1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: Friends Media, December twenty seventh, nineteen seventy five. Sometimes I 3 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: know I go places in the diary that take my 4 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: breath away, as if there were someone else living inside me, 5 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: with her own determined will to see and speak clearly. 6 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: Because I don't write to protect myself or to say 7 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: things I don't dare say to others. I don't cater 8 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: to any pampered image of myself as a too sensitive 9 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: soul for whom the world is too much. In the 10 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: Diary her only friend, neither too fragile nor too sensitive. 11 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: I have many true friends, and the portrayals I have 12 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: known I have asked for. I don't write to hide 13 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: from the world. Today's episode Diary dialogues I'm Katie and 14 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: I'm Eves. Kathleen Collins was a writer, filmmaker, and activist. 15 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: She's known for works like the nineteen eighty two film 16 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: Losing Ground, as well as the plays In the Midnight 17 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: Hour and The Brothers. Sadly, Kathleen died from breast cancer 18 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight at the tender age of forty six, 19 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: before most of her work could be published, so Kathleen's daughter, 20 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: Nina Collins, took to the task of diligently gathering her 21 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: mom's work and releasing it. 22 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, Echo Press posthumously published a collection of 23 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: Kathleen's stories called Whatever Happened to Interracial Love, and in 24 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, Notes from a Black Woman's Diary was published. 25 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: It features a selection of her fiction, letters and diary entries, 26 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: including the diary entry that you heard at the beginning 27 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: of this episode. 28 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Now, it was a diary entry, but it was also 29 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: a kind of commentary. She's actually reflecting on some of 30 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: her older diary entries, pausing to think about why she 31 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: wrote and what the diary meant to her. In my opinion, 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: this is a brave act. The other day, I was 33 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: just thinking about going back to look at some of 34 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: my old journals, and I was already starting the sweat. Girl. 35 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: You know, I've thrown away and ripped up all my 36 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 2: old journals and I regret it. Yeah, like especially the 37 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 2: ones I've had when I was really young. But they're 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: just so embarrassing, and I'm like, I want to make 39 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: sure no one ever sees these, including myself. 40 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how I feel about looking at my own 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: and not even once I were that old. How old 42 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:44,119 Speaker 1: were the ones that you were? 43 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: It was that you ripped up the last ones I 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: think I ripped up. I was truly like in like 45 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 2: middle school or something, which now I'm like, oh, it 46 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: would be like funny to like go back and look 47 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: at them. I have someones from like twenty sixteen, twenty 48 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: seventeen era. I haven't ripped those up, but baby, I will, 49 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: I will. 50 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: I haven't learned you just said. 51 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: She did it. No, because like the closer I am 52 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: to that age, I'm like, nah, that's embarrassing, Like you know, 53 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: I can't have it nobody looking at me late that. Yeah, 54 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: and I have some diary entries from you know, this 55 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: year that I will likely you rip up later on. 56 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know I got something from last year. 57 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: Girl. 58 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: It's a lot of them in there that I don't 59 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: want to see, and I just couldn't imagine publishing them 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: of my own volition. Yeah. 61 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: And then even the fact that she's like commenting on 62 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: herself that makes me like, I don't know if I would. 63 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't be able to do that. I don't 64 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: think I would. I mean, when I go back when 65 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: I was wanting to go back and look at my 66 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: old journal entries, it was for practical reasons. I was like, oh, 67 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: I know, I put some story ideas in there somewhere. 68 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: I had some notes that I took about yoga or 69 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: something like that. But I knew I was gonna come 70 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: across other stuff while I was in there. I was like, 71 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to sift through all that to find 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: what I need. 73 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, even not even like diaries, but the pictures you 74 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: take and then your phone like makes a little video 75 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: of like the status fucking day. 76 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: Of coming up. 77 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: You know what it is? Yeah, yes, same energy, same energy, 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: but almost a little worse because AI is doing that 79 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: to you, and you're doing it to yourself when you're 80 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: going back to the journals, putting yourself through that mess. 81 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: But I'm on the same page as you. So there 82 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: aren't many diary entries in Notes from a Black Woman's Diary, 83 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: but you get the best of both worlds. You get 84 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: some of the original entries, and you get this meta 85 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: narrative where the author gets to analyze her past self 86 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: with more context and insight. Kathleen's entries give us a 87 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: peek at contemporary published diaries, but they're a tiny sliver 88 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: of a long history of black women writing their innermost 89 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings on paper that includes their history of 90 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 1: slave narratives, letters, and autobiographies. And through all of these 91 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: published and unpublished diaries, we get to learn more about 92 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: historical eras and culture, about the biographies of our ancestors, 93 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: and about the day to day experiences of communities. Plus 94 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: we get a sneak peek into the private, interior worlds 95 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: of everyday people, unmarred by the specter of surveillance. And 96 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: to be honest, it feels a little voyeuristic, but we're 97 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: lucky to have the diaries that we do. So let's 98 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: grab our tiny keys and crack open the padlocks on 99 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: a few diaries. First up, Francis and Rowlin Whipper. Francis 100 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: was born in Charleston, South Carolina, in eighteen forty five, 101 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: and she was the oldest of five girls. Her father 102 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: dealt in lumber. Not much is known about her mother, 103 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: but the family had a fair amount of social and 104 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: political status in black circles in the city, and they 105 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: were considered free people of color. Frances was well educated 106 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: and she and her sisters were proponents of women's rights 107 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: and suffrage. Was a teacher, and she was a writer, 108 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: and she was so good at her jobs that abolitionist 109 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: and politician Martin Delaney commissioned her to write his official biography. 