1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Guess what, mango? What's that? Will all right, I've got 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,239 Speaker 1: a name for you. Have you ever heard of William Playfair? 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: I don't think so, but I do like that name. Playfair. Yeah, 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: it is a good name. That's all I had to 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: say about it. Just was a fun name. But actually 6 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: it's an interesting name because in this case, playing Fair 7 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: is not exactly what the world did for this guy. 8 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: So William was a Scottish man who pretty much invented 9 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: modern day infographics. You think about things like pie charts, 10 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: the bar graph, the line graph, all of those things. 11 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it's pretty crazy to think that we actually 12 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: know who invented the bar graph for the pineff. It's 13 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: like knowing who invented the parallelogram or something. Well, why 14 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: didn't the world treat him well? Well, because they were 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: so stubborn. You see, prior to William coming along, you 16 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: had intellectuals who felt that information should always be presented 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: in writing and that trying to present information as pictures 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: was just dumbing it down and maybe even useless. So, 19 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, just going back and and think about what 20 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: this guy's life was like. When when William was young, 21 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: he did a lot of work for his mathematician brother. 22 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: He'd help him record data, and over time he started 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: playing with this idea of putting data into a graphical format. 24 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: And William credits his brother with teaching him how to 25 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: do this, so he says of him, John taught me 26 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: to know that whatever can be expressed in numbers may 27 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: be represented in lines. And so you fast forward a 28 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: decade or so and he ends up apprenticing with James Watt, 29 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: And yes, it's that James Watt who's steam engine disastin 30 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: really changed the world. Yeah, and underwat supervision, William continued 31 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: to hone this craft of data representation, so he parts 32 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: ways with what floats around from odd job to odd job, 33 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: and finally, in the late seventeen hundreds, he publishes something 34 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: called the Commercial and Political Atlas, And what he does 35 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: in this is he basically has this giant collection of 36 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: bar and line charts that are illustrating pretty complex financial 37 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: information about European countries. So you think people would give 38 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: him some sort of credit for this, but it largely 39 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: gets ignored. So he follows it a few years later 40 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: with something called the Statistical Breviary, and he pretty much 41 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: introduces the world to the pie chart. And I'm like you, 42 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, how did somebody actually invent this? But he 43 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: is the one that came up with this. And again, 44 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: you think people would realize how helpful these devices could be, 45 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: but instead he was mocked. I mean even his old boss, 46 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: James Watt. Here's how he described me. He first of all, 47 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: he described the book as quote mere plummery and described 48 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: William as a rascal. Yeah, and so you know, others 49 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: dismissed his work and they said geometrical measurement has not 50 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: any relation to money or to time, which is just absurd. 51 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: But this is how people were responding to this. So 52 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, despite these contributions to the way we represent 53 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: all this complex data today, William Playfair was pretty much 54 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: ignored and died in poverty. That's sad. So why do 55 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: you think he was just like dismissed like that. Why 56 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: why couldn't they see how helpful these graphs and charts 57 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: could be. Well, because people are stubborn, and once a mind, 58 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: and especially a group's mind is made up, it's really 59 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: difficult to change that way of thinking. So it took 60 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: decades before people started to warm up to this idea 61 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: of you know, information being represented in these ways, and 62 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: now it's impossible to look at a magazine or a 63 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: newspaper article without seeing infographics all over them. And you know, 64 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: the story reminded us of just how difficult it can 65 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: be to change someone's mind. So today that's what we're 66 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: talking about, the science behind us, the science behind changing 67 00:03:36,120 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: people's minds. So let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners, 68 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as 69 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: always I'm joined by my good friend Manges Ticketer and 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: on the other side of the soundproof glass, the only 71 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: guy who still can't decide if he hears laurel or 72 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: Yung and Mango. I don't want to say Tristan's ever 73 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: done anything to annoy me, because he never has, but 74 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: this has been the closest to it. I mean, seriously, 75 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: he's probably listened to that clip a thousand times by now. 76 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: But that's our friend and producer, Tristan McNeil. I know, 77 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: I feel like the Internet moved on from this ages 78 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: ago now Tristan, it's time for you to do the same. 79 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: It definitely is. But we we've got a show to do. 80 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: And so while Tristan changes his mind over there probably 81 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: a dozen more times during this episode. Most of us 82 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: actually have the exact opposite problem. I mean, our minds 83 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: are made up about things and we won't change them 84 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: for anything or anyone. And this is something we've experience 85 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: all the time now, because, in case you haven't noticed, 86 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: we live in this increasingly polarized world. Whether it's an 87 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: unwillingness to compromise on political positions or even just these 88 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: silly debates about whether the newest Star Wars movie retroactively 89 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: ruined our childhoods, it seems like no one is willing 90 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: to give an inch on their opinions, and that's no 91 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: matter how many facts or reasoned arguments you throw at them. 92 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: So with all this discord in mind, we actually thought 93 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: it might be helpful to look into the science and 94 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: the psychology of how people change their minds, as well 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: as why we form such stubborn opinions in the first place. 