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Speaker 1: February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,

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Speaker 1: drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.

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Speaker 1: Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,

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Speaker 1: interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting

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Speaker 1: new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven

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Speaker 1: sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen, the new

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Speaker 1: network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius

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Speaker 1: XM Triumph Channel one thirty two. The search is on

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Speaker 1: for a missing two week old baby. She was only

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Speaker 1: fifteen days old, but even in that short time, Tim

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Speaker 1: Bell loved every ounce of his little granddaughter, Callia mcnaughn.

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Speaker 1: She was tiny, You had to feet every two hours

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Speaker 1: changing the little diapers, and her little head was about

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Speaker 1: the south of Tinnis Balls. Her parents said they fed

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Speaker 1: and changed her at five day and Saturday they reported

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Speaker 1: her missing at ten that morning. Jenny want I just

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Speaker 1: woke up? My do want me up? On account I

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Speaker 1: had a two year old and I had two weeks old.

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Speaker 1: My two weeks old is not her sleeper. Her passes

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Speaker 1: on the floor. She's not her. She's not in her sleeper,

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Speaker 1: she's not here. Who got my kid? Man? But I

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Speaker 1: want my kid back, man, that's my job and I

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Speaker 1: want my too. It Man, A fifteen day old baby girl,

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Speaker 1: Khalia McNabb goes missing. I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us and all points bulletin

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Speaker 1: and amber alert goes out for baby Khalia straight out

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Speaker 1: to Dave Mac, syndicated talk show host joining us. Dave Mac,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell me about the fifteen day old

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Speaker 1: baby gone missing? Because Ashley Wilcot, you're a child advocate,

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Speaker 1: you're with me at fifteen days one of my children

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Speaker 1: were still in the nick that would be Lucy Way

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Speaker 1: in a big two pounds, and I spent the rest

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Speaker 1: of my time staring at John David to make sure

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Speaker 1: he was breathing. So, how does the fifteen day old

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Speaker 1: baby go missing? It's not like it can, you know,

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Speaker 1: go outside and catch an uber, Dave Mat. How does

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Speaker 1: the baby girl go missing? Nancy? It's one of those

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Speaker 1: stories where the parents say that the last time they

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Speaker 1: saw the baby when they fed her at five o'clock

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Speaker 1: in the morning on a Saturday morning. Then they went

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Speaker 1: back to check on her between nine and ten, and

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Speaker 1: she was gone, hold on, I know, I'm just a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: Dave Matt, but let me just do the math here.

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Speaker 1: Five am to nine thirty, So a newborn baby manages

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Speaker 1: to be unattended for four and a half hours. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's incredible to me because when mine were that age,

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Speaker 1: it was about every two hours they had to be fed.

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Speaker 1: Plus I was already staring at them anyway, So let

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Speaker 1: me understand this, Dave Max indicated, talk to your host.

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Speaker 1: You're telling me the mom and the dad had their

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Speaker 1: eyes on the baby around five am? Is that correct? Correct?

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Speaker 1: To Dr Daniel Ober forensic psychiatrists you're joining me. Dr Bober,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. They do call nine

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Speaker 1: one one immediately after discovering the babies not there, don't they? Yes, Nancy, uh,

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Speaker 1: And that's what you would expect, um, I did you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it was odd that they would the babies

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Speaker 1: would disappear from their site for a total of four hours.

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Speaker 1: That did seem a little odd to me, As you say,

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Speaker 1: you know, usually these feedings are every two hours, so

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering what was going on during that time period.

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Speaker 1: But yes, calling nine one one is obviously the thing

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Speaker 1: to do. I want you to hear the nine one

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Speaker 1: one call for yourself. Listen, eaton, Kenny. I wan'tres the emergency.

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Speaker 1: I just woke up. I don't let me up on

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Speaker 1: the couch. Um. I have a two year old and

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Speaker 1: I have a two week old. And my two week

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Speaker 1: old is not in her sleeper. Her pasties on the floor,

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Speaker 1: she's not in her saper, she's not in your sleeper,

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Speaker 1: She's not here. I've looked everyone. I've looked under clothes

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Speaker 1: and everything. What's your addressing highlight? Yes? What thirty one?

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Speaker 1: Do you think somebody took her? Ma'am? My child took

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Speaker 1: my two year old says she's gone, And I've looked

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Speaker 1: at her in the house, so I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: know another possibility. What light number are you at? Thirty one? Okay?

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Speaker 1: And you said you were sleeping, woke up and she

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Speaker 1: was gonne? Yes, my my my two year old. Paene

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Speaker 1: worked me up. That's fend that was on account. How

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Speaker 1: old is she, ma'am? Two weeks old? Okay? Man? You

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Speaker 1: know who else would have come in your house? I mean,

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Speaker 1: as far as I know, nobody would have came in

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Speaker 1: my house, my tweear old sis papa. But I called

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Speaker 1: my dad and I called my grandparents and they don't

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Speaker 1: have a My dad's on the way right now, Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, how long could you even sleep? Um? The

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Speaker 1: last time I woke up with her was around I

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Speaker 1: guess five maybe? Okay, so you were asleep since five o'clock? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even mean if I will sleep on the

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Speaker 1: house down after dealing with her own country or can

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Speaker 1: you tell if someone's been there? Is her blanket? They're gone,

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Speaker 1: her blankets gone, her past. He is here on the

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Speaker 1: floor a blankets not with us. I don't know with

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Speaker 1: I mean, I I don't know. I guess it's with her, okay.

