1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: of I Heeart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: My normal co host, Robert Lamb is out of town 5 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: this week, so I am bringing you an interview episode. 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: It's an interview with Brandon Fibbs, who is the host 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: of a new podcast on the I Heeart Radio network 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: called Nine Days in July, which is as a profile 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: of each of the nine days of the Apollo eleven 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: mission in nineteen sixty nine, the mission that landed on 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: the Moon. I've started listening to this podcast and a 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: few episodes in and I'm hooked. I think Brandon is 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: doing an excellent job with this and it goes into 14 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: some really incredible depth. So I had a conversation with 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: Brandon about the Apollo eleven mission and about this podcast 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: that he's put together. It was a really fun conversation 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: and I think you're really going to enjoy it. Before 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: we jump into the interview here, let's just play the 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: trailer for Nine Days in July to give you a 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: taste of things to come. Ignition sequenced. You think you 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: know the story of Apollo eleven. But you don't what 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: you know is only a small part of the most 23 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 1: profound human achievement in history. I believe that this nation 24 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: should commit itself to achieving the goal of landing a 25 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth. 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Less than three weeks after launching the first American into space, 27 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: a trip that lasted only fifteen minutes, the President went 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: before Congress and charged the country with landing on the 29 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: Moon before the end of the decade. And why so 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: that we could wallop the Russians, he d look. This 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: was one of the most tumultuous eras in American history. 32 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: The profoundly unpopular Vietnam War was raging on without an 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: end in sight. Back home, at the Democratic Convention, thousands 34 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: of demonstrators clashed violently with police. They said they were 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: there to protest the war, poverty, racism, and other social aliens. 36 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: Some of them were also determined to provoke a confrontation. 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: The United States seemed to be coming apart at the 38 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: seems America needed a reason to reach for a greatness 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: beyond our misfortunes. We needed Apollo god Spade. Pulling off 40 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: Kennedy's audacious vision required hundreds of thousands of people, tens 41 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: of thousands of companies, and tens of billions of dollars 42 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: to go to the moon and discontay and do the 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: other things, not because they are easy, because they are 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: on Using never before heard mission audio, I'm going to 45 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,559 Speaker 1: take you through the family lives that fueled the astronauts, 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: the political intrigue that cleared the way, and the collective 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: drive of the country that pushed us into the future. 48 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: This is Nine Days in July. New episodes arrive every 49 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: Thursday through February six. Listen to Nine Days in July 50 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcasts, or 51 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Well, without any further delay, 52 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: I think we're going to jump right into my conversation 53 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: with Brandon Fibbs. Hey, Brandon, welcome to the show. Thank 54 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: you so very much. So I guess first of all, 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: would you like to talk a little bit about your 56 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: own background, maybe introduce yourself and talk about how you 57 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: got so interested in spaceflight. Yeah, my name is Brandon Phibbs. 58 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: I am uh. I've spent the last roughly ten fifteen 59 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: years in film and television. I actually began as a 60 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: film critic writing about other people's films and television shows, 61 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: and then realized, I want people to write about mine. 62 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go get into production myself. So moved to 63 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: l A and stumbled into science documentaries. I went to 64 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: l A like everyone wants to go you want to 65 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: make big movies, and my first production was Cosmos of 66 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: Space Time Odyssey with Neilo grass Tyson. And then I 67 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: realized working on that, I don't want to this is 68 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff I want to do. I want 69 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: to I want to light people on fire for for 70 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: amazing science. And so I was able to buy and 71 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: large work mostly in science documentaries. Worked with Morgan Freeman 72 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: on Through the Wormhole for a couple of seasons, and 73 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: the Story of God with Morgan Freeman, and a number 74 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: of Science Channel specials and whatnot. And that's that's really 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: where um, that's really what you know. I found a 76 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: lot of tremendous satisfaction in that. And then recently I've 77 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: kind of been migrating to podcasts. There's just so many 78 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: ways to tell extraordinary science and history stories. So I'm 79 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: one of these people who if I could go back 80 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: in time and tell my young self Hey, Brandon, here 81 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: are the things. They're gonna light you on fire, and 82 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna be passionate about. When you're an adult, you're 83 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: gonna probably want to change your life trajectory right now. 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: You're gonna want to change the stuff you studied, and 85 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: rather than study English literature and filmmaking, you're gonna want 86 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: to study science. Um, but I didn't. And so now 87 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm at the place in my life where I'm like, Okay, 88 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: I if I could go back in time to be 89 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: a scientist, I would. But all of my all of 90 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: my work, experience and stuff is in in television documentaries 91 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: and whatnot and now podcasting. And so let's find the 92 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: Vinn diagram of life where science and entertainment overlap. And 93 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: let's drop right down in that little section there, and 94 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: let's make amazing things that popularize science and basically, you know, 95 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: let's find extraordinary stories that are gonna warp people's minds. 96 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: And uh so that's kind of my like life goal 97 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: these days. Wow, I can really identify with you there. 98 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: Actually I also am from a humanity's background, but like 99 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: later in life, got the science bug and in some 100 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: ways kind of wished I've done things different, but also 101 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, it helps to be able to bring 102 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: that kind of storytelling sensibility to science as well well. 103 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: And the and the longer I've done it, the more 104 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: I've realized, and the more like actual scientists that I 105 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: speak with an interview or befriend, the more I realized 106 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: that this sort of advocacy is so critical for what 107 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: they do. The there's they're busy being scientists, and so 108 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, it needs people like us to say, look 109 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: world at what the incredible things that they are doing. Yeah. Absolutely, 110 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: Now I know I've read that you also have experience 111 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: as a pilot though were you were piloting an S 112 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: three Viking? Is that right? Not a pilot? So to 113 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: use to use a film metaphor, um, I was a 114 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: combination of Goose from Top Gun, the guy who sat 115 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: behind the pilot in three, and I was a combination 116 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: with jones Uh with jones E, the guy from the 117 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: Hunt for October who was calling crazy ivans. My job 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: was to hunt submarines. So the S three Viking was 119 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: a patrol aircraft, a sub hunting aircraft, and we would 120 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,239 Speaker 1: fly in the ocean and we would drop Sona buoys 121 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: and these SONA buoys would release hydrophones and we could 122 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: deploy them to various depths, and we would listen for submarines, 123 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: and based on the mathematical logarithmic transcripts that would come 124 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: up on my screen, I could tell you, if I 125 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: was very lucky, you know exactly what kind of submarine 126 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: we were flying over, whether it was turning left, turning right, diving, ascending, whatever, 127 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: and sometimes specifically specific submarine we were flying over, so 128 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: that I was I was the backseater. Okay, Now, uh, 129 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: how did you end up doing this? Like a lot 130 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: of these people who ended up in the Apollo program, 131 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: did you long have a passion for for flight? I 132 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: think that, you know, like any red blooded American kid, 133 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, you grow up loving dinosaurs and space and 134 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: and flying and these sorts of things. I actually, when 135 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: I got out of I had started college and then realized, 136 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna need some more money for college 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, and I had taken an internship. 138 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: I've done an internship in Washington, d C. Congressional internship 139 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: working for my congressman on Capitol Hill. And I was 140 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: just surrounded by military guys and just all kinds of 141 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: different things, and I thought, hey, this, this looks fantastic. 