1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:20,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to 2 00:00:20,756 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 1: this episode, I want to let you know that you 3 00:00:22,636 --> 00:00:25,916 Speaker 1: can listen to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial 4 00:00:25,956 --> 00:00:29,476 Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin 5 00:00:29,556 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 1: Plus subscriber, and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive 6 00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: access to ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul 7 00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:42,236 Speaker 1: McCartney's new podcast, McCartney A Life in Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's 8 00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:46,716 Speaker 1: Revisionist history, The Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and 9 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:49,956 Speaker 1: tons of other top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an 10 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome 11 00:00:57,356 --> 00:01:00,196 Speaker 1: to Judging Sam, The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm 12 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:03,636 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis. We're two weeks into the trial now and 13 00:01:03,676 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: the prosecution's almost done making their case and there's a 14 00:01:06,756 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 1: lot to unpack. It's been this steady stream with people 15 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:12,796 Speaker 1: who I know, some of them just casually, but most 16 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 1: of them pretty well from reporting the book. Seeing them 17 00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 1: in court has just been wildly fascinating. Except I haven't 18 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:21,596 Speaker 1: seen them in court because I haven't been in court 19 00:01:21,636 --> 00:01:23,796 Speaker 1: because I've been on this book tour instead of Lydia 20 00:01:23,876 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 1: jin Kott has been in court and she's been keeping 21 00:01:25,716 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: me posted, but LJ, I'm so excited to finally have 22 00:01:29,276 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 1: a moment to catch up and talk it all through 23 00:01:30,836 --> 00:01:34,116 Speaker 1: with me. So we're recording this on Saturday, October the fourteenth, 24 00:01:34,196 --> 00:01:36,316 Speaker 1: And the biggest thing that's happened since we last spoke 25 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:40,436 Speaker 1: is that Caroline Ellison is testified. What was she like? 26 00:01:41,276 --> 00:01:44,156 Speaker 2: You know, when she was testifying? Afterwards, I went back 27 00:01:44,316 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 2: and I looked at how you bring her on stage 28 00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 2: in your book, and the first sentence is it only 29 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:52,236 Speaker 2: took a couple of weeks of working for Sam before 30 00:01:52,276 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 2: Caroline Ellison called her mother and sobbed into the phone 31 00:01:54,996 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 2: that she made the biggest mistake of her life. And 32 00:01:58,036 --> 00:02:01,516 Speaker 2: I don't think that could be a better introduction. And 33 00:02:02,436 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 2: it's really what her testimony felt like. It felt like 34 00:02:05,836 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 2: she was telling the story of how working for Sam 35 00:02:08,156 --> 00:02:09,876 Speaker 2: was the worst misstake of her life. 36 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:13,996 Speaker 1: And at any point did she give any indication of 37 00:02:14,116 --> 00:02:16,956 Speaker 1: why she stayed, like what kept her in? 38 00:02:17,436 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 2: They did ask at one point if she considered resigning, 39 00:02:21,116 --> 00:02:23,836 Speaker 2: and she said that she told Sam that she was 40 00:02:23,836 --> 00:02:26,756 Speaker 2: thinking about resigning and wanted to resign, and Sam said, 41 00:02:26,756 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 2: you can't do that. We need you, and how she 42 00:02:29,436 --> 00:02:31,676 Speaker 2: was afraid that if she left then everything would come 43 00:02:31,716 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 2: tumbling down. 44 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:36,036 Speaker 1: Huh. So, you know, it's funny. Among the documents I 45 00:02:36,076 --> 00:02:39,556 Speaker 1: had my hands on were a fuller sort of account 46 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 1: of their relationship as detailed on their Google Docs messages, 47 00:02:43,796 --> 00:02:47,516 Speaker 1: and there was a constant theme through it of her 48 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:51,716 Speaker 1: feeling ill equipped for the job, unhappy in the job, 49 00:02:52,036 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 1: it's too stressed in the job, and basically kind of 50 00:02:55,156 --> 00:02:59,196 Speaker 1: wanting to quit all the time, it seemed. But at 51 00:02:59,236 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 1: the same time, in the transcript, she talks about how 52 00:03:01,676 --> 00:03:04,276 Speaker 1: like she felt, you know, you were there, so I 53 00:03:04,276 --> 00:03:09,556 Speaker 1: don't know, but she felt more like a victim on 54 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:14,476 Speaker 1: the stand then she felt in her exchanges, these personal 55 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:17,516 Speaker 1: exchanges with Sam and in the flesh when I interviewed her, 56 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:21,356 Speaker 1: she seemed stronger when I met her, and stronger when 57 00:03:21,356 --> 00:03:24,116 Speaker 1: she's standing up to Sam in their relationship. Then she 58 00:03:24,236 --> 00:03:26,716 Speaker 1: sounded like she felt she was on the stand. 