1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we have returned 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 3: with Part two of our Halloween season series on the 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 3: monsters and demons of ancient Mesopotamian religion. Now, if you 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 3: haven't heard part one yet, this is really one of 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 3: those series where I think you should go back and 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 3: listen to part one first. I would recommend that because 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 3: in that episode we have a general discussion about the 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 3: connotations of the English word demon and the ways it 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 3: both does and does not describe these entities from ancient Mesopotamia, 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 3: and we also get into some general general trends and 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 3: observations about the spirits and supernatural forces of ancient Mesopotamian religions. 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 3: But in that episode we also talk about a number 16 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 3: of specific horrifying creatures depicted in the literature and artworks 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 3: of this region and time period, including Humbaba or Huahwa, 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 3: whose breath is death and whose face is an omen 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 3: when seen in the spilled intestines of a sheep. We 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 3: talked about the terrifying oppressor Lamashtu, who threatens infants and 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 3: pregnant women, And we talked about Pazuzu, the demon or 22 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: perhaps god, depending on your take of the Southwest Winds, 23 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 3: known best to modern audiences as the devil that possesses 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: Reagan McNeil in the Exorcist. And then finally we talked 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: about some actually quite surprising qualities of Pazuzu in his 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 3: original cultural context, in which he was often seen as 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 3: not just a malevolent threat in himself, but as an 28 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: apotropaic protector, warding off other evil beings, the Riddic principle, 29 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: if you will. 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: We also talked about how no one really knows for 31 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: sure how to pronounce any of these words or names. 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: We have some best practices recommended by scholars, and we 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: try to follow that, but ultimately no one can know 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: for sure. Like, for instance, inky do, What if it's 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: inky do? No one ever says it like that, But 36 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: it's not impossible that that was the original pronunciation, right, 37 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 2: I think people say it like that, inky do. 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard that inky do. 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: I don't know, it just feels wrong. 40 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: It just thinks I've said it that way. 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: It doesn't have the same gravitized you know, I don't 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: know it sounds a little like preschooler educational program. 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: It does sound like a word my daughter would say, 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 3: just one of those words she makes up. 45 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: Now. When I told my wife that we were going 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: to do a couple of episodes about ancient Mesopotamian demons, 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: she jokingly asked if we were going to talk about Gooser. Ah. 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,399 Speaker 2: And you know, readers of Tobin Spirit Guide know all 49 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: too well that Gozer the Gazarian is said to have 50 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: been an ancient extra dimensional entity worshiped in ancient Mesopotamia, 51 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: attended to by two guardians, Vince Clortho the key Master 52 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: and Zeel the Gatekeeper. Ah. 53 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 3: Yes, who can forget the frantic search of Rick moranis 54 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: for the Gatekeeper. I am Vince Clortho, key Master of Gozer. 55 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: Yes, we are, of course talking about Ghostbusters again. And 56 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: to be very clear, Goser and their attendance are fictional 57 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: creations of Dan Ackroyd and Harold Ramis, and their names 58 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: have no connection to the actual mythologies the actual religions 59 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: of ancient Mesopotamia. In fact, in interviews, Ackroyd has pointed 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: to two key inspirations for the name Gozer. In the film, 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: he claims there was a Goser Chevrolet dealership in upstate 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: New York, and that the name Gozer is somehow connected 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: to her involved in an alleged Poltergeist haunting. So I 64 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: don't doubt Akroyd on either of these counts. But I 65 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: also couldn't find any solid evidence of either. But you know, 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: it seems very likely on both counts, because I believe 67 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: Gozer or something like it is a relatively common Turkish 68 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: last name, And as far as haunting stories go, I 69 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: mean sure, anything as possible. 70 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 3: In the realm of ghosts. You can make up whatever 71 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: words you want. 72 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. But that being said, Gozer is a pretty great 73 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: fictional demonic god played by Slaves Jovin and voiced by 74 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: Patty Edwards and the original Ghostbusters and Act and then 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: in the recent Ghostbusters Afterlife played by Olivia Wilde and 76 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: voice by show ray adashlu. I like both incarnations of 77 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: the deity. Both both awesome in my opinion. 78 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 3: I haven't seen the new Ghostbusters stuff, but. 79 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: It's worth it for Gozer, worthy for Gozer. Okay, So 80 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: Goser works, especially in the original Ghostbusters, in a large 81 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: part because Akroyd and Ramis really had a lot of 82 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: enthusiasm clearly for weird fiction acroid in particular for the 83 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: occult and spiritualism. I think he said, I have like 84 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: a family connection to some of that stuff, and you know, 85 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: to a limited degree, I would say the idea of 86 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 2: Gozer is a kind of guardian death god, guard of 87 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: the god of the underworld, feels appropriate for ancient Mesopotamia. 88 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 2: That being said, I believe in the film or supporting 89 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: material they give a date of like six thousand BCE 90 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: for Goser's worship, and that would put this figure well 91 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: outside the historical framework that we've been considering in these episodes. 92 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: So Gozer would in this case be like a firmly 93 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: Neolithic deity. 94 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: It would be from before written sources. 95 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so again no actual grounding in ancient Mesopotamian myth. 96 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: Though the name, as you and I were discussing off 97 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: Mike the other day, does sound similar to the ancient 98 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: Egyptian pharaoh that is therefore essentially a god, an individual 99 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: by the name of Joser Jesser Zoser. Even often I 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: think the primary spelling you run across in English is Djosc, 101 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: but I've also seen it as Zeo z Er. 102 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 3: Hmm. 103 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: Okay, his name apparently refers to the ancient Egyptian symbol 104 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 2: of stability, a kind of terrorist pillar known as the Jed. 