1 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold 2 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite 3 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially 4 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights 5 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be 6 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts 7 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has 8 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 9 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply 10 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime 11 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening. 12 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: It was around seven pm on August thirteenth, nineteen eighty one, 13 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: and thirty six year old Carol Morgan was working the 14 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 2: till at her corner shop at sixteen Finch Crescent in 15 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: a town called Leyton Buzzard in the County of Bedfordshire, England. 16 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 3: This was a close knit community. 17 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: Carol owned and ran the shop with her husband, thirty 18 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: one year old Alan Morgan, and everybody knew them. Everyone 19 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: in town knew and loved Carol, who was described by 20 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: friends and family as warm, caring, genuine and friendly. Carol 21 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: loved the shop and the other lights of her life 22 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: were her two children from a previous marriage, fourteen year 23 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: old Dean and twelve year old Jane. On that night, 24 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: Carol was working at the shop alone. She was getting 25 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: ready for closing, which was at six pm. Her husband, Allan, 26 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: was at the movie theater in Lwton with his two 27 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: step children, Dean and Jane, but at some point someone 28 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: surprised Carol. Alan and the children got home at around 29 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: ten ten pm. Shortly after arriving at the house, Carroll's husband, 30 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: Alan raced to a neighbor's house and asked him to 31 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: come to the shop. The neighbor followed Alan into the 32 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: storeroom and saw Carol in a pool of blood. Her 33 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: body was found in the storeroom of the store. Forensic 34 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: testing revealed that Carol had been brutally beaten and stabbed 35 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: with a weapon, something like an axe or a machete, 36 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: something heavy but very sharp. She had been hit so 37 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: hard that pieces of her skull and brain matter were 38 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: on the floor. The police had no way of knowing 39 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: it back in nineteen eighty one, but this police investigation 40 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: would last forty three years and take a lot of 41 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: strange twists and turns, and in the end there was justice, 42 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: but it's questionable whether full justice will ever be served. 43 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: Who came into the store that night and hacked Carol 44 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 2: Morgan to death. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past seven 45 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: years of making my true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I've 46 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: learned that there is no such thing as a small 47 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 2: town where murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages 48 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: from people all around the country asking for help with 49 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. 50 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my 51 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us 52 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight 53 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: seven four four six one four five. That's six seven 54 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: eight seven four four six one four five, or you 55 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: can send us a message on Instagram at Helen gonepod. 56 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: This is Helen Gone Murder Line. After police got to 57 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: the scene, they found evidence that some money four hundred 58 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: and thirty five pounds to be exact, had been stolen, 59 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: along with fourteen hundred cigarettes, but police did not have 60 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: a ton of information to go on. The attack had 61 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: been extremely brutal and horrific and there were some signs 62 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: of defensive wounds on Carol's hands, so it seemed like 63 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: whatever happened had taken her completely by surprise and that 64 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: she had fought for her life. The UK channel ITV 65 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: made a documentary about the case called The Real Unforgotten. 66 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 2: This documentary followed the decades long investigation into Carroll's murder. 67 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 2: I highly recommend checking it out because it really is 68 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: an excellent analysis of what the police did and the 69 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: excellent detective work that was done years later. In the documentary, 70 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: they explained that the police back in nineteen eighty one 71 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: believed that the motive for the killing had been robbery, 72 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: and they focused on that theory pretty much exclusively. On 73 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: the ITV program, they showed images of diagrams of Carol's injuries. 