1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: From My Heart Media. This is Missing in Alaska, the 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: story of two congressmen who vanished in nineteen two, and 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: my quest to figure out what happened to them. I'm 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: your host, John Wallzac. On a hot September day last year, 5 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: I flew from New Orleans to Phoenix, where I met 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: up with our supervising producer, Paul Deckant. Paul, who flew 7 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: in from Atlanta, got there before me. When I landed. 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: He scooped me up in a rental car. We immediately 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: drove toward our first interview with Jerry Paisley's daughter. To 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: protect her privacy, let's call her Amy. My phone buzzed. 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: It was Amy. Her son had just injured himself. She 12 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: said she was at an urgent care. Could we reschedule you? 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: Of course I was disappointed, but the unexpected free time 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: was nice. Paul and I went to dinner at a 15 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: Mexican place and plotted out the coming days. The next morning, 16 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: we met up with Tom Davis, the Arizona Department of 17 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: Public Safety investigator who helped interview Jerry Paisley in nineteen 18 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: seventy four. While working undercover. Davis had also secretly observed 19 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: Paisley's wedding to Peggy Baggatte. One of the key questions 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: I had for Davis, for everyone really, was whether or 21 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: not Paisley told the truth truth. As a society, who 22 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: do we choose to believe? Who do we instantly right off? 23 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: Should we believe the politician discard the inmate? Why? What 24 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: about Jerry Paisley? Specifically? I asked Tom Davis, would you 25 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: be able to tell if he was lying? What were 26 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: you looking for in terms of markers of deception for 27 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: each and every story? Uh, consistency number one, and Davis 28 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: said Paisley's story remained consistent. More importantly, everything Paisley said 29 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: that could be verified, Davis in fact verified, including specific 30 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: details about unsolved murders. I said, tell me something I 31 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: can check out, and he says, well, you remember a 32 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: supposed suicide in the Sahara. The Sahara was a Tucson motel. 33 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: He says, well, during that period of time my life, 34 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: me and Louis Marconi were running dope. Marconi, Paisley's friend 35 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: was an ex cop. And I said, okay, I said 36 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 1: what kind of dope? And he says cocaine. He said, 37 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: we dabbled in, dabbled in marijuana, but moved over to 38 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: cocaine because there was more money involved. So he goes 39 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: and tells me that they're doing cocaine, and this end 40 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: of edile that they had entrusted the cocaine to or gone. 41 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: He had gone out and picked up the cocaine was 42 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: back at the Saharah tried to rip him off. So 43 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: the opening of the story was that was supposed to 44 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: be a suicide. But he says, if you check with 45 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: TPD in the coroner's office, he was shot twice and 46 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: I said, okay, I said, now here's the flip side 47 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: of that. Did you shoot him? Yes, I shot him 48 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: twice in them out and Louis and I fought with 49 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: him in the room. Um, we got him on the bed, 50 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: I straddled him and shot him twice. Them out. Because 51 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: of this confession, Paisley was convicted again in murder. In court, 52 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: he was cocking and sarcastick. He thanked the jury for 53 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: stopping by and called himself quote an honest liar. Obviously 54 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: Paisley is not the most trustworthy person. Obviously he lied often, 55 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: but he also told the truth at least part of 56 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: the time. In fact, telling the truth is what earned 57 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: him a second murder conviction. So if Paisley lied about 58 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: Peggy Baggette meeting with Joe Banano, if he lied about 59 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: Banano Lieutenant Joe I. Tarola giving him a locked briefcase 60 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: to carry to Alaska, if he lied about Danny z 61 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: Ivenach telling him the briefcase contained high tech explosives and 62 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: that the missing congressman had been assassinated. Why why would 63 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: he lie? What did he have to gain? The most 64 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: obvious answer typically would be that he wanted some kind 65 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: of leniency, time taken off his sentence, something like that. 66 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: But he was already serving a long sentence for murder. 67 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: He had no chance of getting out. And not only 68 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: did he not receive leniency, but because he spoke, he 69 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: was also convicted of a second murder, which earned him 70 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: an even longer sentence. What then about money? Paisley made 71 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: no money from this fame. Paisley made no concerted effort 72 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: to talk to the media. What then about Peggy Beggatt. 73 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: Did Paisley just hate her? Did he want to get 74 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: revenge again? There's no evidence of this. Paisley and Peggy 75 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: were long divorced, and in the interview, Paisley was ambiguous 76 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: about Peggy's role in the alleged plot. He questioned whether 77 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: or not she even understood what she had gotten herself into. 78 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: What about notoriety or some kind of legacy. It's true 79 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: that Paisley wanted to be remembered for his mob ties. 80 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: It was undoubtedly a better look than his prison affiliation 81 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: with the Aran Brotherhood. But what notoriety did he gain? 82 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: So Paisley got no time taken off his sentence, he 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: was convicted of a second murder, He made no money 84 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: from his claims, he got no media, he didn't seem 85 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: to have some boiling atrid to peggy baggage, And he 86 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: gained no notoriety and told this show, And for that, 87 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm truly sorry. I don't cherish the idea of giving 88 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: Paisley what he wanted at all, but I don't really 89 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: care what he wanted. I care about the truth, And 90 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 1: to that end, all three of the investigators who interviewed 91 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: Paisley think there's at least a strong possibility that he 92 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: did tell the truth. Furthermore, Paisley later offered to take 93 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: a polygraph or lie detector test. It is, of course 94 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: possible that Paisley just lied. Maybe there's no reason why, 95 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: maybe he just did. Beyond scrutinizing his possible motivations, I 96 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: wanted to see which parts of his story I could 97 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: definitively prove. It was tough, but during my research I 98 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: found evidence to corroborate much of what Paisley said, the 99 