WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Week 2 Catch-up with Michael Lewis 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:20.716 Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to 0:00:20.756 --> 0:00:22.636 this episode, I want to let you know that you 0:00:22.636 --> 0:00:25.916 can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial 0:00:25.956 --> 0:00:29.476 of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin 0:00:29.556 --> 0:00:33.516 Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:37.356 access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:42.236 McCartney's new podcast, McCartney A Life in Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's 0:00:42.236 --> 0:00:46.716 Revisionist history, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and 0:00:46.836 --> 0:00:49.956 tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:57.316 Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome 0:00:57.356 --> 0:01:00.196 to Judging Sam, The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm 0:01:00.196 --> 0:01:03.636 Michael Lewis. We're two weeks into the trial now and 0:01:03.676 --> 0:01:06.716 the prosecution's almost done making their case and there's a 0:01:06.756 --> 0:01:09.636 lot to unpack. It's been this steady stream with people 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:12.796 who I know, some of them just casually, but most 0:01:12.836 --> 0:01:16.196 of them pretty well from reporting the book. Seeing them 0:01:16.196 --> 0:01:19.716 in court has just been wildly fascinating. Except I haven't 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:21.596 seen them in court because I haven't been in court 0:01:21.636 --> 0:01:23.796 because I've been on this book tour instead of Lydia 0:01:23.876 --> 0:01:25.716 jin Kott has been in court and she's been keeping 0:01:25.716 --> 0:01:29.236 me posted, but LJ, I'm so excited to finally have 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:30.836 a moment to catch up and talk it all through 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:34.116 with me. So we're recording this on Saturday, October the fourteenth, 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:36.316 And the biggest thing that's happened since we last spoke 0:01:36.836 --> 0:01:40.436 is that Caroline Ellison is testified. What was she like? 0:01:41.276 --> 0:01:44.156 You know, when she was testifying? Afterwards, I went back 0:01:44.316 --> 0:01:46.836 and I looked at how you bring her on stage 0:01:46.836 --> 0:01:50.036 in your book, and the first sentence is it only 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:52.236 took a couple of weeks of working for Sam before 0:01:52.276 --> 0:01:54.956 Caroline Ellison called her mother and sobbed into the phone 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:57.756 that she made the biggest mistake of her life. And 0:01:58.036 --> 0:02:01.516 I don't think that could be a better introduction. And 0:02:02.436 --> 0:02:05.796 it's really what her testimony felt like. It felt like 0:02:05.836 --> 0:02:07.996 she was telling the story of how working for Sam 0:02:08.156 --> 0:02:09.876 was the worst misstake of her life. 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:13.996 And at any point did she give any indication of 0:02:14.116 --> 0:02:16.956 why she stayed, like what kept her in? 0:02:17.436 --> 0:02:21.036 They did ask at one point if she considered resigning, 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:23.836 and she said that she told Sam that she was 0:02:23.836 --> 0:02:26.756 thinking about resigning and wanted to resign, and Sam said, 0:02:26.756 --> 0:02:29.356 you can't do that. We need you, and how she 0:02:29.436 --> 0:02:31.676 was afraid that if she left then everything would come 0:02:31.716 --> 0:02:32.396 tumbling down. 0:02:33.196 --> 0:02:36.036 Huh. So, you know, it's funny. Among the documents I 0:02:36.076 --> 0:02:39.556 had my hands on were a fuller sort of account 0:02:39.796 --> 0:02:43.476 of their relationship as detailed on their Google Docs messages, 0:02:43.796 --> 0:02:47.516 and there was a constant theme through it of her 0:02:47.596 --> 0:02:51.716 feeling ill equipped for the job, unhappy in the job, 0:02:52.036 --> 0:02:55.116 it's too stressed in the job, and basically kind of 0:02:55.156 --> 0:02:59.196 wanting to quit all the time, it seemed. But at 0:02:59.236 --> 0:03:01.516 the same time, in the transcript, she talks about how 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:04.276 like she felt, you know, you were there, so I 0:03:04.276 --> 0:03:09.556 don't know, but she felt more like a victim on 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:14.476 the stand then she felt in her exchanges, these personal 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:17.516 exchanges with Sam and in the flesh when I interviewed her, 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:21.356 she seemed stronger when I met her, and stronger when 0:03:21.356 --> 0:03:24.116 she's standing up to Sam in their relationship. Then she 0:03:24.236 --> 0:03:26.716 sounded like she felt she was on the stand. 0:03:27.236 --> 0:03:31.516 I mean, she told a very strong story on the stand. Yeah, 0:03:31.556 --> 0:03:36.036 but the story was that basically she was a victim 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:38.236 of Sam. And I was thinking, it's interesting that you 0:03:38.276 --> 0:03:41.636 say that, because I did feel differently after seeing her 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:43.836 on the stand than how I felt for reading your book. 0:03:44.596 --> 0:03:47.716 When I read your book, it seemed weird to me 0:03:47.876 --> 0:03:51.876 that she was so almost giddy when everything came crashing down, 0:03:51.956 --> 0:03:55.356 when other people were so upset about it. And on 0:03:55.396 --> 0:03:58.676 the stand I felt like I understood psychologically more what 0:03:58.716 --> 0:04:00.996 was going on. The way she told the story is 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:03.756 the whole time she had been like, this is a 0:04:03.796 --> 0:04:06.756 really bad situation, and no one else around her was 0:04:06.796 --> 0:04:09.596 really acknowledging it. And then when it happened, there is 0:04:09.636 --> 0:04:12.596 a sense of relief, even though a terrible thing happened, 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:14.796 you know. And when she cried, that was when I 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:17.476 really felt for her in a way that I didn't 0:04:17.716 --> 0:04:20.956 feel for her in the book, right, you know. 0:04:21.276 --> 0:04:23.356 Can I tell you one thing I noticed, and it's 0:04:23.516 --> 0:04:26.076 again it's from reading the transcript, so it's different from 0:04:26.116 --> 0:04:28.356 seeing it. You may just have a different feel for 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:31.796 this material than I do from having been there. But 0:04:32.876 --> 0:04:36.716 Caroline over and over says she was stressed for these 0:04:36.996 --> 0:04:39.436 few months the last you know, I was the last 0:04:39.436 --> 0:04:42.996 few months have been miserable, but not before then. There's 0:04:43.036 --> 0:04:45.076 not a lot of emphasis on the period before then 0:04:45.196 --> 0:04:47.236 except and this was interesting to me, And this is 0:04:47.236 --> 0:04:50.156 where I thought the prosecution like got away with something 0:04:50.156 --> 0:04:51.676 that they didn't think they were going to get away with. 0:04:52.356 --> 0:04:55.716 She says that the first time she was uncomfortable was 0:04:55.756 --> 0:04:59.596 when Sam told her to pay out of essentially out 0:04:59.596 --> 0:05:02.116 of it what amounted to FTX customer funds. Oh, they're 0:05:02.156 --> 0:05:05.076 sitting in Alameda to pay the billion dollars to see 0:05:05.156 --> 0:05:07.916 Z to buy him out of his stake. That sounds like, Oh, 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:10.076 this here it is, here's the beginning the slippery slope. 