59 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:31,516 Speaker 2: I mean, she told a very strong story on the stand. Yeah, 60 00:03:31,556 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 2: but the story was that basically she was a victim 61 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:38,236 Speaker 2: of Sam. And I was thinking, it's interesting that you 62 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:41,636 Speaker 2: say that, because I did feel differently after seeing her 63 00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 2: on the stand than how I felt for reading your book. 64 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:47,716 Speaker 2: When I read your book, it seemed weird to me 65 00:03:47,876 --> 00:03:51,876 Speaker 2: that she was so almost giddy when everything came crashing down, 66 00:03:51,956 --> 00:03:55,356 Speaker 2: when other people were so upset about it. And on 67 00:03:55,396 --> 00:03:58,676 Speaker 2: the stand I felt like I understood psychologically more what 68 00:03:58,716 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 2: was going on. The way she told the story is 69 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:03,756 Speaker 2: the whole time she had been like, this is a 70 00:04:03,796 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 2: really bad situation, and no one else around her was 71 00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:09,596 Speaker 2: really acknowledging it. And then when it happened, there is 72 00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 2: a sense of relief, even though a terrible thing happened, 73 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:14,796 Speaker 2: you know. And when she cried, that was when I 74 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 2: really felt for her in a way that I didn't 75 00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 2: feel for her in the book, right, you know. 76 00:04:21,276 --> 00:04:23,356 Speaker 1: Can I tell you one thing I noticed, and it's 77 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:26,076 Speaker 1: again it's from reading the transcript, so it's different from 78 00:04:26,116 --> 00:04:28,356 Speaker 1: seeing it. You may just have a different feel for 79 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:31,796 Speaker 1: this material than I do from having been there. But 80 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:36,716 Speaker 1: Caroline over and over says she was stressed for these 81 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:39,436 Speaker 1: few months the last you know, I was the last 82 00:04:39,436 --> 00:04:42,996 Speaker 1: few months have been miserable, but not before then. There's 83 00:04:43,036 --> 00:04:45,076 Speaker 1: not a lot of emphasis on the period before then 84 00:04:45,196 --> 00:04:47,236 Speaker 1: except and this was interesting to me, And this is 85 00:04:47,236 --> 00:04:50,156 Speaker 1: where I thought the prosecution like got away with something 86 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 1: that they didn't think they were going to get away with. 87 00:04:52,356 --> 00:04:55,716 Speaker 1: She says that the first time she was uncomfortable was 88 00:04:55,756 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 1: when Sam told her to pay out of essentially out 89 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:02,116 Speaker 1: of it what amounted to FTX customer funds. Oh, they're 90 00:05:02,156 --> 00:05:05,076 Speaker 1: sitting in Alameda to pay the billion dollars to see 91 00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 1: Z to buy him out of his stake. That sounds like, Oh, 92 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 1: this here it is, here's the beginning the slippery slope. 93 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:11,836 Speaker 1: There's not enough money to do what he wants to do, 94 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:14,196 Speaker 1: and he's telling her to use money he shouldn't use, right, 95 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:17,396 Speaker 1: But I just double checked this actually to make sure 96 00:05:17,436 --> 00:05:20,956 Speaker 1: it was true. I talked to the venture people at FTX, 97 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 1: the former venture people, and as that money was going 98 00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:27,396 Speaker 1: out the door, almost two billion dollars at one point 99 00:05:27,436 --> 00:05:30,156 Speaker 1: eight billion dollars was coming in the door from venture 100 00:05:30,196 --> 00:05:34,276 Speaker 1: capitalists that Sam had raised. And I think I'm pretty 101 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:36,836 Speaker 1: sure what he was doing is trying to pay off 102 00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: CZ a moment before the terms of this fundraise was announced, 103 00:05:41,316 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 1: because he was raising money at such a higher evaluation 104 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:47,436 Speaker 1: than he was buying out CZ. And if CZ could 105 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:49,836 Speaker 1: see what the venture capitalists were paying to buy in 106 00:05:50,116 --> 00:05:52,316 Speaker 1: he would have to have paid him more. And so 107 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:55,356 Speaker 1: the lines crossed right from the beginning, because the funds 108 00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:58,156 Speaker 1: are mingled right from the beginning. But this other line, 109 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:01,156 Speaker 1: this line of we're going to spend money we don't 110 00:06:01,196 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 1: even have, doesn't seem to be being cross there, but 111 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 1: they suggested it was, and she suggests she was a 112 00:06:08,716 --> 00:06:12,356 Speaker 1: little young comfortable with it. And that seems strange to me, 113 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 1: because everybody knew that there was more coming in that 114 00:06:15,396 --> 00:06:16,716 Speaker 1: was going out, and it was a matter of a 115 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 1: weak difference. And I thought, wow, prosecutors are actually routing 116 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:23,436 Speaker 1: the defense here, because the defense really should take them 117 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:24,076 Speaker 1: on on this. 118 00:06:24,876 --> 00:06:28,396 Speaker 2: And what she said was that that incident confirmed for 119 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:31,076 Speaker 2: her that Alameda's line of I think the quote is 120 00:06:31,116 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 2: Alameda's line of credit on FTX could be used as 121 00:06:33,836 --> 00:06:37,596 Speaker 2: a general backstop source of funds for whenever we needed funds, right, 122 00:06:37,756 --> 00:06:41,036 Speaker 2: But I guess it's a story of like a backstop 123 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:43,476 Speaker 2: for a week, and then it becomes a backstop maybe 124 00:06:43,516 --> 00:06:46,036 Speaker 2: for three months, and then maybe a backstop for three years. 