1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Listen, you've slandered this man. Yeah. What I sort of 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: want to know is how do we how do we 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: get to this point? I do not think that anyone, 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Mr Chairman, I am done. Thank you, very man. You 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: slandered this man from top to bottom. I want to 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: say this before we welcome our esteemed guest, Maizie Herono 7 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: from Hawaii. Sounds like a dope. Now, it's fairly unlikely 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: she's actually a dope. Is it possible she just has 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: resting dope voice? I mean, like this guy here turns 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: up as a astrophysicist. I mean it's possible. So a 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: majority of Americans don't want impeachment proceedings to happen in Congress. 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: I think people are just getting tired of all this. 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if that hurts Trump or the Democrats 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: or everyone or no one. I don't know. So we 15 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: should talk to somebody smart. Indeed. Lan he j Chen 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: is the host of the podcast Crossing Lines with lani 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: enln He is also a David and Diane Stuffy Research 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: Fellow to Hoover Institution Director Domestic Policy Studies at Stanford University. 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: Lon he how are you, sir? Good morning, gentlemen doing well, 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: how are you awesome? So that there is a big 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: ABC Washington Post poll came out. I guess over the 22 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: weekend um majority people don't want impeachment proceedings to start. 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: The vast majority of people their opinion wasn't changed one 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: way or another over the Muller report. I just I 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: just think I just feel like people are worn out 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: by all of this, and does that help or hurt? 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: Who's that helper hurt? Yeah? I do think that there's 28 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: a certain amount of fatigue that's set in. I mean, 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: I think most Americans look at this and they just say, 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: you know what, stop pickering and get something done, you know. 31 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: I I think that's that's the predominant frame through which 32 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: people see all this. In terms of who it helps 33 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: or hurts. I think it depends on how the cards 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: are played. If the Democrats do proceed to impeachment proceedings, 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: I can't do you think that's a possibility. I haven't 36 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: even considered that actually might happen. You think that could happen? Well, there, 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: you gotta remember there's this conflict in the Democratic Party. 38 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: For all the talk about what's going on in the 39 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: Republican Party, with Trump and people who don't like Trump. 40 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: The bigger divide and the bigger story over the next 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: year is going to be the division within the Democratic Party. 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: And you see this played out between Nancy Pelosi and 43 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: Alexandria Kazio Cortez. I mean, no one is thrown more 44 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: shade at Alexandria Kazio Cortez and Nancy Pelo. Now, now 45 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi has got a problem, which is that she's 46 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: the only same one in the room there. She's the 47 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: one saying, She's the one saying, look, we can't, we 48 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: can't do this impeachment thing. It's not going to make 49 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: a whole lot of sense given what we have on 50 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: the record. Now, the problem is there's so many people 51 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: agitating for this on the progressive left, and it's it's 52 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: not even just raw numbers, guys, it's how loud they are. 53 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: And oftentimes you, I mean you, you fellows know this. 54 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: Whoever yells the loudest in an argument wins. And So 55 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: while I don't think it makes any sense on God's 56 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: green Earth or Democrats to proceed to impeachment proceedings, it 57 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me if they do it either, Just in 58 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: where the energy is in their party. Wow. Interesting, that'd 59 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: be something that'd be what a what a crazy maneuver, 60 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: that would be against the wishes of your House the 61 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: House Speaker. And I'm guessing Chuck Schumer's not into it. 62 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean, when when Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi came 63 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: out of that infrastructure meeting the other day with Trump 64 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: and all talked about how we had a great meeting, 65 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: and this is that that's not a couple of leaders 66 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: who are excited about impeachment, or they wouldn't be talking 67 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: that way. Well, that's right. And the interesting part of 68 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: this is you've got a dynamic here, right, because some 69 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: of these Democrats, particularly marginal Democrats who are elected in 70 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: twenty eight team, let's say from southern California, who represent 71 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: districts that are pretty evenly divided, they'd love to have 72 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: a two trillion dollar infrastructure package to take home at 73 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: some of that to their districts and say, look at 74 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: what I've got, Look what I was able to win. 75 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: The problem is going to be on the other side 76 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: of this if, in fact, you have a situation now 77 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: where you've got people who are running for president, let's say, 78 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: for example, they would benefit from nothing more than having 79 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: a little more conflict, and it doesn't fit the narrative. 