0:05:10.196 --> 0:05:11.836 There's not enough money to do what he wants to do, 0:05:11.876 --> 0:05:14.196 and he's telling her to use money he shouldn't use, right, 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:17.396 But I just double checked this actually to make sure 0:05:17.436 --> 0:05:20.956 it was true. I talked to the venture people at FTX, 0:05:20.956 --> 0:05:24.356 the former venture people, and as that money was going 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:27.396 out the door, almost two billion dollars at one point 0:05:27.436 --> 0:05:30.156 eight billion dollars was coming in the door from venture 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:34.276 capitalists that Sam had raised. And I think I'm pretty 0:05:34.316 --> 0:05:36.836 sure what he was doing is trying to pay off 0:05:36.876 --> 0:05:41.276 CZ a moment before the terms of this fundraise was announced, 0:05:41.316 --> 0:05:44.836 because he was raising money at such a higher evaluation 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:47.436 than he was buying out CZ. And if CZ could 0:05:47.436 --> 0:05:49.836 see what the venture capitalists were paying to buy in 0:05:50.116 --> 0:05:52.316 he would have to have paid him more. And so 0:05:52.956 --> 0:05:55.356 the lines crossed right from the beginning, because the funds 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:58.156 are mingled right from the beginning. But this other line, 0:05:58.236 --> 0:06:01.156 this line of we're going to spend money we don't 0:06:01.196 --> 0:06:05.196 even have, doesn't seem to be being cross there, but 0:06:05.236 --> 0:06:08.676 they suggested it was, and she suggests she was a 0:06:08.716 --> 0:06:12.356 little young comfortable with it. And that seems strange to me, 0:06:12.636 --> 0:06:15.276 because everybody knew that there was more coming in that 0:06:15.396 --> 0:06:16.716 was going out, and it was a matter of a 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:20.916 weak difference. And I thought, wow, prosecutors are actually routing 0:06:20.956 --> 0:06:23.436 the defense here, because the defense really should take them 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:24.076 on on this. 0:06:24.876 --> 0:06:28.396 And what she said was that that incident confirmed for 0:06:28.476 --> 0:06:31.076 her that Alameda's line of I think the quote is 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:33.836 Alameda's line of credit on FTX could be used as 0:06:33.836 --> 0:06:37.596 a general backstop source of funds for whenever we needed funds, right, 0:06:37.756 --> 0:06:41.036 But I guess it's a story of like a backstop 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.476 for a week, and then it becomes a backstop maybe 0:06:43.516 --> 0:06:46.036 for three months, and then maybe a backstop for three years. 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:49.836 What the point is they don't need it again until June. 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:54.836 I guess they're saying of twenty twenty two, just more 0:06:54.876 --> 0:06:59.596 generally most most of what interests me doesn't have much 0:06:59.596 --> 0:07:02.716 effect on whether Sam is convicted or acquitted. You know 0:07:02.756 --> 0:07:04.996 that it's mostly the legal stuff is like its whole 0:07:05.036 --> 0:07:08.276 separate subject. And I kind of thought it was toast 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:11.396 going into this, but it looks like it's gotten even worse. 0:07:12.276 --> 0:07:15.876 And you would probably agree with that. Right if I said, 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:18.836 before you stepped into the courtroom, whatever it was, two 0:07:18.876 --> 0:07:21.996 weeks ago, what odds would you have to be given 0:07:22.356 --> 0:07:25.556 to bet that Sam is acquitted? What would you have demanded? 0:07:26.116 --> 0:07:28.876 I mean, as opposed to Sam. I'm not really a 0:07:28.876 --> 0:07:37.276 betting woman, but I I mean, I definitely thought Sam 0:07:37.356 --> 0:07:38.996 was going to be found guilty, just by the very 0:07:39.036 --> 0:07:41.676 fact that most of the time the prosecution wins. But 0:07:41.756 --> 0:07:44.516 I also thought that there was a chance that something 0:07:44.556 --> 0:07:47.916 would come up in the defense that would complicate the story, 0:07:48.276 --> 0:07:51.276 or that there would be a moment where maybe it 0:07:51.276 --> 0:07:52.756 would be a bit un clear, or you know, people 0:07:52.756 --> 0:07:55.756 always talk about there's that wonder. So I was open 0:07:55.796 --> 0:07:59.756 to possibilities at this point, at the end of this week, 0:08:00.596 --> 0:08:03.476 it feels like an incredible reach to try and come 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:05.596 up with a way to not find him guilty. 