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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You. From housetop Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking to two super

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Speaker 1: rad ladies, Gina Helfric and Ashley Doyle, who we met

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Speaker 1: face to face at south By Southwest Interactive and it

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Speaker 1: was kids mitt Oh my god, it was amazing. So

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Speaker 1: here's the backstory. Really briefly, Gina emailed us, and uh,

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Speaker 1: thank god she did. I'm so excited to talk to them,

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Speaker 1: and I was so excited to talk to them at

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Speaker 1: south By Southwest. But the thing is, when Kristen and

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Speaker 1: I were at south By, like, there's so much going on,

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Speaker 1: You're running to a million places. We hosted our own

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Speaker 1: live show and panel. There was just a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff going on, and Gina was kind enough, conscientious enough

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Speaker 1: and efficient and type a enough to e mailed me

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Speaker 1: again to make sure that we got together and I'm

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Speaker 1: so happy she did. Yeah. And since we haven't even

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Speaker 1: mentioned what this, Gina Ashley Dynamic duo do um. They

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Speaker 1: have started a woman owned full service recruiting firm called

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Speaker 1: recruit Her, which is committed to connecting tech companies with

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Speaker 1: diverse talent, and in our conversation we're going to get

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Speaker 1: into all of the reasons why this service is very

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Speaker 1: necessary and important not only for company's bottom lines, but

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Speaker 1: also for the technology and services that trickled down to

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Speaker 1: end users like you and me. Yeah, And in talking

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Speaker 1: with them for this interview and when we met them

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Speaker 1: a little while back in person, it was so fascinating

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Speaker 1: and inspiring to hear they're sort of boots on the

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Speaker 1: ground perspective about diversity and tech, both diversity of gender

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Speaker 1: and diversity of ethnicity. They're really passionate about improving the

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Speaker 1: diversity of teams in tech because honestly, diverse teams outperform

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Speaker 1: those who just look like one group. And beyond the

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Speaker 1: inspiration of their mission, it's also just inspiring to hear

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Speaker 1: their own story of how they found each other and

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Speaker 1: what brought them to building this startup which has taken

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Speaker 1: off in a really short amount of time. And so

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Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about with Gina and Ashley

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Speaker 1: today includes, yes, why diversity is important and go beyond

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Speaker 1: the buzzwordy, almost tokenism aspects of diversity, right, but also too,

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Speaker 1: we're going to drill down into some really personal issues

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Speaker 1: when it comes to women and our jobs and our

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Speaker 1: paychecks and transitioning in to better jobs where we're treated better.

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Speaker 1: And also this issue of salary transparency, which is blowing

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Speaker 1: up right now among tech companies. Yeah, I mean, speaking

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Speaker 1: of buzzwordy pay transparency is a huge issue right now.

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Speaker 1: People in all sorts of industries are talking about it,

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Speaker 1: and for the most part, largely it is touted as

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Speaker 1: a positive step towards eliminating the gender wage gap, toward

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Speaker 1: making sure that people no matter their gender, race, background, whatever,

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Speaker 1: are paid equitably for the jobs that they're doing. And

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Speaker 1: it's also free advertising in a way. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not entirely free, because you have to pay probably some

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Speaker 1: people more in their day to day jobs, but it's

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Speaker 1: free advertising for recruiting and then also retaining solid talent um.

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Speaker 1: And you're now seeing more and more companies like Amazon

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Speaker 1: and Salesforce and most recently Facebook analyzing gender wage gaps

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Speaker 1: within the company and rectifying that. And so it's exciting

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Speaker 1: to know that this is something that um, these leading

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Speaker 1: tchech companies are taking really seriously. And this is a

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Speaker 1: conversation that is spreading because Caroline, I think it's really

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Speaker 1: time for us to stop feeling so secretive about our salaries. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And and that is something that both Ashley and Gina

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Speaker 1: are passionate about, and it's something that the conversation is

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Speaker 1: only going to get louder as companies of all stripes

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Speaker 1: diversify more and more, as more people of different backgrounds

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Speaker 1: are brought into companies, salary discrepancies are going to be

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Speaker 1: an issue, and pay transparency is a huge way to

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Speaker 1: combat that. And it's also an important step in normalizing

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Speaker 1: this thing that we've been conditioned to consider impolite of

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Speaker 1: talking about what you make, finding out how much your

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Speaker 1: co workers make, and comparing notes a little bit, because

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Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is when it comes to

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Speaker 1: especially women, and even more so women of color, our

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Speaker 1: we will never know how much we aren't being paid

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Speaker 1: if we don't know how much people around us are making.

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Speaker 1: So should we talk now to Gina and Ashley? Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. So, Gina and Ashley, before we get

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Speaker 1: into the nitty gritty about salary and money talk and

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Speaker 1: all that fun and sometimes not so fun stuff, can

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Speaker 1: you tell our audience a little bit about what both

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Speaker 1: of you do, and also how recruit Her came to

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Speaker 1: be and how it works. Yeah, this is Gina. I

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Speaker 1: co founded recruit Her with Ashley last August so UM

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Speaker 1: late summer. I had, prior to that UM worked in

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Speaker 1: a startup in the tech industry here in Austin, and

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Speaker 1: before that, I was directing the Women's Center at Harvard

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Speaker 1: so UM. I was looking for something new to do professionally,

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Speaker 1: as kind of in a career transition, and I felt like,

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Speaker 1: you know, what I really want to do is to

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Speaker 1: combine these passions of fine and to draw on my

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Speaker 1: background in gender and women's studies and diversity and inclusion

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Speaker 1: work UM from within Higher Ed and bring that expertise

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Speaker 1: to the tech industry, which is having a lot of

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Speaker 1: challenges and great opportunities around UM diversity and inclusion issues.

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Speaker 1: So I was looking at that mostly from a consulting perspective,

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Speaker 1: and I had lots and lots of people asked me

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Speaker 1: if I was also going to provide candidates for companies

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Speaker 1: that I would consult for, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything about that, so I should probably

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Speaker 1: find someone who does. And that was how I meant. Actually, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was really a great timing. I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: really lucky that I saw Gina's post when I did, so, Um.

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Speaker 1: We're both based here in Austin. This is actually Doyle

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Speaker 1: by the way, so I'm obviously the other co founder

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Speaker 1: of recruiter Um. We're both based here in Austin. We

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Speaker 1: didn't know each other, but there's this really wonderful Facebook

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Speaker 1: group called Austin Digital Jobs. It has, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: close to twenty people in it now, and Gina was

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Speaker 1: one of those twenty thousand people who posted, Hey, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to talk to a recruiter about UM, like how

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Speaker 1: you consider getting more diverse applicants into the pool if

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Speaker 1: you have thirty minutes or something to talk with me?

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Speaker 1: And I was the only person who answer. So UM,

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Speaker 1: that's how we met and really uh hit it off

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Speaker 1: on that first call, although maybe we can talk later

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Speaker 1: about how awkward it was around the topic of salary negotiations. Yes, um,

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Speaker 1: fighting for your worth UM. In any case, my background

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Speaker 1: before launching recruit Her was primarily in technical recruitment UM

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Speaker 1: in larger corporations. So I've been working in tech for

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Speaker 1: about eight years doing technical recruiting and sourcing and have

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Speaker 1: also been an a drama manager for those same companies

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Speaker 1: and so, UM, really the bulk of my work has

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Speaker 1: always been focused around recruiting, retention, compensation, and benefits. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I we launched recruit Her in August of last

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Speaker 1: year and uh here we are now built this thing.

