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Speaker 2: co slash audio. Welcome to hop tonight here at the volume.
Speaker 2: Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope all of you guys are
Speaker 2: having a great week well. Coming into the series, we
Speaker 2: were hopeful that things would be competitive, that they'd be interesting,
Speaker 2: And here we are after three games of the NBA
Speaker 2: Finals and the Pacers are up to one two games
Speaker 2: away from potentially stealing what would be one of the
Speaker 2: craziest NBA championships that I've seen in my time cover
Speaker 2: in the NBA. I can think of nobody better to
Speaker 2: break this down with then Colin Cowhard, who has been
Speaker 2: kind enough to give us his time tonight and join
Speaker 2: the show. Colin, where is your head at? After three
Speaker 2: games of the NBA Finals?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the Pacers, you know, and you and I
Speaker 1: had talked about this. The Celtics this year were better
Speaker 1: on the road than at home. Denver is the same team.
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City is not the same team on the road.
Speaker 1: They're not there bench players. Their rotational players are young.
Speaker 1: That's the downside the youth. They are not the same
Speaker 1: team on the road. They're very vulnerable. Tonight they had
Speaker 1: nineteen turnovers. They got really sloppy. I didn't think Sga
Speaker 1: ever got into a great rhythm. He did a great
Speaker 1: job coaching and prodding and poking his team. But my
Speaker 1: takeaway is like tonight was a game that you know,
Speaker 1: in football, there's the old thing about you can steal
Speaker 1: yards and field position, and over the course of a
Speaker 1: game you get better field position. I thought the Pacers
Speaker 1: between steals blocks they had eleven between offensive rebounds. Stole
Speaker 1: about eight to ten points tonight, just sneaky points, you know,
Speaker 1: like one of them is McConnell on the inbounds. I
Speaker 1: think from Caruso feels at point that's a huge, huge play,
Speaker 1: especially when you're the home team in the crowded erupts.
Speaker 1: And I just thought, over the course of a game,
Speaker 1: just eight four or five baskets either denied or provided
Speaker 1: sneaky points. And that's kind of the difference in the game.
Speaker 1: It was just I mean that game until the last
Speaker 1: three minutes, I didn't know who was gonna win it.
Speaker 1: It was just a very tight game. And I think
Speaker 1: they deserve a lot of credit. I mean Indiana's bench, Jesus,
Speaker 1: I mean that again, bench at home, bench on the road. Matherin,
Speaker 1: who starts sometimes for them, Who's that reminds me a
Speaker 1: little bit of a little Westbrook, you know. He Westbrook
Speaker 1: was hyper athletic. Matherin was a quarterback and a hockey
Speaker 1: player in Canada. Goes to Arizona, as you know, crushes it.
Speaker 1: Super athletic, but not as out of control as Westbrook.
Speaker 1: Like he's gonna be a He's gonna be a great
Speaker 1: player in this League. But I guess that's my The
Speaker 1: Pacers just a lot of blocks and steals and effort
Speaker 1: points and that's the ballgame.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I had my eye on Matherin and
Speaker 2: McConnell in particular off of the Pacers bench coming into
Speaker 2: this series, not because I'm an Arizona fan, although obviously
Speaker 2: it's been awesome watching those guys just kill it. I mean,
Speaker 2: twenty eight points in an NBA Finals game. That is
Speaker 2: like a real ether in the cat for a young
Speaker 2: basketball player. And honestly, like when you I've had a
Speaker 2: lot of male back questions and things like that from
Speaker 2: fans over the course of the last couple of weeks
Speaker 2: who've been asking, like, what's the next step for the Pacers,
Speaker 2: Like where's their next leap? And it's that kid, it's him,
Speaker 2: it's him becoming by age twenty five to twenty six,
Speaker 2: an All Star level guard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I said this, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if you and I talked about this. Oklahoma City's
Speaker 1: got more depth, but there's this sense that, Okay, Oklahoma
Speaker 1: City's talents here in Indiana's is below and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't really buy that. I think I
Speaker 1: think McConnell. I think TJ. McConnell's a really, really good
Speaker 1: basketball player. I think Matherin, who started some games for
Speaker 1: them this year. He started, he was like their third
Speaker 1: or fourth leading scorer. He's exploding. I mean, we all
Speaker 1: know that Siakam and Halle are great. Miles Turner's defense
Speaker 1: in the second half was unbelievable. Like, I don't think
Speaker 1: the gap in talent, especially when you go back home,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's that. I mean Obi Toppin his
Speaker 1: put them up by seven and then he got a
Speaker 1: block on the other end. Like, I think the talent
Speaker 1: disparity here is inches, not feet. I think Indiana's got
Speaker 1: a real team and they and they have a lot
Speaker 1: of different players. I mean Obi Toppins hyper athletic, Miles
Speaker 1: Turner's a rim protector, Say Ockham's got a pretty touch.