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Speaker 1: And I have clothes and toads. But I've looked all

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Speaker 1: in home and she's not here. Anything else missing, like

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Speaker 1: a baby bag that she would that you would have,

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Speaker 1: or anything else. Her bottles here on top of my shelf. Okay,

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Speaker 1: in my bathroom, ma'am. Huh? Yeah? What about anything else

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Speaker 1: that could possibly have gone, like could be herd could

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Speaker 1: have gone with her? Um? No, nothing else? Just heard

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Speaker 1: her blanket. Okay. So the only thing is miss death

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Speaker 1: missing is her in her blanket. He didn't talk to

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Speaker 1: the dad or grandma or anybody my dad looking at

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Speaker 1: when me. Dad just left and he was walking around

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Speaker 1: the park looking for her because my two year olds

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Speaker 1: is I asked her, did somebody to come in and

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Speaker 1: take her? And she said, yeah, but I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: she's too so I don't know if I can that

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Speaker 1: or she looked through everything like under the bed. Yes, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: yesterd'am okay, okay, ya, all right. What's your name, ma'am?

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Speaker 1: Courtney Bell C O R C and E Y B

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Speaker 1: E L L. Just to let you know, Courtney, they've

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Speaker 1: been on the way out there. I'm just getting this

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Speaker 1: information to update them. Okay, thank you too much. What's

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Speaker 1: your phone number? Um, I'm not sure if this number

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Speaker 1: my phone bust is the other day? Um, my grandmother's phone.

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Speaker 1: She's been with me. All right, So you and the

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Speaker 1: dad both were I'm just trying to get to understand

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Speaker 1: if I can let them know because of the questions

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Speaker 1: that they're asking me. You and her dad both were

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Speaker 1: sleeping or he just came back home. Now I woke

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Speaker 1: up together. She woke us up together. Okay. The two

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Speaker 1: year awoke y'all up and told you all that the

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Speaker 1: baby was gone. Yeah, okay, she she was kind of

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Speaker 1: freaked out. I mean, I don't I don't know, because

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Speaker 1: she was just standing there beside the house in the

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Speaker 1: corner and I told her came here and I loved honor,

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Speaker 1: and then I told my baby's dad to go check

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Speaker 1: on Khalilah. And then you're talking about she's not in here.

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Speaker 1: She's not in here. Okay, Well the police should be

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Speaker 1: in the area. Now, thank you. I'll go ahead and

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Speaker 1: let you go, okay. Than another issue, actually, Wilcot joining

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Speaker 1: me child advocate. The baby was put to bed, back

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Speaker 1: to bed, was fed and changed according to the parents,

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Speaker 1: at five am on a Saturday morning, and put back

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Speaker 1: in bed with her two year old sister. Now you

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Speaker 1: and I know about coach sleep. Absolutely not supposed to

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Speaker 1: go sleep, and a lot of people don't know that.

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Speaker 1: But what strikes me about that is whoever would have

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Speaker 1: taken the baby, would it have woken up the two

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Speaker 1: year old sister. A long time ago, before I had children,

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Speaker 1: I would say, of course, you come in the room,

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Speaker 1: you get a child out of the bed. Of course

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Speaker 1: it's going to wake up the other child. Not necessarily true, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: because I can pick up one of my children and

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Speaker 1: move them to another bed and they don't remember a

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Speaker 1: thing about it. The next morning, they have no idea

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Speaker 1: how they ended up where they were. So, and they're nine,

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Speaker 1: ash so it can happen. It would not surprise me

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Speaker 1: that the two year old sister did not wake up.

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Speaker 1: I agree, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But remember

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Speaker 1: this is also a tiny, tiny baby. They said the

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Speaker 1: head could fit in a person's hand, and so being

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Speaker 1: such a tiny baby, you're right, they may not at

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Speaker 1: all notice a two year old man, not at all

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Speaker 1: notice if a little baby is picked up, even if

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Speaker 1: the baby is sleeping right next to the two year old. Now,

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Speaker 1: did the two year old over on the baby and

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Speaker 1: suffocate the baby? May maybe they're sleeping in the same bed.

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Speaker 1: That's danger. You know what's interesting, Ashley, Well, got to

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Speaker 1: this day people insist that Burke Ramsey killed John Benet Ramsey,

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Speaker 1: which is statistically virtually impossible. Okay, you know, a sibling side,

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Speaker 1: as it's called in slang, uh sibling side is very

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Speaker 1: very rare. Plus if you look back at Burke and

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Speaker 1: John Benet, she was the dynamo. Burt was the one

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Speaker 1: that was frell and pale, look like she could crack

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Speaker 1: him in half. I never bought into that theory. The

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Speaker 1: likelihood that a two year old little girl could roll

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Speaker 1: over on an infant, while technically possible, I find very unlikely.

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Speaker 1: Somebody took the baby out of the crib. And remember

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Speaker 1: we're basing all of this on the parents timeline. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to the father as he begs, begs Christopher

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Speaker 1: McNabb begging for the return of his baby girl, Khalia,

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Speaker 1: who got my kids? Man? But I want my kid back, man,

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Speaker 1: that's much I want my kid? Man? So what happened

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Speaker 1: to Kaliah McNabb. Let's just talk forensically for one moment

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Speaker 1: with me is forensics expert, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville

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Speaker 1: State University, Joseph Scott, Morgan, Just Scott, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with me, along with Dr Daniel Bober, Dave Matt

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Speaker 1: and Ashley Wilcot. Joe Scott. Let's just break it down.

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Speaker 1: I have handled many cases where a child disappears from

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Speaker 1: their own bedroom. This family did not have an alarm system.

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Speaker 1: Anybody could have gotten into that home very very easy

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Speaker 1: access they were in a community where the homes are

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Speaker 1: very close together. Nobody heard anything, nobody saw anything. But

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Speaker 1: still the likely hood of an intruder, a stranger taking

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Speaker 1: the baby out of the bedroom is low, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: true at malls or at fairs or out in the

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Speaker 1: public to come into your home and take your baby

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Speaker 1: a stranger kidnap very low likelihood. But it does happen.

