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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from house

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: de Bliey Chocolate Boarding and I'm Fair Dowdy and we've

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Speaker 1: covered several gangster and gangster related crimes on this podcast

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Speaker 1: by now Campone Dillinger. The St. Valentine's Day Massacre, and

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Speaker 1: these stories of the gangster air in the US for

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Speaker 1: the most part, with maybe the exception of Bonnie and Clyde,

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Speaker 1: tend to be very macho, very guy centric. The women involved,

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Speaker 1: usually wives, girlfriends, tend to take on secondary roles in

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Speaker 1: the stories, for example the Blonde Alibi and the St.

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Speaker 1: Valentine's Day Massacre. But there was one different sort of

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Speaker 1: female criminal who came to the forefront during this period

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Speaker 1: and really captured the imaginations of the American public and

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Speaker 1: even of law enforcement officials, and that was Mob Barker. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've probably heard her name, Barker. We've fed by some

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Speaker 1: who have been the leader of the Barker Gang, also

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Speaker 1: known as the Barker Carpus Gang, whose members have been

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Speaker 1: called quote the unsung villains of Depression era crime. J

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Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover, who he always pops up in these gangs

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Speaker 1: for episodes too. He called the Barker Gang the quote

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Speaker 1: brainiest and most dangerous gang of the War on crime.

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Speaker 1: So if he has the high opinion of you, then

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Speaker 1: you're probably pretty tough stuff. Well we'll see about that.

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Speaker 1: But even though the Barkers aren't as famous as Capons

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Speaker 1: or Dillinger's gangs today, in the nine thirties, they caused

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Speaker 1: quite the stir, setting off a crime spree that put

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Speaker 1: them and their mother at the top of Hoover's to

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Speaker 1: catch list. Hoover himself painted a really intimidating picture of

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Speaker 1: Mob Barker. He said of her, quote the most vicious,

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Speaker 1: dangerous and resourceful criminal brand this country has produced in

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Speaker 1: many years belonged to a person called Mother Barker. In

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Speaker 1: her sixty years or so, this woman reared a spawn

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Speaker 1: of hell. To her, her sons looked for guidance for

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Speaker 1: daring and resourcefulness. They obeyed her implicitly. I really hope

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Speaker 1: there's a book out there that titled something like Barker

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Speaker 1: Boys Bawn of Hell. But other people, other people besides

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Speaker 1: jig Or Hoover, paint a very different picture of Mob Barker,

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Speaker 1: one of a daughtering old mom who couldn't plan a crime,

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Speaker 1: as she even tried one gangster for instance, Harvey Bailey

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Speaker 1: actually said the old woman couldn't plan breakfast. So there

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Speaker 1: you go. Vastly different opinions on this one woman. So

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Speaker 1: how did she get this reputation as a criminal mastermind

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Speaker 1: and why did she get the reputation and what was

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Speaker 1: her actual involvement in her son's escapades. Was she really

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Speaker 1: planning this or was she just attempting to cook them

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Speaker 1: breakfast and doing so unsuccessfully. We're going to take a

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Speaker 1: look into all of that in this episode. Yeah, But

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Speaker 1: first we're going to take a look at who mob

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Speaker 1: Barker was before she was a mom to anyone. She

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Speaker 1: was born Arizona of Donnie Clark to Scottish Irish parents

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Speaker 1: in Ashgrove, Missouri, in eighteen seventy two, and she started

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Speaker 1: calling herself Kate pretty early on. It was the same

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Speaker 1: area of southwest Missouri that the famous outlaws Frank and

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Speaker 1: Jesse James were from, and she said to have grown

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Speaker 1: up kind of idolizing them, looking on Jesse James as

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Speaker 1: a sort of robin Hood like folk hero. She saw

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Speaker 1: James in person once riding by when she was just

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Speaker 1: a kid, and it made this big impression on her.

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Speaker 1: She actually cried when he was killed in eighteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: So she grew up really looking up to outlaw life,

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Speaker 1: and she grew up pretty tough herself, although according to

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Speaker 1: William B. Brower's book j Edgar Hoover and His g Men,

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Speaker 1: she was also a devout churchgoer and was known to

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Speaker 1: say Praise the Lord at meal times. She also sang

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Speaker 1: in church and played the fiddle. So when she was

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Speaker 1: about twenty years old in eighteen ninety two, Kate married

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Speaker 1: George Barker, who was a poor farm worker from Missouri

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Speaker 1: and by all accounts a very mile old mannered sort

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Speaker 1: of guy. He seemed just fine with the status quo.

