1
00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,440
Speaker 1: Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

2
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,879
Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and

3
00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling. Revalry. No, no, sibling.

4
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 1: You don't do that with your mouth. Revelry. That's good.

5
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,519
Speaker 1: So this week we have our final episode of the

6
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,000
Speaker 1: season with Mark Epstein, who you may remember from an

7
00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 1: earlier episode. We loved him so much we wanted to

8
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,800
Speaker 1: have him back on. He is a psychiatrist who looks

9
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 1: at the ways in which Buddhism can enrich Western approaches

10
00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,800
Speaker 1: to psychology. He's just the absolute best because latest book

11
00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:05,560
Speaker 1: is called The Zen of Therapy, Uncovering a Hidden Kindness

12
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: in Life. You're gonna like it. Just listen. These are

13
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,759
Speaker 1: first repeat offenders. I know. I love it. Hi. Hi,

14
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,679
Speaker 1: it's nice to see you again. Nice to see you both.

15
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 1: You're very kind to have me again. Of course, as

16
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,680
Speaker 1: we were just saying you're a first repeat offender, I

17
00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:35,760
Speaker 1: caught that. I caught that. Well. It's so nice to

18
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,640
Speaker 1: have you back, and I'm excited because you have a

19
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 1: new book coming out and we get to talk a

20
00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,920
Speaker 1: bit about this and it does it does bring back

21
00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 1: a lot of what we talked about the last time,

22
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,080
Speaker 1: which is you're the intersection of your therapy and the

23
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:55,800
Speaker 1: science behind psychotherapy and meditation. So the intersection yes, yes,

24
00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: of Buddhism, Buddhism and traditional psychology. Yes, is something that

25
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: it needs, its needs. It almost needs to happen. I mean,

26
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,800
Speaker 1: it just seems it needed to happen. It needed for me,

27
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,800
Speaker 1: It needed to happen because the Buddhist the Buddhist thing

28
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,799
Speaker 1: came to me first. So so I was like, oh,

29
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 1: this is this is answering a lot of questions for

30
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 1: me and I and I really you know, embraced it

31
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,440
Speaker 1: as as much as I could and then had to

32
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 1: figure out something to do with my life. So decided

33
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 1: that being a therapist was, you know, the the most

34
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 1: attractive option, I think. So then then I felt, oh,

35
00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 1: it's sort of incumbent upon me. I can't abandon the

36
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,600
Speaker 1: Buddhist thing, but I have to really be a therapist,

37
00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 1: so can I can? It seemed like they should be

38
00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,680
Speaker 1: able to work together, but I didn't have that much.

39
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,920
Speaker 1: I had rammed us. You know, I had a few

40
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 1: a few guiding lights, but they don't really train you

41
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,800
Speaker 1: that well, to be a therapist, they just because I

42
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 1: did it through the medical route where you'd like, do

43
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,519
Speaker 1: the courses and then suddenly they put you in a

44
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 1: room with a patient, you know, and okay, you're the

45
00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: doctor now. So so I had so I could sort

46
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 1: of make it up as I went along, or learn

47
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 1: by doing would be another way, a less facetious way

48
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,840
Speaker 1: of saying that maybe we'll get into the boodism aspect

49
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 1: of it all, but just therapy in general, because we've

50
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,200
Speaker 1: both been in it for a thousand years, this popped

51
00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,279
Speaker 1: into my head, you know, to be a good therapist

52
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,960
Speaker 1: just in general, does it take a certain attribute, a

53
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 1: certain sort of not personal experience necessarily, but is it empathy?

54
00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,280
Speaker 1: You know? Is it listening? Like is there a certain

55
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,200
Speaker 1: sort of component to being a really good therapist? I

56
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,640
Speaker 1: know what I have a feeling. I know what Mark's

57
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,080
Speaker 1: going to say. Okay, okay, I think it's curiosity. I

58
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,560
Speaker 1: think I think it'suriosity. Like in in my book, I

59
00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,200
Speaker 1: quote a friend of mine, a therapist friend of mine

60
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: is saying that a therapist is uh one part gossip

61
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 1: and one part voyeur. So I think it's the it's

62
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 1: the it's curiosity. Really and a willingness to put yourself

63
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 1: aside in a certain way, like the vacation from therapy,

64
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: Like you don't have to think about yourself being a therapist.

65
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 1: You have to use what comes up in your own

66
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,839
Speaker 1: mind while you're listening. But really it's such a relief

67
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,839
Speaker 1: from yourself because you're immersed in what's going on with

68
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 1: the other person. And I think maybe, I think maybe

69
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 1: empathy comes out of those qualities, you know, the curiosity

70
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,719
Speaker 1: and the willingness to put yourself to one side. But

71
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,279
Speaker 1: I think, you know, or friendship, like is how is

72
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 1: therapy maybe just another kind of friendship? I sometimes wonder,

73
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,400
Speaker 1: So that need in the you know, in the therapist

74
00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,560
Speaker 1: for the friendship or the intimacy I think is also motivated. Yeah,

75
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 1: because it's the most intimate relationship, isn't it. Like I

76
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,480
Speaker 1: find that, you know, my my relationship to the therapist

77
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,839
Speaker 1: that I've had, which aren't that many I've had really

78
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 1: too too, And I mean it's the most intimate. They

79
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,719
Speaker 1: know everything you know, and it's not the most intimate hopefully,

80
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:28,359
Speaker 1: but rules I think that's that kind of intimacy, but

81
00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:33,599
Speaker 1: like the most emotionally kind of well honest, I think

82
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,000
Speaker 1: it's that's what it's striving for, is honesty, right, because

83
00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 1: because so much of so much of being in therapy

84
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 1: is saying the things that you're ashamed of or embarrassed about,

85
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,840
Speaker 1: or you know that you don't even know. Like Mark,

86
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 1: how many how many times have you been in a

87
00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 1: session where you're like, I just they're just lying to

88
00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 1: me all the time? Have you ever had to like, actually,

89
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,960
Speaker 1: that really has happened to me when people are doing

90
00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 1: heroine or drinking surreptitiously and not telling anyone in their

91
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 1: lives about it and including me. So I have had

92
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 1: that happen and it comes out much later. Oh yeah, Well,

93
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,600
Speaker 1: well I'm not saying that I've lied to my therapist

94
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 1: necessarily withheld, oh withheld my entire life. I'm not anybody withhold. No,

95
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,039
Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding, like you know, and this is

96
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 1: all public knowledge. But like I was, I went through

97
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 1: a period of infidelity with my now wife, who was

98
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,359
Speaker 1: my fiance at the time, for two years, and I

99
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,080
Speaker 1: was spiraling. I mean I was drinking, I was partying,

100
00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,640
Speaker 1: I was with other women. I was out of my

101
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,080
Speaker 1: mind and I didn't get caught. I told her because

102
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't live with myself and told her story. We

103
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,480
Speaker 1: got into therapy with with my therapist and he was like,

104
00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,279
Speaker 1: I didn't know any of this shit like I was.

105
00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,599
Speaker 1: I didn't tell him one thing nothing, He didn't know anything,

106
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,320
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh okay. And meanwhile, for two and

107
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 1: a half years, I was going every week like hey, man,

108
00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,920
Speaker 1: like things are good. You know, life is pretty good,

109
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 1: working man engage. Yeah, And I was just in a

110
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 1: downward spiral shame addiction type of yeah. Well, I had

111
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 1: a lot of lower case well. I don't think it's

112
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 1: only like when you when you try to force your

113
00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,360
Speaker 1: adolescent children into therapy and they're not ready. I think

114
00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,600
Speaker 1: that that's a very common thing where where they go.

115
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 1: They go to the therapist, but they don't really talk

116
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: about what. Well, Ollie was twenty nine, so that's pretty young.

117
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 1: That's not even you were close. I was maybe twenty seven,

118
00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,120
Speaker 1: twenties twenty seven. But I just then came, Then came

119
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 1: the release, then came the anxiety, then came the panic attacks,

120
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,080
Speaker 1: and we're still still doing There was just a lot

121
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 1: of shame, like I was. I was so ashamed that

122
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 1: I couldn't even tell my own therapist. Yeah, can you

123
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: be a narcissist and a therapist? Oh? Good question? Only?