110 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: That made her the author of the first biography of 111 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: a freeborn Black American man. 112 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: As an avid writer, Francis also kept a diary in 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: eighteen sixty eight that still exists today. It's one of 114 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: the oldest by a black woman from the South, and 115 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: it's housed in the Smithsonian National Museum of African American 116 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: History and Culture. But I just called that the Blacksonian Trial. 117 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: In her diary, she writes about what she's reading, Dante, Shakespeare, 118 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: Thomas Carlisle. She talks about writing her book, finishing it, 119 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: and about its publishers and the pay for it. There's 120 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: a little name dropping here and there on lectures and 121 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: readings that she attended, like Charles Dickens and Ralph Waldo Emerson. 122 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: In this diary entry, she talks about famous abolitionists and 123 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: journalist William Lloyd Garrison, who founded the anti slavery newspaper 124 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: The Liberator. Wednesday, February twelfth, eighteen sixty eight, mister William 125 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: Lloyd Garrison spent the morning with me. 126 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: I thank him a grand, noble soul, a singularly perfect 127 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: development of God's highest humanity, a great intellect consecrated to 128 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: one idea. I felt a reverence while in the presence 129 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: of this great man who came to the rescue of 130 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: a gaped and helpless people. God marked him out from 131 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: the number to his truths. But is he a humanitarian? 132 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: How can his practiced pen and ready heart remain uninterested 133 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: while the same wrong exists under another form. God knoweth 134 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: his purposes and the instruments best adapted. She mentions the 135 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: anti slavery meetings that she goes to, and we learn 136 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: a little bit about how anti black violence is showing 137 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: up in current events that affect her. Sunday, August second, Columbia, 138 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: South Carolina, reached Columbia about six o'clock. Mister Hipper met 139 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: me at the depot with his buggy and took me 140 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: to my boarding place, where an elegant and spacious room 141 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: awaited me. Breakfast was tempting. My dear friend mister Adams 142 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: was in to see me. Very soon after my arrival. 143 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: Charlotte came to see me in the morning but Kate 144 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: did not went to church in the morning with Harry 145 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: Maxwell and mister Adams, the governor, and all the members 146 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: were there. Quite an excitement created on account of the 147 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: disappearance of Joe Howard after the visit of the Ku 148 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: klups Klan at night, and we get some insight into 149 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: some of our socio political opinions. Saturday, February twenty second, 150 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: Washington's birthday. But if things continue as they are, there 151 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: will be but little country left to celebrate it. For myself, 152 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: I am no enthusiast over patriotic celebrations, as I am 153 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: counted out of the way politic. I wrote very satisfactory today. 154 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: Matthews brought me the Commonwealth and other papers. There was 155 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: a grand description of Reverend to Bartell, Charles Elliot Norton 156 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: and O. Bronson Alcott appear of the finest spiritual essence. 157 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: I heard him at the Anti Slavery meeting. Also GB Fothenham. 158 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: But she gets into some Monday moments too. She talks 159 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: about her travels and snowstorms and all the folks she 160 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: knew who were getting married while she was alone, and 161 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: she talked about her later relationship with lawyer and legislator 162 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: William James Whipper. Thursday August twentieth woke early wondering whether 163 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: to throw up the sponge or accept a loveless life 164 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: or not, felt as though w could not love anyone. 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: A letter came from him today which restored me, A 166 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: real love letter. What does throw up the sponge mean? 167 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I get the gist, but I was like, 168 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: I've never heard that idiom before. 169 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 2: Maybe like, oh, I'm just an old maid cleaning my house. 170 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: I'm throwing up the spode. 171 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: Actually that makes sense, that's probably it. 172 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: I mean, there were a lot of domestic workers at 173 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: the time. That was a lot of black women's jobs. 174 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: I was also thinking it meant something about like birth control. 175 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 2: I feel like it wasn't there some type of sponge? 176 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? Or is I don't know. Yeah, I think that 177 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: was a method of birth control back then. Yeah. Still, 178 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: those are two guesses. Yeah. I was thinking when I 179 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: was going through all of her stuff, like, I feel 180 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: like I wanted to be her friend when I was 181 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: reading her diaries. I mean that might just be my delusion, 182 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: but yeah, but I just loved how much she cared 183 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: about writing and about learning and just about all the 184 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: works she was reading, like actually critiquing it and having 185 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: thoughts on it. There were moments where she was like, 186 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: I was talking to I can't remember the person's name, 187 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: but ostensibly a friend or an associate. I was talking 188 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: to him and he said this about this piece, and 189 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't deal with that. I couldn't handle it. He 190 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: was wrong. I liked her remarks and her reflections on 191 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: how she felt about the work. I liked how she 192 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: was like, that person needs to do some more work, 193 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: like their writing needs to be tightened up, or their 194 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: lecture needs to be tightened up. I really appreciated that 195 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: element of her work, and she wrote so much about it. 196 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: And I know this was just one year of writing, 197 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: of detailed writing about her life, but you could tell 198 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: she spent a lot of time in the books in 199 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: the weeds, and she really enjoyed the knowledge, gathering, consciousness, 200 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: raising elements of everything. 