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Speaker 1: It's very exciting. Yeah. So what we can tell you

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Speaker 1: about what Recruiter does is where a diversity recruitment firm

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Speaker 1: or focused on the tech industry. What that means is

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Speaker 1: we provide a more diverse set of candidates to our

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Speaker 1: client companies for their open roles that they're typically going

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Speaker 1: to get if they work with a traditional recruiting agency. UM.

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Speaker 1: We also are committed to only working for client companies

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Speaker 1: who we believe are providing an inclusive environment for our candidates.

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Speaker 1: So we pre screen all of the companies that we

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Speaker 1: ultimately decide to recruit for to see what life is like.

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Speaker 1: Do they have a salary transparency at their company? UM,

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Speaker 1: and make sure it's a place that we feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: sending someone where they can grow and thrive UM and

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Speaker 1: make sure that they don't just have an experience where

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Speaker 1: they get spit right back out. So we're really hyper

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Speaker 1: conscious about the ecosystem of issues that are contributing to

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Speaker 1: the current lack of diversity in tech and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we conduct our business in a way

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Speaker 1: that is long term going to continue to help fix

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Speaker 1: the problem. Well, I mean, that's an amazing effort and

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Speaker 1: an amazing goal. But what do you say to those

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Speaker 1: people out there who just claim that efforts like this

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Speaker 1: around diversity are just tokenism and we don't really need

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Speaker 1: to do this. We're just hiring the best people for

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Speaker 1: the job, whoever that is. Uh. Man, you know, we

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Speaker 1: would be super duper rich at this point if we

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Speaker 1: got a dollar every time someone said that legitimate to

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Speaker 1: us on the phone. So I hear it, right, Like

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Speaker 1: I get the eyebrow raise. Uh And the skepticism, especially

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Speaker 1: this year, which it's like pro con right, finally, finally,

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Speaker 1: uh wage inequity diversity in tech, or the lack thereof

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Speaker 1: is a part of the national conversation, and that's something

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Speaker 1: that we are super excited about because it's not a

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Speaker 1: new problem, certainly. Um, it's just finally one that like

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Speaker 1: you know, you can talk to someone at Starbucks about

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Speaker 1: because people now know this is a thing that happens

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Speaker 1: and that lots of people are working to try to

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Speaker 1: figure out how to address UM. The con to that is, like,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you get the eye roll right, Like great diversity

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Speaker 1: taught me something I don't know, Like I just hire

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Speaker 1: the best person for the job. I don't care what

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Speaker 1: you look like. I just want to see your resume. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: that sort of sentiment doesn't work in the actual real world. UM.

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Speaker 1: And we know because of you know, years and years

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Speaker 1: and years of research and practical experience, that we're not

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Speaker 1: able to look at a resume or sit in an

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Speaker 1: interview room with a candidate and make completely unbiased judgments

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Speaker 1: about that person. That's just not the way our brains work.

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Speaker 1: So UM real believe there are tons and tons of

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Speaker 1: strategies that you can employ as an employer, as a

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Speaker 1: person who's interviewing another person for your company. UM, even

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Speaker 1: if you are just the first person reviewing resumes for UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, new applicants rolling in, there are lots of

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Speaker 1: ways that you can sort of mitigate that bias that

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Speaker 1: naturally exists for all of us as humans and make

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Speaker 1: sure that you're hiring processes are set up to really

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Speaker 1: truly hire the best person for the job. And frankly,

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Speaker 1: if you only rely on the same, like hiring practices

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Speaker 1: you've always used forever, and you have a homogeneous team already,

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Speaker 1: you cannot expect that the applicant pool you're driving in

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Speaker 1: without trying is going to change. Like if your existing

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Speaker 1: team as homogeneous and you rely on employee referrals to

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Speaker 1: get new candidates coming in and you don't ever like

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Speaker 1: actively engage with communities outside of the ones you're part of,

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Speaker 1: you're pretty much always going to be hiring the same

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Speaker 1: people and thinking that those are the best people for

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Speaker 1: the job because you haven't looked beyond your You know,

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Speaker 1: you're the limited bubble, which is sometimes a really nice bubble,

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of talent outside of that, outside

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Speaker 1: of that realm. So one thing I've also been noticing

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Speaker 1: in terms of diversity issues within tech is a we've

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Speaker 1: started talking beyond just gender gaps but also looking at

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Speaker 1: um ethnicity to which I think is a really great

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Speaker 1: step forward. But on the flip side of that too,

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Speaker 1: I think that we are or I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm just in like my own Twitter bubble, but we're

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Speaker 1: seeing not only identification of the problem, but also why

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Speaker 1: diversity is a solution. In text, I was wondering if

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Speaker 1: you could just kind of quickly talk about why this

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Speaker 1: is a benefit for the bottom line. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: there are lots and lots of research out there making

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Speaker 1: effectively the business case for diversity. Um. But there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of examples that we talked about a lot. So. UM.

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Speaker 1: If you'll remember when Apple rolled out one of their

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Speaker 1: more recent iOS updates that included the Apple Health app. Um,

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Speaker 1: that app was native on your phone. If you had

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Speaker 1: an Apple phone, you had the app, and you could

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Speaker 1: use this to track your sleep, um, how much you

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Speaker 1: weigh your sodium intake, any medicines that you might have.

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Speaker 1: You could track pretty much any little detail that you

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Speaker 1: could dream up having to do with your body and biology.

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Speaker 1: But you couldn't track your period, which is something that

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Speaker 1: women you would know like, oh great a health app,

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Speaker 1: like I would love to use this. What's the most

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Speaker 1: fundamental thing I might want to track here? Right? And

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Speaker 1: it was not even a capabilities So having a diverse

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Speaker 1: team developing your products in tech is really important simply

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Speaker 1: for connecting with your customer base. Right. That's fifty of

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Speaker 1: their customer base that they just completely let down through

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Speaker 1: that feature. Um. So since then they have made the

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Speaker 1: update you can now track your period and Apple Health um.

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Speaker 1: And there's lots of other apps that also came out

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Speaker 1: to help women you know, keep track of their fertility

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Speaker 1: as well. So it's a huge market. UM. I think

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Speaker 1: the notion that there are heterogeneous customers and markets out

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Speaker 1: there that you can't tap unless you have a team

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Speaker 1: that reflects those experiences and perspectives is really strong, right

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Speaker 1: relates to the bottom line. Um. There's a new company

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Speaker 1: out there right now called Bevil that is just crushing it. Um.

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Speaker 1: They have basically like shaving products for curly haired men

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Speaker 1: that don't tear up their face when they're actually shaving

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Speaker 1: because it's designed for that particular hair type, and they're

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Speaker 1: in target now. They're making so much money, and it's

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Speaker 1: just because nobody actually decided to pay attention to the

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Speaker 1: particular needs of this market before. So really, you know, diversity,

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Speaker 1: having a diverse team, I think plenty of us out

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Speaker 1: there just think it's the right thing to do. Right.

