WEBVTT - Part One: Lesbian Mutual AID During the AIDS Crisis 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.680 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.560 Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.160 your weekly podcast that when there's bad things, there's good 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.640 things too. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.239 today is one of my favorite returning guests, Andrew Tea. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.400 Oh thanks, Hi. 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.959 I always get excited when you're the guest, because well, 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.000 I like all my guests equally. Yeah, I can't. I 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:28.000 can't show any preference. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.800 Yeah, don't do that. There's no call for this line 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:32.040 of flattery. But thank you. 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:35.479 Enter t is the host of the podcast EO is 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.839 this racist? And also, okay, this specific flattery I think 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:41.520 I could do. You're my favorite guests to talk about 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:42.319 mutual aid with. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.360 Oh, thank you. Yeah. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:47.680 Well, I feel like I probably comment at it from 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.800 a good place of I'm pretty new. 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.880 To it all things considered, and. 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.760 You know, I've kind of like been around, but there 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.200 have been times in my life when I was more 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.520 involved in less and yeah, i've been, you know lately 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.280 because of how things have been going in LA and 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.120 I guess the world trying to really really double down 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.800 and just make sure whatever community we have is as 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:14.720 strong as it can be. 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:17.959 I mean that makes sense. I think that a lot 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:19.759 of it isn't an EBB and a flow, Like I'm 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.080 not directly doing mutual aid right now, besides like some 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:27.640 specific friends or whatever here and there, you know. But yeah, okay, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.880 So my question before I even get into the topic. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.280 You live in a city that very famously didn't quite 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.840 burn down recently? Yeah, how's that going? How are mutual 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:38.240 aid efforts going out there? 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:38.480 Like? 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:39.479 How things been? 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.440 I mean, I feel like from my perspective, it was 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.200 very impressive. I well, I guess I don't know, because 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:50.200 I feel like I'm more plugged in than I ever 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:53.640 have been. So I was able to be on through 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.520 Solidarity and snacks folks. I was able to which is 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:01.800 a group that I mostly do work with, and so 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:03.520 I was able to like kind of get in and 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.000 least see like a lot of the chat and the 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.840 chatter and the planning from the early side of things. 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.880 So that to me it was very impressive. I don't know. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.680 Maybe I'm sure people with more experience this is maybe 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.200 pretty normal, but or maybe not. 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:18.680 I don't know. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.000 I don't have any basis for evaluating how actually impressive 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:23.639 it is, but it seemed. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:24.360 Very impressive to me. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.080 The thing I was mostly focused on was trying to 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.560 get masks out to. 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.799 The sort of larger population, especially on house. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.560 Folks down on skid Row because the air quality was 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.040 so unbelievably bad. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:42.919 I guess it still is, but. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.280 Yeah, so but it was nice watching like warehouses essentially 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.000 pop up at various like a lot of bike shops, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:56.120 a lot of gallery spaces, a lot of little warehouse 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:02.639 like work type spaces, and seeing things get distributed as 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.240 efficiently I think as they could be. And also just 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.480 kind of being cognizant of what needs are much harder 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.480 to meet with just community, you know, obviously none of 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.520 us had access. Maybe not obviously, and maybe I don't know, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.880 maybe things have changed sort of muted the signal group 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:23.080 because it was pretty high traffic, what relatable you know, 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.600 we don't have things like bulldozers or like super high 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:32.920 end ppe. Yeah, and so there were limits to what 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:33.680 could be done. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.000 Well, let me give you a piece of advice about bulldozers. Yeah, 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.720 they're all keyed the same based on the manufacturer. 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.080 Just throwing that out there. Yeah, good to know, Good 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:45.360 to know. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:50.640 Anyway, there also largely wasn't that type of need, so 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.160 who knows what would have happened if things needed to 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.000 truly happen. But it felt like watching the pieces come 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.160 into place. I was like, Okay, this is how this goes. 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.680 And so I I guess I from from where I sit, 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:10.400 I don't have an amazing objective basis for evaluating how 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:10.920 it all went. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.640 But to my eyes, it seemed like it went well. 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:16.960 But I mean that's kind of the thing about something 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.640 like mutual aid. It's like not to say it always 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.360 goes well, but on some level it always goes well. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:26.039 It always does. Whatever we can do is a positive thing. 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.200 Yeah, it's something that wasn't being done. 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.120 Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.640 Yeah, I think there there's an element of sort of 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.240 like I guess it is, you know, in the business 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.159 type world of managing expectations and. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.599 Like, yeah, but it is. It is true. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.880 It is like like pushing a boulder or any any 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:46.760 amount you push the boulder is a place where it 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.560 wasn't before. Yeah, you know, is it better than if 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.560 we had a functional government that it took our took 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.200 our tax dollars and appropriately them. 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.960 Yeah I'm not sure. Yeah. Is it the most efficient? 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.080 I mean, you know it because of the. 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:09.600 Decentralized nature I it was obviously not the most directly 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:14.200 efficient way to do everything. Yeah, but things absolutely did 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.919 get done. I will say, during during sort of the 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.039 absolute thick of it, I was like, man, when when 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.360 the Mega people really got their heads up about Antifa 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.760 super soldiers. I think the biggest, the biggest problem with 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:29.760 you know, us as a fighting group is going to 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:31.640 be just making sure everyone shows up to the war 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.200 in time, which is gonna be a real fucking problem 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:36.479 when push comes a shop. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:43.240 Yeah, I agree, And I mean it's funny because I 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.560 was late to this recording, but usually I try very 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:48.159 hard to put the punk in punctual. 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.200 I was just like, damn, there's a lot of a 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.360 lot of sitting around in parking lots for me this week. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.440 Yeah, everyone's everyone's about fifteen minutes late. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:04.400 That's okay, Well that is actually oddly a good hm. 