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: I mainly associate the pharaoh Joser with his his pyramid, 106 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: which is a step pyramid, and it's different from the 107 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: pyramids on the Giza plateau. But this one is really early. 108 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 3: It was apparently like the first of the big stone 109 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 3: monuments of ancient Egypt. Yeah. 110 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, So anyway, that's just a brief aside about Gozer. 111 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: But and then when we may come back briefly to 112 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: the idea of Gozer, but let's turn now to some 113 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: more amazing actual demons and monsters from the world of 114 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: ancient Mesopotamian myth and religion. 115 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: That's right, so to get to the real ones, but 116 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: not to leave the movie connections. I just had another 117 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 3: quick note on Pizuzu, which we talked about at length 118 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 3: in the last episode. I was looking at some artifacts 119 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: pictured photographed in a book that was published by the J. 120 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: Paul Getty Museum that had text by Arian Thomas and 121 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 3: Timothy Potts. This was published in twenty twenty. This book 122 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: features an image of a full bronze statuette of Pazuzu, 123 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 3: from the Neo Assyrian period, and it is depicted in 124 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: the statuette much like the common Pazuzu description we talked 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: about in the last episode, and there were lots of 126 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: depictions of Pazuzu because of his common use in protective 127 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: household magic. But I thought a really cool thing about 128 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: this is that the statuette has an inscription on the 129 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: back and it like says, here's who I am. It says, 130 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: I am Pazuzu, son of Hanbu, king of the Leelu demons. 131 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: I have scaled the powerful mountains. They trembled the contrary 132 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 3: winds sometimes seen translated as enemy winds or something like that. 133 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: The contrary winds were headed west one by one. I 134 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 3: broke their wings. 135 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, Pazuzu, the breaker of the wings of the wind. 136 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 3: Once again reminds me of your Godzilla comparison from last time. 137 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 3: You know that you is like, this is the king 138 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: of monsters in a sense, the breaker of other monsters. 139 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: That's right, but still dangerous in its own right. 140 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. So this inscription mentions that Pazuzu ruled over the 141 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: other demons of the wind. He was strong enough to 142 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 3: repel and subjugate them, as in the description. One by one, 143 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 3: I broke their wings and he says he is king 144 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: of the Leelu demons. So who are these demons? Well, 145 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: I decided to look them up as well, because we 146 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: didn't end up talking about them by name in the 147 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: last episode. We may have sort of referred to a 148 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 3: class of wind associated demons that would include these demons. 149 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: But here I'm going to refer again to a text 150 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 3: that we brought up that we used in the last 151 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: episode and will refer to again in this episode. This 152 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: is God's Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia and illustrated 153 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: dictionary from British Museum Press, written by these scholars, Jeremy 154 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: Black and Antheon Green and illustrated by Tessa Rickards. So, 155 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: regarding the Leelu demons, Black and Green refer to them 156 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: as a family group of demons. So you got one 157 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,079 Speaker 3: male demon named Leelu and two female demons named Li 158 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 3: Leitu and our dot lee Lee. The Leelu and Lilitu 159 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: are associated with the wilderness. They are malicious demons who 160 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 3: haunt the open desert in empty places, and much like 161 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: the demonus lamash Tou, they pray especially on pregnant women 162 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 3: and young children. The r dot le Lee, on the 163 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: other hand, is interesting because she seems to embody something 164 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: we see in a lot of monstrous imagery throughout the 165 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 3: ages that seems to embody, especially male anxieties about womanhood. 166 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, the are dot Lee Lee certainly betrays very strict 167 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: ideals about what a woman's role or roles are in society. 168 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: That she is mother and she is wife, and a 169 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: woman that cannot act in these roles is essentially a 170 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: monster worthy of treatment as such. In these myths Black 171 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: and Green include the translated quote she is not a 172 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: wife a mother, She has not known happiness, she has 173 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: not undressed in front of her husband, has no milk 174 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: in her breasts. And then, you know, the most monstrous 175 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: creature then spreads impudence and infertility to other mortals like 176 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: a curse. So real, really rough stuff. But you know, 177 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: certainly you can use it as a lens to sort 178 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: of see like what were like the accepted roles and 179 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: limitations for people during this age. 180 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the idea of a feminine entity who does 181 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 3: not fit into any of the socially prescribed roles for 182 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: a woman so such as mother or wife is in 183 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: itself a terrifying thought. 184 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. I also looked up the ar dot Lelee in 185 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: one of Carol Rose's books, or Encyclopaedia of Faaries and Leprechauns, 186 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: and she says that the name literally means made of 187 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: desolation and describes it as a wild haired, winged creature 188 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: that will entice mortals to lonely desolate places and then 189 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: attack them. 190 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. And also, you know, in this century, Black and 191 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: Green compare the ar dot Lele to a figure from 192 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: Hebrew folklore known as Lilith, a sort of alternate accounts 193 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 3: of creation that are parallel to what we see in 194 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: the Book of Genesis. There's this figure of Lilith that 195 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 3: is also created that. I think there's a lot been 196 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 3: written about Lilith as well, commenting on the ways that 197 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: it reflects anxiety about socially nonconforming womanhood. I think this 198 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 3: is not limited to the ancient world, of course. There's 199 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 3: still a lot of men who are going to see 200 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: women who are not fitting into the social roles that 201 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 3: they believe women should fit into and thus conclude that 202 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 3: that woman is some kind of a monster. 