1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome into the latest version of All Ball, the 2 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: All Basketball Podcast. I am going to the promo a 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: couple of things from First, the Doug Outland Show, which 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: runs daily three to six East from time twelve to 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: three Pacific on Fox Sports Radio or the I Heart 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: Radio app. Can follow me on Twitter. We tweet out 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: stuff that and you can listen to pods from the 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: show as well. Uh. Secondly, Secondly, next week on the 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: All Ball Podcast, we'll have a deep dive in with 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: a longtime friend of mine, a guy who I admire greatly. 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: He's the head coach of the Washington Wizards. Scotty Brooks, 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: is gonna join us way to hear his story. Things 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: that you may not know about Scott Brooks, like, uh, 14 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: like what he actually had to do to earn money 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: when he was a kid, how he got to to TCU, 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: who he played with the TCU, how he ultimately ended 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: up at you see your vine as a player. And 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: then we got some minor league stories for you. I 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: got a t up. I want to ask him about 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: finally making the seventies sixers, living with Charles Barkley early 21 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: on his NBA career, all the way until playing for 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: uh for a World championship and playing with the with 23 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the Houston Rockets and a chema. Lie you on what 24 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: it's like to start games in the NBA, from going 25 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: as a CB a guy back in the day all 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: the way to becoming a head coach with the Oklahom 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: City Thunder and now the Washington Wizards. We've got stories 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: about k D. I gotta ask him about I've been 29 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: asking about John Wall's picture with you is a basketball? 30 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: So much to get into Scott Brooks next week on 31 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: the All Ball Podcast. It may be so good that, 32 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: like this one will have to cut it up into 33 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: the two parts. In the meantime, let's stag back in 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: with Ja Billis. If you missed last week, we got 35 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: some of some of the early j Billis life. I 36 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: found it fascinating to hear his dad wasn't a basketball guy. 37 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: Um dad was blue collars. Mom said so many different 38 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: interesting things, or both his mom's saying like, hey, if 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: you're complaining about getting getting the basketball, why don't you 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: His dad said like, why don't you go get it 41 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: when they miss? You know, very matter of fact, and 42 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: the idea that he went to play for Mike Sachowski 43 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: before Mike Chazchewski was Coach K. You know, it was 44 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: America's basketball coach. And the reason why he turned down 45 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: so many other historic programs was he just felt like 46 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: Coach K was honest. You know. He just felt like 47 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: Coach K was a guy who who did what he 48 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: said and said what he did and and and that 49 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: struck him. Also the talk of you know, the tales 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: have him playing against Ralph Sampson, playing against Michael Jordan's 51 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: and also we talked to him about playing against Lenn Bias. 52 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: What type of player Lenn Bias was? All Right, So 53 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: the stuff with Jay was so good we cut it 54 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: up into two parts. And look, some of you have 55 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: been waiting for me and j bill Is to go 56 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: at it head to head about amateurism, and in this 57 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: podcast youll here's some of at At the end, I'll 58 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: kind of circle back and give you a couple of 59 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: my thoughts. I didn't want to make it an all 60 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: outward and argument over two sides. We simply agree to disagree. 61 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: You'll hear Jay side of it, You'll hear a little 62 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: bit of my side of it. You can discuss with 63 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: me on social media and what you think So we'll 64 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: set up ja on uh the n c A. Does 65 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: he hate the n c A, does he value the 66 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: n c A. Why he believes payers players should be 67 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: outright paid paid for their likeness. Should they be able 68 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: to go straight from high school to the NBA or 69 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: should they have to go to college? Plus, I'm gonna 70 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: ask him the question that I really want to know, 71 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: which is he got all these different coaches that coach 72 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: the Duke played a Duke. Pick one? Who should replace 73 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: Mike Chazewski as Duke's next head Ben's basketball coach? All right, 74 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: let's dig into it. Here's j Billis in the All 75 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: Ball podcast. Okay, um uh, you mentioned Jordan's and Sam Perkins. 76 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: People forget how how good a plot greater college players 77 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: say and Perkins was. They had that incredible team. When 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: you first played against Michael Jordan's, did what was there 79 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: like when you're playing against him? Did you know did 80 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: you have any sense that he was different? He was 81 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: more special than all those other talented players in the SEC? Yes, 82 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: we played. The first time that I played on the 83 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: same court with him was in pickup games. So back 84 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: back then, and I don't know what they do now. 85 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: They maybe they do the same thing. But back then 86 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: we would go to we being the Duke guys would 87 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: go to Chapel Hill for two three days and play 88 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: in their gym. They would come to our place for 89 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: two three days and playing ours and we would play 90 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: pickup games and uh. And actually the only guy that 91 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: didn't play was Perkins. Uh. He did not like playing 92 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: pickup games. And but we we when you saw him 93 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: playing those, You're like, whoever said all men are created 94 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: equal was full of it, man, because that nobody can 95 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: do this. I've never seen any that honestly do that 96 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: was I think you and I may have talked about 97 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: this when we went to dinner with our wives the summer. 98 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: Was the first time when you know, like your experience 99 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: is probably the same, like you're growing up in southern California. 100 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: You play in high school, and the more work I 101 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: put in, the better I got. And I didn't I 102 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: really didn't think that there was that that there was 103 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: a limit as to how good I was going to get. 104 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: And whoever I played against, I felt like I was. 105 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: I was just as good. And then I got to 106 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: college and played against there are three guys I played 107 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: against where I was going You know what, it doesn't 108 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: matter what I do. I'm never gonna be as good 109 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: as those guys, Sampson, Jordan's and Lynn Bias. Like those 110 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,679 Speaker 1: three guys, I was like, no, that's no, I can't. 111 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: That will never happen, Like I can't match. That didn't 112 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: mean I couldn't win in the games that we played 113 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: and I couldn't be successful. But you're like, that's a 114 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: that's another gear and I don't have that gear and 115 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: I'll never get it. I remember the Blood Deal to 116 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: come to that realization. No, I remember when the Thunder 117 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: I take to my life to a Thunder playoff game 118 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: UM and we're watching and I was watching Tony Parker, 119 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: who I marvel and I think he's one of the 120 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: more underrated players UM in the last twenty years in 121 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: the NBA. But we were watching Russell Westbrook and she's like, 122 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: could you have played in this game? And I was like, yeah, 123 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: I think I could have played in this game. But 124 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: I would have no chance against Russell Westbrook, Like literally 125 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: no chance. He's just he's just too too athletic for 126 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: and I was I was really athletic, but he was 127 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: just he had another gear. Iverson. I felt like was 128 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, some guys are quick and some guys are fast. 129 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: He was both. But he was wild and you could 130 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: you could go to him into taking shots that he 131 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: couldn't make. I remember playing against Rayound, but the guy 132 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: that jumps out to me. I played in the the 133 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: what's now the Jordan Game used to be the Magic's 134 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: Roundball Classic, and I placed Johnson Billips got hurt, so 135 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: I placed Johnson Billips. We practiced all week and Kevin 136 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: Garnett showed up the day of the game because he 137 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: was he took the s A T on a Saturday 138 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: and the game was on a Sunday, and he and 139 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: he's trying to pass the s A T to play 140 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: in college and and like, look all those guys. Uh. 141 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: Paul Pierce was on my team and he was a 142 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: roommate at A B C. D. And I remember it 143 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: was the first time I saw Vince Carter, who no 144 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: one could beat in the dunk contest. But Kevin Garnett 145 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: showed up and he was just better than everybody else. 146 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Like there was a level to which all these the 147 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: top players, the ron Mercers of the world. We're playing 148 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: Sharif Abdurahim and then Kevin Garnett without practicing at all 149 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: playing in the game. You're like, what he just he 150 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: moves like a guard only he's six ft ten, So 151 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: I I know, I know what you're talking about. Um, 152 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: what about len Bias? Like obviously you talk about formative 153 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: things in your in your life. I remember hand Gather's 154 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: death made me scared of harder rhythmia. I remember that 155 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: Magic Johnson contracting HIV made me scared of unprotected sex. 156 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: And remember len Bias made me scared of cocaine. I 157 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: didn't the Big East we would see in California on 158 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: Big Monday, the A C C. I don't remember len Bias. 159 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: What was he like? Um, he was one of the 160 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: three or four best players I ever saw at that time. 161 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: And and he's six or eight built like Superman. Um, 162 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: and guys bodies didn't look like this back then. Now 163 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: now it's a little more common because of the nutrition 164 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: and now they guy's lip weights and all that stuff. 165 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: He was a natural stud And you know, you know 166 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: better than I do, like that there are certain guys 167 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: that that are powerful leapers, that that some of the 168 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: most powerful leapers in the game just aren't good jump shooters. 