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Speaker 1: Really uncomfortable with a very homogeneous looking tech industry, given

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Speaker 1: how tech is increasingly, you know, creeping into every aspect

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Speaker 1: of our lives, and soon every industry will be the

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Speaker 1: tech industry. Um. Also it's relevant for where people want

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Speaker 1: to work. Diverse teams tend to have longer retention of employees,

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Speaker 1: people are happier working on diverse team is really and

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Speaker 1: then the bottom line, right, like, when you have teams

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Speaker 1: that reflect your customer base, you're better able to connect

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Speaker 1: with their needs. You're better able to build products that

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Speaker 1: can really serve many many people's once in needs. So

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Speaker 1: so once we have that diversity piece in place, then

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Speaker 1: there's the question of, you know, salary equity. Because there

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Speaker 1: was recently research that came out and I don't remember

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Speaker 1: the exact source, but it found that in traditionally male

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Speaker 1: dominated fields, like say a tech company, when women come

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Speaker 1: into those jobs and uh it transitions from being male

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Speaker 1: dominated to more female dominated, the overall income drops, the

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Speaker 1: overall you know, compensation drops. So yeah, this was a

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Speaker 1: New York Times article. Yeah, so let's talk about that,

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Speaker 1: and how how do you you know, kind of like

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Speaker 1: that bridge like get people in the door, but also

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Speaker 1: maintain pay equity. We will say, obviously, for us, we

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Speaker 1: think salite transparency is a critical way to make sure

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Speaker 1: that doesn't happen, right, because that way, no matter what

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Speaker 1: the circumstances are around the demographic makeup of your team,

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Speaker 1: how large your team is, how your team changes over time.

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Speaker 1: If you have committed to having more transparency around the

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Speaker 1: way you compensate your employees and how that compensation changes

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Speaker 1: over time, you can make sure that that doesn't happen. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's this resistance for sure, I think from employers to

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Speaker 1: dig into this stuff. Well, we know, for example that

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Speaker 1: Google and Apple used to have this kind of secret

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Speaker 1: you know, non compete or they wouldn't poach one another's employees,

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Speaker 1: and partly that was to keep costs down right, So,

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Speaker 1: in a sense, there can be an antagonistic relationship between

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Speaker 1: companies and their employees because companies know the premium, particularly

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Speaker 1: on tech talent, which is our field, and so if

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Speaker 1: those employees learn their actual worth, companies are gonna have

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Speaker 1: to pay more. Well, I guess how does that apply?

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Speaker 1: Do you think in a more general sense beyond just

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Speaker 1: Google not wanting to have an adversarial relationship, how do

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Speaker 1: you think that applies more to the gender aspect, especially

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Speaker 1: when it comes to whether it's like official policy in

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Speaker 1: the company or just unofficial etiquette about not speaking about

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Speaker 1: your salary. Sure, I think some of this plays into

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Speaker 1: the idea that, uh, you know, when are supposed to

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Speaker 1: be polite, right, we're taught early on that you don't

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Speaker 1: you don't want to enter into conversations that are going

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Speaker 1: to make other people uncomfortable. You know, there's the whole like,

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Speaker 1: don't talk about religion or politics at the dinner table.

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Speaker 1: Salary is part of that, right, it's sort of ingrained

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Speaker 1: in us that this is not something that you should

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Speaker 1: be talking about with your peers or with your co workers.

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Speaker 1: And frankly, you see lots of examples of companies going

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Speaker 1: so far as to say you cannot talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Um whether or not that's legal, it's a whole different

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Speaker 1: ball game. Frankly, in most cases that's not something they

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Speaker 1: can enforce, and it's certainly not something that they're supposed

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Speaker 1: to tell you. But if you pull a thousand people

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Speaker 1: about what their onboarding experience was like in a new job,

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Speaker 1: a good portion of those will tell you that hr

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Speaker 1: you know, reinforce with them at some point not to

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Speaker 1: share details about their offer or not to talk about

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Speaker 1: salary with their peers. Definitely, that is the overwhelming sentiment,

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Speaker 1: right when you talk to people about conversation. It's not

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Speaker 1: something that like we're sharing over the over a coffee together,

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Speaker 1: or that we're like hanging out at the park with

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Speaker 1: our kids and talking about how much we made last week.

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Speaker 1: It's just not a conversation that's comfortable for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, and unfortunately for underrepresented groups UM women included,

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Speaker 1: we really suffer more because we don't have access to

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Speaker 1: that data and because we are not comfortable talking about

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Speaker 1: it as a as a whole. Um. Part of why

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Speaker 1: I do this workout recruiter, and frankly, part of why

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Speaker 1: my initial meeting with Gina was really awkward is that

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Speaker 1: this happened to me. And you know, I'm someone who

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Speaker 1: who comes from an HR and recruiting background. You would

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Speaker 1: think of all women, uh, you know, doing this kind

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Speaker 1: of work, that I would have better access to the information,

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Speaker 1: that I would know a lot about my market worth,

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Speaker 1: and that I would never find myself in a situation

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Speaker 1: where I was vastly underpaid. But that's totally what happened

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Speaker 1: to me, and it was such a such a strange experience,

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Speaker 1: and it made me so angry that it really pushed

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Speaker 1: me to start talking about this more with my peers,

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Speaker 1: with women I knew with my family um and I

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Speaker 1: found that over time, no matter how many times I

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Speaker 1: have this kind of station with other women, that the

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Speaker 1: overwhelming responses the same people are just really resistant to

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Speaker 1: talk about salary. They feel like they're going to be

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Speaker 1: punished if they do, they feel like it's rude, the

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Speaker 1: conversations uncomfortable, and so we sort of avoid it. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of why often we

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Speaker 1: go for five or ten or twenty years vastly underpaid,

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Speaker 1: because there's not a single centralized location to just see

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Speaker 1: the comp of your peers right in most cases, unless

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Speaker 1: you're working for the government or a really awesome company

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Speaker 1: that has salary transparency, and more and more of those

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Speaker 1: are doing that. Um Buffer is a great example. You

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Speaker 1: can go to the Buffer website right now and look

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Speaker 1: at their salary calculator and plug in what kind of

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Speaker 1: job you want to do and where you live, and

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Speaker 1: they can give you an estimate on what you would

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Speaker 1: make their All of their employees salaries are publicly available.

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Speaker 1: Um At Recruiter remade that commitment that when we started

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Speaker 1: to hire employees that we would be transparent about our

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Speaker 1: salary and about their salaries. And that's part of the deal.

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Speaker 1: If you join us, you have to be comfortable with

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Speaker 1: other people knowing how much you make. UM, so part

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Speaker 1: of you know, diversity and tech being uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a national conversation is great because within this movement you've

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Speaker 1: also seen this really great leadership by moment of color

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Speaker 1: and tech who've pushed toward greater salary transparency. Probably the

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Speaker 1: most common or the most well known example is from

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago when Erica Baker, who was

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Speaker 1: at Google uh you know, started pushing on this, realized

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of information about the salaries of

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Speaker 1: her peers, and started a spreadsheet that was being passed around.

