1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Ken Timmerman is a 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: former war correspondent and investigative reporter who received the knock 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: on his door in a request was he willing to 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: help the US government and its war against international terrorism. 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: He agreed. At the time he was talking to people 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: the United States government could not talk to and they 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: wanted his access. So for many years and from multiple agencies, 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: he became an agent runner. In his new book The 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: Iran House Tales of Revolution, Persecution, War and Intrigue, he 10 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: reveals his deepest secrets about Iran, Israel, and US intelligence 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: operations on the ground and often in harm's way. With 12 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: the recent killing of Yayah Senlaar, the leader of AMAS, 13 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: by the Israelis, this conversation is very timely, so I'm 14 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: really pleased to welcome my guest, Ken Timmerman. He is 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: a former war correspondent, investigative reporter, human rights advocate, pro 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: freedom activist. He's been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. 17 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: He is currently a Senior Fellow in the Center for 18 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: American Security at America First Policy Institute. Ken, welcome and 19 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on News World. 20 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on, mister Speakers said, pleasure and 21 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: an honor. 22 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: Before we dive into your new book, I just want 23 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: to ask you to chat a little bit about your life. 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 1: I mean, you have really led quite a life well. 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: And mister Speaker, I owe a particular personal debt to 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: you because you were the one who made me see 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 2: the light although I had never met you and become 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: a Republican. In nineteen ninety four, I had come back 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: from many years of living overseas and came back to 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: work for were Tom Lantos on the Hill, and I 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: thought I was a Democrat, but I didn't understand why 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: all my friends on the Hill were Republicans. And one morning, 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: at two o'clock I couldn't sleep. Two o'clock in the morning, 34 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: I turned on Sea Span and there you were giving 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: a lecture about American history. I said, Wow, here's the 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: man who's supposed to have horns on his head, like 37 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: many people say about me these days as well. And no, no, 38 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: he is the most rational person I've ever heard. It 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: was wonderful. So you were the final nail that got 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: me to become a Republican. I've never regretted it one day, 41 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: mister Speakers, So thank you. 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: Well, thank you, and you brought up a great memory. 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: Tom Lantos was a great member. He had a pretty 44 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: good introduction to Congress if you were working for Atlantos. 45 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: But you've ended up as a reporter doing a wide 46 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: range of really interesting things before you got to the hill. 47 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: Talk about the whole process of the places you were 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: covering and what the evolution of the Middle East as 49 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: you see it. 50 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: Well, I started out in nineteen eighty two as a 51 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: young man living in Paris with a novel in my suitcase, 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: and finally realized I had to grow up. Wound up 53 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: getting a stringer's job going to Beirut to cover the 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two war. Nineteen eighty two, the first Israeli 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: in invasion that got up to Bayrout. I was a 56 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: friend of the Palestinians. I was anti Israeli. I was 57 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: a left wing left bank intellectual in Paris, and I 58 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 2: promptly got taken hostage by the Palestinians, who I thought 59 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: I so loved, and held hostage for twenty four days 60 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: in a cellar in Beyrout, where they nearly killed me. 61 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: And I came to my savior. I came to Jesus 62 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: at that time in the cellar, he literally brought me 63 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: out of the darkness into the light. I would not 64 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: be here today. And in all the times that I've 65 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: been covering really dicey situations, whether it's at thirteen thousand 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: feet outitude along the border between Iran and Iraq and 67 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: the Candle Mountains, or in the Iranian Revolutionary Guard squad 68 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: to been out gunning for me in northern Iraq. And 69 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: I've always known that the Lord's got a plan for me, 70 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: and I don't think is to die that particular way. 71 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: I could have died in Beirut as a younger, and 72 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: he saved me for something. And I'm here to air 73 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: witness to that. 74 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: What was it like back in that period to be 75 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: held hostage for twenty four days? 76 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't a lot of fun. And I joked 77 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: afterwards with the Israelis and a room full of reporters, 78 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: when the reporters, of course were telling the IDF, well, 79 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: you were engaged in indiscriminate bombing of the Palestinians in Beirut. 