201 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: So she wrote that biography of that man. Did she 202 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: write more public facing work that would kind of get 203 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: into her cultural critic bag or was it all in 204 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: her diary. 205 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: I think it was mostly in her diary. H Yeah, 206 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: I might be wrong about that, but she didn't do 207 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: a ton of public writing that I know of. 208 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: And I think that's a testament of the time that 209 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: she was writing into, because now I can't really imagine 210 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: someone like her just writing that stuff in their diary. 211 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: And maybe that's just like the bubble I'm in, but 212 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: it seems like nowadays, if you are really in the 213 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: books and you got a little pin you can push, 214 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 2: you're pitching the Atlantic, you're pitching the New York Times, 215 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: you're pitching the Cut, you know, yeah, and you're not 216 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: going to just like keep that to yourself. And it's 217 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: interesting too, because I imagine she didn't think about having an 218 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: audience for this diary, but now we like write for 219 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: an audience. I feel like even in our diaries, we 220 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: write for like thinking like, oh somebody might read this, 221 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: like not even just like oh yo, man, going through 222 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: your stuff, but like, oh later when I'm the famous 223 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: and people want to read my diaries, like let me, 224 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: let me put a little funk on this, you know, 225 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: instead of just like writing normal like you would. Right, 226 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: Do you feel that way, because I feel like i'd 227 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: be like, I feel that way. We write a little better. 228 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: I feel that way for myself. So for me, when 229 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: I write in my journals today, it's more about I 230 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: don't want if anybody finds it, I don't want them 231 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: to read this. Sometimes I be leaving out names because 232 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: of that. But then I have to check myself and 233 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: be like, girl, be honest, you are writing this for you, 234 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: so just get it out here, like you don't have 235 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: many places you can do that. I don't really think 236 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: about that in my journals from a larger perspective of 237 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: like what society would read later. However, I do know 238 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: that I have this self surveillance of thinking about what 239 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: if this goes into the archives one day? So it's 240 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: not necessarily conscious for me, but I can't see it 241 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: being unconscious because the reality of it is that I 242 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: have a podcast, I write things, you know, So I 243 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: have things that will exist already in the public sphere 244 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: in some way potentially on the internet for eternity until 245 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: the Internet blows up. So I do probably un blove 246 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: next week, next week, thank god, because some of that 247 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: stuff needs to go away. Yeah, so I do. I 248 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: don't find myself self censoring like for that reason per se, 249 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: But I have an awareness that like, I mean, do 250 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: I want archives, you know? Do I want my estate 251 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: to put some of things in the archives. Do I 252 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: want to be worthy of that? Yes, I think that's 253 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: the thing I would like to be worthy of that, 254 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: Like my work will actually be meaningful to people in 255 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: the future. But do I want my journals and diaries 256 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: to go there? No, absolutely not. But that is what 257 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: happened with Francis, and her eighteen sixty eight diary gives 258 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: us a pretty detailed view of life in Boston and 259 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: South Carolina in the reconstruction era, so it goes beyond 260 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: just her personal reflections about her life. When we get 261 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: back from the break, we'll jump forward about half a 262 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: century to the lively generative period that was the Harlem Renaissance. 263 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: Up next, Alice Dunbar Nelson. Like Francis, Alice advocated for 264 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: political and social causes. She was in wom men's clubs, 265 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: organized for suffrage and focused her journalistic efforts on topics 266 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: like World War One, racial equality, and education. And she 267 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: wrote essays, short stories, and poems. So she shared a 268 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: lot of her thoughts in public. But her diary was 269 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: published in nineteen eighty five, and it was the second 270 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: book length diary of a black woman to be published. 271 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: The first was activist writer and educator Charlotte Forton's in 272 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three. Alice's diary provides an unfiltered look into 273 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: her raw emotions as she endured personal ups and downs. 274 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: As doctor Akasha Gloria Hall says in the book Give 275 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: Us Each Day, the Diary of Alice Dunbar Nelson. During 276 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: the periods when she kept the diary, Dunbar Nelson's life 277 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: was in flux or crisis. Alice started writing her diary 278 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: entries in nineteen twenty one, and her last entry is on, 279 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: as she put it, the last night of a disastrous 280 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: year of nineteen thirty one. 281 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: But a big chunk of her entries are missing from 282 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two to nineteen twenty. 283 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: Five mm hm, because we don't have evidence of them. 284 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: We don't know if Alice wrote during this period, but 285 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: it is likely that she did, so we'll just have 286 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: to be okay with that gap. But beyond that, we 287 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: have a lot of her thoughts and sometimes she even 288 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: typed entries on separate sheets and stuck them on the 289 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: pages in her diary. Sometimes she put flyers, cards and 290 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: invitations in the diary. Here's the first entry. In a preface, 291 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: she wrote just after she began keeping her diary. Had 292 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: I had sense enough to keep a diary all these 293 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: years that I have been traveling around, particularly that memorable 294 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: summer of nineteen eighteen when I did my bit traveling 295 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: through the South for the Council of Defense, well there 296 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: would be less confusion in my mind about lots of things. 