WEBVTT - Stuart Stevens, Carole Cadwalladr & Deja Foxx

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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<v Speaker 1>where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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<v Speaker 1>today's best minds and Maga is melting down.

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<v Speaker 2>Over a woke Marxist American pope from Chicago. We have

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<v Speaker 2>such a great show for you today. The Lincoln Project's

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<v Speaker 2>own Stuart Steven stops by to talk about how it's

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<v Speaker 2>going in Trump's America not very well. Then we'll talk

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<v Speaker 2>to congressional candidate Dajia Fox about her run for Congress

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<v Speaker 2>and why we need gen Z energy in Congress. Plus,

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<v Speaker 2>we have a special bonus from our YouTube channel where

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<v Speaker 2>we talk to investigative journalist Carol Kyle Dwalder about how

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<v Speaker 2>AI is taking over all our lives. But first the news.

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<v Speaker 3>So, Molly, I'm going to shock you here. The guy

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<v Speaker 3>who wrote the book on deals, he only makes the

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<v Speaker 3>best deals. He's hedging again because he's not very good

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<v Speaker 3>at deals. That's the thing that happens all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really not shocking at all.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, It's funny because it's like we've been covering

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<v Speaker 2>this fucking guy for almost a decade of our lives,

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<v Speaker 2>and during that time we've all gotten a lot older.

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<v Speaker 2>My youth. I've seen my youth squandered by covering Donald Trumps.

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<v Speaker 2>So here's the deal. We're in a trade war with China.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is we cannot onshore manufacturing by making things

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<v Speaker 2>more expensive. We need to onshore manufacturing by building manufacturing

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<v Speaker 2>plants in America. I mean, the whole thing is just

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<v Speaker 2>completely dumb and poorly thought out, like so many things

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<v Speaker 2>in Trump world. Now Trump is starting to see you'll

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<v Speaker 2>remember Peter Navarro ninety deals in ninety days. So we

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<v Speaker 2>have one deal so far, and it's with Britain, which

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<v Speaker 2>is like our seventh or eighth biggest trading partner, which

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<v Speaker 2>is very nice, but it is also a country where

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<v Speaker 2>we actually buy more from them than they from us.

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<v Speaker 2>So whatever. Anyway, the point of this whole thing is

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<v Speaker 2>that he's starting to feel the walls close in, and

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<v Speaker 2>as the walls close in, he realizes that, in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>he really does need to deal with China. Ergo, he

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<v Speaker 2>is suggesting cutting the tariffs already, which is, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>a sign of weakness. And I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 2>know this about Xijingping, but I think he's going to

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<v Speaker 2>end up winning the trade war. I think like signs

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<v Speaker 2>of weakness before negotiating. Makes me think that one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and forty five percent levy, which is going to go

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<v Speaker 2>to eighty percent, will ultimately go down to a lot less.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're in a trade war and we're already losing

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<v Speaker 2>and it hasn't even really started. This is a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good sign that Trump is rethinking the what's going on

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<v Speaker 2>and good except the only thing is that, as we've

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<v Speaker 2>seen from port traffic, there's going to be a shock

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<v Speaker 2>here and it's going to be inflationary, and just coming

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<v Speaker 2>back from it is probably going to put us in

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<v Speaker 2>a recession. So stagflation for everyone.

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<v Speaker 3>Great. So, Molly, we have a reoccurring character on this show,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly our old show. We'd have to talk about this

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<v Speaker 3>one all the time. We've named we've nicknamed her Judge

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<v Speaker 3>Box of Wine now that.

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<v Speaker 2>Is from season one.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, the wine, you know, can be spelled two different ways.

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<v Speaker 3>We're gonna go out record and say it's w h

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<v Speaker 3>I an E because we don't want to cast any

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<v Speaker 3>aspersions on our Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, as a sober alcoholic, it's a self diagnosed disease.

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<v Speaker 2>And far be it from me to diagnose almost every

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<v Speaker 2>person in this administration with a drinking problem. We would

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<v Speaker 2>never do that. It's not every person, it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>few prominent.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, there's just just a few who display strong,

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<v Speaker 3>strong signs. Anyway, So miss Piro to say that the

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<v Speaker 3>people who have worked with her in the past have

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<v Speaker 3>bad things to say about her whole leadership style is

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<v Speaker 3>a rastic, drastic understatement. But mister Trump's like, now she

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<v Speaker 3>should be the interim DC attorney.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, judge, box of wine going to US attorney in

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<v Speaker 2>Washington is great for any number of reasons. One the

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<v Speaker 2>Ed Martin pushback worked, Okay, all that had to happen

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<v Speaker 2>was vulnerable North Carolina Republican Tom Tillis had to say,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure about this. And by the way, RFK

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<v Speaker 2>is right now fucking up every kind of thing he

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<v Speaker 2>possibly can with the health stuff. It's a complete and

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<v Speaker 2>utter disaster. And so I want to point out how

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<v Speaker 2>easy it would have been just to torpedo that nomination

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<v Speaker 2>had Republicans just had a tiny bit of a spine. Instead,

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<v Speaker 2>we have children dying of measles. Okay, So just want

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<v Speaker 2>to point this out when we look at this story,

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<v Speaker 2>which is these incredibly cowardly Republicans could have punted on

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<v Speaker 2>the RFK junior nomination and children who have died of

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<v Speaker 2>measles would be alive today. Okay, So I want you

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<v Speaker 2>to put that in your PA. That's you know that

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<v Speaker 2>there are a number of Republican senators, maybe all of them,

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<v Speaker 2>with the exception of Cindy Hyde Smith who know and

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<v Speaker 2>Tommy Tuberville, who know better than having RFK in that job.

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<v Speaker 2>And they did it anyway because they didn't want a headache,

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<v Speaker 2>and because they took this job because they're lazy and

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<v Speaker 2>not good in anything. So the point of this story

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<v Speaker 2>is we're going to have Judge box of Wine as

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<v Speaker 2>the interim US Attorney in Washington. It's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>destructive and fucked up, but also, as with so many

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<v Speaker 2>things in the Trump administration, inadvertently hilarious. So we will

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<v Speaker 2>try to grab the humor from this situation. Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we will laugh to keep from crying. We will delight

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<v Speaker 2>in the stupidity, but we will also know that this

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<v Speaker 2>is not how any of this is supposed to happen,

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<v Speaker 2>and that this is degrading our great democracy. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>he puts in these very loud and competent people and

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<v Speaker 2>thank God for that.

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<v Speaker 3>Speaking of incompetence, we are seeing one of the most

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<v Speaker 3>major blowbacks this administration has seen so far, with Trump

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<v Speaker 3>picking Casey means for Surgeon General. Casey means for those

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<v Speaker 3>who don't know, is an RFK Junior. Lackey, particularly known

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<v Speaker 3>for as Laura Lumer, leaked this week publishing a newsletter

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<v Speaker 3>on how she manifested her husband.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, who among us has not manifested their spouse? I

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<v Speaker 2>manifest all the time For Matt Greenfield, We've gone down

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<v Speaker 2>the fucking rabbit hole here of serious fucking craziness. You

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<v Speaker 2>open the door to RFK Junior, you put him in

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<v Speaker 2>charge of your healthcare, and you're going to have things

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<v Speaker 2>like this. So she's a best selling author. Everybody likes that.

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<v Speaker 2>She's a wellness influencer. Who doesn't like that she has

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<v Speaker 2>written a book called This Surprising Connection between Metabolism and

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<v Speaker 2>Lemonless Health. Oh, we're definitely all going to die. So

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<v Speaker 2>work with our wonderful Secretary of Health and Human Services,

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<v Speaker 2>Robert F. Kennedy Junior, to ensure successful implification of ore.

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<v Speaker 2>We are so incredibly fucked. The good news is that

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<v Speaker 2>they don't like pharmaceuticals. They don't like food industry, they

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<v Speaker 2>don't like vaccines. They think the FDA is corrupt. We

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<v Speaker 2>are so incredibly fucked up.

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<v Speaker 3>I think there is good news though, that this is

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<v Speaker 3>really seeming like this is putting up the hackles of

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of people. Even rfk's old running mate is

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<v Speaker 3>really disappointed about this pick.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, but also I want to point out my favorite

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<v Speaker 2>part of this whole story is involved in this is

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<v Speaker 2>ronan On Johnson. Of course he's involved because he's a

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<v Speaker 2>fucking incredible lunatic. We should not be suppressed. Stuart Steve

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<v Speaker 2>There's a legendary campaign manager and the author of the

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<v Speaker 2>conspiracy to end America five ways my old party is

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<v Speaker 2>to driving our democracy to autocracy. Welcome to fast Politics,

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<v Speaker 2>Stewart Stevens.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks for asking me to the party.

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<v Speaker 2>So another day in Trump's America.

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<v Speaker 4>This is doing great.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going great. It's like every time we make this

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<v Speaker 2>guy president, it's a fucking disaster.

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<v Speaker 4>You know he's going to get to It's just it's

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<v Speaker 4>a bit of personally. If I stay away from Newark, it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Not we laugh to keep from crying. But talk to me,

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<v Speaker 2>they'll be around.

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<v Speaker 4>Anybody that has measles. Look, you know, I think it's

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<v Speaker 4>the sort of most disheartening thing about all this Trump

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<v Speaker 4>stuff is it's not just the Republican Party that collapsed

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<v Speaker 4>in Bennett's snee back in sixteen. The way we've seen

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<v Speaker 4>these other institutions, like so much of the legal because

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<v Speaker 4>some of the legal community do it, some of the

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<v Speaker 4>great universities like one up the street from U Columbia.

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<v Speaker 4>And I think it's just a little parable or lesson

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<v Speaker 4>in how fragile this thing we call democracy is and

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<v Speaker 4>how much it's based upon goodwill. Now there's the flip

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<v Speaker 4>side of that is you do have people fighting back.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that the twenty four election was greatly misunderstood.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, it was an election that any non incumbent

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<v Speaker 4>had a great chance to win. The approval rating of

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<v Speaker 4>Biden was at forty No candidates ever gotten two points

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<v Speaker 4>higher than incumbent party's president. The right Track was at

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<v Speaker 4>twenty seven, which is just a saggering number. No incumbent

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<v Speaker 4>parties ever won when it was below forty five, which

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<v Speaker 4>is why we see Nikki Haley. She was doing a

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<v Speaker 4>lot better than Trump. And I think that that's been

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<v Speaker 4>confused with the idea that there was some reordering of

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<v Speaker 4>our politics. No, there wasn't that there was some great

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<v Speaker 4>breakthrough the Republican Party and that it was an endorsement

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<v Speaker 4>of Trump is And I think that you know what

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<v Speaker 4>we're seeing is they knew and campaign that's Project twenty

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<v Speaker 4>twenty five was poised, and then now they're making people

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<v Speaker 4>drink it and they gotten any better. So I look

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<v Speaker 4>at the Democratic Party like this incredibly valuable company that's

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<v Speaker 4>just under bad management. It's like they were Apple and

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<v Speaker 4>they fired Steve Jobs and Rovin Scully, but the value

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<v Speaker 4>is still there, and you know, hopefully they'll be able

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<v Speaker 4>to get it together.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's let's go down that rabbit hole for a minute. First,

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<v Speaker 2>let's talk about kind of what Trump is trying to enact.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we're not getting a lot of intel

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<v Speaker 2>on this. People aren't talking about it because nobody gives

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<v Speaker 2>a shit about Congress because they made themselves so incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>irrelevant by rubbers camping everything that Trump wants to do.