Speaker 1: Halle's more assist than scoring, but can do both. Nie
Speaker 1: Smith can hit threes. McConnell's the spark plug, Matherin's the
Speaker 1: young emerging, hyper athletic guy. I mean, they got a
Speaker 1: lot of levers to pull. So I watched this. It's
Speaker 1: just fun watching this series, and I'm like, at the
Speaker 1: end of the game. I'm like, is he Indian? They
Speaker 1: have more good players? I mean, they just pulled a
Speaker 1: lot of levers tonight.
Speaker 2: I do think they're better down the roster in terms
Speaker 2: of just the level of like consistency they get from
Speaker 2: all of their supporting players get There's like I'm watching
Speaker 2: the end of the second quarter, like Ben Shephard's out
Speaker 2: there and matherin and uh McConnell, and I'm sitting there
Speaker 2: and I'm like, this is Carlisle riding his bench in
Speaker 2: like what is typically a starting group session. I think
Speaker 2: where you see the talent gap between okay See and
Speaker 2: Indiana is like just that like top end shot creation,
Speaker 2: like when things really bogged down and both defenses are
Speaker 2: locked in, Shay is just so much better at like
Speaker 2: getting to his spots and finding those like shots that
Speaker 2: he can make. I think I do think that Oklahoma
Speaker 2: City at their best, their ceiling is higher than Indiana's,
Speaker 2: like when they're moving the ball well and they're knocking
Speaker 2: down shots. And for the record, like if you're in
Speaker 2: a matchup like this where you're a substantial underdog, you're
Speaker 2: trying to create variants, You're trying to create margin and
Speaker 2: all the stuff you're talking about. I agree with you.
Speaker 2: They won this game in the margins. They won this
Speaker 2: game forcing turnovers, blocking shots at the rim, and ball
Speaker 2: pressuring Shae Gildas Alexander so much that he looked exhausted
Speaker 2: by the end of the game. And this is all
Speaker 2: low hanging fruit in basketball that's available for basically everybody.
Speaker 2: Anybody can pick up the ball full court, anybody can
Speaker 2: be aggressive in rotation and play passing lanes. There's a
Speaker 2: certain athletic minimum you need to have, but anybody's capable
Speaker 2: of taking advantage of these margins. And to me, that's
Speaker 2: been the story of the Pacers this entire postseason run
Speaker 2: is they have been so good on the margins. They're
Speaker 2: making it so that the the the their variance is
Speaker 2: much lower than other teams because they're getting so much
Speaker 2: of that low hanging fruit every single game.
Speaker 1: So Oklahoma City is two and four on the road
Speaker 1: in the last three playoff rounds. So we have found
Speaker 1: the hole. You know, every boxer, every baseball player, even
Speaker 1: Barry Bonds when he was on cattle steroids, there's there's
Speaker 1: a there's a there's part of the strikestone he can't hit.
Speaker 1: Usually for a batter. It's on the hands and we're
Speaker 1: looking for where's the hole in Oklahoma City's game and
Speaker 1: it's this young team on the road. There is a
Speaker 1: great variance what you get at home and what you
Speaker 1: get on the road, and we found it. And Indiana
Speaker 1: is a tremendously good home team. It just it's it's
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Miles Turner doesn't get a lot
Speaker 1: of love. You know, his asthetic, he'll hit the corner
Speaker 1: of three. But that dude in the second half. I mean,
Speaker 1: Homegrown was great early, but Miles Turner is one of
Speaker 1: those guys that in the league, everybody knows about Miles Turner.
Speaker 1: I mean, if he's on the market, Lakers included, there'll
Speaker 1: be multiple Sooners for Miles Turner. Everybody in the league
Speaker 1: gets it. But on this team, you know, like tonight,
Speaker 1: we're watching McConnell and 'ren Halliburt and we're always watching Siakam.
Speaker 1: I thought, I thought in the second half, I thought
Speaker 1: Myles Turner was huge.