124
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 1: Oh I think there are there, There are many of them. Yeah,

125
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,840
Speaker 1: I think I think you can be You can be

126
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 1: messed up in all kinds of ways and still be

127
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,120
Speaker 1: a decent therapist if you if you adhere to the

128
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,240
Speaker 1: restrictions that being a therapist requires. You know, uh, but

129
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 1: get when you like coming up around therapist, being trained

130
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,560
Speaker 1: around therapists and seeing who these people really are in

131
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 1: there like in their regular lives, it's it's it's pretty disturbing.

132
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 1: And we talked about this before because you were on before,

133
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,839
Speaker 1: but we have so many new listeners. Let's let's get

134
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: into your Buddhism just for a second, just to gain

135
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 1: some context, you know, like, how did this, how did

136
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 1: this happen? Where did you discover it? What it did

137
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 1: for you? I I I discovered Buddhism in my freshman

138
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,480
Speaker 1: year in college by taking an Introduction to World Religion

139
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,240
Speaker 1: class that I wasn't planning on taking. But I met

140
00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,960
Speaker 1: a young woman and also a freshman in the first

141
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 1: week of school who was taking the class, so I

142
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,000
Speaker 1: followed her into the class. And it's satisfied a requirement

143
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,640
Speaker 1: and the and the whole first semester was Eastern religion,

144
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: and the whole second semester was Western religion. And the

145
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 1: Eastern religion was Buddhism and Daoism and Hinduism. And we

146
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 1: just read the the the texts, you know. For Daoism

147
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,160
Speaker 1: we read the dad Teaching, and for Buddhism we read

148
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,360
Speaker 1: the Damapada, and for Hinduism we read the Bagavad Gito

149
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 1: or something, and that the Buddhist stuff just like lit

150
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 1: me up, like like, oh, I remember. One of the

151
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:45,079
Speaker 1: first poems was like the untrained mind, the anxious mind

152
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 1: is like a fish flapping on dry ground, you know.

153
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,720
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that's what my mind is like.

154
00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: And so and then there was just like one thing

155
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 1: after another. In college, there was a lot of Buddhism

156
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,439
Speaker 1: floating around the Pariah and I met. I took a

157
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 1: psychology class and the person who was the graduate student

158
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:08,880
Speaker 1: who was teaching it was a guy named Daniel Goleman,

159
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,160
Speaker 1: who went on to be the psychology writer for the

160
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,360
Speaker 1: New York Times, and he wrote Emotional Intelligence. But in

161
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 1: those days, he was just back from India. He'd been

162
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,960
Speaker 1: with Ramdas already he knew about Buddhism, and he sort

163
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 1: of took me under his wing and said, if you

164
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,080
Speaker 1: want to learn more about this, my friends are all

165
00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,240
Speaker 1: teaching out in Boulder, Colorado this summer. You should go

166
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: out there. It's a long story. I'm sorry, I love it,

167
00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,680
Speaker 1: but I listened to him. I went out to this

168
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 1: place called Naropa Institute, which was in Boulder nineteen seventy four.

169
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,600
Speaker 1: I was twenty years old, and it was like a

170
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,679
Speaker 1: Buddhist woodstock sort of thing. Like all of California was there,

171
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,000
Speaker 1: and a lot of the New York art world was there,

172
00:10:53,080 --> 00:11:01,360
Speaker 1: and I was like this young wide eyed person. Joseph

173
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,560
Speaker 1: Goldstein and Jack Cornfield and Sharon Salzburg and Ramdas and

174
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:11,599
Speaker 1: Gregory Bates, and I remember this story all now. I'm like,

175
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,439
Speaker 1: was this a drug induced thing? As well? I think

176
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,960
Speaker 1: you asked the same question the last Well, a lot

177
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,200
Speaker 1: of the I mean a lot of the people who

178
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:25,240
Speaker 1: were there were were pulled in because of their psychedelic experiences,

179
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 1: you know. And then and and one half of it

180
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,560
Speaker 1: was Ramdas with all who had been Richard Albert, who

181
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,199
Speaker 1: had been Timothy Leary's associate, who had been kicked out

182
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,160
Speaker 1: of Harvard before I got there. So there was a

183
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:45,480
Speaker 1: whole psychedelic you know, leftover some kind of thing, and

184
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 1: then a Tibetan Buddhist lama you know, teaching. But it

185
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,840
Speaker 1: was an attempt to channel the psychedelic experiences in a

186
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 1: more you know, to find the spiritual element and to

187
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 1: begin to integrate that into a Western life, you know.

188
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 1: So that that that grabbed me, and I gravitated towards

189
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:16,480
Speaker 1: the mindfulness teachers uh and started doing silent retreats. Two

190
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,520
Speaker 1: weeks silent retreats. I did a series of them, uh uh.

191
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,679
Speaker 1: And that that's what showed me that, oh, meditation, it's

192
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,199
Speaker 1: not some it's it's not just what I've read about.

193
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,880
Speaker 1: It's actually a real experience and doing it and with

194
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,640
Speaker 1: some kind of intensity, you know, in silence for two weeks,

195
00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,040
Speaker 1: trying to be mindful moment to moment of whatever's happening. Uh, it's, oh,

196
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,880
Speaker 1: this is a real thing, like my like my mind

197
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,640
Speaker 1: can actually do this. And did you find not to

198
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 1: be completely transformative like you're silent the silent retreats or

199
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,880
Speaker 1: was it? It It wasn't complete? No, it's like it doesn't

200
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 1: make you a different person, but it got me out

201
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 1: of my head. Basically, I was very much you know,

202
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,720
Speaker 1: like worrying, anxious thinking. I was, you know, a smart

203
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 1: I'd like to read, et cetera. But I was very

204
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:12,200
Speaker 1: much located in my thinking mind. And the meditation pulled me,

205
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: you know. It showed me that that was just one

206
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,000
Speaker 1: aspect of who I was, that it wasn't the complete thing,

207
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 1: and that there was more on a feeling level, on

208
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 1: a heart level, and that even my mind was more

209
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 1: than just my thoughts, that my mind was actually this

210
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 1: kind of expanse that was full of stuff I didn't

211
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: know about. How long did it take you to liberate?

212
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 1: And how long did it take you to have that

213
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 1: sort of breakthrough? You know, it took about three days

214
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 1: in a silent retreat. Like the first three days, I

215
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,800
Speaker 1: was struggling always with can I do this? And this

216
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 1: is so boring and I'm no good at this and

217
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: it's this is just you know, and then but I'm

218
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm sort of disciplined in how I have approached you know,

219
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 1: a lot of things in my life. So I just

220
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 1: plugged away at it, and at a certain point my

221
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,439
Speaker 1: mind calmed down. Do you remember the moment I remember

222
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 1: the moment, Yeah, because it can happen like that when

223
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 1: it just holy shit. Yeah, I remember the moment, and

224
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 1: it was quite profound for me really, and I was

225
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,640
Speaker 1: I became kind of filled with very intense loving feelings

226
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,640
Speaker 1: that I didn't know I was capable of. And I

227
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,560
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in further retreats chasing that feeling,

228
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, trying to recreate it, which the minute. Yeah,

229
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,760
Speaker 1: people do the silent meditation drug. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder

230
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 1: if that's a characteristic or something. I wonder. I think

231
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: it's a real tendency that people chase the you know

232
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,880
Speaker 1: that the first taste of something is really profound and

233
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 1: that and uh and then whatever the addictive thing is

234
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 1: in in somebody, it's like, oh I need I need

235
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 1: more of it. I wanted to repeat, we'll be able to.

236
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,400
Speaker 1: I think that's why you find a lot of addicts,

237
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, who then move into religion or spirituality and

238
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,520
Speaker 1: there's an addictive quality to it, you know too far.