297 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: Now I begin this day to keep the record that 298 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: should have been kept long since that flux that doctor 299 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: Hale mentioned, the confusion that Alice mentioned that's present across 300 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: the entries. She talked about her writing, her social advocacy, 301 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: and her teaching, but she also wrote about how she 302 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: struggled financially and how she was quote forty six years 303 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: old in nowhere Yet. Nine years after that comment, she 304 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: wrote the following Saturday, September sixth, nineteen thirty, lay in 305 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: bed and finished per roots is the master of the 306 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: day of judgment and have been wanting to commit suicide 307 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: all day. Life is such a god awful mess and 308 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm such a total and complete failure. God. 309 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 2: We have more suicidal ideation, losing jobs, business and publishing struggles, 310 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: health complications. 311 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: Spiritual development, romantic flings, learning to drive deaths in the family, 312 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: celebrations of spring. She takes us on a whole rollercoaster. 313 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: We get to learn about her writing submissions and subsequent rejections, 314 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: which we're getting her down. Monday, November two, nineteen thirty one, 315 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: sent Harlem John Henry to The Crisis Today. She had 316 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: sent the poem to the Bookmen, Atlantic Monthly, Harper's and 317 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: other places. According to Alice, the rejection from the Bookmen 318 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: came back quote disgustingly prompt and yeah, I can relate, 319 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: but anyway, Harlem John Hemn Reviews. The Armada was eventually 320 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: published in the NAACP's official magazine, The Crisis in January 321 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty two. At the time, writing was a 322 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: boys club that was hard for black women to break into, 323 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: and it was hard for Alice to balance keeping up 324 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: with her work and her activism. Her work did grow 325 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: more popular over time, but her funds did not reflect that. 326 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: She started her journal entry on August nineteenth, nineteen twenty nine. 327 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: This way, I am so flat broke that it is funny. 328 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: An epidemic of poverty seems to have struck us all. 329 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 2: It wasn't all doom and gloom, though there were bright spots, 330 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: moments where she drank and danced and hot from party 331 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: to party. 332 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: Thursday, December eighth, Well, here sitting in the little bear 333 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: dressing room of Robinson's famed Colosseum, while outside, a jazz 334 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: band consisting of five slim black youths are discoursing about 335 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: the snappiest rendition of don't We Have Fun? One Shimmy's automatically. 336 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: Even in my big coat, huddled with the proper missus Miller, 337 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: mine Hostess, and the no less proper Missus Robinson, I 338 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: let go hoarse, voice and all, and shake a shoulder 339 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: and croake a line or two to help on the 340 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: jazz noise. As her diary shows, Alice had quite a 341 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: complicated life. It's disheartening to see how Alice went through 342 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: that same rejection and struggle that so many other black 343 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: women writers did at the time. It's also hard to 344 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: see the mental challenges that she faced in her own words. 345 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: But at the same time we see that Alice lived 346 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: a full life and worked hard and played hard, and 347 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: just like so many artists today, she questions the strength 348 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: of her work and her self worth my diary it's 349 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: going to be a valuable thing one of these days. 350 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: She said on September twenty first, nineteen twenty eight. And 351 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: I'd say she was right. 352 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: So she was pretty cognizant that people would be reading 353 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: this afterwards. Yes, I think she was. I think she 354 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 2: knew that there was a possibility of that, and hers 355 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 2: was entertaining to me. So I wonder if she was 356 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: kind of doing that for the future gaze she. 357 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: Could have been she might've known her life was kind 358 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: of a reality show in a lot of ways. I mean, 359 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: there were a romantic there were love interests on the side. 360 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: There was party, yeah, the party, all the rejections, the drinking. 361 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: People love a little. 362 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: A good little underdog David and Goliath moment. She's getting 363 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: all these rejections. But I mean she's known as a 364 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: big deal of the Harlem renaissance now. But if she 365 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 2: hadn't been writing all those things like who would know 366 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: that you're I say, got rejected seven times and from 367 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 2: which places? Right? 368 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: She was like, let it be know. Yeah, they played 369 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: in my face. And that's my favorite part about reading journals. 370 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean you really get that insight into what they 371 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: were truly thinking. 372 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what mattered because there's a million things that 373 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: happened to you that even if you do keep a journal, 374 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: you're not writing about like you could step on somebody 375 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: foot at the intersection. You probably not going to write 376 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: about that in your journal, but they're gon'll be like 377 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 2: this bitch stepped on my lubitus. 378 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: And you also get an insight into, like I guess 379 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: if you want to do some cycle analyzing, into what 380 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: they choose to include and what they don't choose to include. 381 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: So there might be things that we now in hindsight, 382 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: you know about them, and we know those things happen, 383 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: and they may have represented it a different way in 384 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: their diaries or they might not have included it at all. 385 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: But there's also those moments where you read through stuff 386 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: like this and I say, and I think, why did 387 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: they say it like that? Why does she say did 388 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: my bit? What does that mean? What's behind that? You know, 389 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of subtext behind certain things and things 390 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: where you can see the brackets there, you can see 391 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: the parentheses, and something else happened. We might not get 392 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,719 Speaker 1: to know about it through the diaries, especially because there 393 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: are probably some she wrote that are completely missing for 394 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: many years. 