203 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think this is always one of the interesting 204 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: things about in particular, but also other trappings of myth 205 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: and religion. It's like, no matter how fantastic the creature, 206 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 2: the story is like the ideas involved, you know, often 207 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 2: resonate across the ages, and they often do line up 208 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: with some of the same problems that we have today. 209 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean monsters. They may not exist in reality, 210 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: they are made up, but they reflect what people have 211 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: on their minds, so they are actually I think, informative 212 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: about reality. They show people, they show weird sort of 213 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 3: like cracks and fissures in our categories, in our minds, 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 3: because monsters often occur at the intersection of categories, or 215 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: when we encounter a kind of being or concept that 216 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: doesn't fit into our category matrix very well, then we 217 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 3: make a monster out of it, or we simply just 218 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: express what's worrying us in some kind of physical form 219 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 3: in the form of a monster. And those worries can 220 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 3: of course be in some cases very understandable even universal. 221 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: In other cases, they can be pretty nasty. They can 222 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: reflect nasty attitudes, they can reflect misogyny, they can reflect 223 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: whatever is preoccupying people, understandable or not. 224 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Joe, why don't we move on to something 225 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: for the men here, specifically the scorpion men. 226 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: Hey, well, I'll give a preview that these next creatures 227 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 3: that gear tablulu are often referred to as scorpion men, 228 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: but there are scorpion women as well, so we will 229 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: get both. But in the previous episode we talked about 230 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 3: the various human animal hybrids depicted in Sumerian and Tikadian 231 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: literature and then depicted in artwork from throughout the region 232 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: in the Neosyrian, Neo Babylonian period and so forth. In 233 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 3: some cases, it could be debated whether it is better 234 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 3: to call these monsters demons or some other kind of ETag, 235 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: even in some cases a god. But however we classify 236 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: them they are awesome. There are mermaids and mermen with 237 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: the head of a human and the tail and lower 238 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: body of a fish. There are centaurs half human and 239 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 3: half horse. There are lion centaurs part lion, part human, 240 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: and finally there are the geartablulu, the scorpion men or 241 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: scorpion people. According to Black and Green, a scorpion man 242 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: is usually depicted as follows. So it's got a human 243 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 3: head with a majestic and luxurious beard on top of 244 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 3: his head. He often wears a horned cap and sidebar 245 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 3: on the horned cap because I got interested in this 246 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: and it seems like an important symbol. The horned cap 247 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 3: appears throughout Mesopotamian art beginning in the early third millennium BCE, 248 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: and seems to be associated with power and godhood in 249 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 3: different periods of history. It is associated with like different 250 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 3: primary gods from the pantheons. So it might be be 251 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: that the you know, in one period the horned cap 252 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 3: is really the symbol of this god, and another periods 253 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 3: the Southern God. But it remains fairly consistent as a 254 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: symbol of divine status. Now, why does a horned cap 255 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 3: mean divine status? Black and Green speculate that the godlike 256 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: associations might be derived from the horns of the now 257 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 3: extinct wild bovine Bose primogeneous, commonly known as the orux. 258 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: Now the orux was a wild ancestor of today's domestic cattle, 259 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: and still existed in its wild form during much of 260 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: human history, probably up until the seventeenth century CE in 261 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: some places, so just a few hundred years ago that 262 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: it finally went globally extinct, and they were still being 263 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: hunted by kings during the Neo Assyrian period in Mesopotamia. 264 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 3: These beasts were massive and awe inspiring, larger than most 265 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: domestic cattle today, with some bull oryx standing up nearly 266 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 3: six feet tall at the shoulder and having gigantic thick 267 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: horns more than eighty centimeters or about two point six 268 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: feet long, with each horn having a diameter of up 269 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 3: to between ten and eighteen centimeters, so huge horns. I 270 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 3: sometimes mention on the show that, like, if you're not 271 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: a farmer or a rancher and you only ever see 272 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: domestic farm animals like cattle and horses on TV, it 273 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: can be kind of shocking, like their size and power 274 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: when you actually get up close to one. An example 275 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 3: I've used before is that cattle can seem very docile 276 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: and bulky and slow moving until you see one suddenly 277 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: leap over a fence or start running at full speed, 278 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 3: and then you're like, WHOA, I did not imagine that 279 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: animal was capable of this. But the wild rix was 280 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 3: even larger, more powerful, less docile, with horns like tim 281 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 3: Curry and Legend. So just an awe and firing beast. 282 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: And with that in mind, it's not that hard to 283 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 3: imagine that the horns of the aurux could be a 284 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: perfect symbol of kingly power, power, strength, and will, and 285 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 3: thus a cap with horns on it would be a 286 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: marker of divinity in art. But ultimately this is speculative. 287 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: We can't know for sure exactly why this imagery was used, 288 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 3: but seems to me like a good gas. 289 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: Okay, so not actual horns growing out of the scorpion 290 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 2: man's head, but something more akin to a crown. 