169 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: Like that's those two things often don't go together. And 170 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: he was he was maybe the best leaper in the game, 171 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: especially off two ft, and then one of the best 172 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: jump shooters, like he could really shoot it and uh 173 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: and we couldn't we couldn't stop him. Um he had 174 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: forty one against us in one game and we had 175 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: good defenders and uh and he put four. I was 176 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: still won the game. That was great, But but he 177 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: was he was. I think coach Kay has actually said this, 178 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: and I would actually I would put Johnny Dawkins in 179 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: the category. But but coach had said that the three 180 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: guys that back then in the eighties that were heading 181 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: shoulders above everybody else in the league where Sampson, Jordan's 182 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: and Lynn Bias. He was unstoppable. And when he when 183 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: he got drafted by like, I thought he was the 184 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: best player, uh in in like, I would have taken 185 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: him number one, even though Brad Doherty was number one. 186 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: That turned out to be a great decision because Brad 187 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: was an unbelievable player and a great person. But I 188 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: thought Bias was the best player in our league. And 189 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: so when and I thought he was the best player 190 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: in college basketball, frankly like Walter Berry and Johnny Dawkins 191 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: shared National Player of the Year that year, but Bias 192 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: is so much better than Walter Berry wasn't funny. And 193 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: so when he died, I think he died either one 194 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: or two days after the six NBA Draft, And so 195 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: I was out in California and my mom told me 196 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: that he had passed away. I had just woken up 197 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: and she said, when Lynn Bias died, and I remember 198 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: that day. For for me, that was the equivalent of 199 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: the Kennedy assassination in my life that you know, my 200 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: parents would always Kennedy was assassinated a month before I 201 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: was born, and my parents and all their friends would 202 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: always talk about where they were when Kennedy was assassinated 203 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: and when they found out, and like, I don't think 204 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: I'll ever forget the one the feeling and to exactly 205 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: where I was and exactly what was going on when uh. 206 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: It was like, uh, the equivalent now of people saying 207 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: everybody remembers exactly where they were and where where they 208 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: were doing when eleven happened. And and that was and 209 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: even though it's totally I'm not trying to equate the things, 210 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: but that was understand type of deal. When when Len 211 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: Bias passed away? No, when when Magic? When when we 212 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: found out I was a high school freshman. I remember 213 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 1: when when Magic was going to announce that he had HIV. 214 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: I remember my high school coach Tom McClusky, al for 215 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: Dick Hard at Penn State. He called us all in 216 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: and he said, you know, um boys, you know Magic 217 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: Johnson is gonna announced he has HIV HIV SA virus. 218 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: It leads to AIDS and he's going to die from this, 219 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: and you have to take serious, you know, but unprotected sex. 220 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: I just like everybody started crying, like, I remember what 221 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: I remember that day. I so I completely and totally 222 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: get it. You were you were, you were drafting the 223 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 1: eighties six draft, but you never played for the MAVs. 224 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: Take me through what happened, what it was like back 225 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: then being drafted and then going overseas, playing in Italy 226 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: in Spain. I got drafted by Dallas. I think in 227 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: the fifth round. That was back when they were like 228 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: six or seven rounds or whatever it was. Maybe maybe 229 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: they were like eight rounds. Uh And the NBA was 230 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: probably twenty five teams at the time, maybe less than that. 231 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it's twenty four because Mark Price was a 232 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: second round pick and and he was like the pick 233 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: in the draft something like that. He and Dennis Roden 234 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: ore second round picks. I hear, um, So I got 235 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: drafted by Dallas. I went to camp. Dick Motta was 236 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: the coach and uh, and my draft class was Roy 237 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: Tarpley was the number one player, uh, taken by the maps. 238 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: You think he's taken like six overall or something. And 239 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: Parpley was another guy where he going? You know what 240 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: that dude is. Roy Tarpley was a Hall of Fame player. 241 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: If he could have kept clean on on stuff he 242 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: was doing, he would have been the Hall of Fame. Um. 243 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: But Dallas was the Pacific Division champion at the time, 244 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: so they had Rolando Blackman and Rock Parper and Mark 245 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: Guire you know, James Donaldson dead left Trump was on 246 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: the team. And I had I thought, Okay, well, if 247 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: I go in there and play really well, Uh, there 248 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: are a couple of guys. I felt like, what, I 249 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: think I'm better than these guys. And I found out 250 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: like third day at rookie camp that the Mavericks already 251 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: had thirteen guaranteed contracts and only twelve spots on the team, 252 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: and I was like, well, it doesn't matter what we 253 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: do here. You know, they're not gonna cut somebody to 254 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: put us on the bench to wave a towel around 255 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: for the for the Pacific of It and Champs. So, uh, 256 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, I went to camp I did. I thought 257 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: I played well. And then I got a contract to 258 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: go overseas and I played in Italy. And my agent 259 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: was a guy named Larry Fleisher who was the former 260 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: head of the Players Association and represented so many big 261 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: shots back then. And uh, and so he had he 262 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: had interviewed me when I was in college. Um, and 263 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: it submitted to an interview process. I actually interviewed him, 264 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: and uh, and my dad convinced me, you know, like 265 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: I was dumb enough to think that some of the 266 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: younger guys younger agents because they could devote more time 267 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: to me where the was a that's the way I 268 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: should go. And my dad said no, he said go 269 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: with Larry Flasher. He goes, I'd rather have a little 270 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: bit at his time than all of somebody else's time. 271 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: And that turned out to be really smart, because you know, 272 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: I got a great deal in Italy. I played there 273 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: my first year. I went back to training camp the 274 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: following year when John McCloud was a coach, and I 275 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: just wasn't good enough. Like I was. I was six 276 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: eight and uh, and I was a power forward in 277 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: a league where six eight power forwards aren't you know? 278 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: I wasn't quick enough to stay in front of a three, 279 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: and I wasn't big enough to hang with some of 280 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: the fours in the league. Now, could I have hung 281 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: on with a team for a little while somewhere in Yes, 282 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: I think I could have. But with the MAVs, that 283 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna happen. And they never cut me. I went 284 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: to camp three years in a row, and I was 285 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: never cut. I always went back overseas before veterans camp 286 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: was over. And so I've never I was never cut 287 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: by the by the Dallas Mavericks. And I mean, it's 288 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: kind of a weird story. But when I was when 289 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: I got into broadcasting and I was doing like a 290 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: Louisville Southern miss game or something, and I ran into 291 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: Keith Grant, who was the GM of the Mavericks. He 292 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: was he was like the equipment guy when I was there, 293 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: and uh, and he came over we were talking and 294 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: having a laugh and he said, do you know what, 295 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: You're still on our active player list, And I'm going 296 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: I am, but he goes, yeah, we've never cut you. 297 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: And I said, well, could you like trade me or 298 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: waive me or something like just wave me in the 299 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: middle of the season like im all my friends would 300 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: would love seeing that. You know, j Bill has put 301 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: on waivers in Nix or whatever it was. But I 302 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: was never cut by the Mavericks. Yeah, you could have. 303 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: You could have been part of something like trade. You know, 304 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: there's guys that aren't in the NBA. Keith dan Horne 305 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: has been part of trades even after he's done playing. 306 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: You should have hung onto that status. You could have 307 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: got money. They trade those guys and they throw some 308 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: money at him just to make the money work and 309 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: all that. That would have been a nice, nice way 310 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: to but it was. It was you know, you've been 311 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: through it and and you were a lot closer to 312 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: the NBA than I was. I was not. That's not 313 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: true the dream of yours to play. But the good 314 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: part for me was playing in Italy was was a 315 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: great thing for me because, um, you know, after going 316 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: through four years of college and I loved being a 317 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: role player on the teams I played on and with 318 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: the guys I played with, and the coach I played 319 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: for loved it. Um. But it was kind of cool 320 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: when I went to Italy and I got to be 321 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: a star again. You know, your average twenty points a 322 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: game and all that stuff, and you're among the leading 323 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: scorers in the league. That was fun again. And and 324 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: so when I quit UM playing to go be a 325 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: coach on coach k staff after the eight nine season, 326 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: like I had, I had kind of accomplished what I 327 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: wanted to again, like i'd go, Okay, you know, I 328 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: got to I got to do what I wanted to 329 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: do in the game as a player. And it made 330 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: sense to quit when I quit, because I thought I'd 331 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: played ten twelve years overseas. But but um, for some reason, 332 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: like like the ego boost of being a star again, 333 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: even though it was Italy and not the NBA was 334 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: a nice, nice thing. So I quit. I got a 335 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: I got a job offer. Um. Coach he had called 336 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: me and and and said, I got an opening on 337 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: my staff, uh, and I'd like you to to to 338 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: take it. And I had told him I wanted to 339 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: keep playing and he said that's fine, but I just 340 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: don't know that this isn't going to come around for 341 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: you again, which you know, it was a nice way 342 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: of saying like, like take this now because I'm not 343 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: going to offer this see you later. Maybe you would 344 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: have I don't know, but UM, I wounded up getting 345 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: into law school right after that, and it was Coach 346 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: Kay's idea that I do both UM and I honestly, 347 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: Doug I think he was pulling the strings on all 348 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: of it. That you know, he knew I had applied 349 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: to law school UM, and and so I think it 350 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: was all kind of part of a plan that he 351 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: had that look, you said you wanted to do this, 352 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna help you make it happen. And I told 353 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: him when I was in high school that I was 354 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 1: interested in broadcasting. I didn't know what that meant, but 355 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: he put me in touch with Duke Aumbs that were 356 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: involved in it, and I started working during the summertime, 357 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: and so he really helped me, UM kind of get 358 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: a foothold in in the broadcast industry to where I 359 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: had I had built up uh some equity, and I 360 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: learned about it and I met a bunch of people, 361 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: and I worked a bunch of great events and I 362 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: and it kind of greased the kids for me to 363 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: get into it later. And then uh, and then the 364 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: whole law school coaching thing. I don't know. I thought 365 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: I would stay in coaching, um, but it wasn't the 366 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: right thing for our family when I got when winning 367 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: and I got married, and so we just decided to 368 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: go a different direction. I started practicing law and that's 369 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: what that's what sort of led to the broadcast thing 370 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: after that. All right, we'll get around to that in 371 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: a second. You're on the staff in My favorite player 372 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: was Bobby Hurley, and I remember, I remember just being devastated, 373 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: and so many of my friends loved un l V, 374 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 1: you know, you and l V and my and this 375 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: goes back to my dad was an assistant recruit you 376 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: some at Longbe State, and you and LV used to 377 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: come in and they were bigger and badder. And my 378 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: dad coach Craig Hodges assistant in under