142 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: This would be a way to kind of give back 143 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: to my country but also get what I kind of 144 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: need to further my life and my me for school 145 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: and whatnot. And so it was actually there that I 146 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: kind of came up with the idea joined the military, 147 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: and then spent most of my uh, most of my 148 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: time in the military was actually overseas. It was in Sicily. 149 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Spent three three years in Sicily and three extraordinary years, 150 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: I should say, and just spent all of that time 151 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: in Europe and traveling all over Europe and even West Africa, 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: and it was an extraordinary thing. But yeah, I thought 153 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: at the time actually that I might be pursuing um 154 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: flight and then perhaps even hey, lot, what if I should, 155 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, should I try to become an astronaut? And 156 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: then I just realized, and this kind of goes back 157 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: to what I was saying earlier in terms of like 158 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: I should have been a scientist. There are also certain 159 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 1: things that I realized I can't do that my mind's 160 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: not exactly made for. And a lot of that is 161 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: complex math and and some really complex you know, physics 162 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, the kind of things I would 163 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: actually need to become an astronaut. And uh so I 164 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, let's just stick with the let's stick 165 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: with the story telling, and uh tell the stories of 166 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: these people who can do those complex math and stuff 167 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: like that you can't do, Brandon. That's interesting. Well, so 168 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: to turn to that story, I guess can can you 169 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: start off just by giving us the top line on 170 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: nine days in July? Tell us you know, you know what, 171 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: what do you want people to know if they remember 172 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: one sentence about this podcast? Yeah, my my friend and 173 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: our executive producer, one of our executive producers, Andrew Jacobs, 174 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: came up with the idea and he basically said, we 175 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: are so familiar with the sort of sound bites of 176 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: Apollo eleven. We know like some sound bites from launch, 177 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: we know a lot of sound bites from the landing, 178 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: but that's about it, Like nobody knows the story of 179 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: Apollo eleven. And so our idea was, it's a nine 180 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: day mission. Let's have nine episodes, and each episode is 181 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: going to focus as real time as possible on each 182 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: day of the mission, and let's tell that story. Now. 183 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: Of course, most of what goes on in a spacecraft 184 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: traveling to and from the Moon is incomprehensible techno babble, 185 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: and so once you strip that out, the is a 186 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: lot less story going on, particularly on those transit days. 187 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: And so we knew that we needed to tell more 188 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: than just that story. And so the idea was that 189 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: we came up with, Okay, let's tell the story that 190 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: is going to contextualize everything that we're going to be 191 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: hearing on that spacecraft. Let's tell the biographies of all 192 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: of these astronauts. Let's learn who the people in mission 193 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: control are. Let's talk to scientists about what the moon 194 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: is made of and how it was formed. Let's learn 195 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: about the political dynamics of the space race and and 196 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: and communism and fighting against Russia to to beat everyone 197 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: to the moon. Let's let's take all of these stories 198 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: and tell these stories and bounce back and forth between 199 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: them and the spacecraft, so that when you walk away 200 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: after nine episodes, you not only understand intimately what happened 201 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: on this mission, and you know these guys who worked 202 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: on this in a really profoundly human way, but you 203 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: also come away with a much greater understanding of how 204 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: we got to where where we were when we went 205 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: to the moon, who everyone was and and and what 206 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: the political sort of impetus was to to do it 207 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: in the first place. Yeah, it's a really engrossing approach. 208 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: I'm a couple of episodes in and I've been really 209 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: enjoying the show so far. So maybe we should uh 210 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: turn to these these figures like Neil Armstrong, buzz Aldrin 211 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: and Michael Collins. Can you give a brief sketch of 212 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: of who these three astronauts were? Yeah, So Neil Armstrong 213 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: and a lot of people who didn't kind of know 214 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: more of his story were kind of introduced to him 215 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: recently in the film First Man last year, and that 216 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: was a really good kind of examination. You know. I 217 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: had a lot of friends who who said they they 218 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: found Neil Armstrong really inaccessible because Ryan Gosling's portrayal was 219 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 1: such that he kind of kept the audience at a distance, 220 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: at an arm's length, and didn't really he didn't feel human. 221 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: And what I told them is that's who Neil Armstrong was. 222 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: Neil Armstrong and buzz Aldren were kind of what we 223 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: what we would have described at the time as squares. 224 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: They were sort of very straight laced and uptie eight 225 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: and and it's one of the things that ruined, frankly, 226 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: both of their marriages in the long run. Um. They 227 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: were just so singularly focused on what they did and 228 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: their jobs, um that they to the exclusion of everything else. 229 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: And then you have Mike Collins, who was jovial and 230 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: and quick witted, and he was the jokester, he was 231 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: the prankster, he was always he was the one that 232 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: you'd want to go have a beer with. And and 233 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: none of these guys actually even really got along. I mean, 234 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: they got along just fine, but they weren't friends. They 235 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: didn't have some sort of like you know, off campus 236 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: sort of relationship in which they hung out. Um. Any 237 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: of the pictures that we have in Life magazine and 238 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: stuff like that showing them all hanging out was completely created, 239 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: fabricated for you know, the magazine. It was just like 240 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: to sell copy. But what we needed were three men 241 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: who are at the top of their intellectual game, who 242 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: worked together, who are professionals, who are the best people 243 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: suited for this particular job. And that's what these three 244 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: guys were. They all came, they were all aviators, they 245 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: all came from flight experience. Neil was in the Navy, 246 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: the other two guys were in the Air Force, and 247 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: they all came out of the Korean War, and some 248 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: of them from test flight experience, and just basically pushing 249 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: the boundaries to do the most extraordinary things possible until 250 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: the most extraordinary thing human beings have ever done was 251 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: presented to them and dropped in their laps. Now we 252 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: know that it wasn't just the three astronauts, of course, 253 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about the cathedral, about 254 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: the flight controllers and the mission planners and all of 255 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: the you know, the thousands of of support figures who 256 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: made the mission possible. You bet you know. And I'll 257 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: just keep doing what I'm about to do just because 258 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: I think it's a really a really accessible way for 259 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: people to identify what's going on. But you know, if 260 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: you've ever seen the movie Apollo thirteen, you know that 261 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: did a wonderful job of kind of setting up. As 262 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: much time as you spent in the spacecraft, you also 263 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: spent in mission control and mission control what had four 264 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: rotating teams of two dozen people at all of these consoles, 265 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: and every console oversaw a different aspect of the flight 266 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: at different aspect of the spacecraft, or you know, you'd 267 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: even have doctors who are monitoring the health of the 268 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: astronauts themselves, and these shifts would just these guys would 269 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: just rotate through the ships. But even within mission control, 270 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: you had whole offices, whole squadrons of people who are 271 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: supporting each one of those consoles so large, you had hundreds, 272 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: if not thousands of people. Technically, especially thousands when you 273 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: consider that all of the companies that built the spacecraft 274 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: and did all these things were we're only a phone 275 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: call away. You have thousands of people supporting the mission 276 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: every single day, UM, and it was an extraordinary Basically, 277 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: in many ways, some of the people in mission control 278 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: will call were referred to as the co pilots of 279 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: Apollo eleven, and that's in many ways very true. They 280 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: were monitoring every aspect of the flight. They were there 281 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: for every aspect of the flight. And yet the only 282 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: voice you ever hear, however, UM on any of these 283 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: tapes is Capcom. Because none of these mission controllers talked 284 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: to the spacecraft. That would just get too confusing, So 285 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: everyone went through CAPCOM, the capsule communicator, who was also 286 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: an astronaut so that he understood everything that was going 287 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: on in mission control, and he intimately understood what it 288 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: was like to be on the inside of that spacecraft. 