125 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:49,836 Speaker 1: What the point is they don't need it again until June. 126 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:54,836 Speaker 1: I guess they're saying of twenty twenty two, just more 127 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:59,596 Speaker 1: generally most most of what interests me doesn't have much 128 00:06:59,596 --> 00:07:02,716 Speaker 1: effect on whether Sam is convicted or acquitted. You know 129 00:07:02,756 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 1: that it's mostly the legal stuff is like its whole 130 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:08,276 Speaker 1: separate subject. And I kind of thought it was toast 131 00:07:08,396 --> 00:07:11,396 Speaker 1: going into this, but it looks like it's gotten even worse. 132 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: And you would probably agree with that. Right if I said, 133 00:07:15,996 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 1: before you stepped into the courtroom, whatever it was, two 134 00:07:18,876 --> 00:07:21,996 Speaker 1: weeks ago, what odds would you have to be given 135 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 1: to bet that Sam is acquitted? What would you have demanded? 136 00:07:26,116 --> 00:07:28,876 Speaker 2: I mean, as opposed to Sam. I'm not really a 137 00:07:28,876 --> 00:07:37,276 Speaker 2: betting woman, but I I mean, I definitely thought Sam 138 00:07:37,356 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 2: was going to be found guilty, just by the very 139 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:41,676 Speaker 2: fact that most of the time the prosecution wins. But 140 00:07:41,756 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 2: I also thought that there was a chance that something 141 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 2: would come up in the defense that would complicate the story, 142 00:07:48,276 --> 00:07:51,276 Speaker 2: or that there would be a moment where maybe it 143 00:07:51,276 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 2: would be a bit un clear, or you know, people 144 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:55,756 Speaker 2: always talk about there's that wonder. So I was open 145 00:07:55,796 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 2: to possibilities at this point, at the end of this week, 146 00:08:00,596 --> 00:08:03,476 Speaker 2: it feels like an incredible reach to try and come 147 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:05,596 Speaker 2: up with a way to not find him guilty. 148 00:08:06,196 --> 00:08:09,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. So you didn't, 149 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:12,356 Speaker 1: you won't take my bet. I would have said fifty 150 00:08:12,356 --> 00:08:15,916 Speaker 1: to one two weeks ago, and now I'd say two 151 00:08:16,036 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 1: hundred to one. That it's moved that much. But then again, 152 00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 1: we've got to acknowledge that, you know, innocent until proven guilty, 153 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 1: and he hasn't had a chance to be on the 154 00:08:26,236 --> 00:08:29,236 Speaker 1: stand yet, so and he is going to take the stand, 155 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:32,076 Speaker 1: and so who knows what? Yeah, oh, yeah he is. 156 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:36,956 Speaker 1: I asked this PR person just to confirm this, like 157 00:08:36,996 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: a week ago. Is he still going to take the stand? 158 00:08:39,476 --> 00:08:41,156 Speaker 1: And he said, does a bear shit in the woods? 159 00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 1: And I actually don't know if a bear shits in 160 00:08:43,396 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 1: the woods because IVE never seen a bear shit. So 161 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:48,516 Speaker 1: I told him I don't think no, And I don't 162 00:08:48,516 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 1: think that he's the port of bodies either. So that 163 00:08:50,356 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: we got that to look forward to, and I'm hoping 164 00:08:53,116 --> 00:08:55,156 Speaker 1: is it going to offend you if I come and 165 00:08:55,276 --> 00:08:56,596 Speaker 1: join you for a few days. Do you feel like 166 00:08:56,596 --> 00:08:57,356 Speaker 1: I'll be crawling on you? 167 00:08:57,516 --> 00:08:59,476 Speaker 2: No, I would be so excited if you joined me. 168 00:08:59,756 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 2: I'd be so excited to have you meet all my 169 00:09:01,556 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 2: court friends. 170 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:04,396 Speaker 1: I can meet all your friends or your new group. Yeah, 171 00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 1: but I feel like I'll be excluded in some way 172 00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:07,876 Speaker 1: because you all have been on the inside. 173 00:09:07,996 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 2: No, I cannot wait for you to come and get 174 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:17,196 Speaker 2: to show you my favorite snacks in the cafeteria. 175 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:18,436 Speaker 1: So you can show me around. And we have to 176 00:09:18,436 --> 00:09:19,876 Speaker 1: show up at six in the morning to get in 177 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:29,636 Speaker 1: and all that, so I will do that. Welcome back 178 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 1: to Judging Sam the trial of Sam Bankman freed. So 179 00:09:33,676 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 1: a couple more, a couple more just kind of questions 180 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:38,436 Speaker 1: for you. But these are random things that like just 181 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:41,036 Speaker 1: jumped out at me. And unfortunately, one of the ways 182 00:09:41,036 --> 00:09:43,196 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this is what I have liked to 183 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 1: have had this material because I could have done stuff 184 00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:47,836 Speaker 1: with it that I didn't do. And the other thing 185 00:09:47,956 --> 00:09:52,596 Speaker 1: is like, are people basically behaving like I think they are? 186 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:56,356 Speaker 1: I'm looking at it that way too. So, for example, 187 00:09:56,476 --> 00:09:59,156 Speaker 1: Gary blew my mind that I knew something weird was 188 00:09:59,196 --> 00:10:00,756 Speaker 1: going to happen. I didn't think it was. The problem 189 00:10:00,836 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 