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Speaker 1: He agreed to meet us for lunch, and it was

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Speaker 1: one of the most awkward things you could imagine. A

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Speaker 1: young man that you raised for twenty five years and

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Speaker 1: he could barely look at us in the eye.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 2: jessicasiveto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the

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Speaker 2: Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored

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Speaker 2: the story of Robert Schin, the La based Chakaina Church

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Speaker 2: and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two

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Speaker 2: decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is named

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Speaker 2: in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Kalia Gray, former member of Chaicina Church and

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Speaker 3: Seven M Films.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, Mgdalia Riano opens up about the heartbreaking

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Speaker 2: journey of her son, Nick's involvement with Chakaina Church in

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Speaker 2: Seven M Films, detailing the trouble changes she witnessed in

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Speaker 2: him over the years. She shares how Nick's love for

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Speaker 2: dance led him to the church, but soon the group's

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Speaker 2: emotional and financial manipulation began to tear apart. His connection

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Speaker 2: with his family mcdalia also discusses her relentless efforts to

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Speaker 2: reconnect with her son, expose the church's harmful practices, and

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Speaker 2: navigate the frustrating legal barriers in her quest for justice.

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Speaker 2: Through her powerful personal story, mcdalia offers invaluable insight and

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Speaker 2: hope for other families struggling with dangers of high controlled groups.

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Speaker 3: After we recently received a letter from one of our

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Speaker 3: past guests, Amanda, a letter from decades ago that parallels

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Speaker 3: the experiences many families are feeling currently, we felt it

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Speaker 3: was important to give the perspective of the families affected,

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Speaker 3: their heartbreak and hope. Now our conversation with mgdalia.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to another episode of Forgive Me For I

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Speaker 2: have followed. Before we get into our interview with mcdhalia,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that kind of sparked this conversation

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Speaker 2: was Amanda, who we had on a previous episode text

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Speaker 2: Us and had said that her dad found this letter

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Speaker 2: that he wrote in two thousand and four, and that

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Speaker 2: letter was to Amanda's aunt. At that time, Amanda was

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Speaker 2: still in Chicaina, and so we thought we would start

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Speaker 2: this episode by reading that letter before we go into

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Speaker 2: the conversation with Mcdaalia.

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Speaker 3: So the letter starts, Dear Sylvia, just want to take

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Speaker 3: a few minutes to thank you for your prayerful concern.

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Speaker 4: Over a Mandy.

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Speaker 3: Minnie and I have continued to pray for her every

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Speaker 3: Sunday morning. We pray and fast together. We are praying

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Speaker 3: that God will remove that pastor and disband that church.

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Speaker 3: We are set and to know, many people, mostly young,

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Speaker 3: are being robbed of their time, money, and relationships. While

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Speaker 3: I am more and more concerned with the ongoing distance

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Speaker 3: that has developed in our relationship with her, I am

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Speaker 3: confident that God is faithful. Though I have not studied

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Speaker 3: the faith movement thoroughly, what Minnie and I heard from

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Speaker 3: Mandy's pastor's own lips that Sunday morning we visited was

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Speaker 3: enough to convince me that his teachings are in air

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Speaker 3: and do not line up with the complete teachings and

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Speaker 3: revelations of God's Word. He told the congregation that he

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Speaker 3: was a millionaire and that he was working on becoming

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Speaker 3: a billionaire in order to demonstrate the power of God.

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Speaker 3: Then he added that we too could do the same.

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Speaker 3: He told us that he did not like Rolls Royce cars,

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Speaker 3: but he was going to have to get one for

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Speaker 3: the same reason. After showing the congregation his expensive ring,

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Speaker 3: he then told us that it did not mean much

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Speaker 3: to him and that he could easily toss it in

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Speaker 3: the trash. He told us that he had to wear

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Speaker 3: it in order to demonstrate the power of God in

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Speaker 3: his life. There were other things that raise suspicions in

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Speaker 3: my mind that this is a man that is so

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Speaker 3: full of himself and is using the office of a

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Speaker 3: pastor to satisfy his lust for power and self a

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Speaker 3: grand eye. For example, throughout his sermon, he was shown

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Speaker 3: on a large screen via camera to a church that

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Speaker 3: could not have been more than sixty in a room no.

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Speaker 4: Bigger than our house.

