1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, or welcome back to 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: the show, or welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: old listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is 7 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: so great to have you here today. I am literally 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: sitting in my room in a bikini. I just got 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: back from the beach. And when I tell you that 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: I raced home because I wanted to record this, I'm 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: not even joking. I'm so excited for today's episode because 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: today or we are talking about the idea or the 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: psychological construct of co dependency, and not just in romantic relationships, 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: but also in other fundamental interpersonal relationships, particularly our friendships 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: and with our family. I think that codependency can show 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: up in so many facets of our social lives. And 17 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: although there is a healthy amount of dependency and very 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: real reasons why that kind of turns into codependency, when 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: it's taken to extremes, when it's uncontrollable, what can emerge 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: are pretty I would say, parasitic, symbiotic, relationships that restrict 21 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: our lives. It is a very nuanced idea and a 22 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: very nuanced concept, and I get this topic requested of 23 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: me all the time, all the time, so it must 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: be bothering some of us out there, and I honestly 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: don't know why I haven't done it sooner, because it 26 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: is such a crucial and a valuable discussion that needs 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: to be had in this decade of our lives. I 28 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: also think another reason I was really cool to almost 29 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: do an episode on this, and the reason I wanted 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: to discuss the idea of codependency is because I think 31 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: that its meaning has been incredibly skewed by misinterpretations on 32 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: the Internet, in pop culture, across social media, and when 33 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: we use the term codependency, it's often really casual and 34 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: flip it, and from the research that I've done, I've 35 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: just come to realize it's so much more than that. 36 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: So hopefully we can set the meaning straight in this 37 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: episode and kind of dive into all of the psychology 38 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: that is the basis of this concept and this idea, 39 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: especially how it can become visible and can become a 40 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: problem in our friendships and in our relationships. So we're 41 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: going to discuss, of course, the history behind them codependency, 42 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: how it actually found its beginnings in AA meetings of 43 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: all places, how it shows up in our lives, how 44 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: it manifests in our relations ships. I guess also some 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: of the warning signs and some of the causes of 46 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: this experience of codependency, specifically to do with our upbringing 47 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: and childhood attachment. But I also want to talk about 48 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: healthy dependency into dependency and what it really means to 49 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: rely on to love and trust other people in a 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: way that is sustainable and healthy in what that means 51 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: for our lives. But if you're listening to this with 52 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: a bit of fear, maybe that a relationship of yours 53 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: is becoming codependent, not to worry, because I also really 54 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: want to rehash some of the discussions that we've had 55 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: before around boundaries and how to separate yourself and someone 56 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: you may be codependent with and restore a healthy amount 57 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: of reliance and support between you and another person. This 58 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: topic is so relevant for our twenties. I feel like 59 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: in this decade we are filled with so many emotions 60 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: and feelings and realizations, but also insecurities and quite frankly, 61 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: things that we need help with things that we haven't 62 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: yet figured out, and the intensity of close relationships that 63 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: we have in this decade, be that platonic with our 64 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: family or intimate. Those relationships can be such a soothing 65 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: band aid almost for so many of our worries and concerns. 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: But often when we cling to people in times of uncertainty, 67 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: it can create problems. You know. I've had partners and 68 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: friends who have been an absolute lifeline for me in 69 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: periods of crisis. I felt like I couldn't live without them. 70 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: But I think it's important to know when that is 71 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: stepping into one unhealthy terrain and could actually potentially undermine 72 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: what is best for us. So a discussion around codependency 73 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: and how it manifests in the relationships we have, I 74 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: think is so crucial. And if you can relate, eat 75 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: while you're definitely in the right place, I guess, and 76 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: in for a treat because there's so much fascinating stuff 77 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of what we typically see or think 78 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: of codependency, and so many things to I guess, discuss 79 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: and explore. So get ready, strap in. I am so 80 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: excited for this deep dive and the discussion and all 81 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: that is to come, Like we always do. Let's start 82 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: this discussion, this exploration by getting our basics downpat What 83 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: is codependency and what is the psychological basis I guess 84 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: behind its existence and presentation in our lives. So essentially, 85 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: codependency is an unhealthy, dysfunctional relationship that is unbalanced, whereby 86 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: one person has assumed the role of the giver or 87 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: the provider. There's someone who's willing to give and sacrifice 88 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: everything for another person, whereas the other individual in this 89 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: relationship is the taker. I think the first major element 90 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,119 Speaker 1: of this kind of relationship is that it is unhealthy. 