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:09.076 Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. So you didn't, 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:12.356 you won't take my bet. I would have said fifty 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:15.916 to one two weeks ago, and now I'd say two 0:08:16.036 --> 0:08:20.956 hundred to one. That it's moved that much. But then again, 0:08:21.316 --> 0:08:24.876 we've got to acknowledge that, you know, innocent until proven guilty, 0:08:24.916 --> 0:08:26.236 and he hasn't had a chance to be on the 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:29.236 stand yet, so and he is going to take the stand, 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:32.076 and so who knows what? Yeah, oh, yeah he is. 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:36.956 I asked this PR person just to confirm this, like 0:08:36.996 --> 0:08:39.476 a week ago. Is he still going to take the stand? 0:08:39.476 --> 0:08:41.156 And he said, does a bear shit in the woods? 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:43.356 And I actually don't know if a bear shits in 0:08:43.396 --> 0:08:45.356 the woods because IVE never seen a bear shit. So 0:08:45.396 --> 0:08:48.516 I told him I don't think no, And I don't 0:08:48.516 --> 0:08:50.316 think that he's the port of bodies either. So that 0:08:50.356 --> 0:08:52.796 we got that to look forward to, and I'm hoping 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:55.156 is it going to offend you if I come and 0:08:55.276 --> 0:08:56.596 join you for a few days. Do you feel like 0:08:56.596 --> 0:08:57.356 I'll be crawling on you? 0:08:57.516 --> 0:08:59.476 No, I would be so excited if you joined me. 0:08:59.756 --> 0:09:01.476 I'd be so excited to have you meet all my 0:09:01.556 --> 0:09:02.276 court friends. 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:04.396 I can meet all your friends or your new group. Yeah, 0:09:04.396 --> 0:09:06.396 but I feel like I'll be excluded in some way 0:09:06.476 --> 0:09:07.876 because you all have been on the inside. 0:09:07.996 --> 0:09:10.396 No, I cannot wait for you to come and get 0:09:10.436 --> 0:09:17.196 to show you my favorite snacks in the cafeteria. 0:09:15.756 --> 0:09:18.436 So you can show me around. And we have to 0:09:18.436 --> 0:09:19.876 show up at six in the morning to get in 0:09:19.916 --> 0:09:29.636 and all that, so I will do that. Welcome back 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:33.596 to Judging Sam the trial of Sam Bankman freed. So 0:09:33.676 --> 0:09:35.876 a couple more, a couple more just kind of questions 0:09:35.916 --> 0:09:38.436 for you. But these are random things that like just 0:09:38.556 --> 0:09:41.036 jumped out at me. And unfortunately, one of the ways 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:43.196 I'm thinking about this is what I have liked to 0:09:43.276 --> 0:09:45.716 have had this material because I could have done stuff 0:09:45.756 --> 0:09:47.836 with it that I didn't do. And the other thing 0:09:47.956 --> 0:09:52.596 is like, are people basically behaving like I think they are? 0:09:53.796 --> 0:09:56.356 I'm looking at it that way too. So, for example, 0:09:56.476 --> 0:09:59.156 Gary blew my mind that I knew something weird was 0:09:59.196 --> 0:10:00.756 going to happen. I didn't think it was. The problem 0:10:00.836 --> 0:10:02.156 was going to be he was going to speak too 0:10:02.156 --> 0:10:04.476 fast for anybody to understand. I thought they were going 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:07.036 to have trouble pulling words out of him. You know, 0:10:07.596 --> 0:10:10.356 it's a comic moment when this person who everybody thinks 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:12.556 doesn't speak, when he gets on a witness stand. Can't 0:10:12.596 --> 0:10:17.036 shut up, but okay, things just jumped out of me. 0:10:18.796 --> 0:10:21.876 The pillow talk between Sam and Caroline. The first thing 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:26.036 was this coin flip, this idea that he volunteers that 0:10:26.036 --> 0:10:28.916 if you gave him a coin and if it lands 0:10:28.916 --> 0:10:32.916 on heads, humanity the world is wiped out. And if 0:10:32.916 --> 0:10:35.516 it lands on tails, everything is twice as good or 0:10:35.556 --> 0:10:37.916 three times as good as well. So it's an asymmetric bet, 0:10:38.356 --> 0:10:41.116 but it's a fifty to fifty chance of wiping out everything. 