WEBVTT - What's the Science of Changing Someone's Mind? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.000 Guess what, mango? What's that? Will all right, I've got 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.239 a name for you. Have you ever heard of William Playfair? 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.559 I don't think so, but I do like that name. Playfair. Yeah, 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:11.760 it is a good name. That's all I had to 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.160 say about it. Just was a fun name. But actually 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.119 it's an interesting name because in this case, playing Fair 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.720 is not exactly what the world did for this guy. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.200 So William was a Scottish man who pretty much invented 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.400 modern day infographics. You think about things like pie charts, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.640 the bar graph, the line graph, all of those things. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:32.800 I mean, it's pretty crazy to think that we actually 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.519 know who invented the bar graph for the pineff. It's 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:41.040 like knowing who invented the parallelogram or something. Well, why 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.000 didn't the world treat him well? Well, because they were 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.479 so stubborn. You see, prior to William coming along, you 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.200 had intellectuals who felt that information should always be presented 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.600 in writing and that trying to present information as pictures 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.800 was just dumbing it down and maybe even useless. So, 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.080 you know, just going back and and think about what 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.480 this guy's life was like. When when William was young, 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:05.920 he did a lot of work for his mathematician brother. 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.360 He'd help him record data, and over time he started 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.440 playing with this idea of putting data into a graphical format. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:16.280 And William credits his brother with teaching him how to 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.319 do this, so he says of him, John taught me 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:20.959 to know that whatever can be expressed in numbers may 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.480 be represented in lines. And so you fast forward a 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.839 decade or so and he ends up apprenticing with James Watt, 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.640 And yes, it's that James Watt who's steam engine disastin 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:35.480 really changed the world. Yeah, and underwat supervision, William continued 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.120 to hone this craft of data representation, so he parts 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.160 ways with what floats around from odd job to odd job, 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.840 and finally, in the late seventeen hundreds, he publishes something 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.240 called the Commercial and Political Atlas, And what he does 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.040 in this is he basically has this giant collection of 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:56.440 bar and line charts that are illustrating pretty complex financial 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.520 information about European countries. So you think people would give 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:02.880 him some sort of credit for this, but it largely 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.800 gets ignored. So he follows it a few years later 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.560 with something called the Statistical Breviary, and he pretty much 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.480 introduces the world to the pie chart. And I'm like you, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.520 I'm like, how did somebody actually invent this? But he 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.720 is the one that came up with this. And again, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.320 you think people would realize how helpful these devices could be, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:25.519 but instead he was mocked. I mean even his old boss, 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.000 James Watt. Here's how he described me. He first of all, 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.600 he described the book as quote mere plummery and described 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.680 William as a rascal. Yeah, and so you know, others 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.240 dismissed his work and they said geometrical measurement has not 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.960 any relation to money or to time, which is just absurd. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:45.799 But this is how people were responding to this. So 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.360 you know, despite these contributions to the way we represent 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:53.680 all this complex data today, William Playfair was pretty much 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.120 ignored and died in poverty. That's sad. So why do 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.079 you think he was just like dismissed like that. Why 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.240 why couldn't they see how helpful these graphs and charts 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.919 could be. Well, because people are stubborn, and once a mind, 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.240 and especially a group's mind is made up, it's really 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.440 difficult to change that way of thinking. So it took 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.560 decades before people started to warm up to this idea 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.160 of you know, information being represented in these ways, and 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.080 now it's impossible to look at a magazine or a 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.640 newspaper article without seeing infographics all over them. And you know, 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.880 the story reminded us of just how difficult it can 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.600 be to change someone's mind. So today that's what we're 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.040 talking about, the science behind us, the science behind changing 0:03:36.120 --> 0:04:00.400 people's minds. So let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners, 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.760 welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.800 always I'm joined by my good friend Manges Ticketer and 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:07.960 on the other side of the soundproof glass, the only 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.360 guy who still can't decide if he hears laurel or 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.720 Yung and Mango. I don't want to say Tristan's ever 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.320 done anything to annoy me, because he never has, but 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.360 this has been the closest to it. I mean, seriously, 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.640 he's probably listened to that clip a thousand times by now. 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.680 But that's our friend and producer, Tristan McNeil. I know, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.800 I feel like the Internet moved on from this ages 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.320 ago now Tristan, it's time for you to do the same. 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.440 It definitely is. But we we've got a show to do. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.240 And so while Tristan changes his mind over there probably 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.800 a dozen more times during this episode. Most of us 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.880 actually have the exact opposite problem. I mean, our minds 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.560 are made up about things and we won't change them 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.520 for anything or anyone. And this is something we've experience 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.600 all the time now, because, in case you haven't noticed, 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.560 we live in this increasingly polarized world. Whether it's an 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:03.200 unwillingness to compromise on political positions or even just these 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.920 silly debates about whether the newest Star Wars movie retroactively 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.479 ruined our childhoods, it seems like no one is willing 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.159 to give an inch on their opinions, and that's no 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.800 matter how many facts or reasoned arguments you throw at them. 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.080 So with all this discord in mind, we actually thought 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.200 it might be helpful to look into the science and 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.240 the psychology of how people change their minds, as well 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.200 as why we form such stubborn opinions in the first place. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.000 That's right, and I actually thought we could start with 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.719 a bit of neuroscience, because as tough as it is 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.200 to change someone else's mind, it turns out that it's 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.719 just as hard to change your own, even about the 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.000 little things. And that's because even a simple last minute 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.359 decision like stepping left to avoid a puddle, that involves 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:48.360 a complex system of communication between several brain regions, and 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.520 that means that these split second decisions often come too 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.040 late for our bodies to act on. Okay, So then 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.080 in your example, someone decides to move left a second 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.680 too late, so they end up walking through the puddle anyway, right, 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.760 Except the time window is even shorter than that. So uh, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.160 this team of researchers at Johns Hopkins, they recently concluded 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.839 that we have to change our minds within about a 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.720 hundred milliseconds and making a decision, and that's in order 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.800 for that new plan to be successful. So, as one 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.400 of the researchers put it, if we change our mind 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.400 about pressing the gas pedal even a few milliseconds after 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.719 the original go message has been sent to our muscles, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.520 we simply can't stop. And this problem only worsens as 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.279 we age because our neural communication tends to get slower 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.600 and slower, which is one reason why it falls are 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.679 so common among the elderly, like their decisions to alter 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.839 course or even to cash themselves are simply made too 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.240 slowly to be carried out, And so does this time 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.760 limit apply strictly the decisions about physical movements like where 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.400 to walk or the pedal to press or or is 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.520 this also related to behavioral actions too, I mean, it 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.919 definitely applies to both. In fact, one aim of the 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.279 research I mentioned is to find ways to help people 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.080 with drug addictions make a faster decision, and this is 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.880 to ignore their pulses to use. So the idea is 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:03.880 that the sooner a person can change their mind about 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.560 a plan to use a drug, less likely they'll actually 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.720 be to act upon that plan. That's interesting, and I 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:11.800 guess it makes sense that time is such a big 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.520 factor in whether these last minute decisions are successful. I mean, 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.400 it's sort of how it goes with changing your mind 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.000 in general, right, Like, it seems like the longer the 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.400 person has held a certain opinion, the harder it is 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.920 for them to reverse that position. And that's, of course, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:27.600 even if there's a lot of evidence that their view 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:29.840 may be wrong. Yeah, that sounds right to me, because 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.480 I mean, we do have facts and we have beliefs, 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.000 and ideally everyone would recognize and readily admit the difference 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.560 between those two things. But in practice, humans sent to 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.200 argue on behalf of a third category which are the 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.160 things we want to believe so badly that we treat 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.640 them as if they were facts even though they're not. 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.920 And that's where this confirmation bias comes in, and we 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.920 start to trust sources that just support our own viewpoints, 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.320 and that's over things that actually challenge our perceptions. Well, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.480 and this is really something that we're all guilty of 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.880 and in some fashion, because as much as we like 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.679 to pretend that we're always rational and fair, the truth 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:07.440 is that each and every one of us has our 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.360 own biases. So and obviously it's just part of human nature. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.840 There was actually this study about a decade ago that 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.280 found that as young as three months old, humans already 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.239 prefer the faces of those who share their skin color 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.960 to the faces of those who don't. And then by 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.040 the age of five, we're already conscious of the status 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.400 of our families and our friends circles, including how they're 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.920 viewed and treated in relation to other groups. So it 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.679 really isn't a question of whether or not people have biases. 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:37.920 It's more about the degree to which we let those 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.440 biases influence the way we view and interact with the world. 