Speaker 2: I agree he he The specific dynamic he struggled with
Speaker 2: a little bit in this series is Carlisle has him
Speaker 2: coming way out to the perimeter to show at the
Speaker 2: level of these ball screens and the thunderguards are just
Speaker 2: so fast that he's had some trouble containing him there.
Speaker 2: But in that second in that second half, it was
Speaker 2: almost like he found his second win to where he
Speaker 2: was moving a little better so he wasn't losing contain
Speaker 2: as much. Carlile had him start to be more aggressive
Speaker 2: and attack the ball in more of like a blitz two,
Speaker 2: which he forced a couple turnovers that way, and then
Speaker 2: at the rim, like Miles, Turner has always been one
Speaker 2: of the best like shot blockers in the league. He
Speaker 2: always racks up high shot block totals and got Chet
Speaker 2: at the rim that closed out. He's got crazy length
Speaker 2: that close out on the three point shot from Chet
Speaker 2: late that was a big one. The stuff with Mattherin
Speaker 2: and McConnell I find really fascinating. The reason why I
Speaker 2: was keyed in on them to start the series is
Speaker 2: when you're playing these young, super athletic teams like Oklahoma City,
Speaker 2: the guys that become super important are your athletes, the
Speaker 2: guys that have like some sort of physical trait that's
Speaker 2: tough to match up with. TJ McConnell is unassuming, but
Speaker 2: he is actually one of the very best guards in
Speaker 2: the NBA beating people off the dribble. So he's immensely
Speaker 2: valuable in this matchup because he can get that first
Speaker 2: bit of dribble penetration that breaks down Oklahoma City's defense.
Speaker 2: And he's such a good staunch athlete, like in terms
Speaker 2: of like his but being a fire hydrant, low center
Speaker 2: of gravity guy. He can pressure the ball and pick
Speaker 2: up full court. He had three steals on baseline inbounds
Speaker 2: in this game. Those were huge sequences in this game.
Speaker 2: And then Ben matherin same sort of thing. He is
Speaker 2: capable against a very athletic thunder team of getting to
Speaker 2: his spots and rising up and knocking down shots because
Speaker 2: he's a supreme athlete that can handle the ball. Nemhard
Speaker 2: is a good ballhandler who's not a supreme athlete, and
Speaker 2: Nie Smith is an elite athlete who's not a good
Speaker 2: ball handler. TJ and Ben are both great athletes and
Speaker 2: great ball handlers, and that's made them very valuable in
Speaker 2: this matchup. And again, like Ben that like we're we
Speaker 2: just saw a young player put up a massive twenty
Speaker 2: eight point game in a in a must win NBA
Speaker 2: Finals game like that is a huge moment for a
Speaker 2: young player there, and like as far as like zooming
Speaker 2: out and looking at the series, like I still lean
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City. We have seen before teams like you know
Speaker 2: the series. This actually reminds me a lot of is
Speaker 2: Cleveland in twenty fifteen versus Golden State, where Golden State
Speaker 2: is clearly the better team, but they're young and they're inexperienced,
Speaker 2: and it's their first Finals appearance and they look a
Speaker 2: little shook from the environment, and the Lebron goes up
Speaker 2: to one on them. Now, obviously Indiana doesn't have the
Speaker 2: Lebron element, but there was obviously way less talent down
Speaker 2: the roster, but Indiana does have more veteran experience. They're
Speaker 2: an older team, right, But what happens with Indiana here
Speaker 2: is they're up to one, but Golden State was the
Speaker 2: better team. They came in, won game four, then they
Speaker 2: went home in won game five. Then they went back
Speaker 2: to Cleveland and they won in game six. I am
Speaker 2: going to give Indiana a good chance to win at
Speaker 2: least one more home game, So I do think this
Speaker 2: has a good chance to go seven. But I would
Speaker 2: still make Oklahoma City the favorite at this point before
Speaker 2: I kick it to you just so you know. The
Speaker 2: Thunder are still from DraftKings minus two thirty to win
Speaker 2: the series and the Thunder are minus six favorites in
Speaker 2: game four. Where are you at in the series moving
Speaker 2: forward at this point?
Speaker 1: Well, I you know, Game seven's in Oklahoma City and
Speaker 1: they're really good at home. And again, bench guys rotational
Speaker 1: guys are different players at home. I mean the Indiana's
Speaker 1: bench in the second quarters night was insane. I mean
Speaker 1: it was literally, I mean I think Carlisle was shook.