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:06.039 I'll just tell you what this episode is about. But 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:07.839 before I tell you what this episode is about, first, 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:09.760 I want to say we do have a producer, she's 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:11.839 not on the call right now. It is Sophie Lickterman. 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.279 We also have an audio engineer named Rory, and everyone 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:16.239 has to say hi to Rory. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.720 Hi, Rory Hi, Rory. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.640 And our theme music was written for us by unwoman. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.800 And I was pondering this week. I was like, well, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.560 what mutual aid story am I going to do? Because 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.000 I have Andrew as my guest nice and a friend 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.799 of mine brought up this story. It is a story 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.279 about mutual aid during just about as dark of a 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.240 time as you can imagine, the brightest lights in the 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.640 darkest darkes. It's my favorite kind of story. Yeah, this 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.280 is a story about all the people who stepped up 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.840 to care for people dying of AIDS in the nineteen eighties. 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:52.800 In particular, it's about the unbelievable number of lesbians who 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.360 came in to care for their queer brethren who were 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.279 abandoned by their families and society and the government and 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:04.120 the medical institutions. So this is my lesbians did amazing 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.520 shit during the AIDS crisis. Episode. I don't know if 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:08.200 it's gonna be called that. I probably can't cuss on 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:09.000 the title. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:11.240 Amazing stuff. 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.320 Yeah, have you have you heard about this at all? 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:15.120 This this thing? 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:21.200 I feel like yes, but I mean not anything specific, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.280 just that like sort of like the in you know, 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.880 mentioning unsung heroes type situations. 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.400 I think totally just swhear it would have come up. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.200 Yeah, I think there's literally I didn't end up watching this. 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:34.560 I don't watch a lot of documentaries when I'm doing 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:36.600 my research, to try to stick to written sources overall, 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.360 but there's like different documentaries about many of these different groups. 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.400 I think one of them is literally called Unsung Heroes. 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.520 I think that's the name of Well, we'll talk about 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.840 that one later. Sure, we've talked a bit about the 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.120 history of queer rights and queer people on this show. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.280 I think this is an understatement. If you want the 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.200 best rundown of how social movements look before Stonewall Riots 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.280 of nineteen sixty nine, or the best rundown that I 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.600 have done, check out our episode on the Stonewall Riots 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.800 of nineteen sixty nine. But in general, I would say 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.480 that lesbian and gay activism started off as a bit 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.280 separate from each other, but they would often intersect. Maybe 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:15.720 the best way I can think to put it is 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.160 that as cultural spaces, the two would stay fairly distinct 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.560 lesbian and gay, but in terms of activism and advocacy, 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.400 queer folks of all types found common cause with each 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.600 other often enough, and that was kind of where I 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.040 was coming at from it, But then I was also 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.800 reading more and more about like even in terms of 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.000 cultural spaces, there was a lot of overlap too. I 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.440 have read plenty of examples of stories about lesbian's bartending 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.240 at gay mail bars, for example, or queer discothechs for 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.520 all comers. You know. So the best way I say 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.680 this is really messy the interaction between gay and lesbian 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:54.360 activism and culture. While researching this episode, I ran across 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.880 a lot of people, especially people who weren't there, including me. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:08:59.760 I wasn't there. I mean, I was technically alive during 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.000 that but I was not particularly active as a four 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.280 year old, and I ran across a lot of people 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.440 who weren't there talking about how incredibly divided gay and 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.760 lesbian scenes and people were from one another. But the 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.240 more I did the research, the more I found this 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.800 wasn't the case. There is a pattern that I've seen 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.640 a lot on the show, and I'm curious your opinion 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.760 about this pattern. But it seems like we have this 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.960 habit of looking back at history and emphasizing all the 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:33.360 divisions between various marginalized people instead of all the places 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.000 where we've worked in solidarity with each other and like 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.280 both things are true. Right. For example, I have read 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.120 so many things before I especially before I started doing 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.040 the show. I would read all the time about how 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.640 the early feminist movement was like wildly racist in the 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.400 United States. So those all white feminists who were just 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:53.360 pieces of shit in terms of race. Sure, and I 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.880 internalized that and I believed it, and absolutely there were 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:00.400 huge numbers of actively racist white feminists, especially in the 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:04.160 voting rights era of the early twentieth century. But then 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.040 as I would read nineteenth century history about the United 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.840 States and the abolitionist movements, a fock ton of the 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.960 early white abolitionists were women who were quite actively also 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.640 fighting for the rights of women, and they're like the 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.040 same social circle more or less. 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:25.719 Yeah, I wonder, I mean, obviously, I think it's the 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.720 headline is more surprising. The divisions are emphasized just because 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.680 you know, in a vacuum without any external information, I 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.320 guess I would just, you know, war one would just 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.920 assume that like all queer people stick together and then 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:47.559 so so it's like more notable the whatever divisions are there. 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.000 It would be my only guess, like. 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:51.920 That's so fair. 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.520 That makes sense I like I'm so cynical that I'm 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.840 like uncynical again where I'm like it helps the powers 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:03.600 that be to focus on our divisions, you know, yes, 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.280 but it also like like we shouldn't erase our differences. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:11.920 We shouldn't pretend like yeah, fucking white feminists haven't been 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.760 really shitty or like that, like gay men can't be 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.160 misogynists or like, you know, yeah, but I. 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.040 Think it you're you're absolutely right, though I do think 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:24.240 it goes sort of both ways in that like whatever 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.000 interest is like peaked by the divisions absolutely also like 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.120 serves the setus quo. So like there's no like nothing 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.200 to like hit the brakes on that or tap the 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:39.400 brakes on on that, like instinct, like whether it's like 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.600 writerly or like from the publishing perspective, like they just 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.160 want to put that out there and it helps, you know, 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.040 the people in power for it to be put out 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:48.600 there as well. 