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.000 And studies have shown that if you can recognize your 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.000 bias on certain issues, you'll likely be more open to 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.760 changing your mind in light of any new evidence that 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.720 may be presented. That's really interesting. So well, what do 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.520 you think determine someone's willingness to change their minds? Then, well, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.959 I think it comes down largely to what we're changing 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.480 our minds about, because if you think about it, we 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.200 change our minds based on new information all the time, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.000 just in everyday life. I mean, you pick out something 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:09.559 to wear one day, you think it's going to be 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.120 a sunny day, you find that it's going to be raining, 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.360 so you change your mind and your clothes, and it's 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.760 no big deal. But you know, things aren't as easy 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.439 when it comes to something much heavier, like something people 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.000 consider deeply important or that may define them in some way. 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.480 So with issues like that, it's almost like no news 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.800 report or research study is going to change someone's mind 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:32.800 because at the end of the day, I mean, people's 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.720 misperceptions and false beliefs, they have less to do with 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:40.120 political affiliation or I don't know, maybe like a lack 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.880 of education, and much more to do with self identity, 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:46.360 and you know, with how they view themselves through the 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.120 lens of an issue that they care about. So I 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.120 think a great example of that is with evolution and 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.800 the Big Bang. Like a whole slew of studies have 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.040 shown that belief or disbelief in those theories typically aligns 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.559 with the person's religious and culturally. So if someone refuses 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.640 to change their mind about evolution, it doesn't mean they're 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.760 unfamiliar with the science. It's more that they see evolution 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.920 as a threat to their ideology and, by extension, their identity, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.920 so changing their mind doesn't seem like a legitimate option. Well, 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.880 of course, that makes it extremely tricky to change someone's 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.400 mind about an issue like this, because I mean, how 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.560 do you make a case for something like evolution to 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.880 folks without making them feel like they're even their core 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.160 beliefs are under attack. Yeah, I mean, tearing down someone's 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.560 self identity definitely isn't the way to win them over. 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.960 But I was reading about this biology professor. He's named 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.559 Kenneth Miller, and he's made headway by highlighting the compatibility 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.079 of science and religion. And this is compared to the alternate, 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:43.920 which is, you know, harping on their apparent differences. So 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.040 whenever he comes up against someone who's anti evolution. He 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.760 points out connections between science and religion as a way 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.520 of showing that both can co exist. For example, this 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.960 is something I hadn't even heard before, but the Belgian 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.320 scientist who laid out the math behind the Big Bang, 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.480 he was actually a Catholic priest. Oh really, I've never 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.320 heard that somehow, But I'm actually glad you're bringing up 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:09.040 people's beliefs about science, because, aside from politics, that's probably 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.480 the area where we push the hardest to change each 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.439 other's minds. And that's whether it's about evolution, or climate change, 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.840 or genetically modified foods or I mean, there are so 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.600 many of these topics. And that's why I was surprised 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.760 to learn that when it comes to policy issues, Americans 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.000 actually trust science leaders more than they do leaders in 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.120 other sectors, and of course that includes business and even government. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.679 Well I'm not so sure about that, because, like the 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:36.760 last time I checked, there's still this chunk of the 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.160 population who sware the Earth is flat. Well, this is 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.800 according to a two thousand and sixteen study by the 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.760 National Science Foundation, and apparently more respondents said they have 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.000 quote a great deal of confidence in the knowledge and 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.760 impartiality of scientists than they do in any other institution. 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.720 That's with the exception of the military. That's really interesting. 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.760 But if if people trust scientists so much, like, why 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.680 are there so many flat earthers out there? Well, I 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.760 think in general is the key phrase here, because most 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.360 people likely do recognize that science is a pretty rigorous 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.199 field and you know, has this long history of trying 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.080 to deliver accurate results. But you know, I think the 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.080 problem really starts when specific issues bump up against those 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.480 ideological beliefs that we were talking about before. And actually, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:24.760 here's a quote from Scientific American that that gives a 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:28.160 good example of this. And here's what it says. Our 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.400 innate desire to be accurate conflicts with other motives, some 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.440 of them unconscious. People hold beliefs to protect important values. 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.800 For example, individuals who think of nature as sacred may 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:43.400 perceive genetic modification as morally wrong, regardless of its safety 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.520 or utility. People also whole beliefs that are rooted in 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.320 their emotions. A flu pandemic that can cause widespread death 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.200 among the innocent may cause feelings of fear and helplessness. 