WEBVTT - Does Race Really Exist Or Did We Create It, With Wyclef Jean and Alvin Tillery 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.960 I'm Barton day Thurston and this is Spit and I 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.280 Heart Radio podcast with twenty three and me. This is 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.280 the podcast that explores how DNA is changing our lives 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.280 and the world around us. Today. We talk about race, 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.400 the stories that define it, and how the science matches up, 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.560 if at all. And my life's work is to have 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.400 a world where it looks like Star Trek. You know, 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.840 Star Trek. Everyone has got these different sort of skin 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.640 colors and you're from these different planets and everybody notices it, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.839 but it doesn't define who you are morally. We have 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:39.320 so much more in common than you could even imagine. 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.520 The basic thing you put two kids together, They're gonna 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:44.479 want to wake up, They're gonna want to play, They're 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.040 gonna want to have a good time. As they get older, 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.960 they're gonna want to fall in love, have opinions. This 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.600 is every kid and they all have a heart. We 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.560 are here for another session of Spit in the room. 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.800 He has so many possible titles and accolades, but he 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.320 prefers that you know that he was the kid who 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:08.679 took the donkey to school. Facts why cleft gen. Thank you, 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.479 Thank you so much man for pronouncing my name right 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.119 through the years, they've I've been like waiting to get awards, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:16.920 and they'd be like, the next award goes to why 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.120 cleft gene like man, you know, so thank you. My 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.800 French teacher would be ashamed if I did not get 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.720 Jean correct. And he is the director of the Center 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.119 for the Study of Diversity and Democracy at Northwestern University, 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.080 doctor Al Tillery. How you doing, brothers, Good to see you. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.520 Good to see you two. At point of full disclosure, 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.520 Al was like a resident assistant in my dorm in college. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:42.720 So this is a little bit of a about five 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:44.920 years ago. Yeah, I say four or five years ago, 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.600 something like that, give or take a couple of decades. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.600 So so we're here to continue our conversation about genetics, 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:56.520 about our history, about who we are and what science 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.400 can tell us about that, and why cleft. I'd like 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.280 to start with you. It is the story that you 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.000 know in terms of who you are, into your ancestry, 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.640 your your racial makeup, your genetic makeup, what were you 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.520 born into? What was the story you've got man? So 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:13.880 I would say for me, it started off in Haiti. 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.200 I was born in Haiti and a small place called 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.760 kadet Bukea and uh inside of kwaidet bout is even 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.400 a smaller village inside of that called Lisa. And in 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:27.320 this village, the chances of you getting out is like 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:32.600 really rare. My father, of course, similar to other parents, 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.560 got a chance to come to America before me. My 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.040 daddy left me when I was one. He came to 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:42.280 the United States and the idea of a possible dream 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.959 on making things better to get his kids over to America. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.760 And my dad he had a gift. He was a minister. 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:51.799 He was a man of the cloth. He was a 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:56.200 Nazarian minister. But now peep the catch. My grandfather was 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.800 a voodoo priest, right, so the story definitely gets interesting. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:05.040 So my father basically defied the teachings of my grandfather 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.720 was like, yo, I'm going to be a minister. And 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.240 then years later, of course, he brings me to the States. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.360 My dad brings us to the States. But but growing 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:20.040 up the Haitian Revolution eighteen o four, the first black 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.600 general towsnt loverture and this is coming out of Haiti. 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.000 So the fascinating thing to me, you gotta understand. By 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:29.960 the time I got to the United States and I 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:36.240 was reading history in school. Something bothered me because when 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.200 it was going back to black history, I was like, man, 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.720 I did you know we're talking about Mark Luther King. 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:47.320 We're talking about um Harriet Tubman, right, and who who 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.440 I idolized. But I'm like, Yo, how come nobody talking 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.520 about two sons Lovertu're like, we have to explain to 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.720 these people in this class that you had Haitians that 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.720 basically were free while you had Black Americans that was 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.720 slave in America, and the idea of keeping them separated 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.800 and making sure that these people, um never got together. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.040 So my dad always told me, don't forget you are 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:16.320 a descendant of eighteen o four two cent lovature. So 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.039 this was like how I was brought up with a 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:24.880 very fearless attitude, almost like at times I think it 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.760 was stupid. You know what I'm saying. You'd be like, yo, duld, 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:29.599 be like, yo, get off the block. I am not 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:31.920 getting off the block. I am. I descended them to, 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:35.320 you can shoot if you want me. I will not 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:41.680 get shot. You know, I am exactly Haitian black man. 