1: was going to be he was going to speak too 190 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 1: fast for anybody to understand. I thought they were going 191 00:10:04,516 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 1: to have trouble pulling words out of him. You know, 192 00:10:07,596 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 1: it's a comic moment when this person who everybody thinks 193 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:12,556 Speaker 1: doesn't speak, when he gets on a witness stand. Can't 194 00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:17,036 Speaker 1: shut up, but okay, things just jumped out of me. 195 00:10:18,796 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 1: The pillow talk between Sam and Caroline. The first thing 196 00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 1: was this coin flip, this idea that he volunteers that 197 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:28,916 Speaker 1: if you gave him a coin and if it lands 198 00:10:28,916 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 1: on heads, humanity the world is wiped out. And if 199 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 1: it lands on tails, everything is twice as good or 200 00:10:35,556 --> 00:10:37,916 Speaker 1: three times as good as well. So it's an asymmetric bet, 201 00:10:38,356 --> 00:10:41,116 Speaker 1: but it's a fifty to fifty chance of wiping out everything. 202 00:10:41,636 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 1: This just clashes spectacularly with the whole effective altruist desire 203 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 1: to minimize catastrophic risk. My response would be, I'm not 204 00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:54,916 Speaker 1: flipping that coin under any circumstances. There's no odds where 205 00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 1: if there's better than zero odds that wipes out the world. 206 00:10:58,676 --> 00:11:01,876 Speaker 1: I don't even flip the coin. Sam only requires two 207 00:11:01,916 --> 00:11:06,036 Speaker 1: to one odds. This seems nuts, and one of the 208 00:11:06,036 --> 00:11:09,316 Speaker 1: things it speaks to and the Sam bankman free in 209 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:13,436 Speaker 1: the book does this. He does two things as patterns 210 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:17,116 Speaker 1: of behavior. He's pretty blithe about shoveling risk on to 211 00:11:17,196 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: other people, taking risks on behalf of other people. And 212 00:11:22,316 --> 00:11:25,716 Speaker 1: he's pretty blithe about letting other people say things that 213 00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:29,956 Speaker 1: aren't true on his behalf zaying in the book Zaine Tackett, 214 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 1: who was really the original crypto guy. He was in 215 00:11:34,596 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: crypto from the beginning, and they called him the og. 216 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 1: He was sort of the soul of crypto, of old 217 00:11:39,876 --> 00:11:42,876 Speaker 1: crypto that founded its way into Sam's world. And I 218 00:11:42,916 --> 00:11:44,796 Speaker 1: always thought of him as like the moral center of 219 00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:45,156 Speaker 1: the book. 220 00:11:45,316 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 2: What was his job at FTX whatever. 221 00:11:47,436 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 1: They called him, what his job was a sales He 222 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:54,996 Speaker 1: was just managing relations with big crypto speculators. And there's 223 00:11:55,036 --> 00:11:56,876 Speaker 1: a moment I thought of as like a big moment 224 00:11:56,916 --> 00:11:58,836 Speaker 1: when Zaye is walking out of the Bahamas and he's 225 00:11:58,956 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: just really furious that Sam let him lie, that Sam 226 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:05,876 Speaker 1: encouraged him to go and reassure all their friends that 227 00:12:05,956 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 1: everything was okay. And the coin got me thinking about that. 228 00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:13,156 Speaker 1: That that kind of like, really you do that, you 229 00:12:13,196 --> 00:12:14,836 Speaker 1: flip that coin. Now, I don't know if he'd really 230 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:16,476 Speaker 1: do it, and I don't know the content. 231 00:12:16,676 --> 00:12:19,876 Speaker 2: He said that on a podcast also something similar, Yeah, 232 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:22,036 Speaker 2: he said. The host asked him, let's say there's a 233 00:12:22,076 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 2: game fifty one percent you double the Earth out of 234 00:12:24,196 --> 00:12:27,156 Speaker 2: somewhere else forty nine percent it disappears. Would you play 235 00:12:27,156 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 2: the game and would you keep playing that double or nothing? 236 00:12:29,756 --> 00:12:31,396 Speaker 2: And like basically Stam says he would. 237 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:34,836 Speaker 1: That's nuts. Yeah, that's nuts. I mean, that's that's just 238 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:39,276 Speaker 1: that's just insane. You know. It's interesting the Jane Street experience. 239 00:12:39,716 --> 00:12:42,396 Speaker 1: And in Jane Street, he comes away with the feeling 240 00:12:42,476 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 1: that he's really good at finding these fifty one forty 241 00:12:45,716 --> 00:12:49,476 Speaker 1: nine bets and making them. And from Jane Street's point 242 00:12:49,516 --> 00:12:52,316 Speaker 1: of view, that's fine because they have two hundred other 243 00:12:52,356 --> 00:12:55,076 Speaker 1: people making these fifty one forty nine bets. And if 244 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:57,676 Speaker 1: you've got you know, a massive number of people making 245 00:12:57,716 --> 00:12:59,716 Speaker 1: a massive number of bets, event you're going to win 246 00:12:59,796 --> 00:13:02,156 Speaker 1: fifty one percent of the time. And that's fine. But 247 00:13:02,196 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 1: if it's just one person flipping a coin, that's not fine. 248 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:08,036 Speaker 1: That's different. 249 00:13:08,276 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 2: Like it's almost like he took that lesson from Jane 250 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 2: Street but didn't understand the context in which he was 251 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 2: acting in that way. 252 00:13:14,756 --> 00:13:18,636 Speaker 1: I think that's precisely it, this business of there being 253 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:21,276 Speaker 1: a five percent chance of being president of the United States. 