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Speaker 1: He felt resigned to the fact that he would be

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Speaker 1: a poor working man um. So Kate kind of ran

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Speaker 1: all over him, and according to Breyer, she basically wore

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Speaker 1: the pants in the relationship. But early on the couple

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Speaker 1: defended to settle in Aurora, Missouri, and it wasn't too

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Speaker 1: long before they started having kids. They had four boys

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. Herman was born in eighteen nine, Lloyd was

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Speaker 1: born in eighteen ninety. Arthur or Doc came along in

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Speaker 1: eight and Fred, the youngest, showed up in nineteen o two,

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Speaker 1: and when the two oldest boys were still young, Kate

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Speaker 1: and George moved the family to the mining town of

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Speaker 1: Webb City, Missouri, where George took a job in the

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Speaker 1: Minds and Kate pretty much had her hands full of

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Speaker 1: raising the boys, who were a rowdy bunch right from

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Speaker 1: the start. She would haul them into church every Sunday,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't really seem to make an impression on

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Speaker 1: them at all. The Barker boys started dabbling in minor

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Speaker 1: offenses like petty theft and vandalizing property by their early teens.

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Speaker 1: By the time they were in their late teens, pretty

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Speaker 1: much all of them had gotten into trouble with the

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Speaker 1: law in one way or another. But instead of disciplining

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Speaker 1: them and trying to keep them in line, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you might imagine a parent just trying to come in

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Speaker 1: with a firm hand and put a stop to this,

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Speaker 1: And you would think that as a church going mother,

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Speaker 1: especially Kate would put the fear of God in exactly,

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Speaker 1: But she actually defended her boys to the hilt when

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Speaker 1: they got into trouble. She'd basically bully the authorities or

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Speaker 1: cry and plead with them into letting her sons go.

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Speaker 1: She acted as if her kids were being unfairly picked

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Speaker 1: on by the law, and she was devoted to them,

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Speaker 1: and it was as if they could do no wrong

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Speaker 1: in a way in her eyes. Yeah, But eventually the

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Speaker 1: boys had so much heat on them in the Web

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Speaker 1: City area, Kate decided that it was time for the

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Speaker 1: whole family to move. Usually this happens if there's better

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Speaker 1: opportunities for a family, but they needed to get out

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Speaker 1: of town, so they all moved to Tula, Oklahoma around

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Speaker 1: nineteen ten, and things didn't exactly calm down for the

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Speaker 1: Barkers once they reached their new town either. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Kate seemed to do everything she could to encourage her

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Speaker 1: boy's lawless habit, so it wasn't just she wasn't trying

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Speaker 1: to make them stop, make them improve their behavior. She

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Speaker 1: seemed to be egging them on. And they moved into

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Speaker 1: this old rundown house in Tulsa, and Kate set it

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Speaker 1: up as a kind of safe house or what was

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Speaker 1: called a kind of a cooling off service for criminals.

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Speaker 1: So any gangster, anyone who had been who had had

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Speaker 1: the cops on their trail who needed a place to

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Speaker 1: hide out could pay a fee and stay at the

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Speaker 1: Barkers for a while. So this way the boys and

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Speaker 1: their mom got exposure to real criminal minds who were

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Speaker 1: making real money, the kind of money that far exceeded

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Speaker 1: what they could bring in with the small, small time

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Speaker 1: crime that they were doing in their early years. So

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Speaker 1: just a side note here, the Barker Boys didn't really

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Speaker 1: appear to have the stature of intimidating criminals a warding

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Speaker 1: to Breyer, they were all about five ft three five

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Speaker 1: ft four and they weighed in between one dred nineteen

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Speaker 1: and one pounds. But what they lacked in their build

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Speaker 1: they made up for in attitude. They seemed to be ruthless,

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Speaker 1: and they were said to have never hesitated to pull

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Speaker 1: the trigger. Eventually, though, I mean that ruthlessness brewing, the

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Speaker 1: Barker Boys started to branch out on their own, so

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Speaker 1: according to Public Enemies, America's greatest crime wave and the

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Speaker 1: birth of the FBI by Brian Burrow, Herman, who remember

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Speaker 1: was the eldest brother, became a stick up man and

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Speaker 1: started robbing stores around the American West, and Lloyd also

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Speaker 1: eventually became involved in robberies in their teen years. The

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Speaker 1: two younger boys, Doc and Fred also got involved in

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Speaker 1: in some more serious crimes, something called the Central Park Gang,

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Speaker 1: which was basically a group of teenage burglars and car

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Speaker 1: thieves who would hang out in the park during the

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Speaker 1: day commit crimes at night. And according to Burrows's book,

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Speaker 1: several Central Park Gang members would do stints in the

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Speaker 1: Barker Carpus Gang later in life, so these were early

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Speaker 1: criminal contacts they were making. Just another little side note here.