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Speaker 1: Do I have to say, Polly Class or Elizabeth Smart,

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Speaker 1: it does happen, Joe Scott. It doesn't easy. But I

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Speaker 1: tell my students at at university in my criminal Investigations

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Speaker 1: club that the cases they're gonna work as investigators, they're

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Speaker 1: they're gonna be looking at intimates far more frequently than

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Speaker 1: they will at strangers. And you will have more means,

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Speaker 1: opportunity and motive in that context with the people that

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Speaker 1: you live with. Uh. And this is kind of making

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Speaker 1: me scratch my head. How would someone uh just out

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Speaker 1: of the blue snatch this little angel out of the

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Speaker 1: bed and then they disappear for this extremely long amount

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Speaker 1: of time without any accountability whatsoever. Uh. It makes me

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Speaker 1: look really hard. Now, it's people that are in dwelling

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Speaker 1: this this house, and also any individuals that may have

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Speaker 1: had access to this house. Who do we know? Dave

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Speaker 1: Max indicated talk show host who had access to the home. Again,

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Speaker 1: there's no burglary alarm system, nothing like that. What relatives

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Speaker 1: or neighbors could get into this home? Nancy? As you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: they did live in an area that had a number

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Speaker 1: of other homes nearby. There was no alarm system, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was access, and there were family members nearby because

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Speaker 1: they actually were helping in the search. So there's any

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Speaker 1: number of people that could have had access if in

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Speaker 1: fact the baby was kidnapped. Now, I want you to

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Speaker 1: listen now to sound that we have obtained for you

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Speaker 1: of a convenience store clerk that came upon the father,

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Speaker 1: Christopher McNabb. You just heard him pleading for his child's return. Listen.

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Speaker 1: He just come in and he said, how you remember

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Speaker 1: making my last night? And a duthor he said, you sure,

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Speaker 1: I'll see you, sir. He remember my baby is the

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Speaker 1: one that got kidnapped, and said, y'all don't leave me.

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Speaker 1: Y'all don't leave me. That's him, that's h him. And

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Speaker 1: then they were standing there and I said, please don't

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Speaker 1: leave me. And then he started calling and talking about

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Speaker 1: they're gonna get me. They're gonna get me. I'll been

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Speaker 1: running on day then in the woods I day and

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Speaker 1: I tried to call nine one one anyone would go through,

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Speaker 1: and I was called again when you go through. And

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Speaker 1: then the third time I called, it went through and

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Speaker 1: he's still seeing it here, and I said, uh. He said,

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Speaker 1: they're not gonna get me. He said, and then anybody

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Speaker 1: trust them. We mean they're gonna get in trouble too.

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Speaker 1: And I said, okay, okay, but I don't remember you

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Speaker 1: like that, you know. And then he went to the door.

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Speaker 1: And when he went to the door, I hit it

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Speaker 1: again and got nine one one and I called nine

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Speaker 1: one one again and I got him and I said,

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Speaker 1: he's here. He's at thirty six at the Chevron. He's

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Speaker 1: in my store and he's going crazy. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what his problem is, but he said he was running

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Speaker 1: from the cops. He'd been hit in the woods all day.

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Speaker 1: I said, he's he's really scary. Somebody needs to get

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Speaker 1: there quick. And lastly, to know that that baby is

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Speaker 1: is dead, what does that mean to you? He's considered

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Speaker 1: a person who's attentuous. He is a son of interest,

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Speaker 1: but He kept saying, I didn't do it. I didn't

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Speaker 1: do it, We didn't do it. They did it. And

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Speaker 1: when y'all are go, when y'all find out who really

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Speaker 1: did it, but I didn't do it. There you were

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Speaker 1: hearing the father, Christopher McNabb, who understandably was erratic and

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Speaker 1: almost crazy, acting upon the news that his baby girl

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Speaker 1: was found in a duffel bag in the woods. The

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Speaker 1: baby found in a duffel bag in a in the woods,

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Speaker 1: Volunteer search crews say they find fifteen day old Khalia

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Speaker 1: McNabb stuffed in a duffel bag. Stuffed in a duffel bag.

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Speaker 1: The county sheriff says that when they tried to speak

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Speaker 1: to the father, Christopher McNabb, he jumped out of a

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Speaker 1: car and ran away. Ashley Wilcot jumped out of the

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Speaker 1: car and ran away. If Mike child, God forbid, this

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Speaker 1: ever happened, is missing. Do you think I'm gonna jump

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Speaker 1: out of a car and run away. Oh oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'll jump out of a car and run towards a

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Speaker 1: sheriff car to find my child. Right, it's guilty. He's

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Speaker 1: guilty of something. He's even if it's just probation violation.

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Speaker 1: But I would stand by the he or the mother

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Speaker 1: in the house with this infant know what happened. If

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Speaker 1: they didn't do it, what do we know, Dave Matt

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Speaker 1: about his behavior. He actually he got out and started running.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole thing is that there they found his baby.

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Speaker 1: He's been swearing up and down that he's wanting to

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Speaker 1: find his child, that he didn't do anything, and yet

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Speaker 1: the minute they tell him, hey, we found the baby,

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Speaker 1: he takes off running and he's gone for several hours.

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Speaker 1: We are bringing you the latest in the disappearance of

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Speaker 1: a fifteen day old baby girl, Khaliah McNabb, the parents,

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Speaker 1: Christopher McNabb and Courtney Belle. That brings me to another

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Speaker 1: question to Dr Daniel Bober Where was the mom all

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Speaker 1: this time? How can she not know the dad is

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Speaker 1: now charged? How could she not know what was going

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Speaker 1: on in her own home. Well, that's that's the whole point. Ye. Circumstantially,

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't really add up. It just seems like

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of information and needs. Are the people that, like your

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Speaker 1: last guests, that are the intimate season people that should

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Speaker 1: really know what the whereabouts of the child are, and

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Speaker 1: no one seems to really know anything. Uh, and it

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Speaker 1: just doesn't really seem to fit. No, it doesn't fit.

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Speaker 1: And when it doesn't fit, there's a reason, just got Morgan. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: absolutely there is. And I think that, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're as as forensics people and investigators were always having

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Speaker 1: to observe the abnormal in the context of the normal.