289 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: And so he was the funnel through which all the 290 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: communications ran. Uh. Yeah, you can imagine how chaotic it 291 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: would have gotten otherwise. Um. Now, among the flight controllers, 292 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: one of the strange facts mentioned in one of your 293 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: early episodes is that, uh in that room, the average 294 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: age was about twenty six. Why so young? What's going 295 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: on there? So you have space flights and new science 296 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: right like we we we've have these visions of like 297 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: the Mercury program and the Gemini program and then the 298 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: Apollo program. There was not a whole lot of years 299 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: between all of those programs. Um, you know, you're talking 300 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: less than ten years of human space fight. By the 301 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: time we landed on the Moon, we'd only been going 302 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: into space for a couple of years. And more than that. 303 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: At the things that got us there, the things that 304 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: enabled us to do it were computers, and computers were 305 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: brand spanking new. And so it's just like today if 306 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: you um, you know, when we were growing up, our 307 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: parents who were always telling us, hey, how do you 308 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: stop the flashing twelve, you know, twelve o'clock on the VCR, kids, 309 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: and need you to fix that for me. And the 310 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: reason they were calling on the kids is because it 311 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: was effortless for young people to integrate with technology. And 312 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: these days, of course, it's you know, how do I 313 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: fix Facebook or Instagram's acting up or you know, TikTok 314 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: or whatever. You ask your kids, or you ask your grandkids, 315 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: because they just get it intuitively. Um. And that's exactly 316 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: what it was like here. Younger people were the ones 317 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: who understood computers. Computers were brand spanking new, and so basically, 318 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: if you want to go to space with new technology, 319 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: you need people who understand that new technology, and so 320 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: mission control had was made up. Like you said, twenty 321 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: six years old was the average age, and for some 322 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: of these guys, for a great many of these guys, 323 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: it was their very first job, read out of college, 324 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: and they're thrust with, like you know, into this being 325 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: responsible for the most extraordinary thing humans have ever done. Yeah, 326 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to imagine, actually. Um. Now, another 327 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: thing that you talked about in the podcast is the 328 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: fact that, of course uh NASA was a very male 329 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: dominated work culture at the time, but You also mentioned 330 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: the story of these like math experts who would check 331 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: the work of the engineers, many of them female mathematicians, 332 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: sometimes called the time computer rests like Poppy north Cut, 333 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: can can you talk about that experience? Poppy north Cut 334 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: was one of my favorite interviews on this show. And 335 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: unfortunately time constraints and different things have have trimmed what 336 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: you're going to hear from her. But Poppy was Poppy 337 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: needs her own podcast. She was someone who yeah, she 338 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: she got degrees in mathematics, and she was brought in 339 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: to check the men's work. And of course, you can 340 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: imagine in this time frame in the mid sixties and 341 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: in late sixties, there were a lot of guys who 342 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: did exactly think they needed their work checked and if 343 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: it did that, it certainly didn't need to be checked 344 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: by this young twenty seven year old blonde in a 345 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: miniskirt sort of situation. And the amount of sexism that 346 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: she faced. There's a moment that I mentioned the podcast 347 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: of I believe it was in the ABC anchor was 348 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: interviewing her and he specifically said that, like, what's it 349 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: like being a beautiful young woman in a mini skirt 350 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: around here among all these men, and it's she persevered 351 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: like she she had this mindset of I recognize that 352 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: if I'm going to make a difference, I have to 353 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: push through this. I have to be stronger than this. 354 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: I have to tolerate some of this. The stuff I 355 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: don't have to tolerate, I'm gonna call out. But she 356 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: was extraordinarily important, and not only Apollo levin getting them 357 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: to and from the Moon. Her calculations helped them with 358 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: all of their orbits and getting out of orbit and 359 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: returning back to Earth. She also played a key component 360 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: in Apollo thirteen when they had so many problems going 361 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: on their spacecraft. She was there for many of the 362 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: Apollo missions. Now now she is a advocate. She became 363 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: a lawyer. She got out of doing science, then became 364 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: a lawyer, and she advocates for women's rights and feminism. 365 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: And she took on the Houston UH Police and the 366 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: Houston Fire Department and made sure that women could integrate 367 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: into those uh those institutions. And even today she is 368 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: just on the front lines of women's rights issues um 369 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: as a lawyer and advocate. And she has, like I said, 370 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: she needs her own podcast. She's extraordinary, all right, we 371 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: need to take a quick break, but we will be 372 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: right back with more than and we're back all right. 373 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: Maybe we should talk a bit about the hardware and 374 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: the technology that made the mission possible. One of the 375 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: first things I think that would deserve attention here is 376 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: the Saturn five rocket, which I remember I don't recall 377 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: which astronaut it was, but it was somebody who had 378 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: been lifted up on it describing it as a living, 379 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: breathing organism Underneathan, Uh, what what's um? What? What makes 380 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: the Saturn five so special in the history of space exploration? 381 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: The Saturn five is the largest, heaviest, most powerful rocket 382 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: human beings have ever created. NASA is currently building the SLS, 383 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: the Space Launch System. This is the rocket that's going 384 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: to be returning us to the Moon in a couple 385 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: of years and eventually setting us on a path for Mars. 386 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: But until that is built and tested and first run, 387 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: the Saturn five remains, fifty years later, the largest, most powerful, 388 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: heaviest launch vehicle humans have ever built. We we've nothing 389 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: comes close to touching it yet. UM, And it was 390 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: something that was designed and built UM was the brainchild 391 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: UM of Werner von Braun An ex Nazi. He was 392 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: one of the Nazis that, uh, the Americans kind of 393 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: grabbed out of Nazi Germany when when Germany was falling 394 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: after World War Two, we brought our thousands of Nazis 395 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: as part of an Operation paper Clip. So Operation paper 396 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: Clip was this was this government program in which we 397 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: seized thousands of of ex Nazi scientists and engineers, brought 398 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: them back to the United States and basically said, hey, 399 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: you were making some pretty devastating technology like the V 400 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: two rockets and stuff like that that was raining down 401 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: fire all over London and lots of other parts of Europe, 402 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: and hey, we want you to make those for us too. 403 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: And a lot of these guys weren't they weren't died 404 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: in the woold Nazis. They were conscripted. They were you know, 405 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: told to build this or else sort of situations. And 406 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: once they were out of that, they were able to say, hey, 407 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: you know what I what I really want to do 408 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: is build rockets to send people into space. And the 409 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: government US government wasn't interested in that. They wanted to 410 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: be able to, you know, after World War Two, we 411 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: suddenly found ourselves in a Cold War with Russia. We 412 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: just a couple of years later stumbled into a second 413 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: war again with within Korea, and so basically they just 414 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: wanted these guys to design missiles. But it wasn't until 415 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: sput Nick suddenly kind of changed the dynamic. And once 416 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: Russia launched sput Nick and we suddenly realized. And then 417 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: Sputnik two, just four weeks later launched a dog into space. 