text winner and 379 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: Craig Hodges was the best player. You see, Irvine actually 380 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: had great players, probably as good or better more pros 381 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: maybe than un l V. And they beat unlv U 382 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: and LV would always win the PC Double A and 383 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: I remember that UM National championship game and Bobby was 384 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: sick and running off to the bathroom. But what was 385 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: what was that like to be a part of it, 386 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: because there was a bit of a trend there going 387 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: back to when you were when went to the first 388 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: final four, Coach k was that Duke would kind of 389 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: exceed expectations and find a way to get to a 390 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: final four. But you guys couldn't seemingly win a final four, 391 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: win a national championship. You get to the finals in 392 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: ninety and just get annihilated. What happened? Yeah, you're right 393 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: about sort of the feeling. So my senior year in 394 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: eighty six, we won thirty seven games. That was more 395 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: games one in a single season than eight team in 396 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: the history of the game. And we were the number 397 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: one team. We got clipped by Louisville by a bucket 398 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: and we were we We thought we were better and 399 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: we thought we should have won. We didn't. And then 400 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: the ones they got to after that, maybe eight, nine, nine, 401 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: UM probably wasn't the best and UH and uh UNLV 402 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: didn't just beat us, they beat the hell out of us. 403 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: It was by thirty and it's still I think it's 404 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: still the largest margin of victory in the in in 405 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: n C Double A title game history, and it just 406 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: got away from us, and you know, the kind of 407 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: the interesting thing and I learned, you know, I learned 408 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: so much from Coach K in so many different ways. 409 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: But you know, the next year, um we wound up 410 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: facing up against UNLV in the semifinals the following year 411 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: in one and UNLV was undefeated. They had their whole 412 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: team back. I mean, it was so good, it was ridiculous. 413 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: And you know that the staff back then was was 414 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: he got at Mike Bray who is now Notre Dame, 415 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: and Tommy Amerger is now at Harvard, and I was 416 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: the g A and all the assistance were basically saying, 417 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: there's no need for us to watch the table last 418 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: year's game. You know, we're kind of thinking, why would 419 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: we show Why would we show ourselves getting bludgeoned. You know, 420 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: it was like a cat playing with a mouse in 421 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: a corner, you know, And Coach K is like, no, 422 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: we're showing it to them. We're going to show them 423 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: all the mistakes we made. And if we clean up this, 424 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: this and this, we're going to be in the game 425 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: at the end with a chance to win. And that's 426 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: where we live. We live in close games. They don't 427 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: play in any and we're going to know how to 428 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: operate and they're not. And he sold the players on 429 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: the idea, like we show He showed them everything that 430 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: they made mistakes on if we do this better, if 431 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: we eliminate this, all this stuff, and then he told 432 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: them like, we're going to be in this game at 433 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: the end and we're going to know how to act 434 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: and they're not. And and then it happened. You know, 435 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: it's it's like, it is so brilliant, sort of as 436 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: a as a I don't know what you'd call that, motivation, inspiration, 437 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: whatever it is, but prognostication. But but it was. It 438 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: was amazingly empowering for the players and even even a 439 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: guy like me sitting on the bench as an assistant 440 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: watching that. But the year before, man, when that thing 441 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: started going downhill and there was no way to stop it, 442 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: it was I don't think I've ever as helpless in 443 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: a basketball game as that. Um that was. That was 444 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: one of the worst feelings I've ever had. And because 445 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: you're you're that close to to something, you've always wanted. 446 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: And uh, I'm still not over my senior year when 447 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: we lost in the title game. I think about it 448 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: all every time we go to the Final four to 449 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: broadcast games and stuff. UM, it eats at me. And 450 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: it's so different, Like you know you've played in the 451 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: Elite eight. Uh, you know I played in the tournament before. 452 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: When you lose before the championship game, um, I mean 453 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: every loss hurts, but nothing, nothing hurts more than finishing second, 454 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: like finishing eight with that that that that you're not 455 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: as close when you finished second. It sucks. It's brutal. 456 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: And uh. And I don't I don't know that I'll 457 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: ever I don't know that i'll ever feel okay about that. 458 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I actually I'm not over to 459 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: the Elite eight and I played. I played poorly. We 460 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: all played poorly. And Florida, if you look at their roster, 461 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: they were incredible. I would I would. I Look, I 462 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: can't argue with somebody who actually played the championship game. 463 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: I would say that outside of losing in the championship game, 464 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: this the second worst loss is in the Elite eight, because, 465 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: as you know, being a part of the Final four 466 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: team is immortality, right, Like I remember, I remember we 467 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: were in Syracuse, New York, and um, Grant Wall was 468 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: following me around and he's like, look, if you win 469 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: this game, you can be on the cover of Sports 470 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: Illustrated because you've got a great story, right, And I 471 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: just I remember it. So remember waking up like thinking, 472 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna dream about cutting down the nets. I'm ana 473 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: wake up dreaming about it, and I'm gonna make it happen. 474 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna I'm just gonna make it happy, make 475 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: what I dream happened. And we we got down early, 476 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: coach got a technical foul, We got down like third team. 477 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: We came back, we tied the game up and then 478 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: Mike Miller hits a three in transition, and like that 479 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: was that. We just did not have it and we 480 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: didn't have a great game play. We didn't. It was 481 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: everybody was was involved in the in the loss. And 482 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: I remember watching them cut the net nets down, um, 483 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: and it was like you're you're You're living my destiny. 484 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: So I can't imagine what that would be like in 485 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: the National Championship game watching Purviose Ellison, never nervous purpose 486 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: cut down the nets. Yeah, I would say the Elite 487 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: eight is the second worst of the losses to the point. 488 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: I mean, and you'd think at at our age, um, look, 489 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: it's not as it's not as sharp a pain as 490 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: it was the you know, the six months afterwards, but 491 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: but it's still it's still pretty sharp. And you think 492 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: at age fifty four, you know, you kind of go, 493 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's a long time ago. But but for 494 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: some reason that that is a really hard that's a 495 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: hard game to lose. And like you're saying about the 496 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: Final four thing, you know, like to be able to 497 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: for some to be able to call yourself a champion 498 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, it's kind of a 499 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: nice thing. And and but it the funny part, Doug, 500 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: is that you know, when like I was lucky enough 501 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: to be on that staff where we're Duke one back 502 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: to back in two, so you know, I tasted sort 503 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: of the championship when the national Championship wins in those 504 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: years as as an assistant, as a grad assistant. And 505 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: it's and I think Johnny Dawkins actually had called when 506 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: he was in the NBA, called Tommy Amaker after the 507 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: after the one championship and said, I think he said 508 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: something in effect, does it does it take it away? 509 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: And and uh and Amaker said, no, it doesn't. Like 510 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: it's just different when it when you're a coach. I think, 511 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: at least from my seat, maybe it's different for Coach 512 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: K being a head coach, but but as an assistant, 513 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: it's not the same. It's not the same feeling. You 514 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: only get a couple of shots at it, maybe only 515 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: one as a player, and you know, coach like Coach 516 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: K has had forty shots at this and uh, and 517 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 1: he's going to have even more. Um. And so there's 518 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: just something, uh, something different about when you're a player 519 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: as opposed to a coach. All right, so there's two 520 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: players I want to ask you, well, actually two players 521 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: want to ask you about on those back to back teams. Um, 522 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: you added in Grant Hill, And there's I've come to 523 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: know him and I know how closer friends you you are, 524 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: your families are, UM, and there's there's incredibly special about 525 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: him as a person that I don't know if it 526 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: translates on TV. I don't know if now play now kids. 527 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: Because of the injuries, uh, the injury that he suffered 528 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: in the pros and he look he still played. There's 529 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: like forty Um, but I don't know if people understand 530 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: how breath taking a player he was. But also just 531 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: there is this regal way by which he carried himself 532 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: to which you could you could fall out of the 533 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: sky and be in a gym and watch him walk 534 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: in and go like, I don't know anything about the sport, 535 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: but that guy is different than the rest of him. 536 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: Give me, give me to to somebody who didn't doesn't 537 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: understand what made Grant Hills so special as a player, 538 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: And I know he's still special as a person. What 539 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: was it? That's a good question. The well, first of 540 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: all in the person front, even though you asked me 541 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: about the player part. Um Duke has put out a 542 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of good guys and a lot 543 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: of great guys. I should say, Um Duke's never put 544 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: out a better guy in Grand Hill. Um, he may 545 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: be the best person and best sort of full package 546 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: of person and player that's ever ever put on any 547 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: kind of uniform at Duke. And I really believe that 548 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: as a player, m Grant was like he had a 549 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: humble way of carrying himself. But but was he's the 550 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: most gifted basketball player I think to ever play a duke, 551 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: and that includes guys like Kyrie Irving and Marvin Bagley 552 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: the third and all these guys that have been been 553 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: higher picks than him, because I think Grant was like 554 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: the third pick in the draft when he came out. 555 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: I think I think it was Glenn Robinson and Jason 556 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 1: Kidd went in front of him. Um, but but Grant's 557 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: about player that duke's ever put out, ever ever produced, 558 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: and you know could handle it. He was a point 559 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: guard his senior year. Um, he could guard anybody. He's long, 560 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: he's athletic. Uh, you know, the only thing he couldn't 561 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: do when he got there, he wasn't a really good shooter, 562 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: but he became one and looked. I think we've all 563 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: seen a lot of this game and and and you 564 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: know think this player is great. That player is great. 