239
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 1: I see that a lot for sure. Yeah. I had

240
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 1: one very good I was at a silent retreat maybe

241
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 1: five or six years ago, and and I was still

242
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 1: kind of subliminally chasing that that feeling like, oh, I know,

243
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: what can happen? Where is it? And whoever was doing

244
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 1: the teaching, doing the interviews, he was, he was very

245
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,320
Speaker 1: I knew that he knew what I was after. And

246
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:45,520
Speaker 1: he said, don't chase her mark, let her find you.

247
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 1: And he gendered it like that. And when he and

248
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 1: and the fact that he gendered it like that was

249
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 1: like I knew, I knew, he knew, you know, there

250
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 1: was something that you know, like the erotic aspect. Yeah,

251
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,520
Speaker 1: and let her find you. It was like, oh, yeah

252
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 1: that's the right. Yeah, yeah, ooh Aura. So I got

253
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: my aura. It's sleek, it's super cool. My kids loved it,

254
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 1: my wife loved it. So what the aura is? It's

255
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,480
Speaker 1: a frame and it brings all of your photos and

256
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 1: videos together in one high resolution display where you can

257
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: really enjoy them. So preload any frame with any memory,

258
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,280
Speaker 1: meaningful memories, silly memories, a special message, and it will

259
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: appear as soon as you set it up, so you know,

260
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 1: if Grandma is one thousand miles away, everyone is connected

261
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,120
Speaker 1: to this frame. So you can then add pictures and

262
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 1: add messages and add videos and stay crazy connected. You

263
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 1: can add unlimited photos and videos. You can invite as

264
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,639
Speaker 1: many people as you want to a frame. There's no

265
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:09,360
Speaker 1: hidden fees or subscriptions. It has the interactive touch bar,

266
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 1: so change photos, view details like photos and more with

267
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,960
Speaker 1: a simple tap or a swipe on the edge of

268
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 1: the frame, and keep your display smudge free so you know.

269
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 1: It's not like an iPad where you get all your

270
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 1: fingerprints everywhere. It's so clever. I absolutely love it. It

271
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: was named the number one digital frame by Wirecutter. It

272
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: was selected as one of Oprah's favorite things three years running,

273
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 1: so it's guaranteed to make Mama smile. I have to say,

274
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaker 1: if you're thinking of Mother's Day gifts, this would be

275
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 1: an absolutely perfect one. So from now until Mother's Day,

276
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 1: listeners can save on the perfect gift and get up

277
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,119
Speaker 1: to forty dollars off while supplies last, which is important.

278
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 1: Get supplies don't always last by visiting Auraframes dot com

279
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: slash sibling. That's au you are a frames dot com

280
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:12,239
Speaker 1: slash sibling. Terms and conditions supply outer known. I've been

281
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: wearing out or known long before it was cool. I

282
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,720
Speaker 1: want to brag about that they're comfortable and they fit amazing.

283
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,200
Speaker 1: It's completely my style by the way, just pack from Mexico.

284
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm leaving for Mexico. Actually, I brought all my outer

285
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 1: and own shirts. Oh you know what I was wearing,

286
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 1: and I went to I went to England for spring

287
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 1: break and I brought my incredibly cozy yellow zipped it

288
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,359
Speaker 1: has like a zip sweater and I wore it the

289
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 1: entire time. It was so cozy, it was so cute.

290
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 1: The stuff's amazing. The men's is yummy. I mean it's

291
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 1: like anything that any guy really wants to wear. Has

292
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,439
Speaker 1: something for everyone, and the ladies have some amazings if

293
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,959
Speaker 1: the jumpsuits are amazing. My sister in law wears her

294
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 1: Outernoon jumpsuits all the time. So outer Known was the

295
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 1: first brand founded on a total commitment to sustainability and

296
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,240
Speaker 1: everything they do. That's their focus. So go to outernoon

297
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,879
Speaker 1: dot com today and enter the code at sibling at

298
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: checkout and you'll get twenty five percent off your full

299
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 1: price order. That's outer Known dot com. Oh U T

300
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 1: E r k N O w N dot com and

301
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: remember to use the code sibling at checkout for twenty

302
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: five percent off. Check them out today if you want

303
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 1: to look like me Atternoon dot com and don't forget

304
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 1: promo code Sibling for twenty five percent off. The title

305
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: of your book is uncovering. I mean it's zenif the senatetherapy,

306
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 1: but then uncovering a hidden kindness in life. Yeah, and

307
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 1: I just want to kind of pinpoint, you know, where

308
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,400
Speaker 1: the kindness aspect comes in, Like what is that? Why

309
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 1: is that such a poignant word in the title, and

310
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 1: how does that relate to the therapy and the Buddhism together.

311
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,679
Speaker 1: Because therapy is an interpersonal event, you know, it's a

312
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,199
Speaker 1: really it's a relationship, it's a relational thing. I have

313
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: started to think about it as a as a two

314
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 1: person meditation, you know, like usually you think about meditation,

315
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 1: you go inside yourself and you're all alone in your solitude,

316
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: et cetera. But why not deploy the same kind of

317
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 1: attentional rigor or qualities in in in in an interpersonal thing. So,

318
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 1: because it's a relationship or kind of a you know,

319
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 1: spiritual friendship, I sometimes think about it as also that

320
00:20:54,520 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 1: when the the ruminations or the anxiety, or the over

321
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: elaborated thinking mind starts to fall away, you know, when

322
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: the conceptual mind loosens its grip, or when the ego

323
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,959
Speaker 1: gives up its attempts to control. You know, those are

324
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: all different ways of saying the same thing. I feel

325
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: I can relate to all of them too. What is

326
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 1: it that is allowed to emerge? You know, when that

327
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 1: when when the the restraint of all of that is quieted,

328
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,239
Speaker 1: and so it's some kind of heart thing, you know,

329
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,479
Speaker 1: like kindness that starts to come out. So the the

330
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 1: intimacy that is possible in therapy that really is maybe

331
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: just friendship or kind of caring one for the other,

332
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 1: or a sense of being appreciated or acknowledged or known.

333
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: You know, that all just feels like kindness to me.

334
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: And the the the Buddhist thing, the Buddhas psychology says

335
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: that that capacity is latent in all of us, that

336
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: that's really like our natural state, and that our our

337
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: egos get in the way, and you know, our need

338
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: to control what can't be controlled to get preoccupies us,

339
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 1: and then our fear steps in and then we're locked

340
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: into our own you know, small minds. But that the

341
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,479
Speaker 1: Buddha nature, you know, is this kind of kindness that

342
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: realizes that we're all kind of in the same predicament

343
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: and that we need each other mm hmmm. So it's

344
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: so interesting though, because everyone seeks the Buddha nature in

345
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: one way or another, whether you call it g got,

346
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: whatever it is. But essentially we wouldn't even exist. Mankind

347
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't exist without ego and power, struggle and war and

348
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: all of these things. I mean, what it though, you're

349
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: just making that ASSISI well, I'm assuming because imagine if

350
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: we all were of Buddha nature, then we yeah, we

351
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,479
Speaker 1: maybe living in the best well in the base we

352
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: will like that? Did you just make that? That's from Thurman,

353
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: That's from Robert. But I'm serious, like you know, no,

354
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: mankind wouldn't exist without mothers. Mankind wouldn't exist without mothers.

355
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: That's the and so the and and semen smen, yeah, semen.

356
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: They could get from anywhere, but it's the mothers. The

357
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: mothers are really doing. We can we can grab the river. Yes,

358
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: it's coming, that's coming soon. So the maternal aptitude, the ability,

359
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: you know, the the ability that's intrinsic in a mother

360
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: that doesn't destroy her baby when she made when the

361
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: baby makes her so pissed off and frustrated. That capacity

362
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: of a mother is related to the latent Buddha nature.

363
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: That's that's that's what the Dalai Lama always uses as

364
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: an illustration, And they even have have meditations where you

365
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: imagine that all beings have been your mother, or you've

366
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 1: been mother to all beings, so that you can cultivate

367
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: instead of the war. And and you know, so how

368
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: does how does a session work? Meaning how do you

369
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: integrate both Buddhism, meditation, and swer of traditional psychology. Well,

370
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 1: that's what I was trying to show in the book.