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.640 So yeah, that that's what they instilled in me in 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.760 the very beginning, that you are part of a revolution. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:54.240 So for me, um, I've never understood like the idea 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.039 of not making it, Like in my brain ten years old, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.120 I get to America, I can't speak no English. By 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.200 the time I'm barely fourteen years old, I'm in the 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:11.200 studio with Curtis Blow like that typical immigrant story. And 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.680 then it was always bigger than music because I was like, look, 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.560 you know before you rode the the audio and he 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.080 was like, yo, how you want to be introduced? And 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.160 I was like, yo, just why Cleft Young? Because I 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.960 think to anyone who's listening to it, okay, we can say, oh, 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.880 why Cleft Young? He wrote My Loves Your Love for 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.680 Whitney Houston. Why Cleft Young? He's the guy who wrote 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.880 Shakira Shakira, Hips Don't Lie, breaking Michael Jackson and Elvis 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.560 record with the biggest song in airplay. But to a 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.159 kid like my daughter is thirteen, she's like, so what, 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.599 Like you know what am I going to get out 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:46.120 of this? So I think the idea of saying, well, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.240 we started from nothing, like coming from a place where 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.440 it looks like impossible to make it and then actually 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.960 making it is more of a bigger story. So for me, 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.080 like just the idea of growing up and understanding a 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.680 Haitian revolution. It taught me a lot, Thank you, man Al. 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.400 This is a nice segue to some of your work 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.880 and in politics and race and how do you come 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.840 to a conversation about genetics and history, especially given the 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.479 context that Wide Cleft has given us, where he's already 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.599 laid out some Transatlantic slavery and the different forks in 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.040 the road that that has led to some of our folks. 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.960 What's so amazing about White Left story is he's telling 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.920 an individual story, right, about his family, about how he 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.560 was able to climb out of a certain socio economic 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.279 situation to where he is today. And of course there's 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.760 some God given talent mixed up in there, and I 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.479 love the part about him being a preacher's kid, right, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.400 But but what I hear in that story is a 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.320 story that is shaped by structures, by you know, the 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.880 structure of the world, and there's a racial structure to 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.040 that world. His narrative about the Haitian Revolution, that's a 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:59.000 sort of group based narrative that we tell ourselves and 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.520 our family and we all have them, right. His is 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.880 one that valorizes black freedom and black rebellion. And I 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.800 bet that that's something that helped him propel forward. Right. 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.800 Not everyone achieves that kind of success just because they 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.160 have that story in their background. And what's so interesting 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.320 about the sort of DNA ancestry work is that it's 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.600 opening us up to new stories that we weren't aware of, right, 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.120 And it's opening us up to the possibility of learning 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.240 new stories that we can tell ourselves. But you know, 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:33.960 I've got to say and challenge him a little bit. 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:35.720 You know, as a black American growing up in a 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.960 in a pro black household, I knew about Toussaint, I 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:43.000 knew about Christoph right has an historian of these times. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.800 I know that the Gabriel Rebellion in Virginia, those brothers 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.720 were trying to get to Haiti, right because they had 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:50.600 heard what had happened there. So it's really is a 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.720 kind of story that transcends boundaries and so, but it 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.560 is still a story that is shaped by the realities 0:07:57.720 --> 0:07:59.880 of the slave trade and the racial structures that we 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.960 all live with. And what we tried to do with 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.920 the twenty three and Me project was figure out how 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:09.600 much of those stories matter for the stories that Americans 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.480 tell themselves about their identities and their race even when 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.920 they do the genetic testing. And I would like to 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:21.760 intervene for a second if I may. So you definitely 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.680 made a strong point and about you you understanding and 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.360 you knowing the fact of history. But what was going 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:36.240 on right at the time was within a school system 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.520 that we was in, within a public school system, within 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:46.320 structure of academics, and what we were getting these stories 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:52.280 were not told, and of course in parts of America, 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:56.040 I'm sure that it was. But living in the projects 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.360 and and and growing up, so the way that a 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:04.040 lot of my friends found these stories, which was funny, 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:10.280 was through the vendors in the streets. So a lot 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.520 of this knowledge. I wanted to throw that in there. 