74 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: She had been beaten to death and she had huge 75 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 2: cuts on her head. Whoever beat her beat her so 76 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: badly that her skull was cracked. So police theorized the 77 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: weapon had been something like an axe or a machete, 78 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: but they never found the murder weapon. They did have 79 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: one early lead. There was a man driving a green 80 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: car who had been spotted at a payphone box near 81 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: the shop shortly after seven pm. On the ITV documentary, 82 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: they stated when police started canvassing the area, they found 83 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: witnesses who saw this man at the phone box. One 84 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: of the witnesses worked with a police sketch artist. They 85 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: made a poster and they put them out everywhere. In 86 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: the documentary, they showed old footage of Brian Picket, the 87 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: senior investigating officer from nineteen eighty one. He was talking 88 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: about this stranger. He said the man was seen driving 89 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: away from the corner shop and was described as being 90 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 2: aged between seventeen and twenty one years old, around five 91 00:06:57,280 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 2: foot seven to five foot eight inches tall, with a 92 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: slim belld brown mousey hair and piggish style nostrils. Brian 93 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: Pickett stated that the witness saw this man holding white 94 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: plastic bags to his chest, bags that police believed at 95 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: the time were used to carry the stolen money and 96 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: cigarettes from the corner shop. So police believed the killer 97 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: had come in to rob the store and that Carol 98 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: was basically just at the wrong place at the wrong time. 99 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: Police focused their investigation almost solely on that stranger at 100 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: the phone box and the green car he was driving, 101 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: but they never found the man and they never found 102 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: the car. After that, the investigation seemed to hit a 103 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: dead end. 104 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: This case terrified the. 105 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: Local community because the thought that someone could go in 106 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: and murder someone with an axe over such a small 107 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: amount of money and a few cigarettes was truly scary. 108 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 3: But there were also some local rumors spreading. 109 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: Witnesses spoke to police to voice their suspicions about someone 110 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: much closer to home, Carol's husband, Alan Morgan. So what 111 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: was going on in Carol and Allen's marriage and why 112 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: would he have any reason to hurt her? Carol Morgan 113 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: was born on December twenty sixth, nineteen forty four. She 114 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: grew up in Highbury, North London. Carol was married before Alan. 115 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: She met her husband when he was sixteen, she was 116 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: a year older. Her husband later testified that they met 117 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: while he was on vacation with a friend. Carol and Richard, 118 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: her first husband, were both from London. He was from 119 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: Wimbledon in West London. She was from North London, so 120 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 2: the relationship continued after that holiday ended. They got married 121 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty five and they settled down together in Swindon. 122 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: They had two children, Jane and Ian, but like a 123 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: lot of couples, they drifted apart and started having problems 124 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: in their relationship. Richard later testified in court that he 125 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: met someone else and that that was kind of the 126 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: final straw for their marriage. He testified he left Carol 127 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: to be with this other person, but after the split, 128 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: he said he and Carol remained close. He said, quote, 129 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: Carol was upset I was leaving, but there was no 130 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: animosity end quote. In nineteen seventy eight, Carol was trying 131 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: to meet new people. She went to a singles group 132 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: called the Gingerbread Group, and that's where she met Allan. 133 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: Allan was also divorced and had two children from a 134 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: previous marriage, but those children lived with his ex partner. 135 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: Shortly after meeting and falling in love, Carol and Allan 136 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: made plans to buy and run this corner shop together. 137 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: Carol financed the shop. They were able to buy it 138 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: because Carol had sold her house in her divorce, so 139 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 2: they used the share of the house money to invest 140 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: in the shop. Carol and Allan got me married in 141 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. It's interesting because you never know what's 142 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: going on behind closed doors in these relationships. But years later, 143 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: some members of Carroll's family, including her sister and her niece, 144 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: talked to the ITV program about how these horrific events 145 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: had changed their family forever. They said that after Carol 146 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 2: met Allan, she went from being this outgoing and loving 147 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: person to being pretty much completely isolated. Her niece told 148 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: ITV she believed that Alan was trying to control Carol 149 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: and manipulate her, but at the time they had no 150 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: idea how bad things were getting at home behind closed doors. 151 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: Local gossips said there might have been another reason why 152 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: Alan wanted Carol out of the way, because Alan was 153 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: having an affair with a woman named Margaret Spooner, who 154 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: was also married, But when it came to Carroll's murder, 155 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 2: Alan had this apparently airtight albi. The night of the murder, 156 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: he was at the movies with his two step children. 