91 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: I think when we typically think about codependency as a society, 92 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: as a community of people who have access to the 93 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: Internet and whatnot, we tend to imagine people who spend 94 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: a lot of time together or who are really inseparable. 95 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: You know, you may have a best friend who you 96 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: see every day and you do everything with and you 97 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: talk for hours and you can't imagine your life without. 98 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: That isn't inherently unhealthy or codependent. If both people are 99 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: equally reliant on each other, or the relationship is what 100 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: we would call mutually beneficial. You know, there is a 101 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: balanced level of support and compassion from both parties. It 102 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: becomes unhealthy and it becomes codependent. When the balancing act 103 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: is just tributed or disturbed and it shifts in one 104 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: person's favor, you know, it's no longer even. And this 105 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: is really important when we consider the second element of codependency, 106 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: which is that all the relationships that are codependent are 107 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: seen as one sided. You know, one person being the giver, 108 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: one person being the taker. That doesn't mean that both 109 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: parties don't actually get something from the arrangement, because the 110 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: relationship that they have struck may mean that each is 111 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: equally as dependent for different reasons. I don't think this 112 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: is to make a generalization about every codependent relationship, you know. 113 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: I think when we talk about abusive relationships or abuse, 114 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: we are moving away from simply codependency, and sometimes they 115 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: come hand in hand, especially when we consider emotional abuse. 116 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: But I think most people who we would consider as codependent, 117 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: the nature of their codependency rests on that truth that 118 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: both parties are receiving something, regardless of whether they recognize 119 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: that consciously. For example, in any codependent situation, we have 120 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: that giver, we have that taker, and each person has 121 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: taken up one of those roles that's essentially the equation 122 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: of any codependent relationship. And although I think we may 123 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: take pity on the giver because they're being really self sacrificing, 124 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: maybe they're unable to set boundaries, or they're exhausted by 125 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: their counterparts need to take from them or be reliant 126 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: on them. They may get some satisfaction from providing this 127 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: one sided support to the taker, or they may feel 128 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: responsible for their partner or their parents or their friends, 129 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: and all that comes without their thoughts, their feelings and 130 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: their actions. And in contrast, you know, the taker receives 131 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: essentially unconditional love and support, patience, forgiveness, whatever they need, 132 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: and they are willing to accept that. I think the 133 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: term codependent, like I said, is often lobbied at people 134 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: to describe them as kind of needy or really clingy, 135 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: but it is so much more than that, and it's 136 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: often encouraged in some way in some ways by the 137 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: giver and also the taker as well, I guess, because 138 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: they share in the responsibility and need for each other. 139 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: I saw it described really well by this person called 140 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: doctor leg in Medical News today, and what they said 141 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: essentially was that a codependent relationship occurs when one person 142 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: needs the other, who in turn needs to be needed. 143 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: Like I said before, codependency it's not just reserved for 144 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: romantic relationships as we may assume. It can really take 145 00:09:54,640 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: place in any relationship which becomes unbalanced. Friendship, work relationships, 146 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: family relationships with our parents, with our siblings, with our 147 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: aunts and uncles, anyone that you have some kind of 148 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: social interaction with. I often think about the people who 149 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: message me or tell me about friends of theirs who 150 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: are absolutely reliant on them for all emotional support, and 151 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: they're constantly sacrificing their time and their energy to almost 152 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: tend to this person. Whereas when they have problems or issues, 153 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: that friend is never there for them. They're never willing 154 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: to make those sacrifices. Their friend is completely dependent on them, 155 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: whilst the other person just has to bear that and 156 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: either can't do something or doesn't feel right about asking 157 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: for that reciprocation. Withdrawing from that type of person, someone 158 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: who is co dependent on you can be really really difficult, 159 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that later. But interestingly, 160 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: before we jump into that, I think some of the 161 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: history is quite fascinating. You know, the term codependent or codependency. 