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.800 Totally like kind of like how like Twitter is a 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:57.640 nightmareland that creates divisions between people because likes and reacts 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.600 and blah blah blah are like more useful to the 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.559 algorith them and so therefore people who are angry are 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.040 more likely to comment than people who are like oh yeah, no, 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:06.640 totally yeah, yeah, you know. 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.400 I mean it's the same way that like, like you know, 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.880 just on any the internet is clearly but like even 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.760 before the Internet, like one complaint, you get one complaint, 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.840 but you won't get you know, a hundred satisfied customers 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:21.319 that are like. 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:26.719 Yeah, that's that's it. And then also even like I 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:28.960 would never read the reviews of my own work, I 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.680 actually specifically try not to read the reviews of my 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.680 own work because I am very aware that I will 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.920 read ten reviews that will be like Margaret Kiljoy saved 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.920 my children from a burning building or whatever, I don't know, 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.640 and then I'll read like one that was like Margaret's 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:48.040 voice is bad or you know, I don't know, right. 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.520 And then I'm like it's like devastating. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:54.000 Yeah, and so maybe that's it. Maybe we like we 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.319 hear about we hear about the racist and we're like, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:58.280 well fuck this whole thing. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.800 You know, it becomes extra silient. Yeah, I will say 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.240 as far as like Twitter goes. On the first big 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.199 show I worked on, it was a show called Mixed Dish, 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.600 and when it came out, I created not a Twitter bot, 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.360 but if I was better at coding, it would have 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.600 been a bot that was called not with the word 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.400 not crossed out the Mixtish writer's room, and every time 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.120 there was a negative comment, I would just write via 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.600 the bot or not the not bot, but by the account. Okay, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:31.520 but we worked really hard on this one. Under every 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:32.959 negative comment on Twitter. 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.760 That is so relatable when people come like because people 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:39.720 have like things that they could be critical about about 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:41.960 the things I do. But sometimes on some level, I 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.280 just always want to be like, do you know I 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.240 didn't sleep for like a week because I was trying 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.880 to get this right. And I know that I didn't 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.680 get it totally right, but like I have to put 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:56.160 out roughly two hours of history content every week, I 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.120 just don't sleep. Yeah. 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:04.199 Yeah, I think we're past the part of the Internet 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:05.559 where that could even work. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.800 But it was very fun to me in the moment. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.120 No, totally. Yeah, Okay. So gay rights in America before 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:16.360 the Stone, before Stonewall, most visible groups were very assimilationists 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.400 and pushing very hard for mainstream acceptance by like not 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.320 rocking the boat. But all along there were all these 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.600 kind of like unruly queers being unruly Stonewall was not 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.200 the first and not the last major riot by queers 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.680 who are sick of being mistreated by society. But after 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.120 some cops raided the Stonewall in in New York in 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.360 nineteen sixty nine, the gay liberation movement exploded onto the scene. 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.120 People were tired of asking nicely, and once people got 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.480 tired of asking nicely, shit started getting done. That's a 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.720 pattern you can see over and over again. As Frederick 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.520 Douglas the Black Abolitionists put it, power concedes nothing without 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.120 a demand. The seventies were a vital time in gay history, 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.960 as people started really coming out on moss and said 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.240 up all kinds of infrastructure that we rely upon today. 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:05.600 I remember I was talking to one of my friends 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.160 about this beforehand. I have relied on the infrastructure set 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.720 up by like gays fifty years ago, for like my 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.880 basic health care, completely unrelated to sexuality, just because I 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.760 was like broken, lived out of a backpack, you know, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.720 and like I remember, I injured myself at one point 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.160 by having too heavy of a backpack I was living 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:26.800 out of and not being in my twenties anymore, It 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.400 turns out that you can carry a certain sized backpack 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.920 in your twenties that you can't carry onward, and I 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:33.680 like injured myself and so the only place that I 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.400 could go was this gay clinic and it was nice. 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:39.960 But then it's just like bonus points because they respect 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.120 my pronouns and it's nice and people are nice to you. 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.120 You know. I love gay infrastructure is the point, and 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.000 I think that gay infrastructure is one of the most 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.760 beautiful prefigurations of the world. I want everyone to get 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.280 to live in. A lot of that started getting set 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.720 up in the seventies. Unfortunately, a lot of it was 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.880 set up in the eighties because the eighties, yeah, were 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.480 the spoiler alert for history. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:09.080 Real bad yeah, yeah, and bad at the time. But 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.480 also all the all the shit that's happening now got 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.240 started then or not, I got started before, but like 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.640 some of the major stuff really got rolling then, and 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.760 we're just kind of living with the results of how 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.000 how those people did the shit in the eighties. 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.480 I know, it's like we're listen, we're in like hyper 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.880 Reagan times. Like Reagan was like yeah you at the time, 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:31.840 I think people are like, I can't imagine something worse 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.960 than this, and you're like, then, fucking yeah. Pull my beer. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:35.920 Trump comes in. 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:41.400 I know, I mean, we'll see, hopefully at the very minimum, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.880 like Trump isn't sort of lionized in history. The way 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.160 that that is sort of the most infuriating thing is, Yeah, 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.920 people's at least at least in the nineties and two thousands. 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.960 I think people are coming around a little bit now. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.600 But like their description of Ronald Reagan's like the fuck 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.880 out of here? The fuck are you talking about? 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.480 I was talking with one of my friends who works 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.400 in the piercing industry, and they were wearing, I can't 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.719 remember exactly, they were wearing a shirt that was like 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:12.600 Ronald Reagan's grave is a gender neutral bathroom. Yeah, And 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.760 someone that they work with was a piercer, a gay 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.199 man who survived the eighties in San Francisco, which is 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.080 a hard thing to have done. And was just like, 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.320 I'm so glad that people today still understand that Ronald 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:26.440 Reagan is a terrible person. 