291 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 3: Right the horned cap. So back to the scorpion man 292 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: usually depicted as I said, with the human head, thick beard, 293 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 3: and the horned cap of divinity. The scorpion man typically 294 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 3: had a human's upper body, so it would be kind 295 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 3: of human shaped from the diaphragm up. This seems pretty 296 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 3: consistent throughout representations, but then going down from here there 297 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 3: is some variation. Sometimes you'd get what looks like a 298 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 3: human abdomen, human pelvis, human thighs, but then going down 299 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: in the lower lege into bird legs and bird feet 300 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 3: with the talons of a raptor. 301 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: As we discussed in the last episode, this is pretty 302 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: common in a lot of different demons and godlike beings 303 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: in ancient Mesopotamia, and as we've talked about on the 304 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 2: show too, like this idea of demons having the legs 305 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 2: of a bird, this doesn't quite go away. We see 306 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: perhaps the reverberations of this on through like medieval and 307 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: post medieval times. 308 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 3: That's right now. Another variation is that sometimes beneath the chest, 309 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 3: sort of from the bottom of the ribs on down, 310 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: you would instead get a more horizontal body, kind of 311 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: egg shaped body that I'm not sure if this is 312 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: supposed to represent a scorpion's body enlarged or maybe a 313 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: bird's body. It looks almost in some depictions, kind of 314 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: like a duck with instead of a duck's neck, just 315 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 3: a human's upper body from the chest up. And then 316 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 3: this also descends into feet with bird claws. I don't know, Rob, 317 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 3: you look at this, do you do you see scorpion 318 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: body or bird body? 319 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: I mean it feels more bird body to me. 320 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 3: So whether the midsection is human or avian or iraqanid, 321 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 3: in any case, you will get a scorpion tail. This 322 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: is the promise of the premise, right. It is raised 323 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 3: in a threatening pose, and it is ready to strike 324 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: with its deadly sting. 325 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: And to be clear it does not look like the 326 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: Scorpion King has portrayed by Dwayne Johnson in one of 327 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: the Scorpion King sequels. 328 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 3: Which is a real shame. Some of the best cgi 329 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 3: of all time. 330 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: Oh. 331 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 3: Also, sometimes you get wings in an X shape, like 332 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 3: we discussed with representations of Pazuzu and other wind demons, 333 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 3: these X shaped wings. And sometimes you get also, like 334 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 3: we discussed with Pazuzu, a penis that has a snakehead. 335 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 3: What is the meaning of the snakehead penis. It is 336 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 3: hard to say exactly, but I feel like I get 337 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 3: the gist. So scorpion men are mentioned in several of 338 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 3: the best known works of ancient Mesopotamian literature. First of all, 339 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: they appear among a catalog of demons and monsters in 340 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: the inuma Aleish, the Babylonian Epic of Creation. So in 341 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 3: the text, there is a character Tiamot, who is the 342 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: personification of the primordial ocean the salt waters, and Tiamot 343 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 3: is seeking revenge for the slaughter of her consort Opsu, 344 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 3: who is the personification of fresh water. These two are 345 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 3: kind of the original primordial deities. And then kind of 346 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: like in the kind of like in the In the 347 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: Greek stories, we get different generations of gods descending from them. 348 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: In this story, Opsu gets really mad at the younger 349 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 3: generations of gods because they are creating a commotion. I 350 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 3: think they're being too loud and boisterous, and he wants 351 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: to destroy them, but the gods kill Apsu first. And 352 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 3: then in preparing for vengeance, Tiamat creates or gathers a 353 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 3: bunch of monsters to her side to serve under her 354 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 3: son and new consort, Kingu. And then I'm going to 355 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: read from the inuma Elish. This is the Leonard William 356 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 3: King translation talking about these monsters serving Tiamot with poison 357 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: instead of blood. She hath filled their bodies fierce monster vipers. 358 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 3: She hath clothed with terror, with splendor. She hath decked them. 359 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: She hath made them of lofty stature. Whoever beholdeth them 360 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 3: is overcome by terror. Their bodies rear up, and none 361 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: can withstand their attack. She hath set up vipers and 362 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 3: dragons and the monster Lehamu, and hurricanes and raging hounds 363 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: and scorpion men and mighty tempests and fish men and rams. 364 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 3: They bear cruel weapons without fear of the fight. Okay, 365 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 3: so from this Acadian source from the second millennium BCE, 366 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 3: we can sort of see the company they keep, right, 367 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 3: they're among all of these monstrous beings who might run 368 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: out to fight against Marduk, but other we don't get 369 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 3: a lot of description here. However, the scorpion beings also 370 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: appear in the epic of Gilgamesh, where they play a 371 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: more active role in the plot, and they also, in 372 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 3: this case appear in both male and female forms. So 373 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 3: the scorpion beings show up in tablet nine of the 374 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 3: Gilgamesh epic, where a lot of the text of the 375 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 3: epic has been lost, leaving us with fragmentary and missing 376 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 3: lines throughout, but they still make quite an impression even 377 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 3: if some of their part of the story is gone. Now. 378 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: So the context is that Gilgamesh's friend, the wild man 379 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: in key Dou, has been killed by a curse from 380 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 3: the gods in punishment for the fact that together Gilgamesh 381 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 3: and in key Dou killed the monster Humbaba, who we 382 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 3: talked about at the beginning of the last episode. You know, 383 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 3: the big scary monster the guards the Cedar forest. Gilgamesh 384 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 3: and key Dou go in there and they fight Humbaba 385 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 3: and they kill him, and so in revenge for that, 386 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 3: the gods kill in key Dou with a curse. And 387 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 3: then Gilgamesh is distraught over the death of his friend, 388 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: and he embraces in Keydu's body, refusing to believe that 389 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 3: he has died, until finally maggots begin to fall from 390 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: in Keyedu's face. So Gilgamash is horrified not only by 391 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 3: the loss of his friend, but by the realization that 392 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: he is going to have to die one day himself. 