Speaker 1: Fine down with Janet Kramer and Michael Cosson and I
Speaker 1: heard radio and People's Choice Awards nominated podcast. Is that
Speaker 1: like a full moon or something or did it just happen?
Speaker 1: It just happened. Oh, that's right, because we were looking
Speaker 1: at it and I was saying, moon up sundown. That's
Speaker 1: what our daughter says, moon up sundown. It's nighttime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm trying to bring a little personality here,
Speaker 1: but go ahead, Mike. Sorry where that was going. I
Speaker 1: was just saying, because that we're having we're having technical difficulties,
Speaker 1: you know, I just speaking of moons um And I
Speaker 1: felt really stupid about this. But it was until I
Speaker 1: had kids that I realized that the moon and the
Speaker 1: moon does its own thing. Like when I always thought
Speaker 1: the sun gets up in the daytime, moon's up at night.
Speaker 1: But then my kids were like, why is the moon
Speaker 1: out is three in the afternoon. I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna look into this, and the moon just does its
Speaker 1: own thing. It goes up and now whenever it feels
Speaker 1: like I'm going up, and now I know, And that's
Speaker 1: always what I was kind of telling Jolie too. I
Speaker 1: was like, well, technically, the moon's always up, but it's
Speaker 1: her way of saying it's night time. Yeah, saying it's
Speaker 1: a nighttime, but she doesn't realize that's up during the day.
Speaker 1: So I feel like when she does see it, she's
Speaker 1: gonna be like, wait, what during the day if she
Speaker 1: ever sees like I'm trying to like point it out
Speaker 1: to her so that she can realize, like, technically, there's
Speaker 1: stars in the moon are both out, and we're going
Speaker 1: to have to answer those questions. Yeah, I can't believe
Speaker 1: it took me to age thirty eight to know that
Speaker 1: about the moon. That seems like basic information. Don't say
Speaker 1: your thirty eight Mark, come on? Was when I found out?
Speaker 1: All right, Michael, since since Mark and I don't have
Speaker 1: very interesting conversation, what would you like to talk about it?
Speaker 1: Just it just took me for a surprise. That's A'll
Speaker 1: let you. That's great. I'm excited for our guest today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I am, because I want to talk about you know,
Speaker 1: Busy Filiters came out with an article recently about her
Speaker 1: considering divorcing her husband because she felt like she did everything.
Speaker 1: You and I have had discussions about this on podcast
Speaker 1: and you know live podcast shows that we've done when
Speaker 1: we're toward We've talked about ourselves on divving up home
Speaker 1: responsibilities and feeling like we either do less or more
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Yeah, I feel like it's so
Speaker 1: we've talked it out though, But she's written a book
Speaker 1: about it. She's specialist about this and has a whole
Speaker 1: kind of scientific process behind it. Well, then I'm interested
Speaker 1: to hear the scientific part of it because so many people,
Speaker 1: even after we've talked about it, they're like, Jan's whiney, Like,
Speaker 1: of course moms do the laundry. But it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be that stereotype. Oh says the man that's like,
Speaker 1: well that's what women do. When did I ever say
Speaker 1: that with the kids stuff. I'm just saying, you guys
Speaker 1: just take charge on some things. Yeah, it's because, okay,
Speaker 1: because it would be such a mess if it wasn't.
Speaker 1: But well, again, we've talked about this at least five
Speaker 1: times on the podcast already. But this is great because
Speaker 1: she's the Marie Condo, they say, of marital responsibility. She
Speaker 1: can fix these problems. But there is a chicken and
Speaker 1: egg element of it, like does the wife do everything
Speaker 1: because the husband's lazy? Or does the wife do everything
Speaker 1: because she needs it done a certain way and he's
Speaker 1: only going to screw it up. I think it's both, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I truly do, because I don't think they care enough
Speaker 1: to do it the right way and they don't think
Speaker 1: they ca Yeah, I think I don't think you care,
Speaker 1: or you're lazy and you don't care enough. It's kind
Speaker 1: of both. That's kind of harsh. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of wives would agree with me. It's really aggressive.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, lazy and we don't care. No, I'm saying, like,
Speaker 1: I think that's how your persona comes off with it.
Speaker 1: That's y'all's perception. Maybe okay, But again, so because we
Speaker 1: don't do it the way you want, it's again, no,
Speaker 1: it's not that's the right way. It's just like you
Speaker 1: guys would let the laundry fill up to like the
Speaker 1: top and then still not do the kids laundry or
Speaker 1: put it away the right or put it away at all,
Speaker 1: and just like let it just kind of sit on
Speaker 1: the dresser until it goes back down to the bottom,
Speaker 1: like like the top of the dresser, not actually in
Speaker 1: the dresser. It's like, you know, you actually can put
Speaker 1: the clothes, like you're laying it on the dresser. You don't,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's just I just I think there's
Speaker 1: a combination of both. But again, we don't care about
Speaker 1: the garage. But again I don't know, So that's kind
Speaker 1: of I guess that where it goes stereotype there because
Speaker 1: we don't we could give two craps about the garage.
Speaker 1: You know you care about the garage, Well, I do,
Speaker 1: because it's still a mess and I want to clean
Speaker 1: it up. But I'm like, no, it's your domain. Like
Speaker 1: I want to go and organize the thing that you
Speaker 1: said was going to organize our garage and it still
Speaker 1: looks like a mess, right, And it's one of those
Speaker 1: things that's it's on the list, But it's how many
Speaker 1: other things do we have that's on the on the
Speaker 1: priority list? Where if I was out there doing that,
Speaker 1: you'd be like, why are you doing this right now
Speaker 1: when you should be doing this doing whatever something else.
Speaker 1: I feel like you're you guys would find something else
Speaker 1: that's more important to maybe you to take away from
Speaker 1: what we're doing. I just again, I think it's just
Speaker 1: like priorities, you know, But it's well, I'm very interested
Speaker 1: to now talk to her since she has a hopefully
Speaker 1: a method to the madness. Is she Is she there yet? Mark?