395 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and things that also can't be like really cooperated, 396 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: like Okay, you went on these travels. There weren't like 397 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 2: as many pictures back then, videos like maybe no one 398 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: knew you were traveling like this, or maybe you had 399 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: like a few official stops, but you was going off 400 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 2: to little joy it on the side, you know. So 401 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: it's interesting to hear that, But it's like, I guess 402 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: it's kind of the same way now for people who 403 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: are not famous. I don't think someone like of her 404 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: caliber could do that now could do what like say, 405 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 2: like I'm trying to think of like a well known 406 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: writer now, Tana hose Coats people know where that at, 407 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: Like he don't want people know where he at, and 408 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: people trying to picture. We saw Tanahsey here. You know, 409 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: he bought a house in Brooklyn. You know, I was 410 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: just trying to be normal buying house. They plastered that 411 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: in like a publication. He's like, I can't live in 412 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: this house anymore, Like I ain't want the streets to 413 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: know where I'm at. 414 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: Oh, And it goes deep. It's not even just seeing 415 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: you in public. They see this plant in the background 416 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: in this corner and this stop light on this street, 417 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: and they're like, let me zoom in. I can find 418 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: out where that is Google maps. Let me go check. 419 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 2: I bet his diary it's good, but I know maybe 420 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: he would keep it for people to see, maybe he 421 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 2: have some directions or I don't know, but I just 422 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: don't think that in the time period we're living in, 423 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 2: writers can have like that anonymity. We just have to 424 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 2: go by the word of their diary, like there's other 425 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 2: ways to check and fact check what they said and 426 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: get some corroboration that wasn't available back then. And that 427 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: happens so often for historians and scholars who are going 428 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: back and looking through people's work. And when I'm going 429 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: back and looking at people's biography, sometimes that'll be the 430 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: only work. Sometimes it's an autobiography. Sometimes it's biography that 431 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: was an official biography that where they specifically talk to 432 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 2: the person and wrote the biography for them. And you 433 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: have to go on their word for us today because 434 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: we don't have any other sources to be able to 435 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: fact check. So you end up with inaccurate information. And 436 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: some of that information is like more key, some of 437 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: its small things. But like for instance, like with birth dates, 438 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: people lied about their birthdates all the time. They be 439 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: lying by decades by decades, location child. 440 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: They just be making stuff up and knowing they don't know, 441 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: which I love. That's one of my favorite parts about 442 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: reading biographies. But one thing I did like was that 443 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: first diary entry that I read, when she talked about 444 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: how she wished she would have written journals before. I 445 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: really love that because she's commenting on the significance of 446 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: diary writing just for herself. Because so we were talking 447 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: about how she probably knew that there would be some 448 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: observation of her diary entries at some point, or imagine 449 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: there might be, or assumed there would be, but it 450 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: clearly was doing something for her mental state, and she 451 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: acknowledged that, and she said, you know, I wouldn't have 452 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: had the confusion now if I think that was the truth. 453 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: I think this is a moment of an unreliable narrator. 454 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: I think she was still confused because life is life, 455 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: and life was life and for her, because we haven't 456 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: even gotten into Paul Laurence Dunbar who he had tuberculosis 457 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: I think it was, and he was prescribed alcohol for 458 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: it and got hooked on alcohol. So I mean not 459 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: laughing because it's a funny, funny thing, but it's just 460 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: like it's really dramatic, Like her life is really dramatic 461 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: in a lot of that is shown in this diary. 462 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: And she'll end some of the years like it'll be 463 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: the way the book is organized as chronologically, and doctor 464 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: Hole will give this kind of overview of what's to come. 465 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: In the year, which is saucy. Just read those and 466 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god. But you get to the 467 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 2: end and she'll be like, this year was terrible. Yeah, 468 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: And I'm like, girl, you're still confused. And that's okay 469 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: or is just her perception of things, because I know, 470 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: like I'll be complaining about stuff and people be like girl, 471 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: and they'll like be like boom boom boom, like laying 472 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: out all this stuff about my life that they see 473 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 2: from a different perspective. But I'm just complaining about like 474 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 2: this one thing that's getting on my nerves. And it's like, well, 475 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: just how I feel like you can see all this 476 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 2: stuff like oh you pop in blah blah blah. 477 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: Well I don't feel that way. 478 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: It was that terrible year. 479 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: I am one there with you. I feel you on that. 480 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: I think it's because the negatives often outweigh how the 481 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: positives feel. 482 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, there you feel them more. You feel them one 483 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: hundred percent more. It's so easy for me to go 484 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: back and lay out all the really bad things that 485 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: happen rather than the ups and I have to in 486 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 2: my own life. I check myself on that a lot 487 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: of the time and definitely make sure that I acknowledge 488 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: those things and offer myself gratitude. I got to come 489 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: back to earth sometimes. But she did go through a lot. 490 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: She had deaths in the family and dealt with the 491 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,640 Speaker 1: marital issues, stepping out, her, stepping out, him, stepping out, 492 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: step step. 493 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: Stepside to side, front to back, double dishes. 