00:00:00
Speaker 1: The Quest Love Show is a production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the Quest Love Show. I'm your host Quest Love. You know in past episodes, I've been talking about a lot of metaphysical woulu talk.

00:00:32
Speaker 1: Pretty sure that.

00:00:33
Speaker 2: Unless you're very like Spain, a brand new to this show, you know that I've been working on this Earth Would and Fire documentary for the last almost two years. By this taping, it would have been on HBO earlier in June, and it's entitled Earth Woulden Fire to be Celestial versus That's the Weight of the World.

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Speaker 1: Why such a long title, because you know me well.

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Speaker 2: One of the most important subjects and voices in that particular documentary about Earth Wooden Fire is with us today. He's the Grammy Award winning inductee into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and the Songwriters Hall of Fame, and pretty much from the early seventies he was the drummer, percussionist, one of its vocalists songwriters. In addition, he's produced for other acts included Temptations, Howard Hewitt, Blue Magic, so many more. And he has done us the honor of making us a stop on his promotur for his brand new book entitled Life and Harmony with Earth Wood and Fire. And I had the privilege of putting the forward to this book. I suggest you all get it. A lot of tippets in there. What can I say? Man, I am talking to one and only my first drummer on the show.

00:01:52
Speaker 1: Get no, no, you got that? Wait?

00:01:55
Speaker 2: Since since the Quest Love Show, since this iteration of my podcast, I've had what like at least six bass players, A lot of bass players, not one drummer.

00:02:05
Speaker 1: See how I manifested. I thank you, I thank you. I'm honored.

00:02:09
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna ask you, what was your first musical memory in life? Your first memory of music?

00:02:16
Speaker 1: Well, there's a couple. There's a couple, but the very first one is my father brought home an album entitled Benny Goodman Live at the Brussels World's Fair nineteen fifty eight. Okay, And on that I began to listen to this tune called Sing Sing Sing Sing Yeah. And the drummer at that time with Benny Goodman was Roy Burns. Okay. Roy would later on and I wouldn't meet him and tell him this story. I would meet Roy much later on at the Nam show because he started the Aquarius drum Head Company. Was him? That was him. I did not know this, yes, and so that was my first memory. Okay, going back to like vinyl. But then my first live event was myself.

00:03:02
Speaker 2: My buddy Arthur Copper, who I went to elementary school and we always played in bands, went to a James Brown concert and I can tell you the date was January first, nineteen sixty six, at the Los Angeles Sports Arena.

00:03:16
Speaker 1: You saw Prime James three drum sets on stage. I was messed up.

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Speaker 2: What was that like for you? I was blown away? I said, first off, why would you need three drum sets?

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Speaker 1: You know? But madam, it's just such a powerful presentation, you know, And so of course that I maintained my interest in James Brown from that point forward. You know, I never missed a concert. But those are my early music memories.

00:03:39
Speaker 2: So your second generation musician, Your parents were well, my mother.

00:03:43
Speaker 1: Was a vocalist, not professionally. My father was a lyricist, not professionally. So I suppose that's where I got my songwriting talent from. What was it about the drums that called you? Like? Why did you choose the drums? Or do you play other instruments. No, no, no, no, I don't play any other instruments. You know what, I don't know if any of us can say what it is about that particular instrument that pulls you in. It's just they noticed, my parents noticed that I would sit in front of the TV when various variety shows would come on, like say maybe Ed Sullivan, and I would just sit there and just get into this kind of thing. And so they finally got me some sticks, and I kept until that Christmas when we got that snare drum under the Christmas tree and I started a whole thing. But I don't know what it was, or answer your question, I don't know what it was. It was just one of those things. Another musical memory the first time my father took me downtown to the Southern California Music Company and I walked in. First off, there was all these brass instruments, and back then manufacturers were using lacquer, and you could smell the lacker and when you walked into a music store.

00:04:56
Speaker 2: That lacker was all over the place. And I remember the stink. Remember that smell.

00:05:01
Speaker 1: So that's a that's a that's oh Man prime memory.

00:05:04
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely were you born in southern California.

00:05:08
Speaker 1: Born and raised twenty eighth and Hobart. I'll go back to the regional fatburger. You wouldn't know about that. We'll talk about that later, Okay.

00:05:14
Speaker 2: Tell me all right, so tell me about life in south central back then.

00:05:18
Speaker 1: Let's define what you're calling south central, because some people would say, well, east of Main Street and then south of say Century would be south central. Okay. I came up on the west side. I came up on like ninetieth and eighth Avenue, and that's why I wound up going to high school in Inglewood. I graduated from Mount Berner Junior High School, which is now called Johnny Cochran Junior High School in sixty six, okay, and we moved to Inglewood ninetieth and eighth Avenue and the Forum was just being built. Okay. I remember seeing those concrete forums that go up the side of the building. They were laying out on the ground. I was like, man, what are they going to build here? Looked it was a form. And then one of my greatest moments ever was to get my parents into the forum. And we were selling it out five nights in the roll so wow. But grew up in LA and yes, was a fan of fat burgers.

00:06:11
Speaker 2: Yes, so again my you know, I was worn in the seventies, so of course, you know when we hear of South central Los Angeles and all of sudden you hear the civil unrest, year of gang activity.

00:06:25
Speaker 1: And whatnot, Like was it like that?

00:06:30
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you were a young teen in the sixties and the Wats riots.

00:06:36
Speaker 1: That's what changed everythinkly, I distinctly remember the Watch riots. Tell me about it. I mean, where we were, the rioting was not heavity. It was just sporadic, you know, breakouts here and there. It was very heavy going on in South central And the thing that blew my mind was one evening, summer evening, We're just sitting out on the front porch and an army tank came rolling down.

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Speaker 2: Army tanks were not something you saw on the street. You saw them in movies.

00:07:04
Speaker 1: And it blew my mind. Sat man, it's a real army tank going down the street. And then at that time, my older brother, who retired from LAPD as a lieutenant, was in the police academy at that time, getting ready to go into the police force. But it was a crazy time man and then you know, hey, still today, we're trying to do the best we can out here.

00:07:24
Speaker 2: How did that personally affect you in the neighborhood after nineteen sixty five.

00:07:30
Speaker 1: Actually, it didn't really affect me. I mean, you know, we were aware that there was some trouble out on the south end of the city. It didn't really affect me. You know, you had your head on a swivel of course everywhere you went. But did you go out much or were you more of a homebody or well, you know what, Actually, I've always been mostly a homebody. Okay, I'm quite happy just when.

00:07:55
Speaker 2: Like when I come off the road, I'm quite happy just being at home, I see, you know, and just hanging out. Okay, So I know about the master's children, but like, how did you interact with bands back then? How important were bands back then in the neighborhood.

00:08:11
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, bands in the neighborhood. That's a you know, that's another movie. Bands in the neighborhood.

00:08:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was very important coming up because that's how you got to, you know, learn about the other cats in the neighborhood who were playing maybe your same instrument, if not, you know, And that was the network that you developed early on that you would probably keep for the rest of your life, you know, And so you would bounce around from band to band, and I certainly did until I wound up with the Master's children at Maverick's Flat, which was a big club in the sixties on crenchat Boulevard and Baldwin Hills area. So back then, was it fairly typical that one out of three people knew how to play a musical instrument.

00:08:58
Speaker 1: That's an interesting stat one out of I don't know.

00:09:01
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely know that the idea of a musician. I was told Nixon's budget cut in seventy three suddenly all those things were taken out of schools. So in your schooling, was it required that you learned how to play an instrument?

00:09:19
Speaker 1: It was not required, Okay, you could learn to play if you wish to learn to play. And so in my elementary school, in the fourth grade, I was already in an orchestra playing drums. Okay. Now today, try and find an orchestra in an elementary school. You can't. Where is it? You won't find it. So I was introduced very early on, and I took lessons very early on. As a matter of fact, I took my first drum lesson in April of nineteen fifty nine. I believe that's the date.

00:09:52
Speaker 2: Yes, those same books like Syncopation for the Modern Drummer and Stick.

00:09:56
Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't turned one of those books yet. I would discover those books with a much better teacher later on when I got to Grant's Music Center in La No. It started a snare drum method book by a drummer brother named Haskell Harr. You can still find his books. But anyway, that's how I started. And then you know, I just started playing around the neighborhood doing all that. And then finally I found this place called Grant's Music Center, and this is where all the cats were coming to study and network and get gigs and stuff like that. Henry Grant owned it, and that's where I wound up with probably the greatest teacher ever for me, Clarence Johnston, who also taught Raymond Pounds, Ah Stevie's got Yeah, there you go, Raymond Pounds and Clayton Cameron. Oh really, we were the three that Clarence had that went out there and did something. It was because I saw Raymond playing with the Grants big band and swinging and he's sitting swinging, going.

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Speaker 2: Higgy, get any bitch bach. I was like, whoa wait a minute. And I went to him and asked, I said, man, where are you getting this stuff? Man?

00:11:09
Speaker 1: It's Grants music? I said, okay, fine, and I went and signed up. And I spent man three or four years with Clarence Johnston. That's how you got your jazz shop. Oh, absolutely, because you gotta look Jim Chapin's Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer. Yes, you know you got to play in that book. Very familiar, Yes, very familiar with it, you know. Okay, so I'm a credit head liner. Note head Were.