393 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 3: It's in a lot of ways, it's a kind of 394 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 3: almost humorously self focused reaction to that. He starts thinking, 395 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: I can't this can't happen to me, because you know, 396 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: it means he would be taken down to the gloomy, 397 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: horrible nether world where dust is your food and clay 398 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 3: is your meat, and it's just horrible to think about 399 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: how this fate is unavoidable. Unavoidable that is for most mortals. 400 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 3: But there is one man within the story who knows 401 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: the secret to eternal life, and that is the aged Utnapishtim, 402 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: the son of Ubaratutu, who, along with his family, was 403 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 3: granted eternal life by the gods. Now, Utnapishtim is the 404 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: protagonist of another story. He is the survivor of the 405 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: Mesopotamian flood myth, of which Noah's flood story in the 406 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 3: Book of Genesis seems to be a very close analog, 407 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 3: so you can think of Utnapishtim and Noah as similar characters. Anyway, 408 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 3: Utnapishtim and his family they have the gift of immortality, 409 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: and so Gilgamash is going to try to get to 410 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 3: Utnapishtim to figure out how to live forever himself. But 411 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: to reach the old Man, Gilgamash has to go on 412 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 3: along and perilous journey, and at one point in his 413 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 3: journey he comes to the peaks of Mount Mashu, the 414 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 3: mountain of the horizon, and there, nestled in the belly 415 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 3: of the mountain is a great, yawning tunnel which he 416 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 3: must pass through to meet the immortal One. But it's 417 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 3: not just any tunnel. This tunnel is the path of 418 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: the Sun. So every at sunset, the sun god Shamash 419 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 3: must descend into one end of this tunnel and then 420 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 3: emerge out the other side at dawn. Anyway, guarding the 421 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: entrance of the path of the sun tunnel are two 422 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 3: monstrous beings. You've got a scorpion man and a scorpion woman. 423 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 3: So here I'm going to read from the Epic of 424 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: Gilgamesh Tablet. Nine. This is the Stephanie Dally translation. And 425 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 3: to be clear, there are some gaps in the text 426 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 3: here and speculative words filled in. I'll try to make 427 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: it smooth so it reads the name of the mountain 428 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 3: is Mashu. When he reached the mountain Mashu, which daily 429 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: guards the coming out of Shamash, their upper parts touch 430 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 3: the sky's foundation. Below their breasts reach Aralu, meaning the underworld. 431 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: They guard its gate. Scorpion men, whose aura is frightful 432 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 3: and whose glance is death. They're terrifying. Mantles of radiance 433 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 3: drape the mountains. They guard the sun at dawn and dusk. 434 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 3: Gilgamesh looked at them, and fear and terror clouded his face. 435 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: He took the initiative and gestured to them in greeting. 436 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: A scorpion man shouted to his woman, someone has come 437 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 3: to us. His body is the flesh of gods. The 438 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 3: scorpion man's woman answered him to thirds of him is 439 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 3: divine and one third of him is mortal, so I 440 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 3: like that there. The scorpion woman is a bit more 441 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 3: discerning in detecting mortality. Now, after this there is a 442 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 3: section where a lot is missing. But it seems that 443 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 3: what happens is the scorpion beings question Gilgamesh and where 444 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: he's going, and he tells them he is traveling to 445 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 3: meet his ancestor Napisht him they warn him not to 446 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 3: try it because to reach it Napishtim, Gilgamesh has to 447 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 3: pass through the tunnel under the mountain, which is filled 448 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 3: with the thickest darkness. No man has ever made the 449 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 3: journey alive, and missing text prevents us from knowing exactly 450 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 3: what happens. But it seems that maybe the scorpion beings 451 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 3: take pity on Gilga and then allow him to pass 452 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 3: into the deep and he has to travel a full 453 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 3: day in this hot, pitch blackness, but he does survive 454 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 3: the journey and he makes it out to the other side, 455 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 3: where he emerges into the garden of Shamash, where the 456 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 3: trees are made of stone and they bear jewels as 457 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: their fruits. So you can see different roles here in 458 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 3: the Alish The scorpion people seem to be simply grouped 459 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: among other poisonous monstrosities, the fighters of the primordial Sea, 460 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 3: mother of Chaos, and they're going to do battle against 461 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 3: Marduk and the younger generation of gods. But in Gilgamesh, 462 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 3: while they are still presented as deadly and terrifying, they're 463 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 3: more human and more humane. And though this part is speculative, 464 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 3: one interpretation of the fragmentary text is that they allow 465 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 3: Gilgamesh to pass the Gate of the Sun because they 466 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 3: take pity on him. And according to Black and Green, 467 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: you can see this duality in the way the image 468 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 3: of the scorpion person is used for artistic and magical purposes. 469 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: Much like Pazuzu, this horrifying entity can not only attack, 470 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: he can also protect. So they chart the history of 471 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 3: this imagery, saying that the scorpion person first appears in 472 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: the Akkadian period in the third dynasty of Ur, and 473 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 3: then the scorpion people images became more widespread during the 474 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: Neo Assyrian and Neo Babylonian times, and in accordance with 475 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 3: their role in Gilgamesh, they're often depicted as servants of 476 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 3: the sun god Shamash, sometimes even bearing the up the 477 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 3: image of the solar disc up on their bodies, and 478 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: in the Neo Assyrian period, the image of the scorpion 479 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 3: person in the form of a little wooden figurine serves 480 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: for apotropaic magic, just like Pazuzu, warding off the malice 481 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: of predatory demons and protecting the bearer's home from harm. 482 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: So it seems interesting that this theme recurs with multiple 483 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: horrible demons we've talkedalked about. Humbaba, Pazuzu, and the scorpion 484 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 3: people are apparently all apotropaic shields at some point. While 485 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: they're like some of the scariest monsters and demons that 486 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 3: people can think of, they're also serving as protective magic. 