254 00:13:21,396 --> 00:13:22,876 Speaker 2: Yes, Caroline says he told her. 255 00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:25,156 Speaker 1: That this is the sort of thing a boyfriend says 256 00:13:25,196 --> 00:13:27,796 Speaker 1: to a girlfriend and a girlfriend should never repeat. Right, 257 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: It's like whatever, like maybe in a moment he had 258 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:35,276 Speaker 1: this thought even before things went bad. If there were 259 00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:38,516 Speaker 1: only twenty Americans, so everybody in theory had a one 260 00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:40,676 Speaker 1: in five chance of being president of the United States, 261 00:13:40,756 --> 00:13:42,836 Speaker 1: and Sam was one of them. I wouldn't give him 262 00:13:42,836 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 1: a one in five chance of being president of the 263 00:13:44,636 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 1: United States. I would say he has about in a 264 00:13:47,396 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 1: group of twenty any twenty randomly selected Americans, he has 265 00:13:50,756 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 1: about a two percent chance. And it's because people sense 266 00:13:54,996 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 1: very quickly when they're with him. He doesn't feel for 267 00:13:57,676 --> 00:13:59,956 Speaker 1: them that he doesn't that he doesn't He doesn't have 268 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:02,996 Speaker 1: that thing, that thing that politicians need, you know, the 269 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 1: empathy thing, even if it's faith, he doesn't. He doesn't 270 00:14:06,836 --> 00:14:10,676 Speaker 1: even fake it very well. So it's funny that that 271 00:14:10,716 --> 00:14:13,876 Speaker 1: thought even crossed his mind. Again, I don't know how 272 00:14:13,916 --> 00:14:16,916 Speaker 1: true or whatever it was, but it did jump out 273 00:14:16,916 --> 00:14:19,436 Speaker 1: of the transcripts. How did it play in the courtroom? 274 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:21,316 Speaker 2: I was in the overflow room. I mean, there were 275 00:14:21,356 --> 00:14:23,676 Speaker 2: some titters in that whole section. The reporters love the 276 00:14:23,716 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 2: insight into Sam's mind and how it works and what 277 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:28,476 Speaker 2: he's thinking about, and the whole time Caroline was talking, 278 00:14:28,516 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 2: and especially when she was talking about her relationship with Sam. 279 00:14:31,396 --> 00:14:33,876 Speaker 2: Everyone was just riveted. Those were the most riveting parts 280 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:37,076 Speaker 2: of her entire testimony. Yeah, but it's not so crazy 281 00:14:37,116 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 2: to think that he would become president when he was 282 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:42,476 Speaker 2: really rich. Really rich people who aren't very empathetic have 283 00:14:42,596 --> 00:14:44,916 Speaker 2: become presidents of the United States in the past. 284 00:14:46,436 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: I can't think of any I mean, this Trump, but 285 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:49,636 Speaker 1: he's not really rich. 286 00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 2: That's a good plaint. 287 00:14:53,276 --> 00:14:56,956 Speaker 1: So are you you're so? Are you always in the 288 00:14:56,956 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 1: overflow room where you sometimes in the main corporo. 289 00:14:58,996 --> 00:15:00,676 Speaker 2: It's a mix. Basically, it's a mix. 290 00:15:00,876 --> 00:15:03,756 Speaker 1: So what are the rules about laughing? 291 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:09,676 Speaker 2: For example, the marshals have never specifically stated any rules 292 00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 2: about laughing. They're very firm about the no electronics, no food, 293 00:15:13,196 --> 00:15:16,276 Speaker 2: only water. I think there's a kind of self regulation 294 00:15:16,356 --> 00:15:19,276 Speaker 2: where we just don't want to feel like we're influencing 295 00:15:19,276 --> 00:15:21,636 Speaker 2: the jury. But in the overflow rooms it's really fun. 296 00:15:21,676 --> 00:15:23,756 Speaker 2: It's really like we're at the movies. People are laughing, 297 00:15:23,796 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 2: they're talking, sacking in with each other. 298 00:15:28,156 --> 00:15:30,316 Speaker 1: So the overflall room may be better in some ways, 299 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:31,996 Speaker 1: so you can actually express yourself. 300 00:15:32,116 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 2: Yes, the overflow room, it feels like I always wish 301 00:15:34,236 --> 00:15:36,396 Speaker 2: I had popcorn. It feels like we're doing an overnight 302 00:15:36,436 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 2: showing of the Rocky Horror Picture Show or something. 303 00:15:40,636 --> 00:15:42,636 Speaker 1: Then one time I've been in the courtroom, I was 304 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:44,596 Speaker 1: so amused I started laughing, and they told me I 305 00:15:44,596 --> 00:15:47,636 Speaker 1: had to leave. Yeah, I thought you couldn't do that. 306 00:15:47,796 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 2: I think we naturally keep it down in the court room. 307 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:53,596 Speaker 2: I mean, it's so formal in there. I don't know 308 00:15:53,596 --> 00:15:55,996 Speaker 2: what courtroom you were. In the atmosphere, it just makes 309 00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:58,596 Speaker 2: laughing feel so beyond the pale that it just hasn't 310 00:15:58,596 --> 00:16:01,116 Speaker 2: even come up right right. 