Speaker 1: It was just like, wow, that's one of their best
Speaker 1: quarters of the playoffs. I think, like I one of
Speaker 1: the things that was a little surprising to me, I
Speaker 1: thought Oklahoma City looked tired in the fourth and now
Speaker 1: now the first half it was sixty four sixty. I
Speaker 1: think the pace was in it would totally Indiana's pace.
Speaker 1: It slowed down as games can is that situationally as
Speaker 1: the possessions get very, very big. But you noticed it too.
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, see looked a little gas in the fourth.
Speaker 1: They had a bad fourth quarter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the advantage of ball pressure. Like there's
Speaker 2: been a lot of talk about the coverages I have
Speaker 2: had my concerns with how they've used Turner because I
Speaker 2: think Turner is a very good shot blocker, so I
Speaker 2: want him at the rim. I don't think he's particularly fast,
Speaker 2: so I don't want him on the perimeter, so like
Speaker 2: I've wanted him sitting further back. But a lot of
Speaker 2: the full court ball pressure stuff has also had some
Speaker 2: downsides in that. One of the things Oklahoma City will
Speaker 2: do is they'll have Hartenstein come out or check come out,
Speaker 2: and they'll screen like almost at half court while SHA's
Speaker 2: battling the ball pressure, and then he gets ahead of
Speaker 2: steam from like sixty feet away from the rim, and
Speaker 2: he got a lot of layups early in the game
Speaker 2: out of stuff like that. And so there's a downside
Speaker 2: to ball pressure in that you can beat ball pressure
Speaker 2: and get dribble penetration. The upside with ball pressure is
Speaker 2: in the big picture, which is for forty eight minutes
Speaker 2: in front of that crazy home crowd, when you're facing
Speaker 2: Nie Smith and Matherin and Themhart and all these guys
Speaker 2: just in your jersey the entire game down the stretch,
Speaker 2: you just don't have the legs because beating that ball
Speaker 2: pressure just takes it out of your legs, and so
Speaker 2: there's no doubt that like Indiana played the long game
Speaker 2: tonight in Oklahoma City controlled at various points, but down
Speaker 2: the stretch, Shay had his hands on his knees. He
Speaker 2: was trying to grift a little bit more down the stretch,
Speaker 2: looking for foul calls. Like you can tell he was tired.
Speaker 1: You know the other thing that you know, this is
Speaker 1: just something you don't talk about a lot. We don't,
Speaker 1: analysts don't. But I remember talking to Mark Warkin team
Speaker 1: I covered him at UNLB with Jerry Tarkany, and he
Speaker 1: was an executive in the league, and he used to
Speaker 1: always say the most underappreciated part of those great Michael
Speaker 1: Jordan Bulls teams was their length. He was like Rodman
Speaker 1: was long, Pippin was wrong, Luke Longley was long, everybody.
Speaker 1: But Steve Kerr was long like Ron Harper, and he
Speaker 1: was just like they just got their hand on the balls.
Speaker 1: Indiana is long, when Poppin' Sayakam Turner, Halliburton's long there tonight,
Speaker 1: just to show you their length. Okase had four blocks,
Speaker 1: Indiana had eleven. Okayse had six deals, Indiana had thirteen.
Speaker 1: How many balls? How many times? In this game. Did
Speaker 1: you see the ball loose around the free throw line
Speaker 1: and it was just a pacer that got their hand
Speaker 1: on it, and keep when there are certain TJ. McConnell's
Speaker 1: obviously not long, but he's feisty and quick, so he
Speaker 1: gets his hand and he's fast. But dude, when they've
Speaker 1: got Turner and Halliburton and Poppin, that is the length
Speaker 1: of the Pacers, and I thought it really frustrated. OKC
Speaker 1: chat Holmgren had multiple shots blocked, So we don't talk
Speaker 1: a lot about that. Rebounding is a lot of things
Speaker 1: beyond late, but length gives you those extra possessions and
Speaker 1: touches and disruptions. Blocks and steals tonight, I mean, are
Speaker 1: just totally one sided. And I think again that's stealing points,
Speaker 1: which I thought the Pacers did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there was a play where Jadub got a
Speaker 2: clean corner catch out of the left corner. You might
Speaker 2: remember this one in the in the first half and
Speaker 2: or no, it was in the it was in the
Speaker 2: second half. It was in the early part of the
Speaker 2: second half, and Jadub drove Basine had a dunk, but
Speaker 2: Tyreee came over and Tyreese has long arms, like Tyrese
Speaker 2: has got length to your point, and he's the longest
Speaker 2: point guard in the league. Yeah, and he's got reasonable
Speaker 2: vertical athleticism too. So he got up and he contested
Speaker 2: Jadub and Jadab missed the dunk. He missed the dunk.