00:11:33
Speaker 2: There any other notable musicians that will wind up being your peers years later that you ran into when you guys were young teenagers in the sixties. No, besides Raymond Towns and you know what. Not off the top of my head. Okay, of course that may. I mean, we may come back around to that. I mean, okay, So in starting a band, what's required, Like, how.

00:11:57
Speaker 1: Do you know which song sad? Like?

00:12:00
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's a fake book for James Brown or you get together with the guys for the first time. You just kind of sit around and you jam. You're just playing anything.

00:12:13
Speaker 1: It might be a funk jam, it could be a straight ahead jazz jam.

00:12:17
Speaker 2: It could be anything. And you see how that feels. And what you're looking for and what you're testing for is the chemistry amongst the musicians.

00:12:27
Speaker 1: How does this bass player feel? You're thinking this to yourself, but it feels pretty good. What is a guitar player? Okay? What is he? Okay? The keyboard is what is he doing? And you're checking all this out because as a drummer, you're hearing it all. You're sitting back there going okay. So you're looking for chemistry because that, in the end is going to be the bottom line, the chemistry amongst the players. That to me is what makes it's a given that all these guys can play, right. But see, all all great musicians can't play together. Oh yeah, I hate one great musicians are together.

00:13:06
Speaker 2: Okay, it's like all star gaming right right now, All great.

00:13:10
Speaker 1: Musicians cannot play together.

00:13:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you got to get that ego stuff out the way right, you know, gotch So what you're looking for is great musicianship, great attitude, great chemistry, because at the end of the day, it's going to be the chemistry that carries the band through if you can.

00:13:26
Speaker 1: Get through the rest of that stuff.

00:13:28
Speaker 2: In the mid sixties, when you're a teenager, is jazz the most likely destination you want to wind up with? Like I know that for a lot of the sixty musicians I talk to, they kind of look down on pop music, like Motown's just toy music or bubblegum music or.

00:13:46
Speaker 1: The Beatles or whatever. Well, because I came up listening to R and B and most of the R and B stations, although there was a twenty LA had the first ever twenty four hour jazz station KBCA one oh five point one, okay, he said, and his best. But I grew up listening to a lot of R and B. So it wasn't that I was growing up. I never had a thought of saying, well, professionally, I want to be a jazz musician. I knew I was going to be with an R and B.

00:14:13
Speaker 2: Type of situation because that's what I was listening to mostly. But I had a deep appreciation for the jazz side of things. So before your destiny was determined, who did you imagine at fifteen or sixteen, man, if I could play with blah blah blah, like who who are you aiming for? As a young drummer teenager, I thought that as a young drummer, being able to play with like Freddie Hubbard would have been interesting.

00:14:44
Speaker 1: Oh surviving Freddy, I thought. If you're familiar with.

00:14:51
Speaker 2: Man, I thought that before he had his strokes, I would have loved to have played with Keith Jarrett. Wow, because the trio configuration is my favorite configuration. I just give me drums, bass and piano and we'll create the stuff. Gotcha, there's enough there to create some stuff. Okay, you know it's all about your imagination. So yeah, those two for sure. One big band. Jiro Wilson's a big band, all right, So you definitely want it. Because Zero was local and I could go see him.

00:15:22
Speaker 1: So jazz was your That was a good destination point for you. Well, it was a good destination point, but it's not needless to say it's not where, not where I wound up and not necessarily where I was trying to aim.

00:15:37
Speaker 2: But also sort of I mean, you know, but I made sure I studied it. You guys had chops, you know, I studied it. Clarence made sure that Raymond and I and Clayton could play some straight ahead stuff.

00:15:48
Speaker 1: Got you?

00:16:01
Speaker 2: Okay, So tell me about the legendary Mavericks Flats. I'm sorry, I say this always over Mavericks Flats. That's the rural juror at Mavericks Flats. Actually it's Mavericks Flat. Mavericks Flat, Mavericks Flat.

00:16:16
Speaker 1: Okay. One. Where was it located? On forty two twenty five Crenshaw Boulevard, just south of Stoker on Crenshaw, Okay, on the west side of the street. Now, what period is your Mavericks Flat? That's sixty eight, sixty nine seventy. That's what I'm playing every weekend at the club.

00:16:37
Speaker 2: Okay, So can you just give me a typical run through? All right, let's say it's March of nineteen seventy.

00:16:45
Speaker 1: Uh is one?

00:16:47
Speaker 2: Is Mavericks Flat like the spot I want to go to if you're if you hit La, you want to hit Mavericks Flat. Yes, okay, it was one of It was probably the hottest black club.

00:16:58
Speaker 1: Going. And there were other clubs. There were other clubs on Crenshaw, but they just didn't have the attraction.

00:17:04
Speaker 2: Who would play there. Oh Man Parliament. Funkadelic would come through there. So if you're an established black act, you could come through this. How large is the oh? It would only hold about although John would make sure that Bad Boy was packed legally about two hundred people maybe okay, maybe not that I'm maybe over because there was an upstairs on the downstairs, but all the entertainment took place downstairs. Now, DJ culture wasn't a thing yet, right, so all music had to be provided either a jukebox.

00:17:38
Speaker 1: And a band. There was a juke box booth. He had his turntables, and he would play music throughout the club.

00:17:45
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, so even if bands weren't on stage, there was always always so absolutely yes, yes, okay, And I would assume that you would have to be good in order to get there. I'm only asking you this once because I believe weave in our interviews is I forgot who it was, but somebody mentioned that when the original pre classic Look, when I say Earth went in fire, I mean you guys. So the band that was Earth went in fire before you guys, right, the Warner Brothers band. Yeah, the Warner Brothers band. I heard that they were met with indifference because they were a little too free jazz and not enough.

00:18:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think part of it was the look they had. Okay, so it wasn't you that night or no, no, no, okay, So what I'm going it's what I was hearing that I think was Bob Caballo, one of our managers at the time, Till Maurice like the idea, but you got to get some younger cats, got you, okay, you know, got to go with a whole nother look because these cats were in fezes and beers and it just it was just it's if you compare the two looks, you'll see what I was saying.

00:18:55
Speaker 2: Okay, when you're playing there, how many songs do you have to learn?

00:19:00
Speaker 1: Like? What's I want to know what the division of labor was in terms.

00:19:03
Speaker 2: Of like whose job was it to buy all the forty fives to learn the songs? Did you all just have to on your own? No, the forty fives were usually there because they were part of the playlist on the weekend, So somewhere in the DJ booth we could find the forty fives and do we had to do? And it's basically required for you to know whatever it was hidden.

00:19:23
Speaker 1: How it goes. Put on the record, listen to your part. Okay, doom jot goom job goom goom chat all right, I got that. You know, learn your part, base player, sit there, hear the notes. Okay, you just you learn. You know, that's how you did it. Put on the record and just learn your stuff, got you? Yeah, you just you learn your parts. You listen, you learn the part because there was no sheet music. Nobody was giving you sheet music with a forty five right, gotcha, So you just listen. What was your idea of quote unquote making it? Like, did you feel as though, ad say, musician, you could make a living just by playing in a band, playing in playing drums or I felt that was possible if you were with the right situation. And so if I could have a car and live in an apartment, then I felt like I was making it. Okay, that's that's where you begin to think you're making it. Oh dude, I told him now.

00:20:26
Speaker 2: In your car, Well that this is where I learned that I'm insatiable, because I got the crib in the car and I was like, well, wait, I want this, and then I got then I want And that's part two to that whole thing. After you get the basics in place, you go okay, yeah, what else?

00:20:42
Speaker 1: I like that Picasso? Right?

00:20:44
Speaker 2: You know exactly You're You're spot on by saying, how did you meet Maurice White?

00:20:51
Speaker 1: I met him at the first time we had our first rehearsal. You never met. My dad was aware of him. I'd seen him play on TV with Ramsey, but I had not met him. So it wasn't until our first rehearsal that I met him. Who recommended you to Maurice to well? This is this was part of the audition thing. My audition was with Michael Beal, the original guitar player, and Verdein White, the bass player, and we just sat around and jammed for about forty five minutes. And then after that was over, Verdin called Maurice and he said, rees said what did you think? And virgin said, yeah, he's the cat and we just went off from there.

00:21:34
Speaker 2: Do you know what number you were as far as the order of I know Vertein was asking how many drummers auditioned? Well, no, no, no, I just met in terms of like what's the pecking order of I know Verdein was first who came in sech like were you.

00:21:49
Speaker 1: I was like the first one to come in to the new band, okay, and then Philip and Larry, you know, then Al and Johnny and Andrew.

00:21:57
Speaker 2: So one by one each member came to yep. Okay, Philip came in after me.

00:22:03
Speaker 1: Got you.

00:22:03
Speaker 2: What did you hear about the first iteration of the band breaking up starting all over again?

00:22:10
Speaker 1: You know what?

00:22:11
Speaker 2: I never heard anything about them about how or why they broke up.