Speaker 1: She is um before we bring her in. How are
Speaker 1: you guys doing? Yeah, we're great. We maybe get a
Speaker 1: little update on how life spent for you too. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I was out on the boat last week,
Speaker 1: so I think you know, if he wants to say anything,
Speaker 1: he can say any thing. But I was like last
Speaker 1: week and then I just got a few So if
Speaker 1: you want to say something, you totally can. When you
Speaker 1: said something the other day that that maybe a point
Speaker 1: when you said something it kind of triggered me into
Speaker 1: getting quiet. Do you remember what it was? Yeah? The
Speaker 1: second that I told you about the articles is when
Speaker 1: you completely shut down. That's right, because yeah, I get
Speaker 1: like that sometimes when I feel like that is being
Speaker 1: used against me, like what people are saying that bothers me,
Speaker 1: that triggers me. But you know, still, I didn't handle
Speaker 1: it the best last week, and I was angry and
Speaker 1: I was bitter, and I just kind of let everything
Speaker 1: get under my skin, which usually I don't when it
Speaker 1: comes to outside uh information or people or tabloids or
Speaker 1: whatever that don't matter in a relationship. Um, but ultimately,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sorry for how I handled the situation.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that Jannah had to feel what she had
Speaker 1: to feel and that it was so triggering, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's one of those things that it just you know,
Speaker 1: I handled it poorly, and it sucks that something that
Speaker 1: seems so simple was so difficult to do. But Jane
Speaker 1: and I are in a much better place now and
Speaker 1: continue to process it and handle it. But yeah, we're
Speaker 1: doing way better. You know why we're also doing way
Speaker 1: better is because we're sleeping really nice. And why's that, honey?
Speaker 1: With our Brooklyn and sheets. Uh, the other day I
Speaker 1: was doing laundry, of course, and I was separating the laundry,
Speaker 1: and I was making sure that I separated because somehow
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn and sheets got on the guest bed sheets.
Speaker 1: And the other day You're like, why are the Brooklyn
Speaker 1: sheets down? I'm like, well, I think they're in the
Speaker 1: guest room. So when our guests left, I made sure
Speaker 1: I did the laundry and then separated them to make
Speaker 1: sure that our sheets were then swapped out with those sheets,
Speaker 1: because I think of those things. Um, Brooklyn and Sheets
Speaker 1: are awesome. They were the winner of the best of
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Speaker 1: and I both are very excited about this. We have
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Speaker 1: so excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1: Can we just just go right into it because it's
Speaker 1: kind of been the Great Age debate, great Old age
Speaker 1: debate for all generations. Um, first off, though, are you married?
Speaker 1: I'm married with three children ag eight and three. Okay? Perfect?
Speaker 1: So that like right there kind of seals your authent
Speaker 1: your your authenticity on it because I'm like, okay, if
Speaker 1: she's not married, yeah, this girl, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: like like because of teen years in marriage, three children,
Speaker 1: hopping on the side of the road over text my
Speaker 1: husband sent me that just said I'm surprised you didn't
Speaker 1: get blueberries. So I've been in it perfect. So start
Speaker 1: from the beginning. You know, why did you write this book? Um?
Speaker 1: What was your like, what was your reasoning behind it?
Speaker 1: Was just too not like other wive seal alone? Or
Speaker 1: is it just kind of the scientific part behind a bit?
Speaker 1: Both both? Um, But it really did start with my
Speaker 1: own personal story of getting a text after my second son,
Speaker 1: Ben was born seven years ago, eight years ago that said,
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries, and you can picture
Speaker 1: the scene. I had a breast pump and a diaper
Speaker 1: bag on my passenger seat. I had gifts for to
Speaker 1: return from a new baby because stores give you like
Speaker 1: one day return policy. Um. In the back seat, I
Speaker 1: have a client contract on my lap with like a
Speaker 1: pen sort of poking me in the vagina as I'm
Speaker 1: trying to right mark up a contract at every red
Speaker 1: traffic lightstop the way to pick up my second son,
Speaker 1: who's two years and eight months at his toddler transition program,
Speaker 1: which in America lasts like again ten minutes because people
Speaker 1: we really value working parents here in America, and so um,
Speaker 1: even though I was gonna be late to pick up
Speaker 1: Zach when the text came in, I'm surprised you didn't
Speaker 1: get blueberries. I just pulled over to the side of
Speaker 1: the road and I started sobbing, and I was thinking, well,
Speaker 1: but I was really thinking was ship. If my marriage
Speaker 1: is going to end, it should be over something way
Speaker 1: more dramatic now, like you know, maybe like an affair
Speaker 1: with an NFL player or something better for me. But um,
Speaker 1: what I was really thinking was how did I become
Speaker 1: the default for every single household and childcare tasks women do?
Speaker 1: Two thirds two thirds of what it takes to run
Speaker 1: a home and family, regardless of whether we work outside
Speaker 1: the home, a statistic that I was living at the
Speaker 1: time but didn't even know about. YEA interesting. I hear
Speaker 1: you and I share all that weight. I feel like
Speaker 1: that's every day for jama Oh I know I and
Speaker 1: truly and I was like, yeah, it's like and he
Speaker 1: he kind of mocks me sometimes he's like, you're carrying
Speaker 1: ten things, got a kid, You're on the phone doing
Speaker 1: a business call, you're you know, cleaning up whatever. And
Speaker 1: then it's like, you know, he's still working on that
Speaker 1: one task, right, That's that. That is where I was,
Speaker 1: and I will say that, um, blueberries guy is the
Speaker 1: most amazing man. Now he's holding all of the cards.
Speaker 1: That's the fair Play metaphor. While I've been on this
Speaker 1: book tour and our relationship is completely transformed. But it
Speaker 1: was this is not a memoir. I wrote fair Play
Speaker 1: Now as a memoir. Once that happened, when I was
Speaker 1: sobbing on the side of the road, I decided to
Speaker 1: go on a quest to find a solution for domestic rebalance.