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: parts that could be corroborated. But maybe he was just 100 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: a good liar, mixing in truths and falsehoods. That's certainly possible. However, 101 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: what I improve mob ties the marriage the business dealings 102 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: has left me with an uneasy feeling and a hunger 103 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: to find the truth. Late in the evening on the 104 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: day I interviewed Tom Davis, I sat down in my 105 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,119 Speaker 1: hotel room in Phoenix and kept digging through databases trying 106 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: to track down sources. One of the key players I 107 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: was looking for was Gene Fowler. Fowler and his brother 108 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: Larry were two of the six people Paisley named as 109 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: having played a part in whereas having knowledge of the 110 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: alleged bomb plot. Three of the six were dead. Joe Banano, 111 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: Joeya Tarola, and Larry Fowler to refuse to talk with me. 112 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: Peggy Beggett and Danny z Ivanitch so that left one person, 113 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: Gene Fowler. I had looked for Jean for a long 114 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: time without success. I can't tell you how many dead 115 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: end numbers and emails I tried again and again. Maybe 116 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: this Gene Fowler is the right one, Maybe this number 117 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: will work. Be completed as did the number and dial again. 118 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: So that night I shot off some emails, then fell asleep. 119 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: Around two or three am September two, nineteen, I awoke 120 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: to a surprise email. I found Jean Fowler, but it 121 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: wasn't Jeane who emailed me back. It was his son, Steve. 122 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: Steve was cautious, but he agreed to meet with us 123 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: later that day at his house near Tucson. Excited, I 124 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: texted Paul, our producer, and we agreed to meet downstairs 125 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: for breakfast around eight am. We had a busy day planned. 126 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: We were supposed to interview Amy, Paisley's daughter, and damn it, 127 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: Amy canceled on us again. She apologized, saying her family 128 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: wasn't comfortable with her doing the interview. I was disappointed, 129 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: but I told her that I understood and that if 130 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: she changed her mind to call me. I walked to 131 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: the hotel breakfast area spotted Paul and said hello, thinking 132 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: of Gene Fowler and are just canceled interview with Amy. 133 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: I told him I had some important news. I got 134 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: an omelet set it down on our table. But before 135 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: I could sit down, my phone buzzed again and again 136 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: and again. Today is September two thousand nineteen. Uh, Paul, 137 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: one of our producers, and I are at a hotel 138 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: in Phoenix, and we just went in to have breakfast. Uh. 139 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: But wow, it's but a crazy A few hours Um, 140 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: it was literally texting with Jerry Paisley's daughter, who I 141 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: was supposed to interview on Sunday, and she backed out, 142 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: um because she said her son was hurt. And then 143 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: I was supposed to interview today at ten am. It's 144 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: almost eight in Arizona where we are, and I was 145 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: literally texting with her and setting food down on a 146 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: table um when I got a text from Bob Martinson. 147 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: Bob Martinson, remember that name. He's going to be very 148 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: important to this story later on. You also told me 149 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: something I hadn't heard, which is very kind of overwhelming 150 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: and upsetting to hear at this very moment, which is 151 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: that Cokie Roberts just died. Um. Also last night, U 152 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: I U finally figured out where uh Gene Fowler lives. 153 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 1: Fowler is the man who Jerry Paisley alleged. Um it 154 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: was at the airport in nine two when Paisley says 155 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: he carried a package for the bananas to Alaska. So 156 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: I have all this swirling. I just walked out on Paul. 157 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: He's sitting there eating and my my foods getting cold. Um. 158 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: Really a kind of upset to hear that about COKEI 159 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Uh family seems to be very nice family, and you 160 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: know they they lost Tommy a few years ago and 161 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: Lindy too so and and to to hear that in 162 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: the middle of all this, I mean, while I'm texting 163 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: with very multiple people related to this story, is it's 164 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 1: just weird. So I just sitting in a chair outside 165 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: in a courtyard in a hotel and Phoenix. But um, 166 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: I haven't had time to look too much to see 167 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: what happened. But I believe Coke he died from breast cancer, 168 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: which I didn't know she had. And I mean, I 169 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: would like to express my adults start her family. Okay, 170 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: it was overwhelming all at once. Cokey Bob, Paisley's daughter 171 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: Geane Fowler. I sat outside for a while and just 172 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: stared at the sky. Cokey was the last surviving child 173 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: of Hale and Lindy Boggs. I had spoken briefly to 174 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: her brother, Tommy. He agreed to do an interview, but 175 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: several days later, before we could speak, he died of 176 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: a heart attack. Coke and Tommy's sister, Barbara, the former 177 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: mayor of Princeton, New Jersey, was also dead. She died 178 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: of cancer, and now cancer had taken Coketo. Coke's death 179 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: hit me hard. Only ten days earlier, the day before 180 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: my birthday, my mom had gotten confirmation that she too 181 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: had breast cancer, stage four inflammatory breast cancer, a rare 182 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: and aggressive cancer. On top of lupus, which he's battled 183 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: for thirty years. It seemed like a death sentence. Days 184 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: before I flew to Arizona, I had flown home to 185 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: North Carolina to see her. My mom's diagnosis weighed on 186 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: me heavily. As we produced this show. I mostly kept 187 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: it quiet, but there were times I wanted to share 188 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: it with certain people, like the Baggage kids, so they 189 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: could see that truly, at this moment, I could, in 190 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: some way at least empathize with their loss, that I 191 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: was human too, and not just some parasitic reporter. As 192 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: of this recording, my mom has undergone chemo surgery and 193 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: physical therapy up next radiation. Also, as of this recording, 194 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: we as a world are in the middle of a 195 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: devastating pandemic COVID nineteen or the novel coronavirus. I always 196 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: planned to discuss loss or looming loss, or the possibility 197 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: of looming loss, but I never imagined it would