80 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 2: That was the claim then, is the claim today? Nothing 81 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: new under the sun. And I raised my hand and 82 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: I said, well, actually, Colonel I can attest to all 83 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: these people here. It was not indiscriminate. I was being 84 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: held within one hundred meters of the sports stadium underground, 85 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: and that's where all the Palestinian Triple A artillery was, 86 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: all of their anti air guns. At that time, they 87 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: didn't have modern air defenses. And you just showed that 88 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 2: gun footage, that gun camera footage. All your bombs landed 89 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: with a hundred meters. I was within that one hundred 90 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: meter radius and money of them landed on top of me. 91 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: That must have been almost a terrifying experience. 92 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: It was terrifying, of course, but that's why I say 93 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: I was brought out of the darkness into the light, 94 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: and it changed my life forever. 95 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: I was in tragued by the fact that you were 96 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the former Swedish 97 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: Deputy Premier Perol Hellmark in two thousand and six, and 98 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: that you were the lead outside investigator for a group 99 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: of law firms representing the families of nine to eleven 100 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: in their successful lawsuit against the Iranian regime. You must 101 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: have really had a tremendous knowledge of what was going 102 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: on in the region. 103 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: You know, I began As an old school reporter, I 104 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: believed in going to places on the ground. That's why 105 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: after I was released as a hostage, I went back 106 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 2: to Israel. I went back to Lebanon. I went back 107 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: to report on the Palestinians in the Bikav Valley. I 108 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 2: went to Iraq again and again and again during the 109 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: Iran Iraq War. So ta'm Mussein blacklisted me at one point, 110 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: and then ultimately I was brought back by their defense 111 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: minister because I was one of the few war correspondents 112 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: who actually knew something about their defense equipment and their 113 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: defense programs. I was running for defense magazines that time. 114 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 2: It's just given me an insight into the region, which 115 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: I don't think you have. So in eighty seven I 116 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: started a newsletter I've subscribed to something that you probably remember, 117 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: mister Speaker, called FBIS. These are these little blue books 118 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: of far and Broadcast Information Service, So the CIA would 119 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: translate radio takes and things on TV from obscure little 120 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: places in Isfahan and other places in Iran. And I 121 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: noticed in nineteen eighty seven they said, well, there's a 122 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: Pakistani nuclear scientist coming to Iran on a consulting agreement 123 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: with the Iranian Atomic Energy Organization and his name is 124 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: Abdul kot Or Khan. Well, when I saw that, the 125 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: lights went off in my head and I said, well, 126 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 2: abdulkot Or Khan is the father of the Islamic bomb 127 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: in Pakistan. Why would he be going to Iran. And 128 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: I started to look into it and look into it 129 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: and look into it, and it turned out that he 130 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: is the man who perfected centrifuge enrichment technology outside of 131 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: the Western world. Soho, he did it for the Islamic 132 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: world and became what we called him the Chairman of 133 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: the Board of Bombs or us. So I began to 134 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: write about it. I actually went to one of the 135 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: air shows in the Middle East. I've got hanging in 136 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: my office a shopping bag from Abdul cot Or Khan. 137 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: It's one of my little trophies, unusual trophies. But he 138 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: was the man who built Iran's uranium enrichment program. And 139 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: I wrote about that in the late eighties the early 140 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties and finally pair allmach to recognize that, and 141 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: he said, look if the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, 142 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: gets a Nobel Peace Prize for belatedly going into Iran 143 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: after everybody was pushing them to look at what the 144 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: Iranians were doing. Ken Timmerman deserves it because he was 145 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: one of the first to actually expose what the Iranians 146 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: were doing. So it was for exposing the Iranian nuclear 147 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: weapons program early on. 148 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: You been looking at the Iranian program for over thirty years. Oh? 149 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. 150 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: Do you really think, after all that they don't have 151 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: a bomb. 152 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: Well, an actual nucletar explosive device, I don't know. I 153 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: think if they had one, we would know it because 154 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: they would have used it. I think what they do have, 155 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: and I'm convinced that they have. They have all of 156 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: the non nuclear components, and by the way, it's not simple. 