157 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 2: Carol's sun Dean told police that on the day of 158 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: the murder that Alan came home shortly after lunch and 159 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: told them they were going to the movies that night, 160 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 2: so he, Jane, and Allan ended up driving to the 161 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 2: town of Lowton to see a double feature. Jane told 162 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: police that they got to the theater got their tickets 163 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: at six twenty five pm and that they saw Sinbad, 164 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: the Eye of the Tiger and Super Snooper and came 165 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: out at ten ten pm. Police were trying to figure 166 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: out what happened while Carol was working alone that night. 167 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 3: They knew that the shop closed at six. 168 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: Pm, but apparently some potential customers, according to the ITV show, 169 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: tried the doors at five point fifty five pm and 170 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: couldn't open them, so it seems as though Carol might 171 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: have shut the shop a little bit early. The detectives 172 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: went back and re examined everything they thought they knew 173 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: about this case. First of all, they needed to look 174 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: into the man with the white bags, the one who 175 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: was seen near the phone box. 176 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 3: They went back through. 177 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: Old witness days and found that a witness saw the 178 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: man drop the bags, pick up some coins, get into 179 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: the car and drive away. Then there were two more 180 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: witnesses at around seven ten pm, two women who were 181 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: walking to Bingo saw that man in the green car. 182 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: Presumably that would mean that if that man was the killer, 183 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: the man murdered Carol and what they saw was him 184 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: driving away. 185 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 3: From the scene. 186 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 2: But there were some other witnesses who had conflicting information. 187 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: There were witnesses who said they saw Carol. Later after closing, 188 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: two kids who knew Carol well were sitting on a 189 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: wall talking They saw Carol walking back toward the shop 190 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: with her dog. 191 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: They said this happened between eight thirty and nine pm. 192 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: So the officer interviewed in the ITV documentary pointed out 193 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: if Carol was alive between eight thirty and nine pm, 194 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: that appeared to point to the man in the green 195 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: car not being the killer. In twenty eighteen, Detective Superintendent 196 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: Carl Foster was put in charge of the cold case. 197 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: Based on what he saw in that case file, he 198 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: decided to reopen the investigation. 199 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: He was convinced that. 200 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: Even if Allen had an alibi and had been elsewhere, 201 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: the evidence suggested that he may have been behind the killing. 202 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: The Major Crime Unit reopened the investigation into Carol's murder 203 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, but they had a lot of problems. 204 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: For one thing, as we see in so many of 205 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: our cases, mistakes were made, a lot of evidence was 206 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: destroyed and there was no way to get it back. 207 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: Police had very little to go on except for witness 208 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: statements and some very old photos of the crime scene. 209 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I wanted to cover this 210 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: case in particular is because I was so inspired by 211 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 2: the work that these cold case detectives did. 212 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: How they took a case like. 213 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: So many of the ones that we see every day, 214 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: where evidence was destroyed, and yet they managed to turn 215 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: things around. I wanted to see what we could all 216 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: learn from this case. The detectives taking over in twenty 217 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: nineteen did not believe that robbery was the motive. One 218 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: of the reasons they said they believed that was because 219 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: of the brutal way that Carroll was killed. Police referred 220 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 2: to that beating as overkill. They believe this was personal, 221 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: not random. There were some other oddities. Most of the 222 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: money that had been stolen was stolen from a desk 223 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 2: drawer in the shop. This drawer had what Alan described 224 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: to police as a secret mechanism. 225 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 3: It was like a trick drawer. 226 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: You had to move another drawer into position to get 227 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: it to work. Alan told the police it was like 228 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 2: a Chinese puzzle. He said, only he and maybe Carol 229 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: knew how that drawer worked. So how would a robber 230 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: have known how to open that drawer or to force 231 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: Carol to open it? How would the robber have even 232 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: known where the drawer was at all. Much later in court, 233 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: a prosecutor would state that the killer had inside information 234 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: before the killer came into the shop. And one of 235 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: the detectives in the ITV documentary noticed something else from 236 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: the photos, a flash of gold. Carol was wearing her 237 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: wedding ring, So the detective wondered, if robbery was really 238 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: the only motive, why was her wedding ring not pulled 239 00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: off and stolen. 