371
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: People are always asking me, you know, like how do

372
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: you bring Buddhism into the therapy? How to teach your

373
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: patients to meditate and so on, so and I'm always

374
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: giving like various equivocal answers to that because for a

375
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: long time I sort of kept the Buddhism part more

376
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: hidden and I didn't want to proselytize or lay it

377
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: on people. But people were actually interested, so then I

378
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: had to, you know, be a little bit more out

379
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: front with it. But so what I did in the

380
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: book was to try to capture one session just as

381
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: it as it went moment to moment per week for

382
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,959
Speaker 1: a year, to show how therapy it's really just someone

383
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: comes in with their life and they try to talk

384
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: about it, and I listen and try to respond in

385
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: a way that is helpful or truthful, and we just

386
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: talk about the mundane reality of somebody's struggle, you know.

387
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: And so how does the Buddhists, the Buddhist thing sneaks in,

388
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: I think in a couple of different ways. If it's

389
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: alive in any way in me, then somehow the way

390
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: that I'm listening, or the way that I'm talking, the

391
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: way that I'm responding, it has to be coming through.

392
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: So without trying to define that too much, I just

393
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: tried to show it. And so maybe it's in my humor,

394
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: or maybe it's in my curiosity, or maybe it's it's

395
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: in what I decide to focus on, which is usually

396
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: where the patient or client is clinging in some way

397
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: to some notion of what's wrong with them or with

398
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: their spouse or with their child, or with their life.

399
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: And whatever they've come up with is usually not the

400
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: whole picture. So if I can unstick them in some

401
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: way from whatever the fixed notion is of what's wrong,

402
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: then I think that's me being a good therapist, but

403
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: also using some kind of Buddhist something to create to

404
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: open the you know, open the field, open the mind

405
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: a little bit so that some new possibility could come through.

406
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: When you say clinging, that word really resonates with me

407
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: because of all the things that people say, right, it's

408
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: like sort of manifest in itself, Like so the repetitive

409
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,719
Speaker 1: things that I hear people say about me, right, if

410
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be like, oh, what's my part in this?

411
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: And what are the things that I hear a lot?

412
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: Because I listen to them, I know what they are.

413
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: I they're you know, and it always comes out like

414
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: tough or you know, impatient, right or things. But clinging

415
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: is actually really what I do. I actually have a

416
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 1: tendency to cling to things that matter or things that

417
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: I need or desire. It's like I never want to

418
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: let go of them. It's hard for me to like

419
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: r and so I wonder, you know, what is the

420
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: thing just maybe in general as a therapist, maybe or

421
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: as a Buddhist or both as both is the reason

422
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: why that's such a common concept that we all cling

423
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: to these ideas or we cling to our expectations, or

424
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: we can't let go that we hold so desperately. Is

425
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: that like a brain function? Is it a. I think

426
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: it's a psychological function. I think it's it's in an

427
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: emotional instinct almost. And I think the reason that meditation exists,

428
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: or the reason that it can be so engaging for people,

429
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: is that what it's really showing you in the recesses

430
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: of your own mind is always how you cling, you know,

431
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: like what you cling to and how you cling. That's

432
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: what when you're sitting and trying to watch your breath

433
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: or trying to watch your mind, what you see is that,

434
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: you know, like and and so because it becomes so obvious,

435
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: you know, like, really, oh, I'm having the same thought

436
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: one hundred times in half an hour about what, you know,

437
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to hold on to, or the way

438
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: somebody hurt my feelings, or what I'm hoping is going

439
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow. You know, that's all a kind of clinging.

440
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: And you get hip to that in meditation, so that

441
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: after the twentieth time of it coming up, you start

442
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: to pull away from the what's the word, from the

443
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: like the valance of it, from the intensity of it,

444
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, and you start to see it just as oh,

445
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: it's really there's that thought again, there's that there's that

446
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: feeling again, So you loosen your investment in the clinging.

447
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: You loosen I think the psychoanalytic word would be the

448
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: cathexis to it, but you know, we don't have to

449
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: use that word. But you loosen the attachment to the clinging.

450
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't look like a way, I don't,

451
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: but I feel like you cling to things that are familiar,

452
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: even if they're negative. Meaning sometimes people just exist better

453
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: in the chaos, even though they want out of it,

454
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: they can't seem to get out of it because it's

455
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: what they're familiar with. There's almost a safety in the negative. Oh,

456
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: you're totally right about that. I think I was. I

457
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: read all this zen literature because I ended up titling

458
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: the book the Zenotherapy, so some Zen then, but I

459
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: but I found this this beautiful book called what called

460
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: Bring Me the Rhinoceros and other zen coo o ons

461
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: that will save your life. But yeah, John terrant I

462
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: got a lot from that book. But he says one

463
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: thing there that's like what you're saying, that if you're

464
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: if you're used to living in a small room, you know,

465
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: and someone someone shows you like a big field, you

466
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: might get afraid and you might prefer to stay in

467
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: the small room. You know, even if the happiness that

468
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: you're seeking lies in the large field, you know that

469
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: that happiness might not look like what we imagine it

470
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: to be. And we're all attached, we all cling to

471
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: the little worlds that we've created for ourselves in our

472
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: own minds about who we are and who you are

473
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: and who our family is, you know, and we're imprisoned

474
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: by that. Really, I know, I always it sounds totally crazy,

475
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: but I watch al Center's Internationals like my favorite, and

476
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the time when you're watching this show,

477
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: it's like these couples that are like, I was working

478
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: in this job in Chicago and I, you know whatever,

479
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: I lost my dad and I just was like, what

480
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: am I doing? I don't want to be an accountant.

481
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: I want to live in Portugal. And so we're doing it.

482
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: We're going to move the whole family to Portugal. And

483
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: you're like, and every time I watched it, I'm like,

484
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: I'm want to move to Portugal. I'm like, I want

485
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: to go. I want to leave everything behind. No so liberating,

486
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, to just be like, you know what, we're leaving,

487
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: we're moving, We're going to try something new that you're

488
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: going to know so many people in Portugal, that's true,

489
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: You're right, I would, you know, the truth is everywhere

490
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: I would go other than like you know, I probably

491
00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: know somebody I know exactly. But this idea of attachments

492
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: as well, you use that word that's a very like

493
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: common therapeutic word, like what is your attachment style and

494
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: how does that come up? And how does your family

495
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: of origin relate to your attachment style? Like Oliver and

496
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: I are both definitely anxious attachments, don't you think? Yeah,

497
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: for sure, so manifested and us actually our attachments because

498
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: much anxious, anxious attachments, where whereas you know sometimes with

499
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: people can have totally different attachment styles like avoidant, even

500
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: in the same family. Do you ever work with attachment styles?

501
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: Is that something that you find? Oh? I think. I

502
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: think I'm always working with attachment styles, mostly mostly anxious ones,

503
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: because that's what I know best. But I think a

504
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: lot a lot of what I've done with the psychology,

505
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: with trying to integrate it with the with the Western stuff,

506
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: is really coming from that place of talking. I don't

507
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: use the attachment to theory language that much. But the

508
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: big influence on my work is this British child psychiatrist

509
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: named Donald Winnicott, and he's the one who popularized the

510
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 1: phrase the good enough mother. And he was like a

511
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: pediatrician who became a child psychiatrist in the forties and

512
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: fifties and into the sixties, and he wrote beautifully and

513
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: endlessly about the anxiety that comes for the child whose

514
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: parents are either too intrusive or too abandoning, and you know,

515
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: for a child who's not physically or but he was

516
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: talking also emotionally held in a good enough manner, so

517
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: that they learn that their own emotional life doesn't have

518
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: to be scary, that being held in that way allows

519
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: you to learn how to hold your own emotions in

520
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: a way that does that doesn't freak you out. But

521
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: I love this concept though. I love it because it's

522
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: good enough, meaning if you're too much like this and

523
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: you're too intrusive, you fuck them up. And if you're

524
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: that's just good enough. You got to let them figure

525
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: shit out. So so I always I always heard that

526
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: as like another way of talking about the middle way,

527
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: Like in Buddhism it's always the middle way, and in

528
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: meditation that you're trying to do something similar with your mind,

529
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: not be too intrusive, you know, and judging it all,

530
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: not be too abandoning and just fall asleep. And and

531
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: so I think what you're really doing, this is my

532
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: main theory, that what you're really doing, both in meditation

533
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: and in therapy is creating a holding environment, you know,

534
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: for oneself, uh, such that you can learn what you

535
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: didn't learn in your anxious attachment time when you were

536
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: growing up. You know, it's like another chance to learn

537
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: how to become partners with the capacities that constitute you.