80 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: Well if Trump is able to do a deal with 81 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: the Democrats. So in some ways, all the incentives are 82 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: misaligned here and that's why Americans are so sticky tired 83 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: of all this. Yeah. Yeah, it is the age of 84 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: hyperbole everywhere, from social media to the TV, and it's 85 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: just the radio and politics is a hypercharged hyperbole, I think. 86 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that's probably why Joe Biden is 87 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 1: so clearly trying to be Mr com Mr We're fine, 88 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: Mr chuckling warmly. In fact, you know, he said the 89 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: other day that the China is not a competitor us. 90 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: That's fine. They're nice folks, they're good folks. I mean, 91 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: so his uh, his strategies definitely emerged. Would you agree 92 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: that's his thing. Yeah, he's he's sort of I'm going 93 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: to be the voice of reason, and I'm going to 94 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: be the comfortable blanket you you know, you throw on 95 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: when it's corn it's cold on a winter night. The 96 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: problem is, and it gets back again to this beforetime 97 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: about earlier, which is the split within the Democratic Party. 98 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure the Democratic primary electorate, which is 99 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: the electorate he needs to speak to right now, is 100 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: particularly interested in a restoration of things past. I think 101 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: they're interested in a forward looking vision and dramatic, bulk change, 102 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: and that's not Joe Biden. I mean, you listen to 103 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: Joe Biden his policy prescriptions straight out of there's not 104 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: a whole lot he's talking about that's going to be 105 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: anything new. And so that's the challenge that I think 106 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: that that I think he's gonna face, which is what 107 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: he's selling fundamentally, is probably not something that a lot 108 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: of Democratic primary voters want. Now, they may end up deciding, Okay, 109 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: we'll swallow it and we'll take it because we think 110 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: he's the guy best equipped to be Trump. But I'll 111 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 1: tell you he seems a little bit out of step 112 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: with the Democratic Party elector now, not out of step 113 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: with maybe what the general independent public wants, but in 114 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: terms of Democratic primary voters, it doesn't sound like a 115 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: great message to me. I I hate to derail the conversation, 116 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: but I find that to be a really interesting question. 117 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: A statement in the form of question what would be 118 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: the best way for the parties to select president chill candidates? 119 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: Because what you've described, and it's undeniably true, sounds like 120 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: a bad way to do it. We're going to have 121 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: a fired up, small minority of people pick who appeals 122 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: to them, then we'll trot them out to the general population, 123 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: who we already know is looking for something different. Yeah. Well, 124 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, the way that they used to do it 125 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: was the old smoke filled rooms where party elders and 126 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: leaders would get together and figure out who they wanted. 127 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: And that was probably better, wasn't it. I mean, you know, 128 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like it might be. That's that's interesting. 129 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: Everybody's come full circle on that. When I was younger, 130 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: I thought that just sounds terrible. A couple of powerful 131 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: people making all the decisions. But Nancy and Chuck would 132 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: do a better choice than the than the than the 133 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: energized AOC wing is going to do. Yeah, I think 134 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: that's right. And you know the funny thing about this 135 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: is we're always fighting the last fight. Okay, So I 136 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: think about the Democrats. The perfect example of this. What 137 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: they do in is they decide we're going to get 138 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: rid of something called super elegance. Right, just to let 139 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, we've got like forty five seconds. But go ahead, Okay, 140 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: So I'll try to make this quick. They've got these 141 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: super delegates, right, which are basically party elders who helped 142 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: select the nominee they decide. You know, we're going to 143 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: get rid of those, so fast forward. We're in now. 144 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: The party elders in the Democratic Party have far less 145 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: influenced unless there's a contested convention, then they gain influence again. 146 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: But this is what I'm talking about. They're always fighting 147 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: the last fight, and in some ways going back to 148 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: the way things were sometimes might not be a bad 149 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: idea because you might actually end up with a better outcome. Listen, 150 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: let's follow up on that next time we chat. To 151 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: apologize for the abrupt and long he but it's always 152 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: a pleasure. Lon he Chan as the host of the 153 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: podcast Crossing Lines with lon Chan. That's interesting. That sounds 154 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: like they've got a recipe for a less um effective 155 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: candidate than they've ever had. More democracy is not always 156 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: better