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.800 So you had two parts of education going on. You 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.080 had that formal and then you had the brothers and 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.040 the sisters on the street, like yo, this is the 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.960 part of it. That So when I'm listening to like 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.440 nas illmatic, you know, and we talked about different books 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.360 like you know, Egyptian Book of the Dead or you 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.240 know the israel Lights that will keep you on the 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.319 street and debate for you with you for like a 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.800 hundred million dollars. Yeah, you like it. It's too hot. 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:41.520 But and at the same time, though it's like this 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.000 was it was, it's so important, like within this so 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.520 when we're talking about like DNA structure and everything, and 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:49.040 where did it come from? So class wise, there was 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.360 two forms of education. There was one going on in 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.400 institution for us, and then one going on outside, which 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.360 was the streets. I totally agree. Where I found out 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.600 about the Hasty Revolution was from that same informal, uh 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.160 sort of education West Philadelphia. My parents household the books 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.480 that were there. It wasn't in the school system. And 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.840 that's exactly the point that I'm making is that that absence, 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:17.320 that lack of information was intentional, as intentional as the 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:21.240 billion dollars that Haiti had to pay in reparations after 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.280 defeating the French, which is still the reason today that 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.280 Haiti's poor. Right, it's all part of the same and 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.319 I shared a lot of the same story. I mean, look, 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.000 I have a Nigerian name, We're not Nigerian, right. My 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.000 mom was like a very woke woman back in the 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.840 sixties and seventies and wanted to reclaim some part of 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.880 our own African narrative and story, and so I heard 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.480 some of these things outside of the classroom, getting quizzed 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.320 on all the nations of Africa, and I'm like eight 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.760 years old to make sure I entered this world with 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.760 a dual set of skills. So I appreciate both of 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.520 these perspectives, which aren't even different perspectives. Al you made 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.640 reference to a project, and I want to go a 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.600 little deeper on this survey that you've done that examines 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.680 American's attitude towards race and genetics. Can you describe the 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:07.839 study and and tell us some highlights of what you 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.319 found out, especially things that we might not expect. Sure, well, 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.720 you know we're living in tense times when it comes 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:19.040 to racial and ethnic issues. All of the surveys that 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.920 we see in the media that academics like my self 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.160 conduct show that tensions are on the rise. Americans are 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.560 deeply concerned about the way our politics is spilling over 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.760 into our social interactions, our neighborhood interactions. And it's a 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.880 very tense moment in our in our republic, in our democracy. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.679 And so what twenty three and me wanted to know, 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.000 what Joanna Mountain and an which I you wanted to know, 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:48.520 was how much is an idea of the genetic race 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:54.680 concept playing in these rising tensions. And also, how is 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.400 the work that they're doing at their company affecting the climate? 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:02.760 Is it sort of leading to positive self understanding where 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.280 people can bridge some of these differences, or you know, 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.160 is it reafying race? Is it? Is it making making 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.760 it worse? Right? And and and I give Joanna and 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.640 An a lot of credit for just wanting to know. 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.520 I mean, they came to me and said, you know, 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.960 you know about race relations. How can we design a 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.720 study where we can see what Americans think about the 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.400 relationship between genetics and race. So, spoiler force, what's the answer. 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.520 Are we better? Are we worse with what's going on? 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:32.680 We're a hell of a lot better than I thought 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:37.480 we were. So so what I expected as the expert 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.880 on race is that about two thirds of Americans would believe, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:45.240 uh that race and genetics are tightly bound together. We 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.520 actually found the opposite. Only about a third of Americans 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.000 nationally see a strong connection. But you know, if you 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:56.120 think about our popular parlance or are are common everyday talk, 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.520 we hear things like, oh man, he can't jump he's white, 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.080 or let's think about the news stories. The reason we 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.240 need affirmative action at places like M. I. T. And 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:09.719 Yale or Stanford is because Latino kids, uh, you know, 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.960 we're black kids. They can't get these test scores. And 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.160 this is the Bell curve argument, Charles Murray. And so 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:21.120 we expected these types of scientific understandings of race to 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.520 be widely distributed in the popular consciousness, and they're not. 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.920 And that's good news because it means it's all social. 