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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 2: your weekly podcast that when there's bad things, there's good

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Speaker 2: things too. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and my guest

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Speaker 2: today is one of my favorite returning guests, Andrew Tea.

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Speaker 3: Oh thanks, Hi.

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Speaker 2: I always get excited when you're the guest, because well,

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Speaker 2: I like all my guests equally. Yeah, I can't. I

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Speaker 2: can't show any preference.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't do that. There's no call for this line

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Speaker 3: of flattery. But thank you.

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Speaker 2: Enter t is the host of the podcast EO is

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Speaker 2: this racist? And also, okay, this specific flattery I think

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Speaker 2: I could do. You're my favorite guests to talk about

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Speaker 2: mutual aid with.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, I feel like I probably comment at it from

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Speaker 4: a good place of I'm pretty new.

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Speaker 3: To it all things considered, and.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've kind of like been around, but there

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Speaker 4: have been times in my life when I was more

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Speaker 4: involved in less and yeah, i've been, you know lately

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Speaker 4: because of how things have been going in LA and

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Speaker 4: I guess the world trying to really really double down

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Speaker 4: and just make sure whatever community we have is as

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Speaker 4: strong as it can be.

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Speaker 2: I mean that makes sense. I think that a lot

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Speaker 2: of it isn't an EBB and a flow, Like I'm

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Speaker 2: not directly doing mutual aid right now, besides like some

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Speaker 2: specific friends or whatever here and there, you know. But yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: So my question before I even get into the topic.

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Speaker 2: You live in a city that very famously didn't quite

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Speaker 2: burn down recently? Yeah, how's that going? How are mutual

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Speaker 2: aid efforts going out there?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: How things been?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like from my perspective, it was

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Speaker 4: very impressive. I well, I guess I don't know, because

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm more plugged in than I ever

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Speaker 4: have been. So I was able to be on through

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Speaker 4: Solidarity and snacks folks. I was able to which is

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Speaker 4: a group that I mostly do work with, and so

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Speaker 4: I was able to like kind of get in and

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Speaker 4: least see like a lot of the chat and the

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Speaker 4: chatter and the planning from the early side of things.

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Speaker 3: So that to me it was very impressive. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I'm sure people with more experience this is maybe

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Speaker 4: pretty normal, but or maybe not.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I don't have any basis for evaluating how actually impressive

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Speaker 4: it is, but it seemed.

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Speaker 3: Very impressive to me.

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Speaker 4: The thing I was mostly focused on was trying to

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Speaker 4: get masks out to.

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Speaker 3: The sort of larger population, especially on house.

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Speaker 4: Folks down on skid Row because the air quality was

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Speaker 4: so unbelievably bad.

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Speaker 3: I guess it still is, but.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so but it was nice watching like warehouses essentially

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Speaker 4: pop up at various like a lot of bike shops,

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Speaker 4: a lot of gallery spaces, a lot of little warehouse

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Speaker 4: like work type spaces, and seeing things get distributed as

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Speaker 4: efficiently I think as they could be. And also just

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Speaker 4: kind of being cognizant of what needs are much harder

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Speaker 4: to meet with just community, you know, obviously none of

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Speaker 4: us had access. Maybe not obviously, and maybe I don't know,

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Speaker 4: maybe things have changed sort of muted the signal group

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Speaker 4: because it was pretty high traffic, what relatable you know,

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Speaker 4: we don't have things like bulldozers or like super high

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Speaker 4: end ppe. Yeah, and so there were limits to what

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Speaker 4: could be done.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me give you a piece of advice about bulldozers. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're all keyed the same based on the manufacturer.

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Speaker 3: Just throwing that out there. Yeah, good to know, Good

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Speaker 3: to know.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, there also largely wasn't that type of need, so

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Speaker 4: who knows what would have happened if things needed to

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Speaker 4: truly happen. But it felt like watching the pieces come

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Speaker 4: into place. I was like, Okay, this is how this goes.

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Speaker 4: And so I I guess I from from where I sit,

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Speaker 4: I don't have an amazing objective basis for evaluating how

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Speaker 4: it all went.

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Speaker 3: But to my eyes, it seemed like it went well.

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Speaker 2: But I mean that's kind of the thing about something

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Speaker 2: like mutual aid. It's like not to say it always

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Speaker 2: goes well, but on some level it always goes well.

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Speaker 2: It always does. Whatever we can do is a positive thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's something that wasn't being done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there there's an element of sort of

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Speaker 4: like I guess it is, you know, in the business

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Speaker 4: type world of managing expectations and.

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Speaker 3: Like, yeah, but it is. It is true.

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Speaker 4: It is like like pushing a boulder or any any

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Speaker 4: amount you push the boulder is a place where it

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Speaker 4: wasn't before. Yeah, you know, is it better than if

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Speaker 4: we had a functional government that it took our took

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Speaker 4: our tax dollars and appropriately them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah I'm not sure. Yeah. Is it the most efficient?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know it because of the.

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Speaker 4: Decentralized nature I it was obviously not the most directly

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Speaker 4: efficient way to do everything. Yeah, but things absolutely did

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Speaker 4: get done. I will say, during during sort of the

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Speaker 4: absolute thick of it, I was like, man, when when

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Speaker 4: the Mega people really got their heads up about Antifa

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Speaker 4: super soldiers. I think the biggest, the biggest problem with

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Speaker 4: you know, us as a fighting group is going to

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Speaker 4: be just making sure everyone shows up to the war

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Speaker 4: in time, which is gonna be a real fucking problem

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Speaker 4: when push comes a shop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And I mean it's funny because I

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Speaker 2: was late to this recording, but usually I try very

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Speaker 2: hard to put the punk in punctual.

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Speaker 4: I was just like, damn, there's a lot of a

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Speaker 4: lot of sitting around in parking lots for me this week.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone's everyone's about fifteen minutes late.

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Speaker 2: That's okay, Well that is actually oddly a good hm.

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Speaker 2: I'll just tell you what this episode is about. But

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Speaker 2: before I tell you what this episode is about, first,

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Speaker 2: I want to say we do have a producer, she's

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Speaker 2: not on the call right now. It is Sophie Lickterman.