311 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 1: I was shocked. I came up. I'm reading these transcripts 312 00:16:05,796 --> 00:16:07,956 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, did you meet Michael 313 00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:09,916 Speaker 1: Lewis or whenever? Who is like a Lewis? And the 314 00:16:09,956 --> 00:16:12,476 Speaker 1: thing you didn't tell me what you told me? That 315 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 1: I that I come up in some way. What I 316 00:16:14,476 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: didn't realize is that they asked her if I was 317 00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:22,716 Speaker 1: present in the discussions about moving money to the wrong place, 318 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:25,996 Speaker 1: And I thought, what on earth like? But I thought, 319 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:26,996 Speaker 1: thank god she said no. 320 00:16:27,396 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 2: Yeah. 321 00:16:27,796 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 1: I mean, well, why are they asking that? There was something? 322 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 1: They must They must have known the answer before they 323 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:35,116 Speaker 1: asked the question. But the question I was trying to 324 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:37,596 Speaker 1: figure out why were they asking them? Were they asking 325 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 1: that to show that I wasn't in these these special 326 00:16:40,636 --> 00:16:42,516 Speaker 1: meetings between them. I don't know. I don't know. I 327 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:43,756 Speaker 1: couldn't figure out what that was. 328 00:16:44,676 --> 00:16:46,196 Speaker 2: I think that what they were trying to get at 329 00:16:46,356 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 2: is that they were this whole section was about Sam 330 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 2: and the media, and they were showing how Sam was 331 00:16:51,236 --> 00:16:54,436 Speaker 2: very intentionally trying to portray himself a certain way in 332 00:16:54,476 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 2: the media and it wasn't accurate. So I think that 333 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:00,916 Speaker 2: question was kind of getting at the point that you 334 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:03,636 Speaker 2: weren't getting the whole story. He was portraying himself as 335 00:17:03,676 --> 00:17:08,836 Speaker 2: this eccentric, capable leader. I'm speculating here, but I'm thinking 336 00:17:08,836 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 2: maybe they're asking that to say, but actually you weren't 337 00:17:12,356 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 2: seeing the whole thing. You weren't seeing what was happening 338 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:17,236 Speaker 2: behind closed doories, which were these conversations about about. 339 00:17:16,996 --> 00:17:19,436 Speaker 1: Moving money to the wrong place. Now that's true. I 340 00:17:19,516 --> 00:17:21,556 Speaker 1: wasn't present when they were saying the money is in 341 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:24,796 Speaker 1: the wrong place. No one was present when they were 342 00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:27,836 Speaker 1: saying money was in the wrong place. It's funny, though 343 00:17:28,796 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 1: Sam's never broken character so far as I can tell. 344 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:32,956 Speaker 1: Like you go back and talk to people in high school, 345 00:17:32,996 --> 00:17:35,436 Speaker 1: he was just like you know, the the high schoolassmates says, 346 00:17:35,436 --> 00:17:38,876 Speaker 1: the same guy. High school classmates I've talked to are 347 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: shocked when they've seen him because they assumed that, especially 348 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:46,036 Speaker 1: before it all collapsed, they assumed that there was no 349 00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: way the person they knew could have become a billionaire. 350 00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: And they assumed like he changed, and they realized that 351 00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:55,436 Speaker 1: the world changed, and he was the same guy with 352 00:17:55,476 --> 00:17:58,436 Speaker 1: the funny roly backpack. And I mean, I've spent way 353 00:17:58,516 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: too much time with him for him to be acting 354 00:18:00,236 --> 00:18:01,956 Speaker 1: all the time. I mean, and that was true even 355 00:18:01,996 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 1: before it collapsed. So what I'm saying is what I 356 00:18:05,556 --> 00:18:09,036 Speaker 1: think happened. And it's the story. Here is pr person 357 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:14,716 Speaker 1: Natalie tells is he goes from being when they create FTX, 358 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:17,436 Speaker 1: then you have to promote it. How do you promote it? 359 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:20,676 Speaker 1: It's the person who is the CEO. And Natalie's there 360 00:18:20,756 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 1: and she says, he's so weird, but it may be 361 00:18:24,876 --> 00:18:27,556 Speaker 1: weird will work. I'm not going to even try to 362 00:18:27,636 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 1: change him. And she throws him on Bloomberg Television and 363 00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 1: she looks him because he's exactly as he is, and 364 00:18:33,396 --> 00:18:36,396 Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. It works. They're eating it up. And I 365 00:18:36,436 --> 00:18:39,476 Speaker 1: think it's more true that they ate him up as 366 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:42,716 Speaker 1: he was, you know, playing video games while he is 367 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 1: on the television sloppy stream of consciousness, smart, you know, 368 00:18:48,556 --> 00:18:51,996 Speaker 1: a little too open and transparent, seemingly, and so he 369 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:53,956 Speaker 1: just went with it. And there might have been times 370 00:18:53,996 --> 00:18:56,476 Speaker 1: with it he was a slightly exaggerated version of that, 371 00:18:56,756 --> 00:18:57,956 Speaker 1: but that's actually who he is. 372 00:18:58,276 --> 00:18:59,796 Speaker 2: He went with it, and then it worked, and then 373 00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:02,036 Speaker 2: he really leaned into it, right. I mean, the prosecutors 374 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:04,876 Speaker 2: were bringing up how originally he slept in his being 375 00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 2: bagchair a lot, maybe in Hong Kong, but once they 376 00:19:06,956 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 2: got to the Bahamas, he didn't really sleep in his 377 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:13,316 Speaker 2: being back chair, according to I think said that. 378 00:19:13,876 --> 00:19:16,636 Speaker 1: And his prietory spent less time as being back chair. 