240 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: Police began to lean more. 241 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: And more into the theory this had not been a robbery, 242 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: this had been a staged robbery, and that the real 243 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: primary motive here was to kill Carol. The police had 244 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: a massive number of witness statements to go through, thousands 245 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: of pages, but as one of the investigators pointed out, 246 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: they had to go back to the beginning and reread everything. 247 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: One of the first people they talked to was Allan's neighbor. 248 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: He was the first person who Allan told about finding 249 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: Carroll's body, the one who first saw Carroll's body along 250 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: with Alan. The neighbor told police that Alan ran across 251 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: the street to his place and asked him to use 252 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: the phone. He said Alan seemed to be in shock 253 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: that he heard Allan tell police his address and explained 254 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: that his wife was in a pool of blood. The 255 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: neighbor went with Alan back to the shop and down 256 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: to the stock room and found Carroll there. He said 257 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: blood was spattered everywhere and it was immediately obvious that 258 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: she was dead. The neighbor said he ran out of 259 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: there and that Alan followed him. He said Alan was crying, 260 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: but that as the neighbor tried to comfort him, the 261 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: neighbor told police he noticed Alan seemed very composed. 262 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: Now, the detectives in the ITV. 263 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: Series point out this could have been a natural reaction. 264 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: People process things in different ways, but the detective did 265 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: ask why did Alan walk across the street to use 266 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: someone else's phone instead of just calling from the store. 267 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: This officer stated it made him believe Alan had a 268 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 2: reason for doing that, something that indicated maybe he didn't 269 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: want to be the one to discover that body alone. 270 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: Another piece of evidence that detectives had was the post 271 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 2: mortem report that was made in nineteen eighty one. So 272 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: they took that report and went to outside experts, including 273 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: a forensic pathologist. The pathologist said Carol was killed by 274 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: multiple blunt forest blows by a very heavy object that 275 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: was also sharp, heavy enough to shatter the skull, but 276 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: also sharp enough to slice. The pathologist agreed with the 277 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: investigator's theory that the wounds were indicative of overkill, that 278 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: the intention was to kill Carol. This was a hit 279 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 2: and Carol was the target. The pathologist also said something else. 280 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 2: There were stab wounds on Carol's midsection that made them 281 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: believe one of two things happened. Either there was more 282 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: than one killer, or maybe the killer changed weapons midway 283 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: through the attack. The pathologist also stated that Carol had 284 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: wounds on her face, wounds that the pathologists said happened 285 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: after the initial attack, either around the time of death 286 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: or after the time of death. They described these as 287 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: disrespect to the individual and mutilation injuries. So police used 288 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: that information to move more and more away from the 289 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: original theory. This was personal, it was all about Carol, 290 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: and the crime scene was staged. But who would have 291 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 2: wanted to hurt Carol because everyone in the community seemed 292 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 2: to love Carol. When police went back through the witness statements, 293 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: they found that a lot of people were talking about Alan, 294 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: and specifically Alan's behavior before. 295 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 3: And after the murder. 296 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 2: A few weeks after Carroll's death, Alan sold the shot. 297 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: He took his step kids and moved away from the area, 298 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: but he also made several comments to reporters. He told 299 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: them he was being accused of killing Carroll, that people 300 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: believed he had killed his wife, but he said it 301 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: couldn't have been him because he was in Luton at 302 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: the movies. When the reporter asked Alan why he thought 303 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 2: people believed that, Alan said, in his opinion, it could 304 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: be because he was, in his words, happy go lucky 305 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: and a womanizer. And when Alan left town, he didn't 306 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: just take his stepchildren. Margaret, his lover, also went with him. 307 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: Police knew about Margaret and the affair back in nineteen 308 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 2: eighty one, a few months after Carol's murder, Margaret's husband, 309 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: Neil Spooner, called police. He said that his wife had 310 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: confessed to him that she had been having an affair, 311 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: and she said she had been having an affair with 312 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: Alan Morgan. Police confirmed this with other witnesses, including a 313 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: friend of Margaret's named Sheila Forest. Sheila told police she 314 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: was on a barge trip with Margaret. She said Margaret 315 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: kept sneaking away to meet Alan. Sheila said Margaret and 316 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 2: Alan were seeing each other every day at the time 317 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: of the murder. 