538
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: You know. It's really interesting because I feel like I

539
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: feel like, if there's one thing, like we have very

540
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: different parenting styles, but I think our emotional holding with

541
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: our kids is very similar. Like we're not over intrusive,

542
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 1: and we're not like we're not over chodily and over

543
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: like I need to be a part of everything and

544
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: talk to me and I'm here for I'm every like

545
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: you know. And we're also not neglectful at all in

546
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: terms of like emotionally. But then there's the physical part

547
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: of it, you know, of you know, always there, not

548
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: always there, Like what's that balance? But I feel like

549
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: I feel like based on you know, at least from

550
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: what I witness, like, I feel like we actually have

551
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: been able to do that part really well. Yeah, well,

552
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: I think we've been mindful of how we were changing

553
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: up and you know, changing against it. Okay, change exactly,

554
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: changing the narrative. I think that's been true for a

555
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: lot of us. Course coruse lights. Look, we always got

556
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: to be on all the time. All right, we're on.

557
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: We're on on with our kids every now and then.

558
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: In life it's important to just stop and reset, okay.

559
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: And that's when I actually open the refrigerator and reached

560
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 1: for my course light when I was drinking my beer.

561
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I thought about. I was thinking about,

562
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: oh wow, this is my rece I'm actually they're right,

563
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: it's a reset. But we just pushed it. Crack this

564
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: baby open, and it was like a really beautiful moment.

565
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: There's nothing like cracking open a really cold, cold, yummy beer.

566
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: It's literally made to chill. I mean the mountains on

567
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: the bottles and cans they turned blue and the beer

568
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: is cold. You know, this is becoming or signature. You

569
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: always know when it is cold. Get course light delivered

570
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: straight to your door with Drizzly or instacart by going

571
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 1: to coreslight dot com, Slash Hudson, Celebrate Responsibly fors Brewing Company,

572
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: Golden Colorado noom Mood. So New Mood is here to

573
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: guide you to mental wellness. So they've created an app

574
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: that gives you the tools that you need to tackle

575
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: stress and so you really feel like you can learn

576
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: some new ways to sort of, you know, empower yourself

577
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 1: and take on the stressors that we all feel day

578
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 1: to day. I love that it's backed by science. These

579
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: are all lessons that are based on psychological principles. They

580
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 1: shoot you about your relationship with stress and anxiety. It's

581
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, and they sort of hold your hand through

582
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: the process. There's daily curriculum and that's coupled with a

583
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: one on one coach that guides you and encourages you.

584
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: I personally think that it's very hard to do those

585
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: things without a little support, without really understanding what the

586
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: things are that not only work for you, but we

587
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: know are scientifically proven to work. So New Mood uses

588
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: their guided approach and it teaches you really the power

589
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: of how amazing it is when you can shift your mindset.

590
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: And it's not something that you need to spend hours

591
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: a day doing this is something that with just a

592
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: couple of minutes a day you can start to transform. Yeah,

593
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been dealing with you know, anxiety for

594
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 1: a minute now. You know, it's been sort of baked

595
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: into me since I was a kid, and you know,

596
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: it can take over. It can be extremely debilitating, and

597
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: it's always amazing when you find the way out, you know,

598
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: or at LEAs is the light at the end of

599
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: the tunnel, and new mood can be that light. So

600
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: worry less and feel happier. Sign up for your trial

601
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: at noom dot com slash sibling. That's n O O

602
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: M dot com slash sibling. Come on now, sign up

603
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: for your trial at noom dot com slash sibling. That's

604
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: NOOM n O O M dot com slash sibling. So

605
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: how does Buddhism I would assume that Buddhism within therapy.

606
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: Once you can get once you can understand sort of

607
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: the philosophies of mindfulness and understand the practices of it,

608
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: it definitely opens up your the practice of psychology, meaning

609
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: you're able to sort of go deeper and figure out

610
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: more things about yourself and be more open to your

611
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: own experience, right, I mean that they sort of go

612
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: hand in hand that way. I think almost. I'm not

613
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: sure about the figuring out more things about yourself. I

614
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: think I'm sort of weak on that end of things.

615
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: But in terms of a vision for what the point

616
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: of it all is, you know, like what's the point?

617
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: What really is the point of therapy? And what do

618
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: people really get out of it? Or why do they

619
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: keep coming back? I had this experience when I was

620
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: first starting out going to visit Ramdas, who had been

621
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: a teacher of mine when I was, you know, twenty,

622
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: and this is when I was like forty or forty five.

623
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: I went to see him and he was living in Tiberan,

624
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: and he'd already had a stroke, and he was sort

625
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: of making fun of me when I came to see him, like, oh,

626
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: are you a Buddhist shrink? Now? Are you a Buddhist

627
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: psychiatrist now? And I sort of sheepishly said I was.

628
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: And he said the profound thing he said, do you

629
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: see them, meaning my patients? Do you see them as

630
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: already free? And I was like, what's he talking about?

631
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: Do I see them as already free? But gradually I

632
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: got what he was saying and and and that that

633
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: is it's one of the things that I that has

634
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 1: really stayed with me. Like that I think might make

635
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: me a little bit different from a lot of other

636
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: more traditional therapists, you know, who don't have the Buddhist background,

637
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: Like I could say yes to that question, you know,

638
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: like I really do see the freedom in the person

639
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: there already, even if they're having a lot of trouble.

640
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: And I and I can pitch what I'm doing, what

641
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: we are doing. I can pitch the I can sense

642
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: the trajectory of what I'm hoping for that they could

643
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: know that too. You know. I listened to Ramdas all

644
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: the time. He's like, my still you do. Yeah, whenever

645
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: I'm feeling really like just whether it be frustrated, annoyed, stress,

646
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: like if there's something that I'm that is making me

647
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: feel like like why am I again holding or clinging,

648
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: I'll put on I'll put on Rahmdos. I'll just listen

649
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: to in my ears because I mean he was just

650
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: so profound. I mean some of the things that he

651
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: they it resonates so deeply with me. Well he was

652
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: like a stand up comic too. Yeah, So relatable and

653
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: and his and his, the concepts of death are the

654
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: things that are I think, because that's the thing that

655
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: I cling to the most, is like, don't die yet,

656
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: don't die yet. You know, I've got too much to do.

657
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: I've got too much to do. I've got to be

658
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: here for my kids. That's the that's the the mantra

659
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm trying to constantly let go of. I'm with you.

660
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: It's the source of most anxiety as the kids. I

661
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: can't die. I have to be here for the kids,

662
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: like I have to. What the hell is that? What

663
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: are they going to do? I don't want to and

664
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm not. It's not the fear of death itself. It's

665
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: the fear of not you know. And and and so

666
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: I think that that finds every time when I say,

667
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: what's bothering me right now? Like what is it? Really?

668
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: The core of it is really that, well, I need

669
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: to figure this out before I die. I need I

670
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: need to make sure that I get to do this

671
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: before or I need to make sure all these ducks

672
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: are in a row because and I don't want to

673
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: think about it like that, you know. And that fear

674
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: is the root of so many different things but you're

675
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: in your experience, like specifically the fear of death. I mean,

676
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: is how big is that in your patience? Oh? I

677
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: think that that's uh, that's under under looking almost everything,

678
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: just like you're saying, yeah, I mean some of my

679
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,479
Speaker 1: patients have actually had their loved ones die. So then

680
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: so then their relationship to death it's not just fear

681
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: of death or it's also like, oh my god, this

682
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: death really exists and I couldn't stop it, you know,

683
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't stop it, And now what am I supposed

684
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: to do? So sometimes to get to the root of

685
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: of of of certain issues, do you ever do you

686
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: have to go that deep and and dig into that,

687
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: And then they sort of have this epiphany or this

688
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: idea that Okay, I'm maybe not so afraid to die anymore,

689
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you know, I don't know,

690
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: I can get a bone or see. But that's where

691
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: ram Dos comes into me, all of her you can

692
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: always Jesus, but that's where for me, like the rohm

693
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: Doas thing comes And when I'm feeling that way and

694
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 1: I listen to ram Dos, it's like a light bulb

695
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: goes off Immediately. I'm like, you know, what this is?

