: lot of fiction. Um, I mean, there's just there's you know,

1210
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: it's hard for anything that comes out of the mouth

1211
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: of John Holmes. I have a problem He told lies constantly,

1212
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 1: is his his autobiography. He didn't write a book, but

1213
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 1: he told stories about his past and it was just

1214
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: all lies. The guy was a total skis I guess

1215
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:41,799
Speaker 1: you know, for me, there may be some mill ground

1216
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 1: of like he wasn't this kind of Hollywood hero where

1217
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: he was like, I'm going to tell these guys to

1218
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: get revenge. I guess that's not a hero, right, anti

1219
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:52,760
Speaker 1: hero whatever, Yeah, that's definitely not the hero. And then

1220
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: he came in and helped. But there's also that possibility

1221
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 1: of like he told these guys, hey, these are the

1222
01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 1: people who ripped you off, and they're like cool and

1223
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 1: helped him, and he was like, well, uh no, and

1224
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 1: they're like, but you obviously helped him and he was like, no,

1225
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 1: I didn't, and they were like, no, you did, and

1226
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,760
Speaker 1: took him with them to witness this thing, and he

1227
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:16,320
Speaker 1: was probably pretty traumatized by that, and you know, coming

1228
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: down from drugs and like seeing all of these different

1229
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: horrific things, and he could have been really traumatized and

1230
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: and almost a victim almost right. There's some culpability issues there.

1231
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 1: There's some like really gut instincts like he was responsible

1232
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: for this but at the same time, but you know

1233
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:37,720
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, I get where you're coming from. My

1234
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:43,679
Speaker 1: problem with making that kind of statement involving John Holmes

1235
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: is that he quite obviously didn't give a rats ass

1236
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: about anybody else's life but his own, because I mean,

1237
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 1: you know, Holmes died and sure because he had aged

1238
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 1: and that that's what he complications from that killed him.

1239
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 1: When he was tested positive that jackass was still in

1240
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 1: the business and didn't stop performing. He didn't tell anybody.

1241
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 1: Now the word got out in l A. So you

1242
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: just want to Europe, Yeah, you don't care about anybody

1243
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 1: else's life, which is different with him being so traumatized

1244
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 1: by seeing other people die because he apparently didn't care. Okay,

1245
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: but let's be really, really honest here for a second.

1246
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: There's a huge difference between being responsible from somebody dying

1247
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 1: for AIDS or maybe contracting AIDS or HIV to seeing

1248
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 1: someone beat to death with a pipe in front. That's

1249
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: a huge difference. But I will agree with that. But

1250
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:43,600
Speaker 1: but my point is he obviously had no remorse, and

1251
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 1: that's I know. I'm not saying that he had some

1252
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 1: kind of remorse. I'm saying he could have been that.

1253
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: You know, he could have been trying to play this

1254
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 1: like both sides of the aisle sort of thing and

1255
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 1: it backfired on him, and they're like, all right, well

1256
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,360
Speaker 1: you're going to watch this thing that you're responsible for.

1257
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: And he had to watch and he was like, God happened,

1258
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, and you know he watched that,

1259
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:07,720
Speaker 1: and that's traumatic no matter what. Like, I don't think

1260
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:12,680
Speaker 1: there's a human in this world who, like you get

1261
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 1: used to it, but like for your first time. I

1262
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 1: don't think there's a human in this world who the

1263
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,759
Speaker 1: first time they see that happen is like, oh God,

1264
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: what right? And so I think there's there's some middle

1265
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: ground there in terms of like he could be totally

1266
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 1: responsible for both things but still be really traumatized and

1267
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:34,439
Speaker 1: trying to kind of cover himself, you know. But I

1268
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 1: don't want any send him because I think he's a

1269
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: total ski. Yeah it's time for me. I know who

1270
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 1: did it? It was yeah, no, And it wasn't choopy, no,

1271
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 1: it was I mean, this was an upscale This was

1272
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: just uncoke. Yeah. Yeah, but there was an upscale, very

1273
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:03,600
Speaker 1: nice neighborhood and they were bringing down the property values association.

1274
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:06,799
Speaker 1: I think it was the neighbors. But I mean, seriously,

1275
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 1: if I if I was living at a nice expensive

1276
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: house like that, and I was like really tight close

1277
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 1: to them and everything and listen to this crap all

1278
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, I would seriously consider murdering

1279
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 1: them myself. I really. While I enjoy that thought, I

1280
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 1: also think that these were some scary people and that

1281
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 1: you would very quickly say I could just see you know,

1282
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:28,200
Speaker 1: I can see myself in my neighborhood. There's been a

1283
01:15:28,240 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: time or two that I rushed out my door, like

1284
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 1: I am going to take care of this whoa high

1285
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,439
Speaker 1: crazy town. I'm I'm sorry. I was just coming out

1286
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:41,080
Speaker 1: to get the mail. I'm gonna go back in my Yeah. Well,

1287
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, but it's always there's always a possibility it

1288
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 1: was the neighbors. I think I don't think we should

1289
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 1: totally discount that. Nope. Yeah, Well, if you have theories

1290
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 1: on this, you are more than welcome to share them

1291
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 1: with us. The place that you cannot share them is

1292
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: our website, but you can check out our research about

1293
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: this episode on our website. You can obviously listen to

1294
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 1: any this episode or any of our past episodes there

1295
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 1: as well. Um, on the website, you will see the

1296
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 1: links on the right hand side for merch or for

1297
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:18,640
Speaker 1: supporting the show. All of that is right there. So

1298
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 1: merch is gonna be shirts or coffee mugs or phone cases.