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Speaker 1: This is not marrying up with what you would expect

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Speaker 1: out of normal behavior from people that are in charge

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Speaker 1: of not just a fifteen deal baby, but a fifteen

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Speaker 1: deal premature baby. These are the most fragile among us Nancy,

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Speaker 1: as you well know, and require the most intensive care possible.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking about in hospital. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about once they get this child at home. So it

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Speaker 1: really paused. Police questioned the mother, Khaliah's mother, and she

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Speaker 1: was released. However, the baby's father, Christopher McNabb, when he

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Speaker 1: found out the baby's body had been discovered, he took

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Speaker 1: off running. Now, the law in that jurisdiction is that

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Speaker 1: a judge would never give a jury an instruction on flight. However,

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Speaker 1: it can be argued by the prosecutor. You know, let

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Speaker 1: me ask you a question, Dave Matt. When you're driving

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Speaker 1: on the interstate and you see the Georgia State Patrol

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Speaker 1: pot behind you, I assume that you might tap on

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Speaker 1: the brakes and slow down, but you don't take off

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Speaker 1: at nine mph to get away from them, or jump

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Speaker 1: out of your car and run on foot because you

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Speaker 1: don't have a reason to what you can argue to

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Speaker 1: a jury, Dave Matt, that flight is evidence of guilt. Yes, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: On on top of all that, Nancy, if you were

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Speaker 1: looking for your baby, your fifteen day old baby, and

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Speaker 1: the police pullet behind you, the first thing you're gonna

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Speaker 1: do a slam on the breaks, assuming they've got information.

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Speaker 1: Not the opposite to Joseph Scott Morrigan, death investigator and

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics at Jacksonvia State University. What do we know

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Speaker 1: about the autopsy? You know? And answer? Given that the

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Speaker 1: g b I has just released the cause of death

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Speaker 1: in this particular case involving this child, this raises all

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Speaker 1: kinds of new questions. It's no longer a matter of

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Speaker 1: some kind of natural event. Maybe they the child just

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Speaker 1: passed away in their sleep and the parents were trying

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Speaker 1: to hide it. Now we're truly faced with what appears

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Speaker 1: to be, at least on the surface, homicidal trauma. The

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Speaker 1: m E has now come out and said that this

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Speaker 1: was in fact the death as a result of blunt

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Speaker 1: force trauma. And there's a lot that there is to

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Speaker 1: consider here moving forward. How are we gonna handle the

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Speaker 1: witnesses in this particular case, how are they gonna be questioned.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully they're going to keep these people separated so that

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Speaker 1: they can't try to, you know, get their stories straight

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Speaker 1: among themselves. And then we have to consider this idea

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Speaker 1: of what generated this injury. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that the EMMY is going to be looking at is

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Speaker 1: was this an instrument that created this trauma, like a

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Speaker 1: blunt object or was it a bare hand. One other

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Speaker 1: thing that we have to consider here that is not

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Speaker 1: off of the table is was this child dropped on

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Speaker 1: their head that brought about this trauma? And you know

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Speaker 1: that that's obviously a distinct possibility, and it's it's gonna

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Speaker 1: they're gonna have to go some distance, i think, to

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Speaker 1: to kind of paint this picture. But now the police

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Speaker 1: have all of the information that they need at this

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Speaker 1: point as far as the physical cause of death to

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Speaker 1: go into these rooms and question everybody involved in this case,

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Speaker 1: very very specifically interesting. The mother is not detained. The

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Speaker 1: father charged on an unrelated probation violation that could be

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Speaker 1: anything from a jaywalking to m A d u hy,

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Speaker 1: It could be anything. To Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist, I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious about the mother, the mother of the baby.

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Speaker 1: How can she not know what happened to the baby?

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Speaker 1: The baby's gone and stuffed in a duffel bag and

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Speaker 1: left in the woods. Dr Boba, Yes, Nancy, you know

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Speaker 1: I've worked in pediatrics, and you know what your guests

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Speaker 1: said is true about especially about premise um. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: parents never leave their side. I mean, these are parents

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Speaker 1: that basically live in the nick there by the incubator.

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Speaker 1: They don't leave, They don't even go to the bathroom.

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Speaker 1: And when the babies are home, you know, we know,

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Speaker 1: for example, that premature infants can have a higher risk

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Speaker 1: of crib death. They are terrified, petrified that something is

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Speaker 1: going to happen, and they never leave their side. So

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Speaker 1: the timeline that the parents provided in the fact that

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Speaker 1: the babies were out of sight for so long, just

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Speaker 1: doesn't add up at all. It really doesn't too Ashley Willcott,

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Speaker 1: lawyer and child advocate. Ashley, I want to hear your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on the mother. She has to know what happened.

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Speaker 1: I do not believe that this infant, who by all

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Speaker 1: accounts has to be fed every two hours, was left

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Speaker 1: alone in a crib with a two year old for

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Speaker 1: more than four hours, and the mother of that infant

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Speaker 1: doesn't know what happened. If she was there, she has

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Speaker 1: to if not complicit. I just cannot believe that those

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Speaker 1: two individuals in this house do not know what happened

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Speaker 1: to their now dead baby. We are on the case

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Speaker 1: on little baby Khalia. Let me pause and thank our

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Speaker 1: partner shining a light on unsolved Thomas sides and missing people.

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Speaker 1: When you run your own business, you know time equals money.

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00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 1: That's not just an old saying, it's true. So why

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00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 1: waste your valuable time dealing with issues legal zoom can

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00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: help with. You may already know over two million people

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Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot com. Is there a major break and

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Speaker 1: the search for the beautiful little girl who goes missing

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Speaker 1: while our parents are on vacation. Mattie McCann also known

400
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Speaker 1: as Madeli McCann. She's absolutely beautiful and you can't take er.

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Speaker 1: One eye is a slightly different color than the other eye.