696
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: What this is? The it just is, isn't it? This

697
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: is sad Guru, you know he always he says this thing.

698
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting too, which is like,

699
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, if you're stuck inside of the oh fuck,

700
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: what is I'm going to get it wrong. If you're

701
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: always stuck inside of like the the if you're not

702
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: looking to solve something, then you're only like look ahead

703
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: of it and solve it. Then you're only stuck in

704
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: the in the what did he use? It was about death,

705
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: about the need to be not cutting any of this out?

706
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: The fuck? No, what's the word I'm going to get that? Really,

707
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: what he's saying is instead of feeling like you need

708
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: to be held or like consoled, you know, we need

709
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: to you need to think about the solution. And the

710
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: only solution to death is to live. So basically teaching

711
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: this type of a vibe like don't give them, don't

712
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: give the teach man to fish and he'll be well.

713
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: The idea is that the second you let go of

714
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: this concept or the attachment to what it is to lose,

715
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: you realize that we haven't lost really anything, that that's

716
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: just the natural process of everything, and that we are living,

717
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: So the only solution really in moments like this is

718
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: to live. Does that make sense? No? Am I making sense?

719
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: I'm totally But you're channeling, well, I understand what you're

720
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: What I will say, let's go back to the bull

721
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: channeling something. What I would say about like the fear

722
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: I think. I think like with fear of death, it's

723
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: the fear to focus on that, you know, I think

724
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: death is being used often as an excuse to be

725
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: afraid and that and that people are comfortable in their fear.

726
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: That that's like the small room that we were talking

727
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: about before. And what what if where you're going is

728
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 1: saying death is part of life, So so why do

729
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: we have to fear it? It's a natural thing. But

730
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: so if the if the wide if the if the

731
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: big field, you know, if we don't have to be

732
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: afraid in our in our lives, if we if we

733
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: don't have to set death up as the big thing

734
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: that we attach our fear to, then we could just

735
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: work with fear. And and you know, do we have

736
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: to be bound by fear? Do we have to be

737
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: constrained by fear? And what's the opposite of fear? You know,

738
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: it has something to do with love. I think so

739
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: if we just if we, and that's why you're you

740
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: get afraid of death because it's going to take you

741
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: away from everybody that you love, and are the people

742
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: you love going to be okay? But anyway, yeah, okay,

743
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: Well let's talk about injured innocence because I really want

744
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: to understand this a little bit better. You talk about

745
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: I wrote this down that like, what does Buddhism teach

746
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: you or teach anyone about about injured innocence? And what

747
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: is it? Really? Injured innocence is when someone who you

748
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: love accuses you of doing something that in your heart

749
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: you didn't mean or you didn't do, and so you

750
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: have the feeling inside of how could they think that

751
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: of me? How could they accuse me of that? It's

752
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: like a kind of feeling of righteous, righteous indignation. So

753
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,439
Speaker 1: it's like the innocent part of you is injured. That's

754
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 1: the that's the feeling. So I like this. I like

755
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: the sound of the phrase injured innocence, and so I've

756
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 1: used it in various ways. There's a feeling, going back

757
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: to the attachment kind of conversation, there's a feeling that

758
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people have had as children of feeling

759
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: unattended to or misunderstood or not seen for who they

760
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: really are, but you know, having to fit into the

761
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: mold of who the parents or whomever want them to be.

762
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: And that's a kind of injured innocence. Also, you know,

763
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: went too much intrusion or too much abandonment from the

764
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: from the family leaves you with a feeling of either

765
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: emptiness or worthlessness or or or that kind of you know,

766
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: the fighting aspect of righteous indignation. But in Buddhism, the

767
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: big task of meditation is to try to find the self,

768
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 1: you know, with the self that buddhas said doesn't exist

769
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: in the way we think that it does. So the

770
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: task is to the way we were talking about focusing

771
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: on the clinging. The task of meditation is to feel

772
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: where you are most yourself, which is usually in the clinging,

773
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: and then to learn to see through it, you know,

774
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: let go of it, or see how it's really just

775
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: a construct. So they say that the best time, the

776
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: best way to find the self that doesn't really exist

777
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: the way we think it does, is in the feeling

778
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: of injured innocence, because then you're really feeling like, how

779
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: could they do that to me? How could they think

780
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: that about me? So that feeling of me is very strong.

781
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: And if you make that feeling of me the object

782
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: of meditation, then you have an opportunity to part the

783
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: waters a little bit, you know, not to be so

784
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: stuck in self. Higher Dose I've talked about this before.

785
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: I couldn't be happier to have Higher Dose as a sponsor.

786
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: This is something that I am a big believer in.

787
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 1: We need to sweat. So here's what higher Dose is.

788
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 1: It's a basically a one of a kind at home

789
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: spot experience. Higher Dose is line of INFORED devices. They

790
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: harness the most healing technologies available, from infrared's healing heat

791
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: it to PMFS grounding technology. They've got red light rejuvenating rays.

792
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: Their best selling portable infrared sawn. A blanket is my

793
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: absolute favorite. I do it as often as I can.

794
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: It's well. First of all, it's the easiest thing to

795
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: be able to do. You just turn it on. It

796
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 1: heats up really fast, and then you lay down inside

797
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: thel you turn up the heat and you sweat it out.

798
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: And when you sweat, because it's infrared, you're really sweating

799
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: from the inside out. It's a real detox sweat. They

800
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: also have these mats, these PEMF mats that are awesome.

801
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 1: They've got twenty pounds of healing crystals and I'm like

802
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: amethysts and turmaline that help you relax and it just

803
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: recharges your cell. You lay on the blanket, it's you know,

804
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: and just take take ten, man, take ten and lay

805
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: lay on some crystals. Why not. Then there's the red

806
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 1: light face mask. Stimulates collagen, activates your glowing skin, reduces

807
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: fine lines, regenerate cells. It's cordless and it comes with

808
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: the securest chop so you can kind of multitask. So

809
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: get your own sawn, a blanket, matte, and red light

810
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: mask today. At higher dose dot com. You can use

811
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: promo code sibling at checkout to say fifteen percent off.

812
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: That's higherdose dot Com promo code sibling, or just go

813
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 1: to higher doose dot com slash sibling to say fifteen

814
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: percent off. Cicara. Everyone knows how much we love Cicara.

815
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: Sacara is a wellness company that's anchored in foods as medicine.

816
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: It's on a mission to nourish your body through the

817
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 1: power of plants. It's all plant based ingredients. They're nutritionally designed,

818
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: chef crafted breakfast, lunch and dinners are made with yummy

819
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: plant based ingredients and they're amazing. They they taste incredible,

820
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: the quality of the food is incredible. And now we're

821
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: taking care of ourselves. Now we're eating well and we're

822
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: taking care of ourselves. That's what we want. We're putting

823
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: ourselves in the driver's seat of our own health and

824
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: it's all delivered right to your door. They also have

825
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: this it's the best selling metabolism super powder, which is

826
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: really incredible. But they've got these teas, they've got their

827
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: their newest functional snack, Supersede, and nut Blends. Sakara has

828
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: received rave reviews from Vogue, Goop, The New York Times,

829
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: and more. And I'm going to give it my rave

830
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: review because I absolutely love Sakara. So right now, Sacar

831
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: is offering our listeners twenty percent off their first order

832
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: when they go to Sakara dot com slash sibling or

833
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: enter code sibling at checkout. That's Sakara s a k

834
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: A r a dot com slash sibling to get twenty

835
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: percent off your first order Sikara dot com slash sibling.