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Speaker 1: People were anonymously entering their compensation. Google got wind of this.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they were very pissed, UM, and ultimately she left

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Speaker 1: people is now at slack right UM and UH, which

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Speaker 1: is a company we really love and I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's doing a lot of great work around UM some

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Speaker 1: of these issues. But in any case, uh, it was

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Speaker 1: a very public punishment, right, Like, you got to kind

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Speaker 1: of watch that play out. But thankfully she was brave

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Speaker 1: enough to start that conversation and start sharing that document

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Speaker 1: because it really helped reinforce uh, this conversation around salary

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Speaker 1: gaps why certain people were paid more or less than

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Speaker 1: their peers. It pushed other people to start similar salary trains. Um,

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Speaker 1: my little lady. One that's been passed around for a

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Speaker 1: couple of months is specifically around HR and recruiting data.

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Speaker 1: I've been trying so hard to get more anonymous information

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Speaker 1: on the way recruiters and HR managers are paid and

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Speaker 1: people opts professionals, because again, you would think that someone

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Speaker 1: embedded in this work, like you know, creating compensation and plans,

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Speaker 1: having access to salary information about all the employees and

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Speaker 1: a company, would know more about their own But even

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Speaker 1: you know, within our very insular part of tech, um,

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Speaker 1: there's still that, uh, that idea that you shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: talking about this stuff, right like that somehow this is

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Speaker 1: bad that you're asking, or you should just be happy

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Speaker 1: you have a job, or just trust us that we're

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Speaker 1: going to treat you fairly. We've seen frankly that that

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Speaker 1: does not work. It's not a great method to protect yourself.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's really sort of a sad irony

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Speaker 1: that women in particular end up sharing information about their

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Speaker 1: salary with the people that it's least helpful to share

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Speaker 1: it with, which is going to be a recruiter or

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Speaker 1: a hiring manager prior to receiving a job offer. So

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Speaker 1: that actually, because of the gender wage gap, ends up

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Speaker 1: harming women because it sets in the mind of the

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Speaker 1: potential employer a ballpark for what they're going to pay you.

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Speaker 1: But if you've been historically underpaid, then you're not going

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Speaker 1: to be receiving a salary that you're actually worth because

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Speaker 1: you've revealed what that past pay history was before saying well,

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Speaker 1: what do you think that I'm worth doing this job?

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Speaker 1: So it's so frustrating and sad to me because we really,

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Speaker 1: you know, deserve it and owe to one another to

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Speaker 1: share what our salaries are and to advocate with one

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Speaker 1: another around these issues. But instead we seem to only

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Speaker 1: be saying it to the people who actually don't have

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Speaker 1: our best interest in mind. I was just gonna say

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Speaker 1: to you know, often HR managers, corporate recruiters, most big

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Speaker 1: companies will already have policies in place around how much

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Speaker 1: you know, based on percentage of a person's current salary

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Speaker 1: they can boost for this new offer. Right, So again,

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Speaker 1: if you share this information about your current comp with

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Speaker 1: a company that you'd really like to work for, and

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Speaker 1: you've been historically underpaid, whether you know it or you

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Speaker 1: don't know it, you're already setting yourself up to stay

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Speaker 1: underpaid if their rule is that they only do you

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Speaker 1: know a ten and reached from your current camp for

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Speaker 1: this offer. And I see all the time corporate HR

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Speaker 1: corporate recruiting professionals, you know, coming back to candidates with

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Speaker 1: this answer like, Hey, you know, we're not trying to

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Speaker 1: treat you unfairly, but these are the rules. I would

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Speaker 1: just strongly reject that. It's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we teach candidates and coach candidates on often, like how

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Speaker 1: to have these conversations without being seen as difficult or

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Speaker 1: you know, like you're hiding information. But really, this is

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Speaker 1: a place where you have so much power in the process.

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Speaker 1: Um giving up those numbers just really sets you back again.

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Speaker 1: Even if you don't know if you're underpaid or how

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Speaker 1: undervalued you might be. If you have an inkling, you

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Speaker 1: just pass that power right across the table as soon

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Speaker 1: as you tell them what you're making right now. They

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Speaker 1: do not need that information in order to make you

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Speaker 1: a competitive offer. So you're suggesting that the power that

432
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: you're referring to is your current compensation and that you

433
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: should not disclose that to a potential employee. Employers, Yes,

434
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: I would say absolutely not. If you can, in any

435
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: capacity avoid giving that information over, you will be in

436
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: a much better position to negotiate, and frankly, it's probably

437
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: the easiest way to keep yourself from continuing to be

438
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: underpaid if you are already you know, part of that

439
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: wage gap. I mean, if you look at Ashley's experience,

440
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: within one job move, she more than doubled her salary.

441
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: So if she had revealed how much that she was

442
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: making prior, it would be a much harder pill for

443
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: that new employer to swallow that they were going to

444
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: more than double her prior salary, right man, But I

445
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: mean speaking of hard pills to swallow, you know we

446
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: you've already mentioned how it's almost culturally ingrained in women

447
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: to be polite, be that model employee, not rock the boat,

448
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: not make waves. I mean, in my palm started sweating

449
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: when you were like, don't give up that information, because

450
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: I know what it feels like to be sitting in

451
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: front of that online job application and seeing that cursor

452
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: blinking in the little field where you're supposed to enter

453
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: your current salary? And so what advice do you you know,

454
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: I don't want to steal your your trade secrets that

455
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: you guys do recruiter, but but what is some maybe

456
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: advice or perspective that you can offer our listeners when

457
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: it comes to circumventing not only that, but other potentially

458
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: damaging aspects of the job interview or job application process.

459
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: I think it all comes down to how you frame

460
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: the conversation right, like how you go into these often

461
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable for us conversations around camp. UM we can

462
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: talk about like literally, how do you move the cursor

463
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: past the what's your current camp blank? If it forces

464
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: you to enter a number. But first, I would say

465
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: the best thing that you can do for yourself if

466
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: you are starting to interview, is to make sure that

467
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: you are prepared before you ever get on the phone

468
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: with a recruiter UM with information about what market rates

469
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: look like for the position you're interviewing for UM. Do

470
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: as much research as you can around current camp for

471
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: your peers, for what folks make another industries if you're

472
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: transitioning from one to another. UM We're really lucky that

473
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: the Internet exists UM. Fifty years ago this would be

474
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: very difficult to do UM. But again, thanks to people

475
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: like Erica Baker UM and many who have come after

476
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: her sort of doing the same push, there are lots

477
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: of resources floating around where we're all sharing this information

478
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: right and trying to get more visibility not just for

479
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: ourselves but for our industries as a whole around like

480
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: what market rate really looks like. There's also quite a

481
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: few services that have popped up in the last couple

482
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: of years. Comparatively is UM. I think the newest one

483
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: they just got something like six million dollars and BC

484
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: funding UM and they're essentially building out this huge database

485
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: not onlike a glass door UM to look specifically at compensation,

486
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: what if the full package might look like for someone

487
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: if they're going into interview, they're asking for anonymous feedback

488
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: on this stuff so that their sample sizes will grow.