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00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: She is physically beautiful and apparently was a happy, happy

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Speaker 1: little girl. Her parents go on vacation and tragically agree

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Speaker 1: to have dinner about a football field link away from

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Speaker 1: the apartment where the children are asleep as my understanding

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Speaker 1: Dave Max Indicated talk show, as they can actually see

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Speaker 1: the apartment. The room where the children are sleep from

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00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: where they are and they meet with another group of

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Speaker 1: people and they're out having dinner within eyeshot. Now to

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Speaker 1: me a football field linked the way is a long way,

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Speaker 1: but still there is within eyesight. And when they go

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Speaker 1: back to check on her, she's gone. The other children

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Speaker 1: are there, Maddie is gone. Um, what is the break

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Speaker 1: in the case, Dave mac The break right now, and

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Speaker 1: the reason we're talking about it is they are looking

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Speaker 1: for a widow woman, a woman they believe that she

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00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: lived near this holiday flat at the time Madeline vanished

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00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: in May of two thousand seven. They believed that before

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Speaker 1: she left. Then she left the country after her husband

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Speaker 1: passed away. And they don't know her exact location, somewhere

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Speaker 1: in eastern Europe. But that's the big break. What we

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00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: know right now is police are desperately searching for a

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Speaker 1: woman of Eastern European descent who is, as they say,

424
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: a quote, criminal witness and the disappearance of Maddie mccamp.

425
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: Now how they didn't know this until right now, I

426
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: don't know, but I do know. This Scotland yard has

427
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: just allocated another one d and fifty four thousand pounds Alan,

428
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: You'll have to look up and tell me what that

429
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: is in dollars a hundred and fifty four thousand British

430
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: pounds in operation granges twelve million pound budget to find

431
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: this woman, who detectives say could shed light on the

432
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: disappearance of Maddie McCann. Now she is believed to have

433
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: lived in Pride to lou where Madeleine vanished that may

434
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: before leaving the country after her husband died. Why are

435
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: they just now deciding that she is a forensic witness.

436
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: They're claiming, according to Scotland Yard, she may have seen

437
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: or heard something which to her may have been insignificant

438
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 1: but to us could prove vital. If she recognizes herself

439
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: from this description, she should contact police immediately. She has

440
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: nothing to fear. This is just to eliminate her from inquiries.

441
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: WHOA Okay, They are still working the theory that Maddie

442
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: was taken during a quote burglary gone wrong. What do

443
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: you make of it? Joining me child advocate and trial

444
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: lawyer Ashley will come and see. This is a tough one.

445
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: They're still searching. Because I have to believe in my

446
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: heart that no matter what happened to this child, whether

447
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 1: she's safe today or not, something's going to shake loose.

448
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: I think eventually it comes full circle and we will

449
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: know what happened to Mattie. But the only way that

450
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: can happen is if they continue the investigation, which thankfully

451
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: they're doing. The odd thing is, like you said, they're

452
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: now wanting to interview this witness, why not sooner? Holy

453
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 1: Molly Ashley, actually hold that back up, jack Jackie is

454
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: holding up her calculation. They've just been given two hundred

455
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: and three thousand dollars. That's nearly a quarter of a

456
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: million dollars. And this as we learned that internet trolls

457
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: had been bombarding Mattie mckinn's parents with hate meal over

458
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: the new cash infusion to find her. As investigators still

459
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: search for this woman of Eastern European descent. Of Eastern

460
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: European descent, police insists they think the woman has clues

461
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: to Mattie's disappearance. Now, this is something I don't understand,

462
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: Is it true, Dave mac According to sources, her parents

463
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: have been bombarded with hate mail. Why why would people

464
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: do that to the parents. Haven't they suffered enough? Nancy?

465
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: There are cowards who live on the Internet, and they

466
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: hide behind anonymous names and Facebook pages and things like that.

467
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: And there's many people that hold the parents responsible for

468
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: Maddie's disappearance and the amount of money that's been spent

469
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: on this case. So they come from several different angles,

470
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: and it's attack on a regular basis. Every time something

471
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: positive happens in this case, the trolls come out of

472
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: the woodwork and take over. I I it's almost like

473
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: a concerted effort to go after the McCann family. You

474
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: know what, of course you know. Joe Scott Morgan forensics

475
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: expert Joseph Scott Morgan is a professor of forensics at

476
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University and a death investigator. Joe Scott I

477
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: know why some people are skeptical, um, and that is

478
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: because when a child goes missing, statistically, more often than not,

479
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: someone within the family is involved. But in this case,

480
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: I think it's very clear that Maddie was alive when

481
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: they left for dinner and they came back and she's gone.

482
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 1: And yes, it doesn't happen very often, but it did

483
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: happen those I mean, at first, I was skeptical of

484
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: the meccans just because the statistics, but You've got a

485
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: whole group of people sitting around dinner with them, and

486
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 1: then there are the haters that blame them because they

487
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: went to dinner and left the children unattended. Within the investigation,

488
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: eliminate all those principles that are in the immediate orbit

489
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: of of of of the the person that's missing in

490
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: this case, this little girl. Eliminate them, and then you

491
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: can move forward. This is the troubling part, Nancy. Investigations

492
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: are conducted on a linear timeline. We the further we

493
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: move out in time. The further we move out in

494
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: time from that original point, the more memories get fade it,

495
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: the more evidence of roads. This sort of thing um encouraged.

496
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: Just like Ashley had mentioned that that they are still

497
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: on this case. There are many cases like this that

498
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: are sitting on desk all over the country here in

499
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: the US and all over the world that have just

500
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: collected dust. But for some reason, it seems as though

501
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: they know something. I think that with this new witness

502
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: that they want to speak with this this is this

503
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: is a really big deal and I'd be curious to

504
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: know what it is that this what information does this

505
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: person they didn't hold one year one year ago before

506
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: she disappeared, this woman of Eastern European descent that lived

507
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: near where Mattie went missing. I think it's just a

508
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: combination of people angry that the mccan's left Mattie and

509
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: her siblings alone. Um. Some people think that they're guilty,

510
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: that it's their fault that they they killed her. Um

511
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: and anger that maybe she's getting more attention or money

512
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: than other missing children, which is true. But I can

513
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: tell you this from a crime victim's point of view.