836
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: How does one learn to relate differently to the things

837
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:46,959
Speaker 1: that happen to us, like how do we practice It's hard, Yeah,

838
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: but you know, I think that's that's where therapy can

839
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: be good, and that's where meditation can be useful, as

840
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: that's what you're doing all the time in those environments.

841
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,399
Speaker 1: Is your practicing related differently to the stuff I had

842
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 1: a therapist say to me. My therapists say to me

843
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: that part of the fear of actually just letting things

844
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: happen in a circumstance like that is the fear that

845
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: when I do let go, that I won't want to

846
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: be that maybe there will be the realization that the

847
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 1: relationship really isn't right. Yeah, I was going to say

848
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: something similar, but I think there's a big fear like

849
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: when the rupture happens, when you find you're hating the

850
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 1: person that you're with, or they've misunderstood you or accused

851
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: you of something. When the rupture happens, and oftentimes people

852
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: can't stand, they can't stand the way they're feeling, and

853
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 1: one one or the other will like walk out and leave,

854
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: and that's like the worst thing to do when you're fighting,

855
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: and you know, unless you're prone to violence, and it's

856
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 1: a way of stopping yourself from hurting the other person physically.

857
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: But to trust that these ruptures happen, that it's the

858
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,919
Speaker 1: knee chure of an intimate relationship, and that the love

859
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: it's like the already free thing, that the love is

860
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: still there underlying even the fight or the disagreement or

861
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: the misunderstanding, that the love is still there and that

862
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: it will reassert itself. You know, there's a kind of

863
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: trust or faith there that I have a negative, negative question,

864
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: but like, how do you know when? How do you

865
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: know when to quit? You to quit? What the relationship? Yeah,

866
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: it's oh, you know, you definitely know. Yeah, it was

867
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: just done. You're definitely just done. I mean, I mean right,

868
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: so many people are together who probably shouldn't be, you

869
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean should be? They probably should be. Well,

870
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: I was before my wife, I was in a relationship

871
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: for three years with a Buddhist Nietsri and Dihon in Buddhism.

872
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: It was different. Yes, so I was chanced different, I

873
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: do that. Well, I ever sect to Buddhism, I guess,

874
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: but it went to call one Buddhism. Yeah, so you're

875
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 1: for three years and you were yeah, and you you

876
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: were loyal. I wasn't it way too long? Meaning I

877
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: was just scared because I was just a wimp and

878
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god. And then finally she

879
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: calls and she's like, what are we doing? I'm like, yeah,

880
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: what are we doing? Even though I knew it was

881
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: over long before it was, I was just too scared

882
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: to actually say let's not be together anymore. Yeah, but

883
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: that's what he's That's when, you know, that's what we're

884
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: talking about that sometimes. I mean you you probably still

885
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: have to learn how to break up with people. Yeah,

886
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: but that's it. Were you scared of hurting her? I guess,

887
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, and just that that's really what it was.

888
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the guy, so I made

889
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: her break up with me basically, and then we slept

890
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 1: together for like five months after that. I was, oh,

891
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: the best sex we've ever had? You know? But what

892
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 1: is that? By the way, I mean, because that's related,

893
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: that's relatable. It's like you are now separate and all

894
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,959
Speaker 1: of a sudden, sex just gets off the charts. Good.

895
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 1: When isn't that, Well, you weren't worrying about hurting her anymore?

896
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: I guess I I guess I was just free, Yeah,

897
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 1: because that happens expectation. The pressure was off. There's no

898
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: pressure to like, there's no performative pressure except maybe you know,

899
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: a personal thing. I don't have that. Do you do couples?

900
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: I try not to because I always take sides, but

901
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes sometimes people insist and then I do my

902
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: best with them. Do you really take sides? Is that? Or?

903
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: Of course that's so funny. I have a question about anger.

904
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: Is it is anger something if it's harbored in you,

905
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: if it's something that you have, it's like familial. Can

906
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: it be released as an energy or does it always

907
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: stay there? Is there always that ability to feel or

908
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: tap into that kind of intense anger rage from my experience,

909
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: which is all I can all I can go on there.

910
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: I don't think it can go away. I think I

911
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: think we all have that quality, that that depth, that

912
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: intensity of anger that you that you touched on, you know,

913
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: I think, and I think in meditation in particular, or

914
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: in intimate relationships, that's another way, like you you inevitably

915
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: have to face the horror of yourself, you know, like

916
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: you just see everything and it's not all pretty. But

917
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: I but I do think the the the promise of Buddhism,

918
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: and I think it's sort of supported by a psychodynamic therapy,

919
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: is that the those energies, like the anchor might not

920
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: go away, but the energy can be transformed so that

921
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: it becomes like all that intensity that you felt as

922
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: as rage or whatever, it's actually your power. It's your

923
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: it's your power and you and you might need to

924
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: tap it at various times, either in your work or

925
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: in your or with your family or you know, uh yeah,

926
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: so that it becomes it becomes more available because you

927
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: I think you get less frightened of even of the

928
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: of the horror of yourself, you know, uh, more willing

929
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 1: to more willing to admit stuff, more willing to be

930
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: uh kind of open to everything. And therefore it because

931
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: that that that stuff that you had been afraid of

932
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: becomes available for use. That's that's what I hope for. Yeah,

933
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: my instinct when she asked the questions, I love that

934
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: question because I'm with you my insight, I know nothing,

935
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 1: but my instinct was like, no, absolutely not. It doesn't

936
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 1: just go away. Yeah, you can't like release the energy.

937
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: You can write. There's some relationship between aggression and between anger, aggression,

938
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: and compassion that I'm reaching for in my book. I

939
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: had when I first put the book together, I structured

940
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: the four parts of the patients. I structured it around

941
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: the you know, the path of meditation. So the first

942
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: part was clinging, and the second part was mindfulness, and

943
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: the third part was insight, and then the fourth part

944
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: was going to be compassion. But then then the and

945
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: I had them, you know, associated with the four seasons

946
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: that the therapy took place in et cetera. But then

947
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: the editor read through them and she was like, Mark,

948
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: that whole fourth part where you're saying it's about compassion,

949
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: every one of those cases is about anger. And because

950
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,439
Speaker 1: I think it was like, working with anger is what

951
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 1: is what allowed compassion. You know, when when someone gets

952
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: comfortable enough, when they accept their anger, even anger at

953
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: the other person, then that that's what allows them to

954
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: be compassionate ultimately to themselves and to others. But so

955
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: I but she was right. I looked at them all

956
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: and they were all about anger. So I changed the

957
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: order of the book. So now it's clinging, mindfulness, insight,

958
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: and then aggression. And then I made a last chapter

959
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: that's about you know, about kindness basically, or about compassion.

960
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: How many subjects? That interesting? Because I know how many

961
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: subjects are in the book. I tried to pick one

962
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: a week for a year, so I skipped a few weeks.

963
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: But there's there's probably forty or forty five. And some

964
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: people recur. There's a few people who recur, but mostly

965
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: they're all they're all different people. And I had to

966
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: give pseudonyms to them and then show everybody what I wrote,

967
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: and oh my god, make sure it was okay. You know,

968
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: it a whole very interesting process. Did you get anyone

969
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: who was like, fuck, yeah? Only only one person said no,

970
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: And it was a person who came to see me

971
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: only once for a consultation and got there half an

972
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: hour late. Uh, and so I just had a half

973
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: hour with them. But I thought the session was really

974
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: good and I wrote it down. But they they said,

975
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: you know, I don't really know you, and I would

976
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: rather not be in your book. But everybody else, everybody

977
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: else said yes, and and no one really tinkered with

978
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: the material. And the only the only back and forth

979
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: I had with people was it was about the pseudonyms

980
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: that I chose. I don't want to do that's really

981
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: what it was like. But but a couple of times,

982
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: once I chose somebody without knowing, I picked their middle

983
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: name that they hated to be their name, so I

984
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: had to change that. Couple of other things. Where are you?

985
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: Where do you stand on sort of happenstance circum you know,

986
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:03,439
Speaker 1: and just the mystical and connection and fame and all that.

987
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, you believe that we energetically are

988
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: connected and there is no such thing as a coincidence.