Speaker 1: And the good news is is I've read every single
Speaker 1: article in book on this topic of what's called second shift,
Speaker 1: emotional labor, mental load, invisible work. And not only that,
Speaker 1: I went out and interviewed five men and women that
Speaker 1: mirrored mirror the U. S Census in terms of socio
Speaker 1: economic status and ethnicity. And the good news for fair
Speaker 1: Play and the bad news for societies. It's happening to
Speaker 1: women everywhere, couples everywhere. Is it unbalanced because we do
Speaker 1: it to ourselves? It's a great question. I think that
Speaker 1: what I found, my biggest finding was that the smallest
Speaker 1: details were causing the biggest problems. And so even though
Speaker 1: fair Play sort of started as my love letter to women,
Speaker 1: ended up as my love letter to men. I had
Speaker 1: men all over the country telling me things like they
Speaker 1: were locked out of their home over a glue stick.
Speaker 1: I had a man in white planes literally telling me
Speaker 1: that he was deciding does he drive into New York
Speaker 1: City and get a hotel room, is his wife going
Speaker 1: to calm down? Does he get let back in his home?
Speaker 1: And from her perspective, I found out later she had
Speaker 1: been working for three weeks on a Homer project besides
Speaker 1: working full time, and all she needed was to glue
Speaker 1: the Albert Einstein photos on the poster board and her
Speaker 1: husband couldn't even bring home a glue stick. But that
Speaker 1: Sam's just disrespectful. Well, I actually look at it from
Speaker 1: the male perspective because what I call in the book,
Speaker 1: I call that a rat F. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I'm a sakers here, but the rat f, the rat
Speaker 1: four letter word F is the random assignment of a task.
Speaker 1: And so all over this country, men were getting screwed
Speaker 1: with rats. Pick up the glue stick, go to the
Speaker 1: store for me, go um, go, take the kid to
Speaker 1: the birthday party, and not having any address. An assistant
Speaker 1: New York Times came out with an article said that
Speaker 1: the only way to get men to do more is
Speaker 1: to train them, and I had a man say, I'm
Speaker 1: not a dog, right. So this has became my love
Speaker 1: letter to men because I realized that this is not
Speaker 1: working for either of us. It's not working for me
Speaker 1: to be sobbing on the side of the road and
Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmed, but it was also not working for men.
Speaker 1: They wanted to know their role in the home, and
Speaker 1: so that's that's where it came from. And it's interesting too,
Speaker 1: because I feel like when it's something like the example
Speaker 1: you used to even about the glue stick. It's maybe
Speaker 1: in our perspective, like I can understand how that would
Speaker 1: be so impactful if that's all they asked for. Maybe
Speaker 1: you know, some women don't ask a lot of their husbands,
Speaker 1: and the one thing they asked them to do they
Speaker 1: can't do. I get the importance of that, but also
Speaker 1: being on the receiving side of it, sometimes I would
Speaker 1: feel unfair because then it puts all this weight into
Speaker 1: this singular, seemingly insignificant task. That's like, oh wait, what,
Speaker 1: how do you now all of a sudden, I don't
Speaker 1: love you, I don't care about you. I disrespect you
Speaker 1: because I didn't get a glue stick. I think that's
Speaker 1: so beautiful the way you just articulated that, because that's
Speaker 1: what I was hearing from men everywhere. So I'll give
Speaker 1: you really the core of the fair play system, right,
Speaker 1: the core of the fair play system. What I found
Speaker 1: is if we treat our home like an organization with
Speaker 1: some respect and rigor the way we treat our workplace,
Speaker 1: everything changes. So I'll give you an example, Mustard, back
Speaker 1: to what you were saying about the glue stick, Mustard,
Speaker 1: somebody needs to know in your household, that your second
Speaker 1: son Johnny, only eats protein when he dips it in
Speaker 1: French as yellow mustard. That's what I call conception. Then
Speaker 1: somebody writes it down on a list when it looks
Speaker 1: going low and the refrigerator along with the other groceries
Speaker 1: for the week. That's planning. Then somebody gets their butt
Speaker 1: to the store, has to get to the butt to
Speaker 1: the store to actually purchase the yellow mustard. That's execution.
Speaker 1: And all over the country, what I found is that's
Speaker 1: when men are stepping in. And that's a serious problem.
Speaker 1: Because you always bring home spicy dijon, you just do,
Speaker 1: and I asked you for yellow mustard. And so men
Speaker 1: all over the country were saying things to me like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go back to the store because
Speaker 1: I can't do anything right. Whereas women were saying to me,
Speaker 1: you're asking me eve to trust them with my living
Speaker 1: will my partner with my living Well, he can't even
Speaker 1: bring home the right type of mustard. So as a mediator,
Speaker 1: I like to say, the presenting problem is never the
Speaker 1: real problem. This is not about mustard or sticks. It's
Speaker 1: about trust and ownership and expectations. So what happens when
Speaker 1: you handle the full mustard situation from conception to planning
Speaker 1: to execution, then you know what mustard to get. And
Speaker 1: so my entire book fair Play is all about the
Speaker 1: fact that fifty fifty is the wrong equation. When we
Speaker 1: can move to an understanding that it's not about fifty
Speaker 1: because that's scorekeeping, but it's about ownership, own the full
Speaker 1: mustard situation, and things start to change really quickly. What
Speaker 1: else have you seen from a um scientifical background part
Speaker 1: of it, Like, is there anything that's to be said
Speaker 1: about you know that men truly can only do one
Speaker 1: thing at once, or they have to have their one
Speaker 1: task kind of like my husband says, he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: he focuses on one thing and one thing only. Okay, great,
Speaker 1: I love that you asked about the science. So the
Speaker 1: biggest finding that I found, the biggest finding, which is
Speaker 1: the core of the whole fair Play system, is an
Speaker 1: expectation and understanding from my research. And then I'll tell
Speaker 1: you about the actual science, you know, the real UM
Speaker 1: time you know, time journal psychology, and sociology. But what
Speaker 1: I found was that men women in society view men's
Speaker 1: time as finite, like diamonds, and women's time is infinite
Speaker 1: like sand. Now I just said men women in society,
Speaker 1: so we can understand. Okay, men all over we're saying
Speaker 1: things to me like I don't have time. I don't
Speaker 1: have time, but my wife has time. So yes, we
Speaker 1: can understand for men. But the biggest problem that I
Speaker 1: found was that women also don't value their time. So
Speaker 1: women all over the country were saying things to me like, oh,
Speaker 1: of course I should go get the mustard, pick up
Speaker 1: the extra slack, pick up my kids from school because
Speaker 1: my husband makes more money than me. Not true. Other
Speaker 1: women were saying to me, I do this because I'm
Speaker 1: a better multitasker. I'm wired differently, and my husband can
Speaker 1: or my partner can only handle one thing at a time.
