WEBVTT - How Hollywood's Top Films Benefit From Audience Testing Revealed in New Book 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.840 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast where 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:13.800 we talk with some of the brightest minds working in 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:18.040 the media business. Today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein with Variety. We'd 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.480 like to think of films we watch as the singular 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:24.639 vision of uncompromising artists. But there's a movie playing at 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.000 your local cineplex. Chances are the studio behind it showed 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.880 it to a test audience before its release and made 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.479 changes based on their input. The art and science of 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.000 conducting this kind of research is the subject of a 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.000 new book, Audience Ology, from Kevin Gets, who has been 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.320 at the forefront of audience testing for more than thirty years. 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.159 Coming up next, we'll learn from the master on this 0:00:47.240 --> 0:01:00.440 episode of Strictly Business. Welcome back to straight Lead Business, 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.000 where I'm talking to Kevin Gets, author of the new 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:07.039 book Audience Ology. He's the founder and CEO of Screen 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.720 Engine a s I, a leading specialist in audience testing 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:14.039 for movies. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Kevin. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:16.080 Thanks for taking the time to talk to me today. Kevin, 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:20.160 it's my absolute pleasure. I'm thrilled to be here, Andrew Great, 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.640 So what struck me most about reading your book was 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.639 I could never do your job in a million years 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.560 because you have to do something that's exceedingly difficult. You 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:34.600 have to tell very powerful people that what they've worked 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.880 so hard on for years has flaws that they're not seeing. 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.520 I mean that's like telling a parent their child is ugly. 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.840 How do you do this? What is you know? What 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.800 is your style? When you're sort of breaking what could 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:53.680 be bad news to important executives and artists, Well, you're 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.880 exactly right, that's that's what it is. I often feel 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.920 like the doctor coming out and having to give the 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:05.200 prognosis or the diagnosis. And you know, often it's if 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:10.480 you don't change the d n A of your um 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:17.720 of your child, uh, you're going to have UM he 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:19.600 or she is going to have a very rough life, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:24.520 or your child is absolutely nearly perfect and don't do 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:31.480 a thing. Uh. But I always adopt this attitude of 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:38.680 finding the thing that is special or terrific about a movie. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:43.000 And there's always something. There's always something, and it could be, 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.360 you know, the passion behind it. It could be the 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:51.880 fact that there's tremendous goodwill and uh, there could be 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:58.480 a reason that is a filmmaking style, and I'll focus 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.239 on that so that people really will tune in and 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:07.000 listen to the next part of the conversation, which is 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.480 often the hard truth. So it sounds like you're more 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.640 of a diplomat, then say, I I wondered if you 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.400 were almost more like a Simon Cowell type that you know, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.640 here's the blunt truth, no matter what the damage. But 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.120 you're not that well. I kind of am known for 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.799 my candor quite frankly, but candor with kindness I think 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.000 would be how people would describe me and my post 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:36.040 mortems or my after post discussions after the screenings. I 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:42.200 will also mentioned that it's important to understand that as 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.440 a as an artist myself, as somebody who comes from 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:52.280 a creative background and understands the language of film, I 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:57.480 can speak to filmmakers, particularly filmmakers in a certain way 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:02.120 that they can hear. I don't come out like waving 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.920 a report card or coming out and saying you know, 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.520 this is how it is, this is the truth. I'm 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.640 coming out and I'm I'm less of a diplomat, more 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.080 of a conciliary or a or or trying to be 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.800 a partner to them and say, look, I understand this 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.920 is your baby and there's a sensitivity I think bring 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.440 to the table. I'd like to think I do. Sure. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:31.080 In this book, you interview many of the top studio executives, producers, 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.440 directors you've worked with over the years. Jason blom, Ron Howard, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.760 Chris Mellodandry writes the forward just to name a few. 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.240 Uh So, it's it's not just this book is not 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.320 just about hearing from you about how important audience testing is, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.600 but from the people that hand their movies over to you. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.680 And so I was curious, was it difficult to get 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.039 them to even speak in this book? Given so much 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.280 about this kind of research, it's pretty shrouded in secrecy. 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.680 It's a great question because it was challenging. First of all, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.120 I can't reveal many of the truths that are in 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:11.040 the book because I'm under strict confidentiality agreements. And if 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.039 I still knowing, if I still wanted a business that 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:18.039 was that people could trust me, and and and and 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.240 knew that I was not going to talk out of school. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.520 Other people had to tell their stories, if you will, 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:32.360 with my commentary mixed in throughout. But yeah, you know, um, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:38.760 studio executives were probably the least transparent producers were probably 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:44.239 the most transparent, and also directors studio executives for obvious reasons. 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.240 I mean, they don't they want to and need to, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.719 particularly if they're still working, need to be more diplomatic. 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:57.880 The directors and producers typically are had shown more candor 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:03.760 and more more wearing their sort of emotions on their sleeve, 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.239 if you will, and if they were better interviews. Quite frankly, 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.480 which isn't to say that this is I wouldn't call 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.720 this a dishy book, because yes, you are somewhat restricted 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:15.640 in what you could say. As I read this, I 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.360 kind of felt to myself, there's probably a whole other 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:22.200 book will never get to read that has so much 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.800 of what you can say. Nevertheless, there's still a lot 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.320 of meat on the bone. You are. You actually get 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.719 into a lot of movies and what they could have 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.680 looked like were it not for your intervention. I'm thinking 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.279 about so many anecdotes in this book about Fatal Attraction, 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:45.560 Thelma and Louise, Monster in Law Cocktail. Uh, you know, 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.760 how are you even able to get that much out there? 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:54.720 I wondered? The truth is is that, oh boy, I 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:59.520 could have chosen uh, any number of movies to be 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:04.560 the sort of examples, right, But I chose some odd 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:09.360 movies and some really big movies and some small movies. Really, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:13.280 what is most important about the book is that these 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.680 examples of movies illustrate the points I'm trying to make 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:23.920 and the different different challenges and issues that arise during 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:29.240 the test screening process. Right. So that made it um 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.800 kind of an eclectic bunch of films. Sure, I mean, 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.680 and you know, you tell stories like this, You tell 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.280 like the Tom Cruise story, and it's an example of 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:43.000 how people in the creative community really appreciate what you do. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:45.800 But what I want to understand, and I'm not asking 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.440 you to name names here, is I'm curious to get 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:53.800 a sense of the proportion, meaning for every creative director, producer, whatnot, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.960 who really appreciates what you do, how many don't Because 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.200 I can imagine there's got to be people that just 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:06.480 don't believe in the testing process because they're artists. That's um. Probably, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.040 if I had to put a percentage to it, probably 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:19.120 probably one out of ten have a real disdain for it, 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:25.440 um and UM the rest tolerated. But I would say 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:31.680 that four or five out of ten really embrace it. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.840 And those are the filmmakers. Obviously I enjoy working with 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.480 most and many of those filmmakers are some of our 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.840 best filmmakers, are greatest filmmakers. They are not afraid to 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:50.160 hear the unfettered truth. It's a bit of a difficult 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.560 question for me to answer. I'd like to think I'm 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:57.360 very respected. I think I've earned that right in that place. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.800 And I gotta be honest. I like so many people 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.079 in our business, and I get along with so many 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.959 of them. I love this business. I breathe it. I've 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.080 devoted my life to it for thirty five years. And 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.200 you know, the people in it who have gotten these 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:26.160 very you know, specific and difficult jobs to land are 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.200 super talented, like they don't get it for you know, 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.000 every now and then someone fails upwards, as they say, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:38.320 but essentially these people are the best of the best, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:46.040 and there's a trust and a sense of of of 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:53.200 you know, deep appreciation for everyone succeeding that. They know 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:57.640 my heart and my head, and my intentions are always 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.680 to get them to that place. I don't have some 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.120 great intention where I have to take credit for something. 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.600 I am like a channel er or you know, two 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:13.880 from the audience, to the to the filmmaker or the studio. 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:16.920 We're talking to Kevin gets author of the new book 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:34.320 Audience Oology, will be back in just a minute, and 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.280 we're back with more with Kevin Gets. He is the 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:41.840 CEO and founder of the company screen Engine a s 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.600 I and the author of a new book all about 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.480 movie audience testing called audience Ology. Kevin, I'm curious, do 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.320 you ever encounter movies where there's just nothing that can 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.160 be done, it's beyond repair and you're putting a position 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.480 to have to say something like that, or is there 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.320 always a bright side? Ah? Wow, it's a it's a 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:08.600 terrific question. Andrew again, and yes, it happens. Usually it 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.480 happens because there is a flaw in the d n 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.960 A of the movie. Okay, it happens because it was 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.880 ill conceived in some form of fashion. It was, um, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:28.400 it was from the get go a flawed character. It 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:32.040 was from the get go it had a structure and 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.600 