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Speaker 1: Later the FBI also portrayed this Central Park Gang as

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Speaker 1: a kind of quote school of crime, which had Mob

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Speaker 1: Barker as the teacher, but Burrows says that there really

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Speaker 1: isn't any evidence to support this idea. It's another good

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Speaker 1: possible book title, though it is. What is clear, though,

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Speaker 1: is that the deeper her son's got into the crime world,

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Speaker 1: the less Kate Barker was able to protect them, just

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Speaker 1: by badgering police officers. As a result, she saw some

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Speaker 1: really hard times in the nineteen twenties. For example, in

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Speaker 1: nine Lloyd was arrested and sentenced to twenty five years

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Speaker 1: and eleven worth prison for robbing a postal truck. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen two, Doc was arrested when he shot a night

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Speaker 1: watchman during a robbery in Oklahoma. He got a life

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Speaker 1: sentence in the Oklahoma State Prison, fred In the meantime

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Speaker 1: up five to ten in Kansas State Prison for shooting

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Speaker 1: an officer while he was trying to steal a car.

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Speaker 1: And then the biggest blow happened. In nineteen Herman was

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Speaker 1: involved in a series of bank robberies in Oklahoma, Missouri,

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Speaker 1: and Texas, and when the cops finally caught up with

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Speaker 1: him in Kansas that August, there was a big shootout.

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Speaker 1: Herman was killed, and according to the account in Mike

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Speaker 1: Mayo's American Murder, the official story was that Herman had

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Speaker 1: killed an officer and then killed himself to avoid being arrested.

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Speaker 1: But Ma Barker just refused to believe the story. She

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Speaker 1: said that her sons would never commit suicide, um sticking

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Speaker 1: up for him right to the end again. According to

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Speaker 1: an article and Outlaws, Mobsters and Crooks, Hoover later pinpointed

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Speaker 1: Herman's death as a kind of turning point for Kate Barker,

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Speaker 1: saying that it changed her quote from an animal mother

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Speaker 1: of the she wolf type to a veritable beast of prey,

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Speaker 1: So this would have been her motivation, um if he

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Speaker 1: used to believed for becoming the violent, no holds barred

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Speaker 1: criminal that the FBI later made her out to be.

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Speaker 1: But the other images and descriptions of mob Barker portray

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Speaker 1: her in a really different light as someone who liked

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Speaker 1: to do jigsaw puzzles and listen to Amos and Andy

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Speaker 1: and knit and cook a biscuits for her son to

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Speaker 1: enjoy when they were home from their jobs. And she

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Speaker 1: certainly didn't look the part of a devious, cold blooded

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Speaker 1: criminal mastermind. I don't know, you might want to google

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Speaker 1: some pictures of her or something, But Burrow's book describes

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Speaker 1: her as a short and plump person with stringy black hair,

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Speaker 1: and the public who read about her and her boys,

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Speaker 1: they seemed to really perceive her as a mother who

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Speaker 1: was blinded by love. Essentially, people thought her feelings for

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Speaker 1: them just clouded her judgment. Yeah, I mean, people could

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Speaker 1: clearly be persuaded with those kind of feelings. That's how

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Speaker 1: the body and Clyde myth got so big. Um, much

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Speaker 1: like she did when they were younger. Mob Barker is

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Speaker 1: said to have continued to pest her prosecutors than others

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Speaker 1: about releasing her sons while they were locked up, even

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Speaker 1: though they were all due being some pretty serious time

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Speaker 1: at this point. Some sources even suggest that she may

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Speaker 1: have bought her favorite son, Freddie's freedom in the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, but regardless of how it exactly happened, whether

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Speaker 1: his mom took care of business or not, Fred was

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Speaker 1: released from prison in nineteen thirty one, and while he

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Speaker 1: had been on the inside, he had gotten to to

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Speaker 1: meet some new contacts and had met another inmate named

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Speaker 1: Alvin Carpass. And Carpass had also been mixed up in

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Speaker 1: crime since his teen years and had gotten his sentence

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Speaker 1: reduced while working in a coal mine while he was

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Speaker 1: incarcerated and mining a certain amount of coal. So he

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Speaker 1: and Fred wound up being released the very same year.