565 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: I I really, I've researched this and I saw it 566 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: up close. Um, Grant hills first seven years in the NBA, 567 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: there's only five guys in the history of the league 568 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: that matched his numbers as far as points, rebounds, assistant 569 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: steals in the first seven years in the league. And 570 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: guys like Magic Bird Jordan's Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, guys 571 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: like that and you know, the greats of the great. 572 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: I happen to believe like he's going into the Basketball 573 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and in early September that Nate Smith 574 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: Basketball Hall of Fame. I think he's as deserving as anybody. 575 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: I look upon Grant Hill as the basketball equivalent of 576 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,479 Speaker 1: Sandy Kofax that before he was injured and his injury 577 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: almost cost him his life with the staff infection, all 578 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: the stuff he had to deal with. UM, his first 579 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: seven years in the league, he was as good as anybody, 580 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: anybody that's played. He was that good. And if he 581 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: stayed healthy, if he didn't have to deal with with 582 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: that that horrific injury, UM, he would have It would 583 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: have been no brainer on Hall of Fame that he 584 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: would have been with the sort of the mount rushmore 585 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: of of players of you know, top twenty five guys 586 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: that have ever played. I think he was that kind 587 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: of player. A right. The other side to that is 588 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: his his Christian Lightner, who played the Dream Team, had 589 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: incredible run his last two years, winning you know, back 590 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: to back national championships. But he had he had that 591 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: that different sort of edge right like I grew up. 592 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: My sister was the u C. L H here leader. 593 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: We were season ticket holders and and similarly, um Don 594 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: McClain and they played against each other had that kind 595 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: of same nastiness and edge. I mean, look, he was 596 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: kind of an asshole when he played. Both of them were, 597 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: but they were really really good to somebody who didn't understand, Like, 598 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: because you look back, look like dream Team, you start 599 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: going through all the guys you like Christian Latern Really 600 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: what was he like? Incredibly competitive and and like Christians 601 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: a good guy and he's smart and all that stuff, 602 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: But that didn't translate back then because he didn't care 603 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: as much what other people thought outside the program. He 604 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: cared what coach Kay thought, and he cared what his 605 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: family thought and all that stuff. And I think he 606 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: did care what his teammates thought, although he didn't always 607 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: convey that to them. Um he was he was just 608 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: all he cared about was was playing well and winning. 609 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: And now maybe I'm missing maybe I'm forgetting a little 610 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: thing here there, Doug, but I don't ever remember him 611 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: being outplayed. Um whether he played Shaquille O'Neal or you 612 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: name the guys he played against I don't remember anybody 613 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: out playing him and he he was that good. Uh, 614 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: And I thought, honestly, he was going to be a 615 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: much better pro. Uh. This is just my opinion, and 616 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: I don't know that that that coach k or some 617 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: other people who know him better than I do would 618 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: agree with this. But um, he didn't function very well 619 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: in a losing environment, and so when he went with 620 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: the Minnesota Timberwolves, that that he didn't do well in 621 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: that environment. But he went, he played. He played a 622 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,239 Speaker 1: long time in the league, twelve years or so, an 623 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: average like sixty in a game for his career. He 624 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: had a good career. He's an All Star one year 625 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 1: when he was with the Hawks. He just played with 626 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: crummy teams and uh. And I don't think he handled 627 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: the losing particularly well, Like he could be abrasive here 628 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: and there. But but I'm I was always a huge 629 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: fan of his and uh personally as a player, you 630 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: name it. I remember one time him. Um. There are 631 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: two things about him that that that I'll never forget. 632 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: One is so he's like six eleven and and a 633 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: great athlete. From the standpoint of like when when you 634 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: and I were kids, athlete meant that you could do 635 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of things. That didn't mean you could 636 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: just run and jump. So he could walk on his hands, 637 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: do a handstand and walk on his hands from baseline 638 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: to baseline at six eleven, like I've never seen anybody 639 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: do that. And uh. And the other part was he 640 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: and I played tennis a few times. And you know, 641 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean I grew up in Rolling Hills. You know, 642 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: we had a lot of tennis players there. So I 643 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: banged the tennis ball around a little bit. I wasn't 644 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: that good, but on a relative basis, but I could. 645 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: I could I get hit with other basketball players and 646 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: be one of the better players. And that dude could 647 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: play anything like tennis. He's really good. He's like an 648 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: expert ping pong player. Um. And he would he would 649 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: run your mother over to win. Um. And I was 650 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: always really impressed with practice. He was competitive in every drill. 651 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: You know, you know guys say they do that, are 652 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: you always here? He really was competitive in every drill 653 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,959 Speaker 1: and and really hyper aware of his teammates being competitive, 654 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: and when they weren't doing it, when they weren't living 655 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: up to what he thought they should be doing, he 656 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: let them know and I wasn't around a lot of 657 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: guys like that, and he was. He was a different 658 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: breed in that regard. Okay, So you guys went back 659 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: to back and you leave to become a lawyer. You 660 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: were a um your defense a criminal defense attorney, right. No, No, 661 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: I never. The only criminal stuff I did was pro 662 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: bone at work, I was a I started as a 663 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: bankruptcy lawyer because I could get into court right away, 664 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: and honestly, I didn't want to wait my way my 665 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: turn as a trial lawyer, as a litigator because he 666 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: kinda had to sit second chair and do a bunch 667 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: of research stuff to get, you know, get your bona fides. 668 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: So I went into bankruptcy first because I know I 669 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: could be in court all the time. And then I 670 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: switched over to uh to litigation. I was, you know, litigation, 671 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: did nothing more than essentially a trial lawyer. And so 672 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: I did commercial litigation and then wind up doing some 673 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: securities litigation before I wind up hanging it up after 674 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: seven eight years in Okay. So, but before you hung 675 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: it up, how did it come? And you mentioned that 676 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: during some summers you did some TV stuff. When was 677 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: the first time you started working for ESPN? Calling games 678 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: when I when I had practiced law. It was a 679 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: decision that my wife went in. I made that, you know, 680 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: the best thing for our family. We felt was going 681 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: to be, let's just live in one place. And and 682 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, if I, if I stayed in coaching, as 683 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, you know from your your experience with your 684 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: dad and all that you'd have to move around a lot. 685 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: And we didn't think that was the best thing for 686 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: for a family. So we just decided for us it 687 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: was the best thing to you know, I'd practiced law 688 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: and we we'd sort of move on. And I got 689 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: an offer to do radio games, uh from a guy 690 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: named George Hable called me and offered me the Duke 691 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: Radio Network to be a color commentator on the doing 692 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: the radio. And so I thought about it for a 693 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: little while, and I thought, you know what, I'm going 694 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: to do this because it's you know, the money was 695 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: next to nothing, but um, I thought it'd be fun, 696 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: and I thought maybe it could lead to something else. 697 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: And if and if I if it affected my law 698 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,959 Speaker 1: practice to where it was a problem, I could quit. 699 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: And so you know, why would I quit before I started. 700 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: Let's let's try it and if it doesn't work out, 701 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: I'll quit. And uh, and I really enjoyed it. It 702 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: was it was it was hard because of the time 703 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: it took away, but I started getting in. ESPN offered 704 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: me some games, and so I started doing games for ESPN, 705 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: just sort of here and there. And then, you know 706 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: how it is, one thing leads to another, and and 707 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, I got offered a full slate of games. 708 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: And then and then, uh, several years later he had 709 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: offered they wanted me to leave my law practice and 710 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: come full time. And uh, and so I did that. 711 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: I figured that with you know, with a law degree 712 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: and having practice law for several years in my back pocket, Um, 713 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: if I went into broadcasting, I screwed it up. I 714 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: could just start my practice and go back and start 715 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: my practice up again. It wouldn't be that hard. And 716 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: uh and it turned out to be a good decision because, uh, 717 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, as much as as I think I enjoyed 718 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: practicing law, you know, sitting at basketball games at hell 719 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: a lot more fun, No no question about it. That 720 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: there was the breakthrough I was told with you at 721 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: ESPN was when you did the women's tournament, and it 722 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: was it was your ability to do the research and 723 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: then to still be you and analyze the game, but 724 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: while doing the women's game, which showed not just a 725 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,720 Speaker 1: passion for but also an understanding of the work it took. 726 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: Do you remember what year that was that you first 727 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 1: did the women's tournament? Yeah, it was two thousand, um. 728 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: At the beginning of the year, if I remember, right, Um, 729 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, the the n C Double A had complained 730 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: to ESPN uh about having professional people doing college game, 731 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: you know, the women's tournament and so like what Nancy 732 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: Lieberman and Rebecca Lobo and the folks like that had been. Um, 733 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: they were so tied with the w n B A 734 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: and and I was told the n C Double A 735 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: didn't like it, so um, so they I was approached 736 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: by some of the higher ups at the ESPN saying 737 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: will you do the women's tournament for us? And I 738 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: had said, well, if I do that, like it's a 739 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: different game. I mean, I got to really work on 740 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: this and study it. And so I gave back some 741 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: some men's games, and I went on the road and 742 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: I started studying the women's game. And uh, and I 743 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: think you're right sort of that that that was a 744 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: step forward for me because I had done several years 745 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: of men's games, but I was doing sort of smaller 746 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: conferences and all that, and it was a bigger platform, honestly. 