00:22:16
Speaker 1: Okay. I just knew that I was being called to be a part of this thing called Earth Winding Fire, and I knew they had done two albums previously on Warner Brothers. So I had to assume at that point that something happened that caused that whole thing to go away, you know. So do you don't know what exactly transpired? I don't know how Maurice went to them and said, hey, guess what, surprise right, it's over, you know right? So what was it?

00:22:46
Speaker 2: Do you remember the very first day where the nine of you are together in a room about to play for the first time? Do I remember the very first There have been so many days. No, I can't say that I can remember the exact first day. You know, I can only tell you that anytime the nine of us got together and started playing, it was some pretty cool stuff. Really every time. Do you remember, like what you first played? Was it just a jamming face? Usually jamming?

00:23:17
Speaker 1: Okay, it's usually jamming, And probably Al McKay started with a lick okay, one of his famous licks, you know, and we would just jump in and start going.

00:23:28
Speaker 2: With the group that large. You know, oftentimes there are clicks. You know, we have it now. They're smokers, non smokers, the vegetarians hanging together, the non vegetarians, don't you know, those who drink go to the bar, those who don't. Harry Krishna's right exactly. So who were you clicking up with as far as those nine?

00:23:50
Speaker 1: Like? Who was your your buddy? Initially Al McKay, okay, so you were both from La. I mean I wasn't born and raised in Elle, but we came up and La together Oka, and our paths had already crossed, you know. So initially Alan, I hung tough on the road. Man.

00:24:07
Speaker 2: So before the record deal was like in place, because I know that you guys had to audition for Clyde Davis to get on Columbia. Yes, how did you guys eat? What were you doing for a job while seeing?

00:24:25
Speaker 1: Is this thing going to work? For real?

00:24:28
Speaker 2: And when you're joining, are you joining under the pretense of, like, hey, I'm joining a future major band or configuration or do.

00:24:40
Speaker 1: You just think you know what? That's how I looked at it. I thought I was joining a major situation that was going to develop into something, you know. In the meantime though, I was just getting a gig here and there, just doing what I could to you know, make ends meet, gotcha. But I felt like it was a major move that was coming up okay by joining Earth Wind and Fire, And as it turns out, it turned out to be pretty cool.

00:25:05
Speaker 2: There's a lot of small tidbits for the sake of storytelling that I had to leave out of the dock.

00:25:12
Speaker 1: However, why did you leave them out? Why?

00:25:17
Speaker 2: Because, man, it's a better storytelling. But one of the most curious things that I could not figure out for the life of me is that your audition.

00:25:28
Speaker 1: Typically, when you're auditioning for.

00:25:30
Speaker 2: A label, you know, you get a space, a rehearsal space, a studio or something, and the guy comes to you, and in this case, you guys had the audition for Clive Davis by opening up for all people John Sebastian.

00:25:45
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me say, let's back up, okay, because I keep hearing you say we had to audition for Well, No, we didn't have to. It's just that that's the way it turned out. It wasn't. You're putting kind of like, yeah, she had that. No.

00:26:01
Speaker 2: I always feel like everything you did was a do or die situation, at least for those first three years.

00:26:06
Speaker 1: But well, which is good. But we had already auditioned for Clive by the time we opened for John Sebastian. Oh, okay. We auditioned for Clive at Sunset Sound Studios in Hollywood, Okay, because that's the part that was killing me.

00:26:20
Speaker 2: And when he walked in with a couple of his guys, we played about three numbers.

00:26:25
Speaker 1: He got up and I was standing by the door. For some reason. He looked at me and said, I'll be in touch. I don't know what the next thing I knew man, we were signed to Columbia Records, gotcha. And let me just say about that whole thing. Earth Wind and Fire was the right band at the right time, with the right music. With the right record company, who had the right president. All of that was a musical perfect storm. Okay, that's what it was, man, and Clive was so much into it. All right, I'm glad you cleared that part up.

00:26:59
Speaker 2: Wish someone told me that for the film, only because I thought that you guys like Bob Cavallo told me that John Sebastian, whom if you guys are old enough to remember, Welcome Back Cotter, Love and Spoonful, well, Love and Spoonful, but also he sing the theme to Welcome Back Cotter and also a lot of times I'm in the city. Yes, right, Love and Spoonful was playing at the Lincoln Center, and I'm trying to imagine what his audience is thinking watching you guys as crazy as you are on stage.

00:27:32
Speaker 1: Like, certainly it was a departure from the John Sebastian genre.

00:27:39
Speaker 2: Right, And so my thing is like, that's a risk because you have to win that audience over so that the president. I mean, that's a good tester, like, but you know what, See, I don't know if Clive was sitting there going, oh, man, I hope they win the audience over. He Clive was in Okay, Clive was convinced, gotcha, so it didn't matter.

00:28:00
Speaker 1: We could have that night, okay, which we didn't.

00:28:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, we could have bombed that night, but Clive would have been like, Okay, all right, let's get into the studio, cut the record, let's go.

00:28:10
Speaker 1: I see now.

00:28:11
Speaker 2: Because Maurice wasn't established drummer and percussionists, did you ever feel like you got more direction than your other bandmates?

00:28:23
Speaker 1: Like was he? No? No, not at all. Although Maurice and I had a lot of great conversations about drums and drummers, and I can tell you one of his favorite drummers was the drummer who played with organist Jack McDuff.

00:28:38
Speaker 2: His name was Joe Dukes. Okay, look him up. I will look him up, you know. And he's talking about Joe Dukes, man, Joe Dukes. But I mean we had a lot. He was talking about Tony Williams. He introduced him to Roy Haynes.

00:28:52
Speaker 1: Maurice gave me an album by Chick corea trio once again, right, yep, it's entitled Now he sings Now, He's sobs. Are you familiar with this? I'm familiar with it, but get it's a great trio album, and it's of course Chick on piano, Miroslav Vito's on base and Roy Haynes on drums.

00:29:14
Speaker 2: Okay, what is your top three come to Jesus moments as far as like records that like change your life in terms of your craft?

00:29:25
Speaker 1: Man?

00:29:26
Speaker 2: Why I usually ask, if your house burns down, what three records are you saving?

00:29:29
Speaker 1: Oh? Not? You put it like that? Well, you know you got to take Marma Gaye's what's going on with you? Okay?

00:29:37
Speaker 2: If the house is burning down right after that, I think I'd have to grab earth wind and fires all in all. Well, you can't wait a minute, time out. I'm talking about you said what you said? Forget, I could take any three forget the house burning down?

00:29:53
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm just saying, let's start over.

00:29:56
Speaker 2: What yes, what three records would you say are just the most influential game as a.

00:30:02
Speaker 1: Drum Okay, influential as a drummer? Yes, okay, well you know what? Okay, you got to give me Miles Davis pork in best Okay, what is it about that album? I love the collaboration between him and Gil Evans. Yes, right, one of three, maybe four, because there's one you never hear about called Quiet Nights. Okay, you're right, Sketch porge in Best Miles Ahead, Miles Ahead. Yeah, and I was gonna say so. On the pork In Best album, there's a tune on there called Gone Gone Gone, yesub it up dun but uh good? Who is that playing drums? And he's one of my favorite drummers, Philly. Thank you very much, Philly Joe Jones. That what now you know?

00:30:55
Speaker 2: Philly Joe Jones has a solo book. This he has a solo book.

00:30:59
Speaker 1: See. That's one of the reasons I'm here today is to tell you about the Philly Joe Jones solo Okay, it's about this thick. It's three hundred and some odd pages, and it's every solo that Philly Joe ever recorded, transcribed with the sticking. So there's a fake book for Philly Joe Jones. I'm telling you I did not know this. And if you can buy, if you can find the spiral bind and get it, because then you can open it up and actually study a page. Otherwise, if it's a regular you know, pace binding, it won't stay open. But yeah, man, I found this online. I have given some out of his gifts. I said, you got to have this. Yeah, and it's not like you have to study a whole solo. Just take one line of any song. Okay, this you know, piece by piece? How do you eat an elephant piece of the time? Come on, come on, come on?

00:32:00
Speaker 2: You know always does he come with these sayings and idioms all the time.

00:32:06
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm showing out now man, this school of me, but I want this to be memorable.

00:32:13
Speaker 2: Any conversation I have with you is memory. Okay, all right, okay.

00:32:16
Speaker 1: Oh.

00:32:16
Speaker 2: I went to high school with Christian McBride and Joey Decrisisco. So in order to Sir Christip them in order to get their respect, I had.

00:32:25
Speaker 1: To learn I had to learn this in order to get their respect.

00:32:30
Speaker 2: I love Christian McBride. Yes, man, he's got a trio.

00:32:33
Speaker 1: Yes, and from it there's a live recording hit he did in New York here. It might have been the Buildings of Vanguard, probably on there they have a version and I played on my show of Michael Jackson's Lady in My Life. Has you heard this? I know this? Come on, man, I know, come on, Chris is my man. Oh it's great, it's my man, all right, so I gave you Miles Dayavis, Miles Ahead. Yes, I'm going to go back to another Miles Davis album hit Me and the reason I'm going to go back to this Miles Davis album. I don't know if you knew this because it.

00:33:09
Speaker 2: Was the last acoustic album Miles recorded before he went electric with in a silent way, Nephertiti.

00:33:18
Speaker 1: Thank you very much?