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<v Speaker 2>But they are trying to pass a budget and it

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<v Speaker 2>is a fucking disaster, and they believe they're going to

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<v Speaker 2>pass it in fifteen days or something, and FYI, they

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<v Speaker 2>have not agreed on anything. The only way to pay

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<v Speaker 2>for these tax cuts is to basically close every rural

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<v Speaker 2>hospital and nursing home and politically just commit supuku discuss.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a great way to put it. Yeah, you can't

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<v Speaker 4>get there unless you were committed to deep cuts in

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<v Speaker 4>the military. They're not. That's the dirty little secret of

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<v Speaker 4>the budget. This is why we have a deficit. People

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<v Speaker 4>like the stuff that they get from the government. And

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<v Speaker 4>you know, I think the greatest irony here and this

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<v Speaker 4>is then true for a long time, but it sort

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<v Speaker 4>of gets highlighted in these moments. The states that most

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<v Speaker 4>depend upon the federal government are these poor red states

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<v Speaker 4>like my home state of Mississippi. About forty percent of

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<v Speaker 4>Mississippi state budget forty percent comes from the federal government,

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<v Speaker 4>which I really don't understand why we don't call it socialism,

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<v Speaker 4>and you make these cuts and these are the people

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<v Speaker 4>that are going to be hurt. I mean, I was

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<v Speaker 4>looking at a map that talking about closing some social

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<v Speaker 4>security offices in Misissippi. Well they aren't closing them. They're

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<v Speaker 4>not talking about it now. They are because of the

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<v Speaker 4>date when one closed first of May. I was doing

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<v Speaker 4>like a little Google Maps thing you know, you're going

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<v Speaker 4>to have to drive a lot of people one hundred

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<v Speaker 4>plus miles to get their such security office will at

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<v Speaker 4>the same time, they're cutting the backstaff that would answer

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<v Speaker 4>the phone and do all these helplines. And that's not

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<v Speaker 4>going to affect anybody who's not dependent upon Social Security.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's just it. Scott Galloway made this point, I thought,

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<v Speaker 4>really precisely as he is a way of doing this

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<v Speaker 4>is the fundamental definition of a cryptocracy. You know, you

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<v Speaker 4>have a group of people around Trump who are making

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<v Speaker 4>a lot of money and who are using the government

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<v Speaker 4>to make themselves richer while others are going to be poorer.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's it. I mean, there really is a blueprint.

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<v Speaker 4>If we sat down, as sort of a social science experiment,

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<v Speaker 4>said how do you make them America poorer? Well, we've

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<v Speaker 4>lost thrillions of dollars of wealth since Trump took office.

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<v Speaker 4>These terror servants saying, how do you make America less healthy?

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<v Speaker 4>Will you put some lunatic like RFK in charge of

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<v Speaker 4>national health? How would you make America less competitive in

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:06.120
<v Speaker 4>the world and have a darker than brighter future. You

0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 4>would cut research, You would make our educational institutions, which

0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.520
<v Speaker 4>really are the great driver or certainly one of them

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 4>of wealth in America. Why is there so much money

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 4>in Boston? Why why is Massachusetts so rich? And you

0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.120
<v Speaker 4>know what, it was a great driver in California. And

0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.800
<v Speaker 4>you're going to cut these research budgets. It's really what

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.360
<v Speaker 4>would you do if you're trying to make the world

0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.960
<v Speaker 4>more unstable and more dangerous? You would cut the greatest,

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.960
<v Speaker 4>most successful alliance in history, NATO. And you know, Republicans

0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.200
<v Speaker 4>have just gone along with it. I don't think it's

0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.160
<v Speaker 4>complicated or hard to understand, because I think it's just

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:52.320
<v Speaker 4>sheer cowardice and we should just accept that cowardice is

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.600
<v Speaker 4>probably a norm that all of us who are human

0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 4>reset too, and we should be surprised by courage.

0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Another person who said it was a cryptocracy was

0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Ken Griffin. He is the biggest Republican donor, not a

0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Trump donor, but the biggest Republican donor there is. Said

0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.760
<v Speaker 2>it's a cryptocracy. So clearly things are not going great,

0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.200
<v Speaker 2>right because for things, you know the fact that you

0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.560
<v Speaker 2>have people like this saying what the fuck are you

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 2>doing is probably a bad sign. I mean, and honestly, again,

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 2>I think you and I can agree, thank god, right,

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.040
<v Speaker 2>because if it were going great, we'd be they'd be

0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.800
<v Speaker 2>just disappearing grad students left and right, and we'd be

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.520
<v Speaker 2>really on our way to orbone it's hungary, whereas right

0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.600
<v Speaker 2>now we're sort of in a weird period where my

0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.359
<v Speaker 2>man is doing anti democratic things but also destroying the economy.

0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:44.360
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk through. I thought the incredible hail Mary

0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 2>passed yesterday, Donald Trump said he would like to tax

0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.640
<v Speaker 2>people who make over five million dollars. This is the

0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 2>only reason he got elected, as far as I can tell,

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.200
<v Speaker 2>was to protect these people's money.

0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. You know, I've never seen a poll in all

0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.040
<v Speaker 4>my life, and we used to put this on polls

0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:07.040
<v Speaker 4>where taxing people who make over even a million dollars

0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.600
<v Speaker 4>didn't test to the good and the higher you put

0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 4>that number, I mean, if you ask people, should billionaires

0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.760
<v Speaker 4>pay more in taxes, it's like a ninety five to five,

0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, I mean everybody, of course they take that,

0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.600
<v Speaker 4>of course. And I think this is Trump, in this

0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:30.520
<v Speaker 4>jumbled mess of a mind, in this jumble collection of

0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 4>weirdos and freaks that he has around him. You know,

0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.880
<v Speaker 4>it's always the last person in the room. Somebody sticks

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:38.080
<v Speaker 4>a poll in front of him and says, look, you're

0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 4>the first president well except the previous Trump administration that

0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.960
<v Speaker 4>is less popular one hundred days after you took office

0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.520
<v Speaker 4>than you were an election day, which is really interesting

0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:50.160
<v Speaker 4>to think about. You know, it's a very American thing

0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.200
<v Speaker 4>to say after I didn't vote for this person, but

0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.720
<v Speaker 4>I'll give them a chance. So you know, at this point,

0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.960
<v Speaker 4>Biden was near sixty, Obama was in the mid sixties.

0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.040
<v Speaker 4>Even Bush in after the two and four election was

0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.840
<v Speaker 4>higher than the he was an election day. Trump is lower.

0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:06.680
<v Speaker 4>So what does that mean? That means people who voted

0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.400
<v Speaker 4>for Trump are having a lot of doubts about it.

0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 4>And that's that's difficult to do this quickly. It's always

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:15.320
<v Speaker 4>difficult to get any of us to admit that we

0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.760
<v Speaker 4>made a mistake. So you've got this problem. You have

0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.360
<v Speaker 4>these congressional candidates out there who are beginning to panic.

0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.960
<v Speaker 4>I mean, they know what happened in twenty ten to Democrats,

0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.480
<v Speaker 4>they know what happened in nineteen ninety four, and they're

0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.120
<v Speaker 4>looking at this and seeing this could be a blood bat.

0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.000
<v Speaker 4>You know, we can move thirty to forty seats. What

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.640
<v Speaker 4>is it that we're supposed to campaign own, how is

0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 4>anyone's life better that's been accomplished here? So he says, oh, look,

0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 4>you know, I'm going to go out and say this,

0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 4>maybe it'll help. At the heart of it is that

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:56.600
<v Speaker 4>there's no governing philosophy to the Republican Party anymore. Knowing

0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.360
<v Speaker 4>can and good faith articulate this is a theory of

0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.280
<v Speaker 4>government and say what you will. He used to be

0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:03.920
<v Speaker 4>able to do that. You could say, well that those

0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:05.920
<v Speaker 4>are the worst ideas I've ever heard in my life. Right,

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:07.760
<v Speaker 4>A lot of people said that, you know, but you

0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 4>can have a debate between some conservative and Elizabeth Warren

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:13.480
<v Speaker 4>and it could be an interesting debate and she could

0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.600
<v Speaker 4>defend one another. But there's not now there's not a

0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.840
<v Speaker 4>center right party in America. And I think that that

0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 4>lack of any sort of coherent theory of government, a

0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.679
<v Speaker 4>purpose of government, is at the root of all this,

0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.000
<v Speaker 4>because if you don't believe in anything, if you don't

0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:31.520
<v Speaker 4>have any idea that government should work this way, it's

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.879
<v Speaker 4>just a series of these chaotic missteps, and it's just

0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 4>you end up with this mess that we have now,

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.680
<v Speaker 4>a government that is failing it its basic purposes.

0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.480
<v Speaker 2>So you don't think Trump is going to increase taxes

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.920
<v Speaker 2>for people who make over five million dollars a year.

0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:49.480
<v Speaker 4>No.

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's such a great thing for him to say,

0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.600
<v Speaker 2>because it's like, yeah, but of course he's not going

0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.000
<v Speaker 2>to do it. No. Look, so then we get to

0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.479
<v Speaker 2>the question of is it malpractice that Democrats aren't pulling

0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.640
<v Speaker 2>better when they're running against someone who is literally doing

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.640
<v Speaker 2>all the most unpopular things. So I'm going to ask you.

0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I know you're a Republican. Jesse and I both pretty lefty.

0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm right, I'm less lefty than Jesse is because I

0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.160
<v Speaker 2>come from a lot of privilege, but I'm still lefty.

0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.880
<v Speaker 2>I want you to sort of explain to us why

0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 2>you think democrats can't like it's clear there's a populism.

0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.639
<v Speaker 2>It is not so different than what Democrats want to do,

0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.199
<v Speaker 2>and yet somehow it's not working.

0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.480
<v Speaker 4>So discuss Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about this

0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.320
<v Speaker 4>a lot, and I think it's a really interesting question.

0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 4>Argument can be made, a case can be made that

0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.159
<v Speaker 4>the Democrats are still trapped in this mindset that we

0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.160
<v Speaker 4>have news cycles. When we had news cycles, you could

0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.320
<v Speaker 4>at least attempt to push a message that was unified.

0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.200
<v Speaker 4>I mean, all these campaigns we said around, we'd let's

0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.320
<v Speaker 4>have an education week now, right. I never really could

0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.439
<v Speaker 4>do it, but we could at least pretend that we

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.680
<v Speaker 4>could do it. I mean, I can't remember. In two thousand,

0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 4>when I was working on the Bush campaign, then the

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.760
<v Speaker 4>New York Times went online at midnight East Coast time.

0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.240
<v Speaker 4>You could sit there, so that was eleven o'clock in Austin.

0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.240
<v Speaker 4>You could sit there and you could look at your watch,

0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.840
<v Speaker 4>and by eleven fifteen you would be getting calls from

0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.720
<v Speaker 4>reporters that were basically using the New York Times as

0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.199
<v Speaker 4>assignment editors for what they were going to work on.

0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.480
<v Speaker 4>So we don't have that anymore. That's been shattered. They're

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.280
<v Speaker 4>no gatekeepers all of that. So what does that mean

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.240
<v Speaker 4>to me? I think it means you shouldn't If you're

0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.600
<v Speaker 4>asking yourself, is that the right thing to do to

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.159
<v Speaker 4>go out was like a Bernie an AOC campaign Or

0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.600
<v Speaker 4>should you be talking about just gas prices? That's the

0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.320
<v Speaker 4>wrong question, because you should be doing everything, because different

0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.280
<v Speaker 4>things are going to be heard by different people, because

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 4>our entire media is so fragmented. Smart you should just

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 4>flood the zone with all of these messages and I

0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.240
<v Speaker 4>think the one thing, if there's one lesson out of

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.560
<v Speaker 4>the last year in politics, it's the power of passion.

0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:04.840
<v Speaker 4>And you know, there still is this really unfortunate assumption

0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.920
<v Speaker 4>inside a lot of consulting community. I think it's worse

0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.200
<v Speaker 4>on the Democratic side because consulting community on the Republican

0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.959
<v Speaker 4>side has kind of been reduced to just following Trump.