uh stakes that were not high enough for strong enough 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:41.520 to propel the movie. And it's really difficult to shoot, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:47.120 re shoot, shoot around that, cut around that. Those are 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:52.840 the most difficult conversations because the studios are so good 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.960 at what they do and are they don't. They usually 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:02.720 make movies that are an A, A B grade more 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.320 than a C D R in F. A lot of 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.800 the independence make more of a C D R F 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.720 than they ever make a's or B s. And I 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:14.480 use this because we use normative data to to sort 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.240 of benchmark everything right, and a norm is a C 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:23.480 A C grade And most studio movies test norms or 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:30.280 above because there's so much, so many resources, maybe the 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:35.640 greatest talent, whatever it may be, those and the development 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.560 folks and production folks who are involved in those uh, 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.960 creates a much better chance of success. And usually you 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.000 don't have major DNA problems with studios. You do with 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.480 some of the indies who are more tour in in 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:56.240 sort of in a way and are have done something 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.400 that is a quote unquote passion project. Uh. You know, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.480 I have a saying and this is important and worthy, 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:08.599 and I think this might also speak to why um 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:14.320 uh most people that are creatives, UM listen to what 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.040 I have to say. Every movie, if made and marketed 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.760 for the right price, should make money. And when I 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.920 say that, here's what I mean. If you understand before 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.800 you shoot a frame of film before those cameras roll. 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.119 You know what you have, and you've sized your audience 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:41.400 correctly as well as you can and comp the movie correctly. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:47.320 It's very difficult to fail. The problem is is that 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.920 most people don't know how to go about this. Most 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.520 people don't know how to assess the size of their 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.200 audience going in. Most people don't know how to assess 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.800 truly comp a movie correctly. They compet to what they 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.680 think is aspirational company. They want it to be this. 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.040 But it's not that we're having this conversation at a 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.440 time where the movie business is really going through a 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:14.800 big transition. Uh. Quite simply, many movies aren't viewed in 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.760 theaters anymore. You got it, You got it? So what 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.640 does that mean for your business? Tremendous impact. So we 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.880 also measure what the we call it, I guess theatrical 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:32.760 worthiness is of a movie prior to shooting the film, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:38.880 because you obviously can not understand the the visual elements 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.000 are going to be, what the chemistry is going to be, 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.680 all of those things, But you can assess enough to say, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:51.440 does this have the innate ingredients to warrant a theatrical 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:57.880 or should this go more towards a streaming situation. I 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:02.840 love streaming movies. I and more right now seeing more 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.400 content online like many of us are not just because 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:11.240 of of the pandemic, but there's just so many, so 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.040 much good stuff out there, you know, and to be 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.600 able to advise a client early on that this is 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.680 the right path versus this is a big economic distinction, 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.000 isn't it. Because a movie that is going theatrical from 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.720 its from the inception has to also account for the 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.040 tremendo sign to that movie. But if you go in 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.120 with the notion that this is really a movie that's 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.720 going to be on a streamer, you cannot make it 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.480 for the same price necessarily. Necessarily if you're hoping to 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.280 sell it to the stream of the streamers have their 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.640 own algorithms. I'm talking about people that are sort of 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.000 selling it to a streamer. Those economics are very different. 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.760 So you've got to know what you have and if 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.840 you do, that's why you'll you'll you most likely be successful. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.360 That's why I'm a big proponent right now, the studios 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.840 bifer k eating themselves truly within production departments, knowing that 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:10.120 you know you have a you have one um kind 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.920 of movie that has a clearer path this way, and 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.080 one different movie that has a clearer path this way. 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.040 Now that doesn't mean that once the movie that was 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.320 relegated to be the streamer. Uh. And now you test 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.640 it and it tests incredibly well, and the recruit ratio, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.120 the number of people it takes to to get one 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:35.160 person into a seat is not particularly difficult. Uh. And 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.760 you've also cut a trailer and found out that people 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.200 are gaga over it. Suddenly you have all these different 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:46.920 elements that might speak to a theatrical release. Well, in 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.760 that case, go to the studio and make a case, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.360 a business case of why this should go theatrical, not 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.160 the other way around, because it's very hard to really say, well, 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.680 we're not going to go theatrical on this one, because 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.200 typically many people have made that movie for too much 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.719 money and sort of have to then go on and 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.960 carry it through. If that makes sense, Andrew absolutely, And 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.480 you know, look, you have this process that's pretty tried 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.400 and true in theaters, people, you know, filling out forms 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.360 and saying what they like. I've read a bit over 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.480 the years though about like neurological tools that could be 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:29.840 used to assess reactions heart rate, where people's eyes are 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:31.600 are we ever going to get to a place where 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.879 testing will will go that route? Well, we're there, We're there. 