00:33:19
Speaker 2: Yeah man, right, yeah, I will say that.

00:33:30
Speaker 1: Okay.

00:33:31
Speaker 2: One of my dreams was to hear the outtakes, okay, and I used to bug her about it. So what's notable about the title track of Nephertiti is that Miles and Wayne are playing the straight guys by not sowing repeating this line ad nausea all over again.

00:33:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, becausere are no chord changes. It just goes on. It just goes on. But what Ron and Tony Williams are just and neighbor's having some fun. He's having some fun. He's just letting them go.

00:34:11
Speaker 2: Absolutely part of my French ape shit, Amen, like him and Wayne are just playing it straight.

00:34:17
Speaker 1: And one I kept asking.

00:34:19
Speaker 2: Herb I was like, yo, like, I've never heard a jazz song in which the leads don't take solos, but the foundation are the ones.

00:34:28
Speaker 1: That are doing it.

00:34:29
Speaker 2: And he's like, you got to listen to the outtakes. And what's so weird is so they went through about four takes of it. Really on take number two there's a moment where Herbie and Miles and all the you know, tea was letting all the banner out on tape. He didn't stop the tape, and by take two they realized.

00:34:54
Speaker 1: Oh, wait a minute, wait are you going solo?

00:34:57
Speaker 2: And the way they laughed when they realized that nobody was taking the solo and doing on the line straight, it was like, not a joke, but it was so funny to them that they forgot to take solos. They was like, nah, man, just leave it, it's gonna be funny. And I was like, that was mind blowing to me.

00:35:16
Speaker 1: Interesting. The thing I love about Neffer TD is I've always thought that that melody was very haunting, ah, especially the fourth time it comes in the you know when they add the octave, you know, and they play behind each other right right right delayed.

00:35:33
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, it's the chardal palette underneath that melody.

00:35:37
Speaker 1: That makes it so strange. Listen to just the chords. Forget about everything else. Just listen to what Herbie was playing.

00:35:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, the one time when the right do the line and everybody just takes it over. Pray is a very haunting song. All right, So we need a.

00:35:51
Speaker 1: Third out and Fall.

00:35:52
Speaker 2: I will say that Fall is probably my favorite, the song that comes after Neffertit falls like one of my favorite Yes, ye.

00:36:03
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's a great too. All right. So your third album, Okay.

00:36:08
Speaker 2: Okay, here's what we're gonna do. Just name the third album. Here's what here's what we're gonna do.

00:36:16
Speaker 1: Here's what we're gonna do on this third album. Stevie Wonders Music of my Mind.

00:36:23
Speaker 2: This is not the first time that's been mentioned on this show, really, because Stevie was starting to get into this whole synthesizer thing and he went way in on it on this album. I love when hearing people talk about this record on this show. All right, So the first time that you're hearing it, do you have any expectations? Are people hyping it up to you already, like you gotta hear this record?

00:36:47
Speaker 1: Or like how do you tell you? Okay, I got a great story about that record. The first time we played Washington, DC. Okay, we played the DC Army and nest in the Parliament. Funker Del's just tore us up.

00:37:03
Speaker 2: Another story, Oh, trust me, that's on the documentary story somewhere.

00:37:08
Speaker 1: It's there. Yes, But there was an after party, and so we went to this after party and the first time I heard that album was it's the opening tune. Yeah. I was like, whoa, what is this? And that that started me into that record. Really yes, yes, and I came home I said, give me this this album right here, this one, you know. Okay, So what about those three choices?

00:37:38
Speaker 2: I totally see it, and I agree with you, I too love those three records.

00:37:54
Speaker 1: Did Marius ever discuss.

00:37:56
Speaker 2: The idea of Okay, now we jokingly say respectability politics, but then it was dignity, sophistication, black joy, excellence.

00:38:09
Speaker 1: Did he ever sort of explain to you guys.

00:38:13
Speaker 2: It's not like he ever sat down and laid out a blueprint.

00:38:16
Speaker 1: Okay. You know, we all knew that he wanted to do music with integrity, and he wanted to do music that would deliver a message, you know, as he says, render of service to humanity by way of the music. So it's no, it's not like he ever sat down and said, Okay, look here's the plan. ABCDEFG is what we're gonna do. Bang and we're out there. No, we just let him lead. Just let him lead, because he had it all up here anyway.

00:38:41
Speaker 2: So one of the most fascinating things that I've learned about you guys, especially in dissecting the story, was how challenging maybe the first two to three years was because a lot of us will tend to think that you guys literally just landed from the sky and these awesome bills within and outfits and were wrong.

00:39:04
Speaker 1: Love, they're wrong. They will learn this.

00:39:07
Speaker 2: But it's also important to see the best thing about this doc, I think is when you guys have a challenge, the way that you pivot. Now, one of the things I was shocked and learned about you know, because I thought that, oh, when you go on tour, it's like every tour where there's a luxury.

00:39:25
Speaker 1: Bus and bunks.

00:39:26
Speaker 2: And the thing that you shocked me with was that you guys were driving station. So can you for our well you just said it the station Wang of days. So tell me about typically, like, because that to me is like you go on stage, but are you your own roady as well.

00:39:45
Speaker 1: We are. I packed my drums many many a night. Are you kidding? So you're your own? Yes, we had two guys. Now, we didn't have two guys that would get the stuff out the truck and to begin to but we had no problems with setting up our stuff, okay at all. We were. This is why you played with the small kid. No, not necessarily, not because that was going to be easier to set up. It's just that's the kid I chose to play with because all the photos I've seen you three piece, four piece yeah yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, but no, many and night. I set up my own stuff absolutely, And I had a great Ludwig drum story for you. Tell me because at the rehearsal the other day, I commented on your snare drum. Yeah, I said, man, it looks like a Ludwig super funic. And I want to tell you that when I was in junior high school, I carried with me all the time a Ludwig drum catalog. I was going to get a Ludwig drums and I did. I got me a beautiful silver sparkle silver superclassic. Fell in love with that drum, said man.

00:40:45
Speaker 2: I believed weren't you playing that on the Gratitude album? I believe you're playing with I think I had twin times. That wasn't the superclassic, that wasn't what I started with. But yeah, man, no, it's the best sounding time. Come on, come on, come on with drums man time. And I became a member because Ludwick was sponsoring this. There is an organization called the National Association of Rudimental Drummers.

00:41:11
Speaker 1: Nar in ARD and you had the audition to become a member. And I remember driving up to because I lived in Inglewood in the Hollywood to Professional Drum Shop on Vine, which was across the street from the Musicians Union. That's still there, I mean, well the one I pro drum Shop is still there. The Musicians Union is out in Burbank, Okay. And auditioning for the owner at that time, his stepsons now own it, Bob Jaeger. And if you ever get a chance, go on YouTube and look at the sixtieth anniversary of pro Drum Shop and look at the history of that shop. But I remember having to audition demonstrate I could play the rudiments, and so today I have this certificate in my studio on the wall says in Ard National Association, and the date is March nineteen seventy two, I believe.

00:42:01
Speaker 2: So even with a deal and established air quotes, you still had to go there to show that.

00:42:08
Speaker 1: You Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. Okay, yeah, okay.

00:42:13
Speaker 2: One thing I couldn't get into only because there's literally no history of well one relatives or anything. And Jessica's not here anymore because many people don't know. I mean, if they love keep your head to the sky, they know she exists. But I mean, how hard is it for Jessica to jel in with the rest of the guys, just in terms of the wear and tear, in the travel and what you have to go through to make it. Actually, Jessica fit right in. She would hang with us. She was like one of the cats, you know, got you. But I think eventually, man, you know.

00:42:52
Speaker 1: Sometimes you can get a little distracted. You know, somebody might introduce something for someone and it can be a big distraction. Eventually, you know, rees said, hey, look we gotta part ways, gotcha, you know.

00:43:07
Speaker 2: But it's been on the record that substance abuse entered the picture the picture no doubt, So I mean, how hard is it to adjust to Reese's philosophy of clean living and spiritual living like on the road, like where you guys expected to follow his.

00:43:27
Speaker 1: Diet and all those things as well. Well. First off, let me say it wasn't like it was a mandate.

00:43:32
Speaker 2: Okay, so you know, all right, here's what we're doing, and you're going to do it right.

00:43:36
Speaker 1: No, that's not how it went down because Reese led by example. So instead of telling you what you should be eating, he might say, he may come up, I'm going up a Hollywood boulevard here to Johnny Wisemuller's Health food storm, pick up some vitamins. You'd go, oh, really, and what is that for? And you get into it.

00:43:58
Speaker 2: An eventually your mindset would begin to absorb this stuff.

00:44:04
Speaker 1: You would take it. It would become a part of you.

00:44:07
Speaker 2: Okay, So when I entered the game, I will say that was the first year of like ninety four, ninety five, really ninety six, but let's say ninety four.

00:44:17
Speaker 1: The commercialization of wellness.

00:44:20
Speaker 2: You know, you can go to Whole Foods, you can go to fresh Fields, like each town has that specialty store if you want to do healthy, clean living. But how are you maintaining that sort of clean living. If you have a show in Alabama or Mississipian, you know nothing.

00:44:41
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not.