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Speaker 2: We also have an audio engineer named Rory, and everyone

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Speaker 2: has to say hi to Rory.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Rory Hi, Rory.

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Speaker 2: And our theme music was written for us by unwoman.

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Speaker 2: And I was pondering this week. I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: what mutual aid story am I going to do? Because

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Speaker 2: I have Andrew as my guest nice and a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine brought up this story. It is a story

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Speaker 2: about mutual aid during just about as dark of a

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Speaker 2: time as you can imagine, the brightest lights in the

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Speaker 2: darkest darkes. It's my favorite kind of story. Yeah, this

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Speaker 2: is a story about all the people who stepped up

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Speaker 2: to care for people dying of AIDS in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 2: In particular, it's about the unbelievable number of lesbians who

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Speaker 2: came in to care for their queer brethren who were

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Speaker 2: abandoned by their families and society and the government and

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Speaker 2: the medical institutions. So this is my lesbians did amazing

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Speaker 2: shit during the AIDS crisis. Episode. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be called that. I probably can't cuss on

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Speaker 2: the title.

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Speaker 3: Amazing stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, have you have you heard about this at all?

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Speaker 2: This this thing?

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Speaker 4: I feel like yes, but I mean not anything specific,

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Speaker 4: just that like sort of like the in you know,

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Speaker 4: mentioning unsung heroes type situations.

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Speaker 3: I think totally just swhear it would have come up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's literally I didn't end up watching this.

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Speaker 2: I don't watch a lot of documentaries when I'm doing

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Speaker 2: my research, to try to stick to written sources overall,

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Speaker 2: but there's like different documentaries about many of these different groups.

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Speaker 2: I think one of them is literally called Unsung Heroes.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the name of Well, we'll talk about

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Speaker 2: that one later. Sure, we've talked a bit about the

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Speaker 2: history of queer rights and queer people on this show.

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Speaker 2: I think this is an understatement. If you want the

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Speaker 2: best rundown of how social movements look before Stonewall Riots

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Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty nine, or the best rundown that I

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Speaker 2: have done, check out our episode on the Stonewall Riots

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Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty nine. But in general, I would say

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Speaker 2: that lesbian and gay activism started off as a bit

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Speaker 2: separate from each other, but they would often intersect. Maybe

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Speaker 2: the best way I can think to put it is

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Speaker 2: that as cultural spaces, the two would stay fairly distinct

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Speaker 2: lesbian and gay, but in terms of activism and advocacy,

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Speaker 2: queer folks of all types found common cause with each

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Speaker 2: other often enough, and that was kind of where I

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Speaker 2: was coming at from it, But then I was also

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Speaker 2: reading more and more about like even in terms of

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Speaker 2: cultural spaces, there was a lot of overlap too. I

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Speaker 2: have read plenty of examples of stories about lesbian's bartending

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Speaker 2: at gay mail bars, for example, or queer discothechs for

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Speaker 2: all comers. You know. So the best way I say

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Speaker 2: this is really messy the interaction between gay and lesbian

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Speaker 2: activism and culture. While researching this episode, I ran across

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, especially people who weren't there, including me.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't there. I mean, I was technically alive during

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Speaker 2: that but I was not particularly active as a four

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Speaker 2: year old, and I ran across a lot of people

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Speaker 2: who weren't there talking about how incredibly divided gay and

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Speaker 2: lesbian scenes and people were from one another. But the

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Speaker 2: more I did the research, the more I found this

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Speaker 2: wasn't the case. There is a pattern that I've seen

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Speaker 2: a lot on the show, and I'm curious your opinion

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Speaker 2: about this pattern. But it seems like we have this

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Speaker 2: habit of looking back at history and emphasizing all the

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Speaker 2: divisions between various marginalized people instead of all the places

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Speaker 2: where we've worked in solidarity with each other and like

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Speaker 2: both things are true. Right. For example, I have read

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Speaker 2: so many things before I especially before I started doing

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Speaker 2: the show. I would read all the time about how

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Speaker 2: the early feminist movement was like wildly racist in the

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Speaker 2: United States. So those all white feminists who were just

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Speaker 2: pieces of shit in terms of race. Sure, and I

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Speaker 2: internalized that and I believed it, and absolutely there were

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Speaker 2: huge numbers of actively racist white feminists, especially in the

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Speaker 2: voting rights era of the early twentieth century. But then

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Speaker 2: as I would read nineteenth century history about the United

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Speaker 2: States and the abolitionist movements, a fock ton of the

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Speaker 2: early white abolitionists were women who were quite actively also

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Speaker 2: fighting for the rights of women, and they're like the

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Speaker 2: same social circle more or less.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I wonder, I mean, obviously, I think it's the

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Speaker 4: headline is more surprising. The divisions are emphasized just because

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Speaker 4: you know, in a vacuum without any external information, I

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Speaker 4: guess I would just, you know, war one would just

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Speaker 4: assume that like all queer people stick together and then

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Speaker 4: so so it's like more notable the whatever divisions are there.

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Speaker 4: It would be my only guess, like.

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Speaker 3: That's so fair.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense I like I'm so cynical that I'm

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Speaker 2: like uncynical again where I'm like it helps the powers

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Speaker 2: that be to focus on our divisions, you know, yes,

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Speaker 2: but it also like like we shouldn't erase our differences.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't pretend like yeah, fucking white feminists haven't been

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Speaker 2: really shitty or like that, like gay men can't be

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Speaker 2: misogynists or like, you know, yeah, but I.

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Speaker 4: Think it you're you're absolutely right, though I do think

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Speaker 4: it goes sort of both ways in that like whatever

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Speaker 4: interest is like peaked by the divisions absolutely also like

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Speaker 4: serves the setus quo. So like there's no like nothing

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Speaker 4: to like hit the brakes on that or tap the

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Speaker 4: brakes on on that, like instinct, like whether it's like

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Speaker 4: writerly or like from the publishing perspective, like they just

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Speaker 4: want to put that out there and it helps, you know,

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Speaker 4: the people in power for it to be put out

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Speaker 4: there as well.