Speaker 1: I went to the top neuroscientists in this country. There
Speaker 1: is no science that has ever proven that women are
Speaker 1: better multitaskers or are wired differently. Actually, one said to
Speaker 1: me off the record, which I'm gonna use here, but
Speaker 1: I can't quote him. He said to me, imagine, you
Speaker 1: can convince half the population that they're wired better to
Speaker 1: wipe asses and do dishes. You can convince them that
Speaker 1: they're better at wiping asses and doing dishes. Well, guess what,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll end up with a Forbes list that just
Speaker 1: came out last month that has a hundred CEOs on
Speaker 1: it and n of them are men. So no science
Speaker 1: to prove that we're wired differently than men. Can only
Speaker 1: focus on one task at the time. Um, and then
Speaker 1: other women were saying to me, in the time it
Speaker 1: takes me to tell him what to do, I might
Speaker 1: as well do it myself. I think. I went to
Speaker 1: which which I which I understand. But where I know
Speaker 1: Jane and I come into run into like obstacles with
Speaker 1: that is, well, don't hold it against me or you know,
Speaker 1: as as speaking from almen, don't hold it against us.
Speaker 1: If it's something that you just said, you just rather
Speaker 1: do absolutely. And I went to the top behavioral economists
Speaker 1: in this country. His name is Dan Arielli. He's a
Speaker 1: best selling author. And I said to him, does that
Speaker 1: make sense? He said, if you look in the long term,
Speaker 1: the long term makes no sense to say that, because
Speaker 1: that's short term thinking. Long term you actually do tell
Speaker 1: the other person with some context how to do something
Speaker 1: or how you want to invite them to the table,
Speaker 1: because when it saves you hours and hours in the future,
Speaker 1: but women weren't thinking that way. My favorite was when
Speaker 1: women said to me, um, yeah, we're both colorectal surgeons,
Speaker 1: we're both shipping supervisors. But my husband's busy and I
Speaker 1: can find the time. We'll see, and that's the time thing.
Speaker 1: Is what I kind of wanted to bring up because
Speaker 1: I feel like that's where we have some of our
Speaker 1: biggest struggle. Even just when we were first talking on
Speaker 1: the podcast today, it was like, He's like, well, when
Speaker 1: when do we have time? And in my head, I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's there's so much time to do a lot of things.
Speaker 1: It's about prioritizing that and it's not like and so
Speaker 1: I think that's like where my frustration comes in as
Speaker 1: a wife in this relationship is just like you, you
Speaker 1: don't you can make the time for anything, correct, and
Speaker 1: women do. But what women were saying where that they
Speaker 1: can find time and men couldn't. So the problem is
Speaker 1: we have to value our own time. We have to
Speaker 1: believe society has to believe that women get as much
Speaker 1: choice over how they use their time as men do. Men.
Speaker 1: According to Professor Darby Saxby, Um, a psychologist out of
Speaker 1: USC that helped me with um consulting for the book
Speaker 1: shows that in her leisure time studies, men take twice
Speaker 1: as much leisure time than women. Well that's also it
Speaker 1: was Anna say too. It's not I don't know if
Speaker 1: a like I get the leisure, but I also like
Speaker 1: when my husband and this is no fault because he
Speaker 1: wants to do the most research, but it's like it
Speaker 1: takes so much longer to get to the result that
Speaker 1: I'm like, I could have told you that thirty minutes ago,
Speaker 1: but you're like skimming. I'm like, just so it's like
Speaker 1: it takes a longer, like they really want to like look,
Speaker 1: and it's funny because like he'll make fun of his
Speaker 1: you know, dad for instructions, like, but you're doing the
Speaker 1: exact same thing that your father is doing, and I'm
Speaker 1: articulous and I think, but that that again, it's like,
Speaker 1: then we're faulted just because we don't fault the way
Speaker 1: that maybe you do it. We're not faulting you, but
Speaker 1: we also know that there's still so much more to
Speaker 1: do and you're taking your time longer on something when
Speaker 1: it's like it's right in front of you. But the
Speaker 1: truth is because back to the wiping acids and doing dishes. Um,
Speaker 1: we we're not better at it, we're not better multitaskers,
Speaker 1: but we have had more experience doing it for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: Right the hundred years of whatever you want to call
Speaker 1: the stuff that's you know, jark, whatever we're gonna call it.
Speaker 1: I like to focus on solutions and say I'm happy
Speaker 1: you're being thorough and taking your time to do that
Speaker 1: as long as we're negotiating understanding what we have ownership over.
Speaker 1: But the problem with women and not seeing the problem.
Speaker 1: But I'm definitely not shaming women. I love women. This
Speaker 1: fair play is my love letter to women. But what
Speaker 1: I found again in my research was that women love
Speaker 1: to give feedback in the moment, which is very unhelpful
Speaker 1: in terms of, um for a long term thinking in
Speaker 1: the house, So don't do it that way, or why
Speaker 1: are you taking so long to do this or figure
Speaker 1: it out right? Women also were saying things to me
Speaker 1: like I can't sit down to have a twenty minute
Speaker 1: conversation about the home. I don't have the time. So
Speaker 1: they were almost saying that I don't want to explain
Speaker 1: this right in the time it takes me to tell
Speaker 1: him he should be able to figure it out. But
Speaker 1: the problem with that is that also doesn't work too
Speaker 1: And so what ends up happening is we don't communicate,
Speaker 1: or we end up sobbing over blueberries, or we lock
Speaker 1: our husbands out over glue sticks, and or women say
Speaker 1: to me, I don't want to talk about these things.