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Speaker 1: So free at last, Fred and Carpass met up at

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Speaker 1: Mob Barker's home in Tulsa. Mob by this point had

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Speaker 1: left George Barker. They hadn't really ever meshed, They hadn't

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Speaker 1: gotten along for years, and she left him in about

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Speaker 1: nineteen six and she already had a new boyfriend, Arthur Dunlop,

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Speaker 1: So I guess her short plumpness didn't work against her

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Speaker 1: at that time, and monto to Carpas, Fred's friend. Almost

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Speaker 1: immediately they became pretty tight, and Carpus was almost like

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Speaker 1: where he became almost like an adopted son to her.

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Speaker 1: According to Burrow, Fred even said at one point that

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Speaker 1: she preferred Carpas to her own boys. He said, quote,

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Speaker 1: you don't get on her nerves the way I do

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Speaker 1: to Carpas. So Carpas and Fred soon started pulling off

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Speaker 1: a series of robberies around Tulsa. Apparently Fred did not

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Speaker 1: mind that his mother preferred this other guy to him,

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Speaker 1: but they didn't. Their crimes didn't exactly go undetected. They

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Speaker 1: were arrested and they had to escape, so they grabbed

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Speaker 1: them on Alfred and they moved them initially to southern Missouri,

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Speaker 1: where Fred and Carpas soon started robbing banks. And robbing

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Speaker 1: banks was lucrative, but again it didn't exactly keep them

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Speaker 1: out of the limelight. So it wasn't long before Fred

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Speaker 1: and Carpass started to feel the heat on them in

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Speaker 1: Missouri too, so they decided to move again. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these Marker boys have been moving around their whole life.

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Speaker 1: They moved at the end of nineteen thirty one beginning

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Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty two, this time to St. Paul, Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: which was known at the time it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: refuge for criminals. The police force there was corrupt, so

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Speaker 1: criminals who lived there could work within an established system

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Speaker 1: as long as you so as long as you follow

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Speaker 1: the rules, you could get away with crime. And bro

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Speaker 1: said it was the quote crime capital of the Midwest

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Speaker 1: at the time. So you got there, you'd check in

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Speaker 1: with a guy named Harry Sawyer who owned a club

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Speaker 1: called the Green Lantern, which was sort of the headquarters

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Speaker 1: of criminal activity in St. Paul. And then Sawyer would

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Speaker 1: organize all the criminal activities in the area. And of

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Speaker 1: course Fred and Carpus went to visit him early on,

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Speaker 1: and he introduced them to other criminals, set them up

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Speaker 1: with a potential gang members exactly in jobs. With St.

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Speaker 1: Paul is their home base. Fred and Carpas pulled off

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Speaker 1: several bank robberies and they made off with quite a

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Speaker 1: bit of cash, enough for Fred to bribe his brother

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Speaker 1: Doc's way out of prison so that Dot could join

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Speaker 1: the gang. There were other gang members, of course, but

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Speaker 1: it was a bit of a rotating cast, and you know,

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Speaker 1: throughout this time included people like Francis Keating, Frank Nash,

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Speaker 1: and Harvey Bailey, who we mentioned in the intro to

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Speaker 1: this episode. So, during this crime spree of theirs, Ma's

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Speaker 1: boyfriend Dunlop turned up dead on the shores of a

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Speaker 1: lake outside of town. What happened here is that Fred

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Speaker 1: and Carpas had suspected him of leaking tails of their

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Speaker 1: various escapades to their Saint Paul landlady's son who used

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Speaker 1: to drink with Dunlop on occasion, and ended up calling

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Speaker 1: local detectives on them. They got away, but Dunlop wasn't

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Speaker 1: so lucky. Fred and Carpas either had him killed by

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Speaker 1: an accomplice or killed him themselves. And don't you have

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Speaker 1: to wonder a little bit about what mob Barker thought

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Speaker 1: of this? You know, she stuck with him, so I

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Speaker 1: have to think that maybe she wasn't as into old

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Speaker 1: Alfred Dunlaw after all. Seed um. So after this murder,