989
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: I think there is such a thing as a coincidence,

990
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: and that a lot of stuff is random. Uh, But

991
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: I also think that certain when certain things line up

992
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 1: and it doesn't feel like an accident, you know, So

993
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: I think there's some other there's something else operating that

994
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:39,439
Speaker 1: that we don't understand, but that that affects us. I'm

995
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 1: with you on that. And it's interesting because we talked

996
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: to a lot of different doctors and everyone has a

997
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: very different feeling about that. And that's a question I

998
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 1: always I mean, I always love asking people that have

999
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: studied Western medicine, and I find that, you know, I

1000
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 1: I was at this event and I spoke to a

1001
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: one of the top neuroscientists. He's at UCLA, and I

1002
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 1: asked him, I said, you know, do you believe that

1003
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: there's something else or do you believe that when we

1004
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 1: die it's over? Do you like, is this it? You know?

1005
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: And he said, if you would have asked me ten

1006
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: years ago, I would have said absolutely not. There's no

1007
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: way we die. We die. He's like, but in his

1008
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: last ten five to ten years, my view on that

1009
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: has completely changed. He says, that's great, yeah, which I

1010
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: thought was really interesting, just the research how much we

1011
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: don't know? I did. I did a conversation a couple

1012
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: of years ago at the Ruben Museum with a psychic

1013
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: medium named Laureln Jackson, who channels you know, people from

1014
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: the other side, fun who who who I love. She

1015
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: has helped helped me and helped other patients that I've

1016
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: worked with enormously. So I did a public conversation with

1017
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: her where I asked her questions about how it's to

1018
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: happen for her and what, you know, what her take

1019
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: on reality was. And I got a lot of feedback, Oh,

1020
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 1: how brave, you know, like a Western train, like you're

1021
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: willing to talk about this kind of thing. But it

1022
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 1: was it was one of the was one of my

1023
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: favorite conversations I ever had. You know, I kind of

1024
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: look at people who can connect just maybe maybe maybe

1025
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: because I feel that way, but that can connect to

1026
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: something that's outside of this. And then you think about

1027
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: the science of it, and you're like, if we're on

1028
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: three dimensions and there's multiple multiple dimensions, how how insanely

1029
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: self cenatedor are we to think that we are all

1030
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 1: that exists? Right in terms of the synchronicity. One of

1031
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: the sessions that I talk about in the book, a

1032
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 1: patient was was with me and was telling me a dream,

1033
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: and some somehow I had the inclination to I asked

1034
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: him if he had ever thrown the eaching and and

1035
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 1: he didn't know what it was. So I took it

1036
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: off my shelf and I showed him how to do it,

1037
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: and we threw the eaching to help interpret his dream

1038
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: and the and they read the each The reading from

1039
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 1: the eaching was so perfectly attuned. It was so right

1040
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 1: on to what the dream was about that, you know,

1041
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: it was just completely startling. So was that random? You know, like, yeah,

1042
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 1: it's fun, it's fun to play with that. Yeah, what

1043
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: is that connectivity? And like what is energy? And how

1044
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 1: does it really connect and I mean, I don't know,

1045
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: I could talk about this forever. I think the one

1046
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: thing that you know, we talk a lot about kindness.

1047
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 1: What what what? What is your recommendation for people who

1048
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 1: want to bring more mindfulness and kindness into their life. Well,

1049
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: the first thing is, I don't think meditation is for everyone.

1050
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: I don't think it's right for everyone. I don't you know,

1051
01:06:55,760 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 1: So to feel that you have to practice mindfulness or

1052
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: have to practice meditation, and that you're somehow deficient if

1053
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,400
Speaker 1: you're not doing it, I think that's totally wrong. So

1054
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: for people who are drawn to it, who like it, great,

1055
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 1: But there are there are many ways of introducing that

1056
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: kind of sensibility into one's life, So such as opening

1057
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 1: the door and going outside and standing and listening to

1058
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: the sounds of the city or the sounds of nature,

1059
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: or taking a walk with no agenda for the walk,

1060
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: just to to change the physical and mental and emotional

1061
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: boundaries that that you're usually subjecting yourself to. So just

1062
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: simply by changing the channel you know on your mind,

1063
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 1: you're introducing a meditative sensibility. That's really all you're doing

1064
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 1: when you sit down to meditate, is your you're taking

1065
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: yourself away from your phone, you're taking yourself away from

1066
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: your family, and in a certain way, you're taking yourself

1067
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 1: away from the preoccupations of your mind. So, uh, even

1068
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: something as simple as watching television, which I know everyone is, like,

1069
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:19,440
Speaker 1: you know, criticizes that people for wasting their time watching television.

1070
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 1: But I think that that that culture, you know, music

1071
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: and film and sports and you know, all this, all

1072
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 1: the stuff that generally has talked about as distractions, I

1073
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 1: think that those are in certain ways functioning like meditations

1074
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 1: because they pull us away from our usual preoccupation. So

1075
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 1: there's something liberating, something opening and freeing in that. So

1076
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: so I think that that's that's one whole way of

1077
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 1: answering the question, you know, where I exist. I haven't

1078
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: been diving in in a minute, but I used to dive. Diving. Diving,

1079
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I mean, it doesn't get more meditative,

1080
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 1: because first of all, I'm hearing your breath and you

1081
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 1: were so you were so right in that moment. You know,

1082
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:11,639
Speaker 1: it is so meditative, it's so alive. But I think

1083
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: or sailing, I mean, why do people you know, gravitate

1084
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: to that, to the to their boats if they can

1085
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,639
Speaker 1: afford them playing, but playing golf, playing tennis, going swimming,

1086
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: all that stuff that's functioning. I love. I love sailing.

1087
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 1: That's like one of my favorite things. SA Diving, on

1088
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: the other hand, makes brings up every fear I have.

1089
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 1: And then when I had to do it for a movie,

1090
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 1: I remember getting to the seafloor and like sitting down,

1091
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: I was staring at this wall of fish and it

1092
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:46,480
Speaker 1: was so beautiful, and I, you know, I just sobbed.

1093
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:52,680
Speaker 1: I just sat there. I just literally sobbed, and I

1094
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 1: had the best dive ever. I ended up diving around.

1095
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 1: I was with a bunch of people and I was like,

1096
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: oh my god. But that was like, you know, get

1097
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 1: me in like murky Catalina water and forget it. I'm

1098
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:06,719
Speaker 1: like a cartoon trying to jump out of the water.

1099
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm gonna leave you with one last question,

1100
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 1: but don't overthink this. Okay. Well, I also want to

1101
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: be all right, you ready, go ahead? Why So you

1102
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:35,839
Speaker 1: want to hear how I ended my book. Yeah, okay,

1103
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,759
Speaker 1: it's sort of along the same lines. So I thought,

1104
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: maybe this is a little cheesy. I don't know, but

1105
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 1: I'm the on the last page, on the last page

1106
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 1: of the book, after all the text is done. I

1107
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: have one one little haiku because I use these zen

1108
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 1: poems throughout the book. So the last one says, only

1109
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 1: one colan matters. A colon is like the riddle that

1110
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 1: the zen. You know, people using meditation to sort of

1111
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 1: confuse your rational mind, you know, and so only one

1112
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:17,639
Speaker 1: co on matters you. Mm hmm, that's the why. That's perfect.

1113
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: This was the best. That's perfect. Wow. Well we want

1114
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:28,560
Speaker 1: you on, you know, every season. Just write a book.

1115
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: I'll come whatever. Yeah, just write books. But I don't

1116
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:35,799
Speaker 1: know about writing more books. We love we love talking

1117
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 1: to you, and you're just so insightful and wonderful and

1118
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: kind and you made you made my day better. You

1119
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: make me. Thanks. Yeah, this was great. I had the

1120
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 1: best time last time, and I have the best time this.

1121
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,600
Speaker 1: So I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful to both of you.

1122
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: And it's you know, completely enjoyable. Oh. Thanks, We're grateful

1123
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: for you. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson

1124
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 1: and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Alison. President, editor is Josh Wendish.

1125
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: Music by Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mark. If you want

1126
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 1: to show us some love rate the show and leave

1127
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 1: us a review. This show is powered by simple cast