0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.000
<v Speaker 4>You can focus group your way out of this, you

0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.480
<v Speaker 4>can test it your way out of this. And the

0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:23.159
<v Speaker 4>super Pac Future Forward that was started to support Biden

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.840
<v Speaker 4>and then went to Harris is a perfect example. I mean,

0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.159
<v Speaker 4>I think they're really smart. I think they made some

0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.679
<v Speaker 4>good ads, but they had almost a billion dollars to

0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.639
<v Speaker 4>spend and they were testing everything. They had this system,

0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:35.960
<v Speaker 4>We're going to test every ad three times. So it's

0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.800
<v Speaker 4>like it was just so clear that these transgender attacks

0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.639
<v Speaker 4>were hurting Democrats across the board because it was a

0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.359
<v Speaker 4>perfect example to sort of use as a hyperbole of

0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.199
<v Speaker 4>Wochism or whatever, and it was the easiest thing in

0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 4>the world to push back on. This was a policy

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.399
<v Speaker 4>that was adopted under Trump by his handpicked head of

0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.280
<v Speaker 4>prison and as far as anybody can figure out, only

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:04.360
<v Speaker 4>happened once, right, So you know, we made an ass

0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:06.600
<v Speaker 4>and take very long the Lincoln Project to put back

0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:08.520
<v Speaker 4>on it. Gave it to the folks at Future four

0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.919
<v Speaker 4>because super pacn coordinated. They said that we love this.

0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.360
<v Speaker 4>Like a week later it wasn't running. I was like, hey, guys,

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.000
<v Speaker 4>what's going on? They got well, he didn't test well,

0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:16.840
<v Speaker 4>and you know, I just want to say to him,

0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.399
<v Speaker 4>do you think Willie Horton tested well? Like people were like,

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:21.920
<v Speaker 4>you know, I really liked that bit about the guy

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.320
<v Speaker 4>that shot somebody in the face. No, people are never

0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.760
<v Speaker 4>going to say that, but it does work. And you

0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.840
<v Speaker 4>can use a kind of social science experiment. Every Democratic

0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.040
<v Speaker 4>Senate candidate who was attacked with this who responded on

0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.560
<v Speaker 4>camera pushing back on it one and everyone who was

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 4>attacking didn't lost. So that's a lesson in this.

0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.960
<v Speaker 2>That's how you get to a Reuben Diego Trump voter. Right.

0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.440
<v Speaker 2>What I think is so sort of lightning in a

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.640
<v Speaker 2>bottle about what Trump did was that he went everywhere

0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.040
<v Speaker 2>he promised every time he did that politics is downstream

0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.000
<v Speaker 2>of culture. He became part of the culture. He influenced

0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.200
<v Speaker 2>the politics, and it just worked. It worked so well

0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 2>that people came out, they filled out for him, They

0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:05.040
<v Speaker 2>voted for him, and then they left the bottom of

0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 2>the ticket blank in a lot of states. So that

0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.600
<v Speaker 2>is really the thesis, right A Brightbarn.

0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Look, I think this has been true and really

0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.640
<v Speaker 4>obvious since the Clinton Bush election. You know, I can

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.520
<v Speaker 4>remember as a Republican when Clinton went on our senior

0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:24.480
<v Speaker 4>hall played the saxophone and we said, well, this race

0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:27.000
<v Speaker 4>is over. No one wants to president in the United States.

0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:29.359
<v Speaker 4>Who's going to put on sunglasses and play a saxophone

0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:30.600
<v Speaker 4>on a late night showed.

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh you guys thought you'd win on that.

0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.639
<v Speaker 4>And well you were smarter. By the end of the campaign,

0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 4>Bush would have played a banjo in his underwear someplace,

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.520
<v Speaker 4>you know, because they realized it was working. So I

0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.239
<v Speaker 4>think this has been apparent to people. And you know,

0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:47.639
<v Speaker 4>in two thousand at the Lincoln Project, when we started

0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:49.879
<v Speaker 4>a podcast, we had a lot of friends and support

0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:52.040
<v Speaker 4>us going like, Gus, what are you doing starting a podcast?

0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:55.520
<v Speaker 4>We started a streaming show because we saw this that

0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.000
<v Speaker 4>you had to communicate in these different ways, and now

0:22:58.040 --> 0:22:59.880
<v Speaker 4>you have twenty four people go it was the podcast

0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.359
<v Speaker 4>literally wasn't the caest election, but you know, it just

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:08.040
<v Speaker 4>shows the difference that has occurred here. But look, the

0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:12.280
<v Speaker 4>thing that frustrates me most about the Democratic Party is

0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:17.680
<v Speaker 4>a lack of swagger, a lack of affirmative assertion. We're

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:22.120
<v Speaker 4>right there wrong And I hate this stuff. I read

0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:23.760
<v Speaker 4>like we're going to go out and have these listening

0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:25.800
<v Speaker 4>tours and try to figure out what we did wrong.

0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:28.119
<v Speaker 4>I don't know. I mean, if you do that stuff,

0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 4>I wouldn't talk about it. And they're talking about it

0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 4>because they think that they have to do a certain pendance. Bosses,

0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.679
<v Speaker 4>our donors are mad. But look, we're going to go

0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.480
<v Speaker 4>through this. You have to. I mean, nobody ever wins

0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:43.400
<v Speaker 4>the super Bowl if you walk out and think maybe

0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:45.600
<v Speaker 4>we have a chance. I mean you have to believe

0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:47.919
<v Speaker 4>in a start that you're going to win and that

0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.000
<v Speaker 4>you're right. And they need to use a language here

0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:56.680
<v Speaker 4>that is accusatory and broad sweeping. Trump is a crook.

0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:59.399
<v Speaker 4>It is the most corrupt administration by far in history.

0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.960
<v Speaker 4>Trump is portraying the greatest generation of what he's doing

0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:08.440
<v Speaker 4>in Ukraine and the way he's trying to demand basically

0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:12.439
<v Speaker 4>a protection racket with Ukraine. I mean, it's disgusting. You

0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:15.439
<v Speaker 4>need to say these things. Don't be afraid of going

0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:18.919
<v Speaker 4>too far, and I think that element is inside the

0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:22.800
<v Speaker 4>Democratic Party, and I think it really is not so

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.720
<v Speaker 4>much ideological. I mean, Fetterman's not bad at it, and

0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:28.919
<v Speaker 4>he's sort of a different place than Bernie and AOC

0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:31.960
<v Speaker 4>on all of these issues. So it's not a time

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.159
<v Speaker 4>for timidity. It's a time for boldness, and it's a

0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:39.280
<v Speaker 4>time to if you really believe that democracy is a threat,

0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.480
<v Speaker 4>which you should to act like it to respond. It's

0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.320
<v Speaker 4>still this confusion that the Democratic Party has, which is

0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:48.360
<v Speaker 4>understandable and there's something admirable about this in a way

0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:51.280
<v Speaker 4>that their role is to be a governing party. No,

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 4>I mean Johnathan last wrote about this brilliantly thought their

0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:56.920
<v Speaker 4>role should be to be a dissident movement, and that's

0:24:56.960 --> 0:24:59.960
<v Speaker 4>what they should be looking at. How did dissident movements operate?

0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:02.639
<v Speaker 4>And they should be trying to stop all of this.

0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:05.920
<v Speaker 4>They shouldn't be worried that they're going to be seen

0:25:06.119 --> 0:25:10.159
<v Speaker 4>as uncompromising or they're not getting anything doing. You know,

0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:14.919
<v Speaker 4>they should do what used to be Buckley said of conservatism,

0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:17.280
<v Speaker 4>that stand in the wake of history and say no,

0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:20.600
<v Speaker 4>that's what they should be doing, and doing it loudly.

0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:24.600
<v Speaker 2>Stuart Stevens. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,

0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:25.320
<v Speaker 2>thank you.

0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:25.680
<v Speaker 3>Molly.

0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 2>Dija Fox is a congressional candidate in Arizona seventh District.

0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Fast Politics. Oh my god, I'm so excited, Dija.

0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:39.440
<v Speaker 5>Hello, thank you for having me.

0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:42.200
<v Speaker 2>We just did the math and we have known each

0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.480
<v Speaker 2>other very rufually. I mean, we don't know each other well,

0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:47.399
<v Speaker 2>but for eight years. I'm going to embarrass you and

0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:51.679
<v Speaker 2>tell the story of when I met you. Can I

0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 2>do that for a minute, go for it. So we

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:59.399
<v Speaker 2>were at an event and Women's magazine honoring you. You

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>have incredible story of your upbringing and how you grew up,

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:08.760
<v Speaker 2>and again you can tell I'm sure I'm making mistakes

0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:10.879
<v Speaker 2>here because it was like almost a decade ago, but

0:26:11.520 --> 0:26:17.160
<v Speaker 2>you grew up very modest circumstances, sometimes doing your homework

0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:19.200
<v Speaker 2>in your car where you were living.

0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:22.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. Yeah, we didn't have Wi Fi at my home,

0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:24.480
<v Speaker 5>so I would often have to take you know, go

0:26:24.560 --> 0:26:28.840
<v Speaker 5>to the library and sometimes even sit outside to use that.

0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:32.880
<v Speaker 2>But you did end up getting a scholarship to.

0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:37.080
<v Speaker 5>Barnard, actually to Columbia. But yes, Tywambia moving to New

0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:41.160
<v Speaker 5>York on a full ride. At Columbia in twenty eighteen

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.880
<v Speaker 5>and became the first of my family to go to college.

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:46.879
<v Speaker 5>It could not have been more of a one to

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.240
<v Speaker 5>eighty from where I was at. Right. I wrote my

0:26:49.520 --> 0:26:52.399
<v Speaker 5>college essays on my phone while working at the gas

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:58.920
<v Speaker 5>station after school, and I've since graduated and moved back

0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:01.480
<v Speaker 5>to Arizona, where I'm now running for office.

0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about what it looks like in Arizona right now.

0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Arizona is such an interesting state. The really one of

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:14.080
<v Speaker 2>the very few states where you had Trump Reuben Diego voters.

0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:16.439
<v Speaker 2>What does it take to win in Arizona and what

0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:20.120
<v Speaker 2>does Arizona look like? And also, you're running in a primary,

0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:22.480
<v Speaker 2>I want you to talk us through what your race

0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:23.000
<v Speaker 2>looks like.

0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:28.200
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, Arizona is an interesting place, right and

0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:30.280
<v Speaker 5>it's one of the things I love most about it

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 5>is that people here think really critically. But also, you know,

0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:40.199
<v Speaker 5>we have a real group of independence out here. And

0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:43.280
<v Speaker 5>so you're right to say that this last election showed

0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:46.600
<v Speaker 5>us some interesting numbers, right that Trump ended up winning

0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:50.440
<v Speaker 5>out here in Arizona. But we also saw Reuben Diego,

0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:53.359
<v Speaker 5>a Democrat, pull through in the Senate. And you know

0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:56.159
<v Speaker 5>what I think is maybe most interesting of all is

0:27:56.200 --> 0:28:00.000
<v Speaker 5>that we saw our abortion initiative, our citizens ballot initiative

0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:05.359
<v Speaker 5>pass and with a historic number of signatures to qualify,

0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:09.399
<v Speaker 5>they gathered something like eight hundred thousand, and so I

0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:12.240
<v Speaker 5>think it's safe to say that here in Arizona, people

0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:16.400
<v Speaker 5>are with us on the issues. And when we look

0:28:16.440 --> 0:28:20.000
<v Speaker 5>at a race like mine, I'm running for congress in

0:28:20.080 --> 0:28:24.000
<v Speaker 5>Congressional Districts seven here in Arizona that includes parts of

0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:29.400
<v Speaker 5>South and West Tucson, my hometown, two neighborhoods up in Phoenix,

0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:34.080
<v Speaker 5>and hundreds of miles of the US Mexico border. And

0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:38.120
<v Speaker 5>my district is one of the safer and bluer congressional

0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:42.160
<v Speaker 5>districts in Arizona. And so what's really on the line

0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:46.440
<v Speaker 5>in this race and in this primary is an opportunity

0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:51.400
<v Speaker 5>to one make history by electing one of the youngest members,

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:55.160
<v Speaker 5>the youngest member, and the first woman of my generation.