0:10:41.636 --> 0:10:46.876 This just clashes spectacularly with the whole effective altruist desire 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:50.876 to minimize catastrophic risk. My response would be, I'm not 0:10:50.996 --> 0:10:54.916 flipping that coin under any circumstances. There's no odds where 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:58.356 if there's better than zero odds that wipes out the world. 0:10:58.676 --> 0:11:01.876 I don't even flip the coin. Sam only requires two 0:11:01.916 --> 0:11:06.036 to one odds. This seems nuts, and one of the 0:11:06.036 --> 0:11:09.316 things it speaks to and the Sam bankman free in 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:13.436 the book does this. He does two things as patterns 0:11:13.436 --> 0:11:17.116 of behavior. He's pretty blithe about shoveling risk on to 0:11:17.196 --> 0:11:22.316 other people, taking risks on behalf of other people. And 0:11:22.316 --> 0:11:25.716 he's pretty blithe about letting other people say things that 0:11:25.756 --> 0:11:29.956 aren't true on his behalf zaying in the book Zaine Tackett, 0:11:29.996 --> 0:11:34.556 who was really the original crypto guy. He was in 0:11:34.596 --> 0:11:37.076 crypto from the beginning, and they called him the og. 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:39.836 He was sort of the soul of crypto, of old 0:11:39.876 --> 0:11:42.876 crypto that founded its way into Sam's world. And I 0:11:42.916 --> 0:11:44.796 always thought of him as like the moral center of 0:11:44.836 --> 0:11:45.156 the book. 0:11:45.316 --> 0:11:47.716 What was his job at FTX whatever. 0:11:47.436 --> 0:11:49.596 They called him, what his job was a sales He 0:11:49.756 --> 0:11:54.996 was just managing relations with big crypto speculators. And there's 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:56.876 a moment I thought of as like a big moment 0:11:56.916 --> 0:11:58.836 when Zaye is walking out of the Bahamas and he's 0:11:58.956 --> 0:12:02.516 just really furious that Sam let him lie, that Sam 0:12:02.676 --> 0:12:05.876 encouraged him to go and reassure all their friends that 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:10.236 everything was okay. And the coin got me thinking about that. 0:12:10.236 --> 0:12:13.156 That that kind of like, really you do that, you 0:12:13.196 --> 0:12:14.836 flip that coin. Now, I don't know if he'd really 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:16.476 do it, and I don't know the content. 0:12:16.676 --> 0:12:19.876 He said that on a podcast also something similar, Yeah, 0:12:19.916 --> 0:12:22.036 he said. The host asked him, let's say there's a 0:12:22.076 --> 0:12:24.196 game fifty one percent you double the Earth out of 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:27.156 somewhere else forty nine percent it disappears. Would you play 0:12:27.156 --> 0:12:29.596 the game and would you keep playing that double or nothing? 0:12:29.756 --> 0:12:31.396 And like basically Stam says he would. 0:12:31.836 --> 0:12:34.836 That's nuts. Yeah, that's nuts. I mean, that's that's just 0:12:34.956 --> 0:12:39.276 that's just insane. You know. It's interesting the Jane Street experience. 0:12:39.716 --> 0:12:42.396 And in Jane Street, he comes away with the feeling 0:12:42.476 --> 0:12:45.636 that he's really good at finding these fifty one forty 0:12:45.716 --> 0:12:49.476 nine bets and making them. And from Jane Street's point 0:12:49.516 --> 0:12:52.316 of view, that's fine because they have two hundred other 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:55.076 people making these fifty one forty nine bets. And if 0:12:55.076 --> 0:12:57.676 you've got you know, a massive number of people making 0:12:57.716 --> 0:12:59.716 a massive number of bets, event you're going to win 0:12:59.796 --> 0:13:02.156 fifty one percent of the time. And that's fine. But 0:13:02.196 --> 0:13:06.556 if it's just one person flipping a coin, that's not fine. 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:08.036 That's different. 0:13:08.276 --> 0:13:10.476 Like it's almost like he took that lesson from Jane 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:12.756 Street but didn't understand the context in which he was 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:13.596 acting in that way. 