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Speaker 2: Totally like kind of like how like Twitter is a

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Speaker 2: nightmareland that creates divisions between people because likes and reacts

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Speaker 2: and blah blah blah are like more useful to the

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Speaker 2: algorith them and so therefore people who are angry are

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Speaker 2: more likely to comment than people who are like oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: totally yeah, yeah, you know.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's the same way that like, like you know,

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Speaker 4: just on any the internet is clearly but like even

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Speaker 4: before the Internet, like one complaint, you get one complaint,

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Speaker 4: but you won't get you know, a hundred satisfied customers

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Speaker 4: that are like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's it. And then also even like I

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Speaker 2: would never read the reviews of my own work, I

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Speaker 2: actually specifically try not to read the reviews of my

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Speaker 2: own work because I am very aware that I will

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Speaker 2: read ten reviews that will be like Margaret Kiljoy saved

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Speaker 2: my children from a burning building or whatever, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: and then I'll read like one that was like Margaret's

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Speaker 2: voice is bad or you know, I don't know, right.

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Speaker 3: And then I'm like it's like devastating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so maybe that's it. Maybe we like we

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Speaker 2: hear about we hear about the racist and we're like,

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Speaker 2: well fuck this whole thing.

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Speaker 4: You know, it becomes extra silient. Yeah, I will say

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Speaker 4: as far as like Twitter goes. On the first big

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Speaker 4: show I worked on, it was a show called Mixed Dish,

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Speaker 4: and when it came out, I created not a Twitter bot,

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Speaker 4: but if I was better at coding, it would have

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Speaker 4: been a bot that was called not with the word

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Speaker 4: not crossed out the Mixtish writer's room, and every time

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Speaker 4: there was a negative comment, I would just write via

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Speaker 4: the bot or not the not bot, but by the account. Okay,

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Speaker 4: but we worked really hard on this one. Under every

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Speaker 4: negative comment on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: That is so relatable when people come like because people

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Speaker 2: have like things that they could be critical about about

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Speaker 2: the things I do. But sometimes on some level, I

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Speaker 2: just always want to be like, do you know I

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Speaker 2: didn't sleep for like a week because I was trying

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Speaker 2: to get this right. And I know that I didn't

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Speaker 2: get it totally right, but like I have to put

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Speaker 2: out roughly two hours of history content every week, I

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Speaker 2: just don't sleep. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we're past the part of the Internet

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Speaker 4: where that could even work.

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Speaker 3: But it was very fun to me in the moment.

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Speaker 2: No, totally. Yeah, Okay. So gay rights in America before

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Speaker 2: the Stone, before Stonewall, most visible groups were very assimilationists

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Speaker 2: and pushing very hard for mainstream acceptance by like not

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Speaker 2: rocking the boat. But all along there were all these

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Speaker 2: kind of like unruly queers being unruly Stonewall was not

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Speaker 2: the first and not the last major riot by queers

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Speaker 2: who are sick of being mistreated by society. But after

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Speaker 2: some cops raided the Stonewall in in New York in

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, the gay liberation movement exploded onto the scene.

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Speaker 2: People were tired of asking nicely, and once people got

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Speaker 2: tired of asking nicely, shit started getting done. That's a

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Speaker 2: pattern you can see over and over again. As Frederick

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Speaker 2: Douglas the Black Abolitionists put it, power concedes nothing without

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Speaker 2: a demand. The seventies were a vital time in gay history,

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Speaker 2: as people started really coming out on moss and said

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Speaker 2: up all kinds of infrastructure that we rely upon today.

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Speaker 2: I remember I was talking to one of my friends

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Speaker 2: about this beforehand. I have relied on the infrastructure set

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Speaker 2: up by like gays fifty years ago, for like my

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Speaker 2: basic health care, completely unrelated to sexuality, just because I

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Speaker 2: was like broken, lived out of a backpack, you know,

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Speaker 2: and like I remember, I injured myself at one point

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Speaker 2: by having too heavy of a backpack I was living

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Speaker 2: out of and not being in my twenties anymore, It

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Speaker 2: turns out that you can carry a certain sized backpack

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Speaker 2: in your twenties that you can't carry onward, and I

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Speaker 2: like injured myself and so the only place that I

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Speaker 2: could go was this gay clinic and it was nice.

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Speaker 2: But then it's just like bonus points because they respect

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Speaker 2: my pronouns and it's nice and people are nice to you.

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Speaker 2: You know. I love gay infrastructure is the point, and

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Speaker 2: I think that gay infrastructure is one of the most

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Speaker 2: beautiful prefigurations of the world. I want everyone to get

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Speaker 2: to live in. A lot of that started getting set

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Speaker 2: up in the seventies. Unfortunately, a lot of it was

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Speaker 2: set up in the eighties because the eighties, yeah, were

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Speaker 2: the spoiler alert for history.

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Speaker 4: Real bad yeah, yeah, and bad at the time. But

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Speaker 4: also all the all the shit that's happening now got

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Speaker 4: started then or not, I got started before, but like

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Speaker 4: some of the major stuff really got rolling then, and

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Speaker 4: we're just kind of living with the results of how

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Speaker 4: how those people did the shit in the eighties.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's like we're listen, we're in like hyper

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Speaker 2: Reagan times. Like Reagan was like yeah you at the time,

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Speaker 2: I think people are like, I can't imagine something worse

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Speaker 2: than this, and you're like, then, fucking yeah. Pull my beer.

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Speaker 2: Trump comes in.

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Speaker 4: I know, I mean, we'll see, hopefully at the very minimum,

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Speaker 4: like Trump isn't sort of lionized in history. The way

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Speaker 4: that that is sort of the most infuriating thing is, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: people's at least at least in the nineties and two thousands.

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Speaker 4: I think people are coming around a little bit now.

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Speaker 4: But like their description of Ronald Reagan's like the fuck

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Speaker 4: out of here? The fuck are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: I was talking with one of my friends who works

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Speaker 2: in the piercing industry, and they were wearing, I can't

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Speaker 2: remember exactly, they were wearing a shirt that was like

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Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan's grave is a gender neutral bathroom. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: someone that they work with was a piercer, a gay

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Speaker 2: man who survived the eighties in San Francisco, which is

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Speaker 2: a hard thing to have done. And was just like,

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that people today still understand that Ronald

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Speaker 2: Reagan is a terrible person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, well and sort of even.