Speaker 1: One woman said that to me, I don't want to
Speaker 1: talk about these things. But the funny thing is, twenty
Speaker 1: minutes later in our interview, she says to me, Oh,
Speaker 1: when my husband forgets to put the boundary in the dryer,
Speaker 1: I dump it on his pillow. Another woman literally said
Speaker 1: to me, I don't have conversations about domestic life. But
Speaker 1: then I found out she has an Instagram account called
Speaker 1: the ship my Husband Doesn't pick Up. Um, I don't
Speaker 1: think people would believe me. But a good news is
Speaker 1: BuzzFeed just came out with the Japanese version. I guess
Speaker 1: a woman in Japan started the ship my Husband Doesn't
Speaker 1: pick Up and she has now five thousand followers. So
Speaker 1: are we should we publicly shame our our partners? Should
Speaker 1: we be dumping stuff on their pillows locking them out
Speaker 1: of the house and Mike Mike made a great point
Speaker 1: to the other day. Is like, there's certain things too
Speaker 1: that I overlook because I don't think they're important. Correct.
Speaker 1: So it's so I don't think, Yeah, but it's about values, right,
Speaker 1: it's about values. But when we're communicate eating in the moment,
Speaker 1: when we're when emotion is high, cognition is low. That's
Speaker 1: what I say as a mediator, where a lot of
Speaker 1: times we're communicating when emotion is high. So I'm asking
Speaker 1: people to change their habits, to sit down once a
Speaker 1: week and actually talk about things when you're calm. And
Speaker 1: that's really what fair play is all about. It gives
Speaker 1: you the tools to have these conversations over the home.
Speaker 1: But then I make it fun because I give you
Speaker 1: a card game. So I have my book here for you.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that you
Speaker 1: would do to to be able for us to communicate. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I'll give you an example. Um. When I first
Speaker 1: started the fair Play system, I's it's based on a
Speaker 1: hundred card card game that represents every single thing you
Speaker 1: have to do in your home. And it started with
Speaker 1: a foray into every other book, an article I told
Speaker 1: you about that I read on the subject, and the
Speaker 1: most helpful The most unhelpful were things like divorce is
Speaker 1: the only solution to this problem or strike, but the
Speaker 1: more helpful things that make a list. So I made
Speaker 1: the best lit of anybody in the whole world, because
Speaker 1: I'm an organizational management specialists. That ended up with nine
Speaker 1: tabs and twenty subtabs of invisible work over a thousand
Speaker 1: items of invisible work, such things like medical and healthy living,
Speaker 1: where I had friends say you forgot sunscreen and I'd say, nope,
Speaker 1: that's under tab number seventy two. You obviously don't know
Speaker 1: how to use Excel. Scroll to the right. It had
Speaker 1: things like, oh, you forgot allowance, and I say, nope,
Speaker 1: it's under It's there under tab fifty five, under family
Speaker 1: values and Traditions. The craziest spreadsheet you've ever seen. I
Speaker 1: name it the Shit I Do Spreadsheet. It goes viral
Speaker 1: amongst groups of women. Realizing at the time that's list
Speaker 1: alone don't work. So from that I derived a card
Speaker 1: game out of that list. Over three year period, I
Speaker 1: tested a card game that's working, and I'll give you
Speaker 1: an example. One of the cards is garbage. And like
Speaker 1: I said before, it's about ownership. So I said to
Speaker 1: my husband You're gonna be the conceiver, planner, and executor
Speaker 1: of garbage, which means liners go back in, they go
Speaker 1: out before trash day, the full conception planning. So I'd
Speaker 1: never have to remind you ever again about garbage. Well,
Speaker 1: the problem was I couldn't let go. So I was
Speaker 1: talking him and sort of walking around the house seeing
Speaker 1: if he was going to take out the garbage. I
Speaker 1: would put garbage liners on top of the think. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I would even open up the drawer, you know the
Speaker 1: door underneath thinks, so he would fall over the door,
Speaker 1: opened door and not see it because I wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure he remember the garbage liners were under there.
Speaker 1: And so we took a step back, and I said,
Speaker 1: you know what, this is not just about handing out responsibilities.
Speaker 1: Let me go back to my ten years of mediation
Speaker 1: experience and ask about values. So this book fair Play
Speaker 1: is about having a values conversation over garbage. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is, I said to Seth, I
Speaker 1: grew up in a single mom household. We didn't have
Speaker 1: a garbage can. We had one of those plastic bags
Speaker 1: that sat on a knob and garbage would spill out
Speaker 1: onto the floor. Are and I was a dehydrated child
Speaker 1: because I was afraid to go into the kitchen at
Speaker 1: night because in the lower reastide of New York City
Speaker 1: we have a big water bug and cockroach problem. And
Speaker 1: when you have garbage out, you turn on that light,
Speaker 1: you're gonna see hundreds of cockroaches and water bugs. So
Speaker 1: I'm triggered by garbage. And my husband said to me, well,
Speaker 1: I lived in fraternity and my pizza, a Domino's pizza box,
Speaker 1: was my pillow. You know I lived. I slept on
Speaker 1: a Domino's pizza box. I don't really care about garbage
Speaker 1: the way you do. So what happens right when you're
Speaker 1: at such different points. Well, then I asked you to
Speaker 1: bring in what works for the legal system, the medical system,
Speaker 1: a trillion dollar towards system in our country. What's reasonable?
Speaker 1: What is your minimum standard of care? And so we
Speaker 1: had a whole conversation where he said, I get that
Speaker 1: you care about garbage. I want to hold the garbage card,
Speaker 1: but what's reasonable as it goes out once a day
Speaker 1: and you don't stalk me over it, and it'll go
Speaker 1: out at seven pm, I'll put it in my calendar
Speaker 1: like a work appointment, as long as you never mentioned
Speaker 1: the word garbage ever again. And since then, garbage has
Speaker 1: been going out in my household at seven pm every
Speaker 1: single night. But it took a values conversation over garbage.
Speaker 1: We don't communicate like that, But what if we did?
Speaker 1: What if I had you sit down and play the game,
Speaker 1: and have you have got values conversations over garbage? I
Speaker 1: promise you all learn more about your household and how
Speaker 1: you discuss garbage, and I will for any other esoteric
Speaker 1: relationship question I can ask you. And so when you
Speaker 1: do that card game, is that something where okay, the
Speaker 1: garbage card, this one represents garbage? Do does he hold
Speaker 1: that forever? Is this something that you do? Or every
Speaker 1: month we just do the card game again? We might
Speaker 1: have different tasks or how does that work? Every week?