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.160 We um two things I'll mention on that. First of all, 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:46.520 we biometrics is the name of the area. And I 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:51.240 am a big believer in anything that can help my 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:56.560 clients get better information and tell a better story. So 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:01.520 biometrics in and by themselves, in and of themselves enough 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:07.080 itself usually doesn't tell a full enough story. We have 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.679 dials that we use mostly in the television business and 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:19.119 in shorter content that's sort of conscious um, you know, measurement, 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:25.360 along with questionnaires, et cetera. That alone doesn't tell the story. 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:30.160 But when you overlay these things and add them together, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.960 it tells a very rich story. So our dial testing 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.720 facility is really successful because of that, and so many 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:44.080 television programs on the streamers and and H linear networks 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.439 and cable stations and cable networks all participate in this. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.960 We also have added a bracelet similar to a fitbit 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.879 that was invented by Sony Electronics who came to me 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.639 and said, we would like you, we would like to 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.120 partner with you and do this biometric exercise. We've been 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:06.119 beta testing for a while and we made a deal 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.919 and so, in partnership with Sony Electronics Screen Engine a 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:16.440 SI is now adding a biometric technique to flesh out 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.600 the stories in a more complete way. And in fact, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.399 they measure sort of a galvanic skin response or a 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:29.280 kind of a pulse heart rate, a facial recognition, and 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.320 an audio recognition, all of those things and you don't 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.440 even know what's on you, so it's not like you've 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:40.120 got wires coming out, and you know, it's very, very scalable. 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:46.639 So we use this with our um findings to round 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.600 out the story and it's very fascinating what you see 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.399 because sometimes someone will say something like, you know, I 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.560 didn't like that sex scene. Uh, and in fact, the 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.679 numbers are going crazy subconsciously because they're really invested in it, 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.680 and you go, okay, you know, you know you've heard. 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.439 I've used this example a lot, like I didn't like 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.560 a sleepwalking scene in McBeth, you know, and it's like, 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:12.480 what are you gonna cut the scene? Walk? Sleepwalkings some 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.720 of the most famous scenes in the history of What 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.040 they really saying is I didn't like the lead up, 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:22.600 I didn't like the way it it was maybe it 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:27.320 was overwrought, but you have to know this is the 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.240 part of the sensitivity of what I do. I've got 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:35.560 to do earnestly give the best information. It's not oh yeah, 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.520 we like these scenes. We don't like these scenes. It's 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.800 more than that, it's why are they saying that? What's 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:46.960 behind it? And to your point, the biometrics and the dials, 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.719 and then the discussion groups, the qualitative exercises that we do, 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.600 the focus groups we do after screenings all give color 0:20:56.040 --> 0:21:01.080 to the story, to the quantitative research. Does that make sense? 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.960 It does? About too technical here? No, No, It's an 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.560 interesting walk through of all the different tools. But I'm 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.480 curious about, though, is at the end of the day, 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:20.320 in going into two, does every single movie, whether studio 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:24.920 or indie, have testing in it? Um you know? Or 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:29.040 could you ballpark it? Well, it's just some this studio 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.040 baby doesn't do any of this. I'm just curious to 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.199 get a sense of how crucial these tools are to 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:41.680 the average movie. Well, most movies test, not all, though 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:49.560 not all. There's a few filmmakers, uh that don't test, 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:53.320 and they I can count them on one hand. And 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:55.639 were you to disclose who they were, My guess is 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.359 we'd both be wearing cement shoes at the bottom of 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:07.399 the But I don't. I don't obviously share their um 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:11.800 their opinions about that. Many of the films that I've 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:16.000 seen that come from some filmmakers who don't test UM 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:20.560 could have really been um. Their movies could have been 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:28.720 benefited greatly by audience test research. Again, it's not. Maybe 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:32.600 in the wrong hands, you can, you can work with 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:37.480 folks who can dumb it down and make it very base. 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.280 But we work in a very sophisticated way at Screen 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.600 Engine a SI and and I take it very seriously. 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.960 So nothing is just well, they didn't you know, it's 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.560 a romantic comedy. They need more comedy, needs more romance. 