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.160 The one way to cope with those emotions is to 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.680 belittle warnings of a pandemic as impossible, which makes sense, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.840 but it's also kind of scary to think about because 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.080 it shows just how bad we are at judging whether 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.320 our views are rational or irrational. Like, even if our 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.959 views are only based on bias or emotion, we can 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.400 still find ways to dupe ourselves into thinking those beliefs 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.199 are truly based on facts or reason. I mean, if 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.400 you think about global warming, one or two descending scientists 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.400 is all it really took to perpetuate the idea that 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.480 climate science is controversial or still a matter of debate 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.560 in the scientific community, and that kernel of doubt was 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.080 enough to validate the belief that it's all a hoax 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.680 and some other people's minds, even if they consider themselves 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.000 science supporters in general, Yeah, you're right, And it's it's 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.200 also kind of ironic when you think about it, because 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.240 scientists are probably the most adept when it comes to 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.160 changing their beliefs in light of new information that they 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.920 may have, and I mean revising theories to match the 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.680 current evidence. Is it's kind of their whole m o. 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.520 So it's it's it's pretty sad when you have issues 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.679 where there's near consensus among the scientific community, and yet 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.120 they're still so easily dismissed by some people. Yeah, and 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.560 to play devil's advocate, I do think some people just 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.480 aren't aware of what scientists actually think about certain issues. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.640 Like a few years back, the Pew Research Center released 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.120 this report where thirty seven percent of respondents said that 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.080 they didn't think scientists agreed on climate change, while in 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.560 reality of scientists say climate change is a serious problem. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.680 So in this case, the misinformation campaigned about how quote 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.800 unsettled the issue is really seems to have worked, like 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.120 people were convinced that the science was still uncertain and 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.680 they didn't take the time to double check that claim themselves. Well, see, 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.960 and to me that that says that although climate change 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.120 is a scientific issue at its core, it's really become 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.880 more of an ideological one for most of us. I mean, 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.960 nowadays our belief for disbelief in global warming is really 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.440 an expression of identity more than anything else, and it's 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.720 a way of showing which groups we belong to. Alright, Well, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.640 I I do sense that we're heading into the realm 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.480 of politics here. So before we open that particularly kind 0:14:55.520 --> 0:15:12.560 of worms, why don't we take a quick break. You're 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.360 listening to part time genius and we're talking about the 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.480 messy science of how to change another person's mind. Okay, Well, 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:19.560 so we mentioned how people tend to dig in their 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.560 heels on issues they connect to their own identities, and 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.560 as a result, they'll do any sort of mental gymnastics 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.520 necessary to avoid changing their minds on the subject. But 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:32.080 that makes a lot of sense with moral or religious considerations. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.800 But you said global warming is a matter of identity 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.760 now too, So how does that work exactly? All right? Well, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.720 think about how so much of human identity is tied 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.240 up with the groups that we form, whether that's family 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:48.320 or friends, or you know, colleagues or even political parties. 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.520 So the downside of having your individual identity wrapped up 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.080 in groups is is that we do run that risk 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.040 of giving into tribalism, you know, when those beliefs or 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.720 values of those groups are under question. And actually, this 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.320 is the same thing you'll see even with something as 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.000 extreme as like cults, because that sense of belonging becomes 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.640 so important that members will will actually ignore any information 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.920 that threatens that feeling. And in the same way, you know, 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.040 we don't want to lose membership, and the groups that 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.280 are important to us. And so today, you know, you 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.880 think about how important political parties are to a lot 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.200 of people, and it's a stronger part of our identity 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.440 than ever before. And for example, recent polls show that 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.120 not only do die hard liberals and conservatives try to 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.360 avoid spending time together whenever possible, they even feel unhappy 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.080 if a family member is married to somebody else from 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.920 across the aisle. So what you're saying is that the 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.560 issue of climate change isn't strictly a scientific one anymore. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.880 It's become so politicized that it's basically a way to 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:50.320 signal which political and social groups you belong to. Yeah, 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:51.920 it is, and you know, and people aren't likely to 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:53.960 change their minds on something like that, and that's no 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.040 matter what the science says, because you know, on some level, 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.880 they don't want to jeopardize their standing with their group. 