162 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: It actually came out of research on the relationships between 163 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: people who were suffering from addiction and the people that 164 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: were close to them in their lives. That's where the 165 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: term first appeared amongst researchers who were studying people with addiction, 166 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: and they used it to describe the almost lopsided or 167 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, one sided, enabling relationships between someone who was struggling, 168 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: perhaps with alcohol abuse or substance abuse and the people, 169 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: you know, normally family and partners, who feel that they 170 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: have to give into that person's struggles and they have 171 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: to help them. Then it kind of moved its way 172 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: into AA alcoholics anonymous meetings, and then it kind of 173 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: became a common term through that as it became more 174 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: excessive to people. And I guess now it's been embraced 175 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: by pop culture and pop you know and psychobabble to 176 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: describe something that I think it really wasn't intended to represent, 177 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: you know. Essentially, it was used to describe enabling relationships, 178 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: you know, where one person is enabling another person's dependence 179 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: on them or their dependence on something like drugs or alcohol. 180 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: This actually really surprised me when I learned this because 181 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: I think, like most people, I had a very naive 182 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: i would say, understanding of what it was. I used 183 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: it very casually. But it is a lot more severe 184 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: and intricate than that. So, now that we kind of 185 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: know some of the history and what I would call 186 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: the basic elements of a codependent relationship, you know that 187 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: they're maladaptive, they're one sided, they're unhealthy. I really want 188 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: to provide a bit of an overview, I guess, of 189 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: some of the warning signs in our own relationships and 190 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: those of people close to us as well, some of 191 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: the things to look out for. I'm going to quickly 192 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: state that although codependency is not something that you can 193 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: be diagnosed with per se, if you see some part 194 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: of yourself or your own experience in what I am describing, 195 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: what I'm going to talk about, there is a lot 196 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: of professional help out there for you, and there are 197 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: people that you can talk to. You know you're not 198 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: going to get a diagnosis, or the person that you're 199 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: speaking about isn't going to get a diagnosis. I think 200 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: dependent personality disorder is probably the closest thing that we 201 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: can get to, and that's essentially describing pervasive psychological dependence 202 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: on other people, in which someone is unable to be 203 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: independent and unable to meet their own emotional needs or 204 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: make decisions, and needs to receive constant approval from others. 205 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: And I guess that is it's unlike codependency and that 206 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: it doesn't involve reliance on just one person. But I 207 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: think that like the general psychological community, you know, the DSM, 208 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: it hasn't really caught up to the fact that dependent 209 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: personality disorder and codependency are actually quite hand in hand. 210 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: And we speak a lot about codependency in terms of addiction, 211 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: but there still isn't that recognition that this is something 212 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: that is can really affect someone's psychological and physical and 213 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: emotional well being. So let's talk about some of the 214 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: I guess warning signs, some of the things to look 215 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: out for. Firstly, in codependent relationships, there is going to 216 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: be an imbalance of power. If you are finding that 217 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: you are giving much more energy, time, love, patience to 218 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: another person who is really only using you for their 219 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: own needs. That's probably the biggest indicator. According to this 220 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist I think their name was quoted Derek or 221 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: something like that, we may feel when we're in this situation. 