318 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: She said. 319 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: Right after the murder, she saw Alan and Margaret together. 320 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: She said they were holding hands and Alan made the 321 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 2: comment it won't be long now, Darling, which Sheila said 322 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: made her feel sick. Police said in the ITV documentary 323 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: that they had evidence that Margaret and Alan were in 324 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: bed together the morning after the murder, and then just 325 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: a few weeks later, Margaret had left her husband she 326 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: moved in with Alan and his children. Now, obviously this 327 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: is all circumstantial, but it had police in nineteen eighty 328 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: one and in twenty nineteen wondering how much. 329 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: Did Margaret Spooner know and when did she know it. 330 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, police went back to interview people in 331 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: the community, and even though it had been over forty years, 332 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: a lot of people who lived in this area had 333 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: heard about this case. The murder had been so brutal 334 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 2: people still talked about it. Forty years later. Carl Foster, 335 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: the senior investigating officer, did something else that was interesting. 336 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 2: He went back and looked at all of the media 337 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: reports from that time and kind of used Allan's own 338 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 2: words against him. Police looked back at these interviews that 339 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: Alan gave to media, and they saw how he contradicted himself. 340 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: For example, when he went to Malta with Margaret and 341 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: was asked about going away with his lovers so soon 342 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: after his wife's death, he made comments saying my marriage 343 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: was as good as over and that he couldn't go 344 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: on mourning forever. A news channel asked Alan in nineteen 345 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 2: eighty two how the murder had affected him, and he 346 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: gave this very cold answer. He talked about how he 347 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 2: had to shut down the shop for weeks so the 348 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: police could do their investigation. He talked about how this 349 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: had ruined his business, how he had to sell the 350 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: shop at a loss. But he said nothing in that 351 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: interview that I saw about any grief for Carol or 352 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: the two children who she left behind. 353 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 3: In fact, he said. 354 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 2: The kids are all right, but he said it would 355 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 2: be better for the kids if he moved away. So 356 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: Alan seemed to be blaming the police investigation for ruining 357 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 2: the shop's business, But investigators found evidence that Alan and 358 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: Carol's show was having problems before she was brutally murdered. 359 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: Police in nineteen eighty one interviewed two accountants, who said 360 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: the shop had been losing a lot of money and 361 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: that actually, at the time of the murder, Allan and 362 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: Carol were trying to sell the shop. The accountant said 363 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: when he talked to Carol about the losses, Carrol started 364 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 2: crying and said that they were unhappy that they had 365 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 2: had big dreams for that shop. Police found another contradiction 366 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: because while Allan had given an interview to the Observer 367 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: newspaper stating that quote my wife wasn't insured, I had 368 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 2: nothing to gain end quote, police said that wasn't true 369 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: because Alan had taken out a loan before the murder 370 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: to help pay the shop's debt, and after Carroll's death 371 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: that loan was paid off completely. Alan and Margaret disappeared. 372 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: They moved away from the area and from the corner shop, 373 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: and eventually Alan and Margaret got married. They actually ended 374 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: up buying their own corner shop together in nineteen eighty two. 375 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 2: Looking at the case again in twenty nineteen, police had 376 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: a new theory. They had a lot of circumstantial evidence, 377 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 2: but they still had zero physical evidence. 378 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 3: But they didn't give up. They kept talking to outside experts. 379 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: They made a bunch of new posters and handed them 380 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 2: out all over town. And I found this part really 381 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: interesting because the posters said did you know Carrol? Which 382 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: I think is a great way of bringing people out. Eventually, 383 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: police said they were ready to bring Margaret and Allen 384 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: in for questioning. They found them together, still married, now 385 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: in their seventies. They were living in Brighton, and police 386 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: took them in for interviews. Both of them completely denied 387 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: any knowledge of or involvement in Carroll's murder. Margaret said 388 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 2: she had been horrified when she heard about Carroll's death. 