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Speaker 4: As he got like you know, no longer really there

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Speaker 4: and while he was still president.

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Speaker 3: That's the thing.

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Speaker 4: It's like, like, yeah, the Republican and right wing in

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Speaker 4: general like apparatus is this like he is a terrible person,

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Speaker 4: but it sort of doesn't matter, no, totally, like specifically him, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: like is this is what those folks want and we

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Speaker 4: are living with the consequences of not yeah, fucking taking

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Speaker 4: them seriously honestly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then obviously like some people did, some people tried,

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Speaker 2: and just like not enough, but like yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: and so in the eighties it was the dying time.

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Speaker 2: Gay men started showing up in hospitals as early as

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Speaker 2: about nineteen eighty one, well exactly nineteen eighty one, with

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Speaker 2: all kinds of rare cancers and diagnoses with what we

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Speaker 2: now understand as AIDS. Acquired immuno deficiency syndrome is caused

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Speaker 2: by an underlying virus HIV human immuno deficiency virus. They

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Speaker 2: didn't know that yet. The actual causes and means of

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00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,240
Speaker 2: transmission were going to be a hot topic for years.

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Speaker 2: At first, doctors looked at what was happening and called

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Speaker 2: it GRID gay related immune deficiency. This crisis was completely

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Speaker 2: and shamefully ignored by the government. It was like till

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven before Reagan i think, said the word

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Speaker 2: AIDS right. The treatment that people were receiving was shameful too.

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Speaker 2: When patients first started showing up destroyed immune systems. At first,

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Speaker 2: this makes some sense, doctors were rightfully afraid of getting

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Speaker 2: their patients any sicker, and so they wore head to

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Speaker 2: toe ppe in what was called colloquial as spacesuits. But

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Speaker 2: soon enough all kinds of healthcare professionals started wearing them

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Speaker 2: around AIDS patients out of fear for themselves instead of

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Speaker 2: the other way around. And the thing is, I've read

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Speaker 2: a couple of people like talking about, like how reasonable

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Speaker 2: was it of people to be afraid of AIDS patients

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Speaker 2: and stuff, And on some level, right, like, people didn't

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Speaker 2: know what this disease was. They didn't know how it spread,

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Speaker 2: and they knew that it had all one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: death rate, which is a really high death rate. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's about as high as it can get. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: But pretty early on, well, no one was quite sure

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Speaker 2: how the disease was spread. Doctors and epidemiologists were pretty

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00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 2: certain that it was not airborne and that it wasn't

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Speaker 2: spread by casual contact, just based on looking at the

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I wrote a script where I have

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Speaker 2: to say epidemiology a lot, but just based on the

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Speaker 2: like the spread of the disease, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was.

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Speaker 4: It's a little bit in retrospect some of the COVID

387
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Speaker 4: stuff too, where it was likely, especially like the wiping

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Speaker 4: down your groceries business, and it's like, okay, but if

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Speaker 4: it was transmitted like that, we'd all, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: the city of Wuhan would have been completely obliterated. Like

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Speaker 4: it just doesn't work like that. Yeah, but totally, I

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Speaker 4: will say, you know, obviously have a sense of where

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Speaker 4: this is going, and you know.

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Speaker 3: I sort of understand the doctor's perspective, but yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, totally, Like at the very beginning, you're like, whoa,

396
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Speaker 2: I don't know what that is, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to then spread it to everyone, and like, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a there's a certain sense. But yeah, that was

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Speaker 2: only for a brief moment. The medical establishment knew better

400
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 2: really soon. They knew pretty much right away that it

401
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,399
Speaker 2: wasn't casual contact or airborne, and then by nineteen eighty

402
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 2: three they realized it was blood born because of the

403
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: number of blood transfusion patients who were getting sick. And

404
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: this is the same year that researchers in France discovered

405
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Speaker 2: the virus underlying the disease HIV, but homophobia and fear

406
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 2: of disease worked really tightly together. Healthcare professionals were terrified

407
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: of catching gay cancer. No one would touch or breed

408
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: the same air as AIDS patients, so patients were completely isolated.

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Speaker 2: One aid's nurse, a guy named Guy Vanderberg, who is

410
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Speaker 2: himself hospitalized for a while, told ABC the food tray

411
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Speaker 2: was shoved into the room and everything was covered in plastic,

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Speaker 2: then everything was put into biohazard bags when it was

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Speaker 2: taken out. People were fully gowned when they came in,

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Speaker 2: even just to talk with me, And like, even if

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Speaker 2: this was reasonable, and there's very brief window where it was,

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Speaker 2: it's also just incredibly alienated and hard.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's like, solitary confinement is torture, literal torture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

420
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Speaker 3: That's even when you're not sick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. My personal anecdote around this is that

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Speaker 2: a close family friend of my family's has HIV and

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Speaker 2: he was diagnosed I think in the eighties, maybe the

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Speaker 2: early nineties, and he's this conservative man who goes to

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Speaker 2: a conservative church, and so when he went and told

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Speaker 2: the congregation that, you know, he had HIV. Everyone in

427
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Speaker 2: the congregation lined up to shake his hand like without gloves.

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Speaker 2: And this was like a huge fucking deal, you know, right,

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Speaker 2: because everyone consciously knew it was safe, but people were

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Speaker 2: still being real fucking shitty about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Fortunately, queer people themselves, gay people and lesbians are

433
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Speaker 2: as I understand it overrepresented in the medical profession, much

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00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: like you might think that ads are overrepresented in this podcast,

435
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Speaker 2: But I would argue that they are that they are. Yeah,

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00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: that's what I would are you too, But if you

437
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: get cooler zone media, then you don't have to listen

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Speaker 2: to them. You can only listen to my ad transitions instead.

