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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and

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Speaker 1: we're back with part two in our series about healing waters,

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Speaker 1: the belief held by many people throughout history that you

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Speaker 1: could heal your body from illness and restore your health

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Speaker 1: by bathing or by immersing yourself, sometimes just in hot

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Speaker 1: or cold waters, sometimes in the waters of a special

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Speaker 1: spring or location. Now, in the last episode, we discuss

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Speaker 1: the prehistoric origins of bathing, as well as some evidence

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Speaker 1: of ideas that became attached to bathing in the ancient world,

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Speaker 1: for example, ritual and religious ideas about purity. You can

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Speaker 1: see this in the ritual bathing by priests in ancient

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Speaker 1: Egypt or as or ritual washing bait procedures outlined in

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Speaker 1: the Bible. And then also the segue into the belief

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Speaker 1: that became especially popular among the physicians of ancient Greece

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Speaker 1: and Rome that you could cure diseases by immersing the

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Speaker 1: body in hot or cold water, often though not always

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Speaker 1: connected to explanations based on the theory of the four

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Speaker 1: humors in today's episode, I wanted to kick things off

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Speaker 1: by returning to talk about a few more aspects of

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Speaker 1: a paper we discussed in the previous episode. This was

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Speaker 1: the paper Water and Spas in the Classical World in

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Speaker 1: the Journal Medical History nineteen ninety by Ralph Jackson, who

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Speaker 1: was at the time a scholar working for the Department

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Speaker 1: of Prehistoric and Romano British Antiquities at the British Museum

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Speaker 1: in London. Now, as this paper addresses not only beliefs

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Speaker 1: about the healing powers of bathing in water, but also

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Speaker 1: of specific dedicated spa locations, I got interested in the

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Speaker 1: origins of the English word spa, and it seems to

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Speaker 1: me that the most commonly accepted etymology of the word

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Speaker 1: today is that Spa is derived from the name of

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Speaker 1: a particular curative mineral spring resort in eastern Belgium, which

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Speaker 1: is called Spa. So Spa the common noun derives from Spa,

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Speaker 1: the proper noun, the name of the place, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, is a city that still exists today. You

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Speaker 1: can go to Spa, Belgium. And I saw on the

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia page that one of the violinists on the Titanic

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Speaker 1: was from Spa. Belgium, but the proper noun seems in

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Speaker 1: turn derived from a common noun in the Walloon language,

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Speaker 1: which is a Romance language spoken in eastern Belgium, and

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Speaker 1: the original noun there would have been spa, meaning a

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Speaker 1: fountain or perhaps also referring to a spring. Now, another

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Speaker 1: thing we talked about in the previous episode was a

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Speaker 1: number of names for healing by immersion in water and

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Speaker 1: related practices. So you have the idea of balneotherapy, that

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Speaker 1: is healing by bathing, often in mineral springs. Hydrotherapy a

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Speaker 1: more general term referring to all kinds of water based

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Speaker 1: treatments for disease. And I wanted to add to that

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Speaker 1: another one that is mentioned in this paper. This is

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Speaker 1: a phrase taken from what the Caesar Augustus did when

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Speaker 1: he was practicing some balneotherapy. He did a practice called

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Speaker 1: taking the waters. So in most cases that seems to

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Speaker 1: refer to, yeah, just immersion like bathing in waters, but

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Speaker 1: also maybe in some cases drinking the waters. And so

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Speaker 1: I like that because it sounds kind of like you're

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Speaker 1: taking the waters, almost like you take a pill. But

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Speaker 1: it also makes me think of the competitive aspect referenced

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Speaker 1: by plenty of the elder when he talks about people

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Speaker 1: bragging about how much of the thermal springs they can take,

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Speaker 1: either like you know, I can soak in this way

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Speaker 1: too long, I can soak in there so long, and

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Speaker 1: then also by allegedly drinking so much from the sulfurous

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Speaker 1: springs that you could no longer see their jewelry because

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Speaker 1: their skin would close over their rings. Sounds like an

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Speaker 1: exaggeration to me, or at least I hope. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: I've seen this pop up with various springs we've been

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Speaker 1: looking at in our research, where there will be traditions

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Speaker 1: of bathing or soaking in the waters, but also of

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Speaker 1: drinking the waters. So it seems like these two are

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Speaker 1: easily in us. It's good enough for the epidermis, is

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Speaker 1: good enough for the digestive track. I guess yeah. It

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Speaker 1: invites kind of gross questions, like in what order do

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Speaker 1: you do those two things? Well, I mean, these are

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Speaker 1: the source of questions one I always have to ask

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Speaker 1: about one's water supply. I guess, well, I guess and

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Speaker 1: since that yes, every glass of water you drink contains

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Speaker 1: water that you know was poop and pea and everything else.

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Speaker 1: The water cycle just continues around the world, but at

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Speaker 1: least we hope today that water goes through some kind

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Speaker 1: of purification process before you can drink it. I'm just imagining,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, people soaking in sulfur springs and then

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Speaker 1: just scooping that ride up on and like a child

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Speaker 1: in about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you have that one

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Speaker 1: to look forward to as well. Don't drink the bathwater.