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:18.636 I think that's precisely it, this business of there being 0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:21.276 a five percent chance of being president of the United States. 0:13:21.396 --> 0:13:22.876 Yes, Caroline says he told her. 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:25.156 That this is the sort of thing a boyfriend says 0:13:25.196 --> 0:13:27.796 to a girlfriend and a girlfriend should never repeat. Right, 0:13:27.956 --> 0:13:30.836 It's like whatever, like maybe in a moment he had 0:13:30.876 --> 0:13:35.276 this thought even before things went bad. If there were 0:13:35.316 --> 0:13:38.516 only twenty Americans, so everybody in theory had a one 0:13:38.556 --> 0:13:40.676 in five chance of being president of the United States, 0:13:40.756 --> 0:13:42.836 and Sam was one of them. I wouldn't give him 0:13:42.836 --> 0:13:44.516 a one in five chance of being president of the 0:13:44.636 --> 0:13:47.396 United States. I would say he has about in a 0:13:47.396 --> 0:13:50.756 group of twenty any twenty randomly selected Americans, he has 0:13:50.756 --> 0:13:54.716 about a two percent chance. And it's because people sense 0:13:54.996 --> 0:13:57.636 very quickly when they're with him. He doesn't feel for 0:13:57.676 --> 0:13:59.956 them that he doesn't that he doesn't He doesn't have 0:13:59.996 --> 0:14:02.996 that thing, that thing that politicians need, you know, the 0:14:03.356 --> 0:14:06.796 empathy thing, even if it's faith, he doesn't. He doesn't 0:14:06.836 --> 0:14:10.676 even fake it very well. So it's funny that that 0:14:10.716 --> 0:14:13.876 thought even crossed his mind. Again, I don't know how 0:14:13.916 --> 0:14:16.916 true or whatever it was, but it did jump out 0:14:16.916 --> 0:14:19.436 of the transcripts. How did it play in the courtroom? 0:14:19.636 --> 0:14:21.316 I was in the overflow room. I mean, there were 0:14:21.356 --> 0:14:23.676 some titters in that whole section. The reporters love the 0:14:23.716 --> 0:14:26.236 insight into Sam's mind and how it works and what 0:14:26.276 --> 0:14:28.476 he's thinking about, and the whole time Caroline was talking, 0:14:28.516 --> 0:14:31.156 and especially when she was talking about her relationship with Sam. 0:14:31.396 --> 0:14:33.876 Everyone was just riveted. Those were the most riveting parts 0:14:33.876 --> 0:14:37.076 of her entire testimony. Yeah, but it's not so crazy 0:14:37.116 --> 0:14:39.156 to think that he would become president when he was 0:14:39.196 --> 0:14:42.476 really rich. Really rich people who aren't very empathetic have 0:14:42.596 --> 0:14:44.916 become presidents of the United States in the past. 0:14:46.436 --> 0:14:48.756 I can't think of any I mean, this Trump, but 0:14:48.796 --> 0:14:49.636 he's not really rich. 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:51.436 That's a good plaint. 0:14:53.276 --> 0:14:56.956 So are you you're so? Are you always in the 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:58.876 overflow room where you sometimes in the main corporo. 0:14:58.996 --> 0:15:00.676 It's a mix. Basically, it's a mix. 0:15:00.876 --> 0:15:03.756 So what are the rules about laughing? 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:09.676 For example, the marshals have never specifically stated any rules 0:15:09.676 --> 0:15:12.996 about laughing. They're very firm about the no electronics, no food, 0:15:13.196 --> 0:15:16.276 only water. I think there's a kind of self regulation 0:15:16.356 --> 0:15:19.276 where we just don't want to feel like we're influencing 0:15:19.276 --> 0:15:21.636 the jury. But in the overflow rooms it's really fun. 0:15:21.676 --> 0:15:23.756 It's really like we're at the movies. People are laughing, 0:15:23.796 --> 0:15:27.796 they're talking, sacking in with each other. 0:15:28.156 --> 0:15:30.316 So the overflall room may be better in some ways, 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:31.996 so you can actually express yourself. 0:15:32.116 --> 0:15:34.236 Yes, the overflow room, it feels like I always wish 0:15:34.236 --> 0:15:36.396 I had popcorn. It feels like we're doing an overnight 0:15:36.436 --> 0:15:38.516 showing of the Rocky Horror Picture Show or something. 