514
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm just happy that they're getting the money and that

515
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: they haven't given up hope, and that the investigation is

516
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: still happening. As they say, there's no indication this child

517
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: is dead after she went missing, her body or any

518
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: suggestion of her death was never found. And you know, Ashley,

519
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: you're a trial lawyer like me. I mean, you know,

520
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: those parents have gotten uh grilled repeatedly. They've been they've

521
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: taken a lie detector tests, they've done everything. You know,

522
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: That's who the investigators looked at first, and they have

523
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: said many times they are not suspect. And I think Nancy,

524
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: you've already identified the crucial thing, which is people do

525
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: not like these parents because they went to dinner and

526
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: left two young children unsupervised. But they've then taken that

527
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: and rushed to judgment to say it's therefore the parents fault,

528
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: which isn't true legally in this case. They it's not.

529
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: That's just a jump that a lot of um, angry,

530
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: critical people are are passing judgment on these two parents

531
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: who are still wanting to find their daughter that night,

532
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: the night that she went missing. As she walcott, what

533
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: happened that night when she went missing, I always go

534
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: back to the beginning. Well, they were at dinner, they

535
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: come back, she's gone, She's not there, and they were

536
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: very clear. My recollection is when they were initially interviewed,

537
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: the yes, they could see where they were staying from dinner,

538
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: even if it was a football field, the way it

539
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: was in eyesight, and they didn't see the daughter leave.

540
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: They didn't see anyone take the daughter. It is a

541
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: true crime mystery. They don't know what happened, but something

542
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: They have been diligent and adamant that they will continue

543
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: to search for their daughter, and they will not lose

544
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: hope or give up. And boy, and not a whole

545
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: lot different than they dad who ran. When it's fifteen

546
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: day old was found dead. You know, this is how

547
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: I remember it going down. It was the evening in

548
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: early May, as I recall May three, and Maddie was

549
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: on vacation with her parents, Kate and Jerry McCann. She

550
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: has two year old twin siblings, so there's three children

551
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: in all, and they were all with a group of

552
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: family and friends and their children. Okay, so Maddie and

553
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: the twins have been left to sleep at um that

554
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: evening on a ground floor apartment, and the McCanns and

555
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: the other adult friends dined in a restaurant about a

556
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty feet Oh wait, now it's not quite

557
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: a football field. Let's see, a football field is three

558
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: feet right, Okay, so it's about, you know, two thirds

559
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: of a football field. I remember this part, uh, Joseph

560
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, that the parents went and checked on the

561
00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: children throughout the evening, and so you know, every forty

562
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: five minutes, every hour. I don't know those numbers, but

563
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: I know that they checked on them during the evening,

564
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: and the mother is the one that went back and

565
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: discovered she was missing. They left her there at she

566
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: was missing at twenty two an hour and a half later,

567
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: somebody had to have seen or had to have known

568
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: that she was taken. A lot of people claimed Portuguese

569
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: police came to believe that she died in an accident

570
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: and the appearance covered it up. Ah. I think that

571
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: has been completely debunked, Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, And as

572
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: you said earlier, there's no evidence of of of foul

573
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: play relative to a homicide, uh, you know, blood, this

574
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: sort of thing, a disruption in the apartment. I think

575
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: that it's really important that the parents are going back

576
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: and to check only should then because that tightens down

577
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 1: the window the time frame that we looked at when

578
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: we're building this timeline that I mentioned just a second

579
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: ago in the immediate so we could frame it if

580
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: the mother and the father can both stay in the

581
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: affirmative that they went at at a particular time and

582
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: then came back later in a measured amount of time,

583
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: that narrows the field down of who would have had

584
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: opportunity to get access to these children there on vacation, Nancy,

585
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: they're awash with strangers all around them. And I know

586
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: they're there with friends and family and all this, but

587
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: let's keep in mind there awash with people around them

588
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: that are unknown to them. So Lord only knows who's

589
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: kind of orbiting uh this this place where they were

590
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: staying in the last days. The parents have spoken to

591
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: the BBC. I want you to hear what they say.

592
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: There is progress, um, there are some very credible lines

593
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: of inquiry at the police are working on. Whilst there's

594
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: no evidence to give us any negative news. You know

595
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: that hope is still it really is there in your hearts.

596
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: Will be reunited with your daughter? Well, no patent's going

597
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,359
Speaker 1: to get up on the old unless they know for

598
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 1: certain that she was dead and that we just don't

599
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: have any evidence. So I hope of being off. It's

600
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: no less than it was almost ten years ago. And

601
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: now we had to Raleigh, North Carolina for the very

602
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: latest in the so called cough Syrup murder. What we

603
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: have is a Bible college graduate and his young wife

604
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: who works at home and as a Sunday school teacher herself.

605
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: She ends up murdered in the couple's home. I want

606
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: you to hear the nine one one call that night.

607
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: What do you mean by what happened? Dream? And then

608
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: I turned on the lights and she stood on the

609
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: floor hell. Hell, I'm trying of blood all over me,

610
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: and there's a boy knife on the bird, and I

611
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: think I did it. In the last hours, we learned

612
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: that investigators reportedly say they have seized bloody bad sheets,

613
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: a knife set, and an empty box of cold medicine

614
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: from the home of that Bible graduate Matthew Phelps, the

615
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: aspiring North Carolina pastor now suspected in brutally stabbing his

616
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: young bride dead too. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, what

617
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 1: significance is this to you that they find an empty

618
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: box of cold medicine in the home? Well, Nancy, it's

619
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: highly suggestive that he was abusing the cough medicine, that

620
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: he was using it recreationally, and as you and I

621
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: had discussed before, you know, this is voluntary intoxication and

622
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: it's not going to be good for the defense. Along

623
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: with the one call which in which he stated that

624
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: he thinks the medicine can help him feel good and

625
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: help him sleep, and so he wasn't using it as

626
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: the way it was intended to be used medically, and

627
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 1: if he was using it recreationally, it's certainly not helpful

628
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: to their side. Well, according to a search warrant. We

629
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: now have the couple's bed sheets, bedspread, pillow cases were

630
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: all seized from the home. The warrant also states the

631
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: items were stained with an unknown rant substance. Well, I

632
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: can tell them what that is. It's blood. They also

633
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: find an empty box of course, seten cough and cold medicine,

634
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: a knife, block set, several laptops, a desktop computer, and

635
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: Lauren's iPhone. Um. They also took things like mortgage statements

636
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 1: and receipts. Now, I wonder what the significance of those are.