418 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: The dog's name was like It, which is also the 419 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: name of my dog. Um. That dog into space suddenly 420 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: made people realize, oh wait, that's possible to launch like 421 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: living creatures into space. And then suddenly people started turning 422 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: to people like Verna von Braun and others and saying, okay, 423 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: you have permission now start designing real giant, big rockets, 424 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: not just missiles. And so the Saturn five is is yeah, 425 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: it's the most complex thing that we've ever built. It's 426 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: the reason we got to the Moon. Well, I want 427 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: to come back to some of those political implications and 428 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: just a little bit, but to go on with some 429 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: of the more some of the other technology from the mission. 430 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: So we've got the Saturn five rocket, and that is 431 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 1: that's sort of the launch delivery program that that NASA 432 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: came up with to get us to the moon was 433 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: only one of several options that were considered, right, well, 434 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: what were what was some of the thinking about how 435 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: to get to the moon and back, and what were 436 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: the other options that we could have tried. Well, so 437 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: they had a number of different options, and the first 438 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: one was the one that's been popularized in every silly 439 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties sort of sci fi movie you've ever seen, 440 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: and that is you see, you see like sort of 441 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: a prototypical rocket and the rocket is fully formed and 442 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: it lands on some on the moon or some outer 443 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: space planet. People climb out of it and do their thing, 444 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: climb back into it, and it launches back off again. 445 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: But you you can imagine, you've, you know, everyone's seen 446 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: pictures of the Saturn five, something that big, going in 447 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: one piece, going into space in one complete piece, and 448 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: then landing on the Moon again like something like that's 449 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: never gonna happen. The weight would just be prohibitive. The 450 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: size is just so big. And yet people consider that 451 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: that was one of the options, and then then they 452 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: just realized there's no way that Saturn five in that 453 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: size and weight is even going to get out of 454 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: orbit much less land on the Moon and get back 455 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: off of it. Another option was, okay, we launch multiple 456 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: launches with all of the various little spacecraft and once 457 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: they're in Earth orbit, we docked them all together and 458 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: we do all of these things and then we take 459 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: off for the Moon. Um and that was also seen 460 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: as clearly cost prohibitive. We have numerous launches, blah blah blah. 461 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: What they ultimately came down to was lunar orbit rendezvous, 462 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: and that is, let's put everything in a single rocket, 463 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: let's make it build big enough to launch into orbit, 464 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: and then let's do all of our docking that's needed 465 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: around the Moon. And that terrified people at the time 466 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: because at the time we came up with that idea, 467 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: we hadn't we hadn't even docked anyone in orbit around Earth. 468 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: Gemini hadn't even yet achieved that. So everyone was really 469 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: terrified of hundreds of thousands of miles away doing all 470 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: of this docking, so far away from any sort of 471 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: help that could be rendered if they were closer to home. 472 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: So that kind of terrified people. But ultimately they realized 473 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: cost effective, size effective, gas, gas fuel, everything just made 474 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: that that one made the most sense. And so they 475 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of went with it, and that's how we came 476 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: up with lunar orbit rendezvous. Now, do you think that 477 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: the lunar orbit rendezvous was really the only way we 478 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: could have reached the Moon and the time frame we 479 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: did it was very likely the only way we could 480 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: have reached the Moon in the timeframe we did. Yeah, 481 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily the only way we could have done it. 482 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: Um And in fact, there were One of the other 483 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: options I didn't mention was that option of basically launching 484 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: certain elements of your mission, landing those remotely without human 485 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: beings on the surface of the Moon, then launching your 486 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: crew and then they land on the Moon and what 487 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: they need is already there waiting for them. That version 488 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: is already what we're pretty much thinking about. In terms 489 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: of going to Mars. The recognition that a long trip 490 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: to Mars, the long you know it's gonna take, I 491 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: believe it's like six months to get to Mars. You'd 492 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: have to be on the Martian surface for more than 493 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: a year before this the planets were to align for 494 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: you to even come back again for another like six 495 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: month trip. So there's like when human beings go to Mars. 496 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: It's going to be a year's long effort, and that 497 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: can't all everything, all that infrastructure, all of that hardware, 498 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: can't be contained in a single space craft, and so 499 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: the idea is that is going to have to be 500 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: requiring multiple launches. You get to Mars, you start generating 501 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: new rocket fuel for the return from the Martian soil. 502 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: This is all being done automatically, uh, with robots and whatnot. 503 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: And then so by the time that the Martian astronauts 504 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: actually land and start doing their exploration, they have habitats 505 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: set up and everything has been going on. That was 506 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: an option that people considered for the Moon as well, 507 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: but people realized Kennedy said, by the end of the decade, 508 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: I want people walking on the Moon by the end 509 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: of the decade, and not just walking on the Moon. 510 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: They have to come home safely, and to do that 511 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: they this mission, uh profile made the most sense. Yeah, 512 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: now thinking about that, that impetus from Kennedy. Of course, 513 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: the moon landing was, you know, this great scientific achievement, 514 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: but your show frequently stresses the political motivations of the 515 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: Apollo program. You know that it was framed in the 516 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: words of Kennedy, I think in the ninete that he 517 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: said it was a contest between freedom, which for him 518 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: obviously meant the United States and tier any, which for 519 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: him in the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc. How 520 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: do you think this framing of the uh of of 521 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: space exploration as a kind of um, kind of a 522 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: war mobilization almost How did that affect how the Apollo 523 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: program progressed? And do you think the same achievements within 524 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: the same time frame would have been possible if it 525 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 1: were just treated as a kind of peaceful scientific project. 526 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: More the way we think of space exploration today, I 527 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: don't think we would have gone to the Moon if 528 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: we had done it just for peaceful purposes, uh, in 529 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: the exact same way, for the exact same reason that 530 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: we haven't gone to the moon since, for the exact 531 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: same reason that we are not on the moon now 532 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: that you know, for the exact same reason that we've 533 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: tried to go to the Moon in the past and 534 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: everything fell short that we've tried to you know, do 535 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: moon missions um and those fell apart. We need the 536 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: competition aspect is the thing that drove us. And you know, 537 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,479 Speaker 1: you when you grow up, you have this kind of 538 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: simplistic view of the space program. And you know, when 539 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: you're a kid, you have a simplistic view of lots 540 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: of things. And of course it was just this, yeah, okay, 541 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: there's the Russian element of this, but we did this 542 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: for science and exploration and blah blah blah, No we didn't. 543 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: And Kennedy's tapes that were you're gonna hear on episode seven, 544 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: in which we focus specifically on the space race itself. 