494 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: Girl, they was doing line dances at a cookout. So yeah, 495 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: I think that was her perception of how things went. 496 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: And there were ups and downs in her life, and 497 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: we got to read about it, and we got to 498 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: read about it, and I am grateful for it. I 499 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: think there are many stories that could come out of 500 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: her life, like dramatize or fictionalized stories that could come 501 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: out of her life. Yeah, that is clear from her diary. 502 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 2: Oh it could be like you know how Moesha had 503 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: the diary, okah diary. It could be her doing a 504 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: little voiceover and then it like goes into the little 505 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: vignette of what she wrote about. 506 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: Okay, next production coming up from. 507 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 2: Eves and Katie, somebody give me a studio. So after 508 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: the break, our last diarist brings us home. Last, but 509 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 2: definitely not least, Alice Walker. Yeah, another Alice, So we'll 510 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: call her by her last name. She's a little different 511 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 2: than our last two diarists because she's still living and 512 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 2: because her journals were published recently. 513 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: Yep, Valerie Boyd edited Gathering Blossoms under Fire, The Journals 514 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: of Alice Walker nineteen sixty five to two thousand. It 515 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: was published in twenty twenty two, so we get a 516 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: kind of real time look at how Walker changed as 517 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: a person and as an artist over time. There's a 518 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: good chance y'all know her, especially with the release of 519 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty three version of The Color Purple film. 520 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: But Alice Walker is a writer and activist, best known 521 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: for writing the novel The Color Purple. The book made 522 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: her the first black woman to win the Police Surprize 523 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: for Fiction, but she also wrote the novel The Temple 524 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: of My Familiar, the nonfiction book In Search of Our 525 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: Mother's Gardens, and many poetry collections, along with dozens of 526 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: other works. Suffice it to say she has classics in 527 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: the literary canon. So it makes sense that now, as 528 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: she enters her eighties, we get to take a peek 529 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: behind the curtain and see how she thinks about the 530 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: big capital eye issues and the small joys of life. 531 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: She wrote about her discovery of Zora Neil Hurston, her Grave, 532 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: and other black women authors whose quote lives ended in 533 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: poverty and obscurity. As she put it August twenty first, 534 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, I did not return to this notebook 535 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: to write about the Caribbean cruise in July, but to 536 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: write my impressions of Eatonville and my hurt and horror 537 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: at the neglect of Zora's memory as evidenced by her Grave. 538 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: I still can't write about it, but I must. She 539 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: wrote a lot about love, relationships, and romance. July sixteenth, 540 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. The Mother Piece says the sun will 541 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: shine again soon, that there is a chance to be 542 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: lovers in a way that heals old wounds. That I 543 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: can handle complexity except when I'm tired. I want a 544 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: simpler life, fewer things, more quality, time with people I love. 545 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: She also wrote about how her work made her feel. 546 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: June sixteenth, nineteen seventy three. I'm glad, I wrote in 547 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: Search of our Mother's Gardens to read at the Ratcliffe 548 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: Symposium on Black Women. But why did I have to 549 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: burst into tears in the forum later? The truth is 550 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: that in a way, I am not embarrassed by tears 551 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: if they are speaking to feeling in life, as opposed 552 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: to abstractions which the forum presenters were indulging in June 553 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: was wonderful. She hugged me. And after Barbara and tear said, 554 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: you're trying to carry your mother and the weight is 555 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: too heavy. June said, but why shouldn't you carry your mother? 556 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: She carried you, didn't she? That is perfection? In a 557 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: short response, it is just that I learn as I 558 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: write about her, all our mothers, just how fantastic they 559 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: were and are. Sometimes I want to write about smashing 560 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: a white face, but it always comes to this. I 561 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: would rather write about our mothers, write up until time 562 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: to smash. Then I just smash, and then if I 563 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: live to tell the tale, I probably wouldn't even bother 564 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: to tell it. I go back to describing our mother's face, 565 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 1: And that same day questions came up related to her 566 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: social and political ideologies. I am upset deeply about the 567 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: subservient condition of African women. I wonder how other women 568 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: feel about this. In an undated nineteen eighty entry, Walker 569 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: said the following, what do we want, my god, what 570 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: do black women writers want? We want freedom? Freedom to 571 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: be ourselves, to write the unwriteable, to say the unsayable, 572 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: to think the unthinkable, to dare to engage the world 573 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: in a conversation it has not had before. So Katie, 574 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 1: I was thinking when I was reading Alice Walker's journal 575 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: entries that she knew somebody was going to read those. 576 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: Yes, she's been famous for a very long time. 577 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: She has been famous for a long time, and these 578 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: entries go back to you to the earlier years of 579 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: her famous. She's been famous for a long time still. 580 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: But the way she was right in the full sentences 581 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: m dashes, she knew yeah. And it's funny her diary 582 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: entries like she'll spill some like t on people that 583 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: are still alive, and most people don't do that. Like girl, 584 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: you do not care. Like it's funny when you like 585 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: are encountering like old black people, I think especially they 586 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 2: do not care they're like whatever, Like what you're gonna do. 587 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: They'll just say anything, yes and write it down. Do 588 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: you think that's wrong or are you cool with that? I 589 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: mean personally you didn't talk about me because but I 590 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: mean I think it's just like honest, Like, I know, 591 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: people be like mad at you when you like talk 592 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 2: about them about some shit they did, like you did it. Like, 593 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: as long as I'm not lying on you, you did it, 594 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: So don't be mad, be mad at yourself. All I 595 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 2: can do is pray for you. 596 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're gonna be mad still though, Keep praying. 