222 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: If we are the giver in this situation, like we 223 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: have to save the person from themselves, and we feel 224 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: responsible for their emotional state and their well being, you know, 225 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: you take over their responsibility for themselves and you help 226 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: them pick up the pieces. In that instance in which 227 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: you feel responsible for someone else, they're not able to 228 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: do it without you. They need you, and you're kind 229 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: of stuck. You're in this situation where you're like, I'm 230 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: so stressed, I've lost my independence. It's a probably a 231 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: fairly big indicator. The relationship is moving towards codependence. Another 232 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: huge indicator, and I feel like this is quite obvious, 233 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: but I just feel like I need to state it 234 00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: for the record, is complete emotional exhaustion, even physical exhaust 235 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: and what that comes from is essentially having to be 236 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: responsible for another person, a grown adult, to the point 237 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: that caring for yourself is almost the second priority, which 238 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: it never should be. You know. The analogy I always 239 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: use is that when a plane is crashing, when a 240 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: plane is going down, you will never hear a flight 241 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: attendant tell you to put the oxygen mask on someone 242 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: else before yourself. And that goes for everyday relationships. As well. 243 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: You should always be helping yourself, making sure that you 244 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: are well before taking on that responsibility for others. And 245 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: if you're feeling like your relationship with that person is 246 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: taking time away from yourself, you know that you don't 247 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: want to answer their calls or the text messages because 248 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: it's going to be disastrous. If you feel intense anxiety 249 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: when they message you, or you stop doing what you're doing, 250 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: you interrupt your plans to see them or to help them, 251 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: that's a huge sign that your relationship is codependent, especially 252 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: if they don't do the same for you. I think 253 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: it's worth acknowledging that when we are in these situations, 254 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: it can be incredibly difficult to establish boundaries or even 255 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: feel that we can put ourselves first because we are 256 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: so wrapped up in our responsibility and our sense of 257 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: loyalty to this other person, especially if you know they're 258 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: your romantic partner, or if they're your mother or your father, 259 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: or your sibling or your best friend. And I did 260 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: a whole episode on kind of how to move forward 261 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: from this called I think it's about setting boundaries and 262 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: sticking to them, and I think that's really relevant here. 263 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: So if you are really struggling, go and listen to 264 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 1: that around setting boundaries with someone if it is a 265 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: really emotionally tumultuous situation. But there is a few more 266 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: signs that I guess I just want to go through 267 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: really quickly, and which I think is so worth bringing 268 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: up here. A lot of the signs that we've talked 269 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: about so far have been how the giver feels. You 270 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: know that you might feel like your life revolves around 271 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: this person, you don't have your own space, you feel stuck, 272 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: you feel guilty, you feel shame. But in terms of 273 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: the taker, there are some people who are in codependent 274 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: relationships who are taking from someone else, who might have 275 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: that realization of like this actually isn't healthy for me, 276 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: and it isn't healthy for them. So these people they 277 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: may really struggle with being alone and also feeling alone. 278 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: They blame the other person for all that is wrong 279 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: in their life. They say things like I couldn't live 280 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: without you. Their behavior might actually escalate in severity when 281 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: you do try to set boundaries or you do try 282 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: and pull away. They may use guilt against you or 283 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: maintain a pretty strong sense of victimhood, even sometimes placing 284 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: you as the villain, and all of this is is 285 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: really manipulative, but it doesn't always come from a place 286 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: that wants to be cruel or come from a place 287 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: that wants to be manipulative. It can also just be 288 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: that they actually don't have a strong support system, they 289 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: don't trust other people, and you know, the sad truth 290 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: is that people will only treat you the way that 291 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: you allow them. So this pattern of behavior may have 292 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: developed over a long period of time in which boundaries 293 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: have not been well established or they haven't been respected. 294 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: And it's not to victim blame or blame anyone or 295 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: assign any stigma to either member of this kind of relationship, 296 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: vulnerability and relationships, even addiction, as we were saying before, 297 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: they're really complex and they're really sensitive things. So if 298 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: you're relating to any of this, either in a relationship 299 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: with your partner or your friend, whoever, please don't blame 300 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: yourself for this kind of relationship. I think we are 301 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: all just trying our best with what we have. But 302 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: I think that it is really important to understand and 303 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: be aware of what this means for us. And I 304 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: think many of the signs are also what we would 305 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: call the consequences of codependency. Often, if you're a clinical 306 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 1: psychologist and someone came to you and said, my partner 307 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: is so reliant on me any time