1299
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 1: We've added some new stuff there as I think we're

1300
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 1: going to add. No, no, we are not going to

1301
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 1: add big dolls. We're not going to be doing that. Um.

1302
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:39,160
Speaker 1: If you want to support the show, there is those

1303
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:42,520
Speaker 1: options which are like I said, there is the merchandise.

1304
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:45,560
Speaker 1: There is going to be PayPal. So if you'd like

1305
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: to do a one time donation to the show, you

1306
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 1: are more than welcome to do it there. Or if

1307
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 1: you'd like to do a recurring donation to the show

1308
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:56,760
Speaker 1: or support of the show, that would be done through Patreon.

1309
01:16:57,280 --> 01:17:01,440
Speaker 1: The address for that is patreon dot com slash thinking sideways,

1310
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:06,080
Speaker 1: where you can pledge a certain amount per episode, so

1311
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 1: be aware though it is per episode. So if you

1312
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:10,839
Speaker 1: want to do a buck, that's a buck every episode.

1313
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 1: So if you want to do a Hunter bucks, that

1314
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 1: would be a Hunter bucks in episodes. And by the way,

1315
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: to everybody who has been giving us support, we so

1316
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:22,680
Speaker 1: appreciate that you have no idea how much easier. That

1317
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:25,600
Speaker 1: makes things for us. Uh. The other way that you

1318
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 1: could support the show is by rating the show. If

1319
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 1: you're on iTunes, do go ahead and take the time

1320
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: to leave a comment and a rating. Yeah. If you've

1321
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 1: got an issue or a concern with something that we've said,

1322
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:44,080
Speaker 1: or you think that we're uh inferring. Wait, I can't

1323
01:17:44,120 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 1: say infer Uh it's something that we're saying, then go

1324
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:50,719
Speaker 1: ahead and get ahold of us through some other means,

1325
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:54,760
Speaker 1: because we can't have a conversation via comments. Um. But

1326
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 1: whatever streaming service you use, because we're also on streaming services,

1327
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: you're more than welcome to subscribe there. And if those

1328
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: have a comment or a rate system, a review system,

1329
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 1: use that. We totally appreciate that. I know, God it's

1330
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:11,880
Speaker 1: Google Play added that yet I don't know. We're on

1331
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 1: everybody at this point, Google Play, Stitcher, whoever. Um, we

1332
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 1: are on social media, so we are on Facebook, where

1333
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 1: we've got the Facebook page and the Facebook group. We

1334
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 1: are on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways, where Devin

1335
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,799
Speaker 1: tweets lots of strange pictures that she has put filters

1336
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:33,000
Speaker 1: on to totally mask her appearance. So if you want

1337
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: to know not what Devon looks like. Please check that

1338
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 1: out if you want to know what Devon looks like

1339
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 1: as a pineapple or a wolf. Yeah that's a good Yeah, Yeah,

1340
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,720
Speaker 1: that's exactly what you're gonna get there. We have a subreddit,

1341
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,560
Speaker 1: so if you are a Reddit user, there's a subreddit

1342
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:51,880
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. And the last, but not least, the most

1343
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 1: popular method of getting ahold of us to have an

1344
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 1: actual conversation would be email. We do the email email

1345
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:04,200
Speaker 1: is the Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. Feel

1346
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 1: free to send in feedback, comments, story suggestions, general praise

1347
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:14,919
Speaker 1: or rage. Be aware. We will respond to all emails,

1348
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: but it doesn't eventually. Can sometimes take days. You'd be

1349
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 1: amazed how many, how quickly they pile up. So we

1350
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 1: are not ignoring you. If it takes a couple of days.

1351
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:27,960
Speaker 1: We actually feel bad I have. I'm like, oh god,

1352
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 1: it's still there. I'm freaking out. It's stressing me out, man.

1353
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:37,360
Speaker 1: So we will write you back and tell you tell

1354
01:19:37,439 --> 01:19:40,639
Speaker 1: us how much you love us. Yeah, did I forget anything?

1355
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,800
Speaker 1: Ah you did, but I don't know what I forgot

1356
01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:49,400
Speaker 1: it too. Okay, Well, I I appreciate everybody staying with

1357
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 1: us through this long and kind of haphazard, haphazard drawn out.

1358
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,760
Speaker 1: It's just it's been a big episode and uh, we

1359
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:02,400
Speaker 1: appreciate all of that and dealing with every freaking pun

1360
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: we've made. So it was hey, guys, just I want

1361
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 1: to point out was mostly all you guys making the

1362
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 1: bad jokes. Okay, well we're gonna zip this one up.

1363
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, the mystery is not is not even is.

1364
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 1: The mystery is why didn't somebody kill them sooner? Frankly, anyway,

1365
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 1: that sounds a little pushing phraseology and phraseology. Phraseology, Yeah,

1366
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,280
Speaker 1: it's just like ameology.