439
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 2: But here's the ads, and we're back. The lesbian community

440
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: rallied really hard, and they rode to Gondor's aid when

441
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 2: the beacons were lit. They did not ask where was

442
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 2: Gondor when the westfold fell? I have to somehow put

443
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 2: in a Lord of the room's reference in every episode. Yeah, no,

444
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: it's just it's important. And one gay man it's actually okay.

445
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 2: The comparisons are going to get really strong though, right

446
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: because there's well okay, yeah, one gay man in San

447
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: Francisco spoke anonymously to the I news and said, quote,

448
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: suddenly the hospitals were full of lesbians who were volunteering,

449
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: volunteering to go into those rooms and help my friends

450
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 2: who were dying. I remember being so moved by them

451
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 2: because gay men hadn't been too kind to lesbians. We'd

452
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: call them fish and make fun of the butcher dikes

453
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: in the bar, and yet there they were.

454
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that is a you know, that that

455
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 4: is sort of like the differences and similarities that we

456
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: were talking about earlier right there, which is like there's

457
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 4: a difference between like poking fun at someone and like

458
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 4: a community.

459
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: Is dying totally totally. Yeah, like, yeah, we're going to

460
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: make fun of oh you got bad haircut. I'm going

461
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 2: to make fun of you until someone else messes with you.

462
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: Then it's a war, you know.

463
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know.

464
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 4: And without also like two needlessly tapping the present, we're

465
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 4: about to also enter into a time when the establishment

466
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 4: medical advice is about to be factually incorrect. Yeah, not

467
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 4: that it always hasn't been, sort of, but even more so,

468
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 4: I don't know, this is sort of an open question

469
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 4: to me, but it's like, whenever the next terrible thing

470
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 4: that is a probably virus hits, like probably, yeah, we

471
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 4: won't be able to necessarily, I mean, we probably pretty

472
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 4: actively won't be able to trust our CDC or NIH.

473
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 4: And again, with grains of salt, we never probably should

474
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 4: have wholly trusted them. However, they've mostly been correct, you know.

475
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 4: So whether it's you know, getting your measles vaccine or

476
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 4: you know, not trying to use nutrition to fight cancer

477
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 4: and mental mental health issues.

478
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: I don't know.

479
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 4: I don't know if there's like an EU like health

480
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 4: authority to follow or Chinese health authority to follow, but

481
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 4: don't follow the like.

482
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: And don't follow the American one, and don't let.

483
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 4: Their policies dictate your behavior, because we are going to

484
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 4: have to do stuff like this which is maybe not

485
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 4: technically advised or allowed by the establishment, but it is

486
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 4: the right thing to do, and you know, within reason.

487
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 4: I guess who knows what the next actual thing will be.

488
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,239
Speaker 4: But just because they say you're safe doesn't mean you are.

489
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: Just because they say you're in peril doesn't mean you are.

490
00:25:59,600 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 3: I know.

491
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 2: And it's like hard because it's like, well, this is

492
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: going to make it even harder to get people to trust, like,

493
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm clearly not like a big like the

494
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: state is a really good way of forming society, person,

495
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 2: but yeah, institutions that get together to solve things, Yeah,

496
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 2: I absolutely believe in and many of those are governmental

497
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: and yeah.

498
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 4: Well it's like the difference between like the broadly speaking,

499
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 4: the state, but also like the state is unfortunately the

500
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 4: best way to do some of these.

501
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: Things, Like yeah, definitely that we have available to us. Yeah.

502
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, it would be nice if it worked.

503
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like they're getting rid of all that part.

504
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: They're like, it's like, stop making the state look good,

505
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: you weird right wing libertarians. Yeah, like you're gutting all

506
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: the good parts of the state and you're keeping the

507
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: fucking cops in the military.

508
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 3: Yeah all right.

509
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: Well, so lesbians step up in so many ways during

510
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 2: this that it's overwhelming and I won't get into all

511
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: of it, but we'll start with blood, because starting in

512
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, men who have sex with men were

513
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: banned from donating blood in order to stop transmission through

514
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: blood transfusions. There's there's some logic here, right, HIV tests

515
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: weren't available yet, but this ban went on way too long.

516
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 2: Do you want to guess what year men who had

517
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: sex with men were able to donate blood again without

518
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: discrimination in the United States.

519
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: I only know this because I was asked in my

520
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 4: adulthood so deep into the twenty to two thousand somethings,

521
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 4: Is that right.

522
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 2: Two years ago? Twenty twenty three? Okay, yeah, yeah, no,

523
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: that's actually a good point. Yeah, all of us have gone. Yeah.

524
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty fucking three, they finally changed the rules.

525
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, men who have sex with men were

526
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: allowed to donate blood if they hadn't had sex in

527
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: the last three months. Nowadays, the rule is anyone regardless

528
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 2: of extra gender, can donate blood, so long as they

529
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: haven't had anal sex with a new partner or slept

530
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: with multiple new partners in the past three months, and

531
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: that I'm not an expert here. That sounds reasonable. Yeah,

532
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: make it across the board and not about sexuality. That

533
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: seems good. I don't know.

534
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. But also it feels like we could also just

535
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: screen for I.

536
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 4: Mean, if you're just worried about HIV, it's like, just

537
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 4: check if there's HIV there.

538
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: I think, but I could be wrong. I think it's

539
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: because there's a roughly a three month period for the

540
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: efficacy of the testing.

541
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 3: Oh sure, sure, okay.

542
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: But I don't know how it relates to like bottled

543
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 2: blood or whatever.

544
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 3: It is.

545
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: Sure, but in nineteen eighty three men were suddenly told

546
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: that they couldn't donate blood. But AIDS patients need a

547
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: lot of blood transfusions, especially back then, so their own

548
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: immediate community couldn't support them. Fortunately, LGBT is a thing

549
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: for a reason. All of us letters are in it together.

550
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: The l stepped up the most famous group is probably

551
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: the most famous because branding is so important to being

552
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: remembered in history, is what I'm learning on this show too.

553
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: They were called the blood Sisters. Yeah, like you don't

554
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: forget the blood sisters.

555
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 4: Oh man, And just speaking of this is it's just

556
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 4: nice to get a Warhammer forty K reference in there.