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Speaker 3: Just before he went up to preach, two men in

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Speaker 3: white gloves carried the pulpit and placed it in position

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Speaker 3: with the care one would expect to see if one

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Speaker 3: was moving the ark of the Covenant. The microphone, a

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Speaker 3: glass of water, and sermon notes were positioned with the

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Speaker 3: same exaggerated reverence. Equally troubling to me was the virtual

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Speaker 3: ananymmity hanging on every word he spoke, which elicited loud

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Speaker 3: responses sometimes asked for by him by the members there

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Speaker 3: was no doubt that the group saw this man as

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Speaker 3: a spokesman for God, who carried the authority that one

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Speaker 3: would expect to see when God did speak through a

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Speaker 3: prophet to his people. I did not want to argue

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Speaker 3: with Mandy over doctrines we have in the past. However,

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Speaker 3: I would like to ask her if she sees herself

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Speaker 3: better off now than just a year ago. She has

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Speaker 3: no car now and has not been a to continue

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Speaker 3: school for lack of money and transportation.

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Speaker 4: Where's the faith that is supposed to be working here.

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Speaker 3: This was the first year Minnie and I did not

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Speaker 3: receive a gift from her on Mother's Day or Father's Day,

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Speaker 3: not that we had to have one, you understand. I

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Speaker 3: am confident that the ties and bonds of her family

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Speaker 3: will serve to create a struggle between us and the

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Speaker 3: so called family of God that she is involved with.

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Speaker 3: That people can become mesmerized by an individual and give

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Speaker 3: total allegiance and money to him or her is not

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Speaker 3: new that Christians can also fall into the same bind.

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Speaker 3: He can do no wrong because he is a man

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Speaker 3: of God. Obedience is harder for me to understand, though

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Speaker 3: I know it has been a common trait throughout Christian history.

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Speaker 3: I can't help and ask myself, what was it about

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Speaker 3: our parenting or her personality that created the seed bed

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Speaker 3: for her to find those doctrines acceptable and believable. Is

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Speaker 3: it the same fleshly desire to have all things nice,

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Speaker 3: big things that we were all born with, but through

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Speaker 3: the power of deception made reasonable and biblical. What Father

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Speaker 3: would not want to bless his children with such good things?

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Speaker 3: The same old, live satan man wants to create God

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Speaker 3: in his own image and be just like God. I

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Speaker 3: have never heard Mandy speak of the sovereignty of God

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Speaker 3: since she has attended the church. I can go on

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Speaker 3: and on. I love Mandy very much and miss her terribly.

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Speaker 3: We will continue to love her and pray for her.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for your support and prayers in His grace.

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Speaker 1: JB.

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Speaker 2: Kaliah, thank you so much for reading that, and I've

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Speaker 2: read it a couple times and it gets me quite

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Speaker 2: emotional because you can feel the heaviness of a father

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Speaker 2: speaking to his sister, and so through the many conversations

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Speaker 2: that we have had, I'm so incredibly thankful to have

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Speaker 2: Mgdalia on this episode because I do know from our

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Speaker 2: conversations there are some parallels there, and so Mgdalia, thank

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Speaker 2: you for joining us on this episode.

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Speaker 1: How are you good? Thank you for having me good?

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Speaker 2: Do you mind if we just start by telling everyone

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Speaker 2: a little bit about Nick, his early life and his

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Speaker 2: passion for dance and what led him to move from

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Speaker 2: Atlanta to New York and then Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: Nick is my firstborn and his father was a baseball fanatic,

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Speaker 1: so naturally he started playing baseball probably when he was two,

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Speaker 1: and continued to play it through middle school into high

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Speaker 1: school at the varsity level. Somewhere between the end of

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Speaker 1: middle school and high school, he showed an interest in

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Speaker 1: dance and learned how to do all sorts of dances.

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Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to us, he would lock himself in his room

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Speaker 1: and we would hear all kinds of noises and we

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Speaker 1: knew something was going on, but he wouldn't tell us.