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Speaker 1: See how many times you get to say that? Real

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Speaker 1: quick though, I was thinking about this, I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of this is what we're talking about here. It

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Speaker 1: kind of comes down to a few different realities that

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Speaker 1: are worth pointing out. One, we need water, and two

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Speaker 1: sources of water in the world are not all equal.

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Speaker 1: There are better sources than others, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the human experience has has has had to do with

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what are the best sources and

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of this, you could maybe even

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Speaker 1: look at it is just kind of like a human

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Speaker 1: over complication of that basic scenario, like I want the

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Speaker 1: best water for me, the water that's not going to

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Speaker 1: make me sick, the water that's going to ensure my

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Speaker 1: continued life, and then we kind of build up everything

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Speaker 1: on top of that. Well, yeah, that's exactly right. And

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Speaker 1: this brings us back to the next thing from this

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Speaker 1: paper I wanted to talk about, which is when we

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Speaker 1: discussed Jackson last time, we were talking about more general

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Speaker 1: ancient Greek and Roman beliefs about the healing powers of bathing,

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Speaker 1: but I mentioned there were also beliefs about the medicinal

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Speaker 1: virtues of specific water sources, either for bathing or drinking,

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Speaker 1: or sometimes both, and Jackson lists a number of examples

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Speaker 1: of this, And of course Plenty talked about specific waters

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Speaker 1: in the sense of waters with specific properties, so maybe

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Speaker 1: a sulfur springs versus alum springs and the different ailments

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Speaker 1: that those could address. But here you can actually get

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Speaker 1: into specific localities. So a few mentioned in Jackson's paper.

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Speaker 1: One is the aqui Cutility, which is a mineral spring

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Speaker 1: northeast of the city of Rome. Both Plenty and Kelsus

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Speaker 1: mentioned the cold waters of the spring as having the

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Speaker 1: power to cure stomach disorders. In particular, Jackson also mentions

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Speaker 1: the sulfur springs of aqui Abulee. This is near the

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Speaker 1: town of tiv also northeast of Rome, and Jackson writes

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Speaker 1: quote described by Vitruvius, Strabo, and Marshall, recommended by Plenty

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Speaker 1: for the healing of wounds, and frequented by Augustus when

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Speaker 1: he was troubled with rheumatism. But one of the most

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Speaker 1: famous locations in the ancient Roman world for bathing was

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Speaker 1: the facilities in the city of bay Ye, which is

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Speaker 1: near Naples, famous for its baths fed by hot springs,

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Speaker 1: and Jackson writes quote Kelsus recommended the sulfurous sweat baths

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Speaker 1: in the myrtle groves above bay. Strabo characterized the place

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Speaker 1: by its hot springs that were quotes suited both to

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Speaker 1: the taste of the fastidious and to the cure of disease,

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Speaker 1: and Plenty believed that quote nowhere is water more bountiful

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Speaker 1: than in the bay of Baye, or with more variety

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Speaker 1: of relief, meaning relief from disease. However, Baye and its

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Speaker 1: hot baths interestingly combined multiple reputation, so it was a

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Speaker 1: place of healing from disease, but it also had a

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Speaker 1: reputation as sort of a vice magnet or a party town.

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Speaker 1: So imagine what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. But

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Speaker 1: for ancient Rome, which was already had, you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of a kind of baseline vegasiness to it. You get

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Speaker 1: you get hints of this reputation in the writings of

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Speaker 1: ancient authors. For example, Marshall described a story of a

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Speaker 1: virtuous woman who went to Baye and while she was there,

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Speaker 1: you know, she hung out in the baths and then

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Speaker 1: ended up deciding to leave her husband for a youth

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Speaker 1: that she met there. And Marshall Wrights quote she arrived

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Speaker 1: a penelope and departed a Helen, which very judgy but

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Speaker 1: gives you gives you an idea of what they thought. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and this strikes to something that's kind

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Speaker 1: of key to the the overall history of certainly baths

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Speaker 1: and spas in European history, like that at times they

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Speaker 1: become morally suspect, and that can of course lead to

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Speaker 1: the downfall of various bath and spat cultures in different areas. Sure,

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Speaker 1: and of course it was also a place this is

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Speaker 1: another aspect of the kind of the Vegas equality of it.

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Speaker 1: It was a place of opulence and extravagance for the rich,

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Speaker 1: hosting private villas of emperors, fancy spa facilities that had

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Speaker 1: a lot of amenities. Jackson writes quote. Nevertheless, a vast

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Speaker 1: sector of baths, imposing buildings to enclose the hot springs

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Speaker 1: and sulfurous vapors. Grandiose rooms and extensive loggias and porticos

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Speaker 1: have all been identified in the multi level complex terraced

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Speaker 1: into the volcanic slope above the bay and Gulf, and

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Speaker 1: the paper goes on to describe a number of sort

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Speaker 1: of individual buildings here. One misleadingly named the Temple of Mercury,

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Speaker 1: misleading because it appears to not actually have been a

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Speaker 1: temple but a place for soaking in hot spa waters.

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Speaker 1: And this was this gigantic rotunda that was again built

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Speaker 1: up on the the volcanic slope, and it had these

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Speaker 1: big windows to let light in from the top, but

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Speaker 1: also to ventilate these sulfurous fumes. And it was said

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Speaker 1: to in some ways resentable the design of Hadrian's pantheon.