557
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: Oh are there blood sisters and Warmmer? I'm a D

558
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: and D girl.

559
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: I don't think. I think so.

560
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 4: Hell yeah, it might be a Sisters of Blood or

561
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 4: something like that, just the bloody angels anyway.

562
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, So the Warhammer forty K girls stepped.

563
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 3: To the fuck uh.

564
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: The Women's caucus of the San Diego Democratic Club set

565
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: up a deal with a private blood bank to allow

566
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: donors to designate the recipients, so basically people could go

567
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: in and say, this is blood for people with HIV

568
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: and AIDS. Then they called for a blood drive on

569
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: July sixteenth, nineteen eighty three, and called on all the

570
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: lesbians in San Diego, being that like fifty people would come,

571
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: but the very first blood drive, two hundred people came

572
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: with a line around the block. Peggy Heathers, a blood sister, said, quote,

573
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: women came out of the woodwork, women that didn't want

574
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: to have anything to do with men, even gay men.

575
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: And I fucking love that. Even the hardcore lesbian separatists

576
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: were like, look, I don't want to live with men,

577
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to date men. I don't want to

578
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: organize with men. I'm not going to see them fucking

579
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: die abandoned because of their sexuality.

580
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, like, well, I mean it also is just sort

581
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 4: of like the right triangulation. It's like, listen, even if

582
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 4: I don't want anything to do with men, the worst

583
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 4: men are the ones that are perpetrating this upon gay men.

584
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: Like totally, totally, there's still the real enemy.

585
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: Let's not let's not and never be confused about who

586
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 4: the real enemy.

587
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,239
Speaker 2: Is yeah, totally, and I just like, I love that.

588
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 2: I love that they were like, yeah, like you know,

589
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: you're still as being separatists and we're still coming to

590
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: help you. The Blood Sisters continued for years. I have

591
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: read that they continued before this is my favorite part

592
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: about multiple sources, and I've read that they continue for

593
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: four years. I've read that they continued until nineteen ninety six.

594
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: Either way they stayed, I'm guessing that they stayed particularly

595
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: active until the very first treatments of the late eighties

596
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: kicked in, and then active to some degree for a

597
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 2: decade after that until about nineteen ninety six. Is when

598
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: you get the well I keep saying about in nineteen

599
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: ninety six, you get the sort of cocktail three drug

600
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 2: regimen that started dramatically improving peoples odds, you know.

601
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 4: And the other side of it is like whether they

602
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 4: were like continuing as a Blood Sister's like you know,

603
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 4: under the Blood Sister's banner. There is the thing, you know,

604
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 4: sort of mirroring my story, which is like once you

605
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 4: get started, you do more like totally and I do

606
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: think like a you know, the tiny silver lining for

607
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: these crises is it does get regular people or maybe

608
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 4: even slightly apathetic people and to like be like, Okay,

609
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 4: I gotta do fucking something then like something that gets

610
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 4: you know something else. No, yeah, enough of the time

611
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 4: that you know, things become real.

612
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: No, that's a good point. Yeah, you just got to

613
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: like get people into the inertia of trying to help.

614
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah.

615
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: And I don't know if the blood Sisters were the

616
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: first or if they were the one that gets written

617
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: about the most because they have a sick name. The

618
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: idea spread. Lesbians ran blood drives in at least San Francisco, Denver, Boston,

619
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, Baltimore, Memphis, and DC. I suspect it's more

620
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: than that, because I've read about lesbian support and a

621
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: bunch of other cities beyond that. The San Francisco blood

622
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: drive was led by the National Organization of Women, and

623
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: they would put up flyers that say, our boys need

624
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: our blood fucking good.

625
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 4: And it's also like, because I do think just to

626
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 4: like reach kind of the normal people, you do got

627
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: to do essentially war propaganda for stuff like this.

628
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And also, I mean this whole thing we're

629
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: gonna talk about a little later, This whole thing is

630
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: strangely like war, you know. Yeah, well yeah, and queer

631
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: newspapers continued to say basically like, hey, lesbians, please donate

632
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 2: blood or to quote the newspaper coming out, which I

633
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: believe is San Francisco paper, they should do it, to

634
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: quote stand by our brothers and fighting the AIDS epidemic.

635
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

636
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: An author named Jennifer Wilde, who was writing for the

637
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: queer Irish magazine GCN, put it like this, the drives

638
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: also gave more than just blood. They were also away

639
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: for the men suffering to know that they were loved

640
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: and part of a supportive community that will always do

641
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: what must be done to overcome adversity.

642
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

643
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing where like real almost cheesy

644
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: like phrasing, it's just appropriate. You're like, yeah, no, that's

645
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: what happened. They absolutely We were like, you're part of

646
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: a supportive community. We don't want you to die alone.

647
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: Like yeah.

648
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 4: Well, and also it is like like this is such

649
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 4: a wonderful example of like laws and power are just

650
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 4: people doing shit to other people. And like as bad

651
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 4: as the stuff gets and as has been, like you know,

652
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 4: when gay men weren't allowed to donate blood, really what

653
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 4: this means is they just they need blood, like blood

654
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 4: is needed, and if we can get blood in this

655
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 4: instance to people, then it sort of is a counteraction

656
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 4: to the bigotry and the fucking hate that is out there.

657
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 4: Like you can just reverse it, yeah, or you can

658
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 4: try or you do something.

659
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what, we can't reverse the continued

660
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: march of all of the brilliant products and services who

661
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: I love.

662
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 4: We can try. Are you going to listen to the

663
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 4: ad first to figure out how?

664
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, your enemy listen to these ads. Actually some

665
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: of them are probably for good things. That's the hard

666
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: part is that sometimes we get ads for nice things,

667
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: like other podcasts. I like podcasts. I don't mind learning

668
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 2: about podcasts through podcasts.

669
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 4: That seems fine, yes, yes, but that does start to

670
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 4: feel like a Ponzi scheme a little bit.

671
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 3: That's true.

672
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: Podcast advertising on other podcasts feels like hold on, well

673
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 4: right now.