489
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: UM pay scale is another one. Again, you can look

490
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: at companies who have already publicly shared salary information to

491
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: get a feel for what people are making near you

492
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: also having conversations with recruiters about compensation in general. A

493
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: lot of times even if you're not super interested in

494
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: the particular role, you should take those intro calls when

495
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: they want to talk to you about them and just

496
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: get competitive intelligence on you know, what companies are looking for,

497
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: what the salary ranges for a particular role. Being armed

498
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: with that stuff before you go into the conversation with

499
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: a recruiter about a position you really want, I'm going

500
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: to help you so much to be able to give,

501
00:30:54,840 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, data based, totally logical, like numbers oriented reasons

502
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: why you want to be paid a specific amount of

503
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: money or within a specific range for this work that

504
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: you're going to be providing to them. Um, it's so

505
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 1: much easier to go and armed with that. There is

506
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: great information available about what works, particularly for women, in

507
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: terms of how to approach a negotiation, especially as salary negotiation,

508
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: in a way that's going to help avoid or minimize

509
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: backlash for negotiating in the first place. Right, as a society,

510
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: we are just much more comfortable with men advocating on

511
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: their own half than we are with women doing the same.

512
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: Women are excellent negotiators. They can do a wonderful job

513
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: as long as they're advocating for someone else most of

514
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: the time, Right, and partly this is because you know,

515
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: seriotypically we view women as collaborative and caretaking, and so

516
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: it makes sense for us when we think about a

517
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: woman trying to advocate for someone else, negotiating someone else's behalf,

518
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: but when it's negotiating on her own behalf, then that's

519
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: kind of off putting to us. So, um, there's a

520
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: researcher out of Harvard, her name is Hannah Riley Bowls,

521
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: who's done a lot of great work on this. She

522
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: talks about taking a relational approach to the conversation. So,

523
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: just like Ashley was saying, come in very prepared. Know

524
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: your numbers. Make sure you know you know what the

525
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: salary range is for the job in the specific area.

526
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: If you're trying to negotiate a salary in San Francisco,

527
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: those numbers are gonna look really different than they would

528
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: if you're trying to get a job in Austin for

529
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: the same type of role. Um and talk in terms

530
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: of we right already position yourselves as though you're on

531
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: the same side of the table with a person that

532
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: you're negotiating with, so you can essentially say you know,

533
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: I you know, can't wait to come on and provide

534
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: this particular set of skills and capabilities for your team.

535
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna do really well together. I you know,

536
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: I expect to basically put myself, you know, hard to

537
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: work for your company, and at this rate, which I

538
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: understand to be, you know, the going rate, I'm going

539
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: to be really happy coming on and we're going to

540
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: get started on the right foot, et cetera. I wish

541
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: you had been in the room with me, both of

542
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: you and I had my first job offer because I

543
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: didn't negotiate, and I know I'm still paying for it,

544
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: and uh, it's hard not to kick myself anytime I

545
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: think about it. I'm right there with you. I spent

546
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: so many years killing it. Frankly, like I'm not shy,

547
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: I'm really good at my job, but I was killing it.

548
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: And I was the lowest paid person doing that particular

549
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: type of work and for a company that I loved,

550
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: which is a wonderful, wonderful company with lots of great

551
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: people in it um and I just I didn't know.

552
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't armed with that information, so I had no idea.

553
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: And then once I found out, you know, it's just

554
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: like it guts you it's really difficult to continue to

555
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: kill it knowing that you're being compensated at a rate

556
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: you know less than half of your peers, who may

557
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: or may not be killing it themselves. So actually has

558
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: told me this story a number of times, and I

559
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: think it's great to highlight that one of her male

560
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: coworkers came to her to share with her the fact

561
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: that she was grossly underpaid. So this is such a

562
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 1: great area for ally ship, right, Like when we talk

563
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: about the importance of sharing with one another, it's not

564
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: just women sharing with other women, but frankly, our male

565
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: coworkers and friends can talk to us about what they

566
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: are making and that makes a huge difference. Well do

567
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: you think that so called radical transparency of wages, of benefits,

568
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: of skills, the skills that you bring to the table,

569
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: will that help disrupt any toxic office culture? Will it

570
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: help in the gender wage gap as so many people

571
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: are hoping. I think it certainly has the potential to.

572
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: I mean, look at Sales Force, right, Um, they're an

573
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: excellent example all Someone at some point the last couple

574
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: of years came to them and said, hey, we think

575
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: you have some issues with salary on your team. And

576
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: you know their topic Sex said, no, absolutely not. We

577
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: we're a wonderful company. We care to believe for our employees.

578
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: We're doing all this great work for them. We have

579
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: all these great people who stay like there's no way.

580
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: And then they looked at the numbers anyway, and were

581
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: horrified that, yes, in fact, there was huge disparity when

582
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: they looked across their salary ranges and their existing employees

583
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: camp and then they, you know, put three and a

584
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: half million dollars into fixing it. And then they publicly

585
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: talked about how, you know, how frustrating that process was

586
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: to believe so strongly that you were doing the right thing,

587
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: and then of course you were taking care of your folks,

588
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: and then when you dig into the numbers to find that,

589
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, in many cases they weren't. Um Now they're

590
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: a great example because a they looked at the numbers,

591
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 1: be they did something about it. And see, I think

592
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: most importantly they talked about it, right, because that's that's

593
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: part of the deal. If we don't talk about this stuff,

594
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: if we can't get more transparency around the data that

595
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: will allow us to make better decisions, it's never going

596
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: to go away. And look It's the same thing with

597
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: the diversity and tech deal. If Tracy had never started

598
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: collecting data around how many people worked in tech, how

599
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: many women were on the team at pinterest, UM, there

600
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: would never have been that like light bulb moment right about,

601
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: oh God, this is worse than we thought. And then

602
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: that pushed other companies to share, and it's continuing to

603
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: push the conversation. UM. So yes, I think absolutely having

604
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: more salary transparency and there being a pressure for more

605
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: companies to dig into this stuff has the capacity to

606
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: really truly change the experience of people working in tech

607
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: and other industries. We know that stuff. Mom never told

608
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: you listeners care about what goes into the menstrual products

609
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: they used, while we're here to tell you about Lola.

610
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: Lola was founded with a simple and seemingly obvious idea

611
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: that women shouldn't have to compromise when it comes to tampons,

612
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: and since Lola was created by women for women, they

613
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 1: created a product they'd use themselves. So here it is, y'all.