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Speaker 1: He said it was going to be a surprise. So

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Speaker 1: once he felt confident enough to come out and show us,

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Speaker 1: we were very amazed and we were like, Wow, that's

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Speaker 1: that's really talented. And he just continued to practice and

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Speaker 1: get better. And we are Catholic family. I want to

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Speaker 1: go back to that because it's very important that everyone

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Speaker 1: knows that Nick is a very spiritual person. Would go

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Speaker 1: to church together on Sundays, and somewhere around when he

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Speaker 1: had his confirmation, he began to go to meetings at

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Speaker 1: church to prepare for it and came home saying that

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Speaker 1: he was very inspired, he was mesmerized by the speaker,

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Speaker 1: and that it was something that really spoke to him

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Speaker 1: and that it was something that he would really like

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Speaker 1: to pursue, and had indicated to me that perhaps he

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Speaker 1: would want going to the priesthood, which was a surprise

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Speaker 1: because I had no expectation that he would come out

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Speaker 1: with that so young. I think he had just started

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Speaker 1: high school. Around that time, he became a peer minister

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Speaker 1: and was advising younger people on the church and the

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Speaker 1: confirmation process and what it all meant. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we supported it, but we were very insistent that he

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Speaker 1: finished his education and then decide what he wanted to

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Speaker 1: do next. He was actually studying for a business degree,

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Speaker 1: and we could tell that he wasn't happy doing that,

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Speaker 1: so I encouraged him to take dance classes, which made

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Speaker 1: him very happy. And then he discovered there was a

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Speaker 1: dance troupe in Atlanta that was very well known across

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Speaker 1: the world, and he started hanging out with them and

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Speaker 1: was just always a student learning from the better dancers

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Speaker 1: and just loved it and was with them for about

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Speaker 1: a couple of years and then decided that it was

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Speaker 1: time to move outside of the group and do something bigger.

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Speaker 1: And he had opportunity to do a movie as an

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Speaker 1: extra in New York, and we have family in New York,

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Speaker 1: so he had to move to be able to film

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Speaker 1: with them. Then, of course, other opportunities started coming along.

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Speaker 1: The audition to be part of the troop of the

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Speaker 1: Illusionists was there's a magic show that toured all across

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Speaker 1: the US and Canada, and whenever he had a day off,

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Speaker 1: he would go into a dance studio and give lessons

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Speaker 1: to young kids. And yeah, he absolutely loved what he

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Speaker 1: was doing. We knew he had found his true passion

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Speaker 1: in life. So he had always talked about going to

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Speaker 1: LA even when he was still in Atlanta. You know,

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Speaker 1: we were a little skittish about LA. We knew what

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Speaker 1: happens to people when they go to LA. Unfortunately, not

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Speaker 1: everybody makes it. It's a very difficult thing to get into.

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Speaker 1: But after about a year and a half in New York.

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Speaker 1: He was ready and he went without any plans, didn't

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Speaker 1: know where he was going to go, didn't know where

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Speaker 1: he's going to live. He happened to have a friend,

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Speaker 1: Matt Stefanina, who's very well known in the dance world.

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Speaker 1: And Matt said, I have a house, I got some

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Speaker 1: dancers that are moving in. Are you interested in being

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Speaker 1: part of that group? And that is when and it

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Speaker 1: all began because his roommate was James b. Dash and

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Speaker 1: they quickly became friends. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: he's doing Bible studies with him and telling me about

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Speaker 1: you know, because we had a great relationship. He used

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Speaker 1: to pick up the phone all the time. This is

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I'm so excited. Yeah, I was the

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Speaker 1: first one he would call, and just progress from there.

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Speaker 3: After the break, we continue our conversation with mcdalia. This

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Speaker 3: is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 2: back to our conversation with mcdalia.

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Speaker 3: Before we get into La and Reino's transition there, I

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Speaker 3: do want to kind of go back to the letter

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Speaker 3: that we read and get your initial reactions was there

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Speaker 3: anything that stood out to you while I was reading

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Speaker 3: the letter?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely. I immediately identified the narcissistic tendencies, so many

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Speaker 1: similarities between narcissism and high control groups. So I immediately

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Speaker 1: saw how special they made him feel, how holy they

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Speaker 1: treated him, and the belief that he was really sent

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Speaker 1: by God, and the holidays and birthdays that just came

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Speaker 1: and went without any kind of recognition. That was a

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Speaker 1: big heartbreak for us. We experienced that many times over. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Mother's day's, Father's day's, birthdays just came and went as

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Speaker 1: if there was nothing happening.

