WEBVTT - Encryption Laws Stifling Growth With Alex Saunders 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.840 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make conformed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.520 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.160 this started. Hello and welcome to another episode of the 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:32.919 Market Disruptors podcast. Today I'm joined with Alexanders from Nuggets 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.040 News Australia. He's been reporting the news for quite some time, 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.920 always has really great insights and so I'm really happy 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.000 to have you on the show. Welcome Alex, thanks for 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.960 having me. I'm looking forward to getting into it today. Yeah. 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.760 So we've had a couple of good conversations uh in 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:50.839 the past, sharing information back and forth. It's always always 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:52.919 a treat to talk to you about. Just for those 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:54.640 that don't know who you are, why don't you give 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.279 us a little bit of a background of of kind 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:57.680 of how you get into the space and what you're 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.760 doing currently. Long story, are sure. I was a pharmacist 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:03.960 by trade, but I always loved investing and then I 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.640 lost a favorit of money in the GFC when my 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.360 parents gave me some shares. That was my twenty first birthday. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.920 So I went down the investing rabbit hole. I wanted 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.840 to learn about how banks, debt and money works. Became 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.240 a bit of a libertarian cipherpunk and read zero hedge 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.000 and that's where I found big coined in two thousand 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.679 and twelve. And that's obviously a bigger rabbit hole that 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.360 most people know whence you fall down. Uh. And then 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.600 in two thousands and seventeen I was able to quit 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.920 my job and really start doing crypto education, trading investing 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.440 full time. And so we've been doing that now for 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:38.319 nearly nearly three years across Australia and YouTube and a 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.240 bit of everything where we try and educate people and 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.080 everything that's going on in the space. Yeah, and it's 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.480 been great. You've been given some really good insights into 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.640 the markets and I appreciate that. So lately there's been 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.240 quite some news coming out of Australia and so I 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:54.680 wanted to get your take on NAP. You know, overall, 0:01:55.160 --> 0:02:01.400 bitcoin cryptocurrencies is cryptography, right, So it's in cryption and 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.440 that's obviously this this massive trend that we're having and 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.840 it goes into philosophical debates of privacy and things like that. 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:13.520 But in regards to cryptography encryption, Australia has taken some 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.639 pretty tough stances on that. I think about a year 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.840 ago um forcing companies to build a back door, and 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.560 then today with some unlocking laws. What do you see 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.680 about that? Yes, so there's a bill called the a 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.920 a Bill and it's all about having access to encryption 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.960 and apps and for government asked you to build a 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.760 back door or hand over some information. That employee has 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.840 to do that. And the other thing is they can't 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.919 tell their boss of their company that they've been told 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:44.600 they have to do this. They can actually go to 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.160 jail themselves. So some people are saying, how on earth 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.440 can you ban encryption and Australia believe that they're above 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.880 the laws of mathematics and software. So we haven't even 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.600 seen any cases being just disputed yet about how this 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.480 is all going to work in the real world. But 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.480 that's kind of what they're going at, along with another 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.040 bill where you have to hand over all your passwords 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.360 and pin numbers. There was a gentleman that went her 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.240 video and viral of him coming through Sydney Airport and 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.400 they took his laptop and they actually took all the 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.280 data off it. And he was a software engineer, so 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.440 he was able to check what they've done to his laptop, 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:21.799 whereas a lot of other people maybe wouldn't have known. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.640 So there's a few different laws going on at the 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.200 moment um. And yeah, they're pushing this one as a 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.160 fine up to five years in jail if you don't 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.920 hand over all your passwords and all your data. And 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.480 that's not just in airports anymore, that's anywhere on the street. 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:37.760 But as I say, we haven't really seen any cases 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.680 of this yet, but it's certainly they're in the law, 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.960 and that's pretty worrying. It's definitely worrying that there was 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.000 a lot I thought about a year ago roughly that 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.160 was that companies had to start building a back door 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:51.840 in Did that go through or is that just a 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.680 bill so that that is in in law, But as 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:57.640 I said, well, it's not. The companies don't have to 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.720 do it immediately. They have to be able to do 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.640 it if they get issued a warrant. I believe that's 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:04.560 how it works. So a lot of the tech companies 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:10.000 aren't based in Australia. But if you're serving Australian individuals. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.360 In theory, if they issue a warrant to Facebook, do 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.400 they have to build this back door? I know we 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.000 saw a few years ago Apple really pushed back against that. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.200 So we're waiting to probably see the first case of 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.279 this play out. Yeah, that's interesting. The way it seems 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.599 that it normally works is not even the laws aren't 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.359 really so much we're the companies at but we're the 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.880 customers that company is servicing. So if that company was 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.719 a US based company like Apple for example, or even 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:42.640 in a different jurisdiction because they're servicing Australian customers, potentially 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.000 they could be liable to that right. Absolutely, very similar 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.120 to what we see with the European customers and those 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.360 new laws. Now, yeah, but how many people are even 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.040 aware of this stuff or care? And I think it's 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.719 once we have that first be incident of someone losing 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.760 all their data, and remember once the government has this 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.160 that they store and we sell these data breaches all 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:05.880 the time, So yes, it's over it's overarching. I don't 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.280 know how government can even think that they're able to 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.120 do this and enforce this. We haven't really had any 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.559 bad instances in Australia, but it seems that we're becoming 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:18.240 the most heavily policed. Another law or bill was proposed 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.320 this week where they're installing a number of cameras around 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.320 cities with AI that look into your car and see 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.920 what you're doing. And they're talking about this as getting 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:29.800 people that are on their phones and catching it. But 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.960 obviously they're going to collect all this data watch what 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.960 people doing in their cars. Um, we really are becoming 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:39.039 heavily surpailed. It's it's just really scary, isn't it. I mean, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:41.760 what is it they need all that for? Right? I 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.000 think you said you kind of went down the libertarian 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:46.599 rabbit hole a little bit and kind of like the 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.680 basics of that would be like if I'm not hurting anybody, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:56.279 leave me alone. And this is almost like everybody is guilty, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:06:00.000 we just need to catch them, right would you say that? Yeah? 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.440 And Australia, as I said, doesn't have a lot of 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:04.520 problems with terrorism. I think we've had, you know, one 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.640 instance in the past ten years, we've got the you know, 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.920 we don't have a lot of firearms in our society. 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.279 We don't have problems with with that sort of crime. 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.279 So I just don't know why we need to be 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:20.280 so heavily surveilled when we're peaceful place for at the time, Well, 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.680 I think we understand why. Right. It's it's always a 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.200 matter of control, right, So it's a matter of if 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.400 you can control the information, you can control the people. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.880 And I think in today's age it's even more scary 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.839 because now through you know, Facebook and social media and whatnot, 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.719 they're using like artificial intelligence to even um show you 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:39.640 what they want to show you so that you can 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.320 develop the way they want you to develop. And then 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.960 if they're surveilling you, they can see if you're diverting 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.839 down that path. Right, Yeah, that's fantastic. Have you seen 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.679 the documentary I forget the name now with a Cambridge 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.720 Analytica and they spoke about all that sort of thing 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.480 where you can direct you know, people towards maybe voting 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.760 for Brexit or Trump if they otherwise wouldn't have. But 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.679 we definitely see that, and I know last week Facebook 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.320 brought that company with the mind reading bracelets. Have you 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.120 seen this yet? No, I haven't seen anything about the 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.600 main reading um but I did see in twenty sixteen. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.280 Uh it, Well, when all that stuff came out about 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.840 Cambridge Analytica. Um, they found out that in twenty Facebook 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:27.000 had been practicing, um, putting different news feeds to different 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.080 people to see if they could change their moods and 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:33.560 stuff like that. So they've been experimenting on us basically. Yeah, absolutely, 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.000 and that it really is explained well in that documentary. 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.640 And they peek on the people that are on the 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.720 fence or undecided and the people that have a certain 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.760 mindset already, they only continue to show you that type 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.080 of information, so then you get that echo chamber effect 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.040 where you're never going to change your mind and be 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.680 set in your way. So yeah, it's interesting where this 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:54.600 is all going, and I think be tech of being 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.320 maybe called to account a little bit more. In the 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.360 US we see a few more trials and a lot 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.080 of pushback, but in Australia it seems like they're going 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.760 the whole hold straight away. I'm wondering, was the was 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:11.720 a Netflix special called Secrets of Silicon Valley. Uh no, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.800 no it wasn't. Um It'll it'll come to me though, Okay, 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:16.840 I have that written down as one that I should 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:20.320 watch someone recommended to me, so UM, I looked it 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.280 up and That's why I was asking. But that's okay. 