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.920 Is it that people don't think that race is defined 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.640 by genetics or they don't think that the stereotypes of 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:39.400 racial performance and superiority are defined by It's both. It's 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.200 more the first, but we did test for the second 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.560 thing as well. So about a third of Americans and 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:51.120 all of the big census demographic categories believe that race 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.520 is defined by genetics. But there are variations. So white 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.040 Americans believe in that that third and you know that's white, 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.760 they believe in it slightly more strongly than the other groups. Right, 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.760 But then when you start to ask people questions about 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.880 realms of human possibility or the way that we behave 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:15.320 in the world athletics, cooking, dancezing, all things that you 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.200 and white you know, our world champions at right, we 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:23.160 see sort of a creeping up of black and Latino 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.280 and Asian responses in the belief that so so Blacks 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.600 believe that there's a little bit more genetic mix with sports, right, 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.320 Latinos believe it with the cooking, or right, and so 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.440 so the things in which the group has narratives of dominance. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.440 That third creeps up a little bit. And I think 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.520 that there's a scientific, scientific explanation for it, but overall, 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.760 most people in all these groups don't see the science 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.680 as part of an explanation. So we've established in this series, 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.120 and I think anyone who starts to look at genetics, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.400 we'll discover this interesting statistics and whack left. I love 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.320 your take onto someone who seen so much in the world. 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.800 We're not to that point genetically the same. There's zero 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:08.040 point five percent difference between all humans that genetically explains 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.480 how we're not quite like each other. And we spent 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.000 a lot of time focusing on that zero point five 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.360 percent difference. First of all, what's your reaction to that 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.560 idea white left? Well, I mean, first, I'm excited. I 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.720 just took my DNA test. I'm waiting for the results. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.800 My daughter said, I'm one percent white so why should 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:34.080 say that I don't know, we gotta I don't know. Um. So, 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.800 once again, it's very interesting just listening to the overall statistics, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:44.119 Like I'm very surprised, I would say, like traveling probably 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.880 half of the globe. I think it's something that everyone 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.160 should know, Like we have so much more in common 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.680 then you could even imagine. It's like the basic thing. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.120 You put two kids together, They're gonna want to wake up, 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.240 They're gonna want to play, they're gonna want to have 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.840 a good time, they're gonna have as they get older, 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:08.520 they're gonna want to fall in love, they're gonna have opinions. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.080 This is every kid like, and they all have a heart. 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.320 Within this heart, it's going to be shaped. And I 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:20.720 just think that a lot of times we just forget that, 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.600 right and because I just think like through the idea 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:31.360 of politics and religion at times, these two things. At 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:36.800 times it separates the fact that from a cell we become, 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.280 and so this is important, From a cell we become. 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.320 And I always go back to that because I mean, 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.200 science will prove it. So this cell, like, however you 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.280 want to look at it any part of the world, 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:55.120 it's not like it doesn't appear as some like holy grail, 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.600 you know what I mean, Like this coming from this 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.320 side of the region, it's a holy grail cell, you know, 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:04.000 coming from So whether we're in the Middle East, we're 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.840 in Africa, we're in Haiti, and in all parts of 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:11.719 the world, we find common ground within the structure of 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.800 the youth no matter what. And I always tell people like, 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:18.040 this is part of it that you should definitely think of. 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:20.000 I'm gonna give you a case studies. So before I 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.480 was here, I was in uh Georgia right next to Russia, 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:27.520 then Turkey, then Switzerland. Right then I come back all 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.200 the way on this side, and I'm in Alburquerque. I'm 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.600 in New Mexico, and I'm in the six oh six 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.040 and I'm chilling in the six h six and man, 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.280 like yo, man, do you know this is where Billy 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.320 the Kid hung out at and they used to and 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.280 he got killed three hours from here. Right now, they're 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.560 having a conversation about Billy the Kid, and then it 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:53.479 goes beyond Billy the Kid to a conversation about mighty 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:58.359 warrior Indians. And within this conversation, now you can see 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.440 the conversation is happening amongst the youth, right, and then 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.680 you have Mexicans, you have Americans, you have but within 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:10.480 the youth there's no fire arms. It's this ideology of conversation. 