be 198 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: under these circumstances. What I want to say most is 199 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: that I've felt loss or the threat of it, nearly 200 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: the entire time we've produced this show. It's been difficult 201 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: to work, hard to focus, but given the circumstances, given 202 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: our current global situation, I want to say this, We're 203 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: all going through collective trauma right now. It hurts. Some 204 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: of us have lost loved ones, some of us are 205 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: terrified of losing loved ones. I just want you to 206 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: know that I feel what you feel that fear, but 207 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: we're in this together. And for anyone out there who's scared, 208 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: who's afraid, who's depressed, who's anxious, I get it. This 209 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: is horrible, but we will get through it. Be there 210 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: for each other, love each other. We'll get through this. 211 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: In Arizona, Paul and I still had a very long 212 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: list of people to find, doors the knock on and 213 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: places to visit. We were about to drive to Tucson, 214 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: but before we left Phoenix, we made one final stop. 215 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: I'm standing in the parking lot of the Clarendon Hotel. 216 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: It's a hotel in Phoenix, Arizona, And on this very 217 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: spot on June two, x Don Bowles, who was an 218 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: investigative reporter who looked into the mafia and uh corruption 219 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: around the state of Arizona, was killed by a car bomb. 220 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: He said a few things before he died, John Adamson, 221 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: emprize and mafia, And with those clues, investigators found a 222 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: man named John Harvey Adamson, who was convicted of putting 223 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: a remote control bomb under bowls car. It's abnormal for 224 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: a journalist to be killed in the United States. It's 225 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: extremely abnormal for a journalist to be killed by a 226 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: car bomb. Um but car bombings happened. They happened in Arizona, 227 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: they happened in Alaska in the and I mean I've 228 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: read about this killing for a long time. And as 229 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: weird to stand here because it's just an average parking 230 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: lot in Phoenix, and a man was blown up here 231 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: in the seventies. In old news footage of the Bulls bombing, 232 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: you can see the exact spot where I stood, The 233 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: exact spot in the parking lot of the Clarendon Hotel 234 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: where Bowls was blown up. The pavement is soaked in blood. 235 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: The assassination of Bowls in ninety six enraged his colleagues. 236 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: Journalists from around the nation descended on Arizona to continue 237 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: his work, to show that if you take out one 238 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: of us, good luck, we'll dig deeper. These journalists launched 239 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: the far reaching investigation into crime and corruption that became 240 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: known as the Arizona Project. Good Evening, a group of newspaper, 241 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: radio and television reporters charged today that the state of 242 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: Arizona is now the major card or for narcotics into 243 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: the United States, that the state has been invaded by 244 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: organized crime, and that some of Arizona's major political figures, 245 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: including Senator Barry Goldwater, have condoned organized crimes invasion of 246 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: the state. The reporters took on their Arizona investigation to 247 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: finish a job started by Don Bowles, a reporter for 248 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: the Arizona Republic who was murdered nine months ago. The 249 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 1: investigative work was painstaking. For six months, the team probe 250 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: through public records, doing the slow, tedious, methodical work of 251 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: the investigative journalist. What they found in records of land 252 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: transactions and corporation documents and court documents would not have 253 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: attracted the attention of most people. What they found were 254 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: records of loans and canceled checks and request to politicians 255 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: for help on certain projects. The reporters conducted hundreds of 256 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: interviews and recorded many of them. They exchanged information with 257 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies. They traced the geniale g. Of the 258 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: mob families and located some of them in Arizona. At 259 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: this point, as the reporter speaks, the camera pans over 260 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: several books, including Honor Thy Father, the best seller on 261 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: the Banano Family, the same book that tied Jerry Paisley 262 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: to the Bananas. As the Arizona Project reporters dug deeper, 263 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: they found pervasive rot They say in their reports that 264 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: Arizona is now the major corrator for narcotics, that the 265 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: state has been invaded by organized crime, that major political 266 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: figures of the state have made an easy and profitable 267 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: accommodation with the underworld. The major bank in Arizona, a 268 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: large restaurant chain, the nation's foremost land swindler, corrupt law 269 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: enforcement officials all find places in their stories. If you're 270 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: curious at this point as to why I'm discussing Don 271 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: Bowles and the Arizona Project at all, how they tied 272 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: directly into the story of the missing congressman, let me explain. First, 273 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: both Bowls and reporters for the Arizona Project dug into 274 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: the two mob families. Jerry Paisley worked for the Bananas 275 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: and the Lick of Olie's, who were not just in 276 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: Arizona for some son. Both families were active and wielded 277 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: powerful influence in the state. Second, Bowls was killed by 278 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: a remote control bomb in Arizona less than four years 279 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: after the missing congressman disappeared. Less than four years after, 280 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: Jerry Paisley said he transported a bomb from Arizona to 281 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: Alaska that was allegedly used to assassinate the missing congressman. Finally, 282 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: I want to emphasize that it was a different time. 283 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: Back then, bombings were much more commonplace in the six 284 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: seas and seventies, and they weren't just concentrated in big cities. 285 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: They were scattered around the nation. In fact, only four 286 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: months after Bowls was killed by a car bomb in Phoenix, 287 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: a woman named Muriel File was killed by a car 288 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: bomb in Anchorage. So here in night Seen in the 289 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: span of four months are two examples of bombings that 290 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: killed people, one in Arizona and one in Alaska. Neither 291 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: were directly tied to Paisley. But all this to say 292 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: the idea of a small plane being bombed in Alaska 293 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: four years earlier is not as outlandish as it seems. 