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.400 But you know, so it's interesting to see obviously, like 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.960 I said, with cryptocurrency and being cryptography, being encryption, how 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.360 does the you know, how how does this continue to grow? 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.720 Crypt cryptography, encryption, crypto, cryptocurrencies, How does it continue to grow? 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.839 When you have countries like Australia, which I'm sure is 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.360 not going to be the only one really cracking down 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:48.560 against cryptocurrencies. What do you think happens with that? Yeah, 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.800 I mean another thing that Australia proposing at the moment 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.480 is the cash band over ten thousand dollars and they're 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.440 talking about bringing that to down to five or even 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.040 two thou dollars, and I want to include cryptocurrencies if 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:01.840 crypto becomes, you know, a payment system that people are 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.000 using day to day. So what does that? What does 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.040 that mean? A cash band? So they're not going to 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.080 let you pay someone if you want to buy a 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:12.400 car for the two thousand dollars. Secondhand, you can't pay 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.040 in cash. They're banning cash payments over a certain threshold. 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.480 And we believe that this is all part of the 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:19.720 road to negative interest rates, where they don't want people 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.440 to be able to take cash out of banks slowly 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.839 and slowly and steady. But included in that is cryptocurrency 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.080 and as well as this ban on encryption they're pushing. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.720 But despite all of this, it's how how do you 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.880 possibly police it? And Andreas talks about this a lot. 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:36.720 Once you're in the crypto ecosystem and you have your 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.000 bitcoin or your manarow, and you've got all your wallets, 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.400 as long as this stuff isn't attached to exchanges, that's 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.240 the only really thing that they can plex, the on 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.560 ramps and off ramps. So if you can find a 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.120 job or a way to earn a little bit of cryptocurrency, 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:53.280 and you keep your an amenity online, how do they say, well, 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.640 you know, you know a lot of pay mark two 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.360 thousand dollars in bitcoin. If he helps you edit a video, 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:00.720 there's no way for them to possibly know, you know, 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.840 we've sent that, except where you're using an encrypted wallet, 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.600 which they have a back door to. So now they're 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.800 looking inside your wallet and the senior depositing withdraws. Yeah, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.880 and let's say that I set up um uh Jack's wallet, 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.160 a bread bullet and engine wallet whatever it is. If 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.440 I've in stole that on my computer and I'm using 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.280 a VAPN. Again, how do they possibly know I've done 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.680 that on my own device. I really think if you're 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:27.960 if you have to be savvy. But there's still ways 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.640 to maintain privacy, even in Australia. Yeah, I think, you know, 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.959 I mean, there's there's definitely that argument. And and I'm 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:35.760 sure in Australia, just like anywhere in the rest of 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.640 the world, passing a low to make something illegal doesn't 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.680 stop it by any means. And and and we have 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.400 history that actually shows the opposite, Like during the prohibition 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:45.960 in the United States, you know, alcohol took off really 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.000 big and and obviously since the War on Drugs has 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.160 been around since about the seventies, drugs is only drugs 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.240 have only gotten bigger. Um And so you look at 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.880 things like, you know, marijuana, which requires you to you know, 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.719 plan aunt something and water it, and you have to 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.080 have room, you have to grow it, and you have 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.040 to harvest and do all these things, and and then 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.360 transport it and their smells and there's all these issues 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.440 and hasn't stopped that. They can't even keep it out 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.360 of a prison, the most you know, arguably the most 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.520 secure place in the world. So how are they gonna 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.760 ban a completely digital encrypted thing, right, So, um, it's 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.679 gonna be really hard, I guess. Yeah. We see like 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.240 a premium on bitcoin in places like Career or China 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.280 when we have a crackdown. As you say, drugs are bands, 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.439 and I think Istra has some of the most expensive 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.360 drugs in the world. You know, the average process of 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.320 say cocaine, I think it's three hundred dollars here, where 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.439 it's close to the thirty dollars you know, you know 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.120 a lot of other places around the world, and that's 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.080 because of the premium that it's placed by making something 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.840 illegal and creating black and gray markets. Yeah. Yeah, So 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.920 I'm just curious overall. I mean, how how has this 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.920 impacted you or what do you think how it's impacted Australia. 