00:44:42
Speaker 2: It's not shots fire to Alabama, but I've been to many a southern state where they kind of laugh at you because it's like, you know, plant pasca.

00:44:53
Speaker 1: Right right, right, right right.

00:44:55
Speaker 2: So when you're America, you're into that kind of lifestyle, it's going to be hard to make attain that because that's not a uniform lifestyle across the United States.

00:45:04
Speaker 1: Of America, you know, So you just have to pick and choose your spots. But today, but some nights you guys and just have a salad.

00:45:15
Speaker 2: Oh okay, you know, but I mean no, because we have excellent catering, so, I mean, you know, we try to keep it on the right level.

00:45:25
Speaker 1: I don't have any complaints about catering. Have you played, man, Look when you play the venue up in Toronto, they're catering up. There is off the chain. Oh dude. I could write a whole Zagga guide on when are you doing this?

00:45:40
Speaker 2: Because you need to get started well, I mean, you know, just after this documentary thing is done, there's twolve more for me. When you guys are coming up and okay, so there's you know, well it already aired on HBO, so that people know and we talk about, uh, the p funk situation and you guys having to get your funk together to handle them. I always wanted to know, were you guys even aware of the song Let's take It to the Stage by Parliament Funkadelic, which I mean, you know it wasn't just you guys. They were playfully going after rufus. Yeah, yeah, I remember hearing, but what really?

00:46:21
Speaker 1: Okay, you didn't know? All right, people have their fun. There you go.

00:46:28
Speaker 2: There's another story I wanted to tell but couldn't. The War story. Do you remember this at all? War wanted to headline and you guys wanted to not be first. So there was like a group that opened and then you guys went on and absolutely murdered and destroyed, and then like half the house leaves after you guys are done, like kind of leaving War with an empty house at the end at its most before the bill within professionalism of Earth Wind and Fire, like what bands were in the scope of we had to blow them off the stage were just anyone could get it back then like anybody that was on stage with us was in trouble because we knew we were a hot band.

00:47:18
Speaker 1: We knew we could play if you were on stage with us, well what band? Secretly? I mean, look, we could be diplomatic now, you guys. We knew there was some payback coming with the Funkadelics.

00:47:28
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, that was like, no matter what, we're going to get the Funkadelics.

00:47:35
Speaker 1: How did you feel about the Commodorees.

00:47:37
Speaker 2: Well, see the Commodorees cooling, the Gang Tower Power. You know, we were we were trying to get all of them, Okay. You know, so anytime we were on stage together, it was a thing, you know, but we would go out.

00:47:50
Speaker 1: You know, we're always very focused, okay, And that's one of the reasons why I still today. Before we go on stage, we gather in the circle and just kind of pulled the energy in because once we hit the stage, we're just in this thing and we're not going to stop until the last song. You know.

00:48:07
Speaker 2: The one photo of you guys that made an impression on me as a kid was the dust Sleeve of Gratitude, which is a bird's eye view of the California Jam of cal Jam A one hundred and fifty thousand.

00:48:24
Speaker 1: You know, the numbers keep changing on that. You know what else is interesting? My wife was there? You were at cal Jam? Wow? Did you guys meet then or in years much later?

00:48:36
Speaker 2: I watched that cal Jam performance and sort of tracking the band's adventures in terms of learning from past mistakes, I would say a lesser band would have probably gave into the fear. And this is after establishing the Philadelphia story with the Uptown Theater, which you know, the main word is Philadelphia. We are known to boot. We booed Beyonce, We boot Santa Claus.

00:49:06
Speaker 1: Like you didn't boot Santa Claus. We did? Oh no, there Philly. Philly has like.

00:49:15
Speaker 2: Moments, yes, players that retired throwing batteries at them because they still lost the game. Now we are of rude city, So you getting booed at the Uptown is just that's that's the way we say we love you. But you know, was there any fear whatsoever? Like right before cal Jam? Of like so cal Jam is a Woodstockian kind of yeah, But I want to say something about the fear thing. We never had any fear. I don't remember ever having any fear about going on that stage doing a show.

00:49:50
Speaker 1: It was like, Okay, counted off, let's go. That was our attitude, not the persons.

00:49:55
Speaker 2: Thinking like no, nope, nope, nobody you know what we tell you. We were like the Navy seals of R and B. Once we locked in and had the mission straight, it was over for whoever is on the other side.

00:50:08
Speaker 1: Okay, that was all right, I'm telling you. That was the attitude.

00:50:12
Speaker 2: You don't have to tell me twice you're in the early fire like. That was like, hey, man, okay, just Maurice counted off and here we go for an hour and a half. So there was never indifference or folded arms or no no, no long face that we were in the mission together.

00:50:31
Speaker 1: Okay.

00:50:32
Speaker 2: The Open Your Eyes album, what makes that notable for me is that you guys decided to shack up Caribou Wrench in Denver, Colorado in the wintertime where it's super cold, man man and isolated. So what was the decision to isolate yourselves outside of the comfort of the city and all those things to make this record?

00:50:56
Speaker 1: Well, that was it. To get away from the comforts of the city, to get away from any distractions of the city. Maurice just wanted to be along with the band in a creative space and just work on being creative, coming up with the best product. We could come up with the best songs free. That's the way the world.

00:51:13
Speaker 2: What would you say was the time spent on the road, Like as a road person, how many I don't mean how many gigs would you do a year?

00:51:23
Speaker 1: But just not being home? Were you one hundred day a year? It could be on the road eight months, not consecutively, Okay, it would be broken up and eight months, He's easy. How do you maintain home? Like?

00:51:39
Speaker 2: Is someone mowing the lawn? Is someone paying the electric bill? Is the first thing you do is move into an apartment? See you don't have that kind of overhead.

00:51:49
Speaker 1: Okay, no, sure it.

00:51:53
Speaker 2: Would be tough to maintain a home. But then, like I just said, man, if you live in an apartment, you have to worry about that kind of stuff.

00:51:59
Speaker 1: And I didn't get married until seventy nine, gotcha, so at that point I already had my home.

00:52:05
Speaker 2: I just needed a beautiful lady to kind of hold everything together. God, so there were challenges, but you knew what you had to do, you know, so the home life could suffer maybe not, did you? As far as the recording of Open Our Eyes, which a lot of people feel that that's the beginning scene of you guys really finding your way.

00:52:27
Speaker 1: I'm interesting. I've always thought that that album was kind of a turning point musically, if you go back to the song selection, like, for instance, Spasmodic Moves, a bebop thing.

00:52:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm inside too was always the fun part, you know, yeah, right right right? So do you consider that the last of the old era, whereas that's the way the world's the beginning of a new I.

00:52:50
Speaker 1: Consider that album the beginning of a new musical journey. Now, is Charles Stepnie aboard this time? Or yes? Okay, so even if it's not getting passed.

00:53:02
Speaker 2: When we started working on Spirit, okay, as a matter of fact, we were about to cut the track.

00:53:06
Speaker 1: I was sitting on drums and the phone rang.

00:53:09
Speaker 2: We were in the studio about to record Spirit, the title, the actual title track.

00:53:15
Speaker 1: That's weird. I thought you guys wrote Spirit after Charles died. No, we were I was sitting we were getting record it. I'm sitting on the drums and Maurice got the phone call. He says, hey man, Charles just passed. I was like, oh man, So we went in and proceeded to record Spirit.

00:53:34
Speaker 2: Now what explain what Charles's role in the band was and how important he was and what he brought to the table.

00:53:42
Speaker 1: Well, Charles Stepney and Maurice went way back to Chicago, I mean, because he's recording with Charles all the time at Jesz Records. Charles Stepney was an incredible, incredible composer, arranger, and he was very instrumental in the beginning stages of Earth Winding Fire with the production, with the arrangements. If you go to our very first album on Columbia Last Days and Times, his arrangements, he was very instrumental in getting us on track.

00:54:14
Speaker 2: So and see the Light like he's doing all that, the crazy whirlwind of horns, it sounds like a tornado.

00:54:23
Speaker 1: That was yet Yeah, that was Chiles Stephanie. Yeah, but that's how broad he was with his arrangement skills. And if you ever get a chance, man, listen to Many Rippertson's first solo album, Yes, Come All Garden all the time. I listened to that. Okay, come to My Garden man, some great stuff on there.

00:54:44
Speaker 2: Okay, So probably the most notable thing about that's the way the world. To me, that's a sort of like a time capsule is that's also the beginning of deep snare, earth wind and fire. Now here's the thing like for me as far as my favorite all time song like Mighty Mighty is to me one of the greatest. Like I'm a crack snare guy, you know what I mean, Like Paron Stephones like my my idol as far as because I love the sound of a crack snare. So Steve Roon's work where average White band was like to have a question about that.

00:55:26
Speaker 1: Are you one too? Because I've been one for years too, Because there's some cast that will play stick to the center of the head and that's a sound. But I came up playing rim and head at the same Oh rimenhead always.

00:55:40
Speaker 2: I always, my stick always goes to seven o'clock to eleven right my left side, I have zones where I hit I never hit that center. I've not played traditional in decades.

00:55:52
Speaker 1: It was Sonny Emery that got me started on match really yeah Sunny Way with the band really, So you always I was traditional. I was always traditional until Sonny came along. I said match script and I started experimenting with it, and so I go back and forth.