0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:28:56.160 --> 0:28:58.240
<v Speaker 5>And then you know, the other piece that I'll point

0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:02.160
<v Speaker 5>out here is that in this primary I'm running against

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:06.360
<v Speaker 5>two other folks, and I think what makes me stand

0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 5>out is I'm the break from the status quo. I'm

0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:11.479
<v Speaker 5>not a career politician. I got my start as an

0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 5>activist a decade ago, and so I know power from

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:19.600
<v Speaker 5>the other side of the diis.

0:29:19.160 --> 0:29:19.320
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 5>And I think in this moment where Trump has really

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:26.840
<v Speaker 5>thrown us into a sense of lawlessness, right where it

0:29:26.880 --> 0:29:30.480
<v Speaker 5>feels like rules suddenly don't matter, we need someone with

0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:34.400
<v Speaker 5>an advocacy lens right, with an activist's experience, to be

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:37.680
<v Speaker 5>an obstructionist to his agenda and to make people at

0:29:37.720 --> 0:29:40.080
<v Speaker 5>home feel like somebody is fighting for them.

0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would love you to talk about that, because

0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:45.520
<v Speaker 2>as a member of Congress, you have power, but you

0:29:45.560 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 2>also don't have that much power. So how do you

0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:53.400
<v Speaker 2>feel like you could use this congressional seat to really

0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>push against this?

0:29:55.400 --> 0:29:58.040
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I think first things first, Right, just by

0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:01.280
<v Speaker 5>the nature of me being in this seat, the dynamics

0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:05.040
<v Speaker 5>of power in Washington would look different. As it stands,

0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 5>something like one in five Americans are of my generation

0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:12.400
<v Speaker 5>Gen Z, and yet we have a single representative in Congress,

0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:16.160
<v Speaker 5>Like that is a true representation problem, right, And by

0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:19.320
<v Speaker 5>the nature of having someone not just a young person

0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:22.960
<v Speaker 5>for whom the climate crisis is not theoretical, right, for

0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:25.720
<v Speaker 5>whom I am a part of the first generation of

0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:28.440
<v Speaker 5>women to have less rights than our mothers, right, Like,

0:30:28.520 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 5>I bring a different perspective to this work by the

0:30:31.320 --> 0:30:35.120
<v Speaker 5>nature of my age. The other thing I'll say, as

0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:36.760
<v Speaker 5>it relates to age and how I would do this

0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:39.520
<v Speaker 5>job differently, is that Donald Trump has been running for

0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:43.880
<v Speaker 5>president since I was fifteen years old. The entirety of

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:48.600
<v Speaker 5>my sort of political consciousness has been affected by this

0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 5>man and the circus he is running up in DC.

0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 5>And so when we ask how would I do things differently,

0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.840
<v Speaker 5>I think you're right to say that under a Trump trifecta,

0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 5>it feels like even people holding some of the offices

0:31:03.120 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 5>with the most power seem to have their hands tied

0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:08.959
<v Speaker 5>on what they can do. My commitment is that I

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:12.920
<v Speaker 5>would learn the ins and outs of Capitol Hill, right,

0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 5>things like parliamentary maneuvers, to be a true obstructionist to

0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:21.080
<v Speaker 5>his agenda, especially when it comes to tax cuts for

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:24.280
<v Speaker 5>the billionaires and most wealthy among us.

0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:24.600
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:27.560
<v Speaker 5>And then the next thing I'll say, and I think

0:31:27.840 --> 0:31:34.080
<v Speaker 5>this can't be understated, is that we need more effective messengers.

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Right. I was actually about to bring that up.

0:31:36.840 --> 0:31:40.160
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, go on, I mean I have interviewed these electeds, right,

0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:42.840
<v Speaker 5>I've gone up to DC with my mini mic and

0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:46.880
<v Speaker 5>questions in hand, even you know, most recently at the

0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:49.120
<v Speaker 5>joint address the State of the Union, if you will,

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 5>and I left disappointed these folks are not keeping up

0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:58.160
<v Speaker 5>in our own party with the changing media landscape. Right,

0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 5>something like thirty nine of adults under thirty get their

0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:05.000
<v Speaker 5>news on TikTok, And so if we're going to stay

0:32:05.000 --> 0:32:09.000
<v Speaker 5>competitive with the right, we need to build a more

0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:16.800
<v Speaker 5>effective media ecosystem and have the kind of representation and electeds,

0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:20.600
<v Speaker 5>especially in these safe blue seats, who can meet the moment,

0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:25.239
<v Speaker 5>who can translate a message into digital spaces, and our

0:32:25.280 --> 0:32:28.800
<v Speaker 5>campaign is doing that already. We have over four million

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:33.600
<v Speaker 5>organic views in the last month on Instagram and TikTok

0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:37.640
<v Speaker 5>and a special election primary in Arizona, right, Like, imagine

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:39.600
<v Speaker 5>what we could do with the power of that seat.

0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:42.560
<v Speaker 5>And at a time where Democrats have an approval rating

0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:45.960
<v Speaker 5>in the twenties, we should be looking to say, who

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:48.680
<v Speaker 5>are our new voices, what does new leadership look like,

0:32:48.920 --> 0:32:51.760
<v Speaker 5>and who can we send into these these safer and

0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:54.520
<v Speaker 5>bluer seats to make people at home feel fought for

0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:55.959
<v Speaker 5>so we don't lose them.

0:32:56.440 --> 0:33:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I also think that some of the problem that

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:06.600
<v Speaker 2>we're seeing is just that there's just not enough explaining

0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>that goes on, and you can't necessarily explain the stuff

0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:16.360
<v Speaker 2>if you are using traditional platforms. So I'm thinking about

0:33:16.480 --> 0:33:20.240
<v Speaker 2>AOC as ranking member of Oversight. One of the really

0:33:20.480 --> 0:33:25.120
<v Speaker 2>big enforced errors I think that Democrats did was they

0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:28.800
<v Speaker 2>refuse to make AOC ranking on Oversight, and the thinking

0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:32.520
<v Speaker 2>was it wasn't her turn because Jerry Connolly had been

0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:34.200
<v Speaker 2>on oversight for a long time and a lot of

0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:35.960
<v Speaker 2>people felt they owed him discussed.

0:33:36.200 --> 0:33:38.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean that resonates with me. That kind of

0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:42.400
<v Speaker 5>thinking out in DC is exactly what I'm going up

0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:46.239
<v Speaker 5>against right now in my primary. Right this idea that

0:33:46.280 --> 0:33:49.400
<v Speaker 5>we need to wait our turn, that the Republican Party

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:51.160
<v Speaker 5>is going to go back to normal if we just

0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:53.480
<v Speaker 5>give it some time, which young people like me know

0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:58.239
<v Speaker 5>is not true. Right, that politics has forever changed in

0:33:58.240 --> 0:34:01.240
<v Speaker 5>this country, and we needeople who are willing to meet

0:34:01.280 --> 0:34:04.200
<v Speaker 5>that moment, who are willing to be the messengers who

0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:07.000
<v Speaker 5>are going to do that explaining to help people understand

0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:10.880
<v Speaker 5>what is happening in DC and not just the awful

0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:13.520
<v Speaker 5>things that are being done on the right in real

0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:17.279
<v Speaker 5>time and at a frequency that is impossible to keep

0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:21.080
<v Speaker 5>up with but on our side, right, how are we

0:34:21.160 --> 0:34:23.480
<v Speaker 5>fighting for them? And I think one of the I

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:26.440
<v Speaker 5>liked this phrase used unforced errors, right, sort of. One

0:34:26.440 --> 0:34:28.480
<v Speaker 5>of the things I think Democrats are leaving on the

0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:32.919
<v Speaker 5>table is they're failing to even explain what they're doing well. Right,

0:34:33.400 --> 0:34:36.760
<v Speaker 5>But you know, you're right to say that our party

0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:41.000
<v Speaker 5>has a deficit of leadership in this moment, and we

0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:44.760
<v Speaker 5>see it in moments where folks like AOC are denied

0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:49.480
<v Speaker 5>leadership positions despite coming in at the top when asked.

0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:52.040
<v Speaker 5>You know, there was a CNN poll I believe that

0:34:52.200 --> 0:34:56.719
<v Speaker 5>asked who in the Democratic Party which elected best represents

0:34:56.800 --> 0:35:00.160
<v Speaker 5>our core values? And AOC rose to the top right.

0:35:00.520 --> 0:35:04.560
<v Speaker 5>And so instead of listening to the people right and

0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:11.120
<v Speaker 5>mirroring that in our leadership structures, DC has constantly and

0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:15.400
<v Speaker 5>consistently tried the top down approach that they know better

0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:18.640
<v Speaker 5>than people, right, And we're seeing that been in elections

0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:22.560
<v Speaker 5>like mine, where there's pushback on having a true primary.

0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:29.160
<v Speaker 5>Right would rather have selections than elections because it feels safer,

0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:34.120
<v Speaker 5>more predictable people who are really entrenched in this establishment.

0:35:34.440 --> 0:35:37.160
<v Speaker 5>But for folks like me, right, I am at the

0:35:37.200 --> 0:35:43.080
<v Speaker 5>doors listening to constituents and online right reading the TikTok comments,

0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:47.000
<v Speaker 5>taking a pulse for where our party and where young people,

0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:50.200
<v Speaker 5>in particular the future of our party are at. And

0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:53.960
<v Speaker 5>we know that we need newer and younger voices if

0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:56.680
<v Speaker 5>we're going to have a party for my generation to inherit.

0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:01.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I'm wondering if you could explain to us

0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:05.040
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that I think that traditional Democrats

0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:08.320
<v Speaker 2>don't feel comfortable with is doing the kind of media

0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:12.319
<v Speaker 2>that they probably need to explain to us what that

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.200
<v Speaker 2>looks like and how they should do it.

0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:18.000
<v Speaker 5>The media landscape has changed so much, even in the

0:36:18.080 --> 0:36:22.120
<v Speaker 5>last ten years. I had my first viral video in

0:36:22.239 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 5>twenty seventeen going toe to toe with my former senator,

0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:30.440
<v Speaker 5>a Republican, Jeff Flake, over his attempts to defund planned parenthood. Right,

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:33.880
<v Speaker 5>I shouldn't fit his town hall, which Republicans do not

0:36:34.040 --> 0:36:35.480
<v Speaker 5>seem to be hosting anymore.

0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:38.359
<v Speaker 2>When they used to do town hall right in the.