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Speaker 1: after these robberies, they relocated to Kansas City and continued

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Speaker 1: robbing banks. But eventually they had enough close scrapes with

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Speaker 1: the cops and with bullets, of course, that they decided

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Speaker 1: kidnapping might be a safer line of work to get

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Speaker 1: into the bank robbery, so they pulled off to fairly

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Speaker 1: high profile kidnappings. The first one was in nineteen thirty three,

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Speaker 1: they kidnapped William Ham, who was the chairman of Minneapolis's

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Speaker 1: largest brewery, ended up getting a hundred thousand dollars in

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Speaker 1: ransom for his kidnapping. And then six months later, in

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Speaker 1: early nineteen thirty four, they kidnapped the Minneapolis banker Edward G. Bremer,

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Speaker 1: and they got twice the amount they had gotten for him,

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Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars. And they weren't suspected of these

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Speaker 1: crimes at first, so best of all for them, since

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Speaker 1: they're always used to the cops following them around. They

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Speaker 1: weren't suspects, but one of their accomplices on both of

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Speaker 1: the kidnappings, a Chicago gangster named George Ziegler, who had

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Speaker 1: worked in the past for al Capone, ended up ended

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Speaker 1: up talking. He told some of his friends about what

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Speaker 1: they'd done, and they decided he was a threat, and

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Speaker 1: Fred and Carpas had Ziegler murdered. Bethbi searched Ziegler's body afterwards, though,

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Speaker 1: and they apparently found some leads, which meant bad news

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Speaker 1: for the Barker Carpass gang. After the Bremer kidnapping, Carpus

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Speaker 1: and the Barkers had split up and they had actually

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Speaker 1: left St. Paul. According to an article by Jane Galvin

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Speaker 1: in American History, Carpus hit out with his pregnant girl

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Speaker 1: friend in northern Florida and in Cuba, kind of moving

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Speaker 1: around a little bit, but Fred and Mob Barker stayed

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Speaker 1: in central Florida. So even though as Sarah mentioned, they

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Speaker 1: hadn't initially been accused of the kidnappings, the Barkers and

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Speaker 1: Carpas were well known enough. They had just gotten into

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Speaker 1: so many runnings with the law, had gotten into so

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Speaker 1: many shootouts that laying low for them was really very necessary.

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Speaker 1: Hoover had coined the label quote public Enemy number one,

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Speaker 1: which we've mentioned on this podcast before a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: He coined that term in ninety three, and Carpas was

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Speaker 1: one of them. He was the one of the first

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Speaker 1: four gangster to earn that moniker, along with Dillinger and

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Speaker 1: baby Face Nelson, So they were really keeping a close

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Speaker 1: eye on him and taking him very seriously. So things

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Speaker 1: started to break down in January of nine thirty five,

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Speaker 1: when the authorities caught up with Doc Barker, he was

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Speaker 1: actually captured by the famous g man Melvin Purvis, who

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Speaker 1: we also mentioned previously in a different episode. Doc had

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Speaker 1: a map of Florida in his apartment with o'calla circles,

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Speaker 1: so the FBI figured that's where Mom and Fred were.

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Speaker 1: So with that very obvious clue, by January nineteenth, agents

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Speaker 1: had the house surrounded and demanded the surrender of of

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Speaker 1: Mom and her son, and then machine gun fire started

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Speaker 1: to come from the house, so the FBI of course

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Speaker 1: answered with more machine gun fire plus tear gas plus

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Speaker 1: rifle fire, and according to Mayo's account, the fight lasted

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Speaker 1: anywhere between forty five minutes and four hours, depending on

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Speaker 1: what source you're looking at. But when it was finally over,

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Speaker 1: Fred and Ma were both dead, and according to the

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Speaker 1: FBI's report at the time, Mall was even still collecting

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Speaker 1: her Tommy gun when they were found inside the house.

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Speaker 1: Doc ended up being sentenced to life in Alcatraz, and

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Speaker 1: he died trying to escape from there. Four years later,

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Speaker 1: the FBI, actually led by Hoover himself, finally caught up

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Speaker 1: with Carpas in New Orleans in May of nineteen thirty six.