00:56:11
Speaker 2: It depends I will play traditional, because when I play traditional, I hit lighter because it's a different touch. It's totally different touch. But here's what I learned, though.

00:56:24
Speaker 1: I learned.

00:56:26
Speaker 2: That the lighter you hit in the studio, the boombastic loudness that you want, you have to play soft so that it doesn't destroy the mic that you're on. Like if I were using Sure fifty sevens, then I can just whack ahead right, yes, yes, the engineer is always like, dude, the more silent you play, the more I'll really engineer you to make you sound like King Kong. And then once I realized that, then I started playing lighter but for you though. Drum tone wise, look, I respect deep snare tones, but it was never my favorite, Like, how did you feel about machine of it all?

00:57:03
Speaker 1: My go to snare was always the Ludwick Superphonic four hundred. Okay, why is this?

00:57:11
Speaker 2: Because it was just it was just so easy to tune. I always loved the sound I got out of it. I just never had any complaints about it at all, you know, until I switched over.

00:57:22
Speaker 1: And now today I'm playing d w drums. Really, Oh, I have a beautiful tw set at home. You would absolutely love it.

00:57:31
Speaker 2: But live though, you would? You and Fred would crack it up. Yeah, yeah, crack it up. So wait, is it true that Fred came a boy because you had strap throat one night or something?

00:57:42
Speaker 1: Well? I did. There was a case where I came up but Fred was already in the band. I had to go home one.

00:57:47
Speaker 2: Time though, because I had strap throat. Okay, yeah, it was bad. Have you ever had a strap throat? No, dude, you don't want strap throat?

00:57:54
Speaker 1: How long were you out? For? About a week? Okay, about a week and then I came back, you know. But look, anytime you can't drink water without your throat burning, you know you got something. Ooh that's crazy. I definitely don't want that. Strap throat is no fun.

00:58:09
Speaker 2: But anyway, but for double drummer groups, I mean, there's the Doobie Brothers, this is the Alman Brothers. James Brown, Yeah, James Brown. You guys, how hard is it to adjust?

00:58:21
Speaker 1: See? Right?

00:58:22
Speaker 2: Like someone has to be forty nine, someone has to be fifty one. How do you decide who's the lead? Well, you know what, we didn't go through a long period. Freddie and I did not go through a long period of trying to get the eagles out the way.

00:58:39
Speaker 1: We just immediately understood what we had to do. It couldn't sound like two drummers. That had to sound like one drummer got you, even though it was two drummers. So we got all that stuff out the way and we just locked it in. We didn't go through a lot of changes about that.

00:59:04
Speaker 2: So ramping up earth when and fire to the point where now you guys are a stadium act, an arena act. Can you just talk about the sort of upgrading of it all, Like bringing in George Faison, bringing in Doug Henning and his assistant an unknown name, David Copperfield, like the idea of magic, Like are you guys having meetings and he's telling you, like, we have to do a different presentation that we've ever done before.

00:59:36
Speaker 1: Well, it wasn't like Maris called a meeting he said okay, look this is what we're getting ready to do. He would just do it, and he would he might say, okay, look we're going to get this magician Doug Henning or David Copperfield to come in and give us some extra stuff because he really was about presentation. And I like what George Faison says in the documentary says it was theater and that's what Maurice wanted. He wanted the music side, but he wanted some theatrics. He wanted more than just some guys stand on stage playing their axes, you know. And so that's how we got into the whole theatrics thing. I think Verdein said, you guys rehearsed for five months? Is that true? Like you had to rehearse for five months to make sure a little bit. Yeah, because there was a lot going on. We had a lot of stuff going on. So yeah, we had to make sure we had it down and Maurice wasn't gonna let it leave the city until we had it all the way down. So yeah, So how long would it take to lock.

01:00:35
Speaker 2: Just with music before you even start with Okay, now we have to lock with well that was again dancing that that could be about a month, just make sure the music is all the way down and making sure it's the right set list. So what George famously did was take you out of your comfort zone and brought you to the forefront. How was it adjusting to now being in the front line as opposed to being in the back line hiding one back of the band to bind your drums. So you're literally now without a shield or the shield of a mic stand. Like what was that adjustment?

01:01:20
Speaker 1: Like? Actually the and did you protest? No? No, I didn't protest. But let me also say I was quite comfortable sitting on the drums and was not expecting to be brought out front to do vocals. I never asked for that position. That's not something I wanted to do. I just wanted to stay in the back and play the drums.

01:01:43
Speaker 2: So was it so that Maurice and Philip weren't a duo? But now there would be like three people. There would be people flanking Maurice, myself and phil That was the idea to give it more symmetry. So you had Maurice, then you had phil and Ralph. But why not Verdeen who's very energetic? Because Verdeen did he dance or could he move well? The kind of choreography that George Faison was laying down, Vertein would not be able to do with the bass guitar in his hand.

01:02:12
Speaker 1: Okay, it just wouldn't be feasible.

01:02:15
Speaker 2: Okay, it also goes for the guitar players, although the guitar players dick quite well.

01:02:18
Speaker 1: Al Johnny Andrew was a great dancer, you know. So no, we just whatever George showed us. We just tried to work on it and get it down.

01:02:27
Speaker 2: How far did it feel for that first week though, to just or what did you discover in being in that front line, because it's not like you were demoted.

01:02:38
Speaker 1: You were actually promoted.

01:02:39
Speaker 2: I was promoted, but you were also without your shield, like I'm certain that you came to this world like I'm a drummer in the world's greatest group, but now I'm a singer in the world's greatest group.

01:02:54
Speaker 1: So it took some adjustment on the vocal side because I was not a vocalist. Dude, I was not prepared vocally to take that on that front, that outfront thing.

01:03:07
Speaker 2: So Maurice was cool enough because he was studying with the very famous vocal teacher in La Sethy Riggs.

01:03:14
Speaker 1: Okay, he said, Ralph.

01:03:16
Speaker 2: I'm a senior Seth Riggs's gonna take lessons from Seth. I'm taking care of it.

01:03:19
Speaker 1: Just go And that's how I got my vocal stuff. Together, so you have to do that move. Oh yeah, you know all of that. Yes, nice, And I still use those, by the way, I don't do them every night, but if I feel my voice is a little off, I'll go in there. Michael Jackson's entire forty one minute vocal coaching coaching thing with Seth Riggs is on YouTube and that's what we all. Yeah, like all forty one minutes of Michael and Seth Riggs and yeah, man's that's what I do it too. But I didn't have any fear about being out front. I had no fear. I was like, okay, all right, well new surroundings. There we go.

01:03:58
Speaker 2: You know what was the best earth winding fire show ever?

01:04:05
Speaker 1: In your mind? Ah? Nothing beats this night.

01:04:09
Speaker 2: Well, I got to tell you. People still talk about the tubes the Tube Show. When the tubes would come down, it would be nine tubes, Yeah, and they would come down, they would light up, they would light up, they would light then they'd go dark, and when they lit up again, we were inside the tubes and then the tubes would raise up. We'd come off stage and the exploding pyramid with.

01:04:31
Speaker 1: The robots, all of that. Those that the Tube Show was probably the greatest great show.

01:04:36
Speaker 2: So the seventy seven all in all, ye, all of.

01:04:40
Speaker 1: That in there.

01:04:40
Speaker 2: Yes, what is the best city for Earth Winding Fire to perform?

01:04:49
Speaker 1: Like when you go there? Oh my god, I can't wait to go back.

01:04:54
Speaker 2: To get any cards and letters if I say the city?

01:04:59
Speaker 1: No, Okay, that's a that's a killer question because you don't have a favorite.

01:05:07
Speaker 2: But well, I'm I'm working on that right now, processing this, Okay. I gotta tell you I have a lot of great memories of Washington, d C. Well, yeah, chocolate that the Capital Center dates we did five nights in a row. Capital Center is no longer there. Ye. Look, man, anytime we play l A at the Hollywood Bowl, that's a thing.

01:05:35
Speaker 1: Anytime we can play Madison Square Garden or Jones Beach, it's a cool thing here in New York. Got it? And then you know what, give me Royal Albert Hall in London, Okay, and that we can.

01:05:53
Speaker 2: Those are some of my favorite places, okay for seventies or from the Fire? Is there such thing as a struggle city even in the route? Hee day, I hated playing Miami in Vegas because.

01:06:11
Speaker 1: They just why did you hate to play Miami? In Vegas. I mean beautiful places to go to.

01:06:17
Speaker 2: I mean Miami is a beautiful place to go to, but we could not penetrate that market for the life of me. Even to this day. We might do Miami like maybe every other year. You couldn't penetrate it from a live standpoint or what we could. But like again, like DC has always supported us mainland because there's a radio station that literally caters to the music that we do and it's still.

01:06:43
Speaker 1: There, Howard University radioh.

01:06:45
Speaker 2: Whu R right know it will so thus the audience supports us.

01:06:50
Speaker 1: We really never hit it.

01:06:54
Speaker 2: There's something about Miami and their club culture that just never resonated with our natural, organic soul thing, despite them having Henry Stone's you know label legacy of funk music.