637
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: But dat back to you, Dr Daniel Bober. When you

638
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 1: find and I'm just thinking about this as a trial

639
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: lawyer from that perspective, when you find an empty box

640
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: of cold medicine and you know that the suspect is

641
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: saying I took the cold medicine, I was to my mind,

642
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing. I would want

643
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: to know this one. You got an empty box. Where

644
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: is the bottle of cold medicine? Did he throw that away?

645
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: If he did throw that away, why where is it?

646
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: Or is it tablet form which I doubt was there

647
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: any left? Do we have any idea how much he

648
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: had taken? If there was any left? Also, when did

649
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: he buy it? If he bought it a month before,

650
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: the fact that it's empty now would go towards a defense.

651
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: Is there a receipt? Can we narrow down when where

652
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: it was purchased, maybe even get him on video purchasing it.

653
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: That not and he drinks the whole bottle. I mean,

654
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: there's still a lot to find in order to prove

655
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: that he was voluntarily drinking corre siden yes or no, no,

656
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Not only when did he buy it,

657
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: but is this something that he buys often? How often

658
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: does he buy it and what frequency is he going

659
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: to the store to get it. There there's a lot

660
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: of issues here here regarding the consumption of this cough

661
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: medicine and over what period of time that he actually

662
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: consumes it. But again, if he was using it recreationally,

663
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: that's going to be a real problem. Uh. You know

664
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: when you were talking about the red the red stains

665
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: on the sheets, actually that could also be the cough

666
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: medicine itself, not only blood. So there's still his course,

667
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: Satan read the corsine itself is not red, but depending

668
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: on how the dye that you use in the syrup,

669
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: it could be read. So that's you know something as well, Um,

670
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: he stabbed her and the bad it's blood. More likely

671
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 1: than not it's blood. Obviously back to the facts. Let's see,

672
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: I was thinking about the oh yes, oh yes, corsting

673
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: cough medicine b P as in blood pressure. What is

674
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: that and what if he needs the significance of the BP?

675
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: It would obviously be medicine for people who have high

676
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: blood pressure because there are certain ingredients and cough medicines

677
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: or cold medicines that, for example, one that I won't

678
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: say because I know you're gonna give me a hard

679
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: time about it, that go ahead plays for example, things

680
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: like uh phennel propenolamine and other chemicals with names like

681
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: that that can affect blood pressure. Uh. So it's probably

682
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: a cough medicine design to people who have hypertension, so

683
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: that doesn't affect their blood pressure. Um. Question to you,

684
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober. To be a psychiatrist, you've got to

685
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: be an m d. And then more school for psychiatry.

686
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: You have to go to medical school before you're a psychiatrist. Correct. Okay,

687
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: so what effect? Let me start with the body. What

688
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: effect would a bottle of this stuff dude, Well, what

689
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: would it do to you? Well, this drug is also

690
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: related to drugs like ketamine and PCP. It affects something

691
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: called the glutamate system, and it causes a dissociated of

692
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: effective dissociative or out of body experience where you actually

693
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: become disconnected from your thoughts and from your emotions, so

694
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 1: you're sort of floating in space, so to speak. That's

695
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: the kind of effect that it would happen. That's the

696
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: kind of effect that you mean you float to the

697
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 1: kitchen and get a butchered in your brain, not in reality?

698
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: Uh huh, okay, you know, Joseph Scott Morgan, I mean, really,

699
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: have you listened to the night when one call? Did

700
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: you listen when I was playing at just Scott or

701
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: are you tapping away on your iPad or something? I

702
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: had a dream and my wife is dead. You know.

703
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: The only other people that say that were O. J. Simpson,

704
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: he had a dream, remember that he killed Nicole Brown? Whoopsie,

705
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: it was true. And then Amanda Knocks from you know,

706
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: her trip in Italy says I had a dream and

707
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: I was covering my ears. I heard my roommate screaming

708
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: in the next room. Well, of course, she was finally

709
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: exonerated on appeal. But when people begin having clairvoyant type

710
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: dreams and there happens to be a dead body in

711
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: the same house with them, that gives me very nervous.

712
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, I'm I'm you know, I'm a

713
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: science guy. I'm not interested in dreams. I'm interested in

714
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 1: reality and reality here is that Also in this call,

715
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: he alluded to the fact that there was blood. Uh,

716
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: he alluded to the fact that he apparently had done this,

717
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: that she didn't deserve this. I gotta I gotta commend

718
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: to police here. You know what one of the most

719
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: impressive things about this okay to me is is the

720
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: fact that when you see his intake photo Nancy, he

721
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: has what appears to be dried blood on his face,

722
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: and that gives me an indication that the police did

723
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: not allow him to clean himself up, which is key

724
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: in any kind of case like this, because this demonstrates connectivity.

725
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: They can demonstrate that he has what appears to be

726
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: dried blood on his face, and I think that that

727
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: is profound in this case. Also, we can tie the

728
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: blood back on his face and also relative to the

729
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: sheets if that is blood, which they will do several

730
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: tests in order to determine that. That's gonna be a

731
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: major key. Well, I mean, I'm telling you right now

732
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: it's her blood. Of course, it's her blood. So, uh,

733
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: everything's covered in blood. He's covered in blood. Obviously, it

734
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: was sling back from and he's lifting the knife to

735
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: stab her repeatedly as she's bound to have been fighting

736
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: for her life. I mean, I can tell you that.