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Speaker 1: They caught Carpass off guard, But the FBI was kind

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Speaker 1: of caught off guard in this situation as well. They

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Speaker 1: weren't quite finished setting up to catch Carpas before he

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Speaker 1: came out, so when he showed up, they had to

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Speaker 1: use an agent's neck tie to handcuff him because they

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Speaker 1: couldn't find any handcuffs, like right off the bat. But

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Speaker 1: he surrendered peacefully and actually was the first Public Enemy

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Speaker 1: Number one to be taken alive. He was also sentenced

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Speaker 1: to life in Alcatraz, and when Alcatraz closed in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, he got transferred to Tacoma, Washington. He ended

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Speaker 1: up dying in nineteen seventy nine from an overdose of

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Speaker 1: sleeping pills. Alright, so we've covered the fates of the

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Speaker 1: gang members, But where did mab Barker get this reputation

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Speaker 1: as the mastermind of her son's crimes? Because if you noticed,

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Speaker 1: in this entire discussion so far, we never really mentioned

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Speaker 1: her participating in any of the crimes planning them out.

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Speaker 1: She merely seemed to encourage her sons in in the

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Speaker 1: criminal direction and certainly routed the benefits from what they stole,

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Speaker 1: and advocated for them when they were in trouble, but

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Speaker 1: didn't seem to actually be out there with the tommy

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Speaker 1: gun herself. She was known to do a few sort

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Speaker 1: of small errand type things for the gang, like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: when Ziegler was killed, she visited his widow to get

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Speaker 1: her to turnover Ziegler's share of the money from the

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Speaker 1: kidnapping escapades. But there's no evidence she actually participated in

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Speaker 1: the Barker gang's crimes. So many people think that the

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Speaker 1: FBI Hoover in particular, perpetuated this myth of Mab Barker

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Speaker 1: as the leader of the gang, that diabolical and violent

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Speaker 1: criminal that we described in the intro to the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and he did this simply to justify the fact that

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Speaker 1: they had killed us sixty three or so year old lady.

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Speaker 1: In his book, in fact, Borrow refers to her as

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Speaker 1: quote an FBI sponsored myth. Regardless, today, even the FBI

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00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 1: seems to believe that this image of mob Barker is

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Speaker 1: a myth. So it's a lot more likely that Fred

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Speaker 1: and Carpass were the real leaders of the gang. And

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Speaker 1: then many people even think Carpass was really the brains

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Speaker 1: behind the operation. Well we know it wasn't don now,

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Speaker 1: it was not Doc with his captain obvious map. But

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Speaker 1: because of that Carpas connection, and because some people think

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Speaker 1: he was the brains behind it, that's why it's often

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Speaker 1: referred to as the Barker Carpass Gang instead of just

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Speaker 1: something like the Barker Boys or the Barker Gang. Mayo

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00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 1: even called Carpus quote an experienced, an imaginative criminal, and

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Speaker 1: he was intimidating to We talked about how the Barker

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Speaker 1: Boys were mean, but they didn't necessarily seem intimidating in

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Speaker 1: a physical way. Carpass's nickname was old Creepy because he

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Speaker 1: had a very frosty personality. He had a cold, scary

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Speaker 1: expression and um the kind of guy you'd want to

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Speaker 1: stay away from. Beaty little eyes, even though Mob Barker

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Speaker 1: seemed to really loved him, which I guess that's something

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Speaker 1: about her, but yeah, I mean, if you read about

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Speaker 1: about Carpass, you'll often to see him referred to by

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Speaker 1: authors as Creepy Carpass, which is kind of a funny game.

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Speaker 1: But in his memoirs, which were published in Carpass himself

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Speaker 1: wrote quote, the most ridiculous story and the annals of

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Speaker 1: crime is that mob Barker was the mastermind behind the

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Speaker 1: Carpas Barker gang. The legend only grew up after her

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00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: death to justify why she was slaughtered by the FBI.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't a leader of criminals or even a criminal herself.

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Speaker 1: There is not one police photograph of her or set

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00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 1: of fingerprints taken while she was alive. She knew we

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Speaker 1: were criminals, but her participation in our careers was limited

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Speaker 1: to one function. When we traveled together, we moved on

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00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: as a mother and her sons. What could look more innocent?

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Speaker 1: And then he goes on to say it's no insult

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Speaker 1: to Ma's memory that she just didn't have the brains

399
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Speaker 1: or know how to direct us on a robbery. It

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have occurred to her to get involved in our business,

401
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,640
Speaker 1: and we always made a point of only discussing our

402
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: scores when Ma wasn't around. We'd leave her at home

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00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,719
Speaker 1: when we were arranging a job, or we send her

404
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Speaker 1: to a movie. Moss all lots of movies. It's pretty great.