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Speaker 1: Another interesting thing about the area of bay is that

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Speaker 1: there have been found artifacts from the time which are

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Speaker 1: glass bottles that have engravings on them that are supposed

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Speaker 1: to depict this area, the region of Bayee like. There

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Speaker 1: was one example sited in the paper and included on

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Speaker 1: a plate that has all these engravings on the glass

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Speaker 1: that is described as a quote bulbous glass bottle that

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Speaker 1: was found in North Africa, and it has like these

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Speaker 1: drawings that are supposed to represent this area near Naples.

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Speaker 1: And it's thought that maybe these were glass bottles where

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Speaker 1: the water from Bayee was bottled so people could take

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Speaker 1: it away as a souvenir and I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: just hang onto it or drink it later or something.

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Speaker 1: That's that's fascinating. And of course we still see that

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Speaker 1: today with various waters that even if they're not considered sacred,

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Speaker 1: and in many cases they are still considered sacred at

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Speaker 1: the very least. It's it's it's some sort of a

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Speaker 1: curio you take home with you, some sort of keepsake

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Speaker 1: of a trip. Yeah uh. Now, though most were not

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Speaker 1: as luxurious as the facilities of bay which were for

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Speaker 1: for for the rich and powerful, many regions of the

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire had their own spa facilities, even kind of

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Speaker 1: far flung regions that were far away from the imperial center.

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Speaker 1: Jackson mentions, especially regions where the locals practiced Celtic religions.

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Speaker 1: So this would have included parts of Gaul, which is

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Speaker 1: sort of modern day France in Germany because water deities

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Speaker 1: in Celtic mythology held a special importance. And this also

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Speaker 1: brings up an association between the development of Roman baths

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Speaker 1: or spas and the presence of the Roman military in

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Speaker 1: places far away from from Rome itself, from the imperial core.

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Speaker 1: When the legion moved in, this would often lead to

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Speaker 1: the development of a spa resort at a natural thermal spring,

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Speaker 1: and a spa would become a place for wounded soldiers

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Speaker 1: to heal, or a place for recreation and sort of

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Speaker 1: maintenance of good health among the ranks. And Jackson mentions that,

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Speaker 1: so you know, the Romans come in, their military comes

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Speaker 1: in and they build a spa. That this was not

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Speaker 1: done out of a sense of kind heartedness to the locals,

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Speaker 1: like look what we're doing for you. It was out

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Speaker 1: of self interest, because it was for the Roman troops,

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Speaker 1: or at least for their benefit, even if it was

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Speaker 1: also open to locals. But certainly it does speak to

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Speaker 1: the value that the Romans placed on this spa culture. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And it's also interesting how that cultural importance means it

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Speaker 1: gets sort of wrapped up in religious ideas as well,

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Speaker 1: because Jackson writes that under Roman rule. In one of

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Speaker 1: these areas of the empire, you build a spa, and

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Speaker 1: a deity of the local religion would usually be conflated

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Speaker 1: with a Greco Roman deity that had similar powers or patronage,

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Speaker 1: and thus you'd get situations like you had in the

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Speaker 1: German city of Aachen, where the local Celtic deity Granis

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Speaker 1: was combined with the Greco Roman figure of Apollo the Healer,

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Speaker 1: and thus the composite cult figure Apollo Granis is born

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Speaker 1: and rules over the local hot springs the spa there.

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Speaker 1: And this is interesting because it helps give you a

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Speaker 1: sense of on the ground how these spas were used.

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Speaker 1: Jackson includes an image from an early second century votive

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Speaker 1: altar found near Achen, appearing to depict Apollo Granis. Here

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Speaker 1: this composite figure of the Greco Roman and the Celtic deity,

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Speaker 1: and in describing it, Jackson writes, quote, the enthroned god

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Speaker 1: holds a liar and a plectrum to musical instruments, and

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Speaker 1: carries his bow and quiver of arrows over his right shoulder.

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Speaker 1: An inscription records that the altar was dedicated in fulfillment

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Speaker 1: of a vow by l latinious Massaire, a native of

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Speaker 1: Verona and senior officer or Prefectus castorum of the ninth Legion,

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Speaker 1: who may have been restored to health at the spa.

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Speaker 1: So you get healed at the spa, that may mean

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Speaker 1: that you have to now make a donation there. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you made a vow to the local deity and said, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if these waters heal my wound or heal my sickness,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be the sponsor of

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Speaker 1: this altar or something. Now, this paper also gets into

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Speaker 1: another major spa location, a very historically important and interesting

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Speaker 1: one at Bath in England. But I think I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: save that one for the next episode in the series

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Speaker 1: because that brings up its own fascinating mysteries and histories.

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Speaker 1: So we'll come back to Bath now for the next

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Speaker 1: example we're going to look at here. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: hit on something from Irish tradition, in part because the

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Speaker 1: week this episode is coming out, it's the week of

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Speaker 1: Saint Patrick's Day, and I'd like to spend my research

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Speaker 1: time a little bit on something Ireland related. And I

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Speaker 1: found a great example in the waters of Leek Slip Spa.

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Speaker 1: Now you'll find numerous thermal springs in Ireland, and you

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Speaker 1: also find this tradition of healing wells and holy wells

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Speaker 1: that you also see throughout England. You know, you'll find

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Speaker 1: sacred wells in Ireland as well, different wells and different

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Speaker 1: springs or attribute to different healing properties for different maladies.