747 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: So when I got to the you know, I was 748 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: doing the studio with Robin Roberts and Vera Jones and 749 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 1: all that and uh and then Yukon that year beat 750 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: Tennessee in the final and it was sort of the 751 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: That was when I knew that, you know what, Yukon's 752 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: not going away, Like they got there the best team 753 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: now and they got this recruiting class coming in and 754 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: like this. And I had said after the game, like, look, 755 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: this isn't a fluke. You better get used to this 756 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: because Tennessee, like it's not Tennessee anymore. It's Yukon and 757 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: it's going to be for the foreseeable future. Like there's 758 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: been a change, There's been a sea change and it's 759 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: over um And that caused some waves when I said that. 760 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: You know, people didn't say that about Pat Summa's program, 761 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: and so, uh, you know, I think I felt confident 762 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: in what I was talking about, but I think you're right. 763 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: Like that was that was a really fun time. And 764 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: I started doing the w n B A so the 765 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: w n B A had just started, uh and I 766 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: so I was doing w NBA games too during the summer, 767 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: and my friends called it the Witness Protection League because 768 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: nobody watched it back then. But but it was really fun. 769 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: They were all NBA arenas and we threw a lot 770 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: of resources at it because we were trying to get 771 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: the NBA. UM. So it was. It was a fun 772 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 1: time and I really enjoyed. I really enjoy all that stuff. 773 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: But I only did the women's tournament that one year, 774 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: but really enjoyed it. I worked with great people. It 775 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: was really fun. Yeah, I know was it was something 776 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: I actually learned from it, which was um uh. Dave 777 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 1: revs in front of both of ours to share it 778 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: with me. He said, you know, the lesson there is 779 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: that while it might not be important to the public, 780 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: it's important to Bristol. And if you do something well 781 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: that's important Bristol, they pay attention. Like I did. I 782 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: was working with you guys in the game day guys. 783 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: One day I went on the road was the launch 784 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: of ESPN You and I did a month with ESPN 785 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: You and that kind of propelled me because no one 786 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: else was watching ESPNU. But everybody, Mark Shapiro and the 787 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: guys in Bristol were and that kind of elevated me 788 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: in their eyes, and I was I had a much 789 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: bigger slate the UH the next year. So I actually 790 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: took from that and used it in my in my 791 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: own career. Um, all right, so then to me the 792 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: best and like, look, Al McGuire probably provided the most color, 793 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure if you look back, his analysis 794 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: was nearly what some of the analysis we hear from 795 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: people like you today. UM. So you know, I know 796 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: that some people say All McGuire, I would say, the 797 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: best broadcast team anyone has ever had in college basketball. 798 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: And I've worked with some of some of the guys 799 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: that you worked with, but I think you mcdonnaugh and 800 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: Bill Rafree, whether it's it would start in Maui and 801 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: then would go through Big Monday, and look, I'm I'm 802 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: a tough critic, right, and you and I would have 803 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: it out on some like basketball battles, and I just 804 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: felt my I just want I would learn about basketball. 805 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: I learned about the teams and I would laugh, I 806 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: mean really really laugh. What was that team like to work? 807 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: Because I that's the that's the best college basketball has 808 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: ever been broadcast in my opinion, what was that? What 809 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: was saying? And I think that's more about mcdonna and 810 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: Rafree than than me. But but it was when I 811 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: the first time I got I worked with them. Uh, 812 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: somebody had the bright idea of bright idea which I 813 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: didn't think was very bright at the time of dropping 814 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: me in the middle of their broadcast team. So we 815 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: had a game at Notre Dame and uh, and Notre 816 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: Dame had a guy named Danny Miller at the time, 817 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,399 Speaker 1: I had transferred in from Maryland, if I remember right. 818 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: And so Danny Miller does something great and uh and 819 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: rafterre he screams out, it's Miller time. And you know 820 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 1: how I love hearing that. And then uh and mcdonnah says, 821 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: except on Big Monday, brought to you by bud Light. 822 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, this is I like this. 823 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: And I felt self conscious about being there because it 824 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: was like being dropped in the middle of the third 825 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: wheel in a marriage or something. And I'm sitting you, 826 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: I'm lodged between mcdonna and Raftree thinking that they can't 827 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: be happy about this, and and it was, you know, 828 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: we became I knew them both very well individually, but 829 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: we became great friends. And it was more like it 830 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: was we had fun on the air and then, but 831 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: we had more fun off the air, and all we 832 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: did was hang out and afterwards we'd go out and 833 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: and I sort of made the decision back then that 834 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: um that, no matter how painful it would be to 835 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: get up the next morning, I was not going to 836 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: say no to Bill Raftery. So if he wanted to 837 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: go out, We're going out. And I'm not gonna I'm 838 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: not gonna say, well, you know, I got an early flight, 839 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: I'm going And and there were there was more than 840 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: a few times where I had to drag myself to 841 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: the airport the next day, and I didn't feel very good, 842 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: But it was worth every every bit of pain that 843 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,280 Speaker 1: we went through, or that I went through because I couldn't. 844 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: My liver is not as strong as his. But we 845 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: had fun, and in like I learned a lot from Bill. 846 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: I think you and I are probably the same way 847 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: in this Doug. That you know, if we're accused of anything, 848 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: we're probably accused of taking taking the game a little 849 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: bit too seriously at times that that you know, we 850 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: don't have to make it. You know, it's not that 851 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: we're not sending troops to war in this thing. We 852 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: can kind of relax a little bit more. But Bill, 853 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,479 Speaker 1: Bill has a unique way, and you know him really well. 854 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: He has fun, and he takes he takes seriously. He prepares, 855 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: He prepares every bit as hard as anybody I've ever 856 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: worked with. And but he loves the game, and more importantly, 857 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: he loves the people in the game, and he loves 858 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: the experience of it being around it. And uh, and 859 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: I learned a lot from him that way, that that 860 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be fun. And we got into 861 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: this because it's fun. It doesn't mean it's not serious 862 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: at times, and all that stuff. But but we had 863 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: a blast together. And when Bill went to Fox and 864 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: left ESPN, I was really happy for him. I was 865 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: really happy for him as a friend because att and 866 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: he's in the later stages of his career. For him 867 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: to be celebrated the way he is right now is 868 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: really heartwarming for me because I think it should have 869 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: been this way all along. But but there was from 870 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: a selfish standpoint when when that meant we weren't going 871 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: to be working together, there was a sadness to it, 872 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: Uh that that I still haven't gotten quite over. Um. 873 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:07,279 Speaker 1: But but just seeing him, uh, seeing him be celebrated 874 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: this way and Emmy wins and all that stuff. Um, 875 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,240 Speaker 1: it was it was too long a time in coming, 876 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: and nobody deserves it more because there's not been a 877 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: nicer person that's worked in the broadcast industry than Bill 878 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: and there's not a more talented individual in the big 879 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: moment than Ben Sean McDonough. It was. It was an 880 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: honor and still is for me to work with Sean, 881 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: but as an honor to be in that that trio. Yeah, 882 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: I feel bad for Sean though. I feel like, you know, 883 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: the the Monday Night Football thing didn't didn't work, And 884 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: I feel like some of that was that, you know, 885 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: you parachute in there with Gruden and they didn't. He 886 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: didn't have the chemistry that he has with you or 887 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: that he had with Raft and and uh, it's it's 888 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: pretty obvious when you put the right mix together. He's 889 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: an outstanding, outstanding game color as as good as as 890 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: anybody um in the business. Um. Look, I'd be remiss 891 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: if I didn't I didn't ask you about about amateurism. 892 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: You and I have whether when we work together or 893 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 1: now Twitter or various shows, we have obviously the opposite 894 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: opinion of it. But I think many people view, um, 895 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: your approach to it as you know, one, um, you 896 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: just you don't like the n c A, and then 897 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: two you you think I don't and I don't want 898 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,439 Speaker 1: to put words in your mouth. You think that amateurism 899 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 1: is kind of a sham. Um, how would you characterize 900 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: kind of your feelings first about the n c A 901 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: and whether or not that organization is fixable. Well, first, 902 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: I don't dislike the n C double A. UM, I 903 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: dislike some of the policies, and I think there are 904 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, while some people use the term hypocrisy, I 905 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 1: use I try to use the term contray, you know, contradiction. 906 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: That there's their their contract, they contradict themselves all the 907 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 1: time with their policies. UM. My thing has always been 908 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 1: about policy rather than people. They are great people at 909 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,359 Speaker 1: the n C Double A. There's so many of them 910 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,879 Speaker 1: that that that are my friends. UM. So we may 911 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: differ on kind of like you and I made different 912 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: on an issue of policy. I don't think you and 913 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: I differ all that much. Um. You know my thing 914 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: is simply, you know, we're in a multibillion dollar business 915 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: here and in the athletes should have the same economic 916 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: rights as everybody else. And you know, the way I 917 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,879 Speaker 1: the way I have understood your position is like, look, 918 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: the athletes get enough and and uh, you know, wait 919 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: year four years and then you can go, you know, 920 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: make money later on. And and it's it's if you 921 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: don't like it, go somewhere else. You know that that 922 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 1: this is all legitimate and okay and all that. Um 923 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 1: I would, I would, and and if if I've made 924 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 1: a mistake there, you know, jump in. But what what 925 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: I would say in response is kind of you know, 926 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,720 Speaker 1: that's a great way to do it at your school. 927 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: Like if you don't believe at your school that you 928 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: should pay, then don't pay similarly with coaches or facilities 929 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: and all that. Each school makes their own decisions on 930 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,160 Speaker 1: how to do that. Like my school where I went 931 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: to school, they're paying coach k eight nine million dollars 932 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: a year. That's great. I have no problem with that. 933 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,320 Speaker 1: I just don't believe that the players should be you know, 934 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: sort of restricted to their expenses only. And while I 935 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: hear Mark Emmert and and folks within the structure say, well, 936 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: they're students, like as if that's just positive of the issue. 