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Speaker 3: I know you had mentioned that you guys spoke very often,

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Speaker 3: so when he made the transition from New York to

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Speaker 3: Los Angeles, you would still get phone calls from him

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Speaker 3: every day.

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Speaker 4: You said there were Bible studies.

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Speaker 3: Did he talk about joining a new church or getting involved,

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Speaker 3: and what were your initial thoughts on that.

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Speaker 1: It was probably the end of twenty nineteen when he

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Speaker 1: called me and said I'm no longer Catholic, I'm a

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Speaker 1: born again Christian now. And I went, Okay, what does

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Speaker 1: that mean? Do you still go to church? Are you

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Speaker 1: still following the same teachings? And he said yes, and

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Speaker 1: he mentioned bete Ash and said that they would do

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Speaker 1: Bible studies at the house together and that eventually he

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Speaker 1: got invited to the pastor's home for dinner, which is

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Speaker 1: supposed to be something special, and he actually said that

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Speaker 1: he almost didn't get invited, which was like, Oh, how

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Speaker 1: does that work? And in retrospect, I was like, he

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Speaker 1: almost didn't get invited. That means that there were bells

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Speaker 1: going off that either he chose to ignore or that

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Speaker 1: were overcome by something that someone said to him or

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Speaker 1: did to him to make him part of the group.

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Speaker 1: There was probably a lot of peer pressure because he

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Speaker 1: was looking for a place to land and feel grounded,

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Speaker 1: and I guess the other dancers were probably feeling the

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Speaker 1: same way. And especially if you're a spiritual person, you

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Speaker 1: want to know that you've found your people and you

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Speaker 1: found your purpose. And I think they use that knowledge

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Speaker 1: of his spirituality against him and said this is the

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Speaker 1: way you need to be if you want to achieve

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Speaker 1: all the wonderful things that you want to achieve in

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Speaker 1: your life. And one of the things that I discovered

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Speaker 1: through my research is that most people who join cults

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Speaker 1: are idealists. They're looking to better the world. They're looking

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Speaker 1: to uplift people, and that's what Nick was all about.

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Speaker 2: At what point did you start to notice next behavior

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Speaker 2: and communication with you changing, and how did the situation

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Speaker 2: with the Wilkins family, particularly Miranda first raise alarm bells

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the pandemic made things worse because it

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Speaker 1: isolated him and the other dancers together and they had

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Speaker 1: no recourse and no kind of way out to see

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Speaker 1: the bigger picture of what was happening to them. So

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty was a lot of these really glitzy videos

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Speaker 1: with you know, beautiful houses, beautiful clothing, and everyone looked

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Speaker 1: so happy and so content and so fulfilled, and it

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Speaker 1: made us think, oh, he's in a good place. Even

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Speaker 1: though the communications started to dwindle, and when we did

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Speaker 1: speak to him, it was, oh, I can't really talk

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Speaker 1: right now. I'm about to get on and film something.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing a gig. You know, he was never specific

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Speaker 1: about what he was doing. He couldn't talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Oh I signed an NDA, I can't talk about who

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Speaker 1: I'm doing things with, where I am or what I'm promoting.

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Speaker 1: Because he did some little commercials along the way too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that progressed into from doing face times that went

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Speaker 1: away so we couldn't even see him. Then it was

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Speaker 1: just text, and then the time between those communications got

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Speaker 1: longer and longer and longer, from weeks to months, and

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Speaker 1: it was very painful. We were like, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: And my husband would say, I guess he's busy. I

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Speaker 1: guess you know, busy is a good thing, you know.

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Speaker 1: We always toward our voice to be hard workers, and

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Speaker 1: Nick was an extremely hard worker. And the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the next year, after many months of not hearing from him,

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Speaker 1: he called us and asked my husband for some information

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Speaker 1: into any man account that he had, kind of like

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Speaker 1: a joint account. We discussed it, you know, and I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's what twenty six now, you know, we

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Speaker 1: have to hand over the reins and let him do

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Speaker 1: what he needs to do with his money. It's his money.