157 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: Some of those non nuclear components are really not trivial, 158 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: and they've developed that over many, many years. We knew 159 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: it from the IAEA in more recent years, but we 160 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: also knew it because of Mosat and one of the 161 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: most extraordinary intelligence coups I think in the history of 162 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: modern day intelligence, where you know, the Israelis send this 163 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: team into Tehran and they find the warehouse in the 164 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: southern part of the city, a nondescript area. They go 165 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: in at eleven o'clock at night, they penetrate the warehouse. 166 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: They find they're two containers inside full of these floor 167 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 2: to ceiling safes, and they crack the saves. They get 168 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: all the stuff out and they get out before dawn 169 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: and they get out of dodge and they bring it 170 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: out and they've got five hundred fible box and it's 171 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: the entire nucleut archive of the Iranian regime, and they 172 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: prove it from A to Z. They show exactly what 173 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: the Iranians have been doing. So we know that the 174 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: Iranians have mastered all of that very complicated physics of exploding, 175 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: packing the conventional explosives around a nuclear core and detonating it. 176 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: We know that they know how to do it. We 177 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: know that they've produced the neutron initiators and all that 178 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: other pieces of equipment. The last piece is just putting 179 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: it all together. And the actual putting it all together 180 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 2: doesn't take all that long. So that's why you had 181 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: even the IAEA recently. And this is incredibly serious and 182 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: the Biden administration just doesn't pay any attention to it. 183 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: Biden Harris couldn't care less, the IAEA said recently, the 184 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: Iranians now they have enough fissile material nuclear explosive material 185 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: to make five warheads within a week, and fifteen within 186 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: five months, fifteen weapons within five months. 187 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: And I take it year and says they'll use them. 188 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: My sense is that they're going to test first. I 189 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: think they will test, although they could test in a 190 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: real life situation, which is what everybody's afraid of. But 191 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: my guess is that they will test first. They will 192 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: try to make everybody believe that they are now a 193 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: nuclear weapon state, and therefore if you attack Iran, you 194 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 2: could have a nuclear weapon coming back at you. 195 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: If you were the Israelis, would you gamble on there 196 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: being primarily using it as a counterforce measure to protect 197 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: around or would you be worried that they would actually 198 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: offensively use it. 199 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 2: I'd be absolutely, very very concerned that they would use 200 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: it offensively. Remember, this is a regime that is its 201 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 2: very goal is the extermination of America and the extermination 202 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: of Israel. We are the great Saintan people forget that. 203 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: Sometimes they think that the Iranian regime only cares about Israel. No, no, 204 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: they care about us as well, and they have said 205 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: we will exterminate America and exterminate Israel. There's a story 206 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: that our listeners might not know, and you might not 207 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 2: know it either, mister speaker. I'm an Aida job, the 208 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: former president who was very well known around the world. 209 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: When he took office in two thousand and five, he 210 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: held a meeting of all his cabinet ministers and he said, 211 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: we are going to dedicate this administration, this new government, 212 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: to ushering in the Mati, the twelfthy mom of Shi'ite Islam, 213 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 2: who is going to come and lead us to Jerusalem 214 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: and bring in basically the end of the world. I'm 215 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: not making this up. His first act was actually to 216 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: make a new four lane highway from Tehran to this 217 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 2: well in Jamaran where the Imam Mahdi was supposed to 218 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: have been occulted in others, he disappeared and I think 219 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 2: AD ninety three, and they took their pledges, they wrote 220 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: them one pieces of paper and they dropped them down 221 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: the well. This is the way this regime thinks. They 222 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: don't think the way that you and I do. 223 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: Well. I always ask my liberal friends when you hear 224 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: the Iranian parliament chant death to America and death to Israel, 225 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: what do you think the subliminal messages I'm sure they 226 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: have some convoluted explanation of what the Iranians would really do. 227 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: Although about three months ago the Ayatula Hameni went on 228 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: national television and said, I want to reassure you death 229 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: to America is not a slogan, it's a policy. As 230 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: a historian, I take that very seriously. I want to 231 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: take you on a detour because you ended up in 232 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: twenty twelve running for Congress in Maryland's eighth district. What 233 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,599 Speaker 1: did you learn from that experience? 