597 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: But yeah, I do find that like funny about Alice 598 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: Walker's diary entries. But I do like that hers were 599 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: released while she was still alive. I think there's something 600 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 2: about like the agency of it that I appreciate. She 601 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: did work with Valerie Boyd, who unfortunately passed away before 602 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: the collection was published, but she was the editor for 603 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: it and worked really hard on that. And Emory holds 604 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: the Alice Walker papers, so you can go to Emory 605 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: Library and see her diary entries. Not all of them 606 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: are like as as neat like some of them. It's 607 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 2: just like legal paths and she's drawing stuff, like she 608 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: had a really beautiful house, like drawing the estate and 609 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: planning parties, and so it's like really cool to see 610 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: her social life, all the people she's been in relationships 611 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: with so many people, like romantic but also just like platonic, 612 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 2: Like she's friends with a lot of people and seeing 613 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: them come in and out of her sphere is really 614 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: cool too. 615 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that about I like that. You know, 616 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: there was name dropping across all these diary entries, all 617 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: even and sometimes there were closer personal relationships, like with 618 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: the when we were talking about Francis, those were lectures 619 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: she was going to see if people. But once we 620 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: get into Alice Dunbar and Nelson and we get into 621 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: Alice Walker, they're like, this is who I was colt 622 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: sing with, you know, yeah, I mean Langston Hughes. You know. 623 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: In the journal entries, Alice Walker had an entry of 624 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: I think it was a poem she wrote to Langston 625 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: Hughes and he was a mentor of hers, and she 626 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: obviously had a lot of feelings after he died. And 627 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: I just felt like spaces were so lively, like I 628 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: could see the back and forth, like the communication and 629 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: the camaraderie that was happening between people whose names I know, 630 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, people who was writing that I admire, or 631 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: just artistry in general that I admire, and they're like, yes, 632 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: this person came to my party. We were at this bookstore, 633 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: and I'm just like, wow, that seems so warm. It 634 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: just felt so warm and yellow in so many moments 635 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: in the diary entries and from a way where we 636 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: saw the be happy about that, because I feel like 637 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: now when we look at artists that we admire from 638 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: the outside, it looks like it can be like a 639 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: keeping up, like there's images you're trying to keep up with, 640 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: or like levels you're trying to reach. It can be 641 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: a lot of social maneuvering around it, and we don't 642 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 1: often get to see when we don't know people people 643 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: we admire who are in public spheres, like how they 644 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: feel about their writing, how they feel like, wow, I 645 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: did this, I'm proud of myself, or I love my people, 646 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad my people showed up for me. 647 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 2: An interview that you know is going to be published 648 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: on this day, or an acceptance speech where like, of 649 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 2: course you have to say those things, but like, what 650 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 2: are you saying, like to yourself, like before you go 651 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: to bed at night. 652 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it can also seem like people are 653 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: so self assured about their fame and success and that 654 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: they're just like this, it is what it is. I'm 655 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 1: in these circles now, I'm on this different level now, 656 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 1: and it just is. It just be And it's nice 657 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: to see some of the struggles, like in Alice Dunbar 658 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: Nelson's case, she had a lot of struggles with getting 659 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: her work published that she actually talked about, and also 660 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: seeing the humanity behind the notoriety. Yeah, that was nice. 661 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: So Alice Walker did do an interview with The New 662 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: York Times not that long ago, and she said, quote, 663 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: I want the journals to be used so that people 664 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: can see this working through of disappointment, anger, sorrow, regret. 665 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: So in that sense, it's a medicine book. And I 666 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: liked that quote. I liked thinking of these diaries as healing. 667 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: I think that was like a good way to go 668 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: back and think about all of the diary entries we 669 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: have from black women. And we did talk a lot 670 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: about people who have actual storytelling capacities, but it wasn't 671 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: that way for you know, everyone, and not to the 672 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: same extent as to the Alicees was for Francis, but 673 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: they were medicine for themselves, which they actually said, this 674 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: made me feel better, As Alice Dunbar Nelson said, there 675 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: are medicines for people who are reading and getting to 676 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: see more of that interiority of people that we might 677 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: look up to or who had challenges, like some of 678 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: the enslaved people's narratives, and that we get to see 679 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: that range of emotions and that it's not all things 680 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: aren't always so cut and dry, they're not always so 681 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow like they 682 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: are when they're presented to us, and even personal narratives 683 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: like biographies, and I appreciate that, and that we can 684 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: see that happen over time with the three people we 685 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: had today, like this is from the eighteen hundred to 686 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds to this very moment with Alice Walker 687 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: still living today. 