487 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's so so fascinating to think about this again, 488 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: within the trappings, and even just not in the trappings, 489 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: but in the shadow cultural shadow of monotheistic religions. This 490 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 2: is not something you tend to think about, you know. 491 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: It tends to be the kind of thing that monotheistic 492 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 2: religions have put a lot of effort into squashing, the 493 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: idea that you can turn to any figure except for, 494 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: you know, the supreme God, or maybe certain agents have 495 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: said Supreme God but you certainly can't turn to any 496 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 2: of the villains and ask for their help in matters. 497 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to recruit biels above to protect me against Belisle. 498 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you get into a nuanced conversation about well, 499 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: I mean, one's far worse than the other. It makes 500 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: sense to use the lesser evil against the greater ema. 501 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: All right. Now moving on to a couple of other 502 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 2: demons from ancient Mesopotamia. These are the two we're going 503 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: to discuss here. Are both connected to some really striking imagery. 504 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: Imagery from bass relief slabs found in the ancient Assyrian 505 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: city of Nimrud in what is now Iraq now. Back 506 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: in the ninth century BCE, this city was known as Kalhu, 507 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: and the Assyrian king Ashur Nasirpal the second had them erected, 508 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 2: I think, to either side of the main entrance to 509 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: the Temple of Minurta. According to Black and Green, one 510 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: particular image from these slabs is so evocative that you 511 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: just find it all over the place, and if not, 512 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: you know the actual image like a recreation of it, 513 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: and you'll even find it on the Wikipedia page for 514 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: Ancient Mesopotamian religion. One I've seen it on the cover 515 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 2: of textbooks. I've seen it as like a striking image 516 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: for museum displays that have to do with this time 517 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: and or region. And it basically depicts two figures. One 518 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: is a winged, bearded humanoid with thunderbolts or some sort 519 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: of like Vodra type weapons in both of his hands, 520 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 2: like double bladed, and he's battling or chasing after some 521 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 2: sort of fearsome monster or demon. At least in my eyes, 522 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 2: it's uncertain how many feet this creature walks on, like 523 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: is it rearing up or does it just walk on 524 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: those rear feet, which of course look like the feet 525 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 2: of a bird. This thing is sometimes described as a 526 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: kind of winged lion or a monstrous griffin of some sort. 527 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's got bird talons on its feet. 528 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 3: It looks like but then also clawed for Paul, like 529 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 3: maybe a lion's pause, though I don't know. Actually they 530 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: look more like hands with fingers, and then scales all 531 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: over the body and what looks kind of like a 532 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 3: lion's head, but weirdly, the neck doesn't look very leonine. 533 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: It looks more like a snake rising up like a 534 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 3: you know, venomous snake rising up and hissing with its 535 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: mouth open and then feathery wings. 536 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, without a doubt, it is fearsome looking. And apparently 537 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 2: this is another case where we don't one hundred percent 538 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: know who these entities are. There seem to be some 539 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: best guesses and some some solid hypotheses, but sometimes they're 540 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: just presented as chaos demon and sun god or something 541 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: you know, generic like that British Museum sources. It should 542 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: be pointed out the British Museum this is where you'll 543 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: currently find the slabs, basically just as the god would 544 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 2: have been. The local thunder deity Nenurta. Black and Green 545 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 2: also present the god Adad as a possibility, but seem 546 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: to focus more on this character of Nunurta and what 547 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: is he battling. Well, British Museum sources suggest possibly the 548 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: monster Anzu, also known as the bird Imdigod. This is 549 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: a great lion headed bird that steals the Tablet of 550 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: Destinies from Inki or Inlil and the pictured god then 551 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: slays the monster in order to retrieve this sacred artifact. 552 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: Now you might be wondering, well, okay, what's the deal 553 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 2: with the tablet of destinies. The name like that, it's 554 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: got to be important, and yes, it is important. It 555 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: is essentially the most important binding legal document in the universe. 556 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: According to this mythology, as Black and Green point out, 557 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: the tablet was essentially a tablet of uniform writing impressed 558 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: also with cylinder seals, and it would give the possessor 559 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: power and authority to determine the destinies of the world 560 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 2: everyone in the world, and linked heaven to the underworld. 561 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: So I suppose you could almost think of it as 562 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 2: the world tree in a legal document form, no doubt, 563 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: you know, driving home the importance of writing in the 564 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 2: cultures of ancient Mesopotamia. So normally inlel or Inky holds 565 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: the tablet close to his chest, clutching it as the 566 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 2: guarantee of his rule. You don't want this to fall 567 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: into the wrong hands after all, or the wrong clause, 568 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: because that's exactly what happens, and then Ninuta has to 569 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,240 Speaker 2: reclaim them and then return them to their rightful owner. 