96 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: That's right, and I actually thought we could start with 97 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: a bit of neuroscience, because as tough as it is 98 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: to change someone else's mind, it turns out that it's 99 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: just as hard to change your own, even about the 100 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: little things. And that's because even a simple last minute 101 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: decision like stepping left to avoid a puddle, that involves 102 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: a complex system of communication between several brain regions, and 103 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: that means that these split second decisions often come too 104 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: late for our bodies to act on. Okay, So then 105 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: in your example, someone decides to move left a second 106 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: too late, so they end up walking through the puddle anyway, right, 107 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: Except the time window is even shorter than that. So uh, 108 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: this team of researchers at Johns Hopkins, they recently concluded 109 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: that we have to change our minds within about a 110 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: hundred milliseconds and making a decision, and that's in order 111 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: for that new plan to be successful. So, as one 112 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: of the researchers put it, if we change our mind 113 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: about pressing the gas pedal even a few milliseconds after 114 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: the original go message has been sent to our muscles, 115 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: we simply can't stop. And this problem only worsens as 116 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: we age because our neural communication tends to get slower 117 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: and slower, which is one reason why it falls are 118 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 1: so common among the elderly, like their decisions to alter 119 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: course or even to cash themselves are simply made too 120 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: slowly to be carried out, And so does this time 121 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: limit apply strictly the decisions about physical movements like where 122 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: to walk or the pedal to press or or is 123 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: this also related to behavioral actions too, I mean, it 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: definitely applies to both. In fact, one aim of the 125 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: research I mentioned is to find ways to help people 126 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: with drug addictions make a faster decision, and this is 127 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: to ignore their pulses to use. So the idea is 128 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: that the sooner a person can change their mind about 129 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: a plan to use a drug, less likely they'll actually 130 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: be to act upon that plan. That's interesting, and I 131 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: guess it makes sense that time is such a big 132 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: factor in whether these last minute decisions are successful. I mean, 133 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: it's sort of how it goes with changing your mind 134 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: in general, right, Like, it seems like the longer the 135 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: person has held a certain opinion, the harder it is 136 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: for them to reverse that position. And that's, of course, 137 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: even if there's a lot of evidence that their view 138 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: may be wrong. Yeah, that sounds right to me, because 139 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: I mean, we do have facts and we have beliefs, 140 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: and ideally everyone would recognize and readily admit the difference 141 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: between those two things. But in practice, humans sent to 142 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: argue on behalf of a third category which are the 143 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: things we want to believe so badly that we treat 144 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: them as if they were facts even though they're not. 145 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: And that's where this confirmation bias comes in, and we 146 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: start to trust sources that just support our own viewpoints, 147 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: and that's over things that actually challenge our perceptions. Well, 148 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: and this is really something that we're all guilty of 149 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: and in some fashion, because as much as we like 150 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 1: to pretend that we're always rational and fair, the truth 151 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: is that each and every one of us has our 152 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: own biases. So and obviously it's just part of human nature. 153 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: There was actually this study about a decade ago that 154 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: found that as young as three months old, humans already 155 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 1: prefer the faces of those who share their skin color 156 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: to the faces of those who don't. And then by 157 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: the age of five, we're already conscious of the status 158 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: of our families and our friends circles, including how they're 159 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: viewed and treated in relation to other groups. So it 160 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: really isn't a question of whether or not people have biases. 161 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: It's more about the degree to which we let those 162 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: biases influence the way we view and interact with the world. 163 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: And studies have shown that if you can recognize your 164 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: bias on certain issues, you'll likely be more open to 165 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: changing your mind in light of any new evidence that 166 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: may be presented. That's really interesting. So well, what do 167 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: you think determine someone's willingness to change their minds? Then, well, 168 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: I think it comes down largely to what we're changing 169 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: our minds about, because if you think about it, we 170 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: change our minds based on new information all the time, 171 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: just in everyday life. I mean, you pick out something 172 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: to wear one day, you think it's going to be 173 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: a sunny day, you find that it's going to be raining, 174 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: so you change your mind and your clothes, and it's 175 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: no big deal. But you know, things aren't as easy 176 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: when it comes to something much heavier, like something people 177 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: consider deeply important or that may define them in some way. 178 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: So with issues like that, it's almost like no news 179 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: report or research study is going to change someone's mind 180 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, I mean, people's 181 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: misperceptions and false beliefs, they have less to do with 182 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: political affiliation or I don't know, maybe like a lack 183 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: of education, and much more to do with self identity, 184 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: and you know, with how they view themselves through the 185 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: lens of an issue that they care about. So I 186 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: think a great example of that is with evolution and 187 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: the Big Bang. Like a whole slew of studies have 188 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: shown that belief or disbelief in those theories typically aligns 189 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: with the person's religious and culturally. So if someone refuses 190 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: to change their mind about evolution, it doesn't mean they're 191 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with the science. It's more that they see evolution 192 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: as a threat to their ideology and, by extension, their identity, 193 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: so changing