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:31.400 Yeah, I mean, well and sort of even. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.320 As he got like you know, no longer really there 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:36.600 and while he was still president. 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:37.720 That's the thing. 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:42.199 It's like, like, yeah, the Republican and right wing in 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.600 general like apparatus is this like he is a terrible person, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:51.320 but it sort of doesn't matter, no, totally, like specifically him, Yeah, 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.000 like is this is what those folks want and we 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.600 are living with the consequences of not yeah, fucking taking 0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:58.920 them seriously honestly. 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.680 Yeah, and then obviously like some people did, some people tried, 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.520 and just like not enough, but like yes, yes, yes, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.960 and so in the eighties it was the dying time. 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.879 Gay men started showing up in hospitals as early as 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.720 about nineteen eighty one, well exactly nineteen eighty one, with 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.359 all kinds of rare cancers and diagnoses with what we 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.520 now understand as AIDS. Acquired immuno deficiency syndrome is caused 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.359 by an underlying virus HIV human immuno deficiency virus. They 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.040 didn't know that yet. The actual causes and means of 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.240 transmission were going to be a hot topic for years. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.200 At first, doctors looked at what was happening and called 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:46.639 it GRID gay related immune deficiency. This crisis was completely 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.120 and shamefully ignored by the government. It was like till 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.600 nineteen eighty seven before Reagan i think, said the word 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:57.000 AIDS right. The treatment that people were receiving was shameful too. 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:03.040 When patients first started showing up destroyed immune systems. At first, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.080 this makes some sense, doctors were rightfully afraid of getting 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.800 their patients any sicker, and so they wore head to 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:13.480 toe ppe in what was called colloquial as spacesuits. But 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.720 soon enough all kinds of healthcare professionals started wearing them 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.440 around AIDS patients out of fear for themselves instead of 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.320 the other way around. And the thing is, I've read 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.240 a couple of people like talking about, like how reasonable 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.119 was it of people to be afraid of AIDS patients 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.760 and stuff, And on some level, right, like, people didn't 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.680 know what this disease was. They didn't know how it spread, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.520 and they knew that it had all one hundred percent 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.639 death rate, which is a really high death rate. You know, 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.240 it's about as high as it can get. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:47.080 But pretty early on, well, no one was quite sure 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:51.240 how the disease was spread. Doctors and epidemiologists were pretty 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:53.560 certain that it was not airborne and that it wasn't 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.120 spread by casual contact, just based on looking at the 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.080 I can't believe I wrote a script where I have 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.240 to say epidemiology a lot, but just based on the 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.520 like the spread of the disease, right. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:07.480 Yeah, I mean it was. 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.520 It's a little bit in retrospect some of the COVID 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.879 stuff too, where it was likely, especially like the wiping 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.399 down your groceries business, and it's like, okay, but if 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.840 it was transmitted like that, we'd all, like, you know, 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.679 the city of Wuhan would have been completely obliterated. Like 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.639 it just doesn't work like that. Yeah, but totally, I 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:33.000 will say, you know, obviously have a sense of where 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:34.400 this is going, and you know. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.760 I sort of understand the doctor's perspective, but yeah. 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.560 No, totally, Like at the very beginning, you're like, whoa, 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.200 I don't know what that is, and I don't want 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.320 to then spread it to everyone, and like, you know, 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.960 there's a there's a certain sense. But yeah, that was 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.960 only for a brief moment. The medical establishment knew better 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.919 really soon. They knew pretty much right away that it 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.399 wasn't casual contact or airborne, and then by nineteen eighty 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.480 three they realized it was blood born because of the 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.000 number of blood transfusion patients who were getting sick. And 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.480 this is the same year that researchers in France discovered 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:16.120 the virus underlying the disease HIV, but homophobia and fear 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:21.880 of disease worked really tightly together. Healthcare professionals were terrified 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:25.280 of catching gay cancer. No one would touch or breed 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:30.040 the same air as AIDS patients, so patients were completely isolated. 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.800 One aid's nurse, a guy named Guy Vanderberg, who is 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:37.720 himself hospitalized for a while, told ABC the food tray 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.320 was shoved into the room and everything was covered in plastic, 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.399 then everything was put into biohazard bags when it was 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.160 taken out. People were fully gowned when they came in, 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.560 even just to talk with me, And like, even if 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.639 this was reasonable, and there's very brief window where it was, 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:56.480 it's also just incredibly alienated and hard. 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:56.800 Yeah. 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:01.800 Yeah, I mean it's like, solitary confinement is torture, literal torture. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:02.760 Yeah, totally. 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:04.480 That's even when you're not sick. 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:09.359 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. My personal anecdote around this is that 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.359 a close family friend of my family's has HIV and 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:15.560 he was diagnosed I think in the eighties, maybe the 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.200 early nineties, and he's this conservative man who goes to 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.719 a conservative church, and so when he went and told 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.600 the congregation that, you know, he had HIV. Everyone in 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:28.400 the congregation lined up to shake his hand like without gloves. 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:32.919 And this was like a huge fucking deal, you know, right, 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:37.560 because everyone consciously knew it was safe, but people were 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:39.919 still being real fucking shitty about it. 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:40.240 Yeah. 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:46.480 Yeah, Fortunately, queer people themselves, gay people and lesbians are 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:51.280 as I understand it overrepresented in the medical profession, much 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:55.080 like you might think that ads are overrepresented in this podcast, 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:59.400 But I would argue that they are that they are. Yeah, 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:01.000 that's what I would are you too, But if you 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.080 get cooler zone media, then you don't have to listen 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.159 to them. You can only listen to my ad transitions instead. 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:18.400 But here's the ads, and we're back. The lesbian community 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:22.800 rallied really hard, and they rode to Gondor's aid when 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:25.119 the beacons were lit. They did not ask where was 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:29.240 Gondor when the westfold fell? I have to somehow put 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.840 in a Lord of the room's reference in every episode. Yeah, no, 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:36.320 it's just it's important. And one gay man it's actually okay. 