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:42.636 Then one time I've been in the courtroom, I was 0:15:42.676 --> 0:15:44.596 so amused I started laughing, and they told me I 0:15:44.596 --> 0:15:47.636 had to leave. Yeah, I thought you couldn't do that. 0:15:47.796 --> 0:15:51.076 I think we naturally keep it down in the court room. 0:15:51.076 --> 0:15:53.596 I mean, it's so formal in there. I don't know 0:15:53.596 --> 0:15:55.996 what courtroom you were. In the atmosphere, it just makes 0:15:56.076 --> 0:15:58.596 laughing feel so beyond the pale that it just hasn't 0:15:58.596 --> 0:16:01.116 even come up right right. 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:05.756 I was shocked. I came up. I'm reading these transcripts 0:16:05.796 --> 0:16:07.956 and then all of a sudden, did you meet Michael 0:16:07.996 --> 0:16:09.916 Lewis or whenever? Who is like a Lewis? And the 0:16:09.956 --> 0:16:12.476 thing you didn't tell me what you told me? That 0:16:12.556 --> 0:16:14.436 I that I come up in some way. What I 0:16:14.476 --> 0:16:17.796 didn't realize is that they asked her if I was 0:16:17.956 --> 0:16:22.716 present in the discussions about moving money to the wrong place, 0:16:23.076 --> 0:16:25.996 And I thought, what on earth like? But I thought, 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:26.996 thank god she said no. 0:16:27.396 --> 0:16:27.676 Yeah. 0:16:27.796 --> 0:16:31.276 I mean, well, why are they asking that? There was something? 0:16:31.316 --> 0:16:33.596 They must They must have known the answer before they 0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:35.116 asked the question. But the question I was trying to 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:37.596 figure out why were they asking them? Were they asking 0:16:37.596 --> 0:16:40.596 that to show that I wasn't in these these special 0:16:40.636 --> 0:16:42.516 meetings between them. I don't know. I don't know. I 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:43.756 couldn't figure out what that was. 0:16:44.676 --> 0:16:46.196 I think that what they were trying to get at 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:49.076 is that they were this whole section was about Sam 0:16:49.116 --> 0:16:51.156 and the media, and they were showing how Sam was 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:54.436 very intentionally trying to portray himself a certain way in 0:16:54.476 --> 0:16:57.476 the media and it wasn't accurate. So I think that 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:00.916 question was kind of getting at the point that you 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:03.636 weren't getting the whole story. He was portraying himself as 0:17:03.676 --> 0:17:08.836 this eccentric, capable leader. I'm speculating here, but I'm thinking 0:17:08.836 --> 0:17:12.356 maybe they're asking that to say, but actually you weren't 0:17:12.356 --> 0:17:14.036 seeing the whole thing. You weren't seeing what was happening 0:17:14.036 --> 0:17:17.236 behind closed doories, which were these conversations about about. 0:17:16.996 --> 0:17:19.436 Moving money to the wrong place. Now that's true. I 0:17:19.516 --> 0:17:21.556 wasn't present when they were saying the money is in 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:24.796 the wrong place. No one was present when they were 0:17:24.796 --> 0:17:27.836 saying money was in the wrong place. It's funny, though 0:17:28.796 --> 0:17:31.116 Sam's never broken character so far as I can tell. 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:32.956 Like you go back and talk to people in high school, 0:17:32.996 --> 0:17:35.436 he was just like you know, the the high schoolassmates says, 0:17:35.436 --> 0:17:38.876 the same guy. High school classmates I've talked to are 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:43.396 shocked when they've seen him because they assumed that, especially 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.036 before it all collapsed, they assumed that there was no 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:49.236 way the person they knew could have become a billionaire. 