their mind doesn't seem like a legitimate option. Well, 194 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: of course, that makes it extremely tricky to change someone's 195 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: mind about an issue like this, because I mean, how 196 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: do you make a case for something like evolution to 197 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: folks without making them feel like they're even their core 198 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: beliefs are under attack. Yeah, I mean, tearing down someone's 199 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: self identity definitely isn't the way to win them over. 200 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: But I was reading about this biology professor. He's named 201 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: Kenneth Miller, and he's made headway by highlighting the compatibility 202 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: of science and religion. And this is compared to the alternate, 203 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: which is, you know, harping on their apparent differences. So 204 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: whenever he comes up against someone who's anti evolution. He 205 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: points out connections between science and religion as a way 206 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: of showing that both can co exist. For example, this 207 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: is something I hadn't even heard before, but the Belgian 208 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: scientist who laid out the math behind the Big Bang, 209 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: he was actually a Catholic priest. Oh really, I've never 210 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: heard that somehow, But I'm actually glad you're bringing up 211 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: people's beliefs about science, because, aside from politics, that's probably 212 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: the area where we push the hardest to change each 213 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: other's minds. And that's whether it's about evolution, or climate change, 214 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: or genetically modified foods or I mean, there are so 215 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: many of these topics. And that's why I was surprised 216 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: to learn that when it comes to policy issues, Americans 217 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: actually trust science leaders more than they do leaders in 218 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: other sectors, and of course that includes business and even government. 219 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 1: Well I'm not so sure about that, because, like the 220 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: last time I checked, there's still this chunk of the 221 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: population who sware the Earth is flat. Well, this is 222 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: according to a two thousand and sixteen study by the 223 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: National Science Foundation, and apparently more respondents said they have 224 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: quote a great deal of confidence in the knowledge and 225 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: impartiality of scientists than they do in any other institution. 226 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: That's with the exception of the military. That's really interesting. 227 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: But if if people trust scientists so much, like, why 228 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: are there so many flat earthers out there? Well, I 229 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: think in general is the key phrase here, because most 230 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: people likely do recognize that science is a pretty rigorous 231 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: field and you know, has this long history of trying 232 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: to deliver accurate results. But you know, I think the 233 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: problem really starts when specific issues bump up against those 234 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: ideological beliefs that we were talking about before. And actually, 235 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: here's a quote from Scientific American that that gives a 236 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: good example of this. And here's what it says. Our 237 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: innate desire to be accurate conflicts with other motives, some 238 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: of them unconscious. People hold beliefs to protect important values. 239 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: For example, individuals who think of nature as sacred may 240 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: perceive genetic modification as morally wrong, regardless of its safety 241 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: or utility. People also whole beliefs that are rooted in 242 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: their emotions. A flu pandemic that can cause widespread death 243 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: among the innocent may cause feelings of fear and helplessness. 244 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: The one way to cope with those emotions is to 245 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: belittle warnings of a pandemic as impossible, which makes sense, 246 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: but it's also kind of scary to think about because 247 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: it shows just how bad we are at judging whether 248 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: our views are rational or irrational. Like, even if our 249 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: views are only based on bias or emotion, we can 250 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: still find ways to dupe ourselves into thinking those beliefs 251 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: are truly based on facts or reason. I mean, if 252 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: you think about global warming, one or two descending scientists 253 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: is all it really took to perpetuate the idea that 254 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: climate science is controversial or still a matter of debate 255 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: in the scientific community, and that kernel of doubt was 256 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: enough to validate the belief that it's all a hoax 257 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: and some other people's minds, even if they consider themselves 258 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: science supporters in general, Yeah, you're right, And it's it's 259 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: also kind of ironic when you think about it, because 260 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: scientists are probably the most adept when it comes to 261 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: changing their beliefs in light of new information that they 262 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: may have, and I mean revising theories to match the 263 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: current evidence. Is it's kind of their whole m o. 264 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: So it's it's it's pretty sad when you have issues 265 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: where there's near consensus among the scientific community, and yet 266 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: they're still so easily dismissed by some people. Yeah, and 267 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: to play devil's advocate, I do think some people just 268 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: aren't aware of what scientists actually think about certain issues. 269 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: Like a few years back, the Pew Research Center released 270 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: this report where thirty seven percent of respondents said that 271 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: they didn't think scientists agreed on climate change, while in 272 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: reality of scientists say climate change is a serious problem. 273 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: So in this case, the misinformation campaigned about how quote 274 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: unsettled the issue is really seems to have worked, like 275 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: people were convinced that the science was still uncertain and 276 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: they didn't take the time to double check that claim themselves. Well, see, 277 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: and to me that that says that although climate change 278 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: is a scientific issue at its core, it's really become 279 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: more of an ideological one for most of us. I mean, 280 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: nowadays our belief for disbelief in global warming is really 281 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: an expression of identity more than anything else, and it's 282 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: a way of showing which groups we belong to. Alright, Well, 283 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: I I do sense that we're heading into the realm 284 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: of politics here. So before we open that particularly kind 285 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: of worms, why don't we take a quick break. You're 286 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: listening to part time genius and we're talking about the 287 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: messy science of how to change another person's mind. Okay, Well, 288 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: so we mentioned how people tend to dig in their 289 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: heels on issues they connect to their own identities, and 290 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: as a result, they'll do any sort of mental gymnastics 291 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: necessary to avoid changing their minds on the subject. But 292 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense with moral or religious considerations. 