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Speaker 1: And you'll also find them connected to such figures as

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Speaker 1: Saint Patrick, but also to older gods and goddesses of

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Speaker 1: Irish tradition. But at any rate, balneotherapeutic medicine in Ireland

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Speaker 1: was especially big in the seventeenth, eighteenth and at least

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Speaker 1: the early nineteenth centuries. Yes, And this sort of correlates

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Speaker 1: with how it seems that after the Roman so you know,

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Speaker 1: Greco Roman world, medical treatments involving bathing or immersion were

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Speaker 1: very popular, and it seems that kind of declined later

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Speaker 1: in the Roman Empire and was again comparatively rare through

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Speaker 1: the early Middle Ages. But then there was sort of

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Speaker 1: a resurgence in interest in bath culture and in medicine

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Speaker 1: involving bathing in the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance,

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Speaker 1: and then there was another big rush for it. I

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Speaker 1: think maybe in the eighteenth and nineteenth century. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: a lot of this. You see the fads come and

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Speaker 1: go right now, specifically with leak Slip here. This is

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Speaker 1: located near the town of leak Slip in northeast Ireland.

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Speaker 1: It's spelled l ei x LP, and I understand that

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Speaker 1: this area in general is a major Irish water source,

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Speaker 1: or at least there are various videos online about the

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Speaker 1: importance of the very so water operations located in this region.

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Speaker 1: This particular spa, however, was apparently it's not one that

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Speaker 1: has like a deep history in and on itself, or

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Speaker 1: at least that doesn't seem to be the case based

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Speaker 1: on the research I was looking at. Apparently the spa

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Speaker 1: was uncovered in seventeen ninety three by workmen digging the

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Speaker 1: Royal Canal. They discovered this spring and then as they

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Speaker 1: were developing everything, they ended up building it out into

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Speaker 1: kind of a Romanesque spa, and it was apparently quite

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Speaker 1: popular for a good run there, but then it fell

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Speaker 1: out of use steering the early nineteenth century, and based

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Speaker 1: on what it was reading, it was like for a

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Speaker 1: while it was just kind of in ruins, and I

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Speaker 1: think this probably lines up was just sort of a

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Speaker 1: general dip in the popularity of balteotherapeutic medicine. Now, when

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Speaker 1: you initially start reading about the leak slip Spa, you know,

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Speaker 1: it basically sounds like any other spa situation you might

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Speaker 1: be looking at, you know, sulfurous waters that were thought

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Speaker 1: to have healing properties, Romanesque baths catering to folks, and

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Speaker 1: of such healing. But what really caught my attention is

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Speaker 1: that in this particular story anyway, there is also a worm.

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Speaker 1: A worm. Yes. So as we move into this id

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Speaker 1: to turn to the writings of Caesar Oddway, who lists

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Speaker 1: seventeen eighty through eighteen forty two. He talks about this

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Speaker 1: in his eighteen thirty nine book A Tour in conn It,

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Speaker 1: and he describes leak slip Spa as follows. And I

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Speaker 1: have to warn this is all just part of a

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Speaker 1: gigantic run on sentence that I guess was just the

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Speaker 1: style in those days. Right. I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: can summon the energy to give it proper justice. I

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Speaker 1: have faith, Oddway writes, it is not only a beautiful

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Speaker 1: but an extraordinary spring. For if you believe all the neighbors,

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Speaker 1: not a fish or frog will live in its waters.

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Speaker 1: And though there be a fluculent, rusty colored ochreous matter

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Speaker 1: constantly rising to the surface of the well, exactly similar

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Speaker 1: to that which is found in spring, strongly impregnated with iron.

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Speaker 1: Yet no test, either gallic acid or prussiate of potash,

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Speaker 1: can identify any iron. But in the center of this

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Speaker 1: fluculent matter is found a very red little worm, about

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Speaker 1: half an inch long, which all those who who have

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Speaker 1: still faith in the celebrity of the well say, is

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Speaker 1: the sovereignest remedy alive for a sore leg. Nay more,

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Speaker 1: let anyone who has drank overnight from fifteen to twenty

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Speaker 1: tumblers of punch, and whose head is so hot that

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Speaker 1: it makes the water fizz into which it is plunged,

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Speaker 1: Let him, I say, but take a quart or two

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Speaker 1: of the water of this spring on the following morning,

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Speaker 1: and he will lose all his whiskey fever and walk

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Speaker 1: home as cool as a cucumber. I assure you, gentle reader,

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Speaker 1: I have seen Sundry making the experiment, and I actually

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Speaker 1: saw them afterwards. Sober WHOA I want to read the

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Speaker 1: rest of this guy's book. Yeah, like I say, it

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Speaker 1: has a great energy to it so to refresh. Oddway

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Speaker 1: is telling us that nothing else lives in these waters,

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Speaker 1: but they seem like iron infused waters despite negative testing,

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Speaker 1: and that flocculation occurs, creating a kind of wool like

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Speaker 1: coagulation on top of the water in which you'll find

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Speaker 1: tiny red worms. These waters will cure you of your

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Speaker 1: sore leg or your punch inflicted hangover. Either. That is

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Speaker 1: a great story. And this did make me look up flocculent. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So flocculent means kind of like coagulant. It means making

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Speaker 1: particles clump together. Didn't a new word for the vocab. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I think, you know, like sometimes I guess you

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Speaker 1: see it with like the kind of foaminess on top

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Speaker 1: of like flowing waters where they kind of like get

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Speaker 1: kind of dead ended in a particular part of the stream.