234 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I learned that Chris van Holland, 235 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: who was the Democrat incumbent at that time and now 236 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: the senior Senator from Maryland, is a pretty scurrilous individual. 237 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: He was also anti Israel and pro Iranian, and he 238 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 2: tried to pretend that he wasn't. He would show up 239 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: in liberal synagogues in this district, but everybody knew that 240 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: he hated Israel, and I put out a sixteen page 241 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: newsletter on his record on Israel. Didn't support Iron Dome, 242 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: wouldn't fund Iron Dome. He appeared at j Streets. He 243 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: sent his daughter actually to study in Romala in the 244 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: West Bank as a young woman. I didn't put that 245 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: in the news letter. I thought that was too personal, 246 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: but we learned that as well, and we made fifteen 247 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,239 Speaker 2: thousand copies to put a copy in every single mailbox 248 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: of every household in the Jewish areas of our district, 249 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: which were very well known, and I knew all the 250 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: rabbis there, became very good friends. Then halland was absolutely furious. 251 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: So that was a fun little takeaway. 252 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: By the way, did it have any impact on their votes? 253 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: Well, I won those Jewish districts which never voted Republican 254 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: before those precincts, so lost the election, but I at 255 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: least won those precincts. But the other thing, which was 256 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: a bit pause for thought, was that we had problems 257 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 2: with the auction machines, the voting machines in Maryland at 258 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: that time, twenty twelve, and we had reports on election 259 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: day people would call us up and say, you know, 260 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: I voted for you, and it switched to Van holland 261 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: I voted for Romedy, it switched to Obama. And we 262 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: looked into this. In one county, we actually got the 263 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: election officials who were appointed by Republicans to show us 264 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: what was going on with the machines, and they said yeah, 265 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: we had a problem with one particular machine, and we 266 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: had a computer expert who looked at and said, yeah, 267 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: but that could have been replicated to all the others 268 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: and they said, oh, no, no, no, but it didn't. We 269 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: took it to the boards in the other counties and 270 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: even the Republicans just pushed it away. We did a 271 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: after action canvassing of one particular machine where I think 272 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: Van Holland had you know, seventy percent of the votes 273 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: in the machine, and it turned out that half of 274 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: the votes that he was supposed to get were cast 275 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 2: by Republicans. Independence We went to the houses and they 276 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 2: said they voted for me. We never were able to 277 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: resolve that. So that led me to write a book 278 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: called The Election Heist that I published in February of 279 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty as a fiction about the twenty twenty election, 280 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: the election hest, the Election Heights, and I gave it 281 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: to the President after the election in West Palm at 282 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: his golf club. He said, oh, the Election Heist. 283 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: We will have to include a link to that on 284 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: our show page so people can get a copy. I 285 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: assume it's still available. 286 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: But it was a fiction, not a fantasy. 287 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: It turned out. I think you have a lot of 288 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: truth to it. Now. After you ran, you went on 289 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: to be a guest lecturer at the Pentagon's Joint Counterintelligence 290 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: Training Academy in Quantico. What was that like? 291 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: It's interesting. I had quote students listening to my lectures 292 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: on Iran and about Iranian culture, and about the Ayahtola 293 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: and about Shaid Islam. I had people from all across 294 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: the intelligence community, and to a man or a woman, 295 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: they were all happy to tell me who they worked for, 296 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: except the people who worked at the agency. And either 297 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: there weren't any students from the agency or they just 298 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 2: didn't want to talk to me because one of the 299 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: stories I told them, it was a kind of long lecture. 300 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: One of the stories I told them was about a 301 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 2: defector that I had worked with, an Iranian defector debriefed 302 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: for this lawsuit against Iran for the victims of the 303 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: nine to eleven attacks that we won. Actually we won 304 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: the judgment against them in a New York district court, 305 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: and this defector came out in July of two thousand 306 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: and one, defected Dabaku and Azerbaijan met with a CIA said, 307 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: I have documents that show the Iranian regime is cooperated 308 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: with quote Arabs in Afghanistan, they didn't call them al Qaeda. 