389 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: She said after the murder, she didn't see Allen for 390 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: several days. She said she out of town that week, 391 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: but police knew that wasn't true because they had witnesses 392 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: saying otherwise. Police went back and they kept knocking on doors. 393 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: Eventually they figured out what they believed was the murder weapon. 394 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 2: They had talked to several witnesses who said there was 395 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: a machete in Alan's shop, and a machete in a 396 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: corner shop is the kind of thing that you tend 397 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: to notice. But Alan told police there wasn't a machete 398 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: in there. He said he couldn't remember the type of weapon. 399 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: That was in there. 400 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: So again police don't have anything concrete, but they do 401 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: have this contradictory information between what Alan's telling them and 402 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: what witnesses at the time were telling them. They also 403 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 2: questioned Alan about some dodgy financial stuff in his background, 404 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: including convictions for insurance fraud, but when police asked Alan 405 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 2: about that, he denied any knowledge of those convictions. Police 406 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: also spoke to witnesses who said that Alan had a 407 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 2: violent temper. A friend of Carol's name Sheila, told police 408 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: that at one point Carol told her she was pregnant 409 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 2: with twins and that Alan punched her in the stomach 410 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: and that later she lost her babies. 411 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 3: The friends said Alan would. 412 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: Regularly physically abuse Carol, which again Alan completely denied. Police 413 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: talked to Alan's daughter from his first marriage. She said 414 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: her dad would sometimes tie her to a chair when 415 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: she did something wrong. She said sometimes he would hit 416 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 2: her with a belt. She said she was terrified of 417 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: her father. Still, police did not have enough to charge 418 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 2: Alan and Margaret, so Alan and Margaret were released from 419 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: police custody. This investigation dragged on for a long time, 420 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: six years total, and finally the public appeals the police 421 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: were making seemed to pay off because in twenty twenty, 422 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: new witnesses came forward, people who had never talked to 423 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: law enforcement in the past. One was a guy named 424 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: Michael Marrin. Michael was eighteen years old at the time 425 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: of Carroll's murder. He said he knew Alan from the shop. 426 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: He also knew Alan's car. On August thirteenth, the night 427 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: of Carroll's murder, he said he was driving home from 428 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: the train station with his mom when he saw Alan 429 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 2: in his car driving in the opposite direction. He said 430 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: Alan passed him on the road and that this was 431 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 2: at around six forty five pm. Police said they couldn't 432 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: find Michael Marin's witness statements, but ITV interviewed him, and 433 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: over forty years later, he said he was still absolutely 434 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: certain that he saw Alan Morgan on the night of 435 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: Carroll's murder. 436 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 3: This would have been after Alan claimed he was at 437 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 3: the movies. 438 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: Because remember Alan's daughter said they bought the tickets at 439 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: six twenty five pm. But police's biggest break was in 440 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 2: March of twenty twenty one. That's when Jane Foster, a 441 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: woman who was a teenager at the time of Carroll's murder, 442 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: contacted police. The investigating officer told ITV News Anglia. 443 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: Quote. 444 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 2: When we went to visit her, we knocked on the 445 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: door and she said, I've been waiting for you to 446 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: visit me for forty. 447 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 3: Years end quote. Jane said she was very friendly with 448 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: Margaret Spooner. 449 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: Back in nineteen eighty one because she was a troubled 450 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 2: teen Back then, at age fourteen, Jane said she got 451 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: expelled from school. 452 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 3: Margaret was one of her tutors. 453 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: She said that Margaret took an interest in her and 454 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 2: that Margaret had saved her life. They confided in each 455 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: other and got very close. Three years later, when she 456 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: was seventeen, One night, Margaret invited her to a local 457 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: pub called the Dolphin. Jane said Margaret picked her up 458 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: and drove her to the pub. Jane said that when 459 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: they got there, Alan was there, and Jane said Alan 460 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: made statements about hating Carroll and that Alan said, well, 461 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: I'd quite like Carol dead. Jane said she sat there 462 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: in shock while Alan and Margaret openly. 