545 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: There are tapes that didn't come uh to light until 546 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: two thousand and one of Kennedy in the Oval Office 547 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: in the White House talking to various scientific advisors in 548 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: the head of NASA, James Webb, and basically and he says, 549 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: I don't care about space, guys, I don't I just 550 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: want to beat the Russians. Give me something that will 551 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: allow us to embarrass the Russians and and elevate America. Um, 552 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: and let's do that. But I don't care what it is. 553 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: I don't care about space only in so far as 554 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: it's a political gamemanship sort of thing. And of course, 555 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: for most of us growing up, Kennedy is this shining example, 556 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: this this cheerleader for space, and he was that publicly, privately, 557 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: he didn't give a damn about it. He just wanted 558 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: to eat the Russians. Wow. Uh, Now, so you're talking 559 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: about something that would be a sort of symbolic achievement, 560 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: like you that would show the world that we were 561 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: better than the Russians, That would you know, something to 562 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: to efface them. But I wonder also, I mean, what's 563 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: the role of of uh people trying to to imagine 564 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: forward into future military conflicts, because obviously they would have 565 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 1: had in their recent memory UH air superiority as a 566 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: decisive factor in World War two and and that kind 567 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: of thing. Were they thinking also along those lines? But 568 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: just going to the next level up? Sure? I mean, 569 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: the Cold War was at its essence, space was basically 570 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: just the example that we used to demonstrate to the 571 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: world and to the Soviet Union that we were more 572 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: technologically advanced and more powerful. It was all about technology. 573 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: It was to to you know, do it in a 574 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: kind of a crude sort of way. It was a 575 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: measuring contest, using technology as a yardstick and basically saying, 576 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: you know, hey, our technology is bigger than yours, our 577 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: technology is better than yours, and we just proved it. Um. 578 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: But of course, out of all of that, you know, 579 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: there's so much US military hardware that we used to 580 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: this day that came out of the Apollo program, be 581 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: at the rockets, or the satellites, the spy satellites, the 582 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, there's so much that that it wouldn't be 583 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: here if it wasn't for the Space program. There's also 584 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: a ton of personal stuff. I mean, you wouldn't have 585 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: your cell phones, and you wouldn't have your GPS and 586 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: satellite TV and and half of the medical advances that 587 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: have been made over the last fifty years and stuff 588 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: like that also came out of the space program. And 589 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: you certainly wouldn't have your laptop. So it's not like 590 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: there wasn't it was a purely military effort, But the 591 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: military was more than happy to take the things that 592 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: NASA learned going to the Moon and say, hey, how 593 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: can we use these for for war fighting? We're gonna 594 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: be able to piggyback um a lot of stuff off 595 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: of this and uh and be able to use it 596 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: against our enemies should should have ever become necessary. Yeah, 597 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: I know several things you mentioned in the podcast to 598 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: make it clear how in meshed the space program was 599 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties with the Armed forces. I remember 600 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: initially a problem with I don't remember which of the 601 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: three astronauts from eleven it was, but that one of 602 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: them was not eligible to apply to be an astronaut 603 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: because they were not active duty military. Is that correct? Yeah, 604 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: that was Neil Armstrong. He got out of the military 605 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: and when he became a test pilot UM and was 606 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: still working with the military and flying all these military aircraft, 607 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: but he was out of the Navy by that point. 608 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: He got out of the Navy when he left Korea 609 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: after his years spent in the Korean War. And Yeah, 610 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: at that time when Mercury, the Project Mercury, and even 611 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: into the early days of Gemini, they were only taking 612 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: military UM personnel because there were so few people they needed, 613 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, pilots who were on the cutting edge of things, 614 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: and you didn't really have civilian pilots flying cutting edge aircraft. 615 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: So it made sense at that time to pull people 616 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: from the military. That's NASA still does it to this day. Um, 617 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: it's not. It's not restricted to the military anymore. Uh. 618 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: And you certainly have various scientists and stuff like that, 619 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: But in terms of your pilots, you know, when you 620 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: were flying the Space Shuttle. I would bet the vast majority, 621 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: if not all, of those pilots for the Space Shuttle 622 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: still came out of the military. Oh yeah, so do 623 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: you do you want to say anything else about this 624 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: was something that that caught my interest in those early episodes, 625 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: the role of um cutting edge aircraft like the X 626 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: fifteen in our sort of escalation towards later space flight. Yeah, 627 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: the X fifteen was one of those aircraft that Neil 628 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: Armstrong flew uh in his test flight experience. The X 629 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: fifteen is basically rocket. It's basically a missile that has 630 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: these tiny, little stubby wings and a cockpit on the 631 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: front um and it is it can't is not capable 632 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: of taking off from the ground. It has to be 633 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: attached to the wing of a bomber and then taken 634 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: up to altitude and then it is dropped and you 635 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: kick on that engine and then you can can head 636 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: up by The X fifteen will fly basically at the 637 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: edge of space. And uh, the control surfaces on the wings, 638 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: those wings are so tiny because it doesn't need them 639 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: to fly it. It needs thrusters and and and uh 640 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: a little like micro jets that are embedded across the 641 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: spacecraft's body of the aircraft's body, because it acts like 642 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: a spacecraft once it gets up there. To control it 643 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: just uses these little puffs of thrusters to to maneuver 644 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: once it's up at high altitude, and then it comes 645 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: in for landings. That glides down in lands in these 646 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: gigantic um salt fields, these in California, flat flat field. 647 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: I think there's a terrifying story you tell about. I 648 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: believe it was Neil Armstrong who's flying in one of 649 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: these and is like trying to descend, but the nose, 650 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: it won't descend because the nose keeps bouncing off of 651 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: the top of the atmosphere. Yes, yeah, it wouldn't. He 652 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: couldn't get it down. He was he was running low 653 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: on fuel. It was time to come back home. He 654 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: tried to angle it the plane down. It wouldn't do it. 655 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: It kept bouncing off the atmosphere and bouncing back up. 656 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: And he was finally able to get it under control, 657 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: but he completely ran out of fuel and he was 658 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: coming back towards Edwards Air Force Space, which is outside 659 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: far outside Los Angeles. But he was coming down so 660 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: fast and so out of his flight zone that he 661 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: was coming like straight down into Pasadena and was able 662 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: finally to get controls and and bring himself back in, 663 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: but he landed. It was one of dozens of times 664 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: that Neil Armstrong practically died um doing that job, because 665 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: he barely eked it back home in time. And that 666 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: was that was something that so many of these guys did. 667 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: You know, if anyone seen the movie The Right Stuff, 668 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: you realize how many people there's that. There's an amazing 669 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: scene in the beginning of The Right Stuff. I think 670 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: it's Dennis Quaid's character comes in to the bar that's 671 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: out there in the middle of the desert, and there's 672 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: the wall is covered with all of these smiling faces 673 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: of guys in uniform and posing in front of planes, 674 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: and he tells the bartender. He's like, he's he's new 675 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: to tow Edwards Air Force Space. He's like, I'm going 676 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: to be up there someday. You're gonna you're gonna know 677 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: who I am. And the bartender says, every single one 678 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: of the people on that wall have died. They were 679 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: all killed in this in this program testing new aircraft, 680 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: and that kind of really humbled both him and the audience. 