293 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: But you said global warming is a matter of identity 294 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: now too, So how does that work exactly? All right? Well, 295 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: think about how so much of human identity is tied 296 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: up with the groups that we form, whether that's family 297 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: or friends, or you know, colleagues or even political parties. 298 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: So the downside of having your individual identity wrapped up 299 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: in groups is is that we do run that risk 300 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: of giving into tribalism, you know, when those beliefs or 301 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: values of those groups are under question. And actually, this 302 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: is the same thing you'll see even with something as 303 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: extreme as like cults, because that sense of belonging becomes 304 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: so important that members will will actually ignore any information 305 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: that threatens that feeling. And in the same way, you know, 306 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: we don't want to lose membership, and the groups that 307 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: are important to us. And so today, you know, you 308 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: think about how important political parties are to a lot 309 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: of people, and it's a stronger part of our identity 310 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: than ever before. And for example, recent polls show that 311 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: not only do die hard liberals and conservatives try to 312 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: avoid spending time together whenever possible, they even feel unhappy 313 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: if a family member is married to somebody else from 314 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: across the aisle. So what you're saying is that the 315 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: issue of climate change isn't strictly a scientific one anymore. 316 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: It's become so politicized that it's basically a way to 317 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: signal which political and social groups you belong to. Yeah, 318 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: it is, and you know, and people aren't likely to 319 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: change their minds on something like that, and that's no 320 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: matter what the science says, because you know, on some level, 321 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: they don't want to jeopardize their standing with their group. 322 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: And it's actually pretty fascinating how much group mentalities factor 323 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: into all of our decision making. Well, that connection actually 324 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: goes even deeper, because some scientists now believe that humans 325 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: developed reason in the first place as this way to 326 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: deal with the problems associated with living in groups, which 327 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: is really interesting because we always assume that humans of all, 328 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: reason is a way to solve these abstract puzzles or 329 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: to like draw conclusions from evidence. But according to this 330 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: pair of cognitive scientists named Hugo Mercy and Dance Berber, 331 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: reason is really an adaptation to the hypersocial niche humans 332 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: have evolved for themselves, all right, So just to try 333 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: to break that down, I mean, what what what kind 334 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: of hyper social problems was reason actually meant to help 335 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: with the main one is making sure you don't get 336 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: taken advantage of by members of the group. So this 337 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: makes sense if you think about it, because humans first 338 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: lived together in small groups of hunter gatherers, where social 339 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: standing was everything and each member of the group needed 340 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: to pull their own weight. But inevitably you'd have some 341 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: lazy people in the group, you know, the type. They 342 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: always have an excuse for why they want to remain 343 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: warm or safe in the cave while everyone else risks 344 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: their neck to bring home dinner. I mean, those guys 345 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: are the worst. But actually, hang on, So, if I 346 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: understand you correctly, you're saying we developed reason mostly as 347 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: a way to sniff out hucksters and kind of maintain 348 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: our social standing exactly, And the reason was more a 349 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: tool for winning arguments than it was a means for 350 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: pursuing truth, and that's actually what gets us into trouble today. 351 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 1: We still argue primarily to win a battle rather than 352 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: to learn something new or changing another person's mind. I mean, 353 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: if you just think about all arguments people get into 354 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: on Twitter or Facebook and in the comment section of 355 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: news sites, like, people might back up their viewpoints with 356 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: stats or links, but no one is interested in learning 357 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: from the other people there, and instead the conversation becomes 358 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: this competition with like each side trying to score off 359 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 1: the other, and all these fans of both sides just 360 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: rallying to cheer them on in the form of likes, 361 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: well and and that kind of interaction. It also shows 362 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: how backwards our cultures approaches to facts and evidence. I mean, 363 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: we like to think we use facts and logic as 364 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: the basis for all of our beliefs, but in reality, 365 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: it's often the other way around, where the belief comes first, 366 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: and then we just pick and choose the facts and 367 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: evidence to really reinforce those beliefs, and then wield them 368 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: kind of like a sledgehammer, just to prove our points online. 