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.119 The comparisons are going to get really strong though, right 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.080 because there's well okay, yeah, one gay man in San 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.280 Francisco spoke anonymously to the I news and said, quote, 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:47.520 suddenly the hospitals were full of lesbians who were volunteering, 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.520 volunteering to go into those rooms and help my friends 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:53.960 who were dying. I remember being so moved by them 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:57.440 because gay men hadn't been too kind to lesbians. We'd 0:23:57.480 --> 0:23:59.560 call them fish and make fun of the butcher dikes 0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:02.080 in the bar, and yet there they were. 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.280 Yeah, I mean that is a you know, that that 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.879 is sort of like the differences and similarities that we 0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.240 were talking about earlier right there, which is like there's 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.720 a difference between like poking fun at someone and like 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:15.119 a community. 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.840 Is dying totally totally. Yeah, like, yeah, we're going to 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:21.119 make fun of oh you got bad haircut. I'm going 0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:23.359 to make fun of you until someone else messes with you. 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:24.520 Then it's a war, you know. 0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:26.280 Yeah, yeah, you know. 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:32.840 And without also like two needlessly tapping the present, we're 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.080 about to also enter into a time when the establishment 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:41.560 medical advice is about to be factually incorrect. Yeah, not 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:44.080 that it always hasn't been, sort of, but even more so, 0:24:45.480 --> 0:24:47.119 I don't know, this is sort of an open question 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:51.480 to me, but it's like, whenever the next terrible thing 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:55.399 that is a probably virus hits, like probably, yeah, we 0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:59.440 won't be able to necessarily, I mean, we probably pretty 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.760 actively won't be able to trust our CDC or NIH. 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:06.960 And again, with grains of salt, we never probably should 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:11.480 have wholly trusted them. However, they've mostly been correct, you know. 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:16.840 So whether it's you know, getting your measles vaccine or 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:21.120 you know, not trying to use nutrition to fight cancer 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:23.920 and mental mental health issues. 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:26.040 I don't know. 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:28.439 I don't know if there's like an EU like health 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:32.280 authority to follow or Chinese health authority to follow, but 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:34.280 don't follow the like. 0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:36.680 And don't follow the American one, and don't let. 0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:40.200 Their policies dictate your behavior, because we are going to 0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:42.480 have to do stuff like this which is maybe not 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:49.040 technically advised or allowed by the establishment, but it is 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.280 the right thing to do, and you know, within reason. 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:54.280 I guess who knows what the next actual thing will be. 0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:57.239 But just because they say you're safe doesn't mean you are. 0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:59.439 Just because they say you're in peril doesn't mean you are. 0:25:59.600 --> 0:25:59.840 I know. 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:01.399 And it's like hard because it's like, well, this is 0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:03.560 going to make it even harder to get people to trust, like, 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.240 you know, I'm clearly not like a big like the 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:09.879 state is a really good way of forming society, person, 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:15.200 but yeah, institutions that get together to solve things, Yeah, 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:18.199 I absolutely believe in and many of those are governmental 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:19.200 and yeah. 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:22.360 Well it's like the difference between like the broadly speaking, 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:27.680 the state, but also like the state is unfortunately the 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:29.480 best way to do some of these. 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:32.120 Things, Like yeah, definitely that we have available to us. Yeah. 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:35.000 Yeah, so yeah, it would be nice if it worked. 0:26:35.359 --> 0:26:37.680 Yeah. Yeah, it's like they're getting rid of all that part. 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.040 They're like, it's like, stop making the state look good, 0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:43.800 you weird right wing libertarians. Yeah, like you're gutting all 0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:45.720 the good parts of the state and you're keeping the 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:47.720 fucking cops in the military. 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:49.719 Yeah all right. 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:54.520 Well, so lesbians step up in so many ways during 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:57.440 this that it's overwhelming and I won't get into all 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:01.760 of it, but we'll start with blood, because starting in 0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:04.600 nineteen eighty three, men who have sex with men were 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:07.320 banned from donating blood in order to stop transmission through 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:12.080 blood transfusions. There's there's some logic here, right, HIV tests 0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:16.480 weren't available yet, but this ban went on way too long. 0:27:16.880 --> 0:27:19.080 Do you want to guess what year men who had 0:27:19.119 --> 0:27:22.560 sex with men were able to donate blood again without 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:24.640 discrimination in the United States. 0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:30.600 I only know this because I was asked in my 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:36.399 adulthood so deep into the twenty to two thousand somethings, 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:38.160 Is that right. 0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:43.199 Two years ago? Twenty twenty three? Okay, yeah, yeah, no, 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:46.639 that's actually a good point. Yeah, all of us have gone. Yeah. 0:27:47.040 --> 0:27:51.159 In twenty twenty fucking three, they finally changed the rules. 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:53.879 In twenty twenty, men who have sex with men were 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:55.600 allowed to donate blood if they hadn't had sex in 0:27:55.640 --> 0:27:59.840 the last three months. Nowadays, the rule is anyone regardless 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:02.000 of extra gender, can donate blood, so long as they 0:28:02.000 --> 0:28:04.520 haven't had anal sex with a new partner or slept 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:07.439 with multiple new partners in the past three months, and 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:11.840 that I'm not an expert here. That sounds reasonable. Yeah, 0:28:12.040 --> 0:28:14.600 make it across the board and not about sexuality. That 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:15.840 seems good. I don't know. 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:19.399 Yeah. But also it feels like we could also just 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:22.280 screen for I. 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:24.879 Mean, if you're just worried about HIV, it's like, just 0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:26.520 check if there's HIV there. 0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:28.600 I think, but I could be wrong. I think it's 0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:31.119 because there's a roughly a three month period for the 0:28:31.160 --> 0:28:32.600 efficacy of the testing. 0:28:32.640 --> 0:28:34.160 Oh sure, sure, okay. 0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:36.480 But I don't know how it relates to like bottled 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:37.440 blood or whatever. 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:37.720 It is. 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:42.000 Sure, but in nineteen eighty three men were suddenly told 0:28:42.040 --> 0:28:45.800 that they couldn't donate blood. But AIDS patients need a 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:49.640 lot of blood transfusions, especially back then, so their own 0:28:49.680 --> 0:28:54.200 immediate community couldn't support them. Fortunately, LGBT is a thing 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:56.800 for a reason. All of us letters are in it together. 0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:00.280 The l stepped up the most famous group is probably 0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:03.600 the most famous because branding is so important to being 0:29:03.640 --> 0:29:05.760 remembered in history, is what I'm learning on this show too. 0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:11.480 They were called the blood Sisters. Yeah, like you don't 0:29:11.480 --> 0:29:12.600 forget the blood sisters. 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:17.760 Oh man, And just speaking of this is it's just 0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:20.760 nice to get a Warhammer forty K reference in there. 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:23.240 Oh are there blood sisters and Warmmer? I'm a D 0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:24.080 and D girl. 