Speaker 1: Every week? Every week? Just like your workplace, you treat
Speaker 1: your home like your most important organization. We have feedback
Speaker 1: everywhere else. We have clear expectations everywhere else, even my
Speaker 1: aunt Marian's Magen group. You don't bring snack twice, you're
Speaker 1: kicked out. We have no expectations of each other. In
Speaker 1: the home. You play every week, you sit down for
Speaker 1: your check in every week and as my favorite behavioral
Speaker 1: economists back Dan ari Ellie. He says, you do it
Speaker 1: with short term reward substitution. Do it over, Margarita's do
Speaker 1: it over watching your favorite Netflix show where you say
Speaker 1: we're not going to start watching together until we do
Speaker 1: our check it. Eventually, after about a month, it becomes
Speaker 1: a Habit takes about a month to develop a habit.
Speaker 1: And then you get into these conversations where you say
Speaker 1: things like, oh, I want to redeal the school forms
Speaker 1: card this week because I'm out of town and you
Speaker 1: can and you or you say things like I said
Speaker 1: to my husband, a rat coming your way, can you
Speaker 1: please pick up cash for me? But at least he
Speaker 1: can laugh about it now, because before all I did
Speaker 1: was give him the random assignment of a task for
Speaker 1: every single thing. But when you bring ownership in, when
Speaker 1: you have values conversations over things like garbage or dishes
Speaker 1: or transporting your kids to school, see things change. And
Speaker 1: that's what I got to see in my beta testers
Speaker 1: all over the country. Right now, let me ask you this,
Speaker 1: let me take it a step deeper. If okay, so
Speaker 1: you do that right? We we distribute the cards every week,
Speaker 1: but I I so I get a task that maybe
Speaker 1: Janna has typically usually done in the past, but I
Speaker 1: choose to do it differently because it's how I would
Speaker 1: like to execute it. Well, now, what if that that
Speaker 1: comes becomes an issue where Jana is like, why would
Speaker 1: you put the kids clothes like this? Why would you
Speaker 1: do it like that? Can I just intercept really fast? So, um,
Speaker 1: we have, um a nanny that helps with their kids
Speaker 1: and the way that she folds because I primarily do
Speaker 1: the kids laundry nine nine percent the time, but sometimes
Speaker 1: she'll do it. And the way that she folds my
Speaker 1: son's t shirts drives me crazy because that's not the
Speaker 1: way that I fold him. So I just had a conversation.
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, do you mind you know, not
Speaker 1: folding the shirts like that? Um, I know you were
Speaker 1: trying to reorganize it, but it just doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1: Well I go back in and she said, oh my gosh, absolutely.
Speaker 1: But then I go back and I love you, Kylie,
Speaker 1: You're amazing, but like they're like that again. So I
Speaker 1: feel like I have to have another conversation. And in
Speaker 1: my mind, I'm like, well, I just would rather do it,
Speaker 1: but I think it's I don't know what you were
Speaker 1: going to say to his question. But I feel like
Speaker 1: if I said what I said to our nanny at first,
Speaker 1: being like, hey, just so you know, like I love
Speaker 1: it when like, for example, I hate the way that
Speaker 1: he folds towels that you're never going to give him
Speaker 1: the laundry card. But guess the good news is there's
Speaker 1: other cards in the in the system where you can
Speaker 1: give it to him. If something is a real trigger
Speaker 1: for you, again, you can tell me I'm not like
Speaker 1: emotionally triggered. It's just more of like an annoyance, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Because I'm like, I can't see
Speaker 1: the T shirts like how and the way that he
Speaker 1: folds the towels doesn't go in our baskets, Like but
Speaker 1: back to your why, right, Even if you're communicating to
Speaker 1: your nanny about that, it's when you can give the
Speaker 1: y behind it, it's much better, Like, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard when we have a lot of T shirts here,
Speaker 1: and so when we fold this way, there's actually more
Speaker 1: maximum capacity in this drawer, and so it allows our
Speaker 1: kids to be able to see what they want to wear,
Speaker 1: and trying to teach them to choose their own clothes.
Speaker 1: You go back to your why when you communicate, because
Speaker 1: if you just say I like things this way, because
Speaker 1: that's why it doesn't work for other human beings, which
Speaker 1: is which is what I think a lot of. For you,
Speaker 1: it is what it's your why might be because that's
Speaker 1: how you like things. It doesn't want to the towels
Speaker 1: know because the way that it's folded, it doesn't fit
Speaker 1: into the um which MCA, what's that called the linen closet.
Speaker 1: So that's why I don't like them, because they like hangover. Right.
Speaker 1: But that but again, but that's a valid thing right
Speaker 1: to say, I'd like my my closet to close, and
Speaker 1: this is why I do things this way. Right, But
Speaker 1: we don't have those types of conversations. But the good
Speaker 1: news is, for example, I love what I call the
Speaker 1: card the V I P gifts very important people gifts
Speaker 1: like gifts I gifts to friends and into colleagues. And
Speaker 1: so I'll probably always hold that card because I have
Speaker 1: a certain way I love to give gifts. And but again,
Speaker 1: it's about looking at your deck together. You build it together,
Speaker 1: you what matters to you together. But all I'll say
Speaker 1: to you is the more time you spend stressing over
Speaker 1: how something is folded. The less time you have to
Speaker 1: spend on your self care, your adult friendships, your time
Speaker 1: to devote to your career, your time to devote to
Speaker 1: your children, to meaningful connections with other people. And so
Speaker 1: I do think that it's great to step back and
Speaker 1: say what do we really value? But I know you
Speaker 1: were talking about the the um, the trash, But so
Speaker 1: if he wasn't doing the cards, then what's the conversation there,
Speaker 1: because then that would be frustrating. Well, there's a trust issue, right,
Speaker 1: This is about the presenting problem, is not the real problem.
Speaker 1: So it's not really about the garbage. Was For me,
Speaker 1: it was about my trust and my husband is he
Speaker 1: going to do it? And I don't do it? You
Speaker 1: know exactly. So women ask me that all of the time.
Speaker 1: And this is back to my love letter to men.
