1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: Our fourth episode this season, Children of the Mist, took 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: us to aute rowa, New Zealand, where a law called 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: the tey Uuwera Act recognized a rainforest as its own 4 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: legal entity. Today, we're bringing you a bonus episode so 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: that you can hear more from Tarmati Kruger, the chair 6 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: of the Board of Humans that act as the legal 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: guardians of Teyuduwara. If you haven't listened already, the full 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: episode goes into some of the history of how tou Hoi, 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: the Maori tribe who called Teyuuwera home, had their land 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: violently and illegally confiscated during colonization. Unlike the New Zealand government, 11 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: which views land as property, to hoy believe that Teyuuwera 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: is their ancestor. In that episode, how as a two 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,919 Speaker 1: Hi negotiator, Tarmaiti Kruger helped to introduce an indigenous understanding 14 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: of nature into New Zealand law. Today, we're sharing with 15 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: you more of i interview with Kruger. You'll also hear 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: a bit later on from Kirsty Luke, the CEO of 17 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: the Twohwii Tribal Authority, who joined us for the interview 18 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: and gave her insights into the Teyutawarra Act and climate change. 19 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Damages. I'm Lindel Rowdins. 20 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 2: I had heard about rights of nature for a while, 21 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: but right when I was starting to dig into it 22 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: a little bit more, this great documentary came out. It's 23 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: called Invisible Hand. It's the third film from directors Joshua 24 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: Prabanik and Melissa Troutman and executive producer Mark Ruffalo. It's 25 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: one seven Best Documentary Words and received laurels from twenty 26 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: two international film festivals. It's an excellent deep dive on 27 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: the subject of rights of nature. If you want to 28 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: dig into it even more after listening to this series, 29 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 2: I highly highly recommend it. It's a paradigm shifting documentary 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: that does not leave viewers in total despair, but actually 31 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: provides some inspirational solutions, strategies and stories that will move 32 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: you to take action where you live. If you haven't 33 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: seen Invisible Hand, you're missing out. Go to Invisible handfilm 34 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 2: dot com for more on where to watch and how 35 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: to support this great work. 36 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: We originally looked into Tayo to Where this season because 37 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: it's considered one of the first examples in the world 38 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: of rights of nature. But as you'll hear Talma Ti 39 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: Kruger sees the Act as being a bit different. 40 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 3: My name's Tarmati. I'm the chair all the theater would aboard, 41 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: and I'm also the chair of the two where tribal authority. 42 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 3: I think perhaps the better way of getting an appreciation 43 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: of the picture of that first purpose of the Act 44 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 3: is to realize that after one hundred and eighty years 45 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: of colonization in Alpero in New Zealand, to Rouye, that 46 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: is a tribal group, is one of a number of 47 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: tribal groups that were afflicted by colonization, where primarily we 48 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: suffered prejudice and injustice and loss. When we had the 49 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: opportunity to look at resolving a settlement with the Crown 50 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: or with the New Zealand government, it was really based 51 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: on the need for justice, but that quality which the 52 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: Crown is unable to deliver to all indigenous people. So 53 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 3: the settlement that we negotiated with the Crown was for 54 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 3: the return of our entire homeland which had been confiscated 55 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 3: by the Crown and had left my people destitute for 56 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 3: one hundred years or more. So, the connection. The purpose 57 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: of the act, which is the connection of the two 58 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: where people with third weather, is around our identity, our 59 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 3: sense of belonging, our connection with the land, which our 60 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 3: identity and our sense of belonging all comes from the 61 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 3: very culture, from our literature to cuisine, to our art 62 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 3: and culture, to our language, to our traditions and customs. 63 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 3: They all come from our homeland, from the land. So 64 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: the purpose is to retrieve that sense of belonging, and 65 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 3: that is we're justice lies for ourselves. 66 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: The Tayoa Werreat became law in twenty fourteen, but Tamati 67 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: Kruger goes on to explain how fachu Hoi, the process 68 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: of reconnecting with their homeland after more than a century 69 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: of dispossession hasn't happened overnight. 70 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 3: I believe it has started the most sincere form of 71 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: healing and connection, we predicted that it would take us 72 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 3: no less than two generations, approximately forty years to see 73 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: the signs of the return and the restoration of our culture, 74 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 3: of our sense of belonging and of connection. And so 75 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: we are only ten years now into that journey, but 76 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: already we are getting a full sight of what we 77 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 3: have to do and the journey is most difficult, isn't 78 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 3: it for all in genous people, because we are exploring 79 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 3: the depth of hurt, the depth of damage and lost 80 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 3: to us or this is our journey that are beyond words, 81 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 3: and that all indigenous people around the world have to 82 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 3: confront and amount what we have lost, what we cannot 83 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 3: restore and repatriate, and what we have to design and create. 