309 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 2: Arabs in Afghanistan. A massive attack on America. They're going 310 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: to use airplanes, commercial airliners as weapons. They're going to 311 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: hit the Pentagon, they're going to hit the CIA building, 312 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: they're going to hit the World Trade Center, and they're 313 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: going to attack the White House. And oh, by the way, 314 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: it's going to take place on the twentieth of Charhivar. 315 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: That's the Persian calendar day. So CIA, George, who's there, 316 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: you know, taking notes? He takes out his Persian calendar 317 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: and says, oh, well, you mean the tenth of September. 318 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: Why don't you come back then when you have a 319 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 2: better idea what's going on? Here's three hundred dollars and 320 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: I get out of my life. Well, it turns out, 321 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: and I didn't know this at the time, and my 322 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: guy didn't know it either. Turns out that the twentieth 323 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,239 Speaker 2: of Sharivar was in fact the eleventh of September. So 324 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 2: he gave the CIA a forecast with documents to support 325 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: it about the meetings. So what had happened? They brought 326 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: al top They brought al Zawaeri, the number two of 327 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: al Qaeda, to Iran before the attacks in May of 328 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: two thousand and one. They brought bin Laden's sun there. 329 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: And what day was this meeting with the defector? 330 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: So the meeting with a defector in Bakhu was the 331 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: twenty sixth of July two thousand and one, over six 332 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: weeks before eleven attacks, and they just pushed them away. 333 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: So the agency hated me ever since you asked me 334 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: about Jacita, so they probably never showed up. I told 335 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 2: that story to these people the Joint Counterintelligence Training Academy, 336 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: and finally a woman came up to me at the 337 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: end and she'd been kind of quietly listening to my 338 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 2: talk at the back and she said, well, I'm not 339 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: Deputy Director of National Intelligence in charge of the Iran file. 340 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: I said, oh, that's very interesting, and she said, yeah. 341 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: You know, we used to think. We used to think 342 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 2: that the Iranians, because they were Shias, could never cooperate 343 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: with Sunni terrorist groups, especially Wahabie groups like al Qaeda, 344 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: right the Saudis. But we're starting to change our view 345 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: on this and we're starting to review our holdings from 346 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: pre nine to eleven to see what we missed, and 347 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 2: even in the nine to eleven Commission report, and that's how, 348 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: actually how we started our lawsuit against Iran. Even in 349 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 2: the nine to eleven Commission report, they discovered that they 350 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: were seventy five intercepts from the NSA, in particular showing 351 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: eight to ten of the al Qaeda muscle hijackers traveling 352 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: from Beirut and from Damascus to Tehran and from there 353 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: into Afghanistan, so they didn't get their visa stamped. 354 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: I'm now convinced the system is bad enough that we 355 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: have to talk about national survival, not national security, because 356 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: I think national security is too soft a term and 357 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: allows us to shrug and say, well, whether it's defense 358 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: contracting or the intelligence community, jee will somehow muddle through. 359 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: I don't believe that's true. I think it's much sicker 360 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: and much deeper. Having this chance to talk with you 361 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: today is almost perfect, this apparent leak of Israel's pose 362 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: on my personal belief, given that Massad was smart enough 363 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 1: to have a multi year campaign to substitute devices and 364 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: then come back and substitute radios, and then have thought 365 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: it through enough that when you couldn't communicate with each other. 366 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: The leadership had to physically come together, which then created 367 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: a target base, or that Mosat thought far enough ahead 368 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: that they'd actually planted a bomb inside the VIP guesthouse 369 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: so they could take out one of the leaders of Hamas. 370 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: When you look at that level of subtlety, my personal 371 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: hunch is that everything they sent us is a lie, 372 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: and that they actually might not mind it being leaked 373 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: a because it will prove to the country how totally 374 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: incompetent our current security system is. B because I suspect 375 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: if the Iranians read carefully the stuff that's been leaked 376 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: and respond accordingly, that in fact, the israel Is intended 377 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: to do something radically different than what they gave us. 378 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: Very interesting, that's a very interesting thesis, mister speaker, and 379 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody else has really gone into it 380 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: in that level of detail or insight. You know, one 381 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: of the classification markings on one of the documents with 382 00:20:54,920 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: FGI ISR, which means foreign Government Information Israel, which means 383 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,199 Speaker 2: it's some of the information, and it was particular the 384 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 2: information about the rocks, the particular bombs that they were loading, 385 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 2: the missiles they were loading apparently came from the Israelis themselves. 