937 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,279 Speaker 1: And my thing is, well, wait a minute, what other 938 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: students do you tell that you can't make your fair 939 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: market value in whatever field of endeavor you choose. There's 940 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: no other student that they say, well, you're a student, 941 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: so you can't make money, and you can't you can't 942 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: be an employee the university, and you can't be. It's 943 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,319 Speaker 1: the athlete is the only one, and and so well, well, 944 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: folks say, well, hey, you know, you have a choice. 945 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: If you don't like it, don't play. I tend to 946 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: look at it that, well, why don't the schools have 947 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: the choice? They should have the choice that if you 948 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: don't want to pay, don't pay, or if you want 949 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: to pay less, pay less, or if you want to 950 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: go division to go Division two. Um, you know, I 951 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: tend to think that if you're in the Division one 952 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: arena and you're selling these players for all this money, 953 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: the players should be allowed to benefit from it. Is 954 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: there a middle ground? Can we do? Name image and 955 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: likeness all that. I'm sure they are middle grounds, but 956 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: I wind up starting with these sort of the idea 957 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,839 Speaker 1: that like Look, this is big money. This is big 958 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: money stuff. The players should be allowed to do this, 959 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: and absent a compelling reason why they shouldn't. Um, why 960 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: they Why they shouldn't be allowed to have the same 961 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 1: economic rights as literally everyone else, literally every other student, 962 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: literally every other person. Why should the athlete be the 963 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 1: only one restricted industry wide by a cartel rule? Um? 964 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: I don't get that. And but individual schools, if they 965 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 1: don't want to pay, or if some schools want to 966 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,399 Speaker 1: pay more, I'm all for it, just as I am 967 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,799 Speaker 1: with facilities and coaching salaries and travel and all that 968 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: other stuff. I say, let this schools make their own decisions. 969 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,320 Speaker 1: I see, I would. Actually I don't. I'm not necessarily 970 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,719 Speaker 1: absolutist in terms of you do it this way, or 971 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,799 Speaker 1: or you're gone, or go do something else. I do 972 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: think that one of the things is under sold is, Look, 973 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: there is the opportunity for players to come straight to 974 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,080 Speaker 1: high school, go to the G League for a year, 975 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: and then put their name in the NBA Draft. And 976 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 1: to this point, no one's done it. Right, there was 977 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: the kid that was gonna go to Syracuse, but now 978 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: he's he's not doing the G League this year. Um, anyway, 979 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: My feeling is actually it's it's almost like a salary cap, right, 980 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: Like the underrated part of the salary cap is not 981 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: that there's a ceiling, but that there's a floor. And 982 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,839 Speaker 1: I do actually think that players are compensated. They're compensated 983 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: with all of the benefits of scholarships, but also compensated 984 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,040 Speaker 1: in terms of the promotion, the kind of endless, ceaseless 985 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: promotion that UM that both of us are a part of. Right, 986 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,320 Speaker 1: that's what we do. We we educate the American public 987 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,719 Speaker 1: and frankly um their future fans on these players at 988 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,280 Speaker 1: a very young age, right when they come to college 989 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,040 Speaker 1: and being tied to the name of the university, the 990 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 1: image of the of the college coach they used kind 991 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: of that they use the branding of the school and 992 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:04,400 Speaker 1: of the coach to kind of be promoted within the sport. 993 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: And I think there's a value there. I also think 994 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,319 Speaker 1: there's a value to simply being admitted to school. Like 995 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,239 Speaker 1: I I couldn't have gotten a Notre Dame on my 996 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: own then, let alone now with my grades when I 997 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,360 Speaker 1: was in high schot no chance of getting in, especially 998 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: as as as you know, putting kids through school, how 999 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: difficult it is just to get into many of these schools. 1000 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: So I don't think it's as much cut and dry. 1001 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,400 Speaker 1: Hey you don't like it, you know, begone with you. 1002 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: I actually think there's a lot more value in for 1003 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 1: the for the floor, for the non one per centers, 1004 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,760 Speaker 1: and that's who we're protecting. Even if there's a couple 1005 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,160 Speaker 1: of guys that could make a couple of dollars off 1006 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: their name and likeness. That fair and and the other 1007 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,839 Speaker 1: part is that I look at it as I look 1008 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: at us. Hey, all these colleges they've been they're making 1009 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:50,919 Speaker 1: money off of all of their students. You talk about 1010 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: they're actually making money off of all of their students, 1011 00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,840 Speaker 1: whether it's the research they do, are simply uh, the 1012 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 1: admission that they pay for athletes are no different, friend, 1013 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: and making money off of students is only we're only 1014 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 1: more aware of what they make off the students because 1015 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: of the TV rights, were not aware of what they 1016 00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,400 Speaker 1: make off of the grants and the other things that 1017 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,799 Speaker 1: they make off of the research of the students that 1018 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 1: isn't as publicized. Yeah, those are those are fair points. 1019 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: But I would argue that your points on the value side, 1020 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,320 Speaker 1: when when you say Okay, they're they're getting this value 1021 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: in that value and all that those are off fair points. 1022 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: But but to me, my argument would be, well, if 1023 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,440 Speaker 1: they're so valuable, let let those things stand on their 1024 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,040 Speaker 1: own the marketplace, because you could certainly make the same 1025 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,360 Speaker 1: argument that you know, coaches are allowed the same platform 1026 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,359 Speaker 1: and have all these other you know, they get all 1027 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: these other benefits from working in this industry, and they 1028 00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't be as coveted there, you know, the one percent 1029 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't be as coveted, or those outside the one percent 1030 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,359 Speaker 1: wouldn't be as coveted on the NBA level, But yet 1031 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 1: they're making millions of dollars because the college market is 1032 00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,320 Speaker 1: its own separate and distinct markets. So one's value in 1033 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: the NBA is not is not reflective of one's value 1034 00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 1: in the college market. And your point about you know 1035 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: other students, uh, and and you know they're having money 1036 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,720 Speaker 1: made off of them. They're not restricted by an industry 1037 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,960 Speaker 1: wide rule. So every other student there their their subject 1038 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: only to the rule of their university. Um, there's no 1039 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: industry wide rule that that keeps everybody from from being 1040 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,120 Speaker 1: paid above a certain level. And I hear you on 1041 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,120 Speaker 1: the like when you say that that you know, you 1042 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 1: feel that the players are compensated. Well, I agree with 1043 00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,440 Speaker 1: that they are compensated, but it's capped. So on one 1044 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 1: hand they say they're students, they're not employees. But then 1045 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,719 Speaker 1: on another hand we make the argument that that they 1046 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 1: are compensated. Look at what they're getting, um, and they 1047 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: do get things, but really what they get more than anything, 1048 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 1: is they get limited and no other student is limited 1049 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,399 Speaker 1: in any regard across the board, and so like, look, 1050 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: it's a fundamental difference that we have, and I don't 1051 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: think it's I don't think it's any sort of craziness 1052 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,600 Speaker 1: on either person's side, Like I don't look at it 1053 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,600 Speaker 1: that argument, Like I have this argument with Rees Davis 1054 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: every once in a while. He'll say, now, at the 1055 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 1: end of the day, it is a choice, Like the 1056 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: players have a choice. I don't happen to agree with them. 1057 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: I don't think when you have a when you have 1058 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: a collusive cartel restriction within a market, that that's a 1059 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,320 Speaker 1: choice at all. It's a false choice. I'm always asking, 1060 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,960 Speaker 1: like why is the choice being put on the athlete? 1061 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,520 Speaker 1: Why isn't the choice on the part of the university, 1062 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 1: Like why can't Why isn't the university choosing to pay 1063 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,359 Speaker 1: or not? And how much you know they don't have 1064 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,080 Speaker 1: that choice. That choice is taken away from them or 1065 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: they've given away in in colluding together to limit athletes. 1066 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,759 Speaker 1: And I get why they do it. I get why 1067 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,440 Speaker 1: they make the arguments they're making because they can keep 1068 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: all the money and they don't want to pay. I 1069 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: don't want to pay my employees, Like we have people 1070 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,839 Speaker 1: that work on our house. I don't want to pay 1071 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 1: them if I don't have to. But you have to, 1072 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,840 Speaker 1: and it's the right thing to do. And if this 1073 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,240 Speaker 1: wild run like Division two or Division three, you wouldn't 1074 00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: hear anything from me. Um. But but it's not. It's 1075 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: a it's a big business. Will the world collapse if 1076 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: this goes on this way? No, But I don't think 1077 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,920 Speaker 1: it would collapse either. If you know, if if Jeffrey 1078 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,120 Speaker 1: Kessler in the Jenkins case, if Jenkins wins in in 1079 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,239 Speaker 1: in California in the Ninth Circuit in the case that's 1080 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: going to trial soon, and the n C double A 1081 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: is forced to allow pay, you know, I don't think 1082 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:40,839 Speaker 1: the world's going to spin off its access. I think 1083 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna do just fine. And I'll leave you with 1084 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: this one on the on the unless you want to 1085 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,680 Speaker 1: keep talking about certain things. But when I was in 1086 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: college in the eighties, if I had gone to a 1087 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,200 Speaker 1: Duke alumni event and said, you know what, someday, you know, 1088 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 1: coach k was probably making when I was playing no 1089 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: more than a hundred thousand dollars. If I had said 1090 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,680 Speaker 1: to the all the Duke alums back then at one 1091 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:04,680 Speaker 1: of these alumni events, you know, someday we're going to 1092 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,520 Speaker 1: pay him million bucks a year, they would have said, Nope, 1093 00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,000 Speaker 1: never happened. That's not what college sports is about. Will 1094 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 1: never do that. That's not Duke. And they're doing it, 1095 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 1: and they're consuming it in eleven and they fly around 1096 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:22,000 Speaker 1: a private planes, they have gigantic facilities. It's professional in 1097 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: every way, and I have zero problem with that's great. 