anything goes wrong, 308 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: they need me to be there for them. I support 309 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: them financially, they don't have any other friends. But when 310 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: I need support they push me away. They're going to 311 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: look at you and say, oh, that's codependent. You know, 312 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: there's a lack of separation, there's a lack of individuality, 313 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: of healthy coping mechanisms or independence, and like I just mentioned, 314 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: it may even result in the giver often giving up 315 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: money or resources for the other person. And there is 316 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: of course that moment of control which we may associate 317 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: with the taker, but actually I, the party in this relationship, 318 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: can promote this to the point where it becomes unnatural 319 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: and unhealthy. So why do these relationships happen? They sound 320 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: quite unnatural, I would say, I think it's rare to 321 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: see a full blown codependent relationship in everyday life. They 322 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: definitely still exist, So why is it that some people 323 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: find themselves in such a toxic cycle? Well? As the 324 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: origins of the term codependency suggest, a huge risk factor 325 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: or contributor is the presence of addiction in one or 326 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: even both members. There was a study conducted in twenty 327 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: fourteen and it found that people who were surveyed who 328 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: had a family member or a personal history of addiction, 329 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: particularly with alcohol, they were more likely to report that 330 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: they had been in a codependent relationship or that they 331 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: had been codependent on someone else. And the study also 332 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: examined whether men or women were more susceptible to codependency, 333 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: and interestingly, these relationships were just as common within men 334 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: and women, within both genders. That kind of surprised me, 335 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: I will say, because I think that women are often 336 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: very much stereotyped as being more nurturing and natural caregivers 337 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: and really bad at setting boundaries, whatever you want to say. 338 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: But I think that in these scenarios, really, in these situations, 339 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: everyone is just as susceptible as the next, regardless of gender. 340 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: The factors that determine these kinds of relationships have a 341 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: lot more to do with things like your childhood, you know, 342 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: having a history of abuse or abandonment. That's a huge 343 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: predisposing risk factor because often that means that that person, 344 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: whoever it may be, has not been taught what a 345 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: healthy mutually beneficial relationship looks like. Remember, how we learn 346 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: to treat people and be treated is very much modeled 347 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: on how our parents or our early caregivers conducted their 348 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: relationships or treated us. And people who have unfortunately experienced 349 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: abuse or abandonment, they themselves become more at risk of 350 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: finding themselves in a codependent relationship, either as the giver 351 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: or the taker, depending on what they lacked or had 352 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: experienced in childhood. Honestly, I think, like many problems like codependency, 353 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: the root of this problem. The cause of this problem 354 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: is our upbringing and our family or childhood environment, especially 355 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: if they were dysfunctional or they didn't provide our core 356 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: emotional needs. And generally speaking, our attachment style patterns that 357 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: were developed in early childhood are really going to influence 358 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: whether or not we end up in this this kind 359 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: of scenario. With all of that in mind, what I 360 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: really want to discuss next is the distinction between codependence 361 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: and a healthy level of dependency that we would expect 362 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: to see in our relationships. I think I've spent the 363 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: large majority of this first bit of this episode really 364 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: kind of drilling into our minds how terrible this can 365 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: be and how maybe we shouldn't rely on someone or 366 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: we don't want to be deemed as codependent or too close. 367 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: Obviously that is not true. So I really want to 368 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: discuss that distinction between codependence and healthy dependence or interdependency 369 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: before we kind of outline some strategies for disentangling or 370 00:24:52,040 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: distancing ourselves from codependent relationships. Our next partner has a 371 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: product I use literally every day. 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Healthy amount of reliance on 393 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: someone else for support, for encouragement and love is absolutely normal. 394 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: In fact, I think it would be more worrying to 395 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: me if we were completely detached from others and could 396 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: never rely on someone else to fulfill some aspect of 397 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: our emotional needs. Where social beings, we are pack animals, 398 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: a tribal species at our core, and what that means 399 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: is that we crave and we need connections with others. 400 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: We need trust between ourselves and other people to thrive. 