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Speaker 1: That kind of thing, or at least that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: picturing in my head. Okay, But when he's talking about

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Speaker 1: the worm, I can't tell does he mean literally a worm,

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Speaker 1: like a biological organism a worm, or does he mean

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Speaker 1: like a worm like clump of something. He appears to

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Speaker 1: mean an actual worm, because I found plenty of other

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Speaker 1: references to it. These details that I'm about to read

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Speaker 1: are from a twenty twenty one source survey of the

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Speaker 1: heritage of Holy Wells and County killedare by Laughlin at

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Speaker 1: All for Ireland's Archeology Plan Heritage Solutions. Quote. A small

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Speaker 1: worm lived in the scum on the top of the

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Speaker 1: pond and people used to put it between two pieces

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Speaker 1: of cloth and rub it to their eyes as a

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Speaker 1: cure for weak eyes. Some people left the pieces of

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Speaker 1: cloth on the briars beside the well, but others didn't

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Speaker 1: as there was no saint associated with the well. So

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Speaker 1: what there's no saint there to scold you into leaving

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Speaker 1: the pieces of cloth on the briars beside the well,

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Speaker 1: so you would just steal the cloth. I'm less sure

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Speaker 1: about what they're getting at with that, but okay, it's

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Speaker 1: hard for me to get past the idea that, okay,

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Speaker 1: not only yes, are there tiny red worms in these

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Speaker 1: thermals rings, but you also are going to essentially squeeze

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Speaker 1: them into your eyeballs or something like that, something way

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Speaker 1: too close to that to initially said, well with me,

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Speaker 1: So you're what, you're squeezing out the little red worm

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Speaker 1: juice into your eyes and that cures their weakness, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and it's maybe going through the cloth a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't find much in the way of other references

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Speaker 1: to that particular process, but still it seems to be

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Speaker 1: the case that there are there are multiple accounts of

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Speaker 1: the red worms here. So setting aside any actual curative

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Speaker 1: effects of the worms, you know what might they be. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: to live in such an environment, you need some matter

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Speaker 1: of thermophile or extremophile organism, and we know that there

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Speaker 1: are plenty of examples of those sorts of organisms, creatures

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Speaker 1: that are able to thrive in heated waters, for example.

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Speaker 1: But I was looking around and there there are plenty

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Speaker 1: of accounts of red worms and also things described as

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Speaker 1: worms living in thermal spring environments around the world, with

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Speaker 1: some certainly endemic to particular springs or immediate environments, and

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Speaker 1: others more sort of widespread. For example CT Brews and

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Speaker 1: Animal Life in Hot Springs, published in nineteen twenty seven

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Speaker 1: in the Quarterly Review of Biology. Rights of the blood

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Speaker 1: worms that are found in particular waters understood at least

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Speaker 1: by this author, to be the larval form of various midges,

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00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: and that while they might occur in various waters. The

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Speaker 1: author described having encountered them in a shallow thermal pool

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Speaker 1: at Yellowstone National Park. Oh okay, so it may so,

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Speaker 1: this so called worm may have not been permanently a worm,

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Speaker 1: but one of the stages of life of another organism,

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Speaker 1: maybe the larval form of like of a type of fly. Exactly. Yeah,

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00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: And you can look up images at this These are

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00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: well documented. But they're yeah, they're not true worms. They

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00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: have legs, they're they're a larva now there. But still

399
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: that doesn't solve everything because there are also sulfur cave

400
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: worms to consider. There is a recent study of these

401
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: creatures at Sulfur Cave and Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Thousands of

402
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 1: these worms live in the waters there, and Aaron Scott

403
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: at All for MPR describe them as follows in September

404
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two. Quote. The worm blobs look like

405
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: dark red sea and enemies wriggling in the stream bed.

406
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: The individual worms are around one inch long then a

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Speaker 1: pencil lead, and live off the bacteria in the cave,

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00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: which in turn lives off the sulfur. See that's already

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00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: checking off some boxes there. Yeah. Yeah, Now, the worms

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Speaker 1: in this case dubbed limnodrillis sulfur incests seem endemic to

411
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: this particular thermal spring, but one of its relatives, limnodrillis hoffmeistory,

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00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: is also red in color and is very tough, able

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Speaker 1: to live in polluted waters that other organisms can handle.

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00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: And it's very widespread and is found in Ireland. Oh Okay,

415
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: so another candidate right right now. Interesting. In either case,

416
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: the red coloration of the worm or larva is due

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00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: to hemoglobin molecules in the organism. Both midge larva and

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00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: in the worms in question here are sometimes called blood worms.