369 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: And you know, given how vast the Internet is now 370 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: and how lousy it is with misinformation that seems credible 371 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: at first glance. Finding that evidence for just about anything 372 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: you believe is pretty easy these days. Yeah, and these 373 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: really are the glory days of confirmation bias. But you know, 374 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: the cheapening of facts isn't the only danger posed by 375 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: arguing to win. Another more insidious threat is the way 376 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: this mode of argument affects the way we view the 377 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: questions we're debating. All right, so what do you what 378 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: do you mean by that? Well, when people engage in 379 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: combative arguments, the expectation is that someone will win and 380 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: someone will lose. And like we've been saying, that's the 381 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: whole point. But the implication there is that every issue 382 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: will always have this clear cut, objective answer, like with 383 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: a math problem or something, so there's no accounting for 384 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: different views that still might be valid, and instead every issue, 385 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: no matter how nuanced, is produced to these absolutes. And 386 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: actually I came across the Salon article by a research 387 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: team who studied the psychology of this argue to win mentality, 388 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: and they had a nice summary of what's at stake here, 389 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: so they right quote. The more we argue to win, 390 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: the more we will feel that there is a single 391 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: objectively correct answer and that all other answers are mistaken. Conversely, 392 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: the more we argue to learn, the more we will 393 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: feel that there's no single objective truth. Then different answers 394 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: can be equally right. So the next time you're deciding 395 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: how to enter into an argument on Facebook about the 396 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: controversial question of the day, remember you're not just making 397 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: a choice about how to interact with the person who 398 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: holds the opposing view. You're also making a decision that 399 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: will shape the way you and others think about whether 400 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: the question itself has a correct answer. And I think 401 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: that's pretty good advice, But you know, for my own 402 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: peace of mind, I feel like I should point out 403 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: here that there are times when facts and evidence can 404 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: help change somebody's mind. And that's because there are plenty 405 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: of people out there who maybe they're misinformed or mistaken 406 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: about something, but but who don't cling to that false 407 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: belief and treat it like a cornerstone of their identity. 408 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: So in these cases, facts and reason can truly make 409 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: a difference. So for our listeners out there, don't give 410 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: up all hope on this kind of thing. I mean, 411 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: that's a good point, but what about all those other times, 412 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: like are really saying there's no way to change a 413 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: person's mind once they're personally invested in a certain view. Well, 414 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm not ready to concede that just yet, because, as 415 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: it turns out, humanities hyper social nature that you've talked about, 416 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: it might just be the key to changing a person's 417 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: long held beliefs. But before we get into that, let's 418 00:21:48,119 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: take a quick break. All right. So this whole episode, 419 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: we've been talking about how difficult it is to change 420 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: people's minds on these deeply personal or emotionally charged issues. 421 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: And you know why, we mentioned how simply laying out 422 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: the facts doesn't work in these cases. There is new 423 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,959 Speaker 1: research out of Penn State that suggests that doing so 424 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: can be effective so long as you deliver the facts 425 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: along with a heaping dose of peer pressure. So that's 426 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: when it's come to like using peer pressure to get 427 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: people to change their minds, which seems kind of shady 428 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, it feels like we're going back to 429 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: high school for this one. But but at least listen 430 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: to how the study went. It was It was pretty interesting. First, 431 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: the researchers gathered fifty eight volunteers from around the campus 432 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: and had them offer their opinions on the firing of 433 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: coach Joe Paterno. Of course, all remember that case, and 434 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, he was the head of the football program 435 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: for years and then one of his long time assistance 436 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: I was accused of these you know, sexual abuses, and 437 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, the thinking was that Paterno likely had knowledge 438 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: of the incidents and unfortunately kept quiet. So the college 439 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: covered its bass and decided to fire Paterno as well. Yeah, 440 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: I remember it was seen as a pretty controversial move 441 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: at the time, especially on campus. That's right. So what 442 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: they did in this study was that, you know, the 443 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: researchers pulled the participants on their opinions, and then they 444 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: split them up, and the first thirty four people took 445 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: part in these separate discussion sessions they called them, and 446 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: they were paired with two to four research assistants who 447 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: always took the opposing view of the volunteer. And before 448 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: these discussions commenced, everyone had been given this fact sheet 449 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: and a summary of the different arguments in Paterno's case. 450 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: Then things got underway and they'd go back and forth 451 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: about the case for something like thirty minutes, and these 452 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: research assistants would offer counter argument after counter argument. No 453 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: matter what the volunteer would say, they would always counter it. 454 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: And so after that, the participants each filled out a 455 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: ballot with their final opinion on Paternos firing, and the 456 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: researchers could then use that to track whose opinion had 457 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: shifted due to the discussion. Which is interesting, But what 458 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: happened to those other twenties something participants. Well, they also 459 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: read the same fact sheet and those case summaries, but 460 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: they didn't have those discussion sessions like the other group did. Instead, 461 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: they simply filled out the ballot with their final opinion. 