681 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: You suddenly realized, Man, all of the technological advances we 682 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: have made have come um at the expense of a 683 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: lot of injuries and a lot of death. Yeah. Uh, well, well, 684 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: to discuss another edge of your seat descent, maybe we 685 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: should switch over to the lunar module and his way 686 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: of introduction to that. One of the things I always 687 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: remember thinking when I was younger was when I saw 688 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: pictures of the Apollo eleven lunar module. I thought, that 689 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: doesn't look like a space ship? What what? What? Was? 690 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: What was wrong with my thinking? They're like, why, why? 691 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: Why is it that that doesn't look like a spaceship? 692 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: And that's okay. Yeah. So if you look at the 693 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: command module, that's the module in which the men spent 694 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: most of their time, that looks like a gum drop 695 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: and has a it's a triangular shaped thing, and it's 696 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: triangularly shaped because it's first part of its voyage has 697 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: to get from the ground on Earth up to orbit 698 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: and then onto the Moon, so it needs to be 699 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: as sharp and angled as possible, and then when it 700 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: comes back down, it needs to blend in forward and 701 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 1: land in the ocean. So everything needs to have sharp edges. 702 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: You know sports cars. Your hummer is not a sports 703 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: car because it doesn't have the angled lines of a Porsche. 704 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: You need something that's going to go through the atmosphere 705 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: needs to be sharp so that it can cut through 706 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: the atmosphere. The lambs not doing that, the lunar module 707 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: can look like an ungainly monstrosity because it's never going 708 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: to fly in earth atmosphere. It's only ever gonna take 709 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: taste the vacuum of space, and so it doesn't need 710 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: to be sharp, it doesn't need to cut through anything, 711 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: and so you could basically make it look however you want. 712 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: And so the joke was they always called it the bug, 713 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: and it really like the two little tiny triangular windows 714 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: on the front and then the hatches and various things 715 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: you can it's got eyes, it's got a mouth, it 716 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: looks like it's got a nose, and yeah, it's it's 717 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: it's so ugly. It's beautiful. It's not certainly something that 718 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: was designed to look pretty. Was designed purely for functionality. 719 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: And they could do that because it was never going 720 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: to ever taste atmosphere. Alright, time to take a quick break, 721 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with more than and we're back. 722 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: You tell some excellent stories about the design of the 723 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: lunar module, about what company was doing It was a 724 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: Grumman that was making it, or north of north of Grumman. Yeah, yeah, 725 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: I think it wasn't North of Grumman at the time. 726 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: That was a later fusion of two companies. I believe 727 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: it was just the grum incorporation at that time. But yeah, 728 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: you talk about like the all the design phases and 729 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: all all the problems they encountered as they went through. 730 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: Do you uh, do you want to get into that 731 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: a little bit? Yeah. Mike Lisa was the guy that 732 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: we interviewed at Grumman who was one of the test 733 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: engineers who basically helped build and test this thing before 734 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: it went to space. He was another of my favorite interviews. 735 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: He was just so infectiously excited to talk about this it. 736 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 1: Even to this day, he worked Grumman for his entire life. 737 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: He still lives in the exact same New York house 738 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: that he lived in when he was working on building 739 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: the lemb Um, And even to this day he's retired 740 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: and he's a docent in a museum, and he still 741 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: just kind of like, is there to answer questions about 742 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 1: one of the ludder. They have one of the lunar 743 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: modules um at his museum in New York, and I 744 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: believe it's Brookhaven Um because that's where they were they 745 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: were all built. He was so just his his gushing 746 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: enthusiasm for this program was so much fun and when 747 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: you go through his wonderful New York accent, it just 748 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: made him made him so memorable. But yeah, the things 749 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: that they had to do to make sure that this 750 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,240 Speaker 1: thing could survive blast off for one and then lunar 751 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: descent and take off for another. They they built and 752 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: there's some stuff that again, and I'm sure you can 753 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: understand this with your own podcast. There's so many things 754 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: that get cut for time or whatever, and you're just like, oh, 755 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: I wish I could share this with the world and 756 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: some of the stuff, and we do share this to 757 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: some degree. But they built these shakers basically massive, massive 758 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: speakers UM. And just like if you have a speaker 759 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: in your house and you put something fragile on top 760 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: of it and you crank that thing up to eleven, 761 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: it just starts shaking everything off and shaking everything in 762 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: your house. Well, that's basically what they did to the 763 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: lunar module. They tested every little component individually and then 764 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: constructed the lunar module and then put this thing basically 765 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: on top of this giant speaker for what isn't all 766 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: intensive purposes, a giant speaker, and shook it and shook 767 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: it until it fell apart, just to see how long 768 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: it would last. Where were the where were its strengths, 769 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: where were its physical weaknesses. They would turn it upside 770 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: down and shake it to see what fell off. And 771 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: every time something fell off, you know, production stopped and 772 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: they would go and remachine that piece and fix it again, 773 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: because it had to. It had to withstand both the 774 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: stress of a launch and of course getting to and 775 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: from the Moon. And the lunar module, of course, is 776 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: two separate spacecraft, right It's it's got its ascent stage 777 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: and the descent stage, and the bottom, the decent stage, 778 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: stays on the Moon once they blast off and basically 779 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: becomes the launch platform for the ascent stage when it 780 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: when it takes off. And so there's just so many 781 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: the the amount of technical difficulty and complexity in all 782 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 1: of these machines is breathtaking. It's why the HBO series. 783 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: From the Earth to the Moon is a spectacular series. 784 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: But my favorite episode is the episode called Spider, and 785 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: that's the episode in which you follow the guys along 786 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,919 Speaker 1: as they're building louder or module. It's not even doesn't 787 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: even really take place in space until the very end. 788 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: It's just about a bunch of the guys on the 789 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: ground trying to figure out how to build something no 790 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: one had ever built before. These guys all designed and 791 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,760 Speaker 1: built aircraft. They designed and built the kind of aircraft 792 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: that you know that the guys are flying when they're 793 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 1: flying over Korea, or that they're flying as test pilots, 794 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: and now all of a sudden, they're building a spacecraft 795 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: that is never gonna taste atmosphere, and no one's ever 796 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,919 Speaker 1: done it before. Like so much of APAOLA was, we're 797 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 1: building and doing things no one had ever done before. 798 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: We don't even know necessarily what we're doing. We're just 799 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: we're kind of flying blind and giving our best guesses 800 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: and and using really nascent science and technology to kind 801 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: of okay, fingers crossed, hope this works. And we of 802 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: course we pulled it off not once, but you know, 803 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: a dozen times. Yeah. Uh well, speaking of from the 804 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: Earth to the Moon. That reminds me of something I 805 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about. So a lot of times 806 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: on the show we end up talking about the interaction 807 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: between science fiction and real cutting edge exploration or experiment. 