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.760 So I always think like past the point of science, right, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.479 even nostro diamonds right, the idea of saying like, okay, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.520 he has the gift, and then who who is Christian 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.040 in heart right understands like they still have to be 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.000 a bigger explanation of things. And I think sometimes we 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:32.000 cry at death. We cry when when people die, we cry, 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.200 But the idea of birth, which is the greater miracle, 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.400 like we don't really pay attention to that. And I 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.920 think that we're selfish when we're leaving po. You don't 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.520 want to see somebody leave you. You love the idea 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:46.640 of them being born, but you don't want to see 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.520 them leave. And I think that when we are born 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:53.960 right and from this cell we become. I think the 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.639 unification as the world moves forward, it's understand that the 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.560 kids are more unified then we are as adults. It's 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:05.360 so important to understand that all you know something that 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.520 that white left was talking about with the politics and 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.720 the religion. It reminds me a bit of your study 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.280 and the survey. You have this people looking for the 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:17.080 scientific explanation of race, but it turns out it's more 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.439 of a social explanation. And what we cling to is 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.399 not based in science. It's based in our behavior and 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:28.960 how we live together. Does that give you more concern 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.919 or more hope? Well, it makes me more hopeful, right, 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:37.280 I mean again, starting from my knowledge of how Americans 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:43.360 think about race and the ways in which powerful institutions, government, 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:49.120 sort of financial, sort of our geared towards structuring our lives. 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.240 To disrupt the beautiful narrative that white cleft is talking about. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.280 White cleft is absolutely right. If you go to a 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.959 classroom of children below the age of five, they have 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:05.280 no consciousness of what races. They know that you know, 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.760 my friend Isaac or Johnny skin maybe brown or white, 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.320 and mind is different, but they have they attached no 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:18.280 moral judgments and whatsoever to those differences. So they're taught 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:24.080 by adults. It's all around them. They're taught by institutions. Right, 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.840 and so has someone that's spent their life. I spent 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.440 my entire life combating sort of racial inequalities and trying 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.000 to bring us together. The idea that this is one 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.879 less front that I have to fight on, that we 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.320 as a society have to fight on, is incredibly hopeful 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.159 to me, because, of course, you know, we in the 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.160 social sciences and sciences, we've we've known for thirty years 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.679 that it's not genetic, but we were worried about what 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:51.159 the man on the street with the woman on the 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.760 street things, because, as I said, all these inequalities that 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:59.280 we live with today, that Haiti lives with today started 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:04.800 with taking narratives about that point five skin color difference 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:07.880 that we have that makes us these visible differences and 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.400 giving them the weight of science. So people are brought 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:16.040 from Congo and Benin to Haiti and Georgia and Virginia, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.400 where my people are from, because the slavers believe that 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:23.400 their brown and black skin would make them better suited 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.960 to work on plantations in the hot sun. Right. That's 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:32.320 a scientific explanation, pseudo scientific, it's a cultural explanation for 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:37.040 cruelty that is freighted with science. Right. And so you know, 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.879 the idea that we have one less front to disrupt 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.160 this narrative on is very very hopeful to me. It's 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.919 good news. This survey is good news. We have a 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.600 lot more that we need to find out, but this 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.199 is a fantastic start. So let me test a pseudo 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:55.600 scientific theory on you. As we saw the fast paced, 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.800 relatively recent, fast paced acceptance of marriage equality in this country, 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.679 one of the reasons offered was more of us started 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.920 realizing we have gay and lesbian brothers and sisters within 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.119 our own families, like they are part of us. We 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:12.479 are part of them, and so they're not so distant. 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.200 It's not a whole other. It's like, oh, that's my cousin. 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.000 As we start to do more of these different genetic 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.640 tests and find out, oh, I gotta got a little 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:23.960 congo in me, got a little banine in me, do 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:26.680 you see any similar possibility or is that just way 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.560 too naive and hopeful. No, it's not not even hopeful 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:31.640 at all. We we don't know. And I think that's 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:34.920 the next enterprise for for the Center for the Study 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:37.240 of Diversity and Democracy in twenty three to take on. 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.080 We can get at that with experimental research, and we 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.199 hope to figure that out. But but there is a 0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:46.359 worry that you know, for example, the testing can cut 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:50.600 both ways. You can have someone saying I am you know, 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:57.200 one percent Congolese, and so I should get the same 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:01.959 type of consideration in universe see emissions or or employment 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.959 that someone who is ninety nine nine percent Congolese and 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.200 lived in you know the projects in New Work or 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.200 you know Westfielle. You know. So this is coming right, 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.080 and so there are dangers there. But but the hope 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:17.679 is that it is like the story in the twenty 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.360 three and Me commercial where the young woman's I think 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:24.000 her name is McKinney, she's got this very genomic scan 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.880 up and she's she says, I'm going to Cultivoir, where 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.680