379 00:19:17,716 --> 00:19:21,796 Speaker 1: That was true because in Hong Kong, the housing was 380 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:25,116 Speaker 1: shitty and the offices were really nice. In the Bahamas, 381 00:19:25,196 --> 00:19:27,836 Speaker 1: the offices were shitty, and the and the condos they 382 00:19:27,876 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 1: lived in were really nice. And Nashad Sam, they all 383 00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:33,476 Speaker 1: complained about it. They hated it. They would have heard 384 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,356 Speaker 1: ferd ash shitty housing and a really nice office, so 385 00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:39,596 Speaker 1: nobody wanted to leave the office. So there's no point 386 00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:41,716 Speaker 1: in Sam living in the office when nobody was there 387 00:19:41,756 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: because they didn't want to be there. In the in 388 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:45,956 Speaker 1: the Hong Kong and the employees were there all the time, 389 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 1: and in the Bahamas is just like you couldn't be 390 00:19:48,636 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 1: there all the time. And the tick about the sleeping 391 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:54,396 Speaker 1: in the being back chair, it isn't to reveal his eccentricity. 392 00:19:54,716 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 1: That's not why he does it. It's because he's really 393 00:19:56,956 --> 00:20:01,116 Speaker 1: uncomfortable sleeping alone. He wouldn't stay in his hotel rooms 394 00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 1: when he traveled. He'd go curl up in another employees 395 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:06,956 Speaker 1: on their sofa in their room because he just I 396 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:09,556 Speaker 1: don't know what that is, but he was really comfortable 397 00:20:09,556 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 1: sleeping in a room by himself, and I think the 398 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:16,796 Speaker 1: bemback chair when people were there was comforting. So he 399 00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 1: wasn't like sleeping on the bean bag to show me 400 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:20,996 Speaker 1: he was sleeping on the bean bag. They didn't get 401 00:20:21,036 --> 00:20:21,716 Speaker 1: that sense. 402 00:20:21,996 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 2: What about Carolyn said that when they arrived in the Bahamas, 403 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 2: they got these fancy cars and then they Sam traded 404 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:30,196 Speaker 2: it in for a more shady car because he didn't 405 00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 2: want his image to be having this fancy car. 406 00:20:32,716 --> 00:20:37,276 Speaker 1: So that's possibly true. So that story is Ryan Salem, 407 00:20:37,476 --> 00:20:41,036 Speaker 1: who was the Department of Spending, and who bought all 408 00:20:41,076 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 1: the condos. You let Ryan Salem loose with a blank 409 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 1: check book, and it was unbelievable what he would do. Sam. 410 00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:49,316 Speaker 1: I remember Sam saying, Ryan just does shit no one 411 00:20:49,356 --> 00:20:51,636 Speaker 1: would do, no other person would do. Go to the 412 00:20:51,676 --> 00:20:54,036 Speaker 1: Bahamas and then a week accumulate three hundred million dollars 413 00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 1: of property and buy a piece of land for a 414 00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:59,596 Speaker 1: three hundred million dollar office site, and in addition, by 415 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 1: Sam a fancy car. So Sam didn't asked for a car. 416 00:21:03,076 --> 00:21:06,156 Speaker 1: Ryan just presented him with his BMW and Sam didn't 417 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: want it. And Ryan was like, like, dude, you're worth 418 00:21:10,316 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 1: twenty two billion dollars to get a nice car, and 419 00:21:12,236 --> 00:21:15,636 Speaker 1: SAMSI just don't want a nice car. Now, I'm maybe 420 00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:18,236 Speaker 1: that was the motive. But if that was the motive, 421 00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 1: why live in a thirty eight million dollar condo? I mean, 422 00:21:21,716 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's not really working if you're 423 00:21:24,356 --> 00:21:27,836 Speaker 1: if you're selling I'm an asthetic and I don't care 424 00:21:27,836 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 1: about material possessions. Why fly on a private jet? Everybody 425 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 1: knew about that. He certainly wasn't consistent in selling this image, 426 00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:36,756 Speaker 1: and so I don't know, I don't know how much. 427 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:39,116 Speaker 1: He actually thought about that. He may have set it 428 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: to Caroline at some point. It doesn't really does It 429 00:21:42,036 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a strong point. So a couple more 430 00:21:45,516 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 1: questions about the courtroom. Are you still having fun? 431 00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:51,076 Speaker 2: Yes, it's still really fun. 432 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:55,716 Speaker 1: The transcripts aren't boring reads to me, and I was 433 00:21:55,756 --> 00:21:58,156 Speaker 1: wondering if it's just me. But it doesn't seem to 434 00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:01,916 Speaker 1: get very slow in the exchanges. The judge seems to 435 00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:03,476 Speaker 1: do a really good job or run in the room. 436 00:22:03,676 --> 00:22:06,556 Speaker 2: Yeah he does. He has this phrase tempest fugut, time flies. 437 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:09,356 Speaker 2: He tries to keep things moving. 438 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:11,436 Speaker 1: Couldn't he just say time flies? 439 00:22:11,996 --> 00:22:14,116 Speaker 2: Yes? But this way I got to be like, thank gosh, 440 00:22:14,116 --> 00:22:15,036 Speaker 2: I'm minored in Latin. 