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Speaker 1: So we did that, and almost immediately that account was

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Speaker 1: transferred and my husband got a notification from the bank

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Speaker 1: saying that it was close. We knew what was happening

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Speaker 1: because shortly after that was when the Wilkings called us

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Speaker 1: and said, Hey, this is happening with our daughter. What's

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Speaker 1: happening with your son? We know your son is part

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Speaker 1: of this group, and we were like, yeah, we were

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Speaker 1: experiencing the same thing, lack of communication. The money was

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Speaker 1: disappearing from their accounts. The same thing with Miranda, you know,

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars were being moved out of

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Speaker 1: her account. She had a joint account with her father,

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Speaker 1: and We're like, this is scary, absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And I remember at the time when these were happening

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Speaker 3: with the bank accounts, I was in Chicina and I

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00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 3: had already had certain alarm bells going off, and I

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Speaker 3: remember looking through Breddit and just watching all of these

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Speaker 3: bloggers and YouTubers talk about and that was something that

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Speaker 3: really stood out to me, was hearing about the joint

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Speaker 3: accounts that were drained. And these are just you know,

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Speaker 3: people on Reddit that are concerned, and I've heard stories,

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Speaker 3: and I think that is one of the things that

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Speaker 3: rang bigger alarm bells in my head. It helped fuel

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Speaker 3: the fire of motivation for me to leave. So I

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Speaker 3: really appreciate all of the parents that shared their stories

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Speaker 3: and spoke out for their children because it did touch me.

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Speaker 3: It did reach me there when I'm already having thoughts

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Speaker 3: about am I supposed to be here is what we're

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Speaker 3: doing in here wrong. It really just helped put things

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Speaker 3: into perspective for me. So I can't thank you guys

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Speaker 3: enough for the tenacity that you've had as parents. How

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Speaker 3: from the outside looking in, did you see this impact

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Speaker 3: on Nick, particularly in regards to his confidence as a dancer.

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Speaker 1: Well, I didn't see anything change for quite some time.

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Speaker 1: He was still hosting videos almost daily, probably by the

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Speaker 1: end of the year. Close to the early part of

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Speaker 1: the next year, which was twenty twenty two, I've noticed

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Speaker 1: there was less and less of him on the dance videos,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, what's going on. I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: He loves to dance. And when they started doing the

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes videos, I would catch him sitting with

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Speaker 1: Isaiah behind the camera and I'm going, what is happening.

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Speaker 1: I know he loves being behind the camera. I know

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Speaker 1: he loves doing editing and special effects and all those

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Speaker 1: kind of things. That was his thing even when he

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Speaker 1: was here in Atlanta. And I think I got information

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Speaker 1: from people that had come out of the church that

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Speaker 1: Robert was telling them that they weren't good dancers, that

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Speaker 1: he could dance better than the them, and he would

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Speaker 1: make fun of them during the services, and I eventually

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Speaker 1: found out that he specifically told Nick that he was

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Speaker 1: not a good dancer. But I think the real reason

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Speaker 1: was that Nick was not the big moneymaker and he

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Speaker 1: wanted to use him wherever he could find his strengths

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Speaker 1: other than dancing.

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Speaker 2: For those that don't know, Nick is actually an incredible dancer.

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Speaker 2: So that's a bit shocking to me. But yes, to

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Speaker 2: your point, maybe he wasn't that big money maker for Robert, right.

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Speaker 2: But I think one of the things that was also

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Speaker 2: very concerning is after the documentary came out, Nick's account

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Speaker 2: went completely away, and so we had started to see

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Speaker 2: that he wasn't appearing in a lot of videos, and

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Speaker 2: then we'd see him in the background, and then after

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Speaker 2: the documentary came out, completely gone. And so one of

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Speaker 2: the things that we've been seeing a lot on social

356
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Speaker 2: media is where's Nick. It's almost this like hashtag of

357
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Speaker 2: where's Nick because he's just we're to be found and

358
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 2: people are speculating on their dancing with people with masks

359
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 2: on and they're like, it's Nick and it's not. But

360
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Speaker 2: there was a post recently that he was in the background.

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Speaker 2: He now has maybe a beard and a mustache. And

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Speaker 2: I just appreciate that you've always just been vigilant, Migdalia,

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Speaker 2: and you're just you speak out and you've never stopped

364
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 2: fighting for your son. And yeah, I think you mentioned

365
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Speaker 2: that Nick eventually encouraged to cut ties with his family

366
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Speaker 2: and that communication with him became increasingly difficult, which obviously

367
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Speaker 2: we've been seeing. But what was it like for you

368
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Speaker 2: as a mother seeing him become more distant and isolated

369
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Speaker 2: and see that his social media was gone.