674
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: And then people are like, how come all your guests

675
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: are podcasters? And I'm like, I see your point, But

676
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 2: all my guests are podcasters because they know how to podcast,

677
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: because it's actually a trained skill that takes effort and

678
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: also takes equipment, and not all of our guests are

679
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: podcasters anyway, but all of our guests listen to ads.

680
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: Actually that's not true. We don't listen them while we're recording,

681
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: but here they are, you can listen to them. Let's go.

682
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 3: And we're back.

683
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: So lesbian stepped up to donate blood, and lesbian doctors

684
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: and nurses stepped up to directly care for AIDS patients.

685
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: But it went even deeper than that. In nineteen eighty one,

686
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: a game and named Howie Dare He was a fourth

687
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: grade teacher with a master's degree in counseling, and a

688
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: lesbian therapist named Candy Markham started a gay counseling center

689
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: in Dallas after seeing clinics in New York and Houston

690
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: that were counseling centers for gay folks. This is before

691
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: it was going to be an HIV thing. Everyone needs

692
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: counseling and therapy sometimes, right, But if you're part of

693
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: a criminalized community, that puts extra stress on your life,

694
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: and most therapists that were available weren't exactly queer competent,

695
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: let alone queer friendly. So they start up this hotline.

696
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: They opened up the Oaklawn Counseling Center in the gahborhood

697
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: and then they went around to bars and wherever people

698
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: hung out to tell people about it. Then the two

699
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: of them went to a gay mental health conference in Houston,

700
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: because hell yeah, queer infrastructure. There was a gay mental

701
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 2: health conference in Houston in nineteen eighty one, and they

702
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: learned about this shitty new thing called Grid that was

703
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: killing gay men and trans women on the coasts. So

704
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 2: they decided to turn one of their phone lines into

705
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: a GRID hotline. Even before Grid hit the city. Candy

706
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: was like, we don't know anything about this disease yet.

707
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: I'm paraphrasing her, but how he said, and I quote, yes,

708
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: I know, but we will and we need to be prepared.

709
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: So I really like this man because he is a handsome, prepper,

710
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 2: leather daddy school teacher with a master's degree and like

711
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: was a mental health king.

712
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 3: He's fucking cool, amazing.

713
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can read all kinds of like I didn't

714
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: put all of it in here, but like he wrote

715
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: a lot. Well, I'll get to it, okay. Within a

716
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: few months, AIDS came to Dallas. And the thing is

717
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: is that AIDS untreated kills more or less everyone who

718
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 2: gets it, and there were no treatments for years. I

719
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: don't know if I've read anything quite so much like

720
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: war as the AIDS crisis. Every account I've read about

721
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: this time in any city or town talks about people

722
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: going to multiple funerals a week, and that the gay

723
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: accepting churches were running two to three services a day. Actually,

724
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,479
Speaker 2: the specific I think it was called the MCC the church,

725
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 2: the Queer accepting church in Dallas at this time lost

726
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 2: i think a third of its own clergy days. The

727
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 2: hotline that they had set up, this grid hotline was

728
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: staffed at first mostly by gay men. The quote worried

729
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 2: well because it's like if you're a gay man and

730
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 2: this time you're either sick or you're the worried well right,

731
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: because you're like, well, I don't know what it's going

732
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: to be me.

733
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

734
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: Anytime anyone got sick, they were like, oh fuck, Like

735
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 2: I got a cold, I might be dead now, you know, right.

736
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: The community centered around this health clinic set up a

737
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: buddy system where sick men would be placed with healthy

738
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: folks who could care for them. They had more than

739
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: one hundred registered buddies. These were sort of in addition

740
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: to if you have like a full time caretaker, like

741
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: if you live with your partner, or you live with

742
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: your parents, or someone else's like caretaking for you. You

743
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: also have a buddy system on top of that to

744
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: help relieve that careme taking right, and this model of

745
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 2: direct care and mutual laid spread to other cities. They

746
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: also set up an adult day care center so that

747
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: people with AIDS could come and be taken care of

748
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: in the center during the day so that their caretakers

749
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: could catch a break. All the while how He is

750
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: running all this shit alongside Candy. He's also teaching math

751
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: to incarcerated people at the county jail. In addition to

752
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: be like he's like a college teacher, a fourth grade teacher,

753
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 2: institutionalized people teacher, and a bartender and running a counseling service.

754
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 2: He fucking burned the candle of both ends.

755
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: Jesus, that's so exhausting. But I know good. I know.

756
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty five, when how He was thirty seven

757
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: years old, he was diagnosed with HIV. It was his

758
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: friend and co worker, Candy, the other therapist who was

759
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: his buddy in the buddy system, who was assigned to him.

760
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 2: His mom was a nurse and took care of him too,

761
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: and He died in nineteen eighty six at thirty eight

762
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 2: years old, with his mother by his bedside, as were

763
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: his wishes. His ashes were spread and his mother's rose garden.

764
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: And I was like, as I was writing this, I

765
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know, I'm gonna be able to

766
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: read this without crying. Like Candy kept going. All of

767
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: her male friends were dying, and she spent all of

768
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: her time doing pro bono therapy in hospitals and in

769
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: home care, and then would go and speak at their funerals.

770
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 2: And this wasn't easy for her. The group that she

771
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 2: was working with would set up housing for everyone who's

772
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: being kicked out by their families for being gay and sick.

773
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: And she talks about how often she would have therapy

774
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: clients who would bring their families and the poor client

775
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,959
Speaker 2: right who would have to come out both as gay

776
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: and dying in the same conversation. And Candy's job in

777
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: that situation, as best as I can tell, was to

778
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 2: try and convince the family to have a basic fucking

779
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: human decency right and like love and care for their child.

780
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: So fucking you know, I guess like it's grim to

781
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 4: think about that, and like grim to see like how.

782
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: Little humanity some folks have. But I guess you also

783
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: just never know.