462 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: Now for that second group, the ones who had only 463 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: read the materials, only eight percent of these people changed 464 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: their minds about Paternals firing based on what they had read. 465 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: But the people who took part in the discussions where 466 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: they were outnumbered, a shocking thirty eight percent of those 467 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: shifted their stance in response to that social pressure. I mean, 468 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: that's pretty wild. But who's to say the people who 469 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: changed their minds won't just change the back a few 470 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: months later. In fact, how do we even know they 471 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: really changed their minds in the first place, like they 472 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: could have been lying just to please the researchers. Right, Well, 473 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: those final ballots were anonymous, so I guess you could say, 474 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: in theory, the participants wouldn't have felt the need to lie. 475 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: But there's actually a similar study that dealt with his 476 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: concern more directly, and it was this experiment out of 477 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: Harvard back in two thousand eleven, and it basically found 478 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: that men judge a woman is more attractive when they 479 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: believe their peers also fine tore attractive. And so they 480 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: reached this conclusion by having fourteen men rate the attractiveness 481 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: of a hundred and eighty female faces on a scale 482 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: from one to ten. Then half an hour later, the 483 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: same men rated the faces again, but this time every 484 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: face that they looked at was paired with a numerical rating. Now, 485 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: these ratings displayed were completely random, but the participants were 486 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: told that these were the averages of the scores given 487 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: by their peers. And would you know at this bit 488 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: of suggested peer pressure actually worked, So all of the 489 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: men ended up rating the women that had higher rankings 490 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: as more attractive than they had the first time around. Okay, 491 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: so to tell me, how is that any more definitive 492 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: than the last study, Like they could have still been 493 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: lying just to seem like they had as good an 494 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 1: eye for beauty as the other guys or something. Well, 495 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: here's what's maybe the most interesting part of this. So 496 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: those participants underwent m r I scans that effectively proved 497 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: the men weren't lying. So the brain's pleasure centers lit 498 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: up more strongly during that second round of rankings, which 499 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: suggests that their opinions of the women's attractiveness actually did change. 500 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: That's fascinating, But you know, I still feel a little 501 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: conflicted about weaponizing peer pressure as a means of winning 502 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: people to your side. But there might be something to 503 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: the idea that people are more open minded in group 504 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: settings or during personal interactions. Like I remember reading how 505 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: back during World War Two, the US government tried to 506 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: sell the public on the idea of eating organ meat 507 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: because the thinking was that the choice or cuts of 508 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: meat could then be saved to feed the troops. So 509 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: they did research to find out the most effective ways 510 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: to get people to make the switch, and it turned 511 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: out that people who had a group discussion about the idea, 512 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: they were actually five times more likely to go along 513 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: with it than those who simply read about the merits 514 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: of organ meat from a nutritionist. Yeah, it's a pretty 515 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: significant difference. I mean, it's gross, but but it is interesting. 516 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: But to be honest, I'm not sure how far peer 517 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: pressure or personal interactions would get you when it comes 518 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: to changing minds on like stuff that really matters. I mean, 519 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: you're thinking in these scenarios, it's whether some person is 520 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: attractive or whether to cook up some organ meat for dinner. 521 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: But I think on heavier issues it feels like it'd 522 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: be a little bit different. Yeah, I know what you mean, 523 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: But I think the key might actually be to something 524 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: we talked about in the last segment, this idea that 525 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: people most readily accept facts that confirmed the beliefs they 526 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: already hold. Alright, so how are you seeing that as 527 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: a positive thing though? So one example of what I'm 528 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: thinking about is the legality of gay marriage, and that's 529 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: been the reality for years now, but the fight to 530 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: get it to that point was incredibly long and challenging 531 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: because in order to win the right to get married, 532 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: gay people needed to get straight voters and politicians on 533 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: their sides, and of course, historically speaking that's easier said 534 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: than done. In fact, all through the early two thousands, 535 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: same sex marriage activists lost one political battle after another 536 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: and things really weren't looking rate and a big reason 537 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: for this lack of success came down to messaging. Like 538 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: the common arguments from activists at the time centered on 539 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: the injustice of discrimination and how gay people should be 540 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: entitled to the same rights and benefits as you know, 541 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: straight people. But these kinds of legal and moral appeals 542 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: pretty much fell on deaf ears and it quickly became 543 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: apparent that the movement would need a new message, one 544 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: that was less political and more universal. So what sort 545 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: of strategy did they come up with? Well, there was 546 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: one advocate group, in particular, Freedom to Marry, that really 547 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: led the charge by analyzing data from hundreds of polls 548 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: and focus groups. Then, after a year of pouring over 549 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: this information, the team finally found the answers they were 550 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: looking for in a single public opinion poll. So, according 551 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: to the poll, when straight people were asked why they 552 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: had gotten married, they said it was for a quote, 553 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: love and commitment. But when these people were asked why 554 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: they think gay people wanted to get married, the number 555 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: one reason was for benefits. I mean, on the one hand, 556 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: it's obviously a pretty ugly assumption to make about complete 557 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: strangers that they're driven more by these selfish economic concerns 558 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: than by the same wholesome motives that that you might possess. 559 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: But I mean, it does sound like what you're saying 560 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: is the movement was able to somehow use this thinking 561 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: to their advantage anyway, that's right. So, in light of 562 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: this discovery of the team at Freedom to Marry quickly 563 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: launched this new nationwide campaign. It was called Why Marriage Matters, 564 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: and rather than selling the idea on political or economic rounds, 565 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: the campaign just focused on this universal idea that most 566 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: people already believed in, which is that love and commitment matter. 