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Speaker 1: It was extremely devastating for me when we first realized

371
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Speaker 1: what was happening, it was unbelievable. I had no power

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Speaker 1: to reach my son. I had no recourse because as

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Speaker 1: an adult, law enforcement does not even recognize that he's

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Speaker 1: being manipulated, coerced, or controlled in any way. And the

375
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: fact that he was being told that he had to

376
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Speaker 1: die to himself, which means he had to bury everything

377
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Speaker 1: he knew and everyone he loved and forget it. And

378
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Speaker 1: that's what hurts me most of all, because Nick is

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Speaker 1: such a special soul, He has such a big heart,

380
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Speaker 1: and I don't want him to forget who he is,

381
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,959
Speaker 1: who he was, and all the people who loved And

382
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: that's what Robert was telling all the day, that's just

383
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: to do, to just bury themselves, bury the things they'd loved,

384
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Speaker 1: I forget about their lives together. And I could do that.

385
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: I had to keep trying to reach out and reconnect

386
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Speaker 1: with my son no matter what. And that's the only

387
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: way I was able to see him. I got on

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Speaker 1: a plane with my husband and we showed up at

389
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Speaker 1: his house, and we showed up at the church, and

390
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: we knocked and we rang the doorbells, and we insisted

391
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: that we were going to see our son, even though

392
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,959
Speaker 1: he never had time for us over the phone. I

393
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 1: was going to see him no matter what. And we

394
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: showed up at that church, and five minutes later he

395
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Speaker 1: called us as sod, where are you What are you doing?

396
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Speaker 1: And we said, we're here to see you. He said,

397
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Speaker 1: don't go to the church. You're not allowed to go

398
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Speaker 1: to the church. And we said, okay, so where do

399
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: you want to meet us? And he agreed to meet

400
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: us for lunch. And it was one of the most

401
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: awkward things you could imagine. A young man that you

402
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: raised for twenty five years and he could barely look

403
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: at us in the eye. There was no eye contact.

404
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: It was like a totally different person, and we just

405
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: kept trying to talk to him and find out what

406
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: he was doing, what his life was like, Is he

407
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: all right? And he just kept talking in circles. But

408
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: at least we saw him. We were able to touch

409
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 1: him and hold him and kiss him and tell him

410
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: we loved him. And that meant a lot to me,

411
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Speaker 1: because I don't want to ever forget that I'm here

412
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Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep fighting for him.

413
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with me, Dahlia,

414
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: this is forgive me for I have followed.

415
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's

416
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 3: the conclusion of our conversation with my Dahlia.

417
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Speaker 2: Have you been able to see Nick since the documentary

418
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: came out?

419
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 4: And what was that like?

420
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: If so, Yes, we were able to see him. We actually,

421
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: for the first time, had a planned visit. Total, we

422
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: have seen him three times in the last three years,

423
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: just once a year, and all three times have been

424
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: because we got on a flight and just showed up.

425
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: But the last time we told him we're coming, he

426
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: wanted us to come in July and we couldn't come

427
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: in July, and we pushed it to August, and he

428
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: agreed that he was going to meet with us. So

429
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: it was the first time he was really open to it,

430
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: and I was grateful because, you know, after the documentary

431
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: came out, he called us and lectured us on all

432
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: the downfall from the documentary, that people were following him,

433
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: trying to find out where he lived, sending him hate

434
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: on social media. He said that he almost had an

435
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: accident because someone was following him in a car and

436
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: he was trying to dodge them and go down on

437
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: familiar streets to avoid them catching up with him. I

438
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: don't know if any of that it's true, but he agreed,

439
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: and once we had that conversation and everyone calmed down,

440
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: we always seemed to come to a place where we're like, okay,

441
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: we're going to agree to disagree on some of this.

442
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: I let him vent and we apologize for whatever mishap

443
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: might have taken place after the documentary and him having

444
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: to delete all his social media because of it. That's

445
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: one of the reasons he said he had to do it.

446
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: But I don't believe I think it was Robert who

447
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: made him do it. I think Robert said, look, you

448
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: need to prove to me that You're loyal despite everything

449
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: that's come out, and this was an act of loyalty

450
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: for him to completely die to himself, to lose all

451
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: those years of hard work and videos and delete everything.