784
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like I come from a family where

785
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: I like, can't imagine that having happened to me. Yeah,

786
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: I can imagine family or relatives or whatever who would

787
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: be like shitty to me or make fun of me,

788
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: or not know how to talk about it and be

789
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: awkward or like it's gender me and god, I'm not

790
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: trying to talk shit to my family. I could imagine

791
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: all of these things. Yeah, yeah, but the like you

792
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: are not our child to get out of here, which

793
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: happens still happens to so many fucking queer kids. I

794
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: just like I can't. I'm like, yeah, Like it's it's

795
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: like could you could you have we put the bar

796
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: on the floor, like could you step over it? Hell,

797
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: it might even be buried under the ground. You just

798
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: have to walk normal. Yeah, And instead they're like, no,

799
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna dig up that bar and trip on it.

800
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: You have to dig. You have to dig to be

801
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 4: to be that bad. But yeah, or maybe you don't

802
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 4: because it is reflexive for so many people clearly like that,

803
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: Like yeah.

804
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, And.

805
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: Basically, as best as I can tell, what happened in

806
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 2: the eighties is you have all of these queer health

807
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: services and counseling services and general infrastructure projects, right that

808
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,439
Speaker 2: people have been building for a while or maybe built

809
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: specifically around AIDS, but like often have been building for

810
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: a long time, and then one by one all of

811
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 2: the men in them would die, and so it would

812
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: be lesbians who would step up. Sometimes also straight women.

813
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm not to to totally cut them out of this picture.

814
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 2: Especially in San Francis, go end up reading about a

815
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 2: bunch of straight women who also a lot, but this

816
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: particular episode's focused on lesbians, and so you just have

817
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: this thing where like, like I've read all these people

818
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: who weren't there arguing about like, oh, why did women

819
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: have to do all the unpaid labor or whatever? The

820
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: fuck fuck you all of that shit, but like, yeah,

821
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: why couldn't the men take care of themselves because they

822
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: were dead?

823
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

824
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I don't know what.

825
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: To tell you.

826
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 4: I mean, it's like, you know, of course that the

827
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 4: grain of truth is in there, that is, that is

828
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 4: the work that falls to women so much, but absolutely

829
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 4: there is also an explanation.

830
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like gay men are also over represented

831
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 2: in carrying fields. Yes, yes, Like when I'm reading about

832
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: a lot of the like early health clinics and stuff,

833
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, it's gay men and lesbians who staffed them, right,

834
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: and then it was just lesbians left for some weird reason,

835
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: you know, right. But yeah, no, totally. There is still

836
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: a little bit of a like, yeah, you know, it's

837
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: like carrying work et cetera as gender. But like you

838
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 2: know what, like some work that is gendered is good

839
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: when people do it, like yeah, and so many nonprofit

840
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: leaders were dying in this period that Candy and other

841
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: folks set up a six month seminar series to onboard

842
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: lesbians to lead nonprofits. Right When she was interviewed later,

843
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: when she was asked what she would do have done

844
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 2: differently about her life, she says, you know what comes

845
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: to mind is I'd make a lot more money and

846
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: give it away. But you know, I worked as hard

847
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: as I could. I don't think I could have done

848
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: anything different. Like I said, I'm filled up from what happens.

849
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: I think it is the story of my life. I'm

850
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: pretty happy. Yeah, And so how do you have a

851
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: good life? You fucking find a way to help and

852
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: then you just fucking do it. Like, She's not the

853
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: only person I've read this week who's talking is looking

854
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: back on a life of helping people in this horrible crisis,

855
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: and a lot of the people I'm reading are like, yeah,

856
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 2: we all have PTSD now, or like, you know, it

857
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: majorly impacted them, but overall, the people who survived, who

858
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 2: were doing things are like, I'm I'm pretty proud of

859
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: myself in my community, and I've lived the best life

860
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: I could and I'm doing okay.

861
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, or look, everything comes with a cost, but you know,

862
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 4: there's also be like, however, like PTSD you might have,

863
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 4: I do think doing nothing would probably have made it worse,

864
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 4: totally right, And you know what, and that's not a guarantee,

865
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 4: of course, like different circumstances. But one of the bigger

866
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 4: benefits of you know, mutual aid is this is for you.

867
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: Too, absolutely, like and that's literally in the name mutual aid.

868
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah right, it's like, no, we're just people taking care

869
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: of each other. And right now it's me taking care

870
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: of you, you know. And it won't necessarily be exact reciprocal,

871
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: like oh well tomorrow you take care of me, yeah,

872
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: but someone will take care of me, yeah, you know.

873
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, it works. It worked. If everyone didn't, it just

874
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: would work. Society would work.

875
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: I know. It's one of the most frustrated things in

876
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: the world, is like, once you start seeing it happen,

877
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: you can unsee it, you know.

878
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

879
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, people want to take care of each other.

880
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, well some of us don't, but that's true. Yeah,

881
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: it's yeah.

882
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's what we got for part one. But

883
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: when we come back on part two, we're going to

884
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 2: talk about a whole bunch of other people helped, including

885
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: more lesbians and some nuns.

886
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 3: Amazing.

887
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you got anything you want to plug here

888
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: at the end of your podcast, your mutual group, anything

889
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: that TV shows we should watch that you wrote.

890
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 3: Nothing. I don't know, Yo's is racist, our premium shows

891
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 3: called YO. Can we Live? Or we don't talk about

892
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: stuff that is horrible.

893
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,479
Speaker 2: That I haven't listened to that yet.

894
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 4: Just you know, just a way to decompress a little bit. Yeah,

895
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 4: that's about it. I don't know, I'm around.

896
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, if you want to keep up with me,

897
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: I don't know. I say that every single time. I

898
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: guess I probably probably when this comes out, I'm probably

899
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 2: in the middle of kickstarting a book, which means I'm

900
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 2: probably if this is March twenty twenty five that you're

901
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: listening to it, I'm probably kickstarting the third book in

902
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: the Danielle Kine series, The Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice,

903
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: and it is available either through Kickstarter or if you're

904
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 2: listen to this in the future, you can just buy

905
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 2: it probably, And there's audiobooks of all three books, so

906
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 2: if you haven't heard the other ones, you can start

907
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: with the audiobooks, or are the regular books which you

908
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,439
Speaker 2: can just get and I'll talk to you all soon.

909
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

910
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. A more podcasts on cool zone Media,

911
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com. Check us out on

912
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

913
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: You get your podcasts.