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00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 1: I like I like this image of Ma going off

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Speaker 1: to movies, coming home working on a puzzle for a

407
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: little bitting a little bit and then go and knocking

408
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: on the widows door and think you better pay up.

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Speaker 1: You know, So you have to wonder, I mean, what

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00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 1: the exact truth was in any of these stories. It

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Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of The Bell Star episode two

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Speaker 1: about how the stories that were told about her after

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00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: her death were so vastly different from who people say

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Speaker 1: she really was. Well and again even back to Bonnie

415
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Speaker 1: and Clyde, how much did Bonnie really do so true?

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Speaker 1: So in these cases you have to wonder, is it

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Speaker 1: kind of a combination of the two? Do they meet

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00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: sort of in the middle, or is it really one

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00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: or the other characterization? So I don't know if any

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Speaker 1: of the listeners out there have any opinions on it

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Speaker 1: that they want to share, I'd be very interested in

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00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: hearing them me too. Yeah, we're at history podcast at

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Speaker 1: fevery dot com, and you guys love the gangster topics,

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00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: so I'm sure you're gonna have some opinions on mob

425
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Speaker 1: Barker and her boys and maybe some suggestions for future podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, now we've covered three of those four original

427
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: public Enemy number one, so we just maybe it is

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Speaker 1: Maybe it is or maybe it's time for the fourth

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Speaker 1: pretty boy Floyd. Oh yeah, so we could put him

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Speaker 1: in at some point too. But we actually have another

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Speaker 1: little announcement of sorts to make on this podcast. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't by accident that we picked a topic about mother

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Speaker 1: because I am actually expecting, so I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: going on maternity leave soon and we wanted to use this,

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Speaker 1: I guess is kind of a topic, which, now in retrospect,

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00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: is kind of a strange choice. Uh, to introduce that

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Speaker 1: idea some day you can tell your child that this

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Speaker 1: is how you introduced him or her to the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I'll wait to see how

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Speaker 1: he or she turns out to to mention that. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're obviously super excited about Dablina having a baby and

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Speaker 1: big congrats to you and your husband. But yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: also working on on covering episodes during her maternity leave

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Speaker 1: and keeping you guys in stock with new podcasts too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna do kind of a mix of things, which

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00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: I think will be kind of fun. It's obviously going

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00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: to be new episodes. We've been kind of working double

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00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: time or trying to to record, yes, researching like mad,

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Speaker 1: and we're also going to be kind of recapping some

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00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: older episodes, doing a few reruns that have a twist

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00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: on them. Say, some of the older episodes that have

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Speaker 1: new information has come out, you know, things that you

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Speaker 1: guys email us about and tell us and we think, oh,

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00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: that would be nice to update. Now we're finally doing

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Speaker 1: some of the those. And then we'll also have some

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00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: best of classics and those will all be handpicked though,

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00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 1: so it'll be our favorite, our favorite old episodes for

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00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: you guys to listen to again. So hopefully you'll stay

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00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: entertained over the summer. Yeah, and then we'll be back

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00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: the same as we've always been. Some new ideas, with

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Speaker 1: some new ideas, new perspective and history Baby a new

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Speaker 1: baby for Dablina. I think probably one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: things about this baby is when you told me that

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Speaker 1: it could hear. So it's been listening to the podcast

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00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: that should know something about history, and I think it

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Speaker 1: will know your voice there. Uhm. I'm interested to see

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Speaker 1: what it's like when the baby meets you. The cutest

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00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: thing ever, I'm really hoping it will it will recognize

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00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: my voice from hearing me from me and naturally long

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00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: stretches of time when we're recording, But um, I can't wait,

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00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: and I'm super happy for you guys, been excited and

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00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: thank you. We are too. So back to the podcast though,

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00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: if you guys have any ideas you want to share

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00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: with us, UM any concert learns about the upcoming maturity leave,

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00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: I hope not. Like Sarah said, I hope we'll keep

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00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: you entertained. Feel free to write us. We're at History

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00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 1: Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also on Facebook and

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00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,479
Speaker 1: we're on Twitter at in history, and we do have

479
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: some fun image galleries I believe of public enemies who

480
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: can search for that on our home page at www

481
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: dot how stiff work dot com for more on this

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00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works

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00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: dot com