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.080 And it's actually pretty fascinating how much group mentalities factor 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.720 into all of our decision making. Well, that connection actually 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.840 goes even deeper, because some scientists now believe that humans 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.639 developed reason in the first place as this way to 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.880 deal with the problems associated with living in groups, which 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.280 is really interesting because we always assume that humans of all, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.919 reason is a way to solve these abstract puzzles or 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.359 to like draw conclusions from evidence. But according to this 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:30.120 pair of cognitive scientists named Hugo Mercy and Dance Berber, 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.639 reason is really an adaptation to the hypersocial niche humans 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.160 have evolved for themselves, all right, So just to try 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.320 to break that down, I mean, what what what kind 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.480 of hyper social problems was reason actually meant to help 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.200 with the main one is making sure you don't get 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.000 taken advantage of by members of the group. So this 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.040 makes sense if you think about it, because humans first 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.919 lived together in small groups of hunter gatherers, where social 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.720 standing was everything and each member of the group needed 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.600 to pull their own weight. But inevitably you'd have some 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:01.679 lazy people in the group, you know, the type. They 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:04.600 always have an excuse for why they want to remain 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.880 warm or safe in the cave while everyone else risks 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.760 their neck to bring home dinner. I mean, those guys 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.199 are the worst. But actually, hang on, So, if I 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.520 understand you correctly, you're saying we developed reason mostly as 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.440 a way to sniff out hucksters and kind of maintain 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.679 our social standing exactly, And the reason was more a 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.960 tool for winning arguments than it was a means for 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:27.919 pursuing truth, and that's actually what gets us into trouble today. 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.239 We still argue primarily to win a battle rather than 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.480 to learn something new or changing another person's mind. I mean, 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:36.520 if you just think about all arguments people get into 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.439 on Twitter or Facebook and in the comment section of 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.240 news sites, like, people might back up their viewpoints with 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.359 stats or links, but no one is interested in learning 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:48.760 from the other people there, and instead the conversation becomes 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.120 this competition with like each side trying to score off 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.719 the other, and all these fans of both sides just 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.280 rallying to cheer them on in the form of likes, 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.800 well and and that kind of interaction. It also shows 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.640 how backwards our cultures approaches to facts and evidence. I mean, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.240 we like to think we use facts and logic as 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.840 the basis for all of our beliefs, but in reality, 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.119 it's often the other way around, where the belief comes first, 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.320 and then we just pick and choose the facts and 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.240 evidence to really reinforce those beliefs, and then wield them 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.359 kind of like a sledgehammer, just to prove our points online. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.160 And you know, given how vast the Internet is now 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.240 and how lousy it is with misinformation that seems credible 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.680 at first glance. Finding that evidence for just about anything 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.600 you believe is pretty easy these days. Yeah, and these 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.919 really are the glory days of confirmation bias. But you know, 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.919 the cheapening of facts isn't the only danger posed by 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.880 arguing to win. Another more insidious threat is the way 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.000 this mode of argument affects the way we view the 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.159 questions we're debating. All right, so what do you what 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.800 do you mean by that? Well, when people engage in 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.199 combative arguments, the expectation is that someone will win and 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.520 someone will lose. And like we've been saying, that's the 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.800 whole point. But the implication there is that every issue 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.760 will always have this clear cut, objective answer, like with 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.399 a math problem or something, so there's no accounting for 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.439 different views that still might be valid, and instead every issue, 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.280 no matter how nuanced, is produced to these absolutes. And 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.320 actually I came across the Salon article by a research 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.600 team who studied the psychology of this argue to win mentality, 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.800 and they had a nice summary of what's at stake here, 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.440 so they right quote. The more we argue to win, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.760 the more we will feel that there is a single 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:36.440 objectively correct answer and that all other answers are mistaken. Conversely, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.120 the more we argue to learn, the more we will 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.119 feel that there's no single objective truth. Then different answers 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.840 can be equally right. So the next time you're deciding 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.399 how to enter into an argument on Facebook about the 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.640 controversial question of the day, remember you're not just making 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:52.399 a choice about how to interact with the person who 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.320 holds the opposing view. You're also making a decision that 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.120 will shape the way you and others think about whether 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.360 the question itself has a correct answer. And I think 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.400