0:36:38.239 --> 0:36:41.960
<v Speaker 5>Era in which Republicans had town halls and like would

0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:45.120
<v Speaker 5>go and be face to face with their constituents, a

0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:48.759
<v Speaker 5>bygone era of democracy. I fear, and I asked him

0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.160
<v Speaker 5>why he is a middle aged white man was making

0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:53.359
<v Speaker 5>decisions about me and my body, right, And he says

0:36:53.400 --> 0:36:55.440
<v Speaker 5>this thing about how he supports policies that support the

0:36:55.480 --> 0:36:58.120
<v Speaker 5>American Dream, and I ask him why he would deny

0:36:58.200 --> 0:37:01.160
<v Speaker 5>me the American Dream. And millions of people overnight on

0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:05.600
<v Speaker 5>Twitter and Facebook saw that video, and I share that

0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:08.400
<v Speaker 5>story to say that in the last what is that

0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.640
<v Speaker 5>eight years since we've known each other, the landscape on

0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:15.480
<v Speaker 5>which we are meeting people, in which they are developing

0:37:15.480 --> 0:37:20.359
<v Speaker 5>their political understanding has shifted. And for someone like me, right,

0:37:20.680 --> 0:37:24.360
<v Speaker 5>who has been ear to the ground, following each platform

0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:28.319
<v Speaker 5>as it develops and really working in digital strategy, right

0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.560
<v Speaker 5>for candidates even like Kamala Harris, I've been able to

0:37:31.640 --> 0:37:33.840
<v Speaker 5>keep up with that shift. But for a lot of

0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:40.240
<v Speaker 5>these legacy folks, establishment Dems on our side, they're failing

0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:44.919
<v Speaker 5>to see the movement of attention and political understanding. There's

0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:48.799
<v Speaker 5>a bit of even an elitism, if you will, around

0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:53.960
<v Speaker 5>who builds political understanding right that there's no way that

0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:57.960
<v Speaker 5>someone like me, with hundreds of thousands of followers on

0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:01.440
<v Speaker 5>TikTok and Instagram, there's no way that I could be

0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:06.000
<v Speaker 5>the one building people's political understandings over something like you know,

0:38:06.200 --> 0:38:09.400
<v Speaker 5>a more traditional CNN or MSNBC, which is behind a

0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:13.319
<v Speaker 5>paywall for most people of my generation and inaccessible, and

0:38:13.400 --> 0:38:17.120
<v Speaker 5>so you know, I think it will take candidates like

0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:19.799
<v Speaker 5>me who are taking a new media approach right, who

0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:22.880
<v Speaker 5>are hopping on the podcasts and doing the substack live

0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:28.240
<v Speaker 5>streams and consistently pumping out viral content with organic views

0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:32.520
<v Speaker 5>all across the country and in district to change their minds.

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:35.560
<v Speaker 5>We still have to prove concept to some of these

0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:39.840
<v Speaker 5>more traditional folks. But I think what is scarier is

0:38:39.880 --> 0:38:42.800
<v Speaker 5>that we may not have time that if we don't

0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:47.560
<v Speaker 5>start being competitive in these digital spaces. We already saw

0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:50.359
<v Speaker 5>an indicator of this in twenty twenty four, but the

0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:54.319
<v Speaker 5>other side already has a head start. And if we

0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.400
<v Speaker 5>don't start closing the gap now by electing people who

0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:01.279
<v Speaker 5>are strong messagers in new media and digital spaces, if

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:05.360
<v Speaker 5>we don't start investing in the creators who have strong

0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 5>podcasts and interview series and live streams right by giving

0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:13.359
<v Speaker 5>them access to our electeds and letting them ask real questions,

0:39:13.719 --> 0:39:17.840
<v Speaker 5>and if we don't start investing in that media ecosystem overall,

0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:19.959
<v Speaker 5>like we are going to be in a really bad

0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:21.840
<v Speaker 5>spot in twenty twenty eight.

0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's funny because I actually don't think it

0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:28.200
<v Speaker 2>necessarily matters what the questions you ask people are. Has

0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:30.719
<v Speaker 2>someone who has been doing interviewing for a long time.

0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:33.560
<v Speaker 2>I actually think people just say what they want to

0:39:33.600 --> 0:39:36.759
<v Speaker 2>say and you want to sort of direct them. But

0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:39.719
<v Speaker 2>there are certain people who will tell you more on

0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.960
<v Speaker 2>a staff than other people. And I think one of

0:39:43.040 --> 0:39:45.920
<v Speaker 2>the things that I have been really struggling with is

0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:50.600
<v Speaker 2>this sort of mckinseying of democratic speak, so where you

0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:54.320
<v Speaker 2>interview someone but they really refuse to tell you anything

0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:58.680
<v Speaker 2>that is particularly relevant. And look, sometimes that's been used

0:39:58.680 --> 0:40:01.200
<v Speaker 2>to great effect, but at this point, I think it's

0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:03.919
<v Speaker 2>losing more elections than it's winning for Democrats.

0:40:04.360 --> 0:40:05.879
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I couldn't agree with you.

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:06.360
<v Speaker 4>More.

0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:11.359
<v Speaker 5>People's bs radar is up right and what they expect

0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:18.480
<v Speaker 5>not only from politicians but from celebrities right influencers. Even

0:40:18.840 --> 0:40:22.040
<v Speaker 5>because of the nature of social media, where anyone can

0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:25.279
<v Speaker 5>leave a comment for the entire world to see, or

0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:29.000
<v Speaker 5>send a DM in real time to anyone they want

0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:32.080
<v Speaker 5>anywhere in the world. Right, there is a new expectation

0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:37.719
<v Speaker 5>of transparency and accountability in our culture because of the

0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:40.839
<v Speaker 5>structures of these social media platforms and the ways they

0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:46.160
<v Speaker 5>have affected our social relationships. And one thing I'm really

0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:49.680
<v Speaker 5>proud of on our campaign is the level of transparency

0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:52.720
<v Speaker 5>we're bringing to this process. I once again will stress

0:40:53.120 --> 0:40:56.080
<v Speaker 5>that this is a special election primary in the middle

0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:58.960
<v Speaker 5>of summer in Arizona, with like one hundred days in it.

0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:04.680
<v Speaker 5>There is absolutely no expectation from like an establishment point

0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:07.520
<v Speaker 5>of view of bringing new people into this process. This

0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:09.680
<v Speaker 5>is the kind of election where they're like, focus on

0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:12.680
<v Speaker 5>the high efficacy voters and leave everybody else behind. And

0:41:12.719 --> 0:41:15.279
<v Speaker 5>that is absolutely not what we are doing over here.

0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:18.320
<v Speaker 5>We are doing what you said earlier, which is explaining

0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:19.200
<v Speaker 5>the process.

0:41:19.320 --> 0:41:19.520
<v Speaker 4>Right.

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:22.800
<v Speaker 5>We took people along as we gathered signatures. We showed

0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:26.319
<v Speaker 5>them the process of literally submitting those signatures to the

0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:29.680
<v Speaker 5>Secretary of State's office, and then showed them the receipts

0:41:29.719 --> 0:41:32.560
<v Speaker 5>of how many we had, right, like the actual receipt

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:35.360
<v Speaker 5>from his office. We've taken them behind the scenes on

0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:38.920
<v Speaker 5>things like fundraising. You know, there is probably hundreds of

0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:42.840
<v Speaker 5>thousands of more people that know now what rolodexing and

0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:46.920
<v Speaker 5>call time are because of our videos, and so, you know,

0:41:47.120 --> 0:41:50.120
<v Speaker 5>I think pulling back a little bit of that rather

0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 5>one of the benefits of our campaign, and the way

0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:55.120
<v Speaker 5>we are doing things differently by the nature of being

0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:59.719
<v Speaker 5>a candidate who is transparent and available online, is that

0:41:59.719 --> 0:42:02.920
<v Speaker 5>we are making this process more transparent as we go.

0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:05.640
<v Speaker 5>And I think the effects of that are still yet

0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:07.960
<v Speaker 5>to be seen, but we know that it's one of

0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 5>the issues that democrats and our democracy at large are facing.

0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:15.680
<v Speaker 5>Right There is an issue of transparency, of people feeling

0:42:15.719 --> 0:42:18.520
<v Speaker 5>like they're included in the process. And the other thing

0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:21.200
<v Speaker 5>that is still left to be seen but will will

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:25.000
<v Speaker 5>know shortly, is how it will affect other young people

0:42:25.280 --> 0:42:28.600
<v Speaker 5>who are considering a run for office. I get, I'm

0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:31.799
<v Speaker 5>not kidding you, hundreds of dms of young people who

0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:35.080
<v Speaker 5>are interested in running for office because of the content

0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:39.279
<v Speaker 5>they are seeing on my platform around this election, right,

0:42:39.640 --> 0:42:42.920
<v Speaker 5>who want to know more about the process, who are

0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:46.400
<v Speaker 5>frustrated and fed up, and who want to take action.

0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:49.600
<v Speaker 5>And I think it can't be understated that after losing

0:42:49.680 --> 0:42:52.600
<v Speaker 5>so many young people in this last election to apathy

0:42:52.719 --> 0:42:55.920
<v Speaker 5>or to the other side, that we need leaders who

0:42:55.960 --> 0:42:59.600
<v Speaker 5>are inspiring young people to get involved, right, who make

0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:03.799
<v Speaker 5>it feel possible, not more folks who you know, through

0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:07.120
<v Speaker 5>the means of legacy and establishment, make this feel even

0:43:07.239 --> 0:43:10.239
<v Speaker 5>further away and affirm what people already believe, which is

0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:12.279
<v Speaker 5>that this political process isn't for them.

0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:16.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining.

0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:18.080
<v Speaker 5>Us, thank you for having me, and thank you for

0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:20.960
<v Speaker 5>your thoughtful questions. Nobody said it was going to be easy.

0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:23.640
<v Speaker 5>It's hard work and it's good work. And I hope

0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.759
<v Speaker 5>that people will join in to support our work and

0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:29.839
<v Speaker 5>our campaign because we really have a shot to make

0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:31.759
<v Speaker 5>history over here in Arizona. But we only got a

0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:32.560
<v Speaker 5>few weeks left.

0:43:32.719 --> 0:43:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Who are you running a hand?

0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.680
<v Speaker 5>There are two other folks in this Democratic primary of note.

0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:42.359
<v Speaker 5>One is a former state legislator and the other came

0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:45.800
<v Speaker 5>off the board of supervisors and is the former congressman's daughter.

0:43:46.280 --> 0:43:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, yeah. And is she young?

0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:52.560
<v Speaker 5>No, she's in her fifties. And I think what you

0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:55.000
<v Speaker 5>need to know about the difference between me and them

0:43:55.480 --> 0:43:59.640
<v Speaker 5>is that when it comes to experience, mine is in

0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:03.319
<v Speaker 5>an act advocacy realm right, you know. The experience that

0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:05.120
<v Speaker 5>I bring is advocacy.

0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Carol Cadwalder is an investigative journalist and the author of

0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:15.040
<v Speaker 2>The Family Tree. Welcome to Fast Politics.

0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:19.280
<v Speaker 6>So nice to be here, great fan, great fans.

0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's very mutual so your atjourney started with the

0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:26.120
<v Speaker 2>journey of Braxit.

0:44:26.400 --> 0:44:28.960
<v Speaker 6>Which journey are we talking? Well?

0:44:28.960 --> 0:44:31.240
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I want you to give us your

0:44:31.440 --> 0:44:34.799
<v Speaker 2>for those who are not as dialed in as Jesse

0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and I are.

0:44:35.960 --> 0:44:38.439
<v Speaker 6>The hell is this British chick of what you're doing

0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:39.200
<v Speaker 6>on your podcast?

0:44:39.320 --> 0:44:43.479
<v Speaker 2>Is that all right? Yeah? You can do this with Yeah.

0:44:44.800 --> 0:44:48.520
<v Speaker 6>So basically who am I? I am an investigative journalist.

0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:53.840
<v Speaker 6>I was until three weeks ago a Guardian journalist, but

0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:57.279
<v Speaker 6>I have been expelled now from mainstream media. I've been

0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:01.799
<v Speaker 6>clinging on but anyway, they the Guardians, sold my bit

0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:06.319
<v Speaker 6>of the organization and so anyway, long story, but I'm out.