614
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: Lola tampons are one natural and one percent easy to

615
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: feel good about, and Lola comes in a simple, customizable subscription,

616
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: so you'll never need to make another frantic trip to

617
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: the drug store. Lola delivers exactly what you need when

618
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 1: you need it, and lucky you, Lola has a special

619
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: offer just for sminty listeners for sixty percent off your

620
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: first order. Visit my Lola dot com and enter the

621
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,959
Speaker 1: promo code mom stuff when you subscribe, and you're gonna

622
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: want to subscribe right away. Lola tampons are one cotton

623
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: with b p A, free plastic applicators, and the subscription

624
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: is super flexible. You can change, skip, or cancel at

625
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: any time, so don't forget. Head over to milela dot

626
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: com and enter the code mom stuff for si off

627
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: your first order. So, in the spirit of transparency, I'm

628
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: going to share a little bit of a related issue

629
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: that I have personally with this and I've never known

630
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: what to do about it. Um So, like I said,

631
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: I never negotiated when I came onto my my first

632
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: professional job, and I feel like I have been having

633
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: to make up for that. But the last time I

634
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: had to negotiate for my salary, I walked in knowing

635
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: for a fact that I was paid less than my

636
00:38:53,760 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: male coworkers doing arguably identical work. And when I brought

637
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: that up to the HR manager who I was negotiating with,

638
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: and said, listen, I know that I need an extra

639
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: bump because you've got to even this out. And she said,

640
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how you know that information, but it

641
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: is not applicable to this conversation, and became very hostile

642
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: in her tone towards me, as if knowing me knowing

643
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: that and bringing it up with something that I shouldn't have.

644
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: And I know I'm still not being paid equally. I

645
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: know I make less. For a fact, I know I

646
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: make less than my mail co workers who are at

647
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: the exact same level, who have the exact same title.

648
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: So what is someone in my position who's not at

649
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: a salesforce, who doesn't have like a company initiative for

650
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: sales for salary transparency? What do all of the women

651
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: listening to this in my position do? Christian? That is heartbringing.

652
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry here you're dealing with AT and UM,

653
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: it's so frustrating. And I know that plenty of other

654
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: people have been in your same position. UM. I think

655
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: it helps to just sort of help. It helps to

656
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: remind and teach people that while there are amazing folks

657
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: who work in HR and who want to help the

658
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: people on their team and advocate for them as much

659
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: as possible. There are also just at the end of

660
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: the day, things that they cannot help you with or

661
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: their hands are tied because ultimately h R works for

662
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: the company, right like HR yes often is wonderful and

663
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: wants to help you, but at the end of the day,

664
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: their role is to protect the business. So there is

665
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: there are going to be situations, um like this really

666
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: unfortunate one that you find yourself in where you go

667
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: to the person who you've been told is supposed to

668
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: help you in this situation and they're kind of telling you, I,

669
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to be hearing this, you know, like

670
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: this isn't something that we want to address well. And

671
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: the funny thing was, at the end of the whole process,

672
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: because we did go back and forth on some things,

673
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: she she emailed me with like the final terms and

674
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: all of that and noted, you know, you are a

675
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: tough negotiator, and I, oh, wow, I just didn't know

676
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,399
Speaker 1: what what to think about it, And honestly, I've kind

677
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: of just put it in the back of my head

678
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: ever since, because you know, what does someone in this

679
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: position do? Now? Do you walk into your boss's office

680
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: and say hey, I want I want to know you

681
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: know how much more you owe me, like because you

682
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: know that's not probably not going to work. Yeah, and

683
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: this is so tricky, I think to like really speaks

684
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: to how difficult these problems are once they surface, like

685
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: deciding how you're going to move forward. And again I

686
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: had very similar experience to you. I was working for

687
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: a company I loved, and then you know, I pulled

688
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: aside to find out that I was not just underpaid,

689
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: but like really really really underpaid, like more than half

690
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: um and then to have to decide how to move forward.

691
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: I think in my case, um, I recognized my privilege

692
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: and that I could take some time start interviewing at

693
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: other places. Like now that I was armed with this

694
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: information on my real market worth, right, I get start

695
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: digging in with other people and get that validated. I

696
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: could do more research. And you know, everyone knows that

697
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: when you change jobs, when you're able to negotiate for

698
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: a new salary at a new company, usually that's your

699
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: best bet to get the most money. You're generally going

700
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: to get way more money when you're negotiating for an

701
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: offer at a new company. Then you will be able

702
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: to internally at your at your company. And some of

703
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: that is based on what we talked about before, Like,

704
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: a lot of corp rations will already have rules in

705
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: place around what percentage of your current comp they can

706
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 1: increase UM in some cases. Unfortunately, also there are compensation buckets,

707
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: so like, let's say your manager has five direct reports,

708
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: they may only have X amount of dollars to divvy

709
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 1: up between those five direct reports and a given quarter

710
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: or a given year. And so even if you're doing

711
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: phenomenally and your thirty dollars underpaid, your manager may feel

712
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: obligated to still split that bucket in a way that

713
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 1: is not fair to you, but they believe it's fair

714
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: to those five people. Right, So, um, there are all

715
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: these intricacies that you have to take into consideration when

716
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,479
Speaker 1: you look at what possibly could happen if you push

717
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: back again, Right, if you go back um past the

718
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: HR conversation that was already so scary and terrible to

719
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: have UM and really demand that you're paid market rate

720
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: and like escalate this issue because you could totally be

721
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: punished even though you shouldn't be. And the law says

722
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: that your employer cannot punish you for you know that

723
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: there cannot be retaliation, that you can't lose your job

724
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: because you push back about salary. We all know that

725
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 1: that's not realistic in many cases, right UM. And frankly,

726
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: not everyone can afford to go against the man UM,

727
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: file an e o C complaint or get an employment

728
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: attorney to file a lawsuit for you about your wrongful

729
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: termination um, and then wait, however many months or years

730
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 1: it takes to get some sort of resolution on that, right.

731
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 1: Some people don't have the luxury to sit out for

732
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: that many months or years UM. And so it really

733
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: comes down to like what your risk tolerances, UM, What

734
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: what is best for you right now? UM? When you

735
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: look at your budget, when you look at the amount

736
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: of time you have to maybe be out of the

737
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: job of this thing goes self um, And it sucks.

738
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 1: It's totally not fair to you, UM that you even

739
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: have to consider these factors. But you know, the truth

740
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,240
Speaker 1: for many women, many people in general in this country,

741
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: is that they live paycheck to paycheck, or they have

742
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: family members that they care for who are dependent on

743
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,479
Speaker 1: their income, and if they have conversations or do things

744
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: that might jeopardize the stability of that income. Um, there's

745
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: some really real consequences they have to consider. We don't

746
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: all have a luxury of being able to storm in

747
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: and say like, this is super terrible, what you're doing

748
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: is not right. I've already asked, you know, in the

749
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: way that I you know, I've already asked politely if

750
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: that's what and frankly, you're still screwing me over, Like

751
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: that's the conversation we want to have. But many of

752
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: us are just not in a position to be able

753
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: to do that, and so unfortunately a lot of these cases,

754
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: getting that information that you're now armed with, building it

755
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: up right, supporting it with even more documentation and information

756
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: about your market worth, and starting to research employers who

757
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: have more inclusive practices, and you are gonna be a

758
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: better fit for you over time and really value you

759
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: and support you and pay you what you're worth. That

760
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: might be your happy ending. But I know that that's

761
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: not the simple answer for everyone. Yeah, I mean, the

762
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: you know, sort of time tested way that many people

763
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: approach this problem is they just go out and get

764
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: another offer, right, and then bring it to their current

765
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: employer and say, hey, I have this really appealing offer.