386 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: That kind of supports what you're saying is that it 387 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: might have been what a certain spy novelist used to 388 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: call a barium meal. You put out some information, part 389 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 2: of it's true, but part of it is not true, 390 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: and you put it into the system to see who 391 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 2: bites and who sends it off, and that way you 392 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 2: have a kind of radioactive trace. 393 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: It raises the questions I've been working on for almost 394 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: a year now, which is the level of Iranian penetration 395 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: of the Biden Harris team. It is stunning going back 396 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: to the Secretary of State's high school relationship with one 397 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: of the leading pro Iranian operatives, who also was in 398 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: the Harvard with the Obama I mean, he started looking 399 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: at these relationships and it really does begin to be 400 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: like a spy novel. 401 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: I write about that in the Iran House and Philip Gordon, 402 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 2: who's the National Security advisor to Vice President Harris, he 403 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: was also involved in this so called Iran Experts Initiative. 404 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: This was an effort led by the Iranian Foreign Ministry 405 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: during the Obama administration to plant pro Iranian experts in 406 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: think tanks and in government, and so Philip Gordon, who 407 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 2: worked with the current Secretary of State and with John 408 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 2: carry on that nuclear deal. In twenty fifteen, he penned 409 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: op eds with a woman named Arian Tabatabai. She was 410 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 2: part of the Iran Experts Initiative. Her emails were subsequently leaked. 411 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: She was asking the Iranian Foreign Minister, should I go 412 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: to this meeting? Should I go to that meeting? Should 413 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: I attend this conference? She was asking him basically for 414 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: advice on what she should do to promote the Iranian 415 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: government point of view. She today is the chief of 416 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 2: staff to the Assistant Secretary Offense for Special operations. 417 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: It's insanity. It rivals or surpasses the Soviet penetration in 418 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: World War Two, where there were probably five hundred agents 419 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: at one time in the American government who were actually 420 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: Soviet allies. Given that, what would you recommend the American 421 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: goal should be in the new administration in terms of 422 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: dealing with Iram. 423 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: Well I actually published a piece four the America First 424 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: Policy Institute about that, and it's a target rich environment. 425 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 2: I mean, the very first is to start by reimposing 426 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 2: the maximum pressure sanctions on the regime, which were lifted 427 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 2: by Biden on day one. Not only did he open 428 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: the border, he also opened up Iran's oil exports. They 429 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: went from four hundred thousand barrels a day to two 430 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 2: and a half million barrels a day today. That gave 431 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: them an extra one hundred billion dollars. So that's a 432 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 2: relatively easy thing to do. The president can issue an 433 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 2: executive order on day one and reimpose those sanctions which 434 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: are already by the way in law from Congress. It's 435 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: just that Biden waived them. Beyond that, I believe we 436 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 2: have to realize that previous policies, either of putting pressure 437 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: on the regime or of giving them incentives, so the 438 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 2: Republicans tend to put pressure, the Democrats tend to give 439 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 2: incentives or to appease the regime, neither of those has 440 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: achieved their stated objective, which is to change the behavior. 441 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: Of the regime. 442 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: They will not change their behavior short of really dramatic actions. 443 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: I think one of those dramatic actions, and I write 444 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 2: about this in the book, was the killing of Kasum Solomani. 445 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 2: I think that was a tremendously courageous thing for President 446 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: Trump to have ordered. It was important. It put the 447 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 2: CUDS Force, which was the Iranian regime's foreign expeditionary arm 448 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: on its hea. They have never recovered from that, by 449 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 2: the way, And the rumor today is that his successor, 450 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: Costam Solomoni successor was an Israeli agent. So President Trump 451 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 2: really did amazing work by ordering that assassination of Costum Solomon. 