808 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: Uh there's just one example that's stuck in my memory 809 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: from years ago. I remember reading that. I don't know 810 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: if you came across this, but remembering that during the 811 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: planning phase there was at least at some point someone 812 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: had a concern about the lunar regulth and the idea 813 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: that uh so, like the soil covering the surface of 814 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: the Moon, that it might be so fine grained that 815 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: it would function as a kind of quicksand and that 816 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: the lunar module might sink into the Moon or become 817 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: stuck in the soil after landing. I don't know if 818 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,280 Speaker 1: you get into that later or or if you encountered 819 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: that concern, but that was like a gym in my mind, 820 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: because it of course turned out not to be the case. 821 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: But I'm struck by how much that sounds like a 822 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: scene from a pulp sci fi story, like from you know, 823 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: something that might be published in Amazing stories. Yeah, and 824 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: it was something it was so uh speaking one of 825 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: the one of the astronauts, one of the moonwalkers I 826 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: spoke to for this podcast was Harrison Schmidt, who flew 827 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: aboard Apollo seventeen, and I brought those very things up 828 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: with him, and we do address those in episode five, 829 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: which is our the actual moon landing mission, the day 830 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: we landed on the Moon, and he said those things 831 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 1: were concerns for for several scientists, they were not really 832 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 1: concerns for NASA. They didn't buy into all of that. Um. 833 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 1: He said. It was actually one particular scientist who wasn't 834 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: who was an eminent astrophysicist UM whose name eludes me 835 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: at the moment, but who kind of went off on 836 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: some crazy rabbit trails when it came to landing on 837 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: the Moon. But yes, they did think that the lunar 838 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: module might hit the lunar surface and then suddenly just 839 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: sink beneath it like quicksand they were concerned that the 840 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: lunar regular might, when exposed to oxygen um, spontaneously combust. 841 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: And so even though I say that almost everyone at 842 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: NASA didn't think that was going to happen, I should 843 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,320 Speaker 1: also say that Neil's arms Neil Armstrong's mom was convinced 844 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: it was going to happen, and when he climbed off 845 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: the ladder, he tethered himself and when he took his 846 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,760 Speaker 1: first step, he kind of bounced and then stepped back 847 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: and then realized, Okay, nothing's happening. I'm gonna be okay. 848 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: And then later before when they got back into the 849 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: into the lunar module, they took some of that regulars 850 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 1: with them and put it on top of the ascent 851 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: engine cover and then started slowly bleeding uh an atmosphere 852 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,919 Speaker 1: oxygen back into the into the cabin. But they only 853 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: had a little bit of it exposed because they wanted 854 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: to test is this thing gonna catch fire? Are we 855 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: going to explode? If it is, we want to make 856 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: sure that it's just a tiny bit and then we 857 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: can determine but if this is gonna go wrong. But 858 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: nothing caught fire, and of course they were fine, and 859 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 1: of course they were covered in lunar regular and it's 860 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: not you know, so all of that stuff we'd already landed. 861 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 1: The Russians had already landed spacecraft on the Moon, onmanned 862 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: spacecraft on the Moon, and those didn't sink, and of course, 863 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: the lunar module when it sat down didn't sink, so 864 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure Neil was pretty convinced it wasn't gonna happen. 865 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was absolutely a fear with a lot 866 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: of people. They you know, it's one of those like 867 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: I said, we've never done this before. You had no 868 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: idea what was going to happen. Uh. Yeah, And as 869 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,320 Speaker 1: far as combustion goes, I mean, I can't imagine how 870 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: much the specter of what happened with Apollo one would have, 871 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, haunted everything that came after. They're sure, and 872 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 1: it's not as if regular isn't scary stuff. So regulars, 873 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: like you said, is the is the powdery surface that's 874 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: on the on the top of of the of the 875 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: lunar surface, and it is fine grain. It is like 876 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 1: talcum powder. It is is ash. It is so incredibly fine, 877 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 1: but it is also so incredibly sharp. Because on Earth, 878 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: you have erosion, you have wind, you have water, you 879 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 1: have all these things that take the sort of stuff 880 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: that the sort of fine grain sand and stuff like 881 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: that and wears off all of those edges over time. 882 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: On the Moon, that doesn't happen. There is no wind, 883 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: there is no erosion. There is no water, and so everything, 884 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: if you look at it under microscopes is incredibly sharp 885 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: and incredibly jagged. And while Neil and Buzz were pretty 886 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: conservative when they were walking on the Moon, later cruise 887 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: started to get much more I should say, when they 888 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: were doing their exploring, they were they were bouncing around, 889 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: they were jumping, they were falling, they were rolling, blah 890 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: blah blah. That regular started actually cutting open their space 891 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: suits and releasing oxygen. They later found um and it 892 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: would get into the equipment and start ruining equipment. I mean, 893 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: it was just it was dangerous stuff. It's still something 894 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: that you know, on return missions to the Moon we 895 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: have to be very careful of. You don't want to 896 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: trape this stuff around because just a little of it, 897 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: too much, too much of this, you know, talcum powder 898 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: on your on your flight suit, are on your astronauts 899 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: uh e v A suits, and it's going to start 900 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: cutting cutting holes in it. It's horrifying. I mean, yeah, 901 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: I've read about that something before, like the idea of 902 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: creating a permanent lunar habitat. You need some kind of 903 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: like clean room or something in between two uh to 904 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: get them out to deal with the regular problem, but 905 00:45:58,400 --> 00:45:59,879 Speaker 1: to bring it back for a second to the idea 906 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: of science fiction. One thing that just crossed my mind 907 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: earlier today was how strange it is that Uh so, 908 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: of course, you know, you had a long tradition of 909 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,319 Speaker 1: stories about spaceflight and going to the moon. You know, 910 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: the astronauts themselves made reference to Jules fern and and uh, 911 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: what's voyage to the moon or or that's how we 912 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: got the name Columbia for the for the commandment. That's right, 913 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 1: straight from straight from Jules Verne. Yeah. But the other 914 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: one that was crazy for me to be to believe 915 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: was that two thousand one of Space Odyssey came out 916 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight, a year before the Moon landing, 917 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: and I'd always had it the other way around in 918 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 1: my mind. Um So, do you have a sense of 919 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 1: how the public's view, or maybe even with some of 920 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,839 Speaker 1: the people involved, how their view of space exploration in 921 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 1: the late nineteen sixties would have been influenced or colored 922 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:53,240 Speaker 1: by their engagement with science fiction. Oh, it absolutely drove 923 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: people like VERNR. Von Braun and even his Russian counterpart 924 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: korliev In in Russia. These guys were avid consumers of 925 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: science fiction. And this was back in the time, even 926 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: before like the movies really started getting big. You had 927 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: pulp science fiction. You had all of these um, not 928 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: only books, but you'd have magazines that came out with 929 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,839 Speaker 1: short stories that Isaac Asthmov and Ray Bradbury and all 930 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: of these like science fiction giants were writing at the time. Um, 931 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: those guys were eating those things up, and it absolutely 932 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,040 Speaker 1: drove them to do what they did. I have a 933 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: dear friend who works at NASA, and I once told her, 934 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,240 Speaker 1: you know something about how much I love science fiction, 935 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: how it's my favorite genre, and how Star Trek specifically 936 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: is my my all time favorite piece of art that 937 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: humans have ever made. Um and and I said, And 938 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,800 Speaker 1: she said something like, well, you know what you play 939 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: in You play in fake space. I worked in real 940 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: space and I and I told her, yes, but you 941 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: are surrounded by people the only reason they are working 942 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: in real space is because they were inspired by this 943 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: fake space. That this drove so many people, whether it 944 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: be the people who designed the Saturn five and all 945 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,440 Speaker 1: these rockets, where it inspired them to become astronauts. You know, 946 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: for the last fifty sixty years, people the space program 947 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: is populated by real people who were entirely energized and 948 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,560 Speaker 1: inspired by the thoughts and imaginations and and sort of 949 00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: wild fanciful stories that were created by science fiction. So 950 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: in addition to just motivating people to want to explore space, 951 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 1: do you ever get the sense that the science fiction 952 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: at all colored people's assumptions about what would happen in 953 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: space and space exploration? Oh? Yeah, absolutely. I mean I 954 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: don't know if I have any specific stories, but yeah, 955 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 1: you certainly, in doing this kind of research come across 956 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. I mean, even like you brought 957 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: up earlier with the regular thinking people were going to 958 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: sink and stuff like that, you know, going Apollo eleven 959 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,040 Speaker 1: landed on the moon in July of nineteen sixty nine, 960 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,520 Speaker 1: we already have two decades of of really heard of 961 00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: not hard sci fi, not in the in the technical 962 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,359 Speaker 1: term of that sense, um, but you have you've got 963 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 1: a lot of science fiction movies by this time. And 964 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 1: those science fiction movies are you know, go everything back 965 00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: from some of the early sort of French filmmaking in 966 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,959 Speaker 1: which you have little you know, jewels verne ships being 967 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,880 Speaker 1: shot out of cannons and landing on the Moon and 968 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: little guys popping out and encountering all of these crazy 969 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,160 Speaker 1: space aliens, and of course they're not wearing space suits. 