0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:10.360
<v Speaker 6>But I'm enjoying my liberty and freedom I have to

0:45:10.400 --> 0:45:13.520
<v Speaker 6>tell you, which enables me to be quite punchy. Which

0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:16.960
<v Speaker 6>is I mean, I've been pretty punchy, but I feel

0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:19.360
<v Speaker 6>that I don't know something about age is becoming more so.

0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:24.040
<v Speaker 6>But to answer the question, I essentially my beat became

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:28.759
<v Speaker 6>in twenty sixteen. My beat really became this thing which

0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:32.480
<v Speaker 6>was the intersection of technology and politics, and of course

0:45:32.520 --> 0:45:36.759
<v Speaker 6>that means technology and democracy. And I was kind of

0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.960
<v Speaker 6>just terrified. I'd been reporting on tech for quite a

0:45:40.000 --> 0:45:43.799
<v Speaker 6>long time. By that stage, but very much from as generalist,

0:45:44.280 --> 0:45:47.120
<v Speaker 6>like I'm a feature writer, that's my background. It's very

0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:50.799
<v Speaker 6>much about like explaining to the world how this stuff worked,

0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:53.040
<v Speaker 6>rather than doing the sort of like my new who

0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:56.600
<v Speaker 6>is a great new product. Anyway, in that sort of

0:45:56.920 --> 0:46:00.600
<v Speaker 6>I sort of became terrified about what I discovered in

0:46:00.760 --> 0:46:04.879
<v Speaker 6>the twenty sixteen. It was really actually the thing which

0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:07.280
<v Speaker 6>really sent me down the rabbit hole was the election

0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:09.920
<v Speaker 6>of Trump. And then that I started pulling on a

0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:14.439
<v Speaker 6>string and I discovered this really shady data company called

0:46:14.520 --> 0:46:16.280
<v Speaker 6>Cambridge Analytica.

0:46:16.280 --> 0:46:19.319
<v Speaker 2>And little by little I pulled that.

0:46:19.280 --> 0:46:22.719
<v Speaker 6>String and sort of discovered this huge scandal, the Facebook

0:46:22.760 --> 0:46:26.880
<v Speaker 6>Cambridge Analytica scandal, which was this massive data breach in

0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:32.319
<v Speaker 6>which eighty seven million people's Facebook profiles were harvested and

0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:36.680
<v Speaker 6>then used essentially to help elect Trump and the same

0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:39.680
<v Speaker 6>company and the same people. It was very much there

0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:43.520
<v Speaker 6>was this totally kind of twin operation you could see

0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:48.440
<v Speaker 6>between Brexit and Trump and just it was the same people,

0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:50.640
<v Speaker 6>it was the same companies, it was the same data.

0:46:51.040 --> 0:46:55.240
<v Speaker 6>We had the same kinds of bad actors, the same

0:46:55.440 --> 0:46:59.160
<v Speaker 6>foreign interference, and so that sort of question of how

0:46:59.200 --> 0:47:05.000
<v Speaker 6>these tech plans platforms essentially facilitated a complete revolution in

0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:08.800
<v Speaker 6>the way that we do campaigning and politic completely opaque,

0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:13.840
<v Speaker 6>completely unaccountable and uh and have you know, caused a

0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:17.160
<v Speaker 6>convulsion in what we think of as democracy. And I

0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:22.040
<v Speaker 6>would argue doesn't really, you know, it's a very big

0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:24.840
<v Speaker 6>question about whether that still exists in that in this

0:47:24.920 --> 0:47:26.839
<v Speaker 6>online world. Was that did that work?

0:47:27.760 --> 0:47:30.160
<v Speaker 2>It did work? But it's pretty heavy. I mean it's

0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:32.000
<v Speaker 2>very it's quite heavy.

0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:34.160
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it's quite heavy. I mean it it's this this,

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:37.200
<v Speaker 6>I mean, it's it's amazing. Actually, weirdly, as I have

0:47:37.320 --> 0:47:41.520
<v Speaker 6>this thing of that, I actually weirdly feel more cheerful

0:47:41.719 --> 0:47:44.960
<v Speaker 6>right now than I did for really long periods of

0:47:45.000 --> 0:47:48.400
<v Speaker 6>this time. And it's because the threat is now visible,

0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:52.480
<v Speaker 6>right that the at least done us all a favor

0:47:53.000 --> 0:47:57.640
<v Speaker 6>in like oh okay, Silicon Valley, these tech companies, what

0:47:57.640 --> 0:48:02.360
<v Speaker 6>they're doing. What the aar like, the centralized power, the

0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:06.919
<v Speaker 6>totally unaccountable power. We now get it in a way. Yes,

0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:09.799
<v Speaker 6>we're sparing on the journey. I feel like we're now

0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:12.480
<v Speaker 6>starting on the journey of at least getting it.

0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:16.640
<v Speaker 2>So you had an incredible TED talk that where you

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:22.040
<v Speaker 2>talked about techno authoritarianism, right, that's what it really is,

0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:25.520
<v Speaker 2>getting your data, using it to control you meet, you know,

0:48:25.680 --> 0:48:29.359
<v Speaker 2>sort of the worst of authoritarianism and the worst of

0:48:29.520 --> 0:48:34.080
<v Speaker 2>data mining coming together. You know, that's the Elon Musk

0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:38.319
<v Speaker 2>part and the Heritage Foundation part coming together to rule

0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:40.719
<v Speaker 2>the world. Talk us through kind of how you got

0:48:40.760 --> 0:48:41.719
<v Speaker 2>to this thesis.

0:48:42.000 --> 0:48:44.360
<v Speaker 6>I don't think it's a thesis. I think it is reality.

0:48:44.520 --> 0:48:48.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, no, no, but it is reality. But it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:48:49.120 --> 0:48:52.120
<v Speaker 2>To sum it up, sort of, you know, to sum

0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:56.200
<v Speaker 2>it up is that we live in a surveillance society.

0:48:56.960 --> 0:49:01.759
<v Speaker 6>Right. Every single thing, our entire econ, the entire online

0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:07.560
<v Speaker 6>economy is predicated on knowing what we're up to online

0:49:07.960 --> 0:49:13.200
<v Speaker 6>and tracking that and monetizing that, and that underpins these

0:49:13.760 --> 0:49:17.839
<v Speaker 6>you know, trillion dollar tech companies. That's their model, that's

0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:20.960
<v Speaker 6>what they're based on. They're based on knowing who we are,

0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:25.160
<v Speaker 6>and they know who we are by gathering this data

0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:29.799
<v Speaker 6>about us, and you can everybody was sort of like

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.719
<v Speaker 6>had different. Oh I don't care anyway, Like I don't

0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:35.000
<v Speaker 6>care about my privacy. It doesn't manter to me. Oh,

0:49:35.000 --> 0:49:37.600
<v Speaker 6>I've got nothing to hide like That was the sort

0:49:37.640 --> 0:49:42.800
<v Speaker 6>of mentality which built Silicon Valley, but now Silicon Valley

0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:46.800
<v Speaker 6>is it's you know, we've seen this merger take place

0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:52.040
<v Speaker 6>between Silicon Valley and the most powerful superpower in the world,

0:49:52.680 --> 0:49:56.360
<v Speaker 6>and those two things have now come together. And so

0:49:57.239 --> 0:50:02.600
<v Speaker 6>that power that all see being all knowing power coming

0:50:02.640 --> 0:50:07.719
<v Speaker 6>together with a superpower with nuclear weapons, which is reshaping

0:50:07.800 --> 0:50:14.440
<v Speaker 6>the world order. This is if you're not terrified, it

0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:17.240
<v Speaker 6>is because you are not paying attention. And I actually

0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:20.560
<v Speaker 6>I feel really bad saying that because I am based

0:50:20.680 --> 0:50:25.000
<v Speaker 6>here in London and I am one degree removed from

0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:28.760
<v Speaker 6>what is happening in America. But it's only one degree removed.

0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:31.719
<v Speaker 6>You don't have to apologize for things not being as

0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:34.880
<v Speaker 6>bad where you are than where we are. And I

0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:38.080
<v Speaker 6>think we talked when we were talking offline before you

0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.840
<v Speaker 6>were saying, you actually feel a little better. And I

0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:45.040
<v Speaker 6>actually feel a little better too because some of the

0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:48.279
<v Speaker 6>stuff we saw. And I had a similar experience with

0:50:48.440 --> 0:50:52.320
<v Speaker 6>Project Toy twenty five, which is I was like, holy shit,

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:56.279
<v Speaker 6>this is going to gut the entire federal government, Like

0:50:56.480 --> 0:50:59.200
<v Speaker 6>if they enact this, it is going to be the

0:50:59.320 --> 0:51:02.160
<v Speaker 6>end of rural hospitals and we're all nursing homes and

0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:05.880
<v Speaker 6>this and that, and I was like, and the you know,

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:09.480
<v Speaker 6>administrative state, I mean, the goal is to dismantle everything

0:51:09.520 --> 0:51:13.080
<v Speaker 6>you get from the federal government. And now that it's happening,

0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:15.800
<v Speaker 6>I'm like, oh, I'm not crazy, Like this was actually

0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:17.200
<v Speaker 6>what it was. And I feel like you have that

0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:21.960
<v Speaker 6>same thought. So I've been Britain's premier conspiracy theorist for

0:51:22.000 --> 0:51:24.760
<v Speaker 6>a decade. I mean I sort of hold that title.

0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:29.000
<v Speaker 6>I've been a cultural hate figure because I investigated Brexit,

0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:32.080
<v Speaker 6>which you know, it was an it was a totally

0:51:32.120 --> 0:51:37.080
<v Speaker 6>evidence based journalistic investigation. However, because it was into a

0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:42.400
<v Speaker 6>political matter with such divisiveness in Britain, I got tird

0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:46.600
<v Speaker 6>and smeared and feathered, trd and smothed and feathered. I

0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.839
<v Speaker 6>was like hung out to dry and multiply harassed and

0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:53.160
<v Speaker 6>all the rest of it. Because the way of undermining

0:51:53.200 --> 0:51:56.160
<v Speaker 6>my reporting was to undermine me, and the way of

0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:58.560
<v Speaker 6>undermining me was to go after me in this very personal,

0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:04.160
<v Speaker 6>misogynistic way. And yeah, the conspiracy theory of around this

0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:07.480
<v Speaker 6>stuffs has been you know, it's kind of interesting. I

0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:09.359
<v Speaker 6>actually haven't had that for a little while. I mean,

0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:11.759
<v Speaker 6>I'm sure it will come back to another footwear but

0:52:12.440 --> 0:52:15.040
<v Speaker 6>it turned out it turned out it wasn't a conspiracy theory,

0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:16.360
<v Speaker 6>it was a conspiracy.

0:52:16.920 --> 0:52:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, and I mean I think that's like Brexit

0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:23.960
<v Speaker 2>is a great example because it's over and it's clearly

0:52:24.160 --> 0:52:27.800
<v Speaker 2>was a disaster. Right. They didn't want Polish plumbers coming

0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:31.319
<v Speaker 2>into the country, so they sanctioned themselves and it's been

0:52:31.520 --> 0:52:32.920
<v Speaker 2>a complete disaster, right.