0:17:49.676 --> 0:17:52.556 And they assumed like he changed, and they realized that 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:55.436 the world changed, and he was the same guy with 0:17:55.476 --> 0:17:58.436 the funny roly backpack. And I mean, I've spent way 0:17:58.516 --> 0:18:00.196 too much time with him for him to be acting 0:18:00.236 --> 0:18:01.956 all the time. I mean, and that was true even 0:18:01.996 --> 0:18:05.516 before it collapsed. So what I'm saying is what I 0:18:05.556 --> 0:18:09.036 think happened. And it's the story. Here is pr person 0:18:09.276 --> 0:18:14.716 Natalie tells is he goes from being when they create FTX, 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:17.436 then you have to promote it. How do you promote it? 0:18:17.436 --> 0:18:20.676 It's the person who is the CEO. And Natalie's there 0:18:20.756 --> 0:18:24.756 and she says, he's so weird, but it may be 0:18:24.876 --> 0:18:27.556 weird will work. I'm not going to even try to 0:18:27.636 --> 0:18:30.756 change him. And she throws him on Bloomberg Television and 0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:33.156 she looks him because he's exactly as he is, and 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:36.396 it's unbelievable. It works. They're eating it up. And I 0:18:36.436 --> 0:18:39.476 think it's more true that they ate him up as 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:42.716 he was, you know, playing video games while he is 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:48.396 on the television sloppy stream of consciousness, smart, you know, 0:18:48.556 --> 0:18:51.996 a little too open and transparent, seemingly, and so he 0:18:52.116 --> 0:18:53.956 just went with it. And there might have been times 0:18:53.996 --> 0:18:56.476 with it he was a slightly exaggerated version of that, 0:18:56.756 --> 0:18:57.956 but that's actually who he is. 0:18:58.276 --> 0:18:59.796 He went with it, and then it worked, and then 0:18:59.796 --> 0:19:02.036 he really leaned into it, right. I mean, the prosecutors 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:04.876 were bringing up how originally he slept in his being 0:19:04.916 --> 0:19:06.956 bagchair a lot, maybe in Hong Kong, but once they 0:19:06.956 --> 0:19:09.116 got to the Bahamas, he didn't really sleep in his 0:19:09.236 --> 0:19:13.316 being back chair, according to I think said that. 0:19:13.876 --> 0:19:16.636 And his prietory spent less time as being back chair. 0:19:17.716 --> 0:19:21.796 That was true because in Hong Kong, the housing was 0:19:21.836 --> 0:19:25.116 shitty and the offices were really nice. In the Bahamas, 0:19:25.196 --> 0:19:27.836 the offices were shitty, and the and the condos they 0:19:27.876 --> 0:19:31.276 lived in were really nice. And Nashad Sam, they all 0:19:31.316 --> 0:19:33.476 complained about it. They hated it. They would have heard 0:19:33.516 --> 0:19:36.356 ferd ash shitty housing and a really nice office, so 0:19:36.436 --> 0:19:39.596 nobody wanted to leave the office. So there's no point 0:19:39.636 --> 0:19:41.716 in Sam living in the office when nobody was there 0:19:41.756 --> 0:19:43.436 because they didn't want to be there. In the in 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:45.956 the Hong Kong and the employees were there all the time, 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:48.596 and in the Bahamas is just like you couldn't be 0:19:48.636 --> 0:19:50.596 there all the time. And the tick about the sleeping 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:54.396 in the being back chair, it isn't to reveal his eccentricity. 0:19:54.716 --> 0:19:56.916 That's not why he does it. It's because he's really 0:19:56.956 --> 0:20:01.116 uncomfortable sleeping alone. He wouldn't stay in his hotel rooms 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:04.156 when he traveled. He'd go curl up in another employees 0:20:04.356 --> 0:20:06.956 on their sofa in their room because he just I 0:20:06.996 --> 0:20:09.556 don't know what that is, but he was really comfortable 0:20:09.556 --> 0:20:12.316 sleeping in a room by himself, and I think the 0:20:12.316 --> 0:20:16.796 bemback chair when people were there was comforting. So he 0:20:16.916 --> 0:20:18.756 wasn't like sleeping on the bean bag to show me 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:20.996 he was sleeping on the bean bag. They didn't get 0:20:21.036 --> 0:20:21.716