294 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: After we left Phoenix, Paul and I drove to Tucson. 295 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: I was quiet for most of the ride, staring out 296 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: the window, eyeing the desert. I texted Steve Fowler a 297 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: few times. He sent me his address and a code 298 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: to get into his gated neighborhood. Remember, Steve is a 299 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: son of Gene Fowler, one of six people Jerry Paisley 300 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: named as having taken part in or having knowledge of 301 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: the alleged bombing of the missing congressman's plane. So Paul 302 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: and I didn't really know what to expect. We figured 303 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: Steve would be piste here. We were digging into his dad. 304 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: When we pulled up to Steve's house, we just sat 305 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: there for a minute. There was no car in the driveway, 306 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: no movement. Then slowly the front door swung open, but 307 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: we couldn't see anyone, just an open door leading into 308 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: a darkened house. I got out of the car, Paul 309 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: grabbed the recording equipment. We eyed each other like this 310 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: is creepy. And then there was Steve. He smiled and 311 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: welcomed us in. We sat at his kitchen table. He 312 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: offered us water. He was friendly, which surprised me and 313 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: made me suspicious. When name is Stephen Fowler. I am 314 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: a native to s who spent about how of his 315 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: life in Anchorage, Alaska, and from a very large family, 316 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: and most of them are now gone. My father came 317 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: from a family of three girls and eight sons, and 318 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: my father is the only one that remains alive. At 319 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: this point, I knew that Gene Fowler, Steve's dad, was alive, 320 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: but I didn't know where he was. Half of me 321 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: thought maybe that he was standing in a room down 322 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: the hall, pushed up against the door, listening to our conversation, 323 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: Steve said that when he was a kid, his family 324 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: split their time between Arizona and Alaska. Jean his dad 325 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: worked construction and mining jobs and found other ways to 326 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: cash in on the Alaska oil boom too. There was 327 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity to make a lot of money 328 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: in a lot of different ways, and members of my 329 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: family one of the things they did was they got 330 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: into after hours gambling. They would open a place with 331 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: a couple of black check tables at a poker table, 332 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: and they didn't sell alcohol or anything like that. But 333 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: when people had their paycheck, they cash it and now 334 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: they wanted to have fun with it. So it was 335 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: it was a big, a big period where nightlife was 336 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: was huge. It was tough time for law enforcement. There 337 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: was a lot going on. There was a lot of crime. 338 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: Cocaine was everywhere um and it all stems back to 339 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: the fact that there was a lot of money. The 340 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: free flow of money brought in the cremble element, the drugs, 341 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: the prostitution, the illegal gambling, and there was always somebody 342 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: there to take advantage of the guy that just cast 343 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: his paycheck. And probably from the time I was fifteen on, 344 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: I started learning very quickly that there are two sides 345 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: to Anchorage and the one side I never really saw, 346 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: but as a teenager I learned there was a very 347 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: seemi side to Anchorage. There were lots of bars that 348 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 1: had a lot of crime involved with with those bars. 349 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: There were shootings, there were there was prostitution, there were 350 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: people were being beat I remember stories about the bars 351 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: being firebombed, switching gears. I asked Steve what he knew 352 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: about this story, what he remembered of the planes disappearance, 353 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: which names he recognized, etcetera. So I'm gonna throw names 354 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: at you, and you tell me what you know of 355 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: these people. Jerry Paisley, Jerry Paisley, Jerry Paisley was a 356 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: bar operator that, as I understand it, had ties to 357 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: organized crime UM. Jerry Paisley, I believe he went to 358 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: prison in Florence, Arizona, UH for more than a life 359 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: term for killing someone in Tucson. I also believe I 360 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: heard many years ago that while he was in prison 361 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: he started confessing to taking six, seven or eight lives 362 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: up in Alaska, and I think some of them were 363 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: allegedly through bombings UM. Back when he was in Alaska, 364 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: when Steve said this, it blew me away. Before our interview, 365 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: I had, of course been honest with him about who 366 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: I was and in general terms, what I was investigating. 367 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: But with every source who might have important primary information, 368 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm also extremely careful not to taint their memory, so 369 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: I hadn't gone into too much detail. I had not, 370 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: for example, discussed the specifics of Paisley's claims or even 371 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: told Steve Paisley's name ahead of our interview. So it 372 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: really surprised me that not only was Steve familiar with Paisley, 373 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: but he also knew to some degree what Paisley said 374 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: in I asked him where he heard it the details 375 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: of Paisley's claims. Steve said he probably picked it up 376 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: from the Anchorage Daily News, but he definitely didn't. The 377 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: Daily News never published Paisley's allegations, trust me. So. Jerry Paisley, 378 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: originally from Detroit, lives in Tucson, was also in Alaska. 379 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: Did your father and your uncle Larry, did they know 380 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: Paisley in Tucson or just an Anchorage. I believe they 381 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: knew him in Tucson. My uncle had a closer relationship 382 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: with him. And and and when I say that I 383 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: don't mean to say that they were close. They knew 384 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: each other better than my father and Paisley and in Alaska, 385 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: probably because my brother, my uncle was a bar fly. 386 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: Dad's brother. Uh he Larry probably knew Jerry a lot 387 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: better than my father. Larry Fowler, Steve's uncle, was again 388 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: the man Jerry Paisley said he Geane Fowler and Danny's 389 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: Ivanitch met up with on the day Paisley allegedly transported 390 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: a bomb to Alaska. Larry is the guy who was 391 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: shot to death in Anchorage only twenty seven days after 392 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: Paisley did a follow up interview with an investigator. Steve 393 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: was close to Larry. You know, Larry was was one 394 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: of the biggest hearted guys I've ever met. Uh. He 395 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: was a very nice man. He wasn't well educated, but 396 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: he read a lot when he got older, and so 397 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: he was a good guy. Um. I think he was 398 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: like that junkyard dog that didn't have any teeth. He 399 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: liked to be tough and gruff and tell people I 400 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: know Jerry Paisley, and I know this guy, and I 401 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: know that you know that guy. Um. And he acted 402 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: like he was tough. He he walked with a gruff demeanor. 403 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: So let me, uh kind of underscore one word that 404 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: I always associated with him. He acted tough, but he 405 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: was a coward. The circumstances surrounding Larry's death, do you 406 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: find them suspicious? At this point? I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Um, 407 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: I don't even know if I would say suspicious, But 408 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: there were a lot of unanswered questions. I asked Steve 409 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: to tell me more about his dad. He told me 410 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: that one of the defining moments of his dad's life 411 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: occurred in nineteen seventy. My father in nineteen seventy, in June, 412 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: was in a ditch in uh In, Alaska, very deep 413 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: ditch with clay walls and water in the bottom, and 414 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: the ditch caved in and broke twenty six bones and 415 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: and my father's back laura, ribs, pelvis, legs, feet, and uh. 416 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: He wasn't supposed to make it through the night. He 417 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: was in traction in the hospital, and thirty days later 418 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: he walked out and I asked him once. I said, 419 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 1: why did you have so much determination? He said, because 420 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: my family had forty dollars to our name. When I 421 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: went in the hospital. We were living in a rental, 422 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: and it's something that had happened to me, I would 423 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: have left nothing for my family. Jean Fowler was all 424 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: about family. Steve said, are you close her dad? Yes? 425 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: And you were closer Uncle Larry too. Uh. Cut from 426 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: totally different cloth than them. I have a different u uh, 427 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: different ethical standard. I have different kind of character than them. 428 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: I love them dearly. Um, they're good guys, but we're different. 429 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: And I had tried to interview your dad, Are you 430 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: comfortable sharing why that's not possible? Three years ago Dad 431 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: had a major stroke. He's had a number of minor 432 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: strokes since, and then about a year year and a 433 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: half ago, he had a major heart attack. He's very 434 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: hard to understand. In fact, just as you were pulling 435 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: up to meet with me today, Dad had been trying 436 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: to tell me something over and over and I didn't 437 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: understand it. So I had him write it down on 438 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: a piece of paper and have my mother called me 439 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: and read to me what he wrote. And even he 440 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: even has trouble with that. So, um, that's why he's 441 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: not part of this this podcast. Do they live nearby here? Uh? 442 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: They live seven miles away. So there we go. Of 443 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: the six people Jerry Paisley named three were dead, two 444 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't speak with me, and the last one was alive 445 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: but unable to communicate. I circled back to Paisley's allegation, 446 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: about which Steve seemed to know a little, but not 447 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: a lot. But that little, the fact that Steve somehow 448 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: knew about them at all still intrigued me. You mentioned, 449 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: uh that Paisley was speaking with law enforcement and or 450 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: investigative reporters, or to my knowledge, that was never in 451 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: the papers. Do you remember who told you that? No? 452 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: I don't. Uh. You know, there were kind of a 453 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: network of scuttle butt that always somehow ended up getting 454 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: to my uncle and others. And I think before my 455 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: uncle passed away, he had told me that he had 456 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: heard that Jerry was talking to some officials or somebody 457 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: about um, some missing bodies in Alaska, some unsolved crimes, 458 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: and my uncle had been into soon just days before 459 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: his death. I don't know if that played a role 460 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: in and how he got that scuttle but but uh, 461 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: that's why I think I heard about her. Are you 462 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: aware that Jerry mentioned your uncle and your father to 463 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: law enforcement. I don't know that. So Jerry had a 464 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: very fascinating tale number one, and there were many unsolved killings, 465 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: and he copped to at least five, I think six killings. 466 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: One of the other things that Jerry said was that 467 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: in nine seventy two, in the summer of seventy two, 468 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: that he was asked by an associate of the Banano 469 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: family to transport a package a briefcase to Alaska, and 470 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: that he did, and that when he got to Alaska, 471 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: there was a man named Danny, and your father met 472 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: him at the airport. My father did, yes, Oh wow, 473 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: did you did you not know that? No? No, that's 474 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: just the only thing I know about anything to do 475 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: with with with with what I think you're talking about 476 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: is Jerry was telling people there's a real big deal 477 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: about to go down, and that was right about the 478 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: time that the that the Biggage plane went down. But 479 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: uh no, this you're blown me away with this. I 480 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: went on to read Steve documents detailing Paisley's allegations that 481 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: Gene Fowler and Danny's Evidence picked up Paisley at the 482 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: Anchorage Airport in nineteen seventy two, when Paisley allegedly transported 483 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: a bomb from Arizona to Alaska, and that the three 484 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: men later met up with Larry Fowler. Wow. Um, I 485 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: can respond to what you read by saying a couple 486 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: of things. I know my father and I can't say 487 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: he didn't take Jerry Paisley to uh An airport or 488 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: picked Jerry Paisley put An airport. My father would never 489 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: ever knowingly do anything would bring harm to anyone. That's 490 00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: that's just my father. UM. Neither with my uncle. Um, 491 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,479 Speaker 1: local was just a coward. If they if they had 492 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: had knowledge of it, do you think that they would 493 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: have said something to someone now that I'm not sure of. UM. 494 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: I know Dad was afraid of how bad people hurt 495 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: good people. And Dad has never never thought it was wise, 496 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: um to run to the police and tell police things, 497 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: because it could jeopardize your own safety. Um. The allegation 498 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: here is that your father and your uncle Larry, not 499 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: that they were directly involved in any kind of bombing. 500 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: The allegation is it was a different man, but that 501 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: your father just picked him up at the airport, and 502 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: that Paisley met with your father and your uncle on 503 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: that trip. Well, if if, um, if I were to 504 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: hear that again, of course my mind was racing as 505 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: you were reading is to me and in so many ways, 506 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: it's unfathomable that my my father could ever be involved 507 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: in anything. Steve said that, like me, he was frustrated. 508 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: Now he had a million questions for his dad, and 509 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: his dad couldn't answer them. Why I was so interested 510 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: to talk with your father is because there's so few 511 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: people who actually and I know that I can't, but 512 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: there are so few people related to this number one 513 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: who were still alive number two who could theoretically provide 514 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: any insight about the possibility of the plane being bombed. 515 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: It's would would anybody believe anything Jerry Paisley said if 516 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: it were not for the fact that he married the 517 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: widow of the missing congressman and then later made these claims. 518 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: Does not mean he was telling the truth, But it's 519 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: like it becomes it's much harder than if he was 520 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 1: just an average guy on the street who you wouldn't 521 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: listen to him for two seconds. Again, it does not 522 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: mean everything he said was true, and but this was 523 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: this was enough that Dateline seriously investigated it. This p 524 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: I was an army intelligence guy before he was a 525 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,240 Speaker 1: p I. Uh, there were very seasoned investigators who were 526 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: significantly suspicious. Everybody that I've talked to who is reputable, 527 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: who most of them quote called bullshit for a living, 528 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: they have not and won't call bullshit. And it's not 529 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: because they have any affiliate affinity for Paisley. It's because, 530 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: like you said, if you hear this, this crazy tale 531 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 1: from Jerry Paisley, and you know, I can find business 532 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: records that show this or certain things can be corroborated. Well, 533 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: maybe he was telling the truth, maybe he was lying, 534 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: maybe he told partial truths. It's it's so hard to 535 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: get to the truth here, It's almost impossible at this point. 536 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: So that's why I was so excited to speak to 537 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 1: your dad, not because I think your dad had any 538 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: deep involvement in this, but because Paisley named your father 539 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: and your uncle as people who might have had knowledge 540 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: of this, and there's so few of those people left. 541 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: But hearing me say that Jerry Paisley claimed that your 542 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: father picked him up at the airport in Anchorage when 543 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: Paisley brought a package two Anchorage from Tucson on behalf 544 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: of the bananas. Do you think that's possible. I was 545 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: as possible dead picked him up at an airport. I 546 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: think it's is It's no different than if random cab 547 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: driver picked someone up at the airport that had just 548 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: cut his wife's head off. Um, in a different state. 549 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean the guy knew anything about it or 550 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: had any association with it. And I think my father 551 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: is guilty by association in that in that narrative there, 552 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean for a moment that I think 553 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 1: that Dad had any knowledge of anything about anything like that, 554 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: because that's not my father. Um wow, I mean it 555 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: just blows me away. What convinces you that there's no 556 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: chance that he had any knowledge. That doesn't believe in 557 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: hurting people. He doesn't like it when people hurt each other. Um, 558 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: he's just he had horrors people getting hurt. Um, he 559 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: values life. He's um, He's just he's not. He's not 560 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: that person. M that that suggests that he is. And 561 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: that's all I does is suggest doesn't say he had 562 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: any knowledge of it. I mean I could believe all 563 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: of that stuff and that even Dad took him to 564 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: the to the airport unknowingly picking a guy up that 565 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: might have had a bomb but not knowing. But my 566 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,799 Speaker 1: father would never knowingly pick somebody up that had a 567 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: momb I can tell you that it did. Jerry Paisley, 568 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: to your knowledge, have any problems or any beef with 569 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: your dad and Larry to the point that it would 570 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: prompt him to say something, not that I'm aware of, 571 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: but you know, as you were reading that a while ago, 572 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: the thought did cross my mind. I mean, why would 573 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: a man say something like that. What's interesting to me 574 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: about Paisley's claimed beyond the fact that certain parts of 575 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: it are provable, again, does not mean all of it's 576 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,439 Speaker 1: approvable or true. Paisley very well could have been lying 577 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: about all of it or part of it, and that's 578 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: something that I want to be very clear about. I'm 579 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: not here to do some bullshit conspiracy thing. I want 580 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,280 Speaker 1: to find the truth. It's really hard, but what Paisley 581 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: said is just I mean, you understand why putting your 582 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: father aside, just focusing on Jerry Paisley, you understand why 583 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: it just seems suspicious, even too politic or winning reporter 584 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: to a dateline producer, to law enforcement that this mob 585 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: guy low level, medium level whatever, but had proven affiliation 586 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: with the bananas and look of always would marry the 587 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: widow of a missing congressman less than seventeen months later. 588 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: You can't. It's crazy, um, But a lot of that happened. 589 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: We know a lot of that happened. The marriages happened, 590 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: that Blane went down. We just don't know a lot 591 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: of the wise and what really happened. Well, I think 592 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: I think it. You know, we go from what was 593 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: the most logical explanation. The most logical explanation is the 594 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: plane went down a bad weather, and I think, however, 595 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: people just took that for granted and maybe when there 596 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: should have been more follow up on other ends, there wasn't. 597 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: I think people were just kind of happy to close 598 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: the book on this. What I said to Steve is 599 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: what I believe. I'm not looking to force a story here. 600 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: I just want to find the truth. But other than 601 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: Christal the Dateline producer, but he really looked into Paisley's claims, 602 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: and that lack of follow up is what pisces me off. 603 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: Do you know if your father or uncle were ever 604 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: contacted by any members of law enforcement or the FBI 605 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: to discuss Jerry Paisley's claims? No? No, The only the 606 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: only knowledge that I have about Dad being contacted by 607 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: law enforcement was right after the first hijacking. What was 608 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: the guy's name, dB Cooper, Wait Wyatt. So dB Cooper 609 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: supposedly hijacked the plane. I think that flew out of 610 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: Portland or Seattle or somewhere. Dad had a friend in 611 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: Alaska that loved to jump out of airplanes. This guy 612 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: jumped out of airplanes all the time, and he would 613 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: do it drunk, he would do it sober. He said, 614 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: I don't care if I had the worst parachute. I'm comfortable. 615 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: In fact, if you take the parachute off, I think 616 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: I could hit the ground and still survive if I 617 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,240 Speaker 1: planned it right. And Dad thought he was nuts. And 618 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: shortly after that hijacking, the the FBI came to Alaska 619 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: and they said, you know, we understand you have association 620 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: with one of these guys that are on our suspect list. 621 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: And that's the only time that um I know of 622 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: that Dad ever was involved in any kind of investigation 623 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 1: like that. It was just that he knew a guy 624 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: that jumped out of airplanes. And I'm assuming that guy 625 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: was not dB Cooper. Dad's to this day thinks it 626 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: was dB Cooper. Yeah, he never saw the guy again 627 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: or anything. He didn't think he was capable of something 628 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: like that. But the guy disappeared after after the hijacking, 629 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: and and nothing's ever come of it. What was this 630 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: guy's name? H boy? You know Dad told me his 631 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: first name when he would tell the stories when I 632 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: was young, but I don't remember. That was back in 633 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: the sixties. I know, I know. A wild turn. Just 634 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: when you thought the show had it all, here comes 635 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: dB Cooper. Anyway, back to Paisley. Okay, So I interviewed 636 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: the three men who the three investigators who talked to 637 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: Jerry Paisle. It was Mike Grimes, Tom Davis who was 638 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: in Arizona investigator, and Dave Tullis, who was an Alaska 639 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: state trooper. And I was amazed they all agreed to 640 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: speak on the record. It's it's not common. The thing 641 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: that these guys said was they were very disappointed in 642 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 1: the lack of a follow up by the FBI, that 643 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: if Paisley's claims were true, that was a very serious allegation. 644 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: They turned it over to the FBI. The FBI did 645 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: investigate them, but it seems that it was a lackluster 646 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: investigation to say the least. Um it just seems like, 647 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: the going thing here is Jerry Paisley is a criminal. 648 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: There's no reason to believe him, and I understand why 649 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: people would say that, but it also just seems like 650 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: a kind of convenient, lazy excuse to not follow up 651 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: on information. I have no sympathy for Jerry Paisley in 652 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: that sense. I mean, I don't know what he went 653 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: through to make him the way that he was, but 654 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: he killed people, He hurt people, he used people, and 655 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, the idea that these claims could be part 656 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: of that legacy of hurting people is painful to the 657 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: people obviously. I mean it bothers me. His was a 658 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: life of crime, and in a life of crime, everything 659 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,759 Speaker 1: you do involves deceit, and so I'm sure he was 660 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: a very accomplished lie. Was he lying about this? I 661 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 1: don't know. I've done a lot of embezzlement work and 662 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: chased down embezzlers, and you take everything in and you 663 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: chase it every thread to its logical conclusion. And so 664 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: when people get lazy and they close the books on 665 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: allegations made by a guy like Baisley, I think I 666 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: think that's a disservice to everybody involved. And when I say, 667 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 1: everybody involved. On the day that plane went down, however, 668 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: it went down into the side of a mountain, blew up, 669 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,839 Speaker 1: went into the water. I step, who knows when that 670 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: plane went down, It was like throwing a stone in 671 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: the middle of a calm lake. Those ripples are still 672 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: going out and impacting people, and so it's it's it's 673 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: important to the integrity of the of the investigation and 674 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: to the lives that are impacted by those ripples that 675 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: have continued to expand over almost fifty years. Now, it's 676 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: only fair you follow every lead to its logical conclusion. 677 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: You don't close the book just because it's inconvenient or 678 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: you've got three more cases on your desk. But unfortunately 679 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: that's what happened. Does it bother you that I'm still 680 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: digging into this fifty years later, No, because, like I 681 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: said earlier in the interview, Uh, I don't believe there's 682 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: necessarily anything here worthy of a conspiracy theory, but there 683 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: are unanswered questions, and I think wherever they are unanswered questions, uh, 684 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: it makes sense to pursue it. So I actually commend 685 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 1: you for trying to get to the bottom of this, 686 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: and at the same time I recognize, and it's hard 687 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: for as as hard as you're trying to to mitigate 688 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: the pain it might bring to people. Um, people like 689 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: myself hearing about my father's name at the airport, or 690 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: if you sit down with Mark, Mark Baggage, Nack Baggage, 691 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: Tom Baggage, you sit down with them, it's going to 692 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 1: bring up pain to them. It's going to bring pain 693 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: to them at some level. UM. Put At the same time, UM, 694 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 1: no pain, no gain. And in order to get to 695 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: the answers, you've got to do what you're doing, because 696 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 1: law enforcement isn't doing it anymore. The fact that this 697 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 1: didn't go public with what Jerry claimed to have have said, 698 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like it triggered an FBI investigation or anything. 699 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 1: If it did trigger one, but it was brief. Yeah, 700 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: that tells me that you're doing in the right thing. 701 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: I recommend you, so I'm not angry at you at all. 702 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,320 Speaker 1: I legitimately though, I hate confrontation. I don't like showing 703 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,359 Speaker 1: up at people's houses. You know, why am I doing this? 704 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a fascinating story. They're unanswered questions. There 705 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: are a lot of questions nobody ever asked and I'm 706 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: not really the type of person to just give up, 707 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: but this is it for me. So whatever I learned here, 708 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: it's somebody else can take up the mantle, or more 709 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: likely we're just never gonna know the full truth. They're 710 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: just again, you know a few odd things here or there, 711 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: but there are just so many things, and there are 712 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: a lot of powerful people in media and politics in 713 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 1: Alaska that are aware of some or all of this 714 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: that never said anything. So is your hope that this 715 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,239 Speaker 1: effort on your part, whether you take it much further 716 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: or not, will genuinely will generate sufficient interest by one 717 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: or more people to pick up the batone the torch 718 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: and run with it. I would hope. So, yes, what 719 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: I would really like to see, and I think what 720 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: would have been fair to your dad is if people 721 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: are innocent, then do a proper damn investigation and clear them, 722 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: Because if what Jerry Paisley said is not true, then 723 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,759 Speaker 1: there's a lost opportunity that a better investigation wasn't undertaken 724 00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,760 Speaker 1: in the mid nineties five years ago to clear people's 725 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: names or to prove people guilty. So this is how 726 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: September sev ended. At the end of this very long day, 727 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: forty seven years after the congressman's plane vanished, and twenty 728 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 1: five years after Jerry Paisley said it may have been bombed, 729 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,720 Speaker 1: I've found myself only seven miles away from Jean Fowler, 730 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,840 Speaker 1: one of the key players in Paisley's story, one of 731 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: two men Paisley said picked him up at the Anchorage 732 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: airport when he allegedly transported a bomb from Arizona to Alaska. 733 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: It's stung to be so close to possible answers, and 734 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 1: to know that if I had shown up three years earlier, 735 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: I could have interviewed Jean. Now that was impossible. Stricken 736 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,760 Speaker 1: by strokes and a heart attack, Jean couldn't speak reporting 737 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: this story. During the past nine years, as people have fallen, 738 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: ill and died, I've watched evidence evaporate, knowledge disappear, but 739 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: not all is lost. There are still answers to be had. 740 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,839 Speaker 1: Other people have important information. Many of these people are 741 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: in two old photos, one color, one black and white. 742 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: These are the photos of Paisley and Peggy Baggett's wedding, 743 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: the originals that investigator Tom Davis gave me straight out 744 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,239 Speaker 1: of his Organized crime Bible. These are the red dot photos. 745 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: Next time on missing in Alaska. How long after you 746 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:33,320 Speaker 1: arrived in prison did you meet Jerry Paisley. I met 747 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: him in late two thousand and four. I think this 748 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:50,280 Speaker 1: week one task, using primary sources like newspaper archives, research 749 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,879 Speaker 1: what mob boss Joe Banana was up to between July 750 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: nineteen two and November ninety two. I've already done this, 751 00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,799 Speaker 1: but it would be nice to have your help see 752 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: if I missed anything, see what you find, and if 753 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: anything jumps out, feel free to contact us. You can 754 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 1: reach us by phone at one eight three three m 755 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: I A tips. That's one eight three three six four 756 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: two eight four seven seven again one eight three three 757 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,319 Speaker 1: six four two eight four seven seven, or you can 758 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: reach us via email at tips at i heeart media 759 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: dot com. That's tips T I P s at i 760 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: heeart media dot com. An important note, none of the 761 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: people Jerry Paisley claimed took part in or had knowledge 762 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,960 Speaker 1: of the alleged bombing Joe Banano, Joeya Tarola, Danny Zevnach, 763 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,240 Speaker 1: Jane Fowler, Larry Fowler, or Peggy Baggage were ever charged 764 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: with or convicted of crimes tied to any of Paisley's allegations. 765 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,600 Speaker 1: Peggy Beggatte and Danny Zevinage declined multiple requests for an 766 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,960 Speaker 1: on the record interview. Gene Fowler was unavailable for an interview. 767 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: Joe Banano, Joeya Tarola, and Larry Fowler are dead. Louis Marconi, 768 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,839 Speaker 1: the X cop who was friends with Paisley, also was 769 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: never charged with or convicted of any crime tied to 770 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,000 Speaker 1: any of Paisley's allegations. Marconi declined multiple request to do 771 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,879 Speaker 1: a recorded interview. Ben Boland is our executive producer. Paul 772 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: Decan is our supervising producer. Chris Brown is our assistant producer. 773 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam T. Garden is 774 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: our research assistant. And I'm your host and executive producer, 775 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,880 Speaker 1: John Wallzac. You can find me on Twitter at at 776 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 1: John Wallzac j O n W A l c z 777 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,760 Speaker 1: a K. Footage for this episode was provided by NBC 778 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: Special Thanks to Steve Fowler. Among other things. Steve is 779 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: an author. He didn't ask me to plug his book, 780 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: but I will anyway. It's called Spy Games Inside the 781 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,800 Speaker 1: Murky World of Corporate Espionage. You can find it on Amazon. 782 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,080 Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska is a co production of i Heart 783 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:59,800 Speaker 1: Media and Greenfork Media