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:25.880 I don't think. I think so. 0:29:26.600 --> 0:29:28.680 Hell yeah, it might be a Sisters of Blood or 0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:31.320 something like that, just the bloody angels anyway. 0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:35.200 Hell yeah, So the Warhammer forty K girls stepped. 0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:37.400 To the fuck uh. 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:41.280 The Women's caucus of the San Diego Democratic Club set 0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:43.800 up a deal with a private blood bank to allow 0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:47.560 donors to designate the recipients, so basically people could go 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:50.520 in and say, this is blood for people with HIV 0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:54.320 and AIDS. Then they called for a blood drive on 0:29:54.440 --> 0:29:57.920 July sixteenth, nineteen eighty three, and called on all the 0:29:57.960 --> 0:30:01.520 lesbians in San Diego, being that like fifty people would come, 0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:04.800 but the very first blood drive, two hundred people came 0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:10.320 with a line around the block. Peggy Heathers, a blood sister, said, quote, 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.320 women came out of the woodwork, women that didn't want 0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:16.680 to have anything to do with men, even gay men. 0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:21.880 And I fucking love that. Even the hardcore lesbian separatists 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:24.080 were like, look, I don't want to live with men, 0:30:24.400 --> 0:30:26.160 I don't want to date men. I don't want to 0:30:26.280 --> 0:30:29.360 organize with men. I'm not going to see them fucking 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:31.800 die abandoned because of their sexuality. 0:30:32.600 --> 0:30:35.400 Yeah, like, well, I mean it also is just sort 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:39.360 of like the right triangulation. It's like, listen, even if 0:30:39.400 --> 0:30:42.480 I don't want anything to do with men, the worst 0:30:42.520 --> 0:30:45.160 men are the ones that are perpetrating this upon gay men. 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:50.120 Like totally, totally, there's still the real enemy. 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:53.120 Let's not let's not and never be confused about who 0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:54.200 the real enemy. 0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:57.239 Is yeah, totally, and I just like, I love that. 0:30:57.280 --> 0:30:59.000 I love that they were like, yeah, like you know, 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.680 you're still as being separatists and we're still coming to 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:05.800 help you. The Blood Sisters continued for years. I have 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:07.840 read that they continued before this is my favorite part 0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.960 about multiple sources, and I've read that they continue for 0:31:11.000 --> 0:31:13.520 four years. I've read that they continued until nineteen ninety six. 0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:17.920 Either way they stayed, I'm guessing that they stayed particularly 0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:20.360 active until the very first treatments of the late eighties 0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:24.240 kicked in, and then active to some degree for a 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.800 decade after that until about nineteen ninety six. Is when 0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:29.320 you get the well I keep saying about in nineteen 0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:32.840 ninety six, you get the sort of cocktail three drug 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:37.480 regimen that started dramatically improving peoples odds, you know. 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:39.520 And the other side of it is like whether they 0:31:39.560 --> 0:31:43.440 were like continuing as a Blood Sister's like you know, 0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:46.640 under the Blood Sister's banner. There is the thing, you know, 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:50.640 sort of mirroring my story, which is like once you 0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:54.960 get started, you do more like totally and I do 0:31:55.080 --> 0:31:58.360 think like a you know, the tiny silver lining for 0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:02.880 these crises is it does get regular people or maybe 0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:05.160 even slightly apathetic people and to like be like, Okay, 0:32:05.160 --> 0:32:08.640 I gotta do fucking something then like something that gets 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.720 you know something else. No, yeah, enough of the time 0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:14.520 that you know, things become real. 0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:16.360 No, that's a good point. Yeah, you just got to 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:19.200 like get people into the inertia of trying to help. 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:20.800 Mm hmm. Yeah. 0:32:20.840 --> 0:32:22.880 And I don't know if the blood Sisters were the 0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:24.760 first or if they were the one that gets written 0:32:24.800 --> 0:32:27.000 about the most because they have a sick name. The 0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:32.160 idea spread. Lesbians ran blood drives in at least San Francisco, Denver, Boston, 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:36.200 Los Angeles, Baltimore, Memphis, and DC. I suspect it's more 0:32:36.240 --> 0:32:38.880 than that, because I've read about lesbian support and a 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:42.400 bunch of other cities beyond that. The San Francisco blood 0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:45.000 drive was led by the National Organization of Women, and 0:32:45.000 --> 0:32:47.880 they would put up flyers that say, our boys need 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:52.560 our blood fucking good. 0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:57.480 And it's also like, because I do think just to 0:32:57.520 --> 0:33:00.760 like reach kind of the normal people, you do got 0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:03.680 to do essentially war propaganda for stuff like this. 0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:06.280 Yeah, totally. And also, I mean this whole thing we're 0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:07.760 gonna talk about a little later, This whole thing is 0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:12.000 strangely like war, you know. Yeah, well yeah, and queer 0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.400 newspapers continued to say basically like, hey, lesbians, please donate 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:17.960 blood or to quote the newspaper coming out, which I 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:21.080 believe is San Francisco paper, they should do it, to 0:33:21.280 --> 0:33:24.320 quote stand by our brothers and fighting the AIDS epidemic. 0:33:24.760 --> 0:33:25.560 Yeah. 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:27.560 An author named Jennifer Wilde, who was writing for the 0:33:27.640 --> 0:33:32.120 queer Irish magazine GCN, put it like this, the drives 0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:35.000 also gave more than just blood. They were also away 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:37.920 for the men suffering to know that they were loved 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.480 and part of a supportive community that will always do 0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:42.520 what must be done to overcome adversity. 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:44.200 Yeah. 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:48.640 It's the kind of thing where like real almost cheesy 0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:51.920 like phrasing, it's just appropriate. You're like, yeah, no, that's 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:54.800 what happened. They absolutely We were like, you're part of 0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:57.440 a supportive community. We don't want you to die alone. 0:33:57.720 --> 0:33:59.040 Like yeah. 0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:02.160 Well, and also it is like like this is such 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:06.640 a wonderful example of like laws and power are just 0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:10.680 people doing shit to other people. And like as bad 0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:14.040 as the stuff gets and as has been, like you know, 0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:17.239 when gay men weren't allowed to donate blood, really what 0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:20.640 this means is they just they need blood, like blood 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:26.239 is needed, and if we can get blood in this 0:34:26.320 --> 0:34:29.560 instance to people, then it sort of is a counteraction 0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:33.640 to the bigotry and the fucking hate that is out there. 0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:36.160 Like you can just reverse it, yeah, or you can 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:37.400 try or you do something. 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:43.759 Yeah, but you know what, we can't reverse the continued 0:34:44.200 --> 0:34:49.879 march of all of the brilliant products and services who 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:50.759 I love. 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.080 We can try. Are you going to listen to the 0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:55.239 ad first to figure out how? 0:34:55.600 --> 0:35:00.680 Yeah? No, your enemy listen to these ads. Actually some 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:02.319 of them are probably for good things. That's the hard 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:04.120 part is that sometimes we get ads for nice things, 0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:07.399 like other podcasts. I like podcasts. I don't mind learning 0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:08.800 about podcasts through podcasts. 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:12.360 That seems fine, yes, yes, but that does start to 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:14.080 feel like a Ponzi scheme a little bit. 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:15.040 That's true. 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:19.080 Podcast advertising on other podcasts feels like hold on, well 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:19.440 right now. 0:35:19.440 --> 0:35:21.120 And then people are like, how come all your guests 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:24.200 are podcasters? And I'm like, I see your point, But 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:26.840 all my guests are podcasters because they know how to podcast, 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:29.480 because it's actually a trained skill that takes effort and 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:32.160 also takes equipment, and not all of our guests are 0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:35.640 podcasters anyway, but all of our guests listen to ads. 