01:07:08
Speaker 1: There's no city that comes to mind that we ever had to struggle in Okay, anytime we hit that stage, by the time the show was over, we got them. And that's just a fact, got you, you know, we never had to struggle. There's no audience that comes to mind that we had to work at trying to pull. No. We just because Maurice used to say, look, don't worry about the audience. Keep the energy up here on the stage, that'll come and it would okay.

01:07:34
Speaker 2: So you know, there's a part of the film in which you guys talk very frankly and honestly about the infamous nineteen eighty three meeting in which Maurice disbanded the group and all of you had to go your separate ways and without warning kind of make a way for yourself. But however, like a year into it, you already start your life as a producer.

01:08:06
Speaker 1: Can you talk about like how long it.

01:08:11
Speaker 2: Took you to find your footing and to figure out what your next moves were going to be? Now that earth would fire, you know, for now, wasn't existing like when it was presented to you. Was it presented like the band's over and no more? Or is it just like we're taking six months off and maybe I'll think about it next year. It was presented as we were taking a break and we didn't know if we were ever going to get back together again. Maurice was about to do a solo record for CBS, and Philip was doing his record samely with CBS. Yeah, Columbia with Phil Collins, and so you know, after we got the news Man, you had to really just because it was such a shock. See, it would be different, and I talk about this in the book.

01:09:07
Speaker 1: It would be it would be different if we had time to prepare for what was coming. Or Maurice had said, hey, guess what, Look a year from now, a year from now, six months, we're going to be doing a different thing. Okay, fine, but you just can't call a meeting, right meet me at the complex tomorrow, there's a meeting, and then get that kind of news man. So I had to figure some stuff out. What did you do for twenty four hours after that meeting? I just kind of sat around and went, Wow, maybe he'll change his mind.

01:09:40
Speaker 2: Or No, I didn't know. No, I didn't think there was no I didn't think he would change his mind.

01:09:45
Speaker 1: I knew.

01:09:45
Speaker 2: I knew that was the plan and that is what was going to take place.

01:09:50
Speaker 1: No. I just kind of sat there and said, Okay, I gotta how long did it take you before you realize, like this is real? And I got bills to and all right, it did well, it didn't take long at all. I mean I had, you know, a family coming and uh so no, I had to jump into gear.

01:10:14
Speaker 2: So not many people know that your RESPONSI will probably for like one of the I mean, yeah, I consider it sold to soul. Uh classic Temptations, But you pinned and produced treat Her Like a Lady. Well, I didn't write it, Okay, wrote it. I was the lead singer at that time, who Rest in Peace is no longer with us. But Al McKay I was over at his house.

01:10:40
Speaker 1: He was living in a Lost Fielis area, Okay, and he said, Hey, I always call me Sleepy Slick. Want to help me go in the studio and do the Temptation. I thought he was joking, okay, because we were both Motown addicts, so you know anything, Moti, we were into it. I said, yeah, I'd love to, and sure enough, man, we went in the studio with the Temptations one of the best projects I've ever done in my life. It was called Truly for You, and from that album came the hit single treated Actually Like a Lady and many did that feel like? That was kind of surreal because while I was hearing Cheated Like a Lady on the radio, I was still working at this plumbing company, waiting to get it together, to get pulled out of this thing I was in, you know, so that was kind of interesting. And then at the same time I had a tune on Philip.

01:11:32
Speaker 2: Bailey's Chinese Wall album, which is the album that Phil Collins did. So I had these things, little things bubbling, but it wasn't gonna be enough to like really make a major difference at that moment. So I had to really figure some stuff out quickly and jump in and engage you. You also wrote let Me Talk on Faces.

01:11:58
Speaker 1: Yes I did, but I was hm, but I had a piece of it.

01:12:04
Speaker 2: How do you well, okay, so how does how can you elbow your way into the system? Like, as far as I'm concerned, Like Al McKay is the golden guy. Well, one, he has a guitarist, so if he does something melodic, it's very song and he would do that frequently.

01:12:23
Speaker 1: He would do that or something. Yeah, he would do that. He would wait for dude, look, I saw it happen too many times and so we here we are sound check and now I was just like, would be like, what's that? What's that? Would you get look up? It's a song? Got you.

01:12:45
Speaker 2: So that's how for me it was different because I had to because I didn't play melodic instrument my way in was going to be lyrically, so I would go to Maurice and I finally did on a tune called Welcome on the Heritage CD okay, and went to him. I said, man, look, let's write, man, let's do some writing. He said, okay, Man, I got this tune right here, and we work on Welcome okay. I only asked about let Me Talk because it's kind of weird that you don't often hear.

01:13:21
Speaker 1: About.

01:13:22
Speaker 2: Usually at the top of the decade, you might hear one or two references to, like for hip hop, like when the nineties were coming, they would say, oh, man, it's the nineties.

01:13:32
Speaker 1: Is nineties.

01:13:34
Speaker 2: And the thing that I'm noticing about the Faces record was and let Me talk. There were some wondering, you know, there was thoughts in the air of what will the eighties be, like, like will will this destroy? It's almost like you guys predicted what would happen to people in the eighties not knowing this, and you know, I saw it almost as almost as.

01:13:59
Speaker 1: A prophetic, fetic kind of thing. Yeah yeah, and wondered, how well it's not. It wasn't something that was intentional. I mean, you know, when you write, you're not editing. When you write, you're just writing right, you know. And so that's the way that lyric turned out. And if it is or was somewhat prophetic, then that's the way it was supposed to be.

01:14:24
Speaker 2: Were you shocked that another client of yours, Bobby Glenn? Bobby Glenn, Were you shocked at how twenty years later, really thirty years later, on jay Z's the Blueprint album, that Yeah came back to life. Song Cry sounds like a love song, sounds like the intro of song Cry is Bobby Glenn's. Were you shocked at all that that had another lease on life?

01:14:53
Speaker 1: Man? Man, man, I got a phone call and I pick up the phone and the personally and goes, are you Ralph john says yeah, I'm Ralph Johnson.

01:15:03
Speaker 2: He said, well you've been sampled. He cut right to the chase, Hea, You've been sampled. I was like, oh, okay, cool. I'm like, so who sampled me? He said, jay Z? I thought he was dude, I was, I said, so what I said? I said, D jay Z? He said yes, D jay Z.

01:15:28
Speaker 1: I said, well, let me give you my my manager's number and take care of the biz. And man, after jay Z did it, Keisha Cole did the same sample. Frake did the same sample. The biggest most successful sample was Queen Nija with Big Sean Damn. Yeah.

01:15:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got an award from ASCAP for that and I was like, what nice?

01:15:57
Speaker 1: You know? And so that was quite a moment because that that.

01:16:03
Speaker 2: Tune continues to generate. Yeah, we still get phone calls. People are like, okay, we want to use that. Yeah, go right ahead.

01:16:12
Speaker 1: You know sometimes you can't call it. No, you can't call it. I never thought i'd be sample. Are you How did he find that? It was in a ben in Brooklyn? Yes, that's how. The label was some obscure label. It was called Koala Records.

01:16:26
Speaker 2: What yes, But even with I forgot about Shelton Kilby.

01:16:32
Speaker 1: When did you work with Shelton Kilby? What do you know about Sheldon Kilby? Yes?

01:16:37
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean look, you know what you know? Sheldon was a dentist. He was a dentist and he had a record. I think it was called BG Records. I think, okay, man, what how'd you even find out about him?

01:16:49
Speaker 1: Where'd you run across at? Do you know who I am? Well, now I do, dude.

01:16:54
Speaker 2: You trusted me to tell your story, this guy right here quest love.

01:16:59
Speaker 1: No man There's were there any other projects?

01:17:02
Speaker 2: Like how does Well? I always wanted to know how Verdin hooked up with Pockets. But when Klimba Records is forming, yes, like, are you guys giving a chance to say, hey, here's this songwriter.

01:17:16
Speaker 1: Well, if you had something you could bring Maurice that made sense, he would do it. At that time, I didn't have anything I could bring him that would make sense. So got it. That was that.

01:17:30
Speaker 2: But to answer your question about like not knowing when a song will bloom something unexpected surprises, I mean, you know you're living that in real life, in real time with September, Like with you guys and with Run DMC, I kind of laugh at how both groups have legacy songs like Shining Star is a legacy song, seventeen fires of the fantasy, Like we could name at least ten legacy songs. Same with Run DMC, Walk this Way it was important for history, Like there's like at least five to six historical songs. But when the smoke clears for Run DMC, probably when all said and done, it's Tricky might be there.

01:18:23
Speaker 1: It's Tricky's there.

01:18:24
Speaker 2: September, it's like no one called it, no one said this is going to be the song that will be known for right, because you don't know how weirded out were you that suddenly like September just got a whole new lease of life out of nowhere.

01:18:38
Speaker 1: I wasn't saying I wouldn't say I was weirded out. Look, all these songs are like your kids, y'or your children, and so if being the parent you are, if they're successful, you're happy. So Man, as it turns out, September Man is one of the most played, one of the most downloaded stream songs on the planet Earth.

01:19:01
Speaker 2: We're happy about that, and I'm sure the writers and publishers are happy.