567 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: And little by little, this new message began to change 568 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: people's minds. Some of the work was done remotely through 569 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 1: TV or radio ads. There were even robocalls employed and 570 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: media appearances, but the most effective method by far was 571 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: these door to door visits from actual gain lesbian couples 572 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: who hoped one day to get married, and when faced 573 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: with real people expressing that same earnest desire they had, 574 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: voters finally began to see themselves in the issue as 575 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: well as the humanity of those that affected. And in time, 576 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: those changed minds translated to votes in local elections and 577 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 1: the state house victories helped build momentum for the eventual 578 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruling, and that's the one that made gay 579 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: marriage legal. I mean, it is pretty remarkable, how you know, 580 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: reframing this argument can make all the difference. And I 581 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: see what you mean now about people using confirmation bias 582 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: to their advantage. But you know, you think about it. 583 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: Winning this campaign you describe essentially used reason and facts 584 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: to confirm the core beliefs that these voters already held, 585 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: and that was instead of trying to change those beliefs. 586 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: It's it's pretty clever as a tactic, and it actually 587 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: reminds me of what we talked about earlier with that 588 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: biology professor who tries to build those bridges between religion 589 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: and science. I mean, if we can manage to strip 590 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: away the political and the social hang ups around an issue, 591 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: we might find that we have more common ground than 592 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: we originally thought. I mean, that's the hope. And the 593 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: other thing to remember is that personal identity isn't static. 594 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: All of us change and grow as we go through life, 595 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: and as we accume life experiences, those inevitably altered the 596 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: people we are, and as our self identity shifts, there's 597 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: always the chance our beliefs and opinions will too, even 598 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 1: the more deep seated ones that used to define us. Well, 599 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: that's a great point. And actually I read this article 600 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: by a writer named Jennifer Hulette, and she wrote about 601 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: the potential of that kind of personal growth, and she 602 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: has some pretty good advice on managing our mind changing 603 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: expectations too, so I'll just go ahead and read it. 604 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: So she writes, of course, you can't precisely control how 605 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: people respond and evolve over time. It's a complex system, 606 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: and your input is just one variable among many working 607 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: to shape said system. All you can do is sow 608 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: the seeds and hope some fine fallow ground. And since 609 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: most of us can't see into a person's innermost thoughts, 610 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: there's no way of knowing where that fallow ground may lie. 611 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: Those seeds might not flourish for months or years. You 612 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: might not see any outward change at all for a 613 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: good long while. That doesn't mean your efforts are useless. 614 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: People can change their minds and progress be made on 615 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: a broad social scale don't despair just yet. Yeah, that 616 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: is good advice, right, And you know, because I'm not 617 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: sure we can top it, what do you say we 618 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: leave it at that and just start the fact off? Well, 619 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: I did have three or four points I wanted to make, 620 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: but I sort of feel like you already made up 621 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: your mind on this, so I can already hear the 622 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: factor off using, so we might as well start. So, yeah, 623 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: I told you peer pressure work. Okay, So I'm gonna 624 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: start us off on a slightly different note and talk 625 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: about not just changing our minds, but changing our brains. So, 626 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: first of all, do you meditate? You know, I've always 627 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: said I was going to start meditating, and I just 628 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: haven't gotten around to it. So I think I'll start 629 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: next week. I know I talked about it all the 630 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: time too, but I was reading a couple of articles 631 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: about the power of meditation, and specifically the serious compassion 632 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: meditation that to bed and monks do and nor scientists 633 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: have been studying them for years and have been prized 634 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: by just how dramatic and effect this kind of meditation 635 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: can have on their brains, and the studies have shown 636 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: that monks experienced these huge increases in gamma wave activity 637 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: at level they've never seen in other studies, And when 638 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: their brains were scanned, they found that the region most 639 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: affected during meditation was the left prefrontal cortex, which is 640 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: where a positive emotion comes from, and then it was 641 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: much much more active than the right prefrontal which is 642 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: actually where more negative emotions like anxiety come from. So 643 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: I think it's time for us to sign up for 644 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: the meditation class. All right, let's do it. But but 645 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: next week we we've got things to work on first. 646 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: So but before we start meditating, I'm going to bring 647 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: us back to changing people's minds, and this one in 648 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: particular is about food. So have you ever heard people 649 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: say that seafood and cheese should never be paired? Yeah? Definitely. 650 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: Well there's this great Las Obscure article and it's looking 651 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: at this topic and trying to find the origins of this. 652 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: And the article starts off I talk about how even 653 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: on things like the show Top Chef, you'll hear experts 654 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: say all the time things like, you know, even though 655 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: I don't like cheese and seafood together, this wasn't that bad. 656 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: And it's like that's the ultimate compliment you can give 657 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: that sort of pairing, which is just strange. And it 658 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: turns out we have Italy to blame for this thinking. 