84 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: While the Tayota Water Act is considered by many to 85 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: be an example of the legal approach known as rights 86 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: of nature, to HOI have a different way of understanding 87 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,559 Speaker 1: their relationship with the land. 88 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: We don't think describing it as rights is helpful in 89 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: our situation. To who believe that they are born with responsibilities, 90 00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: not rights. We are born into a family that of 91 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: the environment that involves nature in our creation stories. There 92 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 3: is no space, no regard for ownership, entitlement or rights. 93 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: Where we are born as part of nature. It is 94 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: our point of origin and our point of return. As 95 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 3: to where people, we accept that we have obligations and 96 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: responsibilities not only to ourselves, but to how we live 97 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: where we live, and that it is our duty in 98 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: order for us to progress in advance as human beings, 99 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: we must know our place in nature. We don't see 100 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: that our struggle is a struggle of rights. It's rather 101 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: a struggle to restore our sense of responsibility to ourselves 102 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 3: and to nature we don't own. We don't own this land, 103 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: but we live with it, and our behavior and what 104 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: we believe in and what we sense will determine how 105 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 3: well we live with the land. 106 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: My next question was about what the two Hi approach 107 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: to nature might mean at a time when the climate 108 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: is changing. And for this question, Kirsty Luke, the CEO 109 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: of the Two Hawaii Tribal Authority, gave an incredible answer, 110 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: building on what Kruger had just explained. 111 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 4: I would say at the beginning of your questions was 112 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: one around the statutory purpose of Third Reader Act, which 113 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 4: is to strengthen the connection two where we're third water. 114 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 5: That is the first time or use of that term 115 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 5: in New Zealand legislation. What we were intending by that 116 00:08:54,040 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 5: was to very deliberately disrupt the idea of property rights, 117 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 5: of ownership, that being the thing that is determining breeding, 118 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 5: even one's attitude and entitled view of papasuniku of the 119 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 5: planet of land. So it's a small word in whatever 120 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 5: are the one hundred pages of that piece of legislation, 121 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 5: But it is the mighty word, because the word we 122 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 5: are using to undo the harsh damage of capitalism in 123 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 5: the hearts and minds of our children, and our families 124 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 5: and our communities. So our fear of climate change is 125 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 5: not for the land. The climate is evolving in a 126 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 5: way that is making it inhabitable for humans. But I 127 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 5: doubt the land itself is as distressed as we are. 128 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 5: We don't worry for the land. We All we see 129 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 5: is that we have lost, through our practices and our 130 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 5: behaviors and our care of land, that we have lost 131 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 5: the right to live here. So our problem is a 132 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 5: people problem. Our problem is a human challenge. It's a 133 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 5: humanity challenge. And that's why we and the medicine as 134 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 5: parvency has described as one of responsibility, of reconnection, of care, 135 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 5: not so that we can turn that care into a 136 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 5: currency called money and somehow pretend to each other that 137 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 5: we can survive fires and floods, but that our collective 138 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 5: click care might address the greed, the greed that we're growing, 139 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 5: that the must have entitlement, that insatiable, we deficit, thinking 140 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 5: that we just don't have enough when we do, that's 141 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 5: maybe not a great answer to climate change to make 142 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 5: less breed humans of it. That's all I've got for you. 143 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: No, you really got to the hut of the issue. 144 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 3: We're proud to be to where we're proud of the 145 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 3: customs and the traditions and the heritage that tells us 146 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 3: that we are from nature, we're part of nature, and 147 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: that we have responsibility. That is our salvation and that 148 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: is our future. This is not something we understand is 149 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 3: unique to where but to all indigenous people. And there 150 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 3: was a time in Western culture where it too was 151 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: their tradition, was their custom until they lost their way. 152 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 3: They now rely on the indigenous people to bring back 153 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: a heart memory of that because it's good for humanity 154 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: and it's good for the planet that we're round. That 155 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 3: we're blessed to be here. So you know, we are 156 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 3: grateful to the millions of people around the world that 157 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 3: dedicate their time, their intellect in raising gratitude, in raising 158 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 3: appreciation by all people and government, that we desperately need 159 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 3: to change the way we live, our lifestyle, our livelihood, 160 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 3: our values in order to be better humans. 161 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: That's all for this episode. Next week. Our season concludes 162 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: with a look at how industry is responding to the 163 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: push for rights of nature. So come back for that. 164 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm Lindel Rowlins. Thank you for listening. 165 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: Damages is an original Critical Frequency production. This episode was 166 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: written and reported by The Rollins. Our editor and senior 167 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 2: producer is Sarah Ventry. Sound designed by Ray Pang, mixing 168 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: and mastering by Mark Bush. Our fact checker is Woo 169 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: dan Yan. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton of 170 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: the First Amendment Project. Artwork for the show is drawn 171 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: by Matt Fleming. Our theme song this season is Bird 172 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: in the Hand by Fornown. If you like the show, 173 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: please remember to rate and review it wherever you're listening 174 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: and share it with your friends. Thanks a lot, and 175 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: we'll see you next time.