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:37.640 Actually that's not true. We don't listen them while we're recording, 0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:39.800 but here they are, you can listen to them. Let's go. 0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:47.799 And we're back. 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:52.960 So lesbian stepped up to donate blood, and lesbian doctors 0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.600 and nurses stepped up to directly care for AIDS patients. 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:59.200 But it went even deeper than that. In nineteen eighty one, 0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:02.560 a game and named Howie Dare He was a fourth 0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:05.759 grade teacher with a master's degree in counseling, and a 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:09.960 lesbian therapist named Candy Markham started a gay counseling center 0:36:09.960 --> 0:36:12.960 in Dallas after seeing clinics in New York and Houston 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:16.040 that were counseling centers for gay folks. This is before 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:19.319 it was going to be an HIV thing. Everyone needs 0:36:19.360 --> 0:36:21.920 counseling and therapy sometimes, right, But if you're part of 0:36:21.920 --> 0:36:25.000 a criminalized community, that puts extra stress on your life, 0:36:25.800 --> 0:36:28.800 and most therapists that were available weren't exactly queer competent, 0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:32.920 let alone queer friendly. So they start up this hotline. 0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:36.200 They opened up the Oaklawn Counseling Center in the gahborhood 0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:38.600 and then they went around to bars and wherever people 0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:41.759 hung out to tell people about it. Then the two 0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:44.440 of them went to a gay mental health conference in Houston, 0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:47.239 because hell yeah, queer infrastructure. There was a gay mental 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:50.359 health conference in Houston in nineteen eighty one, and they 0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:52.960 learned about this shitty new thing called Grid that was 0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:57.040 killing gay men and trans women on the coasts. So 0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:59.319 they decided to turn one of their phone lines into 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:03.560 a GRID hotline. Even before Grid hit the city. Candy 0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:06.799 was like, we don't know anything about this disease yet. 0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:11.040 I'm paraphrasing her, but how he said, and I quote, yes, 0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:14.440 I know, but we will and we need to be prepared. 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:19.440 So I really like this man because he is a handsome, prepper, 0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:22.879 leather daddy school teacher with a master's degree and like 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:24.600 was a mental health king. 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:27.360 He's fucking cool, amazing. 0:37:27.880 --> 0:37:29.479 Yeah, you can read all kinds of like I didn't 0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:31.960 put all of it in here, but like he wrote 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:35.759 a lot. Well, I'll get to it, okay. Within a 0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:40.080 few months, AIDS came to Dallas. And the thing is 0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:42.440 is that AIDS untreated kills more or less everyone who 0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:46.760 gets it, and there were no treatments for years. I 0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:49.279 don't know if I've read anything quite so much like 0:37:49.440 --> 0:37:53.200 war as the AIDS crisis. Every account I've read about 0:37:53.200 --> 0:37:55.800 this time in any city or town talks about people 0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:58.719 going to multiple funerals a week, and that the gay 0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:03.440 accepting churches were running two to three services a day. Actually, 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.479 the specific I think it was called the MCC the church, 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:10.320 the Queer accepting church in Dallas at this time lost 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:15.840 i think a third of its own clergy days. The 0:38:15.880 --> 0:38:18.759 hotline that they had set up, this grid hotline was 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:22.240 staffed at first mostly by gay men. The quote worried 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:24.640 well because it's like if you're a gay man and 0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:27.760 this time you're either sick or you're the worried well right, 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:29.600 because you're like, well, I don't know what it's going 0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:29.920 to be me. 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:31.440 Yeah. 0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:33.960 Anytime anyone got sick, they were like, oh fuck, Like 0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:37.000 I got a cold, I might be dead now, you know, right. 0:38:37.920 --> 0:38:40.320 The community centered around this health clinic set up a 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.400 buddy system where sick men would be placed with healthy 0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:46.000 folks who could care for them. They had more than 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:48.920 one hundred registered buddies. These were sort of in addition 0:38:49.040 --> 0:38:51.640 to if you have like a full time caretaker, like 0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:53.200 if you live with your partner, or you live with 0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:56.160 your parents, or someone else's like caretaking for you. You 0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:58.279 also have a buddy system on top of that to 0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:02.960 help relieve that careme taking right, and this model of 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:07.359 direct care and mutual laid spread to other cities. They 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:10.480 also set up an adult day care center so that 0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:12.759 people with AIDS could come and be taken care of 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:15.360 in the center during the day so that their caretakers 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:19.920 could catch a break. All the while how He is 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:24.600 running all this shit alongside Candy. He's also teaching math 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:29.400 to incarcerated people at the county jail. In addition to 0:39:29.440 --> 0:39:32.000 be like he's like a college teacher, a fourth grade teacher, 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:40.280 institutionalized people teacher, and a bartender and running a counseling service. 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:43.720 He fucking burned the candle of both ends. 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:48.560 Jesus, that's so exhausting. But I know good. I know. 0:39:50.320 --> 0:39:53.080 In nineteen eighty five, when how He was thirty seven 0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:57.000 years old, he was diagnosed with HIV. It was his 0:39:57.000 --> 0:40:01.080 friend and co worker, Candy, the other therapist who was 0:40:01.120 --> 0:40:03.640 his buddy in the buddy system, who was assigned to him. 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:06.879 His mom was a nurse and took care of him too, 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:10.359 and He died in nineteen eighty six at thirty eight 0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:14.279 years old, with his mother by his bedside, as were 0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:17.440 his wishes. His ashes were spread and his mother's rose garden. 0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:22.440 And I was like, as I was writing this, I 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:23.560 was like, I don't know, I'm gonna be able to 0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:30.279 read this without crying. Like Candy kept going. All of 0:40:30.280 --> 0:40:32.600 her male friends were dying, and she spent all of 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:35.400 her time doing pro bono therapy in hospitals and in 0:40:35.440 --> 0:40:38.280 home care, and then would go and speak at their funerals. 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:42.000 And this wasn't easy for her. The group that she 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:44.359 was working with would set up housing for everyone who's 0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:47.040 being kicked out by their families for being gay and sick. 0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:51.080 And she talks about how often she would have therapy 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:55.480 clients who would bring their families and the poor client 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:57.959 right who would have to come out both as gay 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:03.719 and dying in the same conversation. And Candy's job in 0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:06.360 that situation, as best as I can tell, was to 0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:08.760 try and convince the family to have a basic fucking 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:12.520 human decency right and like love and care for their child. 0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:18.560 So fucking you know, I guess like it's grim to 0:41:18.600 --> 0:41:23.200 think about that, and like grim to see like how. 0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:27.560 Little humanity some folks have. But I guess you also 0:41:27.600 --> 0:41:28.160 just never know. 