452 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: So we need to do more dramatic things that I 453 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: think we should help the people of Iran to overthrow 454 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: the regime. Not with boots on the ground, not with 455 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 2: military assistance, not in an Iraq style effort, but things 456 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: like giving them communications devices that they can use to 457 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: keep those channels open when the regime turns everything dark 458 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: and is killing people. Things like shaming the regime in 459 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: international organizations, preventing the leaders from actually traveling to Europe 460 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 2: and other places to cash in on their secret bank accounts, 461 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: making sure that we delegitimize the regime, we don't treat 462 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: them as a legitimate, democratic, elected government, as Biden and 463 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: Harris have been doing. And I think if the people 464 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: of Ron finally see that America is behind them, which 465 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 2: they have never seen before, by the way, I think 466 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: extraordinary things will happen. I also suggest we should appoint 467 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: an ambassador to the free people of Iran. The President 468 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 2: special representative who will be the ambassador to the free 469 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: people of Iran. Having worked with Iranian pro freedom groups 470 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 2: over many, many, many years, I can tell you that 471 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: would have an incredibly dramatic impact on bringing people together 472 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: if they knew that the US government was finally, finally 473 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 2: serious about helping them. 474 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: In your judgment, what is the role of the mek 475 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: as an opposition for us? 476 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: So I've known the MK for a long time, okay, 477 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: a long long time. I knew them first in Paris 478 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 2: in the eighties. 479 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: Which is still the best place to know them. 480 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: Which was the best place to know though, absolutely correct, 481 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: that is true. My wife had the best take on 482 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: the mister speaker. Right after we moved here and I 483 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: met to meet one of their guys. We went together 484 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: to go for lunch and my wife came up and 485 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: put out her hand as any normal person. Oh no, no, 486 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 2: I cannot shake hands with a woman Yani Islam forbids it. 487 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: They are Islamic Marxists. In the beginning of the revolution, 488 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: people have short memories. It's over forty years ago. They 489 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 2: were on homem aany side their strike forces helped to 490 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: round up and murder three thousand, five hundred military officers 491 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: of the Shah's Praetorian Guard and of the army. They 492 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: were with Romani until mid nineteen eighty one, so they 493 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 2: were with Homani for a year and a half, and 494 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: then they had a falling out over what not over policy, 495 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: not over the direction of the revolution, over power sharing. 496 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: The mujaid in the Mek wanted to be in charge 497 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: and Homedy said no, no, no, no, it's me. I'm in charge. 498 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: And so their leader, Rajavi, he fled to Paris, set 499 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 2: himself up in the outskirts of Paris in a place 500 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 2: called Oversko was and the rest is history, so to speak. 501 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 2: But they are hated by the Iranian people for one 502 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: reason in particular, and that is RAJIVI cited with Saddam Hussein. 503 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 2: He'd later moved to Iraq, set up camps in Iraq. 504 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: During that eight year war between Iran and Iraq tremendously bloody. 505 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: Ward I covered it on the ground, it's just an 506 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: amazing war, horrible. It's a bit like Ukraine today, a long, 507 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 2: hard slog, and Iranians don't forget Rajavi for standing next 508 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 2: to Saddam, for literally kissing the ring, taking money from him, 509 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: and invading Iran with Iraqi troops at his back. So 510 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 2: they've never forgiven him for that, and I think that's 511 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 2: kind of permanently exclusive. And the final thing is they 512 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: have this sixteen point plan for a future regime in Iran, 513 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: with of course, their president elect. They have a president elected. 514 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: She's already been elected I don't know how many times 515 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: by I don't know who, but she's president elect. They 516 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: call her that. And one of those points for the 517 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 2: future democracy is that nobody who has had any relationship 518 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: with either the Pahlavi regime, shaj regime, or with the 519 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: regime of the Mullas has any future in our democratic Iran. 520 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: And I'm sorry to tell you, but you're not going 521 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 2: to make a revolution in Iran today. You're not going 522 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: to get rid of the regime of the Mullas if 523 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: you don't draw on all of the elements of Iranian society, 524 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 2: including people who are today in the regime, not reformists, 525 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: but people who are keeping quiet, people who are businessmen, 526 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: people who are investing money trying to see how they 527 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: can keep from getting in trouble. Getting killed, getting their 528 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 2: businesses shut down. Those people can be positive forces in 529 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: the future. But if you adhere to what the Mek says, no, 530 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: can't ever talk to them. They have no future