766
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: This over the company can you match it? Uh? And,

767
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: like we talked about before, for women who negotiate, we

768
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: always have to keep in mind that there is this

769
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: backlash about women negotiating on their own behalf. So if

770
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: you take this approach and you do go out and

771
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: interview elsewhere and get a really great competitive offer, but

772
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: you like your job and you would rather stay than

773
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: when you go present that to your current boss, you

774
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: have to present it in a way that's basically like, look,

775
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: I was contacted by this other company. I felt like

776
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 1: I owed it to myself to just you know, have

777
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: the conversation with them. They have made me this very

778
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: competitive offer, but I love being here. This is where

779
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: I want to stay. You know. I love the contribution

780
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: and making on this team. I don't want to have

781
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: to go there. But given you know, the market rates,

782
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: this is a very difficult offer for me to turn down.

783
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: Is there any way that you could need it so

784
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: that I could stick around here and you know, continue

785
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: making contributions here. This is where I want to be

786
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: if you can just match the salary offer, So that

787
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: might be another way to kind of get around it.

788
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: If like, hey, just pay us fairly isn't really getting

789
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 1: you where you want to be. Do you think getting

790
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: dinged for have it? And of course getting dinged is

791
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: like massively understanding the issue, But do you mean getting

792
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: dinged for having those negotiation conversations, like having the kind

793
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: of conversation that Kristen did. Uh? Do you think the

794
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: penalties are higher if you're a woman of color? Can

795
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: you imagine if if I'm a black woman going in there,

796
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: like I walk right into that angry black woman's stereotypes?

797
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: So absolutely right, you have to deal with many more

798
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: of those challenges when you have multiple aspects of your

799
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: identity that are marginalized. So I do think it's really

800
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: fascinating how a lot of this so called radical transparency

801
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: is taking off in Silicon Valley and with digital companies

802
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: that at the same time have so many public issues

803
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: with gender and diversity. So why do you think that

804
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: this is really where a lot of this conversation is

805
00:48:54,400 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: stemming from? Like why the tech industry? I think the

806
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: tech industry really prides itself on being innovative and forward thinking,

807
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: so there are much more comfortable with and likely to

808
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: try new things, And I think that's one of the

809
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: aspects that makes working on this problem within this industry

810
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 1: so exciting and gives me the hopeful things because there's

811
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: a lot to be depressed and frustrated about every day. UM.

812
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: But you know, you look at Etsy or Netflix or

813
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: any of these large and more successful tech companies coming

814
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: out and announcing fantastic benefits. For example, Netflix will give

815
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: you out to a year of paid leave for parent

816
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: parents right of any gender. UM. That's fantastic in a

817
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: country that is alone with Popua New Guinea and not

818
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: offering paid maternity leave, that's huge, right. So those kind

819
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: of UM offerings where the tech industry is trying to

820
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 1: push the edge, which is something that basic like everyone

821
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: prides themselves on UM is really great for us. And

822
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: at the same time, within particular companies, you know, it

823
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: really sort depends on the culture and what the real

824
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 1: message and commitment is from the top. Some of those

825
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: companies are just kind of trying to check the box off, right,

826
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: Like this isn't a problem they really want to spend

827
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 1: a lot of time on, but they feel the pressure

828
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: that they need to address it, so they'll say, oh, yeah,

829
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: you know, let's implement the Rooney rule and make sure

830
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: that we at least interview the minority for every open role,

831
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: UM check that box. You know, we'll do some of

832
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: these initiatives, but there's not a core commitment to the

833
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: addressing the problem, whereas at other companies and in tech

834
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: in particular, you know, our clients are really proud of UM,

835
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: have a deep commitment to these issues and are trying

836
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: to do comprehensive reforms and initiatives to make sure that

837
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: they are creating a truly equitable and inclusive place for work.

838
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: And in both cases, the policies are great, but the

839
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: overall outcome is going to be different depending on the

840
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: specific company. So to circle back to the parental leave issue.

841
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: For example, if it's all great and wonderful if you

842
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: have you know, unlimited vacation or up to your parental leave,

843
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: but what's the kind of unspoken messaging, right, Like, is

844
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: there a common knowledge at the company that if you're

845
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: a dad and you take your full ten weeks of

846
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: paid leaves, so that's career suicide even though it's on

847
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: the books, that's the policy, right, So it definitely always

848
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: has kind of a drill down like what's really going

849
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,879
Speaker 1: on in the particular company where you are, regardless of

850
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: what the written policy might be. And I really like that,

851
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 1: you know, for all the flak that the millennials get,

852
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: you know, we're doing some really great stuff. I mean,

853
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: I feel like we are leading the charge in terms

854
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: of revolutionizing the workplace culture, and this is one example

855
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: of it. Sadly, it is a story that we hear

856
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 1: over and over and over and over and over again.

857
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: So it's personal and it's terrifying for you to talk

858
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: about it. But it's really powerful that you're doing that

859
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: because it allows other people to realize they're not the

860
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: only ones having that experience and that it is not normal. Well,

861
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: and part of why I don't usually talk about it

862
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: is because it's also embarrassing. Total Yeah, yeah, hey man,

863
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: I feel like, again, I, of all people, I should

864
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,280
Speaker 1: have known. How did I live like that many years underpaid?

865
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: When I'm supposed to be the expert at that in

866
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: my field? Uh, it is embarrassing. It sucks. It's like

867
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: financial literacy. I should have known all that stuff. But

868
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: sometimes it takes someone pulling you aside and you know,

869
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: giving me the tip be where you figure it all out.

870
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's a big aspect of this conversation

871
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: that's going on because Kristen, you say it's embarrassing, but

872
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: it's almost a trap. I see General Akbar in my

873
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: head yelling it's a trap because on the one hand,

874
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: we are supposed to be responsible for negotiating in a

875
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: way that nabs us the most money. But on the

876
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: other hand, we're not empowered in a lot of ways

877
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: to either know what the industry standard is or to

878
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: even think to research what the industry standard is. And

879
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: then certainly with if you're dealing with a hostile HR

880
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: person or a hostile manager, you're certainly not empowered to

881
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: be able to ask for more money or even ask

882
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: about what coworkers are being paid on average, and so like, yes, well,

883
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: I totally agree that it is embarrassing to realize like, oh,

884
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: I've contributed to being underpaid. It's such a trap. Well,

885
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: and hostility, as said, it's all of the unconscious biases

886
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: that you as a woman, a woman of color, like

887
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: whatever your layers of identity are, um as you two

888
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: were talking about at the beginning of our conversation, where

889
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: it's impossible for us to have a completely objective negotiation process.

890
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: And I do realize, of course that it's admiral akbar,

891
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: my apologies here, gonna get some mad Star Wars, you know, Um,

892
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say yeah, and you know on

893
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: these topics, I mean, I will say I have a

894
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: lot of mixed feelings about the Sheryl Sandberg leen in

895
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: ethos um And definitely it is empowering for women to

896
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: go out and get this information and learn specific strategies

897
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: for how to negotiate on their own. Behalf. Reading that

898
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: book Why Women Don't Act or Women Don't Ask is

899
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: really great. Um, you know, like it's a really good book.