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00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: They're they're both referred to as blood worms, and I

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00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: found an article about this with the Missouri Department of

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00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: Conservation pointing out, hey, if you're talking about blood worms,

422
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: you might be talking about a larva. You might be

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Speaker 1: talking about a particular type of worm. Both good for

424
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: weak guys. In either case, though, I would say, don't

425
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: go finding tiny red worms or larva and squeezing them

426
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: into your eyeballs. I looked around to try to find

427
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: any details on folk remedies or folk medicine traditions that

428
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: involved squeezing red worms into your eyes and or in

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00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: any way really using them medicinally, and I could not

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00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: find anything. Granted, that's exactly the sort of thing that

431
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: in some cases maybe lost to history. Though. Yeah, I

432
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: think there are tons of full crimidies. I think that

433
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 1: never or only barely make it into print. Yeah. Now,

434
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: I did run across one article concerning mysterious cattle diseases

435
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: kind of a throwback to our Halloween episodes. Oh. I

436
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 1: had to think for a second, but yes, we in

437
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: past October we did a couple of different livestock malady

438
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: episode series. We did the stuff on the cattle mutilation

439
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: panic of the nineteen seventies and on the traditional beliefs

440
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: about elf shot, where people thought that the sort of

441
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: subtle folk were using spiritual weapons to harm their livestock. Yeah,

442
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: I found in this case, it was an article from

443
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen titled the cattle disease called Conage and its

444
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: Traditional cure by Amulets and Charms. And this was by

445
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: William F. D. This miss Kane published in the Journal

446
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 1: of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland nineteen fourteen.

447
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: So the author here notes that the actual symptoms of

448
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: the disease vary and it's basically one of these situations

449
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: where you have kind of a catch all term that's

450
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: referring to probably different ailments in different species, and at

451
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: least in some cases it was attributed to some sort

452
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: of biting insect, but also to the consumption of some

453
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: sort of worm. Now the worm that is blamed. It

454
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: seems like accounts vary. There's like one account saying it's

455
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: some sort of a black worm, which obviously isn't what

456
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, but there's at least some cases

457
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: where they refer to a tiny red worm as being

458
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: a potential cause of the ailment, and so the author

459
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: here is citing one of these these these accounts, there's

460
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: a discussion of quote, a very small worm as red

461
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: as scarlet and found in the height of summer and

462
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: never found at the time of the year when the

463
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: canag is seen. The cited source indicates of the scarlet

464
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: worm does not cause canag. He stresses is treated via bloodletting,

465
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: but the illness cause by ingesting the scarlet worm is

466
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 1: said to cause the head to swell, and then you

467
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: cure it by reaching inside the cow's mouth and squeezing

468
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: or popping a bladder that has grown at the root

469
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: of the tongue, and I I was just kind of

470
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: nodding my head to this. There's like, okay, I guess

471
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: that's a thing that happens. But the author here cites

472
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: a Professor Mason of Dublin quote, I think the scarlet

473
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: tiny worm of the writer is, with little doubt, the

474
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: well known bloodworm frequent in shallow water in summer, and

475
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: is the larva of the chironomous, a kind of crane fly,

476
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: a perfectly innocuous animal. And then Mason seems to just

477
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: dismiss this bladder bursting cure as a quack cure, similar

478
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: to one that was done by quack doctors that would

479
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: cure an animal by bursting internal bladders on the spine.

480
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: So some sort of you know, some sort of like

481
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: a fake healing technique. I don't know if this is

482
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: a solid accusation that the professor is making, or if

483
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: there maybe there was some sort of folk remedy in

484
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: play and some sort of like swelling on the back

485
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: of the tongue. But Professor Mason seems to be saying like,

486
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, that's just some quack trying to you know,

487
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: cheat you out of a few coins by reaching down

488
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: your cow's throat. So this might be more akin to

489
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: curing your cattle of elf shot by having them like

490
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: eat fairy crabs and then poking them with a special

491
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: knife for something. Yeah, it's kind of interesting to think about.

492
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: Again with this paper, it deals in part with the

493
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: use of amulets to cure mysterious ailments, but there are

494
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: other ways to supernaturally address a particular ailment than another.

495
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: Note about the blood worm midge larva. Here, they are

496
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: consumed all the time by trout so and I believe

497
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: you can actually get them as bait as well. So

498
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: perhaps some of our anglers out there have some experience

499
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: with these blood worms flucculent fly fishers let us know. Yeah,

500
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: and they seem harmless. I think some people can have

501
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: allergic reactions to them. I saw a twenty thirteen paper

502
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: about this, but again I wasn't able to turn up

503
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: anything about their use in folk medicine or the use

504
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: of the other type of organism that is sometimes referred

505
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: to as a blood worm having any kind of role

506
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: in folk medicine. So again, don't go squirting worms into

507
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: your eyes. But I think it is fascinating because we

508
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: have a situation here where yeah, there's the more traditional

509
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: sort of sulfur springs scenario going on, but then this

510
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: added level of, oh, there's something about the things that

511
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: live in the spring water, there's something about the organisms

512
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: in it that have some reputed beneficial health effect. Yeah,

513
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: And I certainly haven't read anything about that in the

514
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: in like the ancient Roman context or anything. Yeah, but

515
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: it did end up reminding me of another example of

516
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: supposed therapeutic waters with organisms that live in them, in

517
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: which in cases where at least some traditions value the

518
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: presence of the organisms themselves, which leads us to the

519
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: world of fish. So, and some of you may know

520
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: exactly where this is going, But my earliest exposure to

521
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: anything out there about this about there being fish in

522
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: therapeutic waters and the fish or the therapeutic part of

523
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: the immersion experience, I mean, the most I think that

524
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: it ever happened is I've maybe been occasionally nibbled by

525
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: a fish in a lake or at the beach. But

526
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and nine, my wife and I

527
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 1: visited Arawan National Park in Thailand and toured Arawan Falls.