Speaker 1: I don't find that they don't do it. I find
Speaker 1: that they don't bring home glue sticks because they have
Speaker 1: no context for those requests. But when you give men
Speaker 1: full ownership, which is how we do things in our
Speaker 1: organizations Netflix, for example, they have something called the rare
Speaker 1: responsible person. You don't wait to be told what to do,
Speaker 1: but you're also given contexts not control. When you Apple
Speaker 1: coined a term called directly responsible individual, where someone is
Speaker 1: responsible in their workplace for the conception, to planning to
Speaker 1: the execution. That's how our workplaces are most successful workplaces
Speaker 1: are operating. So when you bring that context in and
Speaker 1: the ownership, and when men understand that there is conception
Speaker 1: and planning behind getting the mustard, things start to change,
Speaker 1: just like they do in the workplace. And what I
Speaker 1: find is that men don't forget when they have ownership.
Speaker 1: They actually take pride in their cards. Back to my
Speaker 1: love letter to men, my husband doesn't forget. He doesn't
Speaker 1: forget now. But it takes time, It takes the check ins.
Speaker 1: And the most important piece of feedback for women is
Speaker 1: no feedback in the moment. So if your spouse didn't
Speaker 1: fold the towels right, and you did give him the
Speaker 1: laundry card, if you're gonna say, Jesus, you didn't fold
Speaker 1: the towels right, I knew it. Nothing will change in
Speaker 1: your habits in your home. If you wait for that
Speaker 1: check in like you were asking me before your your
Speaker 1: your weekly check in, and you sit down and you say,
Speaker 1: this is what was great this week, and this is
Speaker 1: what sort of was, you know, a little tricky for me.
Speaker 1: Men are much more willing to hear it because when
Speaker 1: emotion is low, cognition is high, and we can have
Speaker 1: really constructive conversations over Margarita's as opposed to in the moment.
Speaker 1: But I would say that was probably the hardest thing
Speaker 1: for my beta testers, for women to say, I can
Speaker 1: hold my feedback, but it is not constructive. It actually
Speaker 1: was twenty pages of my book. My editor kept making
Speaker 1: me cut it down because she said, you can't spend
Speaker 1: twenty pages trying to convince women not to give feedback
Speaker 1: in the moment. I'll give you five pages to make
Speaker 1: your case. So I do it through psychology, through behavioral economix,
Speaker 1: and through my lens, which is legal and mediation. And
Speaker 1: that's I think that's a fantastic point for people to
Speaker 1: take with them because I've said this to Jana numerous times,
Speaker 1: where anytime she would make a comment after I did
Speaker 1: something like I didn't grab this so I forgot that.
Speaker 1: It makes me feel like she's focused on what I'm
Speaker 1: not doing as opposed to what I am doing. Like
Speaker 1: I've said that until us I've been blew in the
Speaker 1: face to her. But but I just think it's a
Speaker 1: great point, not just for women, but I think for
Speaker 1: men to just a testament to kind of your science
Speaker 1: behind it. Eve, is like that. I know for me,
Speaker 1: that's how I would receive it better because I won't
Speaker 1: go into my like I'm not doing a good job,
Speaker 1: I'm not good enough and I can't even do this right,
Speaker 1: and it's like what else? Now, it's really hard. It's
Speaker 1: a really hard communication tool to learn. Um, But when
Speaker 1: you can get it down, so I'm I'm telling people
Speaker 1: not to eat sugar, I'm giving them the South Beach giant. Um.
Speaker 1: It's a little different, right, It's it's not the way
Speaker 1: we normally do things. But again it's also because I
Speaker 1: don't think we treat our home with any respect. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm going on Amazon right now and I'm going to
Speaker 1: order a fair Play. It's a game changing solution than
Speaker 1: you have too much to do and more life to live. Eve,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show and
Speaker 1: chatting with us about your amazing book. I'm excited to
Speaker 1: read it because I think it can be even more
Speaker 1: helpful in our communication. Even though I feel like we
Speaker 1: do a great job, um, I think we could definitely
Speaker 1: use the deck a little bit better for sure. Read
Speaker 1: it together, Read it together. It's actually been really fun.
Speaker 1: And the last thing I'll just say to you is
Speaker 1: that I have over three emails just since the book
Speaker 1: has been released ten days ago at Infohity rod Sky.
Speaker 1: And the crazy thing about it is that it's seventy men,
Speaker 1: seventy percent of men. And so again, this fair Play
Speaker 1: started as my love letter to women, including dedicated to
Speaker 1: my single mother who had to hold all the cards,
Speaker 1: but it ended up as a love letter of men
Speaker 1: because they're they're responding, and they want to know their role,
Speaker 1: and they want to make their deep connections with their
Speaker 1: children and have a place in the home, and so
Speaker 1: I want to invite them into their full power in
Speaker 1: the home so that women can step into a full
Speaker 1: power in the world. That's what this is about. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And even where else can our listeners find you, they
Speaker 1: can find me at Instagram at at fair Play Life amazing.
Speaker 1: Thank you, eat so much, thank you, so much, thank you.
Speaker 1: Halloween is on the way, which means it's time to
Speaker 1: break out the rubber spiders, fake cobwebs, and jackal interns.
Speaker 1: But if you've got a family, you might be dealing
Speaker 1: with something a little scarier right now, shopping for life insurance. Honestly,
Speaker 1: even talking about life insurance scares me. It's just like Halloween.
Speaker 1: Mike's NFL insurance just right out. So it's been kind
Speaker 1: of a scary topic in the household talking about all
Speaker 1: the insurance life insurance, health insurance UM and we've been
Speaker 1: trying to compare quotes, which is exciting. It's exciting but
Speaker 1: scary because we still feel young, and it's like, do
Speaker 1: we really need to talk about this, but we do.
Speaker 1: We do, and that's why we're so happy that we
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Speaker 1: on your phone right now. Policy Genius the easy way
Speaker 1: to compare and buy life insurance. Hey Mark, we got
Speaker 1: an emails. Yeah, let me just summarize this. When her
Speaker 1: name is v she's a male lady and she listens
Speaker 1: to wind down as she walks around delivering the mail,
Speaker 1: which is very I love that thought that she's walking
Speaker 1: around with her um. She has gotten separated from husband,
Speaker 1: and the reason wasn't cheating, although he has cheated before.