01:19:05
Speaker 1: To shout out the ol.

01:19:19
Speaker 2: How cathartic was it to finally get to tell your story in your life and whatnot? Like how healing was it? Like what did you find out about yourself that you did? Because I think if if you're making history, you don't come outside yourself to look at it like you're just living it. And you know, what might be a life changing concert for me might just be a Thursday and Phoenix for you. See, So that gets into the question of why write the book, Why now why write the book then? And I always answer that question with a question why not?

01:19:56
Speaker 1: Now? See, it's one of those things that it happens in the spirit first gotcha, you wake up and go man, you know, I think maybe it's time for me to tell my story. And that's that's what happened. That's what happened with the book. I just woke up one day and said, you know what, I'm doing this. I want to leave this behind and I want to share my story and I hope that people find it interesting.

01:20:22
Speaker 2: What do you do outside of earthwood and fire that still gives you pleasure creatively? I know about your your foray into uh being a jazz DJ and on your radio station and whatnot, But what other things?

01:20:38
Speaker 1: What other creative mediums are you into? You? Well, I'm are you a good chef? Well? Now see, I wasn't going to go there. But on the creative side, I love to get in the kitchen a cook. Okay. I derive an extreme amount of pleasure from visiting art galleries because I collect art.

01:21:01
Speaker 2: Nice Okay, My wife and I have been collecting since seventy eight.

01:21:07
Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah, so we any notable pieces that you own? I just recently added to the collection a Salvador Dolli, which comes, Oh you're a serious art collector. Oh no, I've got I've got a couple of things you might find interesting. Interesting, but no, no, no, this, this Savado dollar piece comes has what we call provenance. And when you hear that term in the art world, yes, it means chain of ownership. You know where it's who owned it before you. And this Salvado dollar piece comes from the private collection of Pierre Argalais, who was Dolly's publisher starting in nineteen fifty nine for thirty years. So it does have provenance. It's a very important piece.

01:21:52
Speaker 2: I just started my art collecting game, like maybe for first of a sneakers and I got bored and well, really it was a record. It was always records, then it was sneakers, and now I just you know, it's like your pockets always burning. You gotta you gotta do something. So so what do you So you've started in the art game. Yeah, I'm starting on. I have some notable pieces, mostly though I'd like to collect work of fellow peers of mine. Yes, George Clinton has made me four amazing pieces of.

01:22:27
Speaker 1: Just afro futurist art.

01:22:29
Speaker 2: George paints, Oh my god, in a way that you wouldn't believe. Yes, George. Oh see, George's stuff is on and I've kept it quiet. Like when I do my art stuff, I don't brag because also aforementioned.

01:22:41
Speaker 1: Uh or whatever.

01:22:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, hove and and swizz right, Yes, that's they're collecting a whole another level, dude. Yeah, if they find a new artist, then the price goes up, everything on a whole other level.

01:22:53
Speaker 1: Right.

01:22:54
Speaker 2: So I that's that's the one thing I never brag about because where can I see George Clinton stuff does the online?

01:23:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's stuff is definitely online. But check him out. Man, I didn't know he painted during the pandemic.

01:23:05
Speaker 2: He started putting these pieces up and they're really really good, and I snagged about four of them. Well, my collection of art is very collected, and that it's not just graphics on the wall, it's art, pottery.

01:23:17
Speaker 1: M h.

01:23:18
Speaker 2: It's the books, yes, like the Chagall lithograph books you collected.

01:23:23
Speaker 1: Wow? Oh oh no, no see see look let me say, let me just say this, if you come to my crib next time you're in La Okay, I know you're a busy man, Yes, come by my crib and just collection. Nice. It's African sculpture too. It's a it's a whole thing. Okay, it's a whole thing. I'm telling you.

01:23:44
Speaker 2: Of any artifacts that you've collected, and you know I'm I'm a pop culture collector. I've collected lunchboxes, records, posters, old magazines like I have a smith Sony in inside my crib.

01:24:01
Speaker 1: I love it.

01:24:02
Speaker 2: What are the three things that you've that you've collected that like, really, I don't know if anything's stopping Salvador, but I'm just saying within the collection, yes, or because I have other things that I collect by that's what I meant.

01:24:20
Speaker 1: Because I collect knives. What is it about knives? Just the design? Okay from Japan. I collect folders, so they're not fixed blades, Okay, they're folders. The blade comes out. Collect knives.

01:24:36
Speaker 2: You're just reminding me right now. Wow, this is a hell of a way for this audience to find out. For Serik's fiftyeth my partner in the group Black Thought, for his fiftieth birthday, I went out and got him an illustrious like we're having to be in Japan and happened to go buy this I mean, I don't know if it's.

01:25:02
Speaker 1: It's it's the top level knife collection, and I forgot to give it time. No, I'm world famous for what kind of bullsh right?

01:25:16
Speaker 2: And no, I'm world famous for like collecting and buying things. And then I get home, you know when you get home on tour. So does he collect knives or swords or stuff? Is this what's he loves to cook? Like cooking is his thing?

01:25:32
Speaker 1: Oh? Really he cooks.

01:25:34
Speaker 2: People often laugh at me when I say he cooks better than he raps. That should tell you how good of a cookie is. Like he's I will put him against any Michelan chef, any grandmom. No, teris literally the best chef ever. And so all right, what have you had that he cooked that just knocked you out?

01:25:57
Speaker 1: You were like, man, I don't believe you did. This is crap?

01:26:00
Speaker 2: Are Like Terka's the person that will and I think it's again it's a cathartic act for him, Like Hill's two in the morning, He'll simmer his beef Wellington or whatever on a low thing and then come back four hours later and it's still He'll add the right red wine to the thing like he is the East top level, like that is that is his thing, but yeah, his his work with seafood is world famous. Well, you'll have to have some of my lasagna. Hey, I will gladly gladly particular. Look, I just want to tell you that probably of all the projects I've done with film, that this one well number one.

01:26:44
Speaker 1: This one's going to.

01:26:45
Speaker 2: Stick with me the most because of the method acting, kind of entry I had to do in the film. Like I felt like in order to tell this film, I had to become you guys.

01:26:58
Speaker 1: So I spent.

01:26:58
Speaker 2: Literally just seven months, like, oh, I've read every book. I was like, I went to Lebron and said, look, every book your father ever read, give me a list. I found out what you all did, like I needed to become a member of Earth Wind and Fire.

01:27:16
Speaker 1: Did you read any Napoleon Hill? Yeah? Oh absolutely.

01:27:19
Speaker 2: To this day, I meditate, I do affirmations, I all those things like this. This particular platform is tired of me talking about how much I've done that, But no, this actually saved my life, like I injured it really just like wanting to get to the master reels, like okay, now I got to do this project. I get to go to Sony and go through all the stems and hear the isolated drums and stuff. And I did, but really in order to understand you guys, because you know, you might be familiar with how particular a certain sect of black folk are when it comes to their spirituality.

01:28:06
Speaker 1: And if you're not really nailing Christianity.

01:28:09
Speaker 2: As fire and Brimstone as we knew it, then it's like, and I grew up in a kind of.

01:28:16
Speaker 1: Household.

01:28:17
Speaker 2: When it came to Earth, Wind and Fire album covers, where's that sign? I don't know that about that. I like the songs, but you know, the all known album cover has been debated by many ever and aunt.

01:28:31
Speaker 1: Man, look are you kidding? Right?

01:28:33
Speaker 2: And so one thing I wanted to do was just to spell cause again they were like that, don't look like that's Christian, Like that might be demonic, you know. And finally, understanding where you guys are coming from is probably the most life changing.

01:28:52
Speaker 1: So yeah, this actually did change my life.

01:28:54
Speaker 2: So I appreciate you one sharing your story to allowing me for the last two years to tell this story because really I want what I want people to take away from this is to dream in the most impossible time periods ever and we're in twenty twenty six.

01:29:13
Speaker 1: It can't get no more impossible than this.

01:29:16
Speaker 2: So this is the time where we plant seeds and establish what our future should be. And you're part of that story. And I thank you for coming on, man, Thank you for having me. Man, Thank you, Man. I didn't know we were finished. I had some more to say. Oh I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

01:29:33
Speaker 1: John, Thank you.

01:29:35
Speaker 2: I appreciate you coming, thank you, thank you for having thank you, thank you all right, thank you next time.

01:29:39
Speaker 1: Y'a'll see you. Yes.

01:29:44
Speaker 2: Quest Love Shows hosted by Me Mira Quest Loft Thompson. The executive producers are Sean g Brian Calhoun and Me. Produced by Britney Benjamin and Jacob Payne. Produced for Ihearten by an Old Brown, Edited by Alex Convoy. iHeart Video support by Mark Canton, Logos Graphics and animation by Nick Lowe. Additional support by Lance Core. Special thanks to Kathy Brown. Special thanks to Sugar Steve Mandel. Please subscribe, rate, me, view and share the Quest Love Show wherever. Stream your podcast to make sure you follow us on socials That's at q LS.

01:30:34
Speaker 1: Check out hundreds and hundreds of QLs episodes. Including the Quest.

01:30:38
Speaker 2: Love Supreme shows in our podcast archives. Quest Love Show is a production of iHeart Radio