659 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: And it's actually kind of amazing how global events and 660 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: national identities can play into something like this. So it 661 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: had been the thinking among certain groups and Italy that 662 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: these two food types should not be served together. And 663 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: coming out of World War Two, you had a nation 664 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: in Italy that was feeling the threat of globalization. They 665 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: need to really cling to those national traditions and it's 666 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: natural that you'd find certain things to dig in on. 667 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: And food is obviously one of Italy's greatest exports because 668 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: it feels like everybody loves Italian food, and this was 669 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: the thing that they really stuck to and convinced much 670 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: of American culture, especially that seafood and cheese should not 671 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: be paired. So I've got a food related one as well. 672 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: It's emasy to read about the high ends companies attempts 673 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: to get Ketchup to catch on in Australia, like the 674 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: company had been successful and Sony plays around the world, 675 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: but in Australia American style, Ketchup only represents about three 676 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: to four percent of the tomato sauce market. In fact, 677 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: Hines even introduced this cookbook in the market there a 678 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: couple of decades ago, just to try to get the 679 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: public to understand how different ketchup is from like these 680 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: other tomato sauces. But I think what I found most 681 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: interesting is just how passionately some Australians are about this 682 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: topic and how they almost see it as an invasion 683 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: of their culture. And here are just a couple of quotes. 684 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: A famous Australian entrepreneur named Dick Smith, whose company makes 685 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: a competitive ketchup, said quote, they don't give us stuff 686 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: about Australian culture or a way of life. They basically said, 687 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: if we have one common label and call it ketchup 688 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: around the world, that's the best way we can make money. 689 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: And Scott cam who's a TV personality there, expressed concern 690 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: that the word ketchup might be replacing tomato sauce. So 691 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,479 Speaker 1: here's what he said, what are we going to start 692 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: walking down the sidewalk instead of a footpath? As Australian say, 693 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: they're infiltrated to us. It's not our way of life. 694 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: So it turns out the passionate response was pretty effective 695 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: because just a few years ago Hines actually closed their 696 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: Australian catchup factory, and this is seventy years after opening it. 697 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: They finally just gave up and moved it to New Zealand. 698 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: That is impressive. I'm also going to start using the 699 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: phrase don't give us stuff about something. I kind of 700 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: like that alright. Well, in a different direction. During their 701 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: twenty three years working for Columbia Pictures, the three Stooges 702 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: never once got a raise. In fact, they were severely underpaid. 703 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: Apparently the head of the studio convinced them that they 704 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: weren't very popular. I don't know how he managed to 705 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: pull this off, and he almost made it seem like 706 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: he was doing them a favor just to renew their 707 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: contracts at the very last moment for the same price 708 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: each year, which is obviously a horrible to do, but 709 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: kind of remarkable that he pulled this off for twenty 710 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: three years in a row. Wow. So this gentleman named 711 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: Matthias Blow from Chicago actually convinced his wife to have 712 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: her teeth pull because of our dental issues. And then 713 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: he decided, without really asking her, not to get her dentures. 714 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: He just thought it was cheaper for them to serve 715 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 1: her soup every day rather than any food she could choose. 716 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: I guess he was trying to save money or something. 717 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 1: I don't get it. So she smartly took him to court, 718 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: where the judge called it quote the meanest trick he'd 719 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: ever heard, and he promptly ordered Mr Bloud to buy 720 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: her two sets of teeth and a beefsteak every week. 721 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: All right, well, I feel like we should try to 722 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,240 Speaker 1: end on a happier note. So in the nineteen fifties, 723 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 1: fans used to go up to George Reeves, who played 724 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: Superman at the time, and try to test his strength, 725 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: and in fact, one time a young fan actually pulled 726 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: a gun on him, but the quick thinking Reeves convinced 727 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: the guy to hand it over to him on account 728 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: that if he shot at Superman, the bullet would bounce 729 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: off and likely hit and then a sent bystander. That's 730 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,919 Speaker 1: really interesting, And uh, I do like in a week 731 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: that Batman and Catwoman are all the attention for getting married. 732 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: You decided to end on a Superman fact, so I 733 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: think you should get the prize this week. I'm gonna 734 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: act like that was intentional, but I'll take it either way. 735 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure we've forgotten some great facts about the science 736 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: behind changing someone's mind, or even just fun stories about 737 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: the efforts to change people's mind. So we always love 738 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: hearing those stories and those facts from you. I have 739 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: to say, Mango, I was a little bit jealous hearing 740 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: from a listener earlier this week that she was trying 741 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: to convince a family member to name their child Mango, 742 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: which just seemed crazy to me. But anyway, I think 743 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: Will is a pretty good name too. But congratulations to 744 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: you on that, and we'd love to hear from you. Guys. 745 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: You can always email us part Time Genius at how 746 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,360 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com or hit us up on Facebook 747 00:38:45,440 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: or Twitter. But thanks so much for listening. Thanks again 748 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of How 749 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Works and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people 750 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: who do the important things we couldn't even begin to understand. 751 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: CHRISTA McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the 752 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 1: theme song and does the mixy MIXI sound thing. Jerry 753 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: Rowland does the exact producer thing. Gay blues Yer is 754 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: our lead researcher, with support from the Research Army, including 755 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff 756 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: Cook gets the show to your ears. Good job, Eves. 757 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, 758 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: And if you really really like what you've heard, maybe 759 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: you could leave a good review for us. Do we 760 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 1: do we forget Jason? Jason who