Speaker 1: It's because she found out he was still smoking. She
Speaker 1: lost her father to lung cancer, and so when she
Speaker 1: started having kids, they both agreed we are going to
Speaker 1: stop smoking. She said, I'm never going to do that
Speaker 1: because I feel like my father left me early because
Speaker 1: he couldn't stop smoking. She calls him selfish, and so
Speaker 1: the fact that my husband was still doing that it
Speaker 1: kills me. But am I wrong for feeling this way?
Speaker 1: I've given him so many chances, But when is it
Speaker 1: time to say no more chances. I've been happier since
Speaker 1: I've been single, but we do still live together because
Speaker 1: I can't afford to live on my own. M hm.
Speaker 1: So what's your question? Is she out of line for
Speaker 1: for leaving or separating because he won't stop smoking and
Speaker 1: was hiding the smoking from her. I think there's a
Speaker 1: little bit of that, Um, the discovery that we've talked
Speaker 1: about over the past few weeks when she discovered and
Speaker 1: in the past she discovered him cheating. This time she
Speaker 1: discovered he was hiding smoking. I think it's kind of
Speaker 1: all tied together. The thing is, you know, nobody can
Speaker 1: uh discredit or or devalue what how something affects somebody else, right,
Speaker 1: So for this woman, for smoking, she clearly has a
Speaker 1: definitely legitimate reason to be attached to it in the
Speaker 1: way that she is. So for her, that's way more
Speaker 1: impactful than it would it be for maybe the next person.
Speaker 1: So we can't say if it's you know, crossing the
Speaker 1: line or not, but if it's something that someone is
Speaker 1: that passionate about, I don't see anything wrong with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you ever said that TV show with a
Speaker 1: uh was it? Um, Jennifer Anderston, He's just not that
Speaker 1: into you and she breaks up. She ends up breaking
Speaker 1: up with her husband because he didn't want it. He
Speaker 1: didn't believe in married marriage. Well he was hiding cigarettes
Speaker 1: Andrettes No, it's the same movie, right, But he's just
Speaker 1: nothing into you. So I I can't think of her name,
Speaker 1: Jennifer Connelly, Jennifer conn so, but there was that movie
Speaker 1: where you know she's hiding cigarettes. So it's I mean,
Speaker 1: I would I totally get it. I mean, if you're
Speaker 1: that triggered by something, I mean, that's I remember I
Speaker 1: was dating someone guy just don't like drugs, and I
Speaker 1: want to be with someone that does drugs, and I
Speaker 1: found someone doing drugs. I called it off, you know,
Speaker 1: because I don't want that. Everybody's got a different deal breaks.
Speaker 1: As long as you're clear about it, then I think
Speaker 1: you're totally justified. And I'm sorry that they didn't respect
Speaker 1: that and that you are in that situation. That sucks.
Speaker 1: Brianna wants another baby. They've been together with she's with
Speaker 1: her fiance for six years. He's eleven years old. Or
Speaker 1: They have a four year old daughter, and he has
Speaker 1: a couple of sons from previous relationship. She wants more kids.
Speaker 1: He doesn't, and that's she thinks that's unfair that he's
Speaker 1: denying her The many kids that she wants to have.
Speaker 1: It's put a huge damper on their sex life. She
Speaker 1: doesn't want to have sex with him anymore. She feels
Speaker 1: like her body is different and she could literally go
Speaker 1: the rest of her life without it. But since I
Speaker 1: want to have sex with him and he or he
Speaker 1: sees that, I'm just not enjoying it. He accused me
Speaker 1: of cheating, which I would never do. I love him,
Speaker 1: but not having another baby's a really big deal to me,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how to get over that. I
Speaker 1: think it's one of those things if if it's that
Speaker 1: much of a deal breaker, you have to you don't
Speaker 1: want to resent him for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: So if you feel like you're going to resent him
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life and withhold certain things
Speaker 1: because that's what you want, then that's not healthy for
Speaker 1: either one of you. And if you my opinion, I'm like,
Speaker 1: if I really want another baby and that's something that
Speaker 1: I just couldn't get over, well, then that would be
Speaker 1: something that I would have to decide whether or not
Speaker 1: I would want to lose the marriage or not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And also on the other side of it, you can't
Speaker 1: I don't know if we could fully blame him because
Speaker 1: we don't know what kind of conversations they had around
Speaker 1: kids or family going into their marriage, into their relationship.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe he told her it's like and she
Speaker 1: expected him to change, but he didn't. So I mean,
Speaker 1: it's kind of the same thing my brother was semi
Speaker 1: going through. Don't want to get into all of his stuff,
Speaker 1: but it's same thing where it's like, you know, he
Speaker 1: has a vasectomy and his girlfriend, who we all love,
Speaker 1: wants a baby, and I get why she would break
Speaker 1: up with him because she wants a kid. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: and you know, my brother was so distraught, so depressed,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, but Steve, you don't want another kid.
Speaker 1: I can't blame her for leaving you. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I love you, but like, I can't, I can't blame her.
Speaker 1: Who can blame her? She wants to have children. You
Speaker 1: already have two grown ones and you don't want anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm getting into it clearly, Sorry, Steve, but I just
Speaker 1: think to like to the point it's like, so I
Speaker 1: told my brother, I go, if you're willing to lose her,
Speaker 1: how much do you love her? Like would you you know,
Speaker 1: do you love her enough? To give her a child
Speaker 1: that you necessarily He's like, I know I love the
Speaker 1: kid once I had it. I just don't know if
Speaker 1: I want another kid. But it's like, but what are
Speaker 1: you willing to lose? They had to do some compromising.
Speaker 1: I understand that, but like still, it's to that point
Speaker 1: where it's like, what are you willing if you're If
Speaker 1: they're willing to lose the other person, that says a
Speaker 1: lot about their feeling because I wouldn't, yeah, because I'm like,
Speaker 1: if I really love someone, I might do something because
Speaker 1: I love them so much. So it's interesting topic. Um,
Speaker 1: all right, we have to go to a fall festival,
Speaker 1: so I love you guys. Thanks Gussie. Next week