737
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: How does that help me prove a murder Well, I

738
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 1: can tell you this. Uh, we can say that it's

739
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: blood all we want to, but from a scientific standpoint,

740
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: I want it proved because I want this to be

741
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: an airtight case and to demonstrate this I know, I know.

742
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: Just take the next step with me, Joe Scott Morrigan,

743
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: don't get me started, alright, I've already got bober On here.

744
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: But tell me, Joe Scott, just go with me on this.

745
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: Let's just pretend, Okay, let's take a tiny baby step

746
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: and rationality. Of course, it's her blood. I can already

747
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: prove our murder case. How does that help me prove

748
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: it even more? Are you saying he should have woken

749
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: up out of his dream? What are you trying to

750
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: say whether or not he would have woken up. But

751
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: I can say that he had some kind of recognition

752
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 1: because he had missed this on the on the nine

753
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: eleven tape that he said that he was apparently involved

754
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: in this. Now this is gonna be more in a

755
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: psychiatrist realm. But I don't know how they're going to

756
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: explain this away. What we can tie back is can

757
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: we put that knife in his hand and demonstrate that

758
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: he is actually facilitating this death. I think that they're

759
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: going to be able to do again. This goes to

760
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: connectivity between him, the knife, and the defects in her body,

761
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: which apparently appeared to be multiple. Ashley, Willcott help me, please?

762
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: You know what, throw me a life right here, I'm

763
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: floating in a sea of spec culation from Joe Scott

764
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: Morgan and Dr Daniel Bober, the forensic psychiatrist. You know,

765
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: the reality is there's two of them in the home.

766
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: She's stabbed dead, he's covered in blood, and he says, wow,

767
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: I was high on core sden I heard it makes

768
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: you feel good. I can't believe I did this. It

769
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: is and I'm missing something here. I don't and I

770
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: mean Ashley when you do a demo, a demonstration in

771
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: front of a jury, and you show the velocity needed

772
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: to stab her repeatedly, over and over and over. Where

773
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: blood's going anywhere? She struggling, She gets out of the bed,

774
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: she tries to get away. That didn't wake him up.

775
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: I really think it is murder. I do. And if

776
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: he had this cold medicine in a system, this is

777
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: a violent, violent act. And I think he did it

778
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: and then felt remorseful and said, oh what can I say? Oh,

779
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: that's right, I did take this cold medicine. I think

780
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: he knew he was doing it. I do think they

781
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,760
Speaker 1: can prove murder in this case. You know what's interesting,

782
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott Um, you're married, you've got children. I think

783
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: you'll know what I'm talking about. So he's got a

784
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: Bible degree, he could be a pastor. He's doing yards.

785
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 1: She's trying to work from home. You know, the most

786
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: dangerous time for a woman in a relationship, as if

787
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: she tries to leave. Who's not to say, now, this

788
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: is speculation that that night she's like, listen, you know what,

789
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: I'm tired of putting your bills. Let's take a little

790
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: break for a minute. And um, let's take a separation.

791
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: You know, that is the most dangerous time for a woman.

792
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: That's when most domestic commicides occur, right am I right about?

793
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: I agree? And I think I don't know that because

794
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 1: in her video that she posted just that night, trying

795
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: to sell candles from her own business, I'm just trying

796
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: to make money anyway, she could she looked I've watched

797
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: it a hundred times. She looks happy in her in

798
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 1: her life. But that that means nothing, Ashley. That doesn't

799
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: mean anything that she looked happy on a video. And

800
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: he could be under a lot of stress because of

801
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: the financial needs of the family. And right, all of

802
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: those things are true, And who knows what could have

803
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: triggered him any conversation she might have had, speculation again,

804
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: like you said about separating, about the finances, about the

805
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: condition of their marriage, about the state of affairs, any

806
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: of those things could have triggered him to react this violently.

807
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: And and they're fairly young. I mean they've been married

808
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: less than a year. Maybe one morning she woke up

809
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: and found out it ain't all that and a bag

810
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: of chips, and she's like, whoa wait a minute, this

811
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: is not what I signed up for another thing to

812
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober Forensics, psychia risk this stuff. I mean,

813
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: here's the deal. You don't need a dope dealer. You

814
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: can just go to Walgreens and get um coreseeden because

815
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: it tastes like candy. Dr Daniel Baber, tastes like It's true, Nancy.

816
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: I mean, people, it just amazed me as a physician,

817
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: as an addictive Wait a minute, you're not gonna argue

818
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: with me that it tastes like candy. You're not gonna

819
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: say something like, well, you know, I can't say myself

820
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: that it tastes like it tastes like candy. Is like

821
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: anything you want, Nancy. You can put anything any flavoring

822
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: you want. But the point is is that it's amazed

823
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: to me that people will find anything to abuse, whether

824
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: it's Benadrill, whether it's core Siton and it's you know

825
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 1: it's or suit of fed. It's right on your shelf.

826
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 1: You don't, like you said, you don't need a dope dealer.

827
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: You don't need to go to go into a back alley.

828
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: You can just go into a Walgreens or a CBS

829
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: that's right there. To Dave mac has he been formally

830
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 1: charged and felts we charged with murder. He's being held

831
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 1: at the White County without bail and facing life in

832
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: prison or even the death penalty. We have our eye

833
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 1: on a rolling North Carolina courtroom waiting for the latest

834
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime stories. Signing off goodbye friend. In need

835
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: of great talent for your business, but short on time

836
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: like all of us, Well, you don't have to get

837
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: lost in a huge stack of resumes to find the

838
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: perfect higher. You just need the right tools, smarter tools.

839
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:36,160
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840
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Speaker 1: post your job to over one hundred of the webs

841
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Speaker 1: leading job boards with one click and rest easy knowing

842
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843
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844
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845
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846
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847
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848
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