970 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: But nobody knew. Nobody knew what what was on the Moon. 971 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, in the late sixties and stuff like that, 972 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: we've been studying it. It did, but back in the 973 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: early days, nobody knew. People thought that there were People 974 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,280 Speaker 1: thought they saw vegetation and rivers and and and animals 975 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,960 Speaker 1: and stuff on the Moon when they started to look 976 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 1: through like proto nascent telescopes and stuff like that. So yeah, 977 00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: absolutely you had science fiction that was coloring the assumptions 978 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,439 Speaker 1: of everybody going forward, and you you know, that kind 979 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,640 Speaker 1: of had to run smack dab into science and people 980 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: going Okay, that's that can't possibly be true. Or you know, 981 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,760 Speaker 1: we know there's no atmosphere. Okay, that's going to remove 982 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: any sort of ideas of life at least as we 983 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 1: know it existing on the surface of the Moon. So 984 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: you know there's that. But yeah, it absolutely colored colored everything. 985 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,240 Speaker 1: It's one of those things that, like in any enterprise 986 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: in human life, once you do the thing, once you 987 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,600 Speaker 1: make that exploration, so many of those assumptions. Of course, 988 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,640 Speaker 1: fall away in the face of facts and evidence and 989 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,440 Speaker 1: science and whatnot. But before someone is bold enough to 990 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: make that first step and can either confirm or disprove it, um, 991 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, it remains an open possibility. There was one 992 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: quote that I may have been in your first episode 993 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 1: that I really liked. It was I believe an astronaut 994 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: named Dick Gordon or was he an astronaut or did 995 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,279 Speaker 1: he just work with NASA? Were he anyway? Sorry? The 996 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,879 Speaker 1: quote is uh, he says, what did we discover when 997 00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,600 Speaker 1: we went to the Moon. We discovered Earth? Uh. And 998 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: this seems to be a common sentiment among a lot 999 00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: of astronauts that they have a different kind of view 1000 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: of of life on Earth after being in space. Yeah, 1001 00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,280 Speaker 1: Dick Gordon was an Apollo astronaut, and his impress Shian 1002 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: was almost universal. Um. Even even the Apollo eleven astronauts 1003 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: talk about that seeing the Earth from a distance um 1004 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:18,240 Speaker 1: was more life changing than even walking on the Moon. Um. 1005 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,879 Speaker 1: And almost to a man, every single one of them 1006 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,400 Speaker 1: said that they just their lives were transformed. Harrison Schmidt, 1007 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,920 Speaker 1: ironically is one of the only ones who didn't kind 1008 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: of have some euphoric experience, and I don't know if 1009 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: that's because he was much more of a grounded scientist 1010 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: or whatnot. But everyone kind of came back. Their lives changed. 1011 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: Some people found God. Some people came back and became artists. 1012 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,399 Speaker 1: They just wanted to try to communicate via their art 1013 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 1: and their painting and sculptures and stuff like that, what 1014 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: they what they learned from seeing the moon and from 1015 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 1: seeing the Earth. Um A lot of them came back 1016 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:56,400 Speaker 1: very seriously engaged in and promoting uh conservation and and 1017 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,720 Speaker 1: and environmentalism and stuff like that. The environmentalism movement pretty 1018 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: much kicked off when Apollo eleven took the first picture 1019 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 1: of the Earth rise from the Moon, and all of 1020 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,720 Speaker 1: a sudden we realized, Wow, the Earth is this tiny, 1021 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,919 Speaker 1: fragile little thing sitting in the middle of this gigantic 1022 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:18,239 Speaker 1: black void, and it just seems so fragile. And another 1023 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,279 Speaker 1: asteroat I can't remember who it was, described it as 1024 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,080 Speaker 1: a as a Christmas ornament hanging in the binky black 1025 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: of space, and you suddenly realize, oh, okay, this is fragile. 1026 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 1: We need to take care of this. And the other 1027 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: thing that so many people realized is hey, from orbit, 1028 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,880 Speaker 1: there are no borders. This is not like a globe 1029 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: where you recognize where one country starts another country ends. 1030 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 1: This is ludicrous, the sort of fights and political infighting 1031 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 1: and stuff that we have. We are human beings and 1032 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: we need to be human beings first, before we're even Americans, 1033 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,239 Speaker 1: before we Russians, before where anything you get, as Neil 1034 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: Degrass Tyson would call it, the cosmic perspective. Interesting how 1035 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: that intersects with what we were talking about earlier with 1036 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,279 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy and the you know, the motivations of 1037 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,759 Speaker 1: the space program being almost purely geopolitical to begin with. 1038 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,279 Speaker 1: You know, there's so much about human life and so 1039 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: many of the things that humans do that even if 1040 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: it's done pursuing one particular thing, we come out of 1041 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: it realizing so much more. It's such a larger experience. 1042 00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,359 Speaker 1: It informs so much more about what we are and 1043 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,319 Speaker 1: who we are, and how we live and how we 1044 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,719 Speaker 1: should relate to each other. Um And that's just that's 1045 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: a exactly, it's a that's a terrific example of that. 1046 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,319 Speaker 1: We may have done something for one reason, but what 1047 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 1: we got out of it was so much deeper and 1048 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: so much richer. But it's still a lesson we need 1049 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 1: to take on board today. I mean, it's clearly something 1050 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: that we haven't listened to enough. You know, we're we're 1051 00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,279 Speaker 1: not taking care of our planet like we should. We're 1052 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,200 Speaker 1: still having the same sort of petty political squabbles and 1053 00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,520 Speaker 1: one up and shipped like you know. But at least 1054 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 1: now we have something to refer back to and say, hey, 1055 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: knock it off humans. All right, Well, it's been really 1056 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 1: great talking to you, Brandon. I really enjoyed this, and 1057 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,359 Speaker 1: again I really do enjoy with the show. Um, I'm 1058 00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,160 Speaker 1: glad to be glad to be able to recommend it 1059 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,879 Speaker 1: to our listeners. So so thanks so much, Thanks so much. 1060 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: I I hope I hope they enjoyed two. I think 1061 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,799 Speaker 1: they will. All right, Well, that does it huge. Thanks 1062 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: again to Brandon Fibbs for joining us today. If you 1063 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: haven't checked out nine days in July yet, you should 1064 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: give it a listen. I've been really enjoying it and 1065 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,920 Speaker 1: I think you will too. In the meantime, if you 1066 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,279 Speaker 1: want to check out any other episodes of our podcast, 1067 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: you can go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot 1068 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:30,839 Speaker 1: com that will get you there, or you can just 1069 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:32,880 Speaker 1: look up Stuff to Blow your Mind on wherever you 1070 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 1: get your podcasts on iTunes and the I heart Radio 1071 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,720 Speaker 1: app or um you know you know all the places. 1072 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 1: Big thank you as always to our excellent audio producer 1073 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in 1074 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,279 Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 1075 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hello, 1076 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,520 Speaker 1: you can reach us by email at contact at stuff 1077 00:54:53,560 --> 00:55:03,080 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 1078 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,320 Speaker 1: Mind is a production of iHeart Radios. How stuff Works. 1079 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,279 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio is a the 1080 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1081 00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.