688 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 2: One thing I would like to see is diary entries 689 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 2: from kind of just regular black women, because like these women, 690 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 2: they had a certain amount of leisure time. You know, 691 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,919 Speaker 2: like the first lady, she's living in a time where 692 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 2: slavery is existing, but she's a free black woman. But 693 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 2: it's like, what was it like to be a black 694 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 2: woman with five kids in the South d'ur in the sixties. 695 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: You know, I don't think those people really had the 696 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 2: luxury of sitting down and writing all that down. 697 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: They did not. I think doctor Hole actually talks about 698 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: that in her scholarship. You're starting from a specific place 699 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: when you have the luxury of these journals, and you 700 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: can see that influx in these people's diaries too, because 701 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: some of it is that it's just not extant, but 702 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: some of it is that they just weren't writing at 703 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: those times, and those times we have evidence of. But 704 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: I think sometimes we too can also assume like they 705 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: just didn't have as much space in their lives to 706 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: write these journals. I agree with you, and I also 707 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: think on the flip side, it's nice to see black 708 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 1: women have ease to be able to do that. Yeah, 709 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: But I think, you know, these women we talked about today, 710 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: it's like their heritages were really mixed too, and there 711 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: were free people of color, and they had like high 712 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 1: status in society, had money, So yeah, it was a 713 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: lot of social class privilege that was happening for these 714 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: people for sure, and education. 715 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 2: How Alice Walker said it could be medicine, Like, I 716 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 2: don't know, I don't think I want to get our 717 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 2: Alice's level, you know, and most people aren't going to 718 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 2: be an Alice Walker, but a lot of people are 719 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 2: going to be just more normal. So it's like, what 720 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: were normal black women who did not have access to 721 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 2: all these like really cool scenes and people and travel, 722 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 2: Like where's our medicine? Not saying that we can't get 723 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 2: anything from these women who are living different lives than us, 724 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: but I just want to see more. 725 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: More yeah, more variety, more range. I mean, we still 726 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: ask them for those things today at a media representation, and 727 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: it would be nice to have those that kind of 728 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: perspective on this smaller level that is more touchable, that's 729 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: more accessible to us. They exist, but they're farther and 730 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: fewer between. And I also would imagine that like archiving 731 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: becomes another issue in this for people like that. So 732 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: these people have families who had spaces to keep them, 733 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: but we start talking about housing and being itinerant or 734 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, not always having financial, economic and housing security. 735 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: You know that probably also went along with the people 736 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: who were like have five kids and they didn't have 737 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: this writing stature or any sort of artistic our professional stature, 738 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: and travel. These women did a lot of traveling. You know, 739 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: they didn't have all that and they didn't have people 740 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: who could keep up with it and make sure that 741 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: it remained in existence over time. So I think, you know, 742 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: those are harder, but yeah, we do need more of those, 743 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 1: and not just from a personal perspective, I think also 744 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 1: from a like sociological anthropological perspective for us to get 745 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: a better handle and sense of how life was in 746 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: the past. And this just scratches the surface of all 747 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: the diaries that writers and non writers alike have kept. 748 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: There are the diaries of activists and teacher Charlotte for 749 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: ingrim Key, journalist Ida B. Wells, poet Gwendolyn Bennett, and 750 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: writer Jaanita Harrison, and they're all storytellers with some name 751 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: recognition exactly. There are people like Emily Francis Davis, who 752 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: was a free black woman in Philly during the Civil War. 753 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: She wrote a diary that can help us time travel 754 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: and see what day to day life was like for 755 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: her and get engauge on responses to the Civil War. 756 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: Mary Virginia Montgomery and Laura Hamilton Murray and plenty of 757 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: other black women named and unnamed have penned diaries. 758 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: Now it is time for roll credits, the segment where 759 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that 760 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 2: we encountered during the week. Ease, who are what would 761 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 2: you like to give credit to? 762 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: I'll give credit to Ida b Wells, who we briefly 763 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: mentioned it today's episode, but she also wrote diary entries 764 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: where we got to learn more about her journey, her journalism, 765 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: the events that happened to her, all the work that 766 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: she was doing back in the day, and you can 767 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 1: read those and those are super insightful about her work 768 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: as well. 769 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 2: I would like to give credit to celebrating posthumous birthdays. 770 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 2: Yesterday would have been my grandpa's eighty seventh birthday, and 771 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 2: so I made a dish that he was known for making, 772 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: and me and my family ate it and it was 773 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 2: just a way to celebrate that was not sad. So 774 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 2: I've been doing that for the last couple of years 775 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,439 Speaker 2: since he passed and it's fun. 776 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: On whatever. 777 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 2: Happy birthday, Grandpa, Thank you, and with that, we will 778 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 2: see y'all next week. 779 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: Bye y'all bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio 780 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, 781 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by 782 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on Theme Show. 783 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: You can also send us an email at Hello at 784 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: on Theme Dot Show. Had to one Theme Dot Show 785 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: to check out the show notes for episodes. For more 786 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 787 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.