1098 00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: But the stuff they said that they would never do, 1099 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,280 Speaker 1: they're doing. And while everybody says like everything a crumble, 1100 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,680 Speaker 1: you're not saying this, but every you know, the cub A, 1101 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,919 Speaker 1: does say this that demand for the game would would 1102 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,080 Speaker 1: diminish if the players were provided more than if they 1103 00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,560 Speaker 1: were paid. And I don't think there's any reason to 1104 00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,520 Speaker 1: believe that. I don't know any reasonable economists that agrees 1105 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,120 Speaker 1: with that, and everything else that college sports does flies 1106 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 1: in the face of that argument. We'd be just fine 1107 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,960 Speaker 1: if the players were paid. Um I don't. I don't. 1108 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,760 Speaker 1: I don't believe that for one second. But but reasonable 1109 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: minds can differ on these things, and I don't have 1110 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,319 Speaker 1: any problem with what somebody sees it differently than I do. 1111 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,000 Speaker 1: Um Uh, My my fear is not whether or not 1112 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,320 Speaker 1: they pay him or not. I do have a legit 1113 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 1: concern about the state of the game. It appears that 1114 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,239 Speaker 1: the NBA is going to go back to the you know, 1115 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: you can come straight at a high school. It appears 1116 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: that seems to be a formality. And as much as 1117 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 1: there are a couple of kids who can kind of 1118 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,439 Speaker 1: make the jump and within a couple of years, um uh, 1119 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: you know be good enough. You and I both know 1120 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: that if there's five that can make it, there's fifty 1121 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:43,280 Speaker 1: five or so that think they can make it. Um I. 1122 00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,840 Speaker 1: You combine that with the fact that every game is 1123 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,840 Speaker 1: on TV my network, your network, the network. Both of 1124 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:50,920 Speaker 1: us used to spend some time with the its CBS 1125 00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 1: they they broadcast games, NBC has some it's it's kind 1126 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,239 Speaker 1: of been polluted. There's games on every day. There's nothing 1127 00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: special about a TV game like there used to be, 1128 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,439 Speaker 1: like Big Monday. You to be it. You're on Big Monday, 1129 00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,080 Speaker 1: You're on National TV. Vital Is there a billises there 1130 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: that was it, that was the biggest game. It's not 1131 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,160 Speaker 1: as much that way. There's more NBA games on now, 1132 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,239 Speaker 1: so even your big Saturday night games which used to 1133 00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,919 Speaker 1: be it. There's also you know, on ABC, you've got 1134 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,240 Speaker 1: an NBA basketball. I am concerned about the future of 1135 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: college basketball. You know, a lot of college basketball coaches 1136 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,200 Speaker 1: want the baseball rule stay stay for three years, go 1137 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: straight at high school, stay for three years. My problem is, 1138 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,200 Speaker 1: doesn't that make college basketball college baseball where where people 1139 00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 1: don't really care nearly as much. That's that's my concern 1140 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,520 Speaker 1: with the state of game, even more so than whether 1141 00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:39,200 Speaker 1: or not we pay players. Yeah, and that's legit um. 1142 00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:41,840 Speaker 1: And I do think at least in my years in 1143 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,360 Speaker 1: the game, we have become in large measure for the 1144 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:49,000 Speaker 1: rank and file UH sports fans out there, We've become 1145 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,080 Speaker 1: basically a one or two month sport, and you know, 1146 00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: we're never going to be able to compete with college 1147 00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,240 Speaker 1: football at the NFL. As long as this train keeps 1148 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: running down the tracks the way it is, maybe concussions change. Uh, 1149 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,200 Speaker 1: I mean I don't. I don't think concussions are you know. 1150 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,080 Speaker 1: So this concussion issue is gonna greatly threaten the NFL 1151 00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 1: because it's professional, but it's an existential problem for college 1152 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 1: football because I don't see how the n c double 1153 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:17,760 Speaker 1: a can if if this concussion stuff comes out the 1154 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,560 Speaker 1: way I think it will, where normal contact in a 1155 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,640 Speaker 1: football game can is going to be proven to lead 1156 00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:29,720 Speaker 1: to brain injury, that that college can say with a 1157 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,280 Speaker 1: straight face that that for money, we are going to 1158 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,840 Speaker 1: scramble the brains that we're supposed to be educating. So 1159 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 1: does basketball do better as a result. I don't. I don't. 1160 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:39,760 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. But we can't 1161 00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,600 Speaker 1: compete with football right now, and I don't think we 1162 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,000 Speaker 1: should worry about it. Um. The problem I have, Doug 1163 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 1: is that you know, I think you and I are 1164 00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,600 Speaker 1: the same in this that you know, I believe in education. 1165 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,720 Speaker 1: I think the best thing for any young person to 1166 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,120 Speaker 1: stay in college as long as they can, and not 1167 00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:01,200 Speaker 1: for basketball or whatever sport. And if they do leave 1168 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,040 Speaker 1: that they should come back and they should be welcomed back, 1169 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 1: and we should encourage them to come back because it's important. 1170 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,640 Speaker 1: And for me, I think the I think sort of 1171 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,680 Speaker 1: the n C double A attitude comes off as being 1172 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: if you don't want to do it our way, then 1173 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,760 Speaker 1: be off with you, and we don't care. And you know, 1174 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,000 Speaker 1: sort of this blaming the one and done rule for 1175 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: all of our problems, whether it's the FBI thing or 1176 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,680 Speaker 1: you name it, I think is wrong that one and 1177 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,520 Speaker 1: done is not the blame for all this stuff. And 1178 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,960 Speaker 1: if we if we get rid of the one that 1179 00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:37,760 Speaker 1: we if the NBA gets rid of the one and 1180 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,360 Speaker 1: done rule and college players can go out of high 1181 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,720 Speaker 1: school again like they did, you know, from to oh 1182 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,040 Speaker 1: five whatever it was, um, we're still gonna have one 1183 00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: and done players because we've got all these players reclassing, 1184 00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 1: so they're they're just going to reclass and get into 1185 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,880 Speaker 1: college earlier and skip their senior high school and go 1186 00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: to college and still be gone after one year. So 1187 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,040 Speaker 1: we're still going to have all these same problems because 1188 01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,040 Speaker 1: the NBA is not going to put in as far 1189 01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,680 Speaker 1: as I know, there's no appetite for them to put 1190 01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,360 Speaker 1: in a two year rule or the baseball rule that's 1191 01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,600 Speaker 1: not going to happen because the player, the players association 1192 01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,000 Speaker 1: will never agree to it. And this stuff I want 1193 01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,160 Speaker 1: to wait and see how it comes out. But this 1194 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,800 Speaker 1: stuff we're with USA Basketball and the NBA collaborating on, 1195 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,960 Speaker 1: you know, picking the best players and sort of you know, 1196 01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,360 Speaker 1: these these the model of what you know, these European academies, 1197 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,520 Speaker 1: especially in soccer, we seem to be headed that way. 1198 01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,760 Speaker 1: What is that going to do to the player that's 1199 01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,600 Speaker 1: just outside of that cut line? You know, are they 1200 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,280 Speaker 1: going to say, wait a minute, these guys don't know 1201 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,200 Speaker 1: how good I am, I'm leaving and they make a mistake. 1202 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,560 Speaker 1: You know, are we gonna are we gonna welcome them back? 1203 01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:45,480 Speaker 1: How are we going to take care of all this stuff? 1204 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,600 Speaker 1: And what are we gonna do with who's going to 1205 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,920 Speaker 1: be in charge of these players? And what's going to 1206 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,760 Speaker 1: keep colleges from hiring them? You know, we say we 1207 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: don't like the AU guys and we want to get 1208 01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,200 Speaker 1: it back into the high schools. Where do you think 1209 01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:00,920 Speaker 1: the you guys are not you? But where do you 1210 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,160 Speaker 1: think that you guys are gonna go? They're gonna go 1211 01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,760 Speaker 1: to high school? And where do you think the shoot. 1212 01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:07,960 Speaker 1: If the shoe companies aren't sponsoring AU team, So who 1213 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,440 Speaker 1: do you think they're gonna sponsor sponsor to high schools? 1214 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,600 Speaker 1: And we're going to go right back, and we're gonna 1215 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 1: have the same system in a in a in sort 1216 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,280 Speaker 1: of a different time frame, and we're not going to 1217 01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,520 Speaker 1: stop the flow of money. Um, I just don't believe 1218 01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:24,280 Speaker 1: that can happen. The money is kind of like that 1219 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,880 Speaker 1: line from Jurassic Park where Jeff Goldblum's character says life 1220 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,520 Speaker 1: finds a way and money will find a way. And uh, 1221 01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,880 Speaker 1: and I really believe that. I don't mean to sound 1222 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,680 Speaker 1: that cynical about it, but I just don't. I don't 1223 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,800 Speaker 1: think we're going to make a couple of changes from 1224 01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 1: Condoleeza Rice's commission and all of a sudden we're going 1225 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:45,760 Speaker 1: to figure this out. I just don't think it's going 1226 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,120 Speaker 1: to work that way. We've had this going on a 1227 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,120 Speaker 1: long time. Like people cheated when I was in school, 1228 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:55,560 Speaker 1: nobody was eligible. When I played strictly, somebody took something. 1229 01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,160 Speaker 1: Everybody took something, And uh, and I don't think there 1230 01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,600 Speaker 1: are very many play is honestly, very many good players 1231 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:05,000 Speaker 1: that are eligible now. Um, these rules are impossible to 1232 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,680 Speaker 1: live by uh in in in a normal society with 1233 01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:13,160 Speaker 1: normal human behavior, they're impossible. And we're fooling ourselves if 1234 01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,960 Speaker 1: we think that any team that's won a national championship 1235 01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,720 Speaker 1: and played in the final four and all that didn't 1236 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,600 Speaker 1: have an ineligible player on their roster. They all have 1237 01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,240 Speaker 1: and uh and we'd be foolish to think otherwise. Yeah, 1238 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,880 Speaker 1: I use a different Jurassic Park reference. I reference raptors. 1239 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,000 Speaker 1: I feel like coaching high school and college players is 1240 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,480 Speaker 1: they're like raptors. Remember when they explained that every day 1241 01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:38,360 Speaker 1: they test a different part of the fence, right, And 1242 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,480 Speaker 1: that's that's what it's like. The one that's it's like 1243 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:43,680 Speaker 1: to raise kids, right, They every day they test you, 1244 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:45,560 Speaker 1: but they test a different part of the fence. They learn, 1245 01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,600 Speaker 1: they learn right that they do big a pile of 1246 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:55,320 Speaker 1: feces around as those of those dinosaurs did. Last thing. 1247 01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,800 Speaker 1: You've been more than gracious with your time. Um, what 1248 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:00,960 Speaker 1: else do you want to do? Like you you've done 1249 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,120 Speaker 1: a lot. You're in your early fifties. Your kids are 1250 01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,040 Speaker 1: now going to be often as you and your wife. 1251 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,080 Speaker 1: You guys, we shared a dinner. It was it was 1252 01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:13,160 Speaker 1: great Wendy's incredible. Um, but now you you I don't 1253 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,760 Speaker 1: know what you did to get her, but it's probably illegal. Yes, 1254 01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:19,880 Speaker 1: it actually it actually is. I'll give you, I'll give 1255 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,560 Speaker 1: you the substance that sometime offline. Um, but but what 1256 01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,040 Speaker 1: there's been talk of, Hey, did you want to head 1257 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:30,120 Speaker 1: up college basketball? Um? You did, coach, You've been a lawyer, 1258 01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,560 Speaker 1: You've broadcasted n ci A tournament games, the top guy 1259 01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 1: at you you have your pick of games at ESPN. 1260 01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,680 Speaker 1: What what you got forty years you left here at 1261 01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,360 Speaker 1: least on this soil. What else you want to do? 1262 01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,240 Speaker 1: That's a good question. I've not really thought that way 1263 01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,440 Speaker 1: in a long time. Um. I can tell you my 1264 01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,600 Speaker 1: at my age now I'm fifty four, My kids are 1265 01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,960 Speaker 1: just about to get my youngest out of college. This 1266 01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,360 Speaker 1: this uh, this may um. My my biggest focus is 1267 01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:00,960 Speaker 1: that my wife, if it gets to do what she 1268 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,480 Speaker 1: wants to do. Um. She's put a lot of time 1269 01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:06,040 Speaker 1: into doing what other people want to do, whether it's 1270 01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,360 Speaker 1: me or our kids, and so whatever she wants to do, 1271 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,400 Speaker 1: that's going to be priority number one. Um. Like on 1272 01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,280 Speaker 1: the front of the game, like I enjoy the heck, 1273 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:17,959 Speaker 1: like like you do enjoy the heck out of my job. 1274 01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:21,360 Speaker 1: I can't imagine leaving it. That's pretty low stress and 1275 01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:23,640 Speaker 1: it's all kinds of fun. The only stress I have 1276 