463 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 3: Discussed how to get rid of Carrol. 464 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: How they talked about doing it with insulin, but ruled 465 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 2: it out because they didn't really have medical training. Then, 466 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: Jane said they talked about rigging Carol's car, but then 467 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: they said no, they couldn't do that because neither of 468 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 2: them knew anything about car mechanics. And they talked about 469 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 2: how something could go wrong, What if someone else took 470 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 2: the car, what if one of the kids was in 471 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 2: the car. Jane said she freaked out with all this 472 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 2: talk and ran out of the pub. She said Margaret 473 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 2: ran after her and told her Alan was just kidding, 474 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: but Jane said while she was there, Alan also made 475 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: some comments about hiring someone else to kill Carol. Much later, 476 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: Jane would tell police she wondered if they were trying 477 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 2: to introduce the idea that perhaps Jane would be involved 478 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: with the killing. Police asked Jane why it took so 479 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 2: long for her to come forward. She said she was 480 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: seventeen years old at the time. She adored and idolized Margaret, 481 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: and she said that later Margaret told her not to 482 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: talk to anyone about that pub conversation, and she said 483 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: Margaret tried to reassure her Alan didn't do it. Jane 484 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: said she always believed Alan was capable of murder, but 485 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: she said now years later, she was considering another horrific possibility. 486 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: What if Margaret not only knew about it, but was 487 00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: somehow involved. 488 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 3: Could Margaret have been the person who killed Carol? 489 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: When police interviewed Alan and Margaret, Allan denied, ever, saying 490 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: that he wished Carol was dead. Margaret years later said 491 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: she had no memory of ever having a conversation like 492 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: the one Jane was talking about now. Of course, Margaret 493 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: has never been charged with Carroll's murder and has always 494 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 2: completely denied any knowledge of it or participation in it. 495 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: So again, police had no concrete evidence Alan had been 496 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: at the crime scene, but they believed he had orchestrated 497 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: Carroll's murder. They believed there might be a hit man involved, 498 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: that Alan may have paid someone to have Carol killed. 499 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: But once again they didn't have enough evidence to go 500 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: forward with a case. So again Alan and Margaret were released. 501 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: Police went back through the investigation material again, They went 502 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 2: through thousands of documents. 503 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: Again. 504 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 2: This time, they changed their strategies slightly. They realized they 505 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 2: might not have enough to charge Alan with murder. That 506 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: they felt they did have enough to charge him and 507 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: Margaret with conspiracy to murder. For that, the ITV documentary explained, 508 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: they only needed to prove that Alan and Margaret paid 509 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: someone to kill Carroll. They didn't need to figure out 510 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: who the actual hip man or hit woman was. During 511 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: this time, police were recording conversations between Alan and Margaret. 512 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: In the documentary, police pointed out Alan and Margaret didn't 513 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: confess to anything, it was more what they didn't say 514 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: that made them believe they were. 515 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: Still hiding things. 516 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: For example, when they were talking about being arrested, Alan said, quote, 517 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: I don't want to say anything because they might have 518 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: end quote, and then he trailed off and got quiet. 519 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: And it was also picked up on tape that Margaret 520 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: told him multiple times to keep his mouth shut. Finally, 521 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: Alan and Margaret were arrested and charged with conspiracy to 522 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: murder Carol. Alan and Margaret both pleaded not guilty, and 523 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 2: they both went to trial. Allan and Margaret's trials started 524 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: in summer of twenty twenty four in Luton Crown Court. 525 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: The prosecution focused on Alan and Margaret's love affair and 526 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: the motives financial and otherwise for why they said Alan 527 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: and Margaret needed Carol out of the way. The prosecution 528 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 2: said the killing was a result of Alan and Margaret's 529 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 2: quote passionate but forbidden An adulterous affair end quote. Carol's son, 530 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: Dean Morgan, testified about what happened on the day of 531 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 2: his mother's murder. He said when they got back to 532 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: the shop at ten thirty pm after the movies, Alan 533 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: had told him to go upstairs and make a cup 534 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: of coffee. He said that as he went through the 535 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 2: kitchen to get the coffee, he heard the family dog, Simon, 536 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: in Jane's bedroom whining to get out. He said, quote 537 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: the door was closed and he couldn't get out. Simon 538 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: usually had the run of the flat and the shop. 539 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: I let Simon out. I made Dad a cup of 540 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: coffee end quote, which brings up another question. If the 541 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: two witnesses who said they saw Carol at around eight 542 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: thirty pm were right and Carol was walking the dog, 543 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 2: then presumably the dog. 544 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 3: Was with Carol. 