570 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: So in and of itself, pretty tremendous story and pretty 571 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 2: great role for a monster or demon. But Black and 572 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: Green also suggested the creature in this image could be 573 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: the great demon, a sag or a Saku. Carol Rose 574 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: describes the sog as a demon of disease who spreads pestilence, 575 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: poisons the earth, and causes wells to dry up. Black 576 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 2: and Green describe a demon so hideous and powerful that 577 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 2: the fish boil alive in the rivers at his approach. Whoa, 578 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: He is the offspring of the sky god, and he 579 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: himself has mate it with the mountains to produce monstrous offspring, 580 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 2: presumably the Stone warriors who follow him into battle. And 581 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: this kind of ties back in with the Zagros Mountains 582 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 2: because they write on one level the defeat of Nnuta. 583 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 2: In this myth of the Asag and the Stones expresses 584 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: the unease felt by the inhabitants of the Mesopotamian Plain 585 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 2: about the inhabitants of the Zagros Mountains. As you'll remember 586 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 2: in the last episode, these mountains to the west were 587 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 2: thought to produce winds of pestilence that would roll down 588 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 2: into the region in question. 589 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and you know when we see like what 590 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 3: actually are the effects that demons, like malevolent demons tend 591 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 3: to produce on human beings. It is often described in 592 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 3: Mesopotamian texts as as like winds sort of weather phenomena 593 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 3: and disease, and disease I think was often thought to 594 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 3: ride on the winds. 595 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will have to add a note here 596 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: that is a common occurrence when we're researching mythologies that 597 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: you'll encounter some sort of like monstrous entities or a 598 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 2: monstrous race and you're like, oh, these are really fascinating. 599 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: I wonder what the origin is, and then you'll look 600 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 2: into it and it's like, oh, it's because one people 601 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 2: distrusted in other people and describe them as monster. One 602 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: people wiped out another people and described them as monsters. So, uh, 603 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 2: you know again it's you know, we see this in 604 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: like certain aspects of Irish mythology if I recall correctly. 605 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 2: So again you know that the shadows of humanity's failings 606 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: certainly color even even some of our more fantastic and 607 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: uh and and captivating myths. But uh anyway, Zog was 608 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: also frequently mentioned in spells against illness, especially head fevers, 609 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: and uh, you know this is this is because I 610 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 2: guess you need to name the demon that you are saying, 611 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: don't come in, don't come in here, head fever demon. 612 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: And in some traditions, the asaku are said to be 613 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: a group of seven demons, not so much an individual 614 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: but a group of seven. 615 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 3: Now, rob one thing we ended up talking about in 616 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 3: the last episode was the sort of proposed timeline of 617 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 3: the changing role of demons in ancient Mesopotamian religions and cosmologies, 618 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 3: and also how that affected views of the afterlife, because 619 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 3: of course, you know, the modern Christian vision of Hell 620 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 3: is one that is populated by demons often, but this 621 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 3: is not necessarily the case with all visions of an 622 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 3: embodied afterlife. You could imagine another world that doesn't really 623 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 3: have any demons running around in it, but at least 624 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 3: some versions of the ancient Mesopotamian underworld of the dead 625 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 3: did have a demonic population. 626 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's sometimes the case that they're not so 627 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: much just evil things that happen to live there, but 628 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: they have a job, they have a role, they're kind 629 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 2: of part of the overall cosmic order. Of course, we 630 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: see shades of this when we consider sort of the 631 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 2: wider loose and you know, it's the amorphous ideas about 632 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 2: even you know, the Christian cosmology and heaven and hell like, okay, 633 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: are the devils imprisoned in hell or do they work there, 634 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: like if they torment human souls there, in which some 635 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: of these beliefs would would have. What have you believe then? 636 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 2: Is it like who signs their paycheck? Is that a 637 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: Satan thing? Is that a God thing? 638 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 3: Like? 639 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 2: How does it work? You know, I don't know, big, big, 640 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: tough problems of religion and theology. Certainly you get into 641 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 2: if you follow this thread enough. 642 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 3: The idea of a hell with demons working in it, 643 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 3: by the way, is as we talked about it in 644 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 3: the last episode, that's not in the Hebrew Bible at all. 645 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 3: That does emerge in Christian theology, but it's actually that 646 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 3: specific idea with demons working in hell to torture the 647 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 3: damned is not even in the Christian New Testament. 648 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it looks good. It looks really cool in 649 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: a wood cut, but you know, for my money, you 650 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 2: can kind of leave that on the table. Anyway, This 651 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 2: comes to a particular type of demon though in the 652 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 2: ancient Mesopotamian world that did have a job. So the 653 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 2: demons in question here are the Gala or the Galu 654 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: underworld demons charged with dragging people off to the underworld, 655 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 2: they were said to number seven, and there were numerous 656 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 2: spells that might be used to ward them away. So 657 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 2: there's another case where at least some spells are saying 658 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: like no, no, no, do not come here, Gala, We 659 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: do not want you. Do not drag me into the underworld. 660 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: When the goddess in Anna returns from her descent into 661 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 2: the underworld, she's accompanied by the Gala. And while again 662 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: they're generally perceived as horrific beings with a horrific purpose 663 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 2: from our standpoint, they're also not necessarily evil, just more 664 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 2: of a harsh part of the cosmic order, and so 665 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 2: they could also be invoked in a positive sense. So 666 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 2: there are references to both good Gala and evil God, 667 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 2: you know, like good Gala, come on in, Evil Goala 668 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 2: stay away, and and yeah, so I did wonder, like 669 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 2: you know how much of this is about individual natures 670 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 2: and or just their intentions, like just saying like Gala, 671 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 2: if you're here for me, please keep on moving. But 672 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 2: if you're here for souls that are not supposed to 673 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 2: be here, for ghosts or whatever, then come on come 674 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 2: on in. Do you do your job now? You might wonder, well, 675 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 2: how often does this occur? Like, what are the stories? 