528
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: These are beautiful waters, so basically you have just like

529
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: a whole system of waterfalls with these very clear pools

530
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: and between them that have kind of like this blue appearance,

531
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: very beautiful, and their fish in those pools, and you

532
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: were encouraged to, you know, come up, dip your feet,

533
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: to take your shoes off, put your get your feet

534
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: in those waters, and then the fish will come up

535
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: and nibble on the dead skin of your feet, which tickles.

536
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: But in some cases you're saying, some people believe there

537
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: to be health consequences of this kind of thing. Right

538
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: right now, I don't know specifically about the tie scenario,

539
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: if there if there's any kind of like traditional tie

540
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: medicinal understanding of these fish. If memory serves the guides

541
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: on this particular trip, they just made reference to it

542
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: being a pedicure there. I don't remember therere being any

543
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: kind of medical argument made for it. But I know

544
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: this is probably ringing about with a number of people

545
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: out there, because there is this wider spread use of

546
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: supposed fish pedicure services where you've got to go to

547
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: some sort of a pedicure business and you will put

548
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: your feet into a tank that has fish in it,

549
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: and the fish will eat the dead skin off of

550
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: your feet once again, it seems like a thing that's

551
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: unusual and interesting enough that a lot of people, I

552
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: bet would do it just for the novel experience, even

553
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: if it doesn't, you know, do much better than a

554
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: pumice stone for getting dead skin off your foot. Yeah. Now,

555
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what species of fish this was

556
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: that I encountered in Thailand again as a while back,

557
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: and I didn't take notes at the time. I'm not

558
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: sure if they mentioned a specific species, but I see

559
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: some references online and these are like not papers or anything,

560
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: but just like reviews and so forth, referring to it

561
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: being a gara rufa or a gara rufa I guess

562
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: more more accurately. And this is a particular This is

563
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: the fish that is often encountered in these supposed fish

564
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: pedicure services that you'll encounter some places. They're illegal in

565
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: some places, and I'm not recommending you go out and

566
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: try them. Uh, and we'll come We'll come back to

567
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: why in in a minute here. But yeah, I saw

568
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: some references to it being this gara rufa, but those

569
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: are at least I understand to be native to Western Asia.

570
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure if this could be a situation

571
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: where they could potentially even be invasive there, because I

572
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: was reading on the US Fish and Wildlife Service website

573
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: that they're rated as like a low uncertain invasive risk.

574
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm not sure if this could even conceivably

575
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: be the same species, but research indicates that there are

576
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: definitely are other Gara species, and there are Gara species

577
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: in Thailand. They're at least three. There's a one that's

578
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: called Gara fluviatilis, and this seems to reside in the

579
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: same general area that I'm talking about here. So if

580
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: I if I had to just guess at all of

581
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: this and both ultimately all this is would be a

582
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: gas Based on some of the things I was reading,

583
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: I would say, maybe it's that species, but I just

584
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: don't know for sure. But the Gara rufa has certainly

585
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: traveled around the globe via the fish pedicure industry, and

586
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: I know I know a number of you've probably caught

587
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: wind of this one way or another. The idea being

588
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: that you go to this business, to a business, you

589
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: immerse your feet into a tank full of these fish,

590
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: and they nibble away at the dead skin on your feet,

591
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: like revealing like you brighter or more vibrant skin. I

592
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: don't know why I thought you were going to say

593
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: the face of God. You know, it's we talk many

594
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: We've just spoken many times on the show about situations

595
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: where there's some sort of like especially in oceanic environments,

596
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: where there's some sort of a grooming species that that

597
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 1: helps out another animal. I mean, most recently we talked

598
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: about the whale lice on whales and how they are

599
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: essentially doing the same thing. But to be clear, when

600
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about about it being a pedicure service that

601
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: you're encountering, like in a tank under a table, that

602
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: is not a natural environment scenario. This is a very

603
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: augmented scenario, and they're various issues to be had with it. Yeah, definitely, Yeah,

604
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: I'm one hand potential sanitation concerns, but then also ethical

605
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: concerns as well concerning the fish, and as a result, yeah,

606
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: it's banned in many places. So yes, there are other

607
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: gara fish. But the Gara rufa is native to the

608
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: Middle East, particularly parts of Jordan, Syria, and Turkey, and

609
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: in the wild they feed on detritus, algae and tiny animals,

610
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: but in the absence of better food sources, they will

611
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: feed on dead skin. So the alleged origin of the

612
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: fish pedicure is in most of the literature we're looking

613
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: at is the Kangle Hot Spring in Turkey. Now, again

614
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about hot springs in an area long known

615
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: to human beings, so it's likely that these springs were

616
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: known and utilized for all the reasons humans have visited

617
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: thermal springs throughout their history. And though while the fish

618
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: were certainly here, they were certainly present in this location,

619
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: it seems things have changed in the last hundred years

620
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: or so, one hundred years plus. So there's a two

621
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: thousand and seven Scientific American paper. This is one I

622
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: think you turned up and sent me Joe, titled fish

623
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: that goes in Deep And I guess it's not so

624
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: much an article. It's kind of a short bit. It

625
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: was just a short, little snippet article, but it had

626
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: a very interesting detail in it. Yes, yeah, it adds

627
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: a little bit of historical detail that I was having

628
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: trouble finding in other studies. Quote, these fish have acquired

629
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: a taste for humans, largely because they have little choice.