452
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: And that really stood out to me, having gone through

453
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: the experience of not only social media accounts, but having

454
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: to bury parts of myself. And there are some things

455
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 3: when I was in Chakina that I had gotten rid

456
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: of that were just so sentimental and irreplaceable.

457
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: And to this.

458
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 3: Day it bothers me so much that those things that

459
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 3: I have had or gone forever because I thought, like

460
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: you said, I thought I was part of something bigger.

461
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: I felt like it was a bigger purpose. I really

462
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: wanted just to help people and bring people to the

463
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 3: Kingdom of God.

464
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 4: So to come to the.

465
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 3: Place today where I realized that wasn't it. It feels

466
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 3: like you know, and I do know at the end

467
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 3: of the day, is it's just material things. But they

468
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: were sentimental and they are like the time passes and

469
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: those there's some things that I just won't be able

470
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: to get back from those experiences and or from that time,

471
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 3: and that has been one of the hardest things for

472
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: me to have to reconcile with with myself.

473
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: And.

474
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: You know, I appreciate you for your vulnerability because it

475
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 3: kind of it allows space for me as well to

476
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: grieve those things. And you know, so for you looking back,

477
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: what advice would you give to other families who might

478
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: be going through a similar situation with a loved one

479
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: in a high control group.

480
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: You really need to do your research, need to talk

481
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: to experts. I was lucky enough to have a couple

482
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: of sessions with doctor Quincy Gideon, and she's a cult expert,

483
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: and I follow a lot of the cult experts online,

484
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: doctor Stephen Hassen, Rick Ross, There's a whole bunch of

485
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: cult experts on Instagram. They outline a lot of the

486
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: red flags that you need to watch out for when

487
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: you're joining a group, and talk about how important it

488
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: is to keep communication and make sure that your loved

489
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: one knows that they're loved and that you're there for

490
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: them and supporting them no matter what their choices are.

491
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: I know that Nick's spiritual journey is very important to him,

492
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: and one of the last things I said to him

493
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: on our last phone conversation was that I respect his

494
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: decision to follow God. I respect his decision to be honest,

495
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: a ritual journey for the rest of his life if

496
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: he needs to be, to go into the priesthood, if

497
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: that's what he wants to do. But I made it

498
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: very distinct that where he is now and the people

499
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: that he is with now are not the people he

500
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: should continue that journey with. And I want him to

501
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: be able to separate that because one of the things

502
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: I said to him over and over again, you can

503
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: do what you're doing anywhere on this planet. If you

504
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: want to give yourself to God and serve and do

505
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: good work, you can do that anywhere in the world.

506
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: You don't have to do it where you are. But

507
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: I think it's very important for people to recognize the

508
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: red flags and to understand to be kind and loving

509
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: and never lose hope. Continue the communication, continue sending pictures

510
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: and notes and texts and love letters and thinking of

511
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: thank you, and be prepared because when they come out

512
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: on the other side, they're going to need a lot

513
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: of support and a lot of love from the family,

514
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: and we're going to be here for them.

515
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: We'd like to thank Mgdahalia for coming on the show

516
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 3: and sharing her story, her and wavering determination to reconnect

517
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 3: with her son and expose the harmful practices of Chiquina

518
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 3: Church highlights the immense challenges faced by the families caught

519
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: in the grip of high control groups. We'd also like

520
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: to thank JB. For his heartfelt letter regarding Amanda. It

521
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: was a powerful reflection of the deep devotion these parents

522
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: have in their efforts to reunite with their children.

523
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: We truly wish them all the very best. We hope

524
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: this conversation gave you insight on how these high controlled

525
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: groups affect their loved ones. Be sure to follow us

526
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: for more thought provoking discussions, and, as always, thank you

527
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: for tuning in to Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

528
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: Give Me For I Have Followed is a production from

529
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 3: wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast network, hosted.

530
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 4: By me Kalia Gray and me Jess Costivetto.

531
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron

532
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.

533
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Kaleia Gray, myself, Wilmar Balderama, Leo

534
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: Klem and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.

535
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

536
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport.

537
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 4: And Halo Boy.

538
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

539
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

540
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 4: See you next week, See you next week,