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:56.560 I mean, like, that's not what it's about. So so 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:02.119 going back to your question, ninety five of every movie 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:08.160 that's widely released in Hollywood goes through a test and 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:11.560 we do a lion share of that work. So we 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.760 work with every everyone, uh and every studio and and 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:23.920 service subscription service, and you know, the script subscription services 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:30.680 are less concerned about the numbers because the legs, which 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:35.800 is really what everyone is chasing. Explain what you mean 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:40.560 by legs. The legs mean the longevity, the longevity of 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.560 how a movie stays in a theater, how long a 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:47.399 movie stays in a theater. And that's based on the 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:50.320 word of mouth or the what we call the all 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:54.919 important definite recommend we ask audiences. We ask the questionnaires, 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:58.879 would you definitely recommend this? Probably recommended? Probably not, are 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:01.480 definitely not? And was? Who say definitely? Is the only 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:04.720 box we really look at. We've actually added measurements to 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:10.440 define with indefinite, what's the passion or advocacy index within 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:14.200 that score, which we are doing with some clients because 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:17.520 everyone likes everything and a lot of people will say definite, 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:21.120 but they don't necessarily mean that's a call to action. 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:23.720 So we're trying to gauge what's that call to action? 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:25.879 Will I actually leave my home and go see this 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.560 for example? So those that word of mouth is so 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:32.919 very important. It's also important in the streaming services streaming 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:37.000 world or for the streaming services as well, but the 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:41.880 cadence of the distribution pattern is so different that it's 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:47.880 not as crucial as a full out theatrical um run, 0:24:47.920 --> 0:24:51.480 where you're so dependent on your multiple Meaning if a 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:55.359 if a movie opens at say ten million dollars, and 0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:58.439 you have three times multiple, does thirty million dollars in 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.480 its domestic life for EXA Apple. Right, If the numbers, 0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:05.440 let's say, are twenty points above the norm, so you're 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:08.000 in a B plus A minus category, you may be 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:13.840 looking at a four times multiple, which would be substantially higher, 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:21.520 right or or or substantially more successful financially than if 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:23.800 you were twenty points below the norm and you may 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:28.000 only have a two times multiple. Because there's a direct 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:35.200 correlation between the multiple full of a movie and it's playability. 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:39.320 Definitely recommend word of mouth score. We don't do this 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.639 to torture filmmakers. There is an actual business sense behind this. 0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:47.080 We were trying to get and milk as much as 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:49.960 we can out of something. Now there comes a time 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:55.200 often where I'll say, you know, I believe you've gone 0:25:56.400 --> 0:25:59.359 the die is cast. In another word, the DNA of 0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.399 this movie is what it is. I mentioned that a 0:26:01.440 --> 0:26:05.000 few times during this conversation. The DNA, So it's it's 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:08.360 it is. It is set, and so you really are 0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:12.600 not going to ever get change the the nature of 0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:16.840 the movie. Um, and that comes from usually the issues 0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:20.880 that I mentioned earlier that they're just you can't make 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:27.520 chemistry right. You can't often can't reshoot chemistry, does that 0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:31.920 make sense? But you can reshoot an ending that feels 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:37.080 like you haven't completely satisfied an audience because they're let 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:40.800 down both Maybe they're intellectually not let down, but emotionally 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:43.560 they're let down and they need that extra punch at 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:48.480 the end. Sometimes it's literally punch, you know. One last 0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:52.439 question for you personally, I wonder are you able to 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.040 just enjoy a movie or can you ever quite take 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:59.479 your sort of audience testing hat and just be an 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:03.960 average movie fan? Oh no, no, no, I can never be. 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:06.320 I wouldn't even know how to how to answer that. 0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:10.680 I am. I have a wonderful theater in my own home, 0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.880 and I have to say when I bring my friends 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:19.000 and and and family and to watch a movie at home, 0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:25.240 I'm looking at them and watching their reactions. The highest 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:28.640 compliment I can always give is when I have a 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:32.960 degree of emerged immersion, immersion where I forget to look 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:37.440 at the audience. When I test a movie, I sit 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:42.320 in the aisle where people enter on a on a 0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:46.600 folding chair. I don't sit within the audience because I 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.879 spend my head. I have I think I must have 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:53.640 really strong neck muscles because I'm moving back and forth 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:58.840 looking at the audience, trying to gauge uh implicit response, 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:03.520 anecdotal information that I can add again color to the 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:06.520 reporting that I that I give the clients. And there's 0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:11.640 a lot you can learn from watching folks, so uh yeah. 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:14.600 And also the temperature of the theater. I'm always uh, 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:17.199 you know, it's too warm, it's too cold. You know, 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:19.880