0:52:32.960 --> 0:52:35.279
<v Speaker 6>I wish I could say that's the thing is is

0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:38.160
<v Speaker 6>that we haven't because of the sort of nobody has

0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:41.799
<v Speaker 6>any consensus of reality anymore, because of the way that

0:52:41.840 --> 0:52:45.640
<v Speaker 6>the tech platforms, the way that we consume information. So

0:52:45.719 --> 0:52:49.640
<v Speaker 6>there is no consensus of reality in Britain that Brexit

0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:54.200
<v Speaker 6>was a disaster to such to such a degree that

0:52:54.280 --> 0:52:59.160
<v Speaker 6>our left, supposedly left wing labor government can't even talk

0:52:59.200 --> 0:53:03.880
<v Speaker 6>about this. Right, that's still is of a boaten subject

0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:06.640
<v Speaker 6>which they just don't want to go near. Because also

0:53:06.920 --> 0:53:11.520
<v Speaker 6>in Britain, our media landscape is totally dominated by still

0:53:11.640 --> 0:53:15.160
<v Speaker 6>powerful less powerful than it was, but it's still powerful

0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:19.000
<v Speaker 6>right wing, corporate and sort of oligarchic media and they

0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:23.239
<v Speaker 6>you know, they've made the political agenda for years, for decades,

0:53:23.560 --> 0:53:25.440
<v Speaker 6>and they still have this sort of huge amount of

0:53:25.440 --> 0:53:30.719
<v Speaker 6>power that way, So yeah, so sadly, sadly, although by

0:53:30.760 --> 0:53:37.839
<v Speaker 6>every demonstrable, demonstrable and measurable index, yes, it has been

0:53:37.880 --> 0:53:41.000
<v Speaker 6>a disaster, but we still can't get people to own that.

0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:45.439
<v Speaker 2>That is so incredibly sharking way, But okay, I want

0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:47.960
<v Speaker 2>you to talk about the data and what it looks

0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:52.719
<v Speaker 2>like to you. So in twenty sixteen it was Facebook.

0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I think of Mark Zackerberg as like significantly more evil

0:53:57.000 --> 0:54:00.440
<v Speaker 2>than Elon Musk, despite the fact that Elon Musk reads

0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:03.759
<v Speaker 2>us more evil than Mark Zuckerberok, because Elon Musk and

0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:07.400
<v Speaker 2>again this is this idea, So Elon Musk is out

0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:09.960
<v Speaker 2>about what he's doing, so talk to us about that.

0:54:10.560 --> 0:54:12.880
<v Speaker 6>Why So I'm really curious, why do you think Zuckerbog's

0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:14.239
<v Speaker 6>more evil? Go and give me we.

0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:18.160
<v Speaker 2>All because he pretends to not be evil. Whereas Elon

0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:21.080
<v Speaker 2>is like full on, you know, we want you know,

0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:24.680
<v Speaker 2>for you know, it's like, why do these four people

0:54:24.960 --> 0:54:28.320
<v Speaker 2>get food when we could just be giving tax cuts

0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:32.920
<v Speaker 2>to huge corporations, Whereas I feel like Mark Zuckerberg is like,

0:54:33.480 --> 0:54:37.160
<v Speaker 2>we're here to connect everyone. We are here for connection,

0:54:37.440 --> 0:54:39.920
<v Speaker 2>and then it's like and the Rahingan genocide.

0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:41.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, ye know.

0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:44.880
<v Speaker 6>Also as well, it's got. The thing about Zuckerberg is

0:54:44.880 --> 0:54:49.400
<v Speaker 6>that there's a slight of hand with him in you know,

0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:52.600
<v Speaker 6>they keep renaming shits, so it's refused to call it meta.

0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:55.319
<v Speaker 6>I'm still calling it Facebook. They renamed it meta to

0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:58.239
<v Speaker 6>sort of like wipe the stink off all the Facebook scandals.

0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.080
<v Speaker 6>But I'm sorry that I'm not flying with And the

0:55:01.400 --> 0:55:05.880
<v Speaker 6>slides of hand is that Facebook is Facebook, it's Instagram,

0:55:05.960 --> 0:55:09.120
<v Speaker 6>it's WhatsApp, it's and those people always forget that.

0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:09.640
<v Speaker 2>You always have.

0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:11.600
<v Speaker 6>These youngsters saying, oh, I'm not on Facebook, I don't

0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:13.879
<v Speaker 6>having things to do meta, and it's like, yeah, do us.

0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:17.680
<v Speaker 6>Of course they use Instagram, so it's and then of course,

0:55:17.760 --> 0:55:20.160
<v Speaker 6>you know and like I am I have of boten

0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:23.399
<v Speaker 6>policy on you know too, And now i am I'm

0:55:23.440 --> 0:55:26.440
<v Speaker 6>on WhatsApp and actually I've just joined Instagram. He in

0:55:26.560 --> 0:55:31.040
<v Speaker 6>terms of the world's population and use of product his products, yeah,

0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:35.279
<v Speaker 6>he does win. And that's there is actually global domination there.

0:55:35.680 --> 0:55:37.880
<v Speaker 6>And you know, there is a really interesting case happening

0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:40.280
<v Speaker 6>at the moment, which is they are looking to break

0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:41.680
<v Speaker 6>up anti trust.

0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the anti trust thing.

0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:45.680
<v Speaker 6>And of course it's not a coincidence that he's cozying

0:55:45.800 --> 0:55:49.560
<v Speaker 6>up to Trump, right, I mean, it's he's got a

0:55:49.560 --> 0:55:51.719
<v Speaker 6>lot to lose. He's got a lot to lose. I

0:55:51.719 --> 0:55:54.840
<v Speaker 6>think the difference is is that back in twenty sixteen,

0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:57.000
<v Speaker 6>the reason why that was such a moment and why

0:55:57.040 --> 0:56:01.000
<v Speaker 6>he was so culpable is because it was Facebook, which

0:56:01.080 --> 0:56:05.160
<v Speaker 6>was where politics, where campaigning was being conducted. That we

0:56:05.239 --> 0:56:08.719
<v Speaker 6>had much more centralized sort of social media landscape at

0:56:08.760 --> 0:56:11.920
<v Speaker 6>that time. Now it's much more scattered. There's so many

0:56:11.920 --> 0:56:15.520
<v Speaker 6>other it's you know, there's there's the guy, yeah, the

0:56:15.560 --> 0:56:17.560
<v Speaker 6>TikTok of it in the YouTube and all the rest

0:56:17.600 --> 0:56:19.359
<v Speaker 6>of it. Like that's where a lot of the sort

0:56:19.400 --> 0:56:23.000
<v Speaker 6>of money is being spent. Now, what's interesting about this Cambridgealytics.

0:56:23.120 --> 0:56:25.400
<v Speaker 6>It's a good thing in a way. It's a model.

0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:30.000
<v Speaker 6>It's a parable for what Musk has been doing inside

0:56:30.040 --> 0:56:33.759
<v Speaker 6>the government, which is that you know, Cambra Reganalystic. It

0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:38.160
<v Speaker 6>was hoovering up this Facebook data to then to then

0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:42.399
<v Speaker 6>build algorithms to to really understand who these people were

0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:47.279
<v Speaker 6>to then target them politically. So why is Musk hoovering

0:56:47.360 --> 0:56:52.120
<v Speaker 6>up all of this data from inside government? What's he doing?

0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:52.319
<v Speaker 4>It?

0:56:52.400 --> 0:56:56.120
<v Speaker 6>The most valuable resource in the world for you know,

0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:59.319
<v Speaker 6>the competition the game now is all AI. You want

0:56:59.320 --> 0:57:02.120
<v Speaker 6>to build the best AI, you know, that's where the

0:57:02.200 --> 0:57:04.640
<v Speaker 6>race is on. And to build the best AI, you

0:57:04.719 --> 0:57:07.520
<v Speaker 6>need the best sources of data. And here he you know,

0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:11.239
<v Speaker 6>has been inside the US government with absolutely kidd in

0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:16.560
<v Speaker 6>a candy shop with you know, the entire population's highly

0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:22.040
<v Speaker 6>highly sensitive different pieces of data, including financial and social

0:57:22.040 --> 0:57:24.440
<v Speaker 6>security and all the rest of it. That's the thing

0:57:24.520 --> 0:57:28.440
<v Speaker 6>I find the most terrifying in the sense like you

0:57:28.960 --> 0:57:31.160
<v Speaker 6>capture that, you capture the future in a way.

0:57:31.400 --> 0:57:34.960
<v Speaker 2>On Twitter already we're seeing like fake tweet by fake people.

0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:37.919
<v Speaker 2>So what's the But just explain to me the goal here.

0:57:38.520 --> 0:57:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Fake people create fake tweets that real people read and

0:57:43.560 --> 0:57:46.560
<v Speaker 2>think that more people believe something than really do.

0:57:46.920 --> 0:57:49.919
<v Speaker 6>I mean, just explain to me. It's basically it's because

0:57:49.960 --> 0:57:52.240
<v Speaker 6>it's a very complex landscape. And it was really funny.

0:57:52.280 --> 0:57:56.160
<v Speaker 6>There was this quite senior political journalist during the Brexit years.

0:57:56.160 --> 0:57:59.520
<v Speaker 6>He was just he went was on some political program

0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:03.600
<v Speaker 6>and he said, a Russian bot didn't tell my granny

0:58:03.680 --> 0:58:06.360
<v Speaker 6>to vote for Brexits, and that was his why this

0:58:06.480 --> 0:58:08.520
<v Speaker 6>is all a load of rubbish and it just like

0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:11.479
<v Speaker 6>it the way that the different ways that there's sort

0:58:11.480 --> 0:58:15.440
<v Speaker 6>of these mechanized forms work and now so much more

0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:17.960
<v Speaker 6>sophisticated because of AI. Is a lot of what they're

0:58:18.000 --> 0:58:21.760
<v Speaker 6>doing is manipulating reality. So the cast on Twitter would

0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:26.480
<v Speaker 6>be those nameless people and things they would like, you know,

0:58:26.560 --> 0:58:31.000
<v Speaker 6>they'd glom onto different hashtags. You get the hashtags to

0:58:31.040 --> 0:58:34.480
<v Speaker 6>trend and then and then real people look to see

0:58:34.520 --> 0:58:37.520
<v Speaker 6>what's happening. It's ways, you know, there's lots of different

0:58:37.560 --> 0:58:43.960
<v Speaker 6>ways of manipulating people's sentiments and we don't realize it's invisible,

0:58:44.040 --> 0:58:47.040
<v Speaker 6>but they do really impact things like the news agenda.

0:58:47.680 --> 0:58:50.400
<v Speaker 2>So here's a question for you, because I definitely have

0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:53.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, I come from internet circa nay, I come

0:58:53.680 --> 0:58:58.400
<v Speaker 2>from the nineties, right, and and what has happened with

0:58:58.480 --> 0:59:01.720
<v Speaker 2>me is I've just stopped trusting doing things I see online.

0:59:01.840 --> 0:59:03.880
<v Speaker 2>So if I see a picture of Donald Trump as

0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:06.760
<v Speaker 2>the pulp, I don't assume Donald Trump is the new

0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:10.320
<v Speaker 2>pulp because I know that there's and you know, AI

0:59:10.480 --> 0:59:12.840
<v Speaker 2>looks a little different. You can tell what it is.

0:59:13.200 --> 0:59:17.440
<v Speaker 2>But is that isn't that what everyone is just going

0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:21.400
<v Speaker 2>to not trust anything because there's no fact checking.