in Iran. 531 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: Let me ask one last big thing, which is if 532 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: you were advising Israeli government, what would your target list 533 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: look like if they decide to really hit or on hard? 534 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: What does hard mean in dealing with a dictatorship like this. 535 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: I put it in the book because I gave it 536 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: to them fifteen years ago. It was a target list 537 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: was given to me by the son of the former 538 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: head of the Revolutionary Guards Corps, one of those defectors 539 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: that I talked to, and he said, look, you have 540 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: to hit the leadership. And there's really only about three 541 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: hundred of them. They're not that many, and they get 542 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 2: together every year at certain times in certain places, and 543 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: we know where they are, and you can get all 544 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 2: of them, all of them on a single day. And 545 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 2: now it's public because it's in the book. But I 546 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: also gave it to the US intelligence community back in 547 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight. 548 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: Which given the recent ability of the Israelis, both with 549 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: Hamas and Hesbellah, you would have to believe that if 550 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: they wanted to, they could pull that off. 551 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: I think they could, Plus they know how to do it. 552 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: And the Iranians, having recently allowed hesbalaa fire a drone 553 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: at Netanya Who's personal home, probably set a new standard 554 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: for how netnya who will think about hitting them. 555 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: Yes, you would like to think that that would be 556 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: the same for or President Biden. Since the Iranians have 557 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: made clear that they want to assassinate former President Trump 558 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 2: and they published a video online on Twitter before Elon 559 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: Musk bought it in January of twenty twenty two, showing 560 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: a computer generated graphics of how they would attack him 561 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: at his golf course. And you know, the view that 562 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 2: they show in that video is exactly the view where 563 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: that want to be assassin of the person, the alleged 564 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: assassin that the Secret Service got before he fired his shots. 565 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: He wasn't exactly the same place as you see in 566 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: that Iranian government video. 567 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: I think it's virtually criminal that the Biden administration refuses 568 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: to provide the level of security that that kind of challenge. 569 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: And well, Biden has said a couple of things, and 570 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: Speaker Johnson has been very clear that attacking a senior 571 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: American politician would be an act of war. My view 572 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: would be we would then have to eliminate the regime. 573 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: Nothing short of that would be acceptable, And we have 574 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: the capacity. We can find an eliminate the three hundred 575 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: top people pretty quickly if we. 576 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: Want to, absolutely. And the thing is, the Iranians know it, 577 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 2: but at the same time, they can't help themselves. I 578 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: guess that's the good news, is that they are vulnerable 579 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 2: should we ever get serious. Now, think about this just 580 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: for a second, mister speaker, what would the Middle East 581 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: look like if this Iranian regime no longer existed. They 582 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: are a poisoned arrow in the heart of the Middle East, 583 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: supporting the Hutis Hummas his Bullah groups in Iraq and 584 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 2: in Syria. You take them away, and all of a sudden, 585 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 2: lots of good things become possible. 586 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: First of all, you have a lot of unemployed terrorists 587 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: who won't be able to get a check. I think 588 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: that you would reset the entire region almost overnight into 589 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: a dramatically more benign and survivable world who had offset 590 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: everything the Russians have screwed up in Ukraine in terms 591 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: of strategic balance, Ken, this is a fascinating conversation. I 592 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, 593 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: The Iran House, Tales of Revolution, Persecution, War and Intrigue 594 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere, and 595 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: our listeners can find out more about America First Policy 596 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: Institute at America First Policy dot com. I really appreciate 597 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: that you spending this time educating us. 598 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, thanks for having me, mister speaker. God bless. 599 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Ken Timmerman. You can get 600 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Iran House 601 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtworld dot com. News World 602 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 603 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: producer is Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 604 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 605 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Ginglish three sixty. If you've 606 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 607 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 608 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 609 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of newts World can sign up for 610 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: my three freeweekly columns at Gingrich three sixty dot com 611 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is neut world.