676 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 2: And there is one key story where they have a 677 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: major role, and it is the story of Ananna and 678 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: her descent into the underworld, which if I am understanding correctly, 679 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 2: we don't necessarily know why she goes into the underworld. 680 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 2: I think there have been a number of hypotheses as to, 681 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 2: you know, why this would be. And certainly you can 682 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: look at other descent into the underworld stories from other 683 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 2: traditions that come later and you know, get some idea about, 684 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 2: you know, why this would work. But it's essentially she 685 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 2: finds herself in a situation where she cannot leave without 686 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 2: some one taking her place, and so what did the 687 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 2: Gala do? Will they venture back to our world? And 688 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 2: they drag her young husband, Dumuzi, the shepherd god, away 689 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 2: in the night, so she's allowed to go free. But 690 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 2: Dumuzie dies and becomes a god of the underworld. And 691 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 2: there are accounts of the sheep skin that he slept 692 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: in was found empty, you know, because they dragged him 693 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 2: out of it in the night and took him off 694 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 2: to the underworld. But you know, he's a god, so 695 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 2: it gets to be a god in the underworld, and 696 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: you know, he ends up. I was reading some descriptions 697 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 2: in Black and Green where they talk about I believe 698 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,959 Speaker 2: it was Black and Green talking about like his role 699 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 2: in the underworld is kind of guardian, kind of a shepherd, 700 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,280 Speaker 2: and then he's you know, and then we have these 701 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 2: these gala around him as well. And this kind of 702 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 2: reminded me a little bit of what we're presented with 703 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 2: with Goser and Ghostbusters. You know, some sort of entity 704 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,839 Speaker 2: that is supposed to you know, that is attended by 705 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 2: monstrous beings and perhaps has some role regarding the flow 706 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 2: in and out of the underworld, which you know in Ghostbusters, 707 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 2: the Ghostbusters have interrupted this, they have messed with things 708 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 2: with their ghostbusting and ghost capturing technology. 709 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 3: Ah, that's very good. But you know, I was actually 710 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 3: thinking of another comparison that tied into some older episodes 711 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 3: we did, and that would be while acknowledging many of 712 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 3: the differences, some similarities there with the story of Osiris, 713 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 3: who dies, goes into the underworld, and you know, is 714 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 3: sometimes I think dubiously called like a god who dies 715 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 3: and rises again. O Cyrus actually stays in the underworld, 716 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 3: so sort of stays in this dead state, but is 717 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 3: transformed and in a way transforms the underworld himself becomes 718 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 3: an authority there. 719 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I'm not sure. There's a lot 720 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 2: deeper one could go into, looking at like what does 721 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 2: it mean to have a shepherd God become a major 722 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 2: figure in the afterlife? And what does it say Tatus's 723 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 2: line up too, with the emergence of this concept of 724 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 2: a shadowy afterlife and our expectations for it, and the 725 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 2: things we might want for ourselves in it, and the 726 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 2: things we can do here for ourselves or for our 727 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 2: loved ones. Certainly this idea of the divine as a 728 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: shepherd does not go away, and it's with us still 729 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 2: today in some traditions. 730 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 3: All right, well, you know what I promised in the 731 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 3: last episode that we were going to come back and 732 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 3: talk about Humbaba some more. But it seems like we're 733 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 3: really out of time on this series, So maybe we'll 734 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 3: have to return to Humbaba in the future, and in 735 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 3: fact to the general category of ancient Mesopotamian demons. There's 736 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 3: some whole other tangents I got really interested in but 737 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 3: didn't have time to fully develop or research, maybe having 738 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 3: to do with some connections to the Asiatic lion so 739 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,840 Speaker 3: maybe we'll come back and do more ancient Mesopotamian demons 740 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 3: in the future. 741 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm totally downd for that. There's a lot we 742 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 2: could discuss, and really there's even a lot more with 743 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 2: the epic of Gilgamesh that we eat into. Yeah, we've 744 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 2: covered aspects of it in the past, but it's certainly 745 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 2: something we could do a deep dive on. All right, 746 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 2: let's go ahead and close it out. Then, just a reminder, 747 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and 748 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 2: culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We 749 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 2: don't always talk about demons and monsters and so forth, 750 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 2: but it is October, so you're going to find mostly that, 751 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 2: if not only that, during the month of October, and then, 752 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 2: like you know, thirty forty percent of the time the 753 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 2: rest of the year. On Fridays, we set aside most 754 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 2: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 755 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema. You'll again find those episodes on Fridays, 756 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 2: and during the month of October they are all going 757 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 2: to be you know, horror and Halloween related. 758 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 759 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 760 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 761 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello. 762 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 3: You can email us at contact stuff to Blow Your 763 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 764 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 765 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 766 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.