630
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: The spring is too hot to sustain enough algae and

631
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 1: plankton to feed them all In the past, the fish

632
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: were able to move between the spring and a creek

633
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 1: that runs nearby, but after learning of a story about

634
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: a local shepherd whose wounded leg healed after being dipped

635
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: into the spring in nineteen seventeen, builders walled off the

636
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: spring from the creek in the nineteen fifties to preserve

637
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: a captive school. A Turkish family has now constructed a hotel,

638
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: villas and a playground, and markets the resort to Sorias's patients. Now,

639
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: I came across this short SIAM article because we were

640
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: looking at papers that seemed to be focused on the

641
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: question of is this treatment actually effective or not for psoriasis.

642
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: It seems obviously this is a form of alternative medicine.

643
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: Zo I don't know if I have an opinion or

644
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 1: not on whether there's any evidence this is actually useful

645
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: for psoriasis. I guess I would have my doubts. But

646
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: the fascinating thing to me was the thing about like

647
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: enclosing this fish population that used to go back and

648
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: forth but apparently now is stuck in the pool. Yes,

649
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: and would not would would otherwise maybe not eat dead

650
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: skin off of people's feet. But given that it is

651
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: an altered environment, they are encouraged to do so due

652
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: to the lack of other food sources. Still, I think

653
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: the basic scenario here wrote what it reveals about the

654
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: natural environment that has been augmented. This does kind of

655
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: line up with the Thailand scenario where again, in that

656
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: Thailand scenario yet various clear pools that were connected by

657
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: multiple cascading waterfalls. So sort of these kind of like

658
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: traps of small aquatic habitats that are connected. Um, but

659
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: you can see why you might end up with the

660
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: population of fish in a given pool that are that

661
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: are hungry, that have maybe exhausted what they can eat,

662
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: and are then happy to check out anything that is introduced.

663
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: So advocates of this treatment, sometimes called ichyotherapy, they touted

664
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: as either a general cosmetic pedicure sort of procedure or

665
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: as a treatment for skin ailments such as psoriasis. Again,

666
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: we're not going to weigh in too much on the

667
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: ups and downs of this. This this is getting into

668
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: the area of alternative medicine. But but certainly when you're

669
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: dealing with the fish take environment version of it, there

670
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 1: are some some definite reasons to stay clear of it. Anyway,

671
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: in both of these cases, we have the blood worms,

672
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: we have these these little fish that nipple your toes.

673
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: These are both situations where we have spring waters that

674
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: are noted for their health inefits in part or entirely

675
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: due to the organisms that live in them, the animals

676
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: that live in them. And I think it leads at

677
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: least worth noting that thermal springs continue to be of

678
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: interest to scientists because of potential extreme of file organisms

679
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: that might live there that also might reveal some sort

680
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: of unique antibiotic discoveries. Though I don't think this is

681
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: the sort of thing that they merely bathing in the

682
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: waters would unlock for a person, right. It would be

683
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: more that, like the organisms there are useful for research

684
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: on antibiotics, not that like you're going to cure your diseases,

685
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: but just by getting in the water. Yeah, not that

686
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's making those claims within against the

687
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: exact sort of claims that could end up being made

688
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: about a given spring, like bathe in the extreme of

689
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: file waters of extremofile springs unlock the unknown antibiotics for

690
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: your own well being, that sort of thing. Well, the

691
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: hot spring blood worms and the hot spring fish, I

692
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: did not imagine this at all as an angle we

693
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: would end up going down. But this has been fascinating

694
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: and our series on the Healing Waters will have to

695
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: continue with at least one more episode, maybe a couple

696
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: more next week. There's a lot more interesting stuff to

697
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: talk about, of course, with a lot of the alleged

698
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: cure as we've been talking about up to this point,

699
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: probably the majority of them. If there was an effect,

700
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: it may have been a placebo effect, but there may

701
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: actually be some cases where there's pretty good evidence of

702
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: balneotherapy of various kinds, even in particular spring waters, having

703
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: an actual, direct mechanistic effect on healing certain illnesses. And

704
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: if that is the case, we're we're gonna talk about

705
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 1: some examples of that next time. Yeah, so be sure

706
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: to join us for that discussion. There's more strange stuff

707
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 1: in the Healing Waters. It'll be floculent, yes, yes, don't

708
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: drink the flaculent waters. Don't drink the bath water. All right. Well,

709
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: as we close it out here, want to remind everybody

710
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: that are core episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind.

711
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: You'll find them on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff

712
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: to Blow your podcast feed on Monday's we do listener Mail.

713
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form artifactor month to Fact.

714
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: On Fridays, we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time

715
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: to set aside most serious concerns and just talk about

716
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: a weird film. Huge thanks to our audio producer J J. Paseway.

717
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

718
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

719
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

720
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

721
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

722
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio

723
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: with the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening

724
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows,