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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Wednesday. We made it.

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Speaker 2: It is Wednesday, August six. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here

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Speaker 2: as always with crime analyst Body moven Our co host

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Speaker 2: and Katie Studios founder Stephanie Leidecker is out tonight, but

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Speaker 2: we have two name them, two very exciting guests joining

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Speaker 2: us tonight. Stephanie will be jealous that we didn't get

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Speaker 2: to talk to them, but you'll be glad to hear

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Speaker 2: from them as well. We have a stacked night of headlines.

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Speaker 2: Celebrated activist Leonora Claire is joining us to discuss our

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Speaker 2: advocacy and experience as a victim of stalking. Later in

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Speaker 2: the show, pop culture expert Doronto Fear will be sharing

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Speaker 2: it's this case that has really gotten a hold of him,

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Speaker 2: and it's a disturbing murder case, but it's important to

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Speaker 2: talk about. It really highlights disparities in media attention that

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Speaker 2: certain groups of people get or do not get. Also,

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Speaker 2: we're going to bring you up to date. We have

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Speaker 2: the latest on Blake Lively's legal drama. It's a mess.

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Speaker 2: And first we have been getting so many talkbacks. Thank

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Speaker 2: you very very much, and let's start off with one.

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Speaker 3: Now, Hello there, guys. This is Karen from Nasau, New York,

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Speaker 3: a small town in Rensuller County between Albany, New York

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Speaker 3: and Pittsfield, Mass I just want to let you guys know,

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Speaker 3: you guys are doing an awesome job. I love it.

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Speaker 4: We have a lot of crime here.

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Speaker 3: And oh yeah, I'm fifty six years today.

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Speaker 5: Happy birthday to me, Well, happy birthday, Happy birthday to you?

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Speaker 4: Is right? Oh my god, you.

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Speaker 5: Were making some faces. Are you from that area or something?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's funny NASA, But then she specified it's not

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Speaker 2: Nasa County, which that's Long Island, but they're both in

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Speaker 2: the state of New York. But Nasa County is where

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Speaker 2: she's talking about, is upstate and super bucolic and a

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Speaker 2: wonderful place. And hope you are having the best birthday.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I want to clarify she was making happy faces,

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Speaker 5: not upset.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, I was like, oh, NASA.

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Speaker 5: Oh, happy birthday, so much to you, and we hope,

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Speaker 5: we both hope that you're having the best day ever.

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Speaker 5: And I'm sure if Stephanie was here, she would also

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Speaker 5: say the same thing, So happy birthday probably so yeah,

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Speaker 5: she probably would start saying, right.

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Speaker 2: So, body, what do you want to start with? I

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Speaker 2: know there's a bunch of headlines to get to.

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Speaker 5: Well, so the big the headline right now is the

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Speaker 5: shooting that happened at Fort Stewart in Georgia. Sergeant Cornelius Radford,

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Speaker 5: he is the suspect. He is in custody after opening

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Speaker 5: fire on his coworkers basically and shooting five US Army

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Speaker 5: soldiers at Fort Stewart in Georgia. This happened this morning.

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Speaker 5: Shots erupted, initiating an immediate lockdown, while the suspect was

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Speaker 5: quickly apprehended by the soldiers that surrounded him in an

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Speaker 5: enforcement Thankfully, all five people that were shot they're going

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Speaker 5: to survive. Thank god, all five had been quickly transported

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Speaker 5: to military and civilian hospitals where they are receiving treatment

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Speaker 5: and expected to make full recoveries. So our hearts are

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Speaker 5: with them and hopefully for speeding recovery.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 5: As far as our suspect is concerned, he's twenty eight.

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Speaker 5: He was a logistics sergeant, an active duty soldier. He

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Speaker 5: has no prior deployments. There's no like war time scenarios

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Speaker 5: that affect him. He does have a previous DUI arrest,

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Speaker 5: which his commanding officers were completely unaware of. It happened

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Speaker 5: back in May of this year. Okay, so I don't

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Speaker 5: know if that was something that I don't know. Again,

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Speaker 5: he was an automated logistics specialist with a second armored

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Speaker 5: gay Combat team and he opened fired on his coworkers

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Speaker 5: at the base shortly before eleven o'clock Eastern time. According

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Speaker 5: to Brigadier General John Lubis, He's the commander of the

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Speaker 5: third Infantry Division, the base was under lockdown from around

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Speaker 5: eleven o'clock to just afternoon. So, I mean, this happened

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Speaker 5: very quickly, and they I'm really impressed with how quickly

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Speaker 5: they recovered too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just sounds like everyone went into action.

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Speaker 2: They got into action, they locked the base down, they

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Speaker 2: handled it. You know, the victims were gotten to safety,

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Speaker 2: and like you said, thank God that they are all

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Speaker 2: expected to be.

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Speaker 4: On the road to recovery.

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Speaker 5: But one thing that's interesting is in this shooting, he

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Speaker 5: reportedly used a personal handgun. He didn't use any like

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Speaker 5: military weapons that were is shoe to him. I don't

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Speaker 5: know if that means anything, but officials are right now

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Speaker 5: declining to speculate on a motive, citing the investigation. So

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Speaker 5: we will keep everybody updated, So stay tuned for more

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Speaker 5: when we hear as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and once again, just speedy recovery to everyone.

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Speaker 5: Definitely, what do you have Courtney?

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Speaker 2: Okay? Epstein, Epstein, Epstein? Oh okay, this yeah, I mean

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Speaker 2: sweep in the nation, cover the nation. So the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration officials, they're kind of weighing strategy. They're figuring out

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Speaker 2: how to deal with this mounting pressure about the Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein case. And for those who are unaware, Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 2: was convicted of sex trafficking and has been tied to

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Speaker 2: many high level literally leaders of nations around the world,

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Speaker 2: and he has since deceased as a result of hanging himself.

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Speaker 2: As the official report goes in present nobody believes they

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Speaker 2: That's why I said the official reports No, no, many

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Speaker 2: or most do not seem to. But what has really

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Speaker 2: been growing these past just days are the victims and

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Speaker 2: their family members and they want to have a seat

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Speaker 2: at the table because, as I said, the administration officials

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Speaker 2: are internally debating a lot of things, including whether to

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Speaker 2: release audio recordings of the Attorney General Todd Blanche's recent

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Speaker 2: interview with Gileene Maxwell, who is Jeffrey Epstein's convicted accomplice.

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Speaker 2: So you know, the survivor's families again, they were both

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Speaker 2: Maxwell and Epstein convicted of sex trafficking. And the survivor

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Speaker 2: is particularly one of victim, Virginia Dufrey, who is one

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Speaker 2: of the most outspoken women. She has since very sadly

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Speaker 2: died of suicide. They're protesting that they're being excluded from

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Speaker 2: the decision making and they are condemning any potential deal

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Speaker 2: with Maxwell.

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Speaker 5: You know, that's such a it's such a touchy thing,

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Speaker 5: right because I mean, I'm just gonna be blunt, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: do it. I don't know in what scenario a victim

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Speaker 5: or a victim's family, if the victim is passed on,

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Speaker 5: has in the decision making process when it comes to legalities.

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Speaker 5: Mm hmmm, they don't. They have zero decision making processes.

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Speaker 5: This is up to the people in charge that we've elected.

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Speaker 5: You know what I mean. In typical situations, victims' families

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Speaker 5: have zero say in what happens to the perpetrators.

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Speaker 2: It goes to the legalities right versus moralities. But the

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Speaker 2: legalities are what rule the right.

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Speaker 5: And I'm not saying I like that. I'm not saying

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Speaker 5: I'm just saying that's how it is, like, don't shoot

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Speaker 5: the messenger, right, like, please don't come at me. But

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Speaker 5: it's very rare that anybody will consult with families on

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Speaker 5: the outcome of something legal like this. Now, they might

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Speaker 5: get opinions and weigh those opinions of the families, but

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Speaker 5: they don't even have to listen to it, you know

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Speaker 5: what I mean, Like, there's no legal obligation to take

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Speaker 5: what the families want into consideration. But I know, if

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Speaker 5: you know of different, give us a call, let us know.

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Speaker 2: YEP eight at eight three to one crime absolutely, but

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Speaker 2: you know it does depend. Piked In is a case

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Speaker 2: that Stephanie and I reference often. It's a case we've

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Speaker 2: followed for many years and done multiple seasons of podcast

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Speaker 2: on and the prosecutor in that case and gikinnepa fiercely

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Speaker 2: loyal and close to the victims' families so much so

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Speaker 2: that a judge kind of slapped her hand. And that's

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Speaker 2: a whole story we'll get into, but he said, basically,

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Speaker 2: what you're saying, it's like, listen, we can listen to

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Speaker 2: the victims' families, but they're not driving the train.

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Speaker 4: I'm completely messing up the quote, but.

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Speaker 5: That's the gist. And yeah, it's again I don't love that.

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Speaker 5: I don't relish that. But when these kinds of things

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Speaker 5: come up, I'm always like, well, what did you you know,

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Speaker 5: what did they think I was going to have? And

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Speaker 5: they think they were going to be they want to

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Speaker 5: be brought into this decision making process that's going to

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Speaker 5: affect millions of Americans' minds. I don't right that they

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Speaker 5: you know, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, I feel bad for them, and they're saying, like,

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Speaker 2: I'll just you know, I want to give voice to

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Speaker 2: some of their words because you're right, legally, do not

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Speaker 2: believe they have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately, but Virginia,

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Speaker 2: do phrase brother a quote. Survivors are saying, no, no

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Speaker 2: to leniency, no to a pardon. Will you silence them again?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's rough, it's complicated, but it's sad. It's sad,

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Speaker 2: and it also is such an exceptional case since it

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Speaker 2: is I mean that one of the top things on

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Speaker 2: Americans minds.

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Speaker 4: Right, So we'll kind of see. It's still unfolding.

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Speaker 2: But there was a big meeting between JDV Bands, Pambondi,

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Speaker 2: Cash Battel and you know, figuring out what's going to

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Speaker 2: go on. Will this information be released or no?

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Speaker 5: Wow, So I just read the Virginia Dufray's family issued

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Speaker 5: a public statement criticizing their exclusion from the meeting and

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Speaker 5: offering to attend in her place, arguing that survivor's voices

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Speaker 5: are still being sidelined. That's a powerful statement, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the victims are at the center of this crime.

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Speaker 2: Without the victims, there are no crime. These are powerful

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Speaker 2: the women whose lives have been revocably altered.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, that is ongoing. We will keep you updated. And

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Speaker 2: I think you had a little bit of an update

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Speaker 2: on a Tennessee case.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the Austin Drummond case. And it's not really that

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Speaker 5: big of an update though there's the motive still isn't clear.

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Speaker 5: Little things are coming out and one of the things

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Speaker 5: that we've learned last night actually, but we were on

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Speaker 5: the air and couldn't report on it. Austin Drummond, he

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Speaker 5: is the man that was arrested yesterday for shooting four

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Speaker 5: people in Tennessee. And this and then then was the

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Speaker 5: baby that was left in like the driveway of the home,

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Speaker 5: in the stranger's home. And it turns out the four

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Speaker 5: people that were killed are the baby's family, and specifically

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Speaker 5: the baby's mom and dad and the baby's grandmother and uncle.

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Speaker 5: And now when I say uncle, I'm not talking like

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Speaker 5: about a thirty five year old boy. This guy, this boy,

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Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I was fifteen years old. So it's a

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Speaker 5: family of it's a young family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So the week long man hunt for twenty eight Austin

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Speaker 5: Drummond concluded early Tuesday morning, when he was spotted by

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Speaker 5: construction crew and arrested in the woods near Jackson, Tennessee.

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Speaker 5: Authorities began searching for Drummond on the twenty ninth after

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Speaker 5: a seven month old was left abandoned in a stranger's

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Speaker 5: front yard and the relatives of the child were found

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Speaker 5: dead in nearby Tiptonville. So what's come out recently is

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Speaker 5: Caitlin Speed. Caitlyn Speed is the grandmother of the baby.

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Speaker 5: She's one of the victims, the grandmother sister. Okay, so

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Speaker 5: keep that in mind. Caitlyn is the grandmother's sister. Now again,

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Speaker 5: the grandmother, I'm not thinking, I'm not talking about a

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Speaker 5: sixty year old and I'm talking about a thirty eight

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Speaker 5: year old woman. She's young, Okay, So this is her

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Speaker 5: sister of Courtney Rose, she's the victim. Well, Caitlyn was

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Speaker 5: in a romantic relationship with Drummond. Okay, so further implying

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Speaker 5: like a targeted attack because now they're familiar, right, right,

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Speaker 5: So basically, Austin Drummond is accused of killing his ex

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Speaker 5: girlfriend's sister and her family. There's a lot of moving

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Speaker 5: people here, and I'm so excited. Pop culture expert Deron o.

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Speaker 5: Fear will be weighing in on the intensifying Blake Lively

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Speaker 5: and Justin Baldoni. Woh battle, I've heard it's been pretty spice. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: but first, we're going to be diving into a super

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Speaker 5: important topic and we haven't even covered on this show yet.

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Speaker 5: But before we bring on our expert guest, Courtney, do

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Speaker 5: you have the latest headline in regards to it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I sure do, And this.

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Speaker 2: I believe this was brought to our attention by a

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Speaker 2: DM or a talkback or someone had sent in information.

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Speaker 2: So a woman has been arrested for the fifth time

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Speaker 2: for allegedly stalking post Malone. This happened times five times

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Speaker 2: post Malone. If you don't know him, you can maybe

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Speaker 2: picture him with many tattoos on his face and also

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Speaker 2: a really lovely smile and spirit.

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Speaker 5: He's the best.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So this woman again was arrested for five times. This

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Speaker 2: time she pled guilty to stalking. This was just two

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Speaker 2: days ago and this latest arrest came to after the

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Speaker 2: woman her name is Cherish Christine Gohmer. Allegedly she jumped

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Speaker 2: right in front of post Malone's car while he was

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Speaker 2: trying to leave his home, and the arresting officer requested

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Speaker 2: that should be held without bail. He said that she

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Speaker 2: doesn't appear to care about the consequences of stalking and

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Speaker 2: that things appear to be escalating in terms of her

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Speaker 2: attempting more frequent contact.

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Speaker 5: Can she not take the hint, girl, He's just not

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Speaker 5: that into you.

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Speaker 4: He is not okay, he is.

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Speaker 5: Not leave him alone, move on, get some help please.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I'm sure this woman probably really needs it,

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Speaker 2: so we'll keep you up to date as that continues

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Speaker 2: to unfold. But we are so thrilled and honored because

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Speaker 2: here to speak with us right now is Leonora Claire,

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Speaker 2: and she's going to talk about what stalking victims really

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Speaker 2: face and how the system needs to change. So Leonora,

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Speaker 2: she is nationally recognized as a victim's advocate. She is

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Speaker 2: an anti stalking activist and listen, Leonora survived a really

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Speaker 2: terrifying ordeal with the man, and this man also had

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Speaker 2: targeted Kim Kardashian and Wyneth Paltrow. And since Leonora has

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Speaker 2: become literally one of the most powerful voices for reform,

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Speaker 2: she has taken her fight all the way to the

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Speaker 2: White House, and she is a founding member of the

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Speaker 2: Laed District Attorney's Crime Victim's Advisory Board. Welcome, Leonora, Hi,

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Speaker 2: it's so nice to be here with both of you.

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Speaker 5: We're so happy, we're so happy to have you, so

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Speaker 5: happy that you take time out of your busy schedule.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 7: Of course, anything that platform is the subject, you know,

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Speaker 7: count me in. And as I overheard you talking about posts, No,

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Speaker 7: there's certainly no contest, but I've had my stalker arrested

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Speaker 7: six times, and even after being convicted of felowy stocking

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Speaker 7: and serving years. You know, people always say to me,

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Speaker 7: I am so sorry that happened to you, and I

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Speaker 7: look at them and say, it is not past tense,

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Speaker 7: It is not a happening. It is a happening. So

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Speaker 7: you know, for a lot of us, that really speaks

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Speaker 7: to the ongoing nature in the ongoing threat.

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Speaker 5: Well, speaking of Leonora, if you don't mind, can you

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Speaker 5: tell us about your experience with stalking If.

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Speaker 7: It's okay, yeah, of course, I mean I to talk

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Speaker 7: about it all the time. Before I get started, I

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Speaker 7: want to say that I'm in no way stigmatizing the

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Speaker 7: mentally ill. It's just something I'm going to be talking

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Speaker 7: about in reference to my stalker, and I am just

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Speaker 7: one of you know, it's a really underreported crime. So

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Speaker 7: the statistics we have aren't even accurate, but the most

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Speaker 7: recent ones in the United States it's thirteen point five

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Speaker 7: million Americans. So with it not just celebrities, that's just

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Speaker 7: who it's you know, being platformed, and it's being reported on.

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Speaker 7: It's really epidemic. It's all populations. So I am just

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Speaker 7: one experience, you know, if we're going to just sort

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Speaker 7: of break down the stats right now, Currently it's about

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Speaker 7: half former intimate partner half stranger acquaintance, which is a

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Speaker 7: new thing. It used to be overwhelmingly former intimate partner,

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Speaker 7: but thanks to the Internet and social media, people frequently

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Speaker 7: I'm going to just make an assumption with post malone stalker,

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Speaker 7: there's a psych disorder called eroto mania, which is one

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Speaker 7: of the psych disorders that my stalker has, where you

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Speaker 7: have an unhealthy and untrue relationship with the individual where,

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Speaker 7: for example, my stoker thinks were married and we're not.

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Speaker 2: He's just a.

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Speaker 7: Stranger to me. And also because we only have so

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Speaker 7: much time. I also want to say that as I'm

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Speaker 7: expressing my story, if I'm just sort of getting to

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Speaker 7: the facts of it all and I'm saying it without emotion,

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Speaker 7: it's not that it isn't an emotional, terrifying story because

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Speaker 7: it has been one of the most traumatic and dramatic

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Speaker 7: experiences of my life. I'm just for the sake of brevity,

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Speaker 7: trying to squeeze in as much as I can. So, yeah,

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Speaker 7: my story started back in twenty eleven. I was living

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Speaker 7: in Los Angeles. I opened up an art gallery was

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Speaker 7: one of the proudest moments of my life. I got

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Speaker 7: a lot of media at that time. And my stalker,

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Speaker 7: who I can say his name, it's Justin Massler, but

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Speaker 7: he had it legally changed to cloud Star. Chaser was

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Speaker 7: already arrested for stalking Avanka Trump out in New York.

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Speaker 7: I didn't know any of this, why would I. And

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Speaker 7: he had tried to kill himself in her store, So

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Speaker 7: this is somebody with a history of, you know, violence

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Speaker 7: and scary behavior. He had jumped bail from the situation

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Speaker 7: that he had with Avanka, and he came to Los Angeles.

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Speaker 7: He opened up the La Weekly, which is you know,

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Speaker 7: used to be a big magazine here, and they had

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Speaker 7: done a nice profile on me. He saw my photograph,

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Speaker 7: he became fixated. He came to my gallery. He was

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Speaker 7: wearing a spacesuit. And when you work in the arts,

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Speaker 7: you know a while, we have a high sort of

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Speaker 7: tolerance for quirky behavior and fun characters. So I was like, cool,

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Speaker 7: did you start us whatever? I just thought it was

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Speaker 7: kind of funny, and I interacted with him, and he

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Speaker 7: looked at me and he said, you look just like

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Speaker 7: jessic A Ravit. I said, okay, okay, I hear that sometimes.

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Speaker 7: And then he looked me right in the eye and

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Speaker 7: he said, I am going to stock you and right.

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Speaker 7: It was really chilling, but you know, I just sort

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Speaker 7: of was like okay, and so I had, you know,

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Speaker 7: my friends, we kind of kicked him out of a gallery.

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Speaker 7: I didn't think much of it other than it was

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Speaker 7: a creepy interaction. And then a few days later on

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Speaker 7: the sort of celebrity blogs, there was this story about

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Speaker 7: how the Trump's had hired bounty hunters to extradite this

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Speaker 7: guy back to me. My friends were like, oh my god,

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Speaker 7: that's the guy that we had to kick out at

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Speaker 7: a gallery with you. That's crazy. And sure enough, he

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Speaker 7: was then held in Riker's Island. And that's when the

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Speaker 7: letters started appearing at my gallery. And at first they

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Speaker 7: were just sort of unhinded ramblings that very quickly escalated

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Speaker 7: to absolutely terrifying sexual assault and death threats to me.

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Speaker 7: So I walked into LAPD Northeast Division with a mountain

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Speaker 7: of evidence, like so many letters, right, and I had

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Speaker 7: the assumption that this person, who already had a history

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Speaker 7: of violence and you know, engaging in this crime, that

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Speaker 7: they would take me seriously. And at that point in

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Speaker 7: twenty eleven, Lapd, I have bright red hair. Your listeners

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Speaker 7: don't know that, but I do. They said to me,

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Speaker 7: die your hair and get off the internet. That was

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Speaker 7: what they were to do for me, which was right,

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Speaker 7: a whole lot of nothing. And so at that point

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Speaker 7: it just started, you know, escalating, and then he got

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Speaker 7: out of jail and then it was like just this

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Speaker 7: barrage of I mean just the most egregious, horrifying, very specific,

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Speaker 7: clearly a very intricate fantasy about how you int to

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Speaker 7: do these things to me. So it was at that

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Speaker 7: point that I had to learn things like how to

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Speaker 7: track IP so that I wouldn't because he would bounce

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Speaker 7: around the country like where he was in relationship. So

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Speaker 7: I worked as a PI now, which is you know,

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Speaker 7: for me, it was a lot of sort of things

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Speaker 7: that I had to do in order to stay safe.

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Speaker 7: But I see where the root for all this began.

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Speaker 7: So you know, I started learning risk assessment and management

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Speaker 7: just to like keep myself safe because law enforcement wasn't

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Speaker 7: doing anything for me. And then I went public with

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Speaker 7: my story in twenty fifteen. Prior to me too, when

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Speaker 7: the culture was even worse if you were coming out,

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Speaker 7: you know, someone is being victimized. And I remember at

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Speaker 7: the time, everybody on Twitter, because they I were red,

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Speaker 7: lipstick or whatever, they would say things like dress, how

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Speaker 7: you want to be addressed, and I was victim blame

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Speaker 7: and victim shamed, and it was just really terrible. And

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Speaker 7: so that's when I was just like I've had enough,

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Speaker 7: Like this is too much. And that's when I decided

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Speaker 7: to start telling my story in the news and the media.

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Speaker 7: And I was very fortunate that I was platformed, but

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Speaker 7: unfortunately for me, people they didn't believe me, and so

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Speaker 7: it until I did the show Forty eight Hours in

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Speaker 7: twenty sixteen, they did like a two hour special on

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Speaker 7: my case. And I will say this now in hindsight,

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Speaker 7: is I'm also a TV producer, so I understand why

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Speaker 7: the producers made this decision. But they interviewed my stalker

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Speaker 7: without my consent and without telling me. Oh and right,

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Speaker 7: And I understand that because you know, forty eight Hours

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Speaker 7: and shows like that, they do homicide stories, so they're

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Speaker 7: not used to dealing with active, active investigation and the

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Speaker 7: living survivor situations. So they interviewed my stalker and you know,

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Speaker 7: it's a there's two sides to it. On one side,

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Speaker 7: I had the most incredible evidence, which is him being

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Speaker 7: terrifying on camera threatening to kill me. Right, So now,

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Speaker 7: I mean, that's what it takes. I guess it takes

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Speaker 7: seventeen million people on TV hearing this for people to

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Speaker 7: suddenly believe me. But what that ended up doing was

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Speaker 7: triggering him to want to attempt to kidnap me. So yeah,

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Speaker 7: so he contacted me because my stalker is GISO effective.

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Speaker 7: So a lot of stalkers and predators, they're slick. They're

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Speaker 7: not going to tell you what they're going to do,

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Speaker 7: but mine does, which is another reason why you know,

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Speaker 7: a lot of times when people are dismissive, Like I

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Speaker 7: tell people, if you're getting trash talk on social media,

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Speaker 7: it's okay to block people, but if you're getting threats

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Speaker 7: and you need this as evidence, you you really shouldn't

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Speaker 7: block people because you need to know because all of this,

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Speaker 7: you know, I wouldn't have known my stalker was going

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Speaker 7: to come to kidnap me if I dead blocked him.

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Speaker 7: So my stoker told me that he was going to

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Speaker 7: come and kidnap me from La Comic Con, and he

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Speaker 7: didn't realize that I have friends there, including Doron, who

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Speaker 7: who's one of the owners. Yeah, yeah, drawn's the best.

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Speaker 7: So I was able to work with Comic Con, who

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Speaker 7: were incredible that children were always safe, they were never

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Speaker 7: at risk, but we hired security. We addressed them as

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Speaker 7: Batman and Superman. So when I'm skipping one part, he

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Speaker 7: was also stalking Kim Kardashian at this point, and I

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Speaker 7: thought like her intense x masod security team was going

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Speaker 7: to catch him, but no, it was it was me.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 7: We hired the security to look like Comic Con character,

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Speaker 7: and when he came to kidnap me, we caught him

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Speaker 7: and we held him down and hand delivered him. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 7: oh my god. When he was threatening to kidnap me,

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Speaker 7: he he made good on it. And so the other

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Speaker 7: part that I forgot to mention was my activism that

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Speaker 7: started in all of this. So during this window of

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Speaker 7: time I'm doing all this media, I'm learning how to

430
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 7: do restraining orders. I've now done so I always say

431
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 7: it's not a frozen yogurt punch card. I don't know

432
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 7: exactly how many I've done. I've done well over one hundred.

433
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 7: But I started learning all the ways to protect myself

434
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 7: or to protect other people. And then Vice did this

435
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 7: article on me. They called me the Aaron brocket Itch

436
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 7: is stalking That went super viral, which is like a

437
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 7: lot to live up to. And that's when people started

438
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 7: because they weren't getting help from law enforcement, because they

439
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 7: weren't getting the resources that they needed, they would just

440
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 7: like google the term stalking and they would see me

441
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 7: on TV or you know, and so they started reaching

442
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 7: out to me. And that's when I started teaching people

443
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 7: the stuff that and now I now have certifications and

444
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 7: I've studied with the FBI and I'm now at PI.

445
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 7: But at the time, I was taking the practical skills

446
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 7: that I had learned, you know, very close to your body.

447
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 7: We learned all the things right to do that we

448
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 7: have to right and so I started using that to

449
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 7: protect other people. And that's where more of the activism

450
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 7: and you advocacy side of things started.

451
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: So, Leonora, we are very very excited to get into that,

452
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 2: which actually we're going to do in depth.

453
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 4: Seless.

454
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are speechless and are so grateful for you

455
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: sharing your story so far. And listen, people should be

456
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: calling in if they have questions for Leonora about any

457
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: tips on how to feel safe eight A A three

458
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: to one crime, Keep it here, True Crime Tonight, We'll

459
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: be right back. We are honored to be back with

460
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: nationally recognized victim's advocate and anti stalking activist Leonora Claire.

461
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: She's been sharing what the reality of being a victim

462
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 2: of stalking is like. So we're going to now focus

463
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 2: on how does the system needs change and what she's

464
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 2: been up to, so we'll get right back into it.

465
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 4: Hello again, Leonora.

466
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 7: Hi, Yeah, you know I realized I completely glossed over

467
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 7: the fact that I had to shut down my gallery,

468
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 7: that I had worked so hard so the listeners at

469
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 7: home can imagine whatever their career is that they work

470
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 7: so hard were because it was a public facing business,

471
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 7: I had to you know, you.

472
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 5: Know, we were talking break. We were talking during the

473
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 5: break about how impressive you are, and I was saying, like,

474
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 5: I can't believe they wanted her to change. She had

475
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 5: to die your change her hair and move and shut

476
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,239
Speaker 5: down her gallery and d d da da da da da.

477
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 5: But not him. He didn't have to change anything. You

478
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 5: had to change. It was ridiculous.

479
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 7: Well, let me tell you, I wore my doc Martins

480
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 7: all the way to the White House. So no, you

481
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 7: don't have it for you. You don't have to change

482
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 7: to get the just fun good for you. Yes, but

483
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 7: that that absolutely was how it was put out to me,

484
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 7: and which is just horrifying. But yeah, so as far

485
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 7: as you know everything and just just wrapping up my store,

486
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 7: and again I'm walking over a whole lot. But I

487
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 7: got a felony conviction felny max, which was four years

488
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 7: in California, but because of a proposition called Prop fifty seven,

489
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 7: which is really misleading, Like I get why people voted

490
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 7: for it. It's supposed to be non violent offenders reduced sentencing,

491
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 7: which sounds great until you realize the crimes that California

492
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 7: consider is nonviolent, which includes sexual assault of an unconscious

493
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 7: person for sodomy, human trafficking, and stalking. So these are

494
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 7: all very violent crimes. I'm asplutely serious. Yeah, So even

495
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 7: though I got him on selny stocking max four years,

496
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 7: it was immediately reduced to two because of this proposition.

497
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 7: So even when you do the thing like I am,

498
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 7: it is so rare to get what I got, and

499
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 7: I had to work for years to get to my

500
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 7: selony conviction, and after he served several years for stalking me,

501
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 7: he violated within three days. So this is what I

502
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 7: want people to understand. Right. And then the other thing.

503
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 7: One of the statements that I made that's really chilling,

504
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 7: and I said it at both the White House and

505
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 7: Department of Justice, is when we think about stalking, people

506
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 7: don't really realize the connection to the lethality because when

507
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 7: there is a homicide with a stocking component, say for example,

508
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 7: we'll say Idaho, right, they don't do the additional stalking church,

509
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 7: they just never do. So you're not definitively tying it together, right,

510
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 7: So we don't even have the accurate statistics that show

511
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 7: you what the potential for lethality is. And that's why

512
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 7: people culturally they laugh at off, they confuse it with harassment.

513
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 7: You know, they really see it. I always say, it's

514
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 7: like how people saw sexual assault in the seventies. It's

515
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 7: a really misunderstood crime. It's also a heavily nuanced, complicated crime.

516
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 7: It's hard for people to understand. And now with the

517
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 7: technology component, there's just like so much going on. So

518
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 7: you know, that's why I do what I do, and

519
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 7: it's completely altered the course of my life. But you know,

520
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 7: last year, myself and five other survivors and Stark, which

521
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 7: is an amazing organization, we got to s beak at

522
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 7: the White House about this Department of Justice Office of

523
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 7: Violence against Women, and we were heard in a way

524
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 7: that it's never been recognized like this before. There was

525
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 7: at that point again the Biden White House, a million

526
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 7: dollar grant which was supposed to go towards technology improvements

527
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 7: and law enforcement training. Unfortunately, with everything going on now,

528
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 7: that solving cut there was over eight hundred million cut

529
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 7: for services to victims and survivors. So it's a dark

530
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 7: time right now. And also about a year ago, there

531
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 7: was a Supreme Court ruling called Counterman and I actually

532
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 7: made friends with the survivor because that's what I do.

533
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 7: I reach out to them. But her name is Cold Whalen,

534
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 7: and she was a musician and she was being stalked

535
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 7: by a fan and he was convicted of stalking her.

536
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 7: And then he thought that his right to send her

537
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 7: death threats was being taken away from him. He thought

538
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 7: it was a violation of his First Amendment right, and

539
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court ruled in his favor. They ruled in

540
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 7: his favor so now it's even harder to obtain restraining

541
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 7: orders because of the optics around that ruling, because a

542
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 7: lot of restraining orders are predicated on a threat of

543
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 7: the violence that you believe is going to happen. So

544
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 7: now if you can argue that the Supreme Court doesn't

545
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 7: really recognize these threats, so it's even harder to get

546
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 7: restraining orders right now.

547
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I mean such the wrong direction.

548
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 7: That's a lot on you, guys.

549
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: No, I'm so glad that you're letting us know. Like

550
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 5: I lived in like a fairyland where I thought like

551
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 5: things were actually better and you're actually giving it, hitting

552
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 5: me in the face with reality. So I totally appreciate

553
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 5: what you're what you're saying, Like I'm like, I'm just

554
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 5: kind of speechless, Leonora, Like you mentioned Idaho and you

555
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 5: know they said, you know, Brian Coberger wasn't stalking them,

556
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 5: but I know I looked up the laws in Idaho

557
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 5: and they have to be aware of it in order

558
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 5: to be considered stalking s It's crazy. It's crazy.

559
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 7: Didn't you go by there like twenty times that we

560
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 7: know the pilling or something, but because they.

561
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 5: Weren't aware of it, but because they weren't aware of that,

562
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 5: they he wasn't legally stalking them.

563
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 7: It's crazy, right, Yeah, every state has like weird rules,

564
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 7: Like I think in Utah it's really hard to get

565
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 7: a restraining order if it's not former intimate partner. Like

566
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 7: every every state has some you know, some something that

567
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 7: makes it very difficult. You know, people always ask me

568
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 7: because I've worked on legislative proposals and things like that,

569
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 7: people who's ask me, like what law do we need?

570
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 7: And like, hold on a minute, we don't even enforce

571
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 7: the ones that we have. You know, it really comes

572
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 7: down to education, prevention, law enforcement training. Like law enforcement

573
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 7: needs to understand risk assessment. They need to know when

574
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 7: you come in, you know, what's trash talk, what's the

575
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 7: real threat? How they can then you know, escalate that

576
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 7: and give you help. And you know, for a lot

577
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 7: of us, when the tech component, like we don't have

578
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 7: the minds to figure certain things out and it's all

579
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 7: evidence base. You're not getting prosecution without evidence. So you know,

580
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 7: people get so hung up thinking like there's a magic

581
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 7: law that's going to fix everything, and it's like no, no, no,

582
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 7: all these other things need to be in place first.

583
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 7: And frankly that's why I started. I have a private

584
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 7: investigation company that's okay, and the majority of our focus

585
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 7: is this for this reason, because we have a specialized training,

586
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 7: but also for the fact that a lot of populations

587
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 7: are not comfortable with law enforcement. We have a lot

588
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 7: of for clients LGBTQIA clients, BIPOP clients who you know,

589
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 7: they need us as the intermediaries that they feel comfortable

590
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 7: with because we're survivor centered and you don't always get

591
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 7: that with law enforcement entities.

592
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: Right, that must be such an important component. And listen,

593
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: if you have as many questions as we do for

594
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: Leonora Claire, please give us a call.

595
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: We're at eight eight three one crime.

596
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: So, Lenora, you mentioned sort of sifting through to figure

597
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: out what are viable threats? What are signs that people

598
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: should be looking out for for themselves if they are

599
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: in a situation where they fear a stalker, have a stalker,

600
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: like what what are are there any takeaways people should have?

601
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 7: So many? So first I want to find the crime

602
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 7: legally and slightly you know, variant, and but for the

603
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 7: most part, it's two or more unwanted attempts to contact

604
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 7: and make a reasonable, reasonable person feel and you're for

605
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 7: their safety. So it's really about establishing a pattern of unwanted,

606
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 7: unacceptable behavior, right, So you know, maybe somebody does one

607
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 7: thing and it's like creepy, but when it's two, three,

608
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 7: four things, then you've you have a pattern there and

609
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 7: it's something that you should be you know it. I

610
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 7: always tell people, like people now use the term the ick,

611
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 7: like when you have the it, listen to the ick, right,

612
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 7: like that is you know, we're protecting ourselves here and

613
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 7: definitely you know, as far as you know enjoying the internet.

614
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 7: It's a wonderful thing in social media, but it's really

615
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 7: important to practice.

616
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 4: You know.

617
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 7: They call it like social media hygiene and it's like

618
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 7: a weird term, but just there's a lot of data

619
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 7: and our photos, right.

620
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 5: I say that all the time, Lenaura, all the time. Yeah, yeah,

621
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 5: got I'd be private with yourself.

622
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 7: That's right, yeah, exactly, or just or just really careful,

623
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 7: don't post where you are when you're there. You know,

624
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 7: it's just these kinds of choices. We're not saying don't

625
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 7: enjoy it. A lot of us need social media for

626
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 7: our jobs. You can absolutely do that, but it's just

627
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 7: really you know, being careful in your decision making. And

628
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 7: I would say it's the same thing as me. You

629
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,959
Speaker 7: put a seatbelt on in a car, like you know,

630
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 7: automobiles can be dangerous, but you do your best. You

631
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 7: put in as many layers of protection as possible.

632
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 4: Right, it's a great analogy.

633
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, you don't need to be posting like the layout

634
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 5: of your home online, you know what I mean. You

635
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 5: don't need to do those things. Turn off all the

636
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 5: location stuff on your phone so that when you're uploading

637
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 5: pictures to Instagram, it's not automatically tagging that you're at

638
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 5: the local Jason Penny, you know what I mean. Like,

639
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 5: you just don't need to do those things. I preach

640
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 5: that a lot. It's so important, it is, and so

641
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 5: many people just want to overshare and I totally get

642
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 5: it because I do too. But you just you have

643
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 5: to be so careful because you just never know. And

644
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 5: you know, you get these restraining orders and whatnot, but

645
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 5: those are just pieces of paper as far these as

646
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 5: far as these people are concerned, right, they don't actually

647
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 5: not really.

648
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 7: You I mean, they're the step that's required to do

649
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 7: the thing. But as far as the enforcement, you know,

650
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 7: that's the whole other thing. It's compelling law enforcement to

651
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 7: take you seriously and to act on that infraction. Just

652
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 7: for context, I have four thousand violations of my restraining order.

653
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 7: When I say four thousand, those are four thousand death threats,

654
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 7: right what they should have arrested on all of them,

655
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 7: but they weren't going to track him down, right, and

656
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 7: so I had to do it myself.

657
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 5: Did these all happen online? Yeah?

658
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, well he did go. He did go to places

659
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 7: where I had frequented, Like he went to my eyelass salon.

660
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 7: He tried to kidnap my dog, you know, he did

661
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 7: all those things. Yeah, yeah, that'll happen.

662
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 5: I just find that every time you talk to the

663
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 5: law enforcement about the Internet, they're like Internet, who ha, Internet,

664
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 5: you know, they're just like na the Internet, you know,

665
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 5: like they just don't take it seriously. But it's it's

666
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 5: incredibly serious.

667
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 7: Right and for you know, people don't realize that for

668
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 7: most of us. Someone unless you wipe yourself like I

669
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 7: have for three whole dollars, you know, you can go

670
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 7: I'm not going to say the website, but there's a

671
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 7: lot of websites where people can go and get your

672
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 7: home address.

673
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 5: For three dollars, absolutely right, lots of them, so.

674
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 7: Right, and we right, we're not saying those sites, but

675
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 7: we both know what they are, so and that's absolutely terrifying.

676
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 7: So definitely there are places that help you wipe your

677
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 7: shrub yourself from the internet, your home address. And that's

678
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 7: really we.

679
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 5: Should do a segment on that, Courtney, because I've done it.

680
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 5: We should.

681
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: I think we should. I think we absolutely should. And

682
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: you know what else I think we need to do

683
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 2: is to have you back, Leonora' oh fascinating or you're fantastic,

684
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 2: we have I have about one hundred and seventy more

685
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: questions from just hearing you, I mean, honestly educate us.

686
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, incredible. You really are the Aaron Brockovich of stalking,

687
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 5: Like that's such a great term for what you've done,

688
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 5: because it's all been yourself, grassroots figuring it out, navigating

689
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 5: the system, working with legislation like that's that's a big deal.

690
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 5: Like you should be really proud of yourself.

691
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 4: And going all the way to the White House.

692
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, for sure, So listen, Thank you again, Leonora,

693
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 2: sincerely for joining us. It has been so eye opening

694
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: and for anyone who's interested in learning more about Lenora's

695
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 2: work and supporting these very important causes. Lenora has two companies,

696
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: so her consulting work can be found at Lenora Claire

697
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: l LC dot com. That's l E N O R

698
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: A C l A I R E l l C

699
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: dot com. And her private investigation work can be found

700
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: at special KPI dot com. And we want to hear

701
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: from you, so give us a call. We're at eighty

702
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: to eight three one Crime or get with us on socials.

703
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 2: We are at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and

704
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 2: Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Later in the show,

705
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: we'll be covering a really tragic and shocking case. It's

706
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: the murder of Sam Norquist, and that's going to be

707
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: with our guest Doron Ofear who frequents the show. But

708
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 2: right now, body and I are sitting here mouths agape

709
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 2: in awe of Lenora Claire.

710
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, she was great. I never knew her story until today,

711
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 5: talking to her, just how the things that she had

712
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 5: to do instead of relying on law enforcement, the things

713
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 5: that she had to do in order to feel safe

714
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 5: in her own home and her own skin, and they

715
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 5: wanted her to change her appearance and move like what,

716
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 5: I'm just blown away. And one thing I thought that

717
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 5: was really interesting and that that I learned that she

718
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 5: didn't get to talk about, but you know, we had

719
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 5: we had some notes from her. Non consensual image based

720
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 5: abuse is the term that we should be using for

721
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 5: revenge porn. Revenge was apparently outdated. I didn't know that.

722
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 5: I did not know that.

723
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 4: No, I didn't know that either.

724
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: It's that's so interesting because revenge porn is something you know,

725
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: I would use as.

726
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 5: I've used it recently. I hope I didn't offend anyone

727
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 5: like I certainly never. I hope that wasn't offensive. But yeah,

728
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 5: so the term that we're that we're supposed to be

729
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 5: using for you know, that is non consensual image based

730
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 5: abuse because it's more survivor based language. It's more survivor centered,

731
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 5: and that makes a lot of sense when you realize, oh, yeah,

732
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 5: you know, like, I don't know, I just she was fascinating.

733
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 5: I really I would love to sit with her in

734
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 5: her Doc Martins and my doc Martins and have a

735
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 5: chat and we both had to kind of pioneer some

736
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 5: things with our Yeah, right now, she was fascinating. I

737
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 5: thought she was great.

738
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's just you know, brilliant.

739
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 5: And this guy he changed his name to like cloud

740
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 5: Surfer or something.

741
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: Well, not only that, but you know that goes back.

742
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: We had talked weeks ago about I forget who it was,

743
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: but it was about someone who I believe was on

744
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: death row changed their name.

745
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 5: And also, but that's think of the changes of that

746
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 5: Ken Bianki. He's the Hillside Strangler, that's right, And he

747
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 5: changed his name to whatever.

748
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: I don't need to say it, but but if someone

749
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: is changing their name after you know, they've been accused

750
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: or convicted of a fel any like Stock, then it's

751
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: a lot harder to say, you know, go get Joe

752
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: Smith when his name isn't Joe Smith any longer.

753
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, you know Luca changed his name. Is his

754
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 5: real name was Eric Clinton and he changed it to

755
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 5: Luca mgnatta.

756
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, was there a why to that that you're

757
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: aware of?

758
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 5: He well, so back in the day, and I don't

759
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 5: even know if this is still true, but you used

760
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 5: to have to publish if you were changing your name,

761
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 5: you used to have to publish it in like a

762
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 5: periodical that the public had access to, so that you know,

763
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 5: so That's how I knew he changed his name is Ace.

764
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 5: I found it in the Ontario Bizette in like nineteen

765
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 5: ninety seven or something and Eric Clinton Newman that was

766
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 5: his name, and uh, I was like, oh my god,

767
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 5: his name isn't even Luca. But my understanding is that

768
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,959
Speaker 5: Luca Mgnatta was more you know, exotic, and he wanted

769
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 5: to be this moment right. But my point, my point

770
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 5: in bringing that up is, Yeah, they changed their names

771
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 5: all the time, and I don't think they should be

772
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 5: able to. I don't think it should be allowed to

773
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 5: change your name if you've convicted or if you've been

774
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 5: convicted of a violent felon.

775
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, because you know, case in point what Leonora

776
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 2: was saying. Yeah, And another thing I couldn't believe when

777
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: she mentioned things that are categorized as non non violent

778
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: offenses including what did she say, sodomy on an and stalking.

779
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 5: There was a there was a list she gave them.

780
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: There was a huge list, yea, And I like, I

781
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 2: want to go back and dig I would dig into

782
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: that and you know, hopefully she'll.

783
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 4: Be honest and she's right.

784
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 5: You know, social media has made it's so much easier

785
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 5: to stalk people, right, Like, that's right. If you guys,

786
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 5: please be careful. Please please, I'm begging you to be careful.

787
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 5: Don't post your kids, remove your kids from Facebook, remove

788
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 5: you know your wedding anniversary things that you I mean,

789
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 5: they're so innocent and I love to see these things too,

790
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 5: like happy anniversary. I'm like, I'm so happy for you

791
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 5: and I truly am, but please stop.

792
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: Is there anything particular about the wedding anniversary that specifically

793
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: you shouldn't share?

794
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 5: Just nobody needs to know, right, Those are just things

795
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 5: that people. People can use like dates, to target you,

796
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 5: to validate that the data they have. It's a data point, right,

797
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 5: So if I know your wedding anniversary, I can go

798
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 5: to a website and find your information.

799
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 6: Right.

800
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: Oh well, all these good tips. Listen, stay with us.

801
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: At the top of the hour, we're going to be

802
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: covering the latest true crime headleys. We're getting into Baldoni, Blake, Lively,

803
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: and that real life Annabelle.

804
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 4: Dog whole thing about that.

805
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 2: Keep it here True Prime Tonight.

806
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 5: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

807
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 5: true crime all the time. I'm crime Analyst. Body move

808
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 5: in here with Kati Studios. Producer Courtney Armstrong, our co

809
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 5: host Stephanie Liidecker is out tonight. Don't forget if you

810
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 5: miss any part of tonight's show, you can all always

811
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 5: catch the podcast and we want to hear from you.

812
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 5: Give us a call at eighty eight three. Do you

813
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 5: want crime or get with us on our socials at

814
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 5: True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or you

815
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 5: can use Facebook and look for True Crime Tonight. Later

816
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 5: in the show, we're going to be telling the story

817
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 5: of Sam Norquis, a man who was brutally murdered by

818
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 5: his online girlfriend. Scary, scary, scary. But now we're going

819
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 5: to get some recent news with our resident pop culture

820
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 5: expert and one of my favorite people literally that I've

821
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 5: ever met, producer and La Comic Con partner, Doran oh Fear.

822
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 5: Good to have you back. Don I'm so happy to

823
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 5: see you the Yeah, I love it so happy. Every

824
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 5: time Doran comes on, I just have this big smile

825
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 5: on my face and I'm like beaming because he's so

826
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,959
Speaker 5: fun and you know, we talk up a lot about

827
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 5: a lot of dark stuff on the show, and it's

828
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 5: really fun to have somebody like doron here to talk

829
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 5: about some of the headlines and pop culture. It's just

830
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 5: really great. But Courtney, we have some stories though that

831
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 5: we've been following.

832
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 4: What do we got?

833
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, this is a mess, and Doran, I'm particularly

834
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: excited about your purview into it.

835
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 4: So listen.

836
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: This legal drama, it continues to ramp up in the

837
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: ongoing battle between It ends with US star Blake Lively.

838
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: She's the one lone Blantaire married to Ryan Reynolds, has

839
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: a bunch of kids between her and her director and

840
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: co star of that movie, Justin Baldoni, So Blake Lively.

841
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: They've been embroiled in a dispute for quite a while,

842
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 2: and Blake Lively accused Baldoni of sexual harassment and also

843
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: of retaliation and having really nasty stuff said about her

844
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: on the internet basically to turn the public against her. Okay,

845
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: he vehemently denies that, and that's very important. Baldoni then

846
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: filed a four hundred million dollar countersuit he alleged extortion

847
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 2: and defamation.

848
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 4: So a lot of this has.

849
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: To do with you're making people think bad about me,

850
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: and so are you the defamation? Yeah, but that claimed

851
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 2: Baldon's claim was dismissed by a federal judge, and there

852
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: is a trial that's currently scheduled for March twenty twenty six.

853
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 4: Okay, so that's kind of the broad strokes.

854
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: And then here are the updates that have happened kind

855
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: of fast and furiously within the past week. July thirty, first,

856
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 2: Blake Lively gave private depositions about the disputes, and Baldoni

857
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: showed up at the hearing, which was a surprise to some.

858
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 5: He showed up to her depositions.

859
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, Oh my god, Yes, that's right, which

860
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: legally he can.

861
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, it's just not legal. You can do that common,

862
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 5: that's not common.

863
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: Okay, No, And then it came out that Baldoni, who

864
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: is backed by a billionaire wayfarer company, they are suing

865
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: multiple insurance companies for denying to cover legal fees relating

866
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: to his ongoing Lively lawsuit. Okay, so lawsuit. Okay, Deron's

867
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: making a face. What do you think?

868
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 4: Are you?

869
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 6: Like?

870
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 4: Well, so would you or I just.

871
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 6: Think that this entire thing has been blown out of

872
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 6: insane proportions. Ultimately, for me, as somebody who's in the

873
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 6: entertainment industry, the biggest scandal here is really the war

874
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 6: between the publicists because they were the ones that released

875
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 6: the information, they were the ones that created the narrative,

876
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 6: They're the ones that leaked information to the press, and

877
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 6: it was already came out that both sides of the

878
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 6: publicists kind of did their own clients dirty. So yes,

879
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 6: I understand that the biggest of the Hollywood names are

880
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 6: all caught up in this in this scandal, but when

881
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 6: you break it down to its base causes, there were

882
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 6: a lot of very i would say, off color things

883
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,959
Speaker 6: that occurred on camera. Now, whether she wanted somebody there

884
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 6: as you know, the person to monitor during the sex scenes,

885
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 6: or whether he was showing very intimate photos to other

886
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 6: women on the staff, including you know, the makeup and

887
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 6: the hair people, and there was multiple people that came out.

888
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 6: The question really is is how all the publicity machine

889
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 6: works and how they set them up. And I think

890
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 6: that that's the real crime there.

891
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's interesting that you think because that is

892
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: you know, a crux of both of their you know,

893
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: legal complaints. And when you say the publicist kind of

894
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: doing like do you feel like the publicists just escalated

895
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: this way far beyond what.

896
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 4: It needed to be.

897
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 6: I think the publicists broke their actual ethics in how

898
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 6: they handled this game. I think that both sides gave

899
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 6: information to the other side in a way of trying

900
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 6: to appease each other, and ultimately they used the weapons

901
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 6: against each other. This is a publicist fight.

902
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 5: Well, we should be careful because I understand Blake Lively

903
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 5: is subpoenaing Google and x to obtain private data on

904
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 5: more than a dozen small journalists. Now I do know

905
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 5: about this because I have been following this leg of

906
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 5: this drama and she is getting information on like, you know,

907
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 5: content creators who have reportedly expressed unfavorable opinions about her.

908
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 5: And I don't like that. I don't like that at all.

909
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 5: He don't be able to have an opinion without the

910
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 5: fear of you know, legal ramifications. You're allowed to have

911
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 5: an opinion.

912
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And even though she has she's withdrawn some

913
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: of the subpoenas.

914
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, like three of them or something, right, that's right.

915
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but still those creators are, you know, super wary

916
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 2: of right further legal pressure, and Gladly's team does continue

917
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: with the legal actions against the higher profile critics like

918
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: Perez Hilton and Candae Owens, which I also it doesn't

919
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: sit well.

920
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 4: You. Yeah, it gets real dicey with shutting down people.

921
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 6: Go ahead, But I do think that when you have

922
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 6: a platform and you are considered a blogger or you

923
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 6: are somebody with moons and millions of followers, your power

924
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 6: far extends that basic media. And because they are not

925
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 6: regulated in any way, then facts don't matter. And when

926
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 6: you when you cover it up with the concept of opinion,

927
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 6: you're throwing accusations without any kind of fact based other

928
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 6: than opinion, then you're basically doing a counter assassination. And

929
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 6: we're seeing it in every element of our society right now.

930
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 6: Social media is an unregulated town hall of the one

931
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 6: drunk in a bar that has something to say, yeah,

932
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 6: and normally we would discard that drunk, but unfortunately now

933
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 6: it's anything and everything. So the second you are considered

934
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 6: a public figure, it is free reign against you.

935
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 5: And I agree with that part. If they are using

936
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 5: their opinions and presenting them as facts, then I do agree.

937
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 5: But if they're just saying, you know, like this, like

938
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 5: for right now, I'm saying, like I feel like this

939
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 5: is the Spider Man meme where they're all pointing at

940
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 5: each other like they're all guilty of it. You know,

941
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 5: this is how I feel. This is right now. If

942
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 5: I get subpoenas for saying that, then I have a

943
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 5: problem with it. But if I present it as a fact,

944
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 5: right like you know, they're they're all guilty, I'm not

945
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 5: saying they are. Please don't sue me. You know they're

946
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 5: all guilt, d da da da da, Then yeah, I

947
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 5: can see I can see that being an issue for sure.

948
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 6: We still live in an age where tabloids like The

949
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 6: Inquirer were you know, on a supermarket that, oh yeah,

950
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 6: you know what I mean, like like you took it

951
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 6: as entertainment nonsense. Now the lines have been blurred and

952
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 6: people don't know what to believe anymore.

953
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 5: Right, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio, where

954
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,879
Speaker 5: we talk true crime all the time. I'm Buddy Moven

955
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,240
Speaker 5: and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and pop culture expert

956
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 5: Dorano Fear, and right now we're talking about the Lively

957
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 5: Baldoni legal situation in Battle. If you want to weigh

958
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 5: in with your thoughts, give us a call at AY

959
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 5: eight thirty one crime or send us a talkback message

960
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 5: when you're listening on the iHeartRadio app. Just clicked the

961
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 5: little microphone icon in the top right corner. What else

962
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 5: is there about this? Anything Courtney anything?

963
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 2: Well, the last sort of most recent update and this

964
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: will be continuing. But Lively's team is also accusing Baldoni's

965
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: team of leaking this is crazy to me, of leaking

966
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: the nearly three hundred page transcript from that deposition. And yeah,

967
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: she's asking a federal judge for it to be removed

968
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: from the public record.

969
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 4: That's crazy.

970
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 5: That's well, once it's out there about the.

971
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 6: League, I know, I mean, becomes an admissible and court

972
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 6: of law, and they'll lose lost it because of it.

973
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 5: Right, they will. They'll lose because of it.

974
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: You know, this whole thing's kind of a messy disaster.

975
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: It will continue evolving, will keep you updated. But now

976
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: I'm dying to know a little more about that. Comedian

977
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: mattess tell me so.

978
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 5: On Friday, just this past Frietay, August first, comedian Matt

979
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 5: Rife announced on TikTok that, along with his friend YouTube

980
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 5: creator Elton Casty, that they had officially purchased the Home

981
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 5: and Museum of Ed and Lorraine Warren, a haunted collection

982
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 5: called the Warrens, a cult museum, which includes, you guys,

983
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 5: the infamous Annabelle Doll so scary that story.

984
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 6: I mean, the dollars terrifying land enough, but that house

985
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 6: was also the vault of some of the most haunted

986
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 6: things in the world. And if people aren't familiar from

987
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 6: a pop culture perspective, the number of movies that Edwin

988
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 6: and Lorraine have started in terms of their fictional portrayal

989
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 6: is the entire Conjuring series. It's Annabelle and a multitude

990
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 6: of the nun And these are all things based on

991
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 6: truth because they were paranormal investigators. And I remember in

992
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 6: the eighties, if people are going to go throw back

993
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 6: to this, they used to be that Friday the Thirteenth

994
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 6: series that had nothing to do with Jason, but it

995
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 6: had to do with those two investigators that would collect

996
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 6: anti content items. And I loved it. And now it's

997
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 6: sort of loosely based on the same couple. Well, Life

998
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 6: bought not only the house next door and the compound,

999
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 6: he bought the entire facility. Now that house, technically, my

1000
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 6: understanding was that he was either taken down or not

1001
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 6: at one point. But that means that that land needs

1002
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 6: to be.

1003
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 5: Salted, right, like cleansed. Right, they need to performs some

1004
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 5: kind of ceremony on this land. But Matt said, I

1005
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 5: know a lot of you guys don't know what any

1006
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 5: of this means whatsoever. But if you follow ghost stuff,

1007
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 5: this is about as big as it gets. And I

1008
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 5: really think that kind of underscores like this is a

1009
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 5: really big deal. This Annabell Doll, Like even I know

1010
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 5: about this Annabel Doll, and I don't even follow ghost stuff,

1011
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 5: but I don't follow ghot stuff because it's too much.

1012
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 6: He's not the only one. He's not only one, because

1013
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 6: you know, the old star of Ghost Hunter, he as

1014
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 6: well bought other than the museum in Vegas, he bought

1015
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 6: a conjuring house, yes, technically one of the most haunted

1016
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 6: houses in the world. And you know, this idea of

1017
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 6: hunted real estate isn't booming industry. I remember growing up

1018
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 6: on Long Island and the Ammiteville House was something that

1019
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 6: we always wanted to go see. I would totally good.

1020
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 5: I stayed at EST's Park or the Shining was filmed,

1021
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 5: because because the Shining was filmed there, I stayed there.

1022
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 2: But the Amityville House is the most benign look, I've

1023
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: been by it. We at the top of the show

1024
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 2: mentioned Nassau County, Darnariza County, Long Island, and it's not

1025
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: into it.

1026
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 4: I was with my sister.

1027
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: We were driving to Ikea. We pass it on the

1028
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 2: way like it's it's just a house.

1029
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 6: We drove there. I remember we all piled into a

1030
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 6: car as teenagers and we went to go see the

1031
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 6: amatebur House. And this concept of dark tourism is kind

1032
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 6: of a big deal. And if I go back to

1033
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 6: Zach Baggins, who is the old sort of ghost hunters,

1034
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 6: He's the one that actually bought the Conjuring House. He's

1035
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 6: been collecting these haunted items like the Dybbuk box and

1036
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 6: Ted Bendy's glasses and all sorts of weird sort of horror, haunted,

1037
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 6: killer crime related items, and then he opened that museum,

1038
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 6: which is an immersive museum in Las Vegas.

1039
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 5: Well, Raife shared a photo of himself and CASSII, his

1040
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 5: YouTube partner that also bought this stuff in the presence

1041
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 5: of the Annabel Doll.

1042
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean that sounds to me, that's

1043
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: sounds like good publicism.

1044
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 4: Listen.

1045
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 5: I just think it's kind of a curse. I just

1046
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 5: think it's kind of a curse. And I just I

1047
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 5: don't know if you should be dabbling in it. Just

1048
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 5: it scares me too much, and it scares me too much, Like.

1049
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 6: Why to heck that dark energy? Why touch it? You know,

1050
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,439
Speaker 6: It's like I don't know if it's building a house

1051
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 6: and I find a box under the floorboards, I am

1052
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 6: not opening that battle.

1053
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 5: Well, I'm good, I probably would. I like to be scared,

1054
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 5: you guys, I don't know why, but I like to

1055
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 5: be scared. But this, the Annabel dollar is too much

1056
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 5: for me, one personally, one bit too far.

1057
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 6: I don't things like that.

1058
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 5: Well, stick around because we've got more to dig into.

1059
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 5: Doron's going to be telling us about the story of

1060
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 5: Sam nor Quist, and I'm you know, this is a

1061
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 5: personal story that I think he and I both really

1062
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 5: care about and his tragic and you know, very shocking murder.

1063
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 5: And you know, let's keep the conversation going. Give us

1064
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,759
Speaker 5: a call eighty eight thirty one Prime. We really want

1065
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 5: to hear from you. You know, think of us is

1066
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 5: just sitting around the kitchen table having a cup of

1067
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 5: coffee talking, you know, the latest headlines.

1068
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 2: And we are diving back in with pop culture expert

1069
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 2: Dorano Fear, who is a frequent and fabulous and beloved

1070
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: guest of the show. And Doran, I know there's a

1071
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: case that's been close to your heart that you know,

1072
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: you think is important to share, and we really think

1073
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 2: it's very important to share as well, Buddy, can you

1074
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 2: just catch people up with sort of the broad overview

1075
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 2: of the case facts.

1076
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 5: There's so it's so horrific. The broad strokes are even

1077
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 5: kind of her request. So Sam Norquist left his home

1078
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 5: in Minnesota last fall and traveled about one thousand miles

1079
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 5: to be with the woman he'd fall in love with online. Right,

1080
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 5: it's like the age old. You know, he met somebody online,

1081
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 5: he's going to go be with her. He ended up

1082
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 5: imprisoned in a cutreat hotel in upstate New York, suffering

1083
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 5: unspeakable horrors before he was killed. A gang of seven people,

1084
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 5: including the woman, which he'd had trucked across the country,

1085
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 5: had been charged with his murder, accused of torturing and

1086
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 5: humiliating the twenty four year old transgendered black man in

1087
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 5: the hotel room for weeks before they eventually killed him.

1088
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 5: The only people who called police were Norquit's mom and

1089
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 5: sister back home, who pled for authorities to check in

1090
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,879
Speaker 5: on him when he stopped responding to their messages. Very

1091
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,439
Speaker 5: very very very very sad. That's the broad stream.

1092
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 6: This is a sad, sad story. And I think I

1093
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 6: want to begin this by really just talking about We

1094
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 6: always talk about the killers that we talk about, you know,

1095
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 6: the murderers and the criminal behind it. But I want

1096
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 6: to give this person a name. And his name was

1097
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 6: Sam Norquist. And you know, he was a twenty four

1098
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 6: year old black male born assigned female at birth. He

1099
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 6: is part of the LGBTQ community. He was beloved in Minnesota.

1100
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 6: He was a caregiver by profession. He worked in in

1101
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 6: social care and worked with the elderly. He was somebody

1102
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 6: who transitioned socially and then medically, and he lived proudly

1103
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 6: as a man. And he wasn't disconnected from his family.

1104
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 6: He wasn't an outcast. He isn't anything that was left

1105
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 6: to be put into a corner of any way. He

1106
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 6: was very well adjusted and from all accounts, he was

1107
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 6: a beautiful soul. What he was lacking in his life

1108
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 6: was love. And what happened to him was that he

1109
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 6: was lured and he met a woman online and that

1110
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 6: woman was Precious Zwega. I'm sorry if I mispronounced the name.

1111
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 6: And they had this online romance and he picked up

1112
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 6: the things. He moved and he went to Hopewell, New York,

1113
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 6: which is upstate New York, and he moved into this

1114
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 6: place called Patty's Lounge, which was sort of, you know,

1115
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 6: a b rap motel. Yeah, and it.

1116
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 5: Was really right, like a weekly kind of place like yeah.

1117
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 6: And in this hotel there were others, you know, and

1118
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 6: it was sort of this, I guess a community home

1119
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 6: if you will. You know. I'm not exactly sure what

1120
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 6: happened from that point forward, but it was seven adults

1121
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 6: and it was two children. And he ended up being missing.

1122
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 6: And the people that reported him missing because they did

1123
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 6: not speak to him over a period of two three days,

1124
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 6: was his mother and a sister, and they started to

1125
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 6: say something's wrong. They knew that this wasn't like him

1126
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 6: to disappear and not communicate. They left this for over

1127
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 6: a month, and over a month when the police finally

1128
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 6: made the break in the case, they found him wrapped

1129
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 6: in plastic in a field. He was brutally starved, beaten,

1130
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 6: He was sexually assaulted, he was tortured, he was isolated,

1131
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 6: he was dehumanized. They kept him for a month, and

1132
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 6: seven adults and they coerced the children to participate in

1133
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 6: this torture. And what makes this even worse is that

1134
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 6: this isn't a traditional hate crime. This isn't you know,

1135
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 6: a pickup truck, you know, with six guys. They were

1136
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 6: all mixed race, they were mixed gender, they were mixed

1137
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 6: sexual identification. There were some that were part of the

1138
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 6: LGBTQ community and it's a horrific crime of what kind

1139
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 6: of issue poisoned their mind to get into this torturous abuse.

1140
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 6: You know the seven people, I can name them, you know,

1141
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 6: Precious Zwega, Jennifer Quicano, Kyle Sage, Patrick Goodwin, Emily Montoya,

1142
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 6: Thomas Evans, and Kimberly Sochia, and they're all facing first

1143
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 6: degree murder. They were arrested and they were arrested for kidnapping,

1144
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 6: aggravated sexual abuse, conspiracy, and child endangerment because they put

1145
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,439
Speaker 6: those two children in the mix to be a part

1146
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 6: of this horrific and brutal crime. And what's crazy about

1147
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 6: this is is that if this was you know, a

1148
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 6: run of the mill was kind of Midwest female with

1149
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 6: an eyewatch and an iPhone. This would have had a

1150
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 6: ten episode series by now.

1151
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, and this is.

1152
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 6: Not getting media attention, and nobody talks about it. And

1153
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 6: then the question becomes, is it because it was this

1154
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 6: is an lgbt T story? Is this queer crime? You know?

1155
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 6: The crime is really quite horrific and unfortunately for me

1156
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 6: not being such a big true crime person myself, it

1157
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 6: has eerie similarities to Silence of the Lambs. And this

1158
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 6: isn't Buffalo Bill. This is a group of Buffalo Bills,

1159
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 6: and they reveled in it. You know. The free trial

1160
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 6: conference happened on April ninth. They're being held in Ontario County,

1161
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 6: New York, and the protective orders were issued for the children.

1162
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 6: So the children have been removed from the custody of

1163
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 6: Precious and we'll see what goes on because the trial's

1164
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 6: currently set to begin on October and September seven.

1165
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 3: Right.

1166
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Deron, I'm so glad that you

1167
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: brought attention to this case, as absolutely horrific as it is,

1168
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 2: because listen, when when cases don't get media attention, like

1169
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 2: you said, if this was some blonde lady from the Midwest.

1170
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 4: It would be a totally different scenario. That's not the case.

1171
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 2: And actually, we'd like to hear if you have if

1172
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 2: you have thoughts on people who are marginalized for different things,

1173
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 2: whether it's race, whether it's gender, whether it's anything you

1174
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 2: can always call, we'd love to hear from you.

1175
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 4: Eight at eight to three, one crime and deron.

1176
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 2: Am I understanding correctly that the children who were involved

1177
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 2: and coerced were seven and twelve years old.

1178
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 4: Correct, That's that's.

1179
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 2: About second and seventh grade to put it in perspective, right, yeah,

1180
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 2: very you know.

1181
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 5: One thing is one thing. Sam's friend said, his friend

1182
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 5: Jason Seeger, Jackson Seeger, I'm so sorry, Jackson Seger said,

1183
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 5: And it just I can't it hit me when I

1184
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 5: read it. He wanted to find love and he wanted

1185
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 5: to be loved. No one can blame him for that.

1186
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 5: Anyone would want that. He was excited for the trip

1187
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 5: and the adventure. So Sam, he finally thought he met

1188
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 5: somebody who understood him. He thought he finally met somebody

1189
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 5: that loved him for him. Right, and think about it.

1190
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 5: This is a black, transgendered man. He finally meets somebody

1191
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 5: who loved him, and he's so hopeful, and he drives

1192
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 5: a thousand miles to get there and he's tortured for

1193
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 5: a month.

1194
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 6: It just brutally srudal, hearth. He was tortured, he was bound,

1195
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 6: he was abused. And this is when, you know, it's

1196
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 6: funny when you say a man. You know, I understand

1197
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 6: that this is sort of a great, great area in

1198
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 6: terms of age. But he was twenty forty.

1199
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 5: He was young. That's true. That's true, very young, very young.

1200
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 2: And I'm appalled and not understanding this. Prosecutors have stated

1201
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 2: there is currently no evidence that indicates that the murder

1202
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 2: was a hate crime, and the investigation it continues to

1203
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 2: explore all possible motives, right, I mean, well, this.

1204
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 6: Is what this is what's insane about this, This is

1205
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 6: this case. And I'm not you know, it's when when

1206
01:02:56,680 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 6: it's when it's when it's racial, religious, sexual identity, it

1207
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 6: almost always chategorized into a hate crime. Is if the

1208
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 6: hate crime is going to sort of justify the abuse

1209
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 6: or the crime. This was a crime, regardless, and this

1210
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 6: was not only a crime, it was a murder, and

1211
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 6: it was a murder in the most horrific way. And

1212
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 6: when I talk about like Buffalo Bill and Silence of

1213
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 6: the Lambs, you know, this is worse because this actually happened.

1214
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 6: You know, there is rumors that he was kept in,

1215
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 6: you know, in sort of a ditch for a period

1216
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 6: of time. And they talk about that not being a

1217
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 6: hate crime simply because the group accused or makes the

1218
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 6: racist gender sexual identities. Some were queer, some or not,

1219
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 6: but they were for sure broken in some way.

1220
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1221
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 5: So the reason that they don't they're not thinking that

1222
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 5: this is a hate crime is because Sam and the

1223
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 5: perpetrators shared the same community. They knew each other, and

1224
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 5: they were also members of the LGBTQ community. So that's

1225
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 5: why they're not looking at hate crime charges.

1226
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 6: And you know that's something it needs to be considered

1227
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 6: looking into the future of how we are labeled because

1228
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 6: the LGBTQ I A plus community is very broad. And

1229
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 6: if you have somebody who is a criminals, sociopath, mentally ill,

1230
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 6: and they happen to be any one of those letters,

1231
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 6: but they have a hatred towards the other, I don't

1232
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 6: know that that would not come to be considered a

1233
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 6: hate crime. And you know, this is a larger topic

1234
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 6: that needs to be sort of explored.

1235
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 5: The Ontario County Assistant District Attorney Kelly Wolford noted, here's

1236
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 5: what she said. A hate crime would make this charge

1237
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 5: about Sam's gender or about Sam's race, and it's so

1238
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 5: much bigger. To limit us to a hate crime would

1239
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 5: be an injustice to Sam. That's what she said. Yeah, no, yeah,

1240
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 5: so that's why it's not a hate crime currently. Now

1241
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 5: things could change, r but currently they're not looking at

1242
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,439
Speaker 5: this as a hate crime, right, are you see?

1243
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 3: Shared?

1244
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:06,919
Speaker 5: Thanks for me, go ahead, I'm sorry.

1245
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 6: And for me, I'm just glad that we get to

1246
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 6: name him, you know, because when the media isn't going

1247
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 6: to cover this, it's kind of our job to do ours,

1248
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 6: you know, and let people who know about that these

1249
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 6: kinds of crimes occur throughout you know, there was some

1250
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 6: seven hundred trans murders occurred in twenty twenty four alone,

1251
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 6: and that is an incredible amount in a community that

1252
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 6: is just applying viiably a tiny, tiny percentage of our

1253
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,439
Speaker 6: population as a point zero zero zero two, right, and.

1254
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 5: It's very small.

1255
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,439
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's so important to have, as you said,

1256
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 2: to name Sam Norquist in this instance, and to name

1257
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 2: people who are not otherwise named. I mean, that's part

1258
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 2: of the foundation that shot a Robinson.

1259
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 4: Who is a beautiful girl.

1260
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: She was nineteen year old who was murdered and dismembered,

1261
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 2: and thankfully her killer is now put away, but her

1262
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 2: mother is has started a foundation, Shaddy's Voice. She will

1263
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 2: be back on soon, and it is to give voice

1264
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 2: to people who do not get attention, because without attention,

1265
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 2: it often comes without charges, without legislation, without the other

1266
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 2: multitude of things. So in any case, I also say

1267
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: all of that to underline that we speak of these

1268
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: things not to be shocking or ghoulish. And this is

1269
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 2: horrible torture that we have been talking about, but because

1270
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 2: it's I think it's an ethical imperative to be honest

1271
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 2: with you, so.

1272
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 6: And his family deserves it and you know, for his respect.

1273
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 2: That's right, right, So thank you so much Jarn for

1274
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 2: you know, bringing that to everyone's attention, including mine, because

1275
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: I was unaware.

1276
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 4: But listen, keep it here.

1277
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 2: When we come back, we are going to have a

1278
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 2: different conversation. It's going to be around some dark tourism

1279
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 2: and we're going to be turning the mic over to

1280
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 2: you true Prime tonight.

1281
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 5: Okay, let's get back into it. We gotta talk back.

1282
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 9: Hi, it's your resident Wisconsin Stocker listening to Sunday Night's

1283
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 9: episode and just wanted to let you ladies know that

1284
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 9: just today I booked my tickets for me and my

1285
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 9: best friend to go on the Jeffrey Dahmer you were

1286
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 9: this weekend in Milwaukee. I will report back, But now

1287
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 9: I'm questioning if I'm really morbid or just curious about

1288
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 9: how it all went down. Have a great night, just

1289
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 9: thought it was funny and had to share love this.

1290
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 5: I think you're I think you're morbidly curious. I think

1291
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 5: you're both right, isn't that?

1292
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1293
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 2: And that must have been kind of a trip for

1294
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 2: us to be talking about it while you're like, oh, oh,

1295
01:07:56,720 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 2: I just booked that and look inside myself a little bit.

1296
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it's a little bit of both.

1297
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 2: And listen, it's it's compelling. We are human beings were

1298
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:10,919
Speaker 2: drawn to dark things for many reasons. And also it's

1299
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 2: somewhat titillating like that, that curiosity. It just I mean,

1300
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 2: it is deron what do you what's your opinion?

1301
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 6: It's a booming industry. It is a booming industry, whether

1302
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 6: it is haunted real estate. We were talking a little

1303
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 6: bit about the aminable horror or this this this this

1304
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:30,719
Speaker 6: US dark tourism. You know, it's been going on everywhere

1305
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 6: and there's even there are even New Orleans. One of

1306
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 6: the main things you do is a ghost tour. It's

1307
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 6: just it's part of the tourism. But this has now

1308
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 6: become very specific and I can actually get into the

1309
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 6: top five mostly not after dark tourism.

1310
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 4: Spot y bring.

1311
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 6: So I'll work it backwards. So number five obviously is

1312
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 6: the Manson Family tour. Oh and that's a Los Angeles

1313
01:08:55,560 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 6: tour and it is like howk which is crazy to say,

1314
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 6: but that is because it was infruments for the nineteen

1315
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 6: sixty nine Tate Lebianca murders. And this is the helter

1316
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 6: skelter of it all. This is you know, Charles Manson,

1317
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 6: and there's been so much media around it that in

1318
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 6: lately it has become it has hit the top five

1319
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 6: spot after sort of falling off for a while. But

1320
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 6: that was of Quentin Tarantino's film when he just did

1321
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 6: the Hollywood film and people got sort of reinvigorated by

1322
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 6: the concept of this horrific crime. Willan Polanski and you

1323
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 6: know the Tate Lebianca. And remember she was you know

1324
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 6: she she came from Valley of the Dolls. So this

1325
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 6: was like she was.

1326
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: Pregnant, she was grossly pregnant. She was nine nine months pregnant. Yeah,

1327
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 2: did they take you to the house that that? Did

1328
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 2: they drive by the house?

1329
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 6: Well, the houses have been rebuilt, but the spawn ran

1330
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 6: the ruins. The tour it still tops and their tagline

1331
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 6: for this tour is the murders happened in sixty nine.

1332
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:52,559
Speaker 6: The obsession never ended.

1333
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 5: Oh wow, So they take you to the ranch. They'd

1334
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 5: drive all the way the desert. Wow.

1335
01:09:58,160 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 6: I don't want I mean, if you if this is

1336
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 6: something you're morbidly curious about, and you know that's so,

1337
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 6: that's one of them.

1338
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 5: I'm going to pass on that one.

1339
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 2: What about you?

1340
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 5: Would you go let's see, let's take a pole. Would

1341
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 5: you go?

1342
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 2: No?

1343
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 4: I I would not go.

1344
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 2: Although it's so I'm actually kind of paused on the

1345
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 2: fact that, you know, the that it increased in popularity

1346
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 2: after the movie, so it just reinvigorate I mean, it

1347
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 2: makes so much sense.

1348
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 5: What about you, Dorod? Would you go?

1349
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 2: No?

1350
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 5: What about you?

1351
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 6: Tom? I want to I want to Unt House murder.

1352
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 6: You know, like, I'm not going to like the real thing.

1353
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 5: I get you. So you would go to the am

1354
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 5: Amityville Maybe.

1355
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 6: No, I would go to an Amitville pop up in Wisconsin.

1356
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 5: There you go, I'm down. I would not go to

1357
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 5: this one. I'm gonna say no. So all of us

1358
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 5: would pass on Manson. Yeah, but I feel like body.

1359
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:54,679
Speaker 4: Is your reason.

1360
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 2: I feel like your reason is you don't want to

1361
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 2: be in a jeep go into the desert.

1362
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:00,639
Speaker 5: Well, that's actually I live in the desert. Why would

1363
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 5: I want to go to another desert? Fair, let's be real,

1364
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 5: But really, I just don't have any interest in the

1365
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:06,480
Speaker 5: Manson murders.

1366
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:10,280
Speaker 2: Oh, we are hearing hold On from the control room.

1367
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 4: We have differing points of view.

1368
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 5: Sam and Adam they would you guys would both go.

1369
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 4: I would go.

1370
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:19,639
Speaker 2: That's That's probably the only one that I would go

1371
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 2: to for real, just because I love the sixties in

1372
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 2: the history.

1373
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, so I would go. Sam Nails album was

1374
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 5: recorded there, so okay, you would go for the music

1375
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 5: history then music, you're into it, let's go see it. Okay,

1376
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 5: I can respect that. Okay. What's number four?

1377
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1378
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 6: Number four Okay, Well, here's the tagline for number four.

1379
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:46,600
Speaker 6: It's come for the Continental Breakfast and stay for the

1380
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,759
Speaker 6: phantom bloodstains. This one is lizz It's the Lizzie Boarding

1381
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 6: House in Fall River, Massachusetts.

1382
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 5: Oh, I would do that one.

1383
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 6: See, this is the one I would do. And this

1384
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 6: is you know, this is infamous for the eighteen ninety

1385
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 6: two double as Murderer, and it's it's like why they

1386
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 6: call it so hot to say, because you get an

1387
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 6: overnight stay, they do re enactments, they do the ghost tour.

1388
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 6: There's a functioning that in Breakfast in the Murder House.

1389
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 6: So you're basically immersing yourself into the Lizzy Borden of

1390
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 6: it all. And you know, for me, that goes into

1391
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 6: a Victorian era. Yeah, murder it's not so recent.

1392
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:23,759
Speaker 5: It's far enough removed, right, Yeah, it's far enough removed.

1393
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 5: The family's all gone. There's no like living immediate family

1394
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 5: to you know, worry about it's and it's it's it's

1395
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 5: a little bit of history with the location and the

1396
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 5: house and the Victorian of it all. I would go

1397
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 5: what about you, Courtney?

1398
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:43,400
Speaker 2: Do you know I think I would go there because

1399
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: and I've mentioned this with this whole dark tourism, the

1400
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 2: fact that I spent several years of my life producing

1401
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,560
Speaker 2: a paranormal show and hearing people's.

1402
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 4: Stories, and Lizzie Borden.

1403
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, I saw some pretty compelling videos

1404
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:01,519
Speaker 2: that people got from the Lizzie bordon House, So I

1405
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 2: think i'd go.

1406
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 4: Plus it's an excuse to, uh, all right, go to

1407
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 4: the Okay, So I'm going, You're ago and Doran's going. Okay,

1408
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 4: So this is what.

1409
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 8: About I would do this one. It kind of falls

1410
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:14,719
Speaker 8: into that whole Salem which.

1411
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 5: Yes, oh my god, I want to go to Salem

1412
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 5: so bad.

1413
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 8: Something about that works for me. And also, I think,

1414
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 8: to someone's point, whoever pointed out it's older.

1415
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a little less disturbing. So yes to that one.

1416
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 5: All right, what about Sam and Adam, I'll pass on

1417
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 5: this one, you'll pass? What about you? Sam? Sam passes? Okay, Okay,

1418
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 5: we go trip.

1419
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 2: And oh yeah, and all right.

1420
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 6: A girls trip okay trip number three, number three. This

1421
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:52,520
Speaker 6: one became the top three now because of it, the podcast,

1422
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 6: the documentaries, and viral shoes. The tagline is aliens didn't

1423
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:02,360
Speaker 6: come for them, but tourists do. It's to Heaven's Gatehouse

1424
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 6: in Rancho Santa Fe, California. God, this is the number

1425
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:09,839
Speaker 6: three most thought after dark Tourism thought, which is crazy

1426
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 6: because it's infamous for the nineteen ninety seven cult suicide

1427
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 6: with the thirty nine members. Like, come on, so you

1428
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 6: just want to go and see like bunk beds and sneakers,

1429
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:25,280
Speaker 6: oh holy meaning to sneaker heads, Gabe, I think you're

1430
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 6: gonna want to go to see this one.

1431
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 5: I think I would go to this. Okay, you think

1432
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:32,559
Speaker 5: I would go to this. I would go to this

1433
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 5: because listen, I am obsessed with Colts.

1434
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and.

1435
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:40,920
Speaker 5: I watched everything on them. I've read everything on them.

1436
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 5: I even went to their website back in like the

1437
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 5: nineties to look at it and like it was like

1438
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 5: the whole Geo cities, like you know, it was crazy.

1439
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 5: I would probably go to this one, Courtney, I'm a

1440
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 5: pass taha.

1441
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 8: I'm also going to pass because it's yeah, this one

1442
01:14:58,000 --> 01:14:59,280
Speaker 8: bothers me with the suicide.

1443
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:02,719
Speaker 5: But by I would love to cover this story. Okay,

1444
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:05,680
Speaker 5: so maybe I can bring a microphone, you can correspondent.

1445
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:09,839
Speaker 4: All right, there you go, Okay, doron, I'm not interested,

1446
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:10,759
Speaker 4: not interested?

1447
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:12,720
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, I think Stephanie would go to this one

1448
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 5: with me. I think Stephanie would go.

1449
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 2: And I would be the one to say Stephanie, no, because.

1450
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 4: You are going to get too close to this.

1451
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 2: He's gone, Sam and Adam.

1452
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:24,679
Speaker 4: Now this one sounds scary.

1453
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 5: I have to I gotta pass on this. Okay, all right,

1454
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:28,679
Speaker 5: I'm going by myself then bye.

1455
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 2: Okay, listen, we want to hear from you. Okay, we

1456
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,959
Speaker 2: are in the middle of the dark tourism Top spots

1457
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,719
Speaker 2: to visit, brought to you or presented by Dorono fear.

1458
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 2: So give us a call. Eighty eight three one crime.

1459
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 2: Where would you go?

1460
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 4: Doroan? What's next?

1461
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 6: Okay? This one is sort of an obvious seventeen murders, cannibalism,

1462
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 6: just memberment, like that's what makes it hot. I mean,

1463
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 6: I hate to say it, but it's the Jeffrey Dahmer Trail.

1464
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 6: And our callback just said it. So Milwaukee with Townsend's

1465
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 6: the most attraction is the Jeffrey Dahmer Trail. And it's

1466
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 6: it's kind of a walking tour of the neighborhood, which

1467
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 6: makes it even crazier. So you're growing up bath houses,

1468
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 6: so you know, whatever this is. This is now the

1469
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:14,800
Speaker 6: big One and their tagline is true crime. Fans call

1470
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,639
Speaker 6: it educational. Locals just want you to stop gawking at

1471
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 6: the murder sites. So they're actually playing up the locals

1472
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 6: against it, which is nuts. So they've given them the

1473
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,960
Speaker 6: you know, I guess, the middle finger, and people are

1474
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 6: flocking to it, including our caller from you know, who's

1475
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 6: called herself the greatest stalker of the show.

1476
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 5: Right I listen, I'd probably do it, I know, I

1477
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 5: said I wouldn't.

1478
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 6: I know.

1479
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:41,600
Speaker 5: I said if I could, if I could wear a

1480
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 5: disguise and nobody would ever know I was there, I

1481
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:47,720
Speaker 5: would go. But people knew I was gonna be there.

1482
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 5: I wouldn't go.

1483
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 6: One of the things that people do on this tour

1484
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 6: is they do TikTok recreations.

1485
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:54,760
Speaker 5: No, no, no, they host.

1486
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:58,520
Speaker 6: Them for the gen Z generation and again because Dahmer

1487
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 6: is now considered hot thought, which is pathetic.

1488
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, well I've changed my mind. I've changed my mind.

1489
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 5: I'm not going to do that.

1490
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 8: Not a good one.

1491
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:08,600
Speaker 4: I'm not going that's no.

1492
01:17:08,840 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 2: And actually Sam and Adam in the control room, they're

1493
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 2: just like shaking their heads and uh.

1494
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'll do it for the TikTok content

1495
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 4: gen Z.

1496
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 5: He's doing it for the clouds. Yeah, doing it for

1497
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 5: the cloud I'm going to change my mind and say

1498
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 5: I won't go to that.

1499
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:27,840
Speaker 6: Are we ready for number one?

1500
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 2: Al Well, I want to tell you one thing. Deron

1501
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 2: the other night this came up, and do you know

1502
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 2: that justin Bieber when he went to Anne Frank's house afterward,

1503
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:43,240
Speaker 2: he said he was like, it was wonderful and or

1504
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 2: she was a great girl.

1505
01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 4: I think she would have been a believer and.

1506
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:50,760
Speaker 6: Frank, well, that's so wrong in so many ways. I

1507
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 6: didn't even want to touch it.

1508
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I I I literally I'm like, can you

1509
01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 2: please fact check that I didn't have a fever dream

1510
01:17:57,479 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 2: and make it up but one hundred percent true?

1511
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:01,800
Speaker 6: Before we go into the number one, you know, there's

1512
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 6: something to be said about the concept of, you know,

1513
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 6: is dark tourism also part of you know, memorials, whether

1514
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 6: it's the World Trade Center in New York or whether

1515
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 6: it's going to you know, Auschwitz and Berka. Now you know,

1516
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 6: for me, that doesn't fall into this category because I

1517
01:18:17,960 --> 01:18:21,600
Speaker 6: think that that's a testament of historical respect in a

1518
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 6: memorial sense bearing witness, different than sort of celebrating with

1519
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:29,400
Speaker 6: a TikTok video and eating, you know, a hot dog

1520
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 6: like that's that's just weird. But it's if it's all

1521
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,000
Speaker 6: about you, then I want to see that shiktok and

1522
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 6: tag me on it. Number one and I get this

1523
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:41,800
Speaker 6: one and I unfortunately have sort of gaukeed at this

1524
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:45,840
Speaker 6: place and it is the Cecil Hotel, Los Angeles. I've

1525
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:50,120
Speaker 6: been there, and that makes total sense. Their tagline for

1526
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 6: their tour is the Cecil Isn't Haunted, It's just soaked

1527
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 6: an unresolved trauma. O my word, can you get any

1528
01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:59,919
Speaker 6: more with that one?

1529
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 4: Gross?

1530
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 6: What that is? That was infamous for the Elisa and

1531
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 6: Lamb mysterious deaths where she was found in the water

1532
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 6: tower and Richard Ramirez stayed there on multiple sides and

1533
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 6: Murderers and Netflix's documentary.

1534
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 5: Thank you so much you can you always provide such

1535
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 5: interesting insight. And as a reminder, tickets are available right

1536
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 5: now for La Comic Con and you can follow Doron

1537
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 5: and the socials at doron oh fear Cast.

1538
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,640
Speaker 2: And as a reminder, if you've missed any part of

1539
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 2: the show, you can always catch us on the podcast.

1540
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:32,519
Speaker 4: And we want to hear from.

1541
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,360
Speaker 2: You so also hit us up on our socials at

1542
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:38,679
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight Show on TikTok and Instagram and True

1543
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:43,679
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight on Facebook. How lucky were we to have both?

1544
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 2: Lenora Claire, I mean, I piniss extraordinaire. And you know,

1545
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:55,480
Speaker 2: just as a stalking victim turned someone who has helped legislation,

1546
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:00,080
Speaker 2: legislation and you know, is changing, changing live.

1547
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 5: And helping people. And she's helping so many people. God

1548
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:04,599
Speaker 5: bless her, that's right.

1549
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 2: And then of course always it's always a good night

1550
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:12,960
Speaker 2: when Ron oh fear mister love it, you know, pop

1551
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:14,840
Speaker 2: culture expert himself.

1552
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:18,519
Speaker 5: Speaking of pop culture and funness. Let's get let's get

1553
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 5: a talk back, let's do it.

1554
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,000
Speaker 10: Good evening, ladies.

1555
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 5: It's in different Canada colure.

1556
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 10: In regards to criminals changing their legal names, Carla Hamoka

1557
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:32,000
Speaker 10: changed her name and also Paul Bernardo his actual his

1558
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,840
Speaker 10: legal legal name that he was the time of sentences

1559
01:20:36,160 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 10: was Paul Teal. So it's more common than people would think.

1560
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 5: Have a good night. Caveat to that Paul changed his

1561
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:47,920
Speaker 5: name prior to him being arrested, like right before he

1562
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,599
Speaker 5: got arrested, he changed his name, and Carla's name change

1563
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 5: was rejected by the court, so she actually wasn't able to,

1564
01:20:57,080 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 5: but not for what you think. Why So in order

1565
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 5: to change your name, you have to be public about it,

1566
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 5: like the public has to be aware, like you you know,

1567
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:08,879
Speaker 5: you can't you can't do this under the under secrecy.

1568
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:12,479
Speaker 5: So it has to you have to be trackable. The

1569
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,960
Speaker 5: public has to know that you've done this. And Carla

1570
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 5: tried to change her name through her lawyer and do

1571
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,479
Speaker 5: it like have him submit all the paperwork and him

1572
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 5: like hide everything. So it was rejected. And this was

1573
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:26,600
Speaker 5: in two thousand and six, I think two thousand so

1574
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 5: hers was totally rejected. She was going to change it

1575
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 5: to I have to I have to look it up.

1576
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:33,439
Speaker 5: I don't remember, but it was a completely different name,

1577
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 5: Emily Emily I believe.

1578
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 2: Wow, we don't have any such thing in the US, right.

1579
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, if you change your name here in the US,

1580
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 5: you're supposed to publicize it in the newspaper. Now, I

1581
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:46,880
Speaker 5: think that might be changing because of dead naming, and

1582
01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:49,760
Speaker 5: that goes to people you know, who you know are

1583
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:52,200
Speaker 5: assigned a specific gender at birth and are you know,

1584
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 5: changing to who you know they feel they are. I

1585
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 5: think that might be changing. But as far as I know,

1586
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,720
Speaker 5: it's still accurate. I could be wrong about that, but

1587
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 5: if you let us know.

1588
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 2: Well not for nothing, but everyone I know who's been

1589
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:10,439
Speaker 2: married and changed their name, they weren't publicizing that in

1590
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 2: the newspaper.

1591
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 5: That's not the same thing. That's why not. Because you're

1592
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 5: not legally changing your name to something completely different, like

1593
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 5: you're just adopting a second last name or a different

1594
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:23,120
Speaker 5: last name. You're not changing. I'm not changing my name

1595
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 5: from body to Deanna Thompson to body moving.

1596
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 4: Okay, you know what I mean.

1597
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:29,360
Speaker 5: It's not like a completely different name.

1598
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:30,120
Speaker 4: Got it.

1599
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, that's a distinction, because I was I was

1600
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:36,760
Speaker 2: going to say, well interesting, Cynthia Man, you always you

1601
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 2: always bring the thoughtful conversation points, so thank you and

1602
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 2: always you know in our heads.

1603
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 5: No, no, I want to know from Cynthia. Next time

1604
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 5: you call us, how do you listen? Because you always

1605
01:22:48,680 --> 01:22:53,120
Speaker 5: call at really great times and we know you're in

1606
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:54,920
Speaker 5: Canada and I'm just nosy. I want to know how

1607
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 5: you listen. Let me know, give me a yeah, yeah,

1608
01:22:59,000 --> 01:22:59,519
Speaker 5: please do it.

1609
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 2: And also, Heather, thank you for letting us know your

1610
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 2: vacation plans and we for sure want to hear what's up,

1611
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:11,519
Speaker 2: so let us no body wants to live vicariously, but

1612
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 2: pretend that she didn't that I listen. It has been

1613
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 2: a great evening, body, I'm always so thrilled to spend

1614
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:23,000
Speaker 2: it with you. And yeah, everyone be safe. We'll be

1615
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 2: back tomorrow night. And thanks for listening to True Crime tonight.

1616
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 5: See you later.