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 1: is travel. Um. But I've always wanted to help and 1277 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,200 Speaker 1: I've always you know, every time there's been a committe 1278 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:32,680 Speaker 1: You want me to sit on a committee, I'll sit 1279 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:33,960 Speaker 1: on it. You want me to do that, I'll do it. 1280 01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,800 Speaker 1: You want me to show up, I'll show up. Um. 1281 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,720 Speaker 1: So if if there's a legitimate thing that I could 1282 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,720 Speaker 1: do to help the game, I'll do it. Uh. You know, 1283 01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I hear this commissioner talk. I don't think that's ever 1284 01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,919 Speaker 1: going to happen, but but I will, like if if 1285 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,440 Speaker 1: if the n C double a structure, uh, if the 1286 01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 1: game anywhere in the game, if if I can help, 1287 01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,120 Speaker 1: I am willing to help. Um, but I'm not looking 1288 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:02,560 Speaker 1: to uh sort of get into another job where you know, 1289 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm an NBA GM or something like like, I'm not 1290 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,320 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not Jones. And for that kind of thing, 1291 01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,720 Speaker 1: I will never say never as to any opportunity because 1292 01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,040 Speaker 1: I think it, you know, you never know, like I 1293 01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,760 Speaker 1: think I've always felt like, uh, in whatever job you're in, 1294 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:22,880 Speaker 1: like at some point, we are all going to get 1295 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,600 Speaker 1: kicked to the curb, and very few people get to 1296 01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:29,280 Speaker 1: walk away from whatever they're doing, uh, you know, sort 1297 01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,439 Speaker 1: of at the highest level. And so like I'm I'm all, 1298 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,520 Speaker 1: I fully understand that maybe maybe tomorrow, maybe next week. 1299 01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,080 Speaker 1: I have no idea, but I'm gonna get kicked to 1300 01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,440 Speaker 1: the curb. And I feel like I can do other 1301 01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:44,640 Speaker 1: things if I do. If I get kicked to the curb, 1302 01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:47,360 Speaker 1: I'll figure some out. But right now I'm enjoying what 1303 01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,600 Speaker 1: I'm doing and I'm not looking around. And I've always 1304 01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:52,760 Speaker 1: felt like the behavior, the best way to get the 1305 01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:54,440 Speaker 1: best way to get a job, to do the job 1306 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:56,320 Speaker 1: you have, and I've been doing the job I have 1307 01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:59,200 Speaker 1: and I like it. So I'm not really looking. But 1308 01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:01,200 Speaker 1: you're quite and about, you know, kind of what do 1309 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,040 Speaker 1: you want to I'm willing to. I'm willing to help 1310 01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,560 Speaker 1: in whatever capacity as much as little as people in 1311 01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 1: charge may need, and so I'm I'm completely open to that, 1312 01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,400 Speaker 1: but I'm not I'm not looking for it. Okay, um, 1313 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,240 Speaker 1: I said that was my last one. But since you're 1314 01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,400 Speaker 1: looking to help, let's say Coach K calls you up 1315 01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,280 Speaker 1: in the phone. He says, I need you to come 1316 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,600 Speaker 1: down to Derm's very very important to come down. He says, 1317 01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,200 Speaker 1: all right, I get this list here. I got Bobby, 1318 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,000 Speaker 1: I got Tommy, I got Doc, I got Woe Joe 1319 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,240 Speaker 1: of Collins. Quinn's doing an amazing job with the Jazz. 1320 01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I would not discussed enough is how good 1321 01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,560 Speaker 1: a coach Quinn Snyder has become. But I just saw 1322 01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,240 Speaker 1: him a couple of days ago. He's as great as 1323 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,760 Speaker 1: Brad Stevens is. Um, I'm not sure he's any better 1324 01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:49,960 Speaker 1: than Quinn Snyder. I honestly, I'm not sure I believe 1325 01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,400 Speaker 1: he is. I think I went to the among the 1326 01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:54,760 Speaker 1: young coaches, he's at the top of the game with anybody. 1327 01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:56,720 Speaker 1: I went to the I went to the Clippers series 1328 01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:58,800 Speaker 1: two years ago and they beat the Clippers in seven, 1329 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:00,920 Speaker 1: and I went to two different games. I sat there 1330 01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,160 Speaker 1: with Colin Coward to call mine. I was like, Quinn 1331 01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,160 Speaker 1: Sneiner is a hellaciously good basketball coach. They get exactly 1332 01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,880 Speaker 1: what they want in every key situation. And then you've 1333 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,520 Speaker 1: got people who just who got his got another job 1334 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,600 Speaker 1: with pitt Um. Who's the guy who should be the guy? 1335 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:18,600 Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I'm I'm gonna sound like 1336 01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:20,680 Speaker 1: I'm dodging it, but but I don't think I am. 1337 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't know because I don't know how much longer 1338 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:27,640 Speaker 1: coach is going to go. I think, Doug, if you'd 1339 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:29,600 Speaker 1: asked me this five years ago, like how much longer 1340 01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:31,440 Speaker 1: is coach gonna go? I would have said, well, you know, 1341 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:34,960 Speaker 1: another five years. And and I feel like it's going 1342 01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:37,960 Speaker 1: to be another five years from now. Um, I think 1343 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 1: the only thing that gets him out of basketball is 1344 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,240 Speaker 1: going to be a health problem. Um that he's I 1345 01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,520 Speaker 1: went on that trip that they took to Canada um 1346 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,720 Speaker 1: in in in early August or August thirteenth or whatever 1347 01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:55,479 Speaker 1: it was, and and his energy level is really high. 1348 01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,080 Speaker 1: But the difference this year is he can move. He 1349 01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: was out on the core coaching, and I haven't seen 1350 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,480 Speaker 1: a move like that in in easily ten years. I mean, 1351 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:07,560 Speaker 1: he was all over the court and he was not 1352 01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,720 Speaker 1: like that the last two three years. Um, you know, 1353 01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,760 Speaker 1: I think I think this is right, Like from April. 1354 01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,240 Speaker 1: I think I read this somewhere in April too. Now 1355 01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:21,400 Speaker 1: he's at six different surgeries and but he's healthy now 1356 01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,160 Speaker 1: and physically healthy, mentally, health, you name it. He's in 1357 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: a great spot. UM So, like all the guys you named, 1358 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,120 Speaker 1: whether it's Tommy Amaker, Johnny Dawkins, I I don't think 1359 01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,920 Speaker 1: Quinn Snyder is going to leave the NBA, but who knows, 1360 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,840 Speaker 1: who knows what would happen. Um, that's going to be. 1361 01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:40,960 Speaker 1: I don't think this is hyperbole, and I don't think 1362 01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,519 Speaker 1: it's coming from like this deep seated you know, Duke 1363 01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,680 Speaker 1: Blue running through veins of mine or all that. I 1364 01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:50,360 Speaker 1: think replacing coach k is going to be the toughest 1365 01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:52,680 Speaker 1: act to follow in the history of college sports and 1366 01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:57,080 Speaker 1: maybe maybe up there in the history sports, like he's 1367 01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:59,240 Speaker 1: been doing this at that school for I think this 1368 01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,360 Speaker 1: is a year at nine and all of it has 1369 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:06,280 Speaker 1: been on television, all of it Like John Wooden didn't 1370 01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:10,280 Speaker 1: play on television like this, and Bear Bryant didn't play 1371 01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,680 Speaker 1: on television like this. Um. I even think it's going 1372 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,080 Speaker 1: to be a harder act to follow than Saban. As 1373 01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:18,599 Speaker 1: great as Saban has been, maybe the best football coach 1374 01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,439 Speaker 1: ever in college and and arguably in in in you know, 1375 01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:24,080 Speaker 1: you can put them up with any NFL coach. I 1376 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,519 Speaker 1: don't know, but I think that's gonna be the hardest 1377 01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,320 Speaker 1: act to follow. Ever, and uh, and I don't know 1378 01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:31,120 Speaker 1: that who i'd wish that on. I think it's going 1379 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,840 Speaker 1: to be a really really hard, hard deal. But but 1380 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,040 Speaker 1: there are a lot of good candidates and I don't know, honestly. 1381 01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,200 Speaker 1: Last thing, I don't know that I would limit it 1382 01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:44,000 Speaker 1: to duke people because you know, you've seen this every 1383 01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:48,679 Speaker 1: bit as much as I have. Like the the icons 1384 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:53,040 Speaker 1: that are being replaced and have been replaced in college basketball, 1385 01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,840 Speaker 1: they weren't from the family that they created. So why 1386 01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,800 Speaker 1: did the next game from the family just getting really 1387 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:03,280 Speaker 1: best guy? Well? Roy was I Roy is the one 1388 01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:06,519 Speaker 1: guy and he's and he's finally and look it took 1389 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:08,479 Speaker 1: him a while to you know, to get around to that. 1390 01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,559 Speaker 1: But they bought Roy home and that clearly has worked. 1391 01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:16,679 Speaker 1: And that's that's a good point. But that's an extraordinary happening. 1392 01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,519 Speaker 1: I unders I understand. I understand. That's that's like the outlier, 1393 01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:23,240 Speaker 1: isn't it, Like, well, you sit, if we if we 1394 01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:25,760 Speaker 1: had you might have had a you know, Gene Stallings, 1395 01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, comes from the Bear Bryant tree and wins 1396 01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:30,240 Speaker 1: the national championship. But it wasn't like he was there 1397 01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:34,759 Speaker 1: that long. You don't have icon replacing icon that often, 1398 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,559 Speaker 1: that's an extraordinary happening. And uh, and you know somebody's 1399 01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:41,920 Speaker 1: got to take the job after coach k But man, 1400 01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:43,880 Speaker 1: that is gonna be. Uh, that's going to be a 1401 01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:47,200 Speaker 1: bear of a task. And uh and look, I know 1402 01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:48,720 Speaker 1: there are people that are up to it and they'll 1403 01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,240 Speaker 1: do great, but man, that's a that's gonna be that 1404 01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:55,840 Speaker 1: is going to be a tough act to follow. Um. 1405 01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,599 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how thankful I am to one 1406 01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:00,519 Speaker 1: have gotten to hang out with you and the next 1407 01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:02,760 Speaker 1: next year you're gonna allow us to pick up the 1408 01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:06,280 Speaker 1: tab when you're in our our hometown. But and then 1409 01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:08,400 Speaker 1: all the time you spent with us tonight, I really 1410 01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:12,160 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. And I'm happy to call you a friend. 1411 01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:14,599 Speaker 1: And I can't say how much I appreciate the time 1412 01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,680 Speaker 1: do you spend with us year on this podcast? Well 1413 01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:18,639 Speaker 1: that's a deal, brother, Looking forward to it, and please 1414 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,240 Speaker 1: tell Angie we said hello, al right, but we'll see 1415 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:23,519 Speaker 1: you down the road in college basketball season. And thanks 1416 01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:25,880 Speaker 1: for being our guests. Looking forward to it. Thanks Doug. 1417 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,479 Speaker 1: That's j Billis, of course of ESPN, their lead college 1418 01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,560 Speaker 1: basketball analyst. I could give you wrap ups or I 1419 01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,360 Speaker 1: could I could sit here and point to things. I'll 1420 01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,720 Speaker 1: allow you to tweet about it, obviously breaking it down 1421 01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:41,519 Speaker 1: into two different parts because of its length. I hope 1422 01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:43,760 Speaker 1: you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Two 1423 01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,800 Speaker 1: guys from similar sort of area, different sort of backgrounds, 1424 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:50,280 Speaker 1: but both of us love ball. I hope you loved 1425 01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:57,960 Speaker 1: ball ball Wow. J Billis was incredibly gracious with his time. 1426 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:00,760 Speaker 1: Feel free to tweet at him. Didn't met your thoughts 1427 01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:05,360 Speaker 1: in the podcast, and uh remember Scott Brooks next week 1428 01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,960 Speaker 1: and he has great stories. But my my sincere gratitude 1429 01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,920 Speaker 1: and thanks to Jay spending so much time talking about him, 1430 01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:16,240 Speaker 1: talking about Wrath, talking about what it was like to play, 1431 01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,599 Speaker 1: what it's been like to cover, and his own future 1432 01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,920 Speaker 1: and his thoughts on Duke in college basketball, NBA basketball 1433 01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:24,280 Speaker 1: the sport that we love and that's kind of brought 1434 01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,639 Speaker 1: us together as friends. I hope you enjoyed listening. Remember 1435 01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:30,639 Speaker 1: to subscribe, download and rate us, and tune in next 1436 01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:33,320 Speaker 1: week to Scott Brooks, the head coach of the Washington Wizards. 1437 01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,479 Speaker 1: I'm Doug Gottlieb. This has been all ball