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:55.680 I mean, are you seen do you think this is 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.360 a negative for people of Australia in a sense where 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.960 maybe you don't have the jobs, are the companies there, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.520 Maybe the companies are going to be moving out of 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:05.560 the country. I mean, this is going to affect your kids, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.280 your grandkids. Oh. We've definitely seen some pushback from the 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.199 tech companies and one of the things just zooming out 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.040 about our economies that we've become to rely on the 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.320 housing market and you know the mining boom with China, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.160 and we don't have those high paying tech jobs. And 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.000 we talked to a lot of people in recruiting and 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.280 they can't convince people to come and work in Australia 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.400 of course of things like the encryption laws. Um, it's 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.120 pretty expensive to leave. So I think it's actually all 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.360 bad for our economy longer term. But yeah, if you're 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.559 a tech company with these laws on earth, would you 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.320 want to start up in Australia where you can move 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:42.320 over to Southeast Asia or anywhere else. Yeah, it's always 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.800 like the government's always talking about stimulating the economy and 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.520 creating jobs and doing these things right, but really they 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.760 can't do any of that. Well, the only thing they 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.320 can do is get out of the way or you know, 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.520 take their boot off your neck, right. Um. And so 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.240 with all these policies is that are meant to protect 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.000 and to stimulate, Really what they do is just squash 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.800 and drive away. It seems like, yeah, I know you've 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:08.600 probably spoken about this a lot as well. You know, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.160 central banks of these levers of interest rates and money creation, 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.960 and that's how they stimulate in their minds. But what 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.480 we're saying, like right now being debated is central banks 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.839 saying well, monetary policy is at its limits, and they're 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:23.400 going to turn around the governments and say it was 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.640 as your photo, or you need to do more fiscally 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.400 and spend more and great jobs, whereas governments are going 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.360 to say, hold on, central banks, you've been telling us 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.760 that you're in control and monacy, monetary policy works. Now 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.120 it's clear that it hasn't, and you're gonna blame us. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.280 And as you say, the real jobs and innovation and 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:43.280 growth comes from that free market and entrepreneurs. Yeah, yeah, 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.560 that's interesting. That's actually something we were talking about before 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.200 we went before we started recording, we went live and 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.960 we were talking about the price of bitcoin um and 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.600 right now you know, it's down, it's looking like it's 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.320 going back up, and we're just gonna talk about that 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.840 real quickly. And I told you how you know some 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:01.400 and I was talking to someone last night and they're 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.000 asking me, he's it gonna go back down? Should I wait? 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:04.880 Should I get back in? What's and asked me my prediction? 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:06.640 And I said, look, I don't I don't look for 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:10.040 that forecast, I said. The forecast I'm looking at is 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.720 the seventeen trillion dollars of negative yielding debt or the 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.320 FED injecting money or whatever. So the points that you're 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.560 bringing up um and you're right, uh, those are the 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.920 things that are are driving bitcoin for sure. I think 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:25.880 one thing, you know, I've been studying this for a 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.360 long time, as as you have really dove in. Once 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.800 the you know GFC as you called it, the Great 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.840 Financial Crass two tho really took off. It seemed like 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.440 as over you know, two thousand ten, two thousand twelve UM, 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.440 the central banks of the world, we're basically just going 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.800 all in on qu e QB infinity UM. And once 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.560 interest rates hit zero, we thought they would have no 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.040 leverage left. As you said, they can just lower rates 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.600 and inject money. But now they've broken through zero. Now 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.400 they're negative right, So then like, where's the bottom on that? Now? 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.000 It's funny when he sat to think about where this 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.160 goes in the in the next cycle or the second 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.720 or third depression recession that we have, and you think, well, 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.120 what afraid to get to negative ten? What's happening there 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.880 is that if you've got a mortgage, ten percent of 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.880 that is actually been eroded or paid off for you 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.720 each year, and yeah, where does this go? And people 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:21.920 kind of get excited when they hear think stuff like that, 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:23.880 Oh geez, ten percent of my mortgage gets paid off 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:25.680 a year. But you have to understand that things would 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.880 be so bad at that time that you probably wouldn't 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.440 have a job, or you know, your partner wouldn't have 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.680 a job in the economy would be exploding. So where 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.360 does this all go? I think bitcoin is having this, 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.000 as you say, whether you want to think about it 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.760 as a life raft. With the limited number of seats 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:46.560 or property, we know that it's scarce, and what are 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.800 people going to pay to get a