401 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: So where can we draw the line between dependence and 402 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: its evil twin, you know, codependency. I think the key 403 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: distinction can be summed up in one word, mutual mutual 404 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: love mutual support, mutual respect, mutual energy, mutual time, healthy dependence. 405 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: It involves a mutual give and take. It's not one sided. 406 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: Both people are able to receive the support and the 407 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: encouragement and the practical help that they need. And of 408 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: course there are going to be times in which you're 409 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: going to have to support, you know, the other person more, 410 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: or they're going to have to support you more than 411 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: you're supporting them. You know, if your parent or your 412 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: sibling is really sick, it makes sense that you may 413 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: be doing more of the emotional and physical labor for 414 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: them at that time. That is nothing to shy away from. 415 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: That is not the point of this episode. You know, 416 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: life is very much defined by its uncertainty and its 417 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: ups and downs, and it's okay if you need someone 418 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more at times. You know, if you're 419 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: going through through a bit of a crisis or something 420 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: else is going on, that's healthy. It's okay for our 421 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: relationships to kind of peaque and troth and sometimes need 422 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: people more than they need you. But if that's happening 423 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: all the time, that's a problem. I think having a 424 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: healthy level of dependence on others, like I explained, you know, 425 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: being able to have that give or take depending on 426 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: what the other person is going through, being able to 427 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: call on the people in your life for support. It's 428 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: actually really positive. I don't feel like I need to 429 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: say that, but it does have a lot of proven 430 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: clinical benefits for our well being and our overall outlook 431 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: on life. They contribute to our sense of reliance, our resourcefulness. 432 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: We have a stronger sense of trust in our own abilities, 433 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: we are better at expressing our needs and our emotions, 434 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: and we have greater self esteem when we're able to 435 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: promote healthy independence and healthy dependence in our relationships. And 436 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: that all sounds really positive because it is. It's healthy, 437 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 1: and it's something that we can pursue. But when it 438 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: emerges as a problem is when you are unable to 439 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: detach you need something else for your support. You know 440 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: this person is everything to you, or you're giving someone 441 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: else everything of you beyond what could possibly be expected 442 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: in any situation. And we have to remember here that 443 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: codependence is maladaptive and it's harmful to both members of 444 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: the relationship. I read an incredible article that explained this 445 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: distinction really well, and it explained the distinction between codependence 446 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: and independence or interdependence more like it as helping versus enabling. 447 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: If you think that your relationship with someone has fallen 448 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: into a giver and a taker situation, ask yourself whether 449 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: your actions and your responses to them are helping them 450 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: or enabling them. You know, if your friend keeps coming 451 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: to you for money but never paying you back or 452 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: showing any progress towards being financially independent, this may seem 453 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: like you're helping them at the surface level. You know 454 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: you're helping them through a tough time, but it actually 455 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: may be that you're enabling their dependency on you for assistance. 456 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: I always try and frame my decisions around whether my 457 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: actions are helping someone to become self sufficient, or whether 458 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing it for myself because I want to feel better, 459 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: you know, Or I'm helping them to the point that 460 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: they know they don't need to help themselves and they 461 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: don't need to help me, right Like they're just reliant 462 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: on me for something and they're not able to take 463 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: responsibility for their problems. That's a really tricky situation to 464 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: be in, and I don't think we need to apply 465 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: that perspective to all of our relationships, but it is 466 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: something to be cognizant of doesn't mean you need to 467 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: say no or that you can't help someone out in 468 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,719 Speaker 1: a tricky situation. But when it starts to look like 469 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: enabling behavior, it probably isn't helping either of you. Maybe 470 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: you're listening to this and you're like, this is me, 471 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: this is me, I'm in this situation. I'm really struggling. 472 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: And you've been able to identify yourself as being in 473 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: a codependent situation. Whether that is with a parent, with 474 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: a romantic partner, with a friend, it really doesn't matter. 