441 00:22:18,276 --> 00:22:20,196 Speaker 1: He seems to have a sense of humor. He is. 442 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 2: He's very funny. We'll be back in a minute with 443 00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 2: one last thing. 444 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 1: So let me ask you what do they say is 445 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:31,556 Speaker 1: coming next? 446 00:22:32,316 --> 00:22:34,556 Speaker 2: I think the prosecution is going to spend about one 447 00:22:34,556 --> 00:22:37,316 Speaker 2: more week and they're going to bring a bunch of witnesses, 448 00:22:37,476 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 2: including Nishad Sing And you wrote a lot about Nishad 449 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 2: in your book, so I'm curious what you are thinking 450 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:46,316 Speaker 2: about and wondering about before we hear from Nishad. 451 00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: So when I think of what Nishad's role was on 452 00:22:49,836 --> 00:22:51,716 Speaker 1: the ORG chart on the inside of the flap of 453 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:53,916 Speaker 1: the book, he's whatever he is. I can't even remember 454 00:22:53,956 --> 00:22:56,196 Speaker 1: what they called him, but what he was right from 455 00:22:56,196 --> 00:23:00,796 Speaker 1: the beginning was the emotional intelligence unit. All the emotional 456 00:23:00,836 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 1: fallout from Sam Bankman Freed found its way into Nishad's office, 457 00:23:05,036 --> 00:23:09,156 Speaker 1: and so he was constantly just soothing upset people. And 458 00:23:09,516 --> 00:23:11,196 Speaker 1: there was a line I didn't actually make it into 459 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:13,956 Speaker 1: the book, but I can remember him saying about Sam 460 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:17,356 Speaker 1: not long before everything collapsed, that one of the things 461 00:23:17,356 --> 00:23:20,156 Speaker 1: that impressed him about Sam was that he'd started with 462 00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:23,956 Speaker 1: zero EQ, but he'd subcontracted some of his IQ to 463 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:26,756 Speaker 1: create some EQ and it wasn't as bad as it 464 00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:28,916 Speaker 1: was in the beginning. And he said, if you saw 465 00:23:28,956 --> 00:23:31,556 Speaker 1: Sam three years ago, you would think if the Sam 466 00:23:31,596 --> 00:23:33,676 Speaker 1: you see now is just so much better than the 467 00:23:33,676 --> 00:23:36,916 Speaker 1: Sam of three years ago. But all the problems in 468 00:23:36,956 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 1: the world found their way to the Shod. He was 469 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:41,996 Speaker 1: a little bit like the Green Mile character, like he 470 00:23:42,036 --> 00:23:45,276 Speaker 1: would he'd hold hands with whatever the person was, that 471 00:23:45,356 --> 00:23:48,276 Speaker 1: all the pain would be absorbed into the shod. And 472 00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 1: he also I mean, I'm sure this is going to 473 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:54,636 Speaker 1: come out in the trial. But when everything was unraveling, 474 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:57,996 Speaker 1: he was begging Sam to say that the shot had 475 00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:00,636 Speaker 1: nothing to do with what had happened. He was begging 476 00:24:00,676 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 1: Sam to kind of make a statement, and there's an 477 00:24:03,196 --> 00:24:06,276 Speaker 1: exchange about that in the book, So I'd be interesting 478 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:08,076 Speaker 1: how it comes off. Another thing you really need to 479 00:24:08,076 --> 00:24:10,716 Speaker 1: know about him is that he was Sam's little brother's 480 00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: best friend in high school. And Sam's parents were unbelievably 481 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:18,916 Speaker 1: important to Nashad as a kid. As Shad told me, 482 00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 1: they were the first grown ups whoever took me seriously, 483 00:24:21,396 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 1: and so I started to take myself a bit more seriously. 484 00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:27,556 Speaker 1: So what you got in the courtroom is maybe even 485 00:24:27,556 --> 00:24:30,156 Speaker 1: more drama than in a way than Caroline, because the 486 00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 1: family did never really get to know her. Nashad was 487 00:24:32,556 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: almost part of their family, and he's about to get 488 00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:40,756 Speaker 1: on the witness stand and testify against against Sam. 489 00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:43,756 Speaker 2: Michaelis thank you so much for talking to me, thanks. 490 00:24:43,476 --> 00:24:46,836 Speaker 1: For filling me in LJ, and I will come. I 491 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:48,596 Speaker 1: promise I'll be there for a few days at least 492 00:24:48,596 --> 00:24:52,596 Speaker 1: at the end of the all. This episode of Judging 493 00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:56,596 Speaker 1: Sam was hosted by me Michael Lewis, Lydia Jane Cott 494 00:24:56,676 --> 00:25:00,156 Speaker 1: is our court reporter. Catherine Gerardeau and Nisha Venken produced 495 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:03,676 Speaker 1: this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was 496 00:25:03,716 --> 00:25:07,876 Speaker 1: composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Symphonette. 497 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:11,716 Speaker 1: Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a 498 00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:14,156 Speaker 1: question or comment for me, There's a website for that 499 00:25:14,796 --> 00:25:21,356 Speaker 1: atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To 500 00:25:21,396 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 501 00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:29,036 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like 502 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:32,916 Speaker 1: to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, don't forget 503 00:25:32,956 --> 00:25:35,716 Speaker 1: to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin 504 00:25:35,756 --> 00:25:41,476 Speaker 1: dot fm, slash Plus, or on our Apple show page