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:33.359 Yeah, yeah, I like I come from a family where 0:41:33.360 --> 0:41:37.040 I like, can't imagine that having happened to me. Yeah, 0:41:37.480 --> 0:41:41.239 I can imagine family or relatives or whatever who would 0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:43.400 be like shitty to me or make fun of me, 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:46.680 or not know how to talk about it and be 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:50.960 awkward or like it's gender me and god, I'm not 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:53.160 trying to talk shit to my family. I could imagine 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:56.239 all of these things. Yeah, yeah, but the like you 0:41:56.360 --> 0:41:58.319 are not our child to get out of here, which 0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:05.319 happens still happens to so many fucking queer kids. I 0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:09.239 just like I can't. I'm like, yeah, Like it's it's 0:42:09.239 --> 0:42:12.520 like could you could you have we put the bar 0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:15.799 on the floor, like could you step over it? Hell, 0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:18.120 it might even be buried under the ground. You just 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:20.880 have to walk normal. Yeah, And instead they're like, no, 0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:22.560 I'm gonna dig up that bar and trip on it. 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:24.520 You have to dig. You have to dig to be 0:42:24.719 --> 0:42:27.200 to be that bad. But yeah, or maybe you don't 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:30.799 because it is reflexive for so many people clearly like that, 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:32.680 Like yeah. 0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:34.720 Yeah, And. 0:42:36.280 --> 0:42:39.640 Basically, as best as I can tell, what happened in 0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:41.479 the eighties is you have all of these queer health 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:45.160 services and counseling services and general infrastructure projects, right that 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:47.439 people have been building for a while or maybe built 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:50.200 specifically around AIDS, but like often have been building for 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:53.400 a long time, and then one by one all of 0:42:53.440 --> 0:42:58.239 the men in them would die, and so it would 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:00.920 be lesbians who would step up. Sometimes also straight women. 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:02.520 I'm not to to totally cut them out of this picture. 0:43:02.600 --> 0:43:04.239 Especially in San Francis, go end up reading about a 0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:05.839 bunch of straight women who also a lot, but this 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:09.239 particular episode's focused on lesbians, and so you just have 0:43:09.280 --> 0:43:11.560 this thing where like, like I've read all these people 0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:13.840 who weren't there arguing about like, oh, why did women 0:43:13.920 --> 0:43:15.799 have to do all the unpaid labor or whatever? The 0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:19.520 fuck fuck you all of that shit, but like, yeah, 0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:22.520 why couldn't the men take care of themselves because they 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:23.000 were dead? 0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:23.560 Yeah? 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.239 Yeah, Like I don't know what. 0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:26.560 To tell you. 0:43:27.600 --> 0:43:30.480 I mean, it's like, you know, of course that the 0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:33.160 grain of truth is in there, that is, that is 0:43:33.520 --> 0:43:37.080 the work that falls to women so much, but absolutely 0:43:37.440 --> 0:43:38.680 there is also an explanation. 0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:42.160 Yeah, and also like gay men are also over represented 0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:45.799 in carrying fields. Yes, yes, Like when I'm reading about 0:43:45.800 --> 0:43:48.040 a lot of the like early health clinics and stuff, 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:50.839 it's like, oh, it's gay men and lesbians who staffed them, right, 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:53.280 and then it was just lesbians left for some weird reason, 0:43:53.440 --> 0:43:56.160 you know, right. But yeah, no, totally. There is still 0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:57.719 a little bit of a like, yeah, you know, it's 0:43:57.760 --> 0:44:00.759 like carrying work et cetera as gender. But like you 0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:03.439 know what, like some work that is gendered is good 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:09.319 when people do it, like yeah, and so many nonprofit 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:12.600 leaders were dying in this period that Candy and other 0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:16.360 folks set up a six month seminar series to onboard 0:44:16.440 --> 0:44:21.960 lesbians to lead nonprofits. Right When she was interviewed later, 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:24.120 when she was asked what she would do have done 0:44:24.160 --> 0:44:28.399 differently about her life, she says, you know what comes 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:30.120 to mind is I'd make a lot more money and 0:44:30.160 --> 0:44:33.160 give it away. But you know, I worked as hard 0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:35.239 as I could. I don't think I could have done 0:44:35.280 --> 0:44:39.000 anything different. Like I said, I'm filled up from what happens. 0:44:39.440 --> 0:44:41.960 I think it is the story of my life. I'm 0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:46.680 pretty happy. Yeah, And so how do you have a 0:44:46.680 --> 0:44:50.160 good life? You fucking find a way to help and 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:53.960 then you just fucking do it. Like, She's not the 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:57.000 only person I've read this week who's talking is looking 0:44:57.040 --> 0:45:01.120 back on a life of helping people in this horrible crisis, 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:03.000 and a lot of the people I'm reading are like, yeah, 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.879 we all have PTSD now, or like, you know, it 0:45:05.960 --> 0:45:09.319 majorly impacted them, but overall, the people who survived, who 0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:12.799 were doing things are like, I'm I'm pretty proud of 0:45:12.800 --> 0:45:15.040 myself in my community, and I've lived the best life 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:16.400 I could and I'm doing okay. 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:20.560 Yeah, or look, everything comes with a cost, but you know, 0:45:20.680 --> 0:45:25.239 there's also be like, however, like PTSD you might have, 0:45:26.000 --> 0:45:28.800 I do think doing nothing would probably have made it worse, 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:31.360 totally right, And you know what, and that's not a guarantee, 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:35.560 of course, like different circumstances. But one of the bigger 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:41.000 benefits of you know, mutual aid is this is for you. 0:45:41.040 --> 0:45:45.560 Too, absolutely, like and that's literally in the name mutual aid. 0:45:45.600 --> 0:45:48.600 Yeah right, it's like, no, we're just people taking care 0:45:48.640 --> 0:45:51.160 of each other. And right now it's me taking care 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:55.160 of you, you know. And it won't necessarily be exact reciprocal, 0:45:55.320 --> 0:45:58.160 like oh well tomorrow you take care of me, yeah, 0:45:58.200 --> 0:46:00.799 but someone will take care of me, yeah, you know. 0:46:01.400 --> 0:46:04.359 Yeah, it works. It worked. If everyone didn't, it just 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:06.080 would work. Society would work. 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:08.719 I know. It's one of the most frustrated things in 0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:10.600 the world, is like, once you start seeing it happen, 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:13.080 you can unsee it, you know. 0:46:13.560 --> 0:46:14.040 Yeah. 0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:17.359 Yeah, people want to take care of each other. 0:46:18.320 --> 0:46:22.640 Yeah, well some of us don't, but that's true. Yeah, 0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:23.640 it's yeah. 0:46:23.840 --> 0:46:29.239 Yeah, well that's what we got for part one. But 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:32.120 when we come back on part two, we're going to 0:46:32.160 --> 0:46:35.000 talk about a whole bunch of other people helped, including 0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:36.560 more lesbians and some nuns. 0:46:37.480 --> 0:46:37.960 Amazing. 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:41.719 Yeah. Do you got anything you want to plug here 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:44.720 at the end of your podcast, your mutual group, anything 0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:48.040 that TV shows we should watch that you wrote. 0:46:48.920 --> 0:46:54.360 Nothing. I don't know, Yo's is racist, our premium shows 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:56.280 called YO. Can we Live? Or we don't talk about 0:46:56.960 --> 0:46:58.560 stuff that is horrible. 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:01.479 That I haven't listened to that yet. 0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:06.279 Just you know, just a way to decompress a little bit. Yeah, 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:09.279 that's about it. I don't know, I'm around. 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:12.319 Okay, Well, if you want to keep up with me, 0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:14.680 I don't know. I say that every single time. I 0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:17.400 guess I probably probably when this comes out, I'm probably 0:47:17.440 --> 0:47:19.839 in the middle of kickstarting a book, which means I'm 0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:22.839 probably if this is March twenty twenty five that you're 0:47:22.880 --> 0:47:25.160 listening to it, I'm probably kickstarting the third book in 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:28.440 the Danielle Kine series, The Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice, 0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:31.960 and it is available either through Kickstarter or if you're 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:33.399 listen to this in the future, you can just buy 0:47:33.440 --> 0:47:37.359 it probably, And there's audiobooks of all three books, so 0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:40.400 if you haven't heard the other ones, you can start 0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:43.120 with the audiobooks, or are the regular books which you 0:47:43.160 --> 0:47:46.439 can just get and I'll talk to you all soon. 0:47:51.600 --> 0:47:54.120 Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:57.240 cool Zone Media. A more podcasts on cool zone Media, 0:47:57.400 --> 0:48:00.920 visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com. Check us out on 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:03.640 the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:04.960 You get your podcasts.