475 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: So how do we move back to a healthy level 476 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: of interdependency and dependence, and how do we restructure our 477 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: relationship with that person so that it doesn't compromise our identity, 478 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't compromise our self esteem or you know, our 479 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: entire lives are welfare. Healing a relationship from codependency, it's 480 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: going to take time, because it's like separating out someone's 481 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: addiction to you, fighting against your addiction to them. All 482 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: of that is exhausting. It's also neurologically very difficult because 483 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: when we do become reliant on anything, either a drug 484 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: or a person in this situation, what happens to our 485 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: brain is that our neurons and our synaptic pathways, they 486 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: become wired towards wanting that person or whatever it is 487 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: that we're addicted to. It's a process called long term potentiation, 488 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: whereby the more that we activate a certain pathway, the 489 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: stronger it becomes, and the harder it is to break 490 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: that pattern or consumption. And when those pathways are no 491 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: longer activated. You know, when someone is having a problem 492 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: and they go, oh my gosh, I cannot call that person, 493 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: or when someone calls you with a problem and you go, 494 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I can't help you because this is unhealthy, 495 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: it's distressing. The first step I think I would always 496 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: recommend is to get some outside help or an outside 497 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 1: an objective perspective on the relationship in question and the 498 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: problem that you're facing. It can be very difficult to 499 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: be honest with ourselves when a situation is so emotionally 500 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: charged and at times probably even tense or dangerous. So 501 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: going to a trusted friend, a mental and mental health professional, 502 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: based on whatever resource you have, just someone who's separate 503 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: from the situation. It's sometimes really important because it gives 504 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: you a logical bird's eye view, so you can see 505 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: clearly why this scenario is hurting you, why it's hurting 506 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: the other person, why it's probably really good if you 507 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: get some space, and you know, they may also just 508 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: have some really good advice, and they may be able 509 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: to provide some options to you that you haven't considered. 510 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: The next step that I think is important is to 511 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: ground yourself and why you have acknowledged that this is 512 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: maladaptive and unhealthy, and find a way to make your 513 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: thoughts and your feelings on the matter tangible. I think 514 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: this applies to even situations beyond codependency, any problem that 515 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: you have, anything you're trying to solve, making a notes 516 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: list or journaling to yourself about how you feel, why 517 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: this is difficult, why you want to change. It's so 518 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: much easier to motivate yourself or to move through a 519 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: difficult transition when you have some written reminder about why 520 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: you need to do something, why you are making that change. 521 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: This list, you know, it might include things in this 522 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 1: situation like I don't like how I'm feeling stuck, or 523 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: in this relationship, I'm not able to promote my own 524 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: dependence or I'm not able to be independent, or situations 525 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: or statements about how the situation is making you feel 526 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: and why it needs to change, and that way you 527 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: can come back to it when ever you feel yourself 528 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: slipping back into old habits or old patterns. I think 529 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: the next really valuable step to take, and if you've 530 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: listened to my Boundaries episode, this may sound really familiar, 531 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: it's to confront the person and to confront the problem 532 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 1: and have an honest conversation. I know it's really scary, 533 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: I've done it before. It is terrifying, but I think 534 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: one of the worst feelings in the world is when 535 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: someone makes a decision without consulting you or completely ghosts 536 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: to you or shuts you out. Obviously that's necessary sometimes, 537 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: and there are people who are just really bad for 538 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: our health. And you can make that cool based on 539 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: your own personal appraisal of the situation or the extent 540 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: of the codependency. But if the situation allows it, I 541 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: personally believe it's actually quite almost cruel. I think to 542 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 1: leave someone with no explanation or discussion, and you don't 543 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: need to treat it as a two way street or 544 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: like the decision is up for debate. Just simply lay 545 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: out the facts and your feelings and why you feel 546 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: like you would both benefit from this, why you would 547 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: like your situation to change, and leave it at that. 548 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: Leave it at that, you don't need to answer questions, 549 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: you don't need to justify anything, and that person may 550 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: actually surprise you and say, you know, like I've actually 551 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: been feeling this way as well, and I want our 552 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: relationship to be healthier, or you know, I want this 553 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: for us. But I think honesty is always the best 554 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: policy in emotionally sensitive situations, whatever they may be. I 555 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: think now comes the difficult part, which is sticking to 556 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: your guns, respecting your own boundaries, learning to say no 557 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: when that person pushes up against what you have decided 558 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: to do. It's okay to fail a few times to 559 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: find you know that separation hard or even painful. Like 560 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: I said, you're neurologically and physically inclined to feel this way. 561 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: But if as the giver you're still answering their calls 562 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: at any time of the night, or as the taker, 563 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: you're finding that your emotional state is based on how 564 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: that person is treating you or the attention they're giving you, 565 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: and you cannot fight that urge, then the boundary I 566 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: don't think has been fully set or it hasn't been 567 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: fully respected. So make some non negotiables or some rules 568 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: for yourself in these situations, and I mean rules, not 569 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: things that you would like to do, but tangible decisions 570 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: you're going to be accountable to yourself for. It might 571 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: also help to have someone else who can kind of 572 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 1: help you stay on track, or who you can kind 573 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: of answer to or update them on your progress, and 574 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: who can help you kind of question your decisions, not 575 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: necessarily make you feel guilty, but make you appreciate the 576 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: reasoning behind maybe why you're struggling to keep that boundary 577 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: after a slip up, whatever it may be. It's also 578 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: really crucial to reflect on how it's lefty feeling. You know, 579 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: did you let someone back into your life in the 580 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: way that you didn't necessarily want, or if you felt 581 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: that you came back to someone you didn't want to 582 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 1: be reliant on. Don't suppress that feeling, don't suppress that shame, 583 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: almost sit with it. Process it. Think about how you 584 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: might change your future actions to avoid this situation. Be 585 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: future looking, imagine where you would like to be be. Like, Okay, 586 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: last night, I went over to this person's house and 587 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: I helped them out even though I know this is codependent, 588 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: even though I really want some separation, and now I 589 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: feel really bad, I feel really really crap about myself. 590 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: Instead of being like, oh my god, I don't want 591 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: to feel that, that's really uncomfortable, allow yourself to feel 592 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: that way and then look to the future. And I 593 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: guess that applies for everything, not just baking fee of codependency. 594 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: When we look towards the future, our progress is going 595 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: to be more steady. Obviously, you can follow these steps, 596 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: you can take my advice, do everything right. But the 597 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: thing is about any relationship is that it's always complicated, 598 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: it's always nuanced, and you know what you're going through 599 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: more than I ever could. So take it slow, be 600 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: kind to yourself, and I really hope that this information 601 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: has helped you. I feel like I've learned so much 602 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: from this discussion and this research, especially about so many 603 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: of the misconceptions around codependency and how we can distinguish 604 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: it from healthy dependency and interdependency. It's just such a 605 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: fascinating topic, especially for our twenties, where I feel like 606 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: a lot of us have really intense relationships with people. 607 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: Whether that is really good friends or the people that 608 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: we're dating, and it can really feel like it's just 609 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 1: us two in this bubble, and one of us is 610 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: really reliant on the other person and is taking so much, 611 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: and the other person can't leave, and it's just really 612 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: emotionally volatile. So if you can relate, you deserve a 613 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: lot of credit. I'm sure it's really difficult, but hopefully 614 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: this episode gave you some sense of the future and 615 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: some sense of what you can do. Thank you for 616 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: listening today. I think that's all that we have time for. 617 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: I'm really hopeful and yeah, hoping that you enjoyed it. 618 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: I really did as well. So if you did enjoy 619 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: this episode, if you learn something that's the most important, 620 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: please feel free to leave a five star review on 621 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. If 622 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: you want to follow us on Instagram, that's where I 623 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: let my listeners decide what I record for the next week, 624 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: so you can contribute to what you want to hear. 625 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: And thank you so much for listening. Thank you so 626 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. I feel very grateful that people 627 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: want to hear what we're discussing, and people are interested 628 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: in these topics. As much as I am and are 629 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: willing to learn as much as I really like learning. 630 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for joining us for this journey, 631 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: and have an absolutely lovely week.