little bit of 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.280 land or a seat on that boat at a time 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.520 when all fear money and currencies are just being inflated 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.600 away to pay off unfunded liabilities, trying to base their 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.920 currency in currency wars, and bitcoin isn't getting stronger or 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:04.720 going up in price. It's not the way to think 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.000 of it. You just have to think of it that 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.120 it's becoming more and more scarce relative to everything else 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.640 that's happening around us. Yeah, that's a good way to 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.640 put it. Now, a lot of people think that bitcoin 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.280 is not scarce because anybody can just copy it and 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.720 make their own crypto. And there's thousands of cryptocurrencies, So 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.800 what do you say about that. I think initially the 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.360 first four becoin cash, there was a fairly decent chunk, 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.760 let's call it ten percent of the community that weren't 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.120 happy with the block size and their debate, so they 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:33.800 can go off and do their own being it's a 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.720 free market, it's it's anti fragile. Becoin becomes stronger, and 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.160 then next off we saw bitcoin gold and maybe that 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.800 was one percent, and now we've got bitcoin you know whatever. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.000 There's probably thirty or fifty folks out there, and they 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.720 all become smaller and smaller and less relevant, and they 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.960 can they can tinker and try different things. But yeah, 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.960 it is just making bitcoin stronger and stronger. Imagine, you know, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.040 the government would say you're allowed of folk bitcoin. That 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.440 would be their response, and then people would maybe want 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.320 the thing you're not allowed to have, and it makes 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.200 it a little bit more exclusive. But in this frame market, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.800 bitcoin is just powered ahead and the head and look 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:10.439 at the bitcoin dominance, you know, in regards to the folks, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.000 not just in regards to oap cooins where it's absorbing 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.680 market share, is a lot of the other projects people 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.280 realize they're no good. They turned back to Bitcoin, but 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.080 in terms of its dominance against the other folks, it's 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.399 just getting stronger and stronger. So, yeah, you have as 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.600 many folks as you want, but they don't have the 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.760 community or network effects. Yeah. It's kind of like, um, 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.520 like if you had a rare piece of art like 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.960 the Mona Lisa, and you can make as many prints 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:35.359 and put it on T shirts and put it on 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.040 mugs and make posters for your house and make as 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:39.800 many copy as if you want, but it doesn't diminish 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.199 the value of the original exactly. That's really good by 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.240 to put it. Yeah. Yeah, so you can make all 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.119 these cryptos that you want, but it's not going to 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.199 take away from the original bitcoin. Um. But but we 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.800 do have all these different cryptos we have, I don't know, 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.080 at least I'm guessing if not more. And I get 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.440 it that summers start serving different needs. They're all they're 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.680 all not aim to be the new minetary base layer. 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:03.439 One of the things that was in the news this 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.800 week was this new Crypto Readings Council, and it's kind 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.080 of like, what is it like a kind of a 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:14.959 self regulated industry insiders kind of reading agency. What are 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.960 you seeing about that? Yes, so I think it was 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:19.760 coin based cracking. You know, a lot of the more 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.280 reputable exchanges that have been around for a while come 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.960 together with this rating system of where they think something 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:29.239 is on a fully decentralized versus possibly as security, and 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.520 a few of their decisions were interesting. A lot of 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.879 the coins that they've got listed, like XRP or Maker 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.080 scored four and four and a half out of five 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.040 in terms of yes they are likely securities, which kind 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.080 of surprises me a bit that they admit that they 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:47.080 were listing securities as those exchanges. Something like Maker is 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.639 one of the first dows out there is in it 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:54.000 is a decentralized autonomous organization and all the token holders 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.679 have a right to help vote and make decisions. So 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.080 maybe that's where they're thinking that it's more of a security. 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.800 But it's not you know, one business or a group 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.479 of people, it's all those thousands of token holders. So 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.800 I'm not really sure why a few things got the 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.880 ratings they did, but those currencies like bitcoin and lightcoin 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:13.560 that have been around for a while, they didn't have 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.320 any pre minds and they're just centralized. I think that's 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.840 as safe as you can get in terms of listing. 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.240 And that's why a lot of the time we see UM, 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:26.200 even Wall Street and investment funds they add Bitcoin, ethereum 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.280 and lightcoin first off, because they're the ones that have 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.240 been around the longest, the most decentralized in terms of 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.960