0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:25.640
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, that's and that's what we're seeing happening. I mean,

0:59:26.080 --> 0:59:30.800
<v Speaker 6>that's where and this loss of trust which goes along

0:59:30.840 --> 0:59:32.720
<v Speaker 6>with that is a loss of trust in everything, isn't

0:59:32.760 --> 0:59:36.080
<v Speaker 6>It's a loss of trust in institutions, It's a lot

0:59:36.160 --> 0:59:39.600
<v Speaker 6>of trust in news organizations with it, It's a lot

0:59:39.720 --> 0:59:43.280
<v Speaker 6>of trust in you know, government bodies. This is across

0:59:43.360 --> 0:59:48.600
<v Speaker 6>the board. And you know that's that in itself is terrifying,

0:59:48.640 --> 0:59:51.000
<v Speaker 6>isn't it? And you know, this is where I sort

0:59:51.000 --> 0:59:55.040
<v Speaker 6>of say, it's that we these terms which we started

0:59:55.120 --> 1:00:00.600
<v Speaker 6>learning in twenty and sixteen, misinformation and disinformation, like that's

1:00:00.800 --> 1:00:04.440
<v Speaker 6>gone like forget that now like this is you know,

1:00:04.480 --> 1:00:07.480
<v Speaker 6>I sort of talk about sort of total information collapse

1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:13.920
<v Speaker 6>like this now we are in total information chaos and

1:00:14.120 --> 1:00:16.720
<v Speaker 6>that's you know, it's it's it's it's why it's so

1:00:17.200 --> 1:00:20.040
<v Speaker 6>hard for any of us to like process and navigate

1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:23.280
<v Speaker 6>what on earth is going on, because we just face

1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:28.720
<v Speaker 6>this chaotic cacophony of voices and noise and you know,

1:00:28.920 --> 1:00:36.120
<v Speaker 6>funny memes and cat video and but you know, weirdly, Molly,

1:00:36.240 --> 1:00:39.120
<v Speaker 6>I actually do feel like there is something here which

1:00:39.400 --> 1:00:43.360
<v Speaker 6>gives me. It's bizarre, how like more optimistic I am

1:00:43.400 --> 1:00:47.040
<v Speaker 6>at the moment than I will meet because now that

1:00:47.120 --> 1:00:49.320
<v Speaker 6>we can see the problem, and now we can see

1:00:49.320 --> 1:00:53.760
<v Speaker 6>the crisis, we can actually now start thinking about solutions.

1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:55.960
<v Speaker 6>That's the thing. And so it is this like out

1:00:56.000 --> 1:00:59.480
<v Speaker 6>of crisis comes opportunities. So for me, and it's kind

1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:02.240
<v Speaker 6>of what I've a particular skin in this game. But

1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:06.560
<v Speaker 6>for me, what's now so important is that we have

1:01:06.640 --> 1:01:10.960
<v Speaker 6>to build proper independent media that people trust. Right, And

1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.600
<v Speaker 6>we've seen the way that these big corporates, you know

1:01:14.800 --> 1:01:17.960
<v Speaker 6>in America bowing down to Trump. They you know, they

1:01:18.000 --> 1:01:20.640
<v Speaker 6>can't stand up things They've got, you know, their theme

1:01:20.720 --> 1:01:21.880
<v Speaker 6>park to worry about.

1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:26.120
<v Speaker 7>Right, and their space stuffing Molly is to you, aren't

1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:28.600
<v Speaker 7>they like this is the kind of this is where

1:01:28.800 --> 1:01:32.400
<v Speaker 7>the you know, actually you've got to be out there,

1:01:33.080 --> 1:01:35.720
<v Speaker 7>like being popular than Joe Rogan Molly.

1:01:35.800 --> 1:01:36.919
<v Speaker 6>That is now your job.

1:01:38.800 --> 1:01:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I have to tell you. The funniest part though, just

1:01:41.280 --> 1:01:45.520
<v Speaker 2>on this information idea is I started putting on Instagram

1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:48.840
<v Speaker 2>like tweets that I thought were important for people because

1:01:48.840 --> 1:01:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I knew that there were a lot of people who

1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:53.080
<v Speaker 2>couldn't stay on Twitter anymore and that there were things

1:01:53.080 --> 1:01:55.320
<v Speaker 2>that were relevant and important that they might never see.

1:01:55.360 --> 1:01:58.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is the fundamental problem. So I started

1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:00.840
<v Speaker 2>putting them on Instagram. And I was at White House

1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:04.560
<v Speaker 2>Correspondence weekend like two weeks ago, and a number of

1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:10.040
<v Speaker 2>like real television people like anchors and you know whatever

1:02:10.160 --> 1:02:17.160
<v Speaker 2>intellect We're like, I find your Instagram very useful. But

1:02:17.280 --> 1:02:19.800
<v Speaker 2>that's because like the problem is, we don't have a

1:02:19.840 --> 1:02:24.160
<v Speaker 2>great aggregation entering anymore. Yes, so it is like we

1:02:24.240 --> 1:02:26.920
<v Speaker 2>are like it's and unless you spend twelve hours a

1:02:27.000 --> 1:02:30.680
<v Speaker 2>day online, which luckily I do, you don't have like

1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:35.000
<v Speaker 2>a pastisee yeah, of everything that is happening. So you

1:02:35.120 --> 1:02:38.760
<v Speaker 2>miss like, you know, you miss Elon Musk melting down

1:02:38.920 --> 1:02:44.600
<v Speaker 2>about his you know, possible child with the possible influencer,

1:02:44.640 --> 1:02:46.400
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. You miss all of that,

1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:49.080
<v Speaker 2>and then you'll see something else and it won't make

1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:51.320
<v Speaker 2>sense because you won't have the entire story.

1:02:52.160 --> 1:02:55.080
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, that's so funny because my first Instagram post was

1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:58.920
<v Speaker 6>like a screenshot of my tweet. Okay, Yeah, it was

1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:00.840
<v Speaker 6>very funny because a friend saw it and she was like,

1:03:01.040 --> 1:03:02.960
<v Speaker 6>she was like no, she was like, no, you need

1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:05.480
<v Speaker 6>to be like you need to be showing your eyebrows

1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:08.400
<v Speaker 6>and like doing a selfie with like and I was like.

1:03:08.440 --> 1:03:18.440
<v Speaker 2>No, anyway, is culture is downstream of politics. Politics culture discussed.

1:03:18.760 --> 1:03:20.840
<v Speaker 6>So this was yeah. So I used this line in

1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:25.160
<v Speaker 6>my Ted talk, which is Steve, I say, Steve Bannon's.

1:03:24.880 --> 1:03:27.600
<v Speaker 2>Bannon, but it's really from bray Bar. It's from me.

1:03:28.120 --> 1:03:32.480
<v Speaker 6>It's I think this thing which is that most people

1:03:32.680 --> 1:03:37.360
<v Speaker 6>honestly don't care about politics, and but yet you know

1:03:37.440 --> 1:03:40.440
<v Speaker 6>they're not watching the political news, they're not watching the

1:03:40.480 --> 1:03:44.480
<v Speaker 6>political pundits. This isn't where the important stuff is being discussed,

1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:48.560
<v Speaker 6>but where the thing which ahead of the you know,

1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:53.200
<v Speaker 6>the election, the us that it's the podcast bros, like

1:03:53.280 --> 1:03:57.160
<v Speaker 6>it's the YouTube bros. And at the moment those bros

1:03:57.360 --> 1:04:02.120
<v Speaker 6>who are on browie platforms with algorithms built by bros

1:04:02.640 --> 1:04:08.600
<v Speaker 6>to which prioritizes bro content, that is where the sort

1:04:08.600 --> 1:04:12.840
<v Speaker 6>of conversation is. That's where the dial is shifting, and

1:04:12.920 --> 1:04:16.160
<v Speaker 6>that is culture, and that for me is the sort

1:04:16.160 --> 1:04:18.320
<v Speaker 6>of key thing about it. To go back to the

1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:23.160
<v Speaker 6>tech of it, right, which is the YouTube algorithm, kind

1:04:23.160 --> 1:04:25.800
<v Speaker 6>of terrifies me in that way. YouTube is the round

1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:28.760
<v Speaker 6>zero of the manosphere, and misogyny is wrapped up in

1:04:28.880 --> 1:04:31.920
<v Speaker 6>everything that we're seeing now. But I feel that like

1:04:32.000 --> 1:04:35.000
<v Speaker 6>in order to reclaim that space, we need people like

1:04:35.160 --> 1:04:40.000
<v Speaker 6>you out talking to and for as many people listening

1:04:40.000 --> 1:04:43.080
<v Speaker 6>to you as possible. And yeah, we have to in

1:04:43.200 --> 1:04:46.160
<v Speaker 6>order to reclaim the politics, we need to kind of

1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.000
<v Speaker 6>first regain the culture. And part of the way that

1:04:49.040 --> 1:04:51.760
<v Speaker 6>we have to reclaim the culture, the long view is

1:04:52.120 --> 1:04:55.240
<v Speaker 6>we need to build better platforms which are not owned

1:04:55.400 --> 1:04:59.440
<v Speaker 6>by these terrible Silicon Valley tech companies. That's a long yep.

1:05:01.120 --> 1:05:04.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm so excited, thank you, thank you, thank you. This

1:05:04.280 --> 1:05:08.040
<v Speaker 2>was amazing. I really appreciate you just exactly what I

1:05:08.040 --> 1:05:10.880
<v Speaker 2>want to talk about. So thank you, thank you for having.

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<v Speaker 6>Me on and I really forward to seeing you in

1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:15.360
<v Speaker 6>London and talking about your.

1:05:15.240 --> 1:05:23.160
<v Speaker 2>Book now perfectly, Jesse Cannon.

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<v Speaker 3>PI judged fast. Who would have thought that the Supreme

1:05:27.240 --> 1:05:30.760
<v Speaker 3>Court repealing the Voting Rights Act back in the day

1:05:31.480 --> 1:05:34.360
<v Speaker 3>would not go so well and things would be bad.

1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:37.160
<v Speaker 2>I would not have thought that. I actually would have

1:05:37.160 --> 1:05:40.280
<v Speaker 2>thought that. I am not surprised if Federal court ruled

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<v Speaker 2>Thursday that Alabama engaged in intentional discrimination when it refused

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<v Speaker 2>to draw a congressional plan with a second black majority district.

1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:53.680
<v Speaker 2>After courts, including the Supreme Court, repeatedly rejected maps with

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<v Speaker 2>one such district when the finding the courts that it

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<v Speaker 2>would consider whether to put by the way Alabama is

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<v Speaker 2>this is they are fuck it. I mean, let's just

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<v Speaker 2>look at the Alabama senators for a minute. Okay, Tommy Tuberville, Right,

1:06:09.880 --> 1:06:14.000
<v Speaker 2>that guy he didn't even live in Alabama, Right, he

1:06:14.120 --> 1:06:18.640
<v Speaker 2>lives somewhere else. Tommy Tubervel, Katie britt Right, Alabama is

1:06:18.680 --> 1:06:22.360
<v Speaker 2>a super diverse state. These Republicans are just trying to

1:06:22.400 --> 1:06:26.600
<v Speaker 2>hold onto power here. Of course, they're jerrymandering, they're trying

1:06:26.600 --> 1:06:29.760
<v Speaker 2>to hold onto power. They're doing all of the tricks

1:06:29.800 --> 1:06:33.320
<v Speaker 2>that we know so well, and it's just, you know,

1:06:33.400 --> 1:06:37.240
<v Speaker 2>there we go. So the Voting Rights Act opened, you know,

1:06:37.600 --> 1:06:40.360
<v Speaker 2>this is Roberts. Roberts is how we got here, right,

1:06:40.440 --> 1:06:43.280
<v Speaker 2>cutting away at the Voting Rights Act, this is how

1:06:43.280 --> 1:06:47.720
<v Speaker 2>we got here. So if Democrats win back the political zeitgeist,

1:06:47.760 --> 1:06:52.080
<v Speaker 2>we're going to need desperately to enact anti corruption laws.

1:06:52.120 --> 1:06:56.440
<v Speaker 2>We're going to need desperately to end partisan jerrymandering. It

1:06:56.640 --> 1:06:59.880
<v Speaker 2>is the moment for them. That's it for this episode

1:07:00.240 --> 1:07:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday

1:07:07.160 --> 1:07:10.480
<v Speaker 2>to hear the best minds and politics make sense of

1:07:10.800 --> 1:07:15.040
<v Speaker 2>all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, please send

1:07:15.040 --> 1:07:18.720
<v Speaker 2>it to a friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks

1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:19.440
<v Speaker 2>for listening.