545 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: So how did the dog end up locked in the bedroom. 546 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: Dean talked about his shock after the arrests. He said 547 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: Alan had assured him that it was all just a 548 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: mix up, but Dean said they got into an argument 549 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: after that, and that he and Alan had not spoken since. 550 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 2: Side note here, I cannot imagine what those children must 551 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: have gone through first to lose their mother in such 552 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: a brutal way, then to live with Margaret and Allen 553 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: for all those years. I find myself wondering what the 554 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 2: relationship was like, and if they ever talked about that night, 555 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: and how they are feeling now wherever they are. 556 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 3: I hope that they have found some peace. 557 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 2: On June nineteenth, twenty twenty four, Alan Morgan was convicted 558 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: of conspiracy to murder Carol, but Margaret was acquitted. 559 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 3: She walked out of court a free woman. 560 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Allan was sentenced to life in prison with a 561 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 2: minimum term of twenty two years, which means at his 562 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: age he will almost certainly die behind bars. Finally, Carroll's 563 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: family had some justice. Carl Foster said he was happy 564 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 2: that Alan had been brought to justice, but he said 565 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: police would continue looking for the higher assassin and anyone 566 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: else who was involved in the conspiracy. 567 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 3: To kill Carroll. 568 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: The prosecuting attorney stated they believe the Chinese puzzle box 569 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: drawer was evidence that Alan had told the killer how 570 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: that drawer. 571 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 3: Could be opened. 572 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: The prosecution said they believe Allan had promised the hit 573 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: man money from that drawer and from the register. 574 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: As partial payment for the murder. 575 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: The prosecution said the motive for the murder was money, 576 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: but not the money from the shop, Allan's bigger financial problems. 577 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: The prosecution said Allan was facing financial ruin and that 578 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: he wanted the life insurance payout if Carol died. 579 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 3: They said that insurance. 580 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: Payout allowed him to pay off the loan from the 581 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: shop and start fresh with his lover, Margaret. The Justice 582 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: Martin Spencer said, quote, it is apparent that divorce was 583 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: not a viable option. On the jury's verdict, you decided 584 00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 2: on the alternative option, which was to get rid of 585 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: Carol by having her murdered. Her life insurance would clear 586 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 2: the debt of the business. It further meant you were 587 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 2: free to continue your affair with and eventually marry Margaret 588 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: Spinner end quote. The judge also talked about Carroll and 589 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 2: what a good person she was, saying that Carol was 590 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: a thoroughly admirable person and adding quote she did not 591 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 2: deserve to die, and I have no doubt that if 592 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 2: she met her death, her final thoughts would have been 593 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: with her two children, then aged fourteen and twelve end quote. 594 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 2: Police say they've accepted the fact they may never find 595 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 2: out who the actual killer was, but they've also said 596 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: they won't stop looking. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen 597 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production 598 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and 599 00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. 600 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 3: Special thanks to Amy. 601 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 2: Tubbs for her research assistance and to James Wheaton for 602 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: legal review. Noah Kamer mixed and scored this episode. Our 603 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 2: theme song is by Ben s Lee. Executive producers are 604 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 2: Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and l. C. 605 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 3: Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone. 606 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 2: Ad free by subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus 607 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 2: channel on Apple Podcasts. If you were interested in seeing 608 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 2: documents and materials from the case, you can follow the 609 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: show on Instagram at Helen gonpod. If you have a 610 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 2: case you'd like me and my team to look into, 611 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 2: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone 612 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 2: Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four six 613 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 2: one four five. That's six seven eight seven four four 614 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 2: six one four five. 615 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: School of Humans