900
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: It's very informative. It helped me in my personal negotiations.

901
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: And then at the same time in our work, Ashley

902
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: and I are constantly trying to also come at it

903
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: from the company angle and encouraging companies to not contribute

904
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: to a situation where con cently individual employees are basically

905
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: just out there trying to battle it on their own

906
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: for getting paid what they're worth. This is why we

907
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 1: advocate having this salary transparency as a company policy. Um.

908
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: You know, we can help one another as employees by

909
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: starting these conversations and talking to each other about what

910
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: we make and you know, giving each other hand up

911
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: to a greater path to wealth and to being paid

912
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: what we're worth. So I, on the one hand, yes,

913
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: you know, like there's so much that you can do

914
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: on your own as an individual, UM, learn more about

915
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: ways to approach these issues. And on the other hand,

916
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: it's going to take a big group effort. It's going

917
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: to take us supporting one another. It's going to take

918
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: companies involving their culture and practices to be more equitable

919
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: and fair. Well, I think that's the perfect note to

920
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: end on. Gina and Ashuley, thank you so much for

921
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: talking to us. Also, even before that, Gina, thank you

922
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: for messaging Caroline and me before south By Southwest listeners.

923
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: That's all how this went down, UM, And can you

924
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: let our listeners know how they can find out more

925
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: about you and what recruit her is all about and

926
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: what you all are doing. Sure, you can visit our

927
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: website at recruit her dot io and that has all

928
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: the information about how you can connect with us. We

929
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: have an email newsletter you can sign up for if

930
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: you're looking for a job or you just want to

931
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: know what's out there. You can register and give us

932
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: your resume and we'll see if we have something that

933
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: matches you with one of the tech companies. That's our clients.

934
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: We also offer career coaching through our amazing executive and

935
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 1: career coach area hunter um and the variety of options

936
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 1: the packages available for that, so look us up online.

937
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Twitter and Facebook and

938
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: LinkedIn what's your Twitter handle? Well, there's recruit her for

939
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: the business Twitter and then I am Gina help Rick,

940
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 1: no spaces just all one word UM and Ashley Ashley Underscore,

941
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: Doyle d y a L. Well. Thank you so much

942
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: to Gina Healthfrik and Ashley Doyle, the founders of recruit

943
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: Her for talking to Caroline and me not only on

944
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: the podcast but also at south By Southwest. It has

945
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: been so great to build this relationship in such a

946
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: quick time, UM, with these women who have so many

947
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 1: insights on these issues. I feel like Caroline, we hear

948
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: a lot about in terms of women you need to

949
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: negotiate more and know you're worth But they're really offering

950
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:46,479
Speaker 1: these sharper tools for actually making those kinds of things happen. Yeah,

951
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: maybe we should start our own Google doc for all

952
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: Sminty listeners and you can just go in and put

953
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: your job title like your salary and your hourly wage,

954
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: and we can all look and see what other what

955
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: do other feminist podcasters make? What? What do other writers

956
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: and waitresses and actresses make? Well? And we'd also have

957
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: to make sure that we get some dudes to PLoP

958
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: their salaries in there so that we can really compare

959
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: and see how much we're really making or not. UM.

960
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: But I'm sure that listeners have so many thoughts about

961
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: our conversation with Gina and Ashley. UM. So first, if

962
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about them, you can head

963
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: over to their website again, it's recruit her dot io. UM.

964
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: And you can also listeners send us your letters about

965
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: all of this. Have you encountered any of these issues

966
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: in your workplace? Have you ever done the thing of

967
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: asking your coworkers how much they make? How did you

968
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: do that? How did your boss respond? Yes, I'm asking

969
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: for tips. Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is

970
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: our email address. You can also tweet us at mom

971
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got a

972
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay,

973
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Christine's Salinger, and I

974
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: would not normally read off a listener's full name in

975
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: the listener mail segment, but we actually mentioned and cited

976
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: Christine in our episode on disability and sexuality. So here's

977
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: what Christine had to say. A friend recently told me

978
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: that you quoted me in a podcast. I wanted to

979
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: go back and check it out. Thanks for doing that.

980
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: It's really great and you managed to cover a lot

981
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: in that quick hour. A couple of things I wanted

982
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: to hit on. Number one, the word suffered. You described

983
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: me as someone who suffered a spinal cord injury, and

984
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: this is a word I generally try to avoid. Instead,

985
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: I used the phrase I sustained my spinal cord injury.

986
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 1: The reason for this is that suffering carries a lot

987
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: of negative connotations, the image of a person who you

988
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: should pity, and it's really just not true for me.

989
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: As with many other people with disabilities, as you sort

990
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: of hit on in your podcast, disability is still seen

991
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: as being bad or lesser. So there's an assumption that

992
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: having a disability makes you suffer, but for many of

993
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: us that isn't true. We each live with our disabilities.

994
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: They are a part of us, in a part of

995
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 1: our normal. Number two actors near the end of your podcast,

996
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: you talk about seeing more people with disabilities in media,

997
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: and now that's great. I find it to be such

998
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 1: a shame that they are most often portrayed by people

999
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: who don't actually have that disability. It may be understandable

1000
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: when talking about a movie or TV show where the

1001
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: character is depicted both with and without their disabilities, such

1002
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: as the Theory of Everything, but I don't believe it's

1003
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: right or okay for films like Avatar or television shows

1004
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: likely to use actors that don't have that disability. Just

1005
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: as we don't see actors in black face anymore, we

1006
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't be seeing actors pretending to have disabilities. I'd also

1007
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: love to see disability in media normalized, so that we

1008
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: see even extras as people with disabilities and not always

1009
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: a central character who's fighting against their disability in some way. Anyway,

1010
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: thanks again so much. I really believe that the more

1011
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: people know, the more accepting society will become. And thank

1012
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: you so much, Christine. We appreciate your letting. And I've

1013
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: gotta let her hear from Meredith about the same podcast episode,

1014
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: and she writes, I was so excited to see a

1015
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: podcast addressing sexuality and disability. As being an occupational therapist,

1016
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: this is something I addressed frequently with my patients. However,

1017
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: I was disappointed that there wasn't a single mention of

1018
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: occupational therapy and the services they offer to help people

1019
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: learn and manage your sexuality after an injury. We were

1020
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: instead clustered in a therapy services that do not address this.

1021
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: In rehab, occupational therapy is a frequently misunderstood part of

1022
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: the treatment team. We address daily functions and occupations like

1023
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 1: activities of daily living of people of any age, ability

1024
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: and diagnosis, and this can be getting dressed, driving, money management,

1025
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: and even sex. I've attached to link below to our

1026
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 1: national organization addressing the role of occup facitional therapy in

1027
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: sexuality and just thought you should know so listeners. That

1028
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: addresses over at a O t A dot org if

1029
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about occupational therapy and Meredith,

1030
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: thank you so much for shining a light on that

1031
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: important work that you do and now, listeners, we want

1032
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: to hear from you as always. Mom Stuff at how

1033
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: stuffworks dot com is our email address and for links

1034
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all

1035
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so

1036
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: you can learn more about salary transparency and recruit her.

1037
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never told You dot com.

1038
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit

1039
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com