Speaker 2: And there there have been a few plays in this series,
Speaker 2: like I actually think Halliburton has been a very good
Speaker 2: defensive player in this entire playoff run. Like he's been sneaky,
Speaker 2: really good because he's the thing within this is to
Speaker 2: Carlisle's credit, everyone's committed to doing the job. And then
Speaker 2: ty Reese like plays hard, like he's got his limitations.
Speaker 2: He's not very big and strong and it kind of
Speaker 2: looks like a a chicken run around his head cut
Speaker 2: off sometimes on defense, but like he's got the length
Speaker 2: to be impactful in that in that situation. And yeah,
Speaker 2: like there was a there was a stretch there late
Speaker 2: in the game where Carlisle rides top in for that
Speaker 2: exact reason, like him being able to go over the
Speaker 2: top of Oklahoma City on offense or meet somebody at
Speaker 2: the summit at the rim on the other end, Like
Speaker 2: those were that those have been huge parts of Indiana
Speaker 2: success throughout this entire postseason run. And again, like you
Speaker 2: want to know how you play passing lanes with length,
Speaker 2: because all of a sudden it looks open, the passer
Speaker 2: makes the read and it's not open because you have
Speaker 2: the ability to close that ground. The one thing I
Speaker 2: will say, and this is one of the reasons why
Speaker 2: I still lean towards Oklahoma City to win the series,
Speaker 2: there was a stretch in the third quarter where I
Speaker 2: thought Oklahoma City really leveraged their athleticism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're a good third quarter team too. They've done
Speaker 1: this in the playoffs multiple times.
Speaker 2: Yes, And like going back, even I thought Game two
Speaker 2: felt like the entire night felt like that. I don't
Speaker 2: think Indiana can beat Oklahoma City in Oklahoma City in
Speaker 2: a must win game because I think they can leverage
Speaker 2: their defense and physicality and overall athleticism to the point
Speaker 2: that's like almost too much for them to overcome. So
Speaker 2: I think Indiana's pathway is they have to win the
Speaker 2: two home games. They absolutely can. For the record, I'm
Speaker 2: not saying Oklahoma City is like the surefire going to
Speaker 2: still win the series. I lean towards Oklahoma City, but
Speaker 2: Indiana I think has to win on Friday, and I
Speaker 2: think they have to win next week on Thursday. I
Speaker 2: think that's their path.
Speaker 1: Well, in the first six minutes of the game, Oklahoma
Speaker 1: City was very disruptive. The Pacers were frustrated, the starters,
Speaker 1: they just weren't getting good looks. So I mean Oklahoma
Speaker 1: when they weren't gassed late and they're disruptive, there's no
Speaker 1: getting around it. They're just fast and long and it's
Speaker 1: almost collegiate like we've talked about. It doesn't look like
Speaker 1: other defenses. So you know, I just don't want to
Speaker 1: fall for this because I fell for it with Denver
Speaker 1: and Boston, and I'm like, oh, these are going to
Speaker 1: be dynasties and there are holes in Oklahoma City. I mean,
Speaker 1: they'll probably lose Jalen Williams. Eventually, they can't pay everybody,
Speaker 1: and they're going to pay home Grin because he's just
Speaker 1: you know, he's just physically a different There's not a
Speaker 1: lot of him out there. They're gonna pay SGA and
Speaker 1: you know how it works now you can't pay three guys.
Speaker 1: You know, Boston's going to go through this. So I
Speaker 1: mean it's I know a lot of people look at
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City and think, oh boy, this is going to
Speaker 1: be something that they're going to be bad for the league.
Speaker 1: It My take is this series is great. I mean,
Speaker 1: we have two of the games in this series have
Speaker 1: been all timers. And I also think I think Indiana
Speaker 1: is a real team. I mean, I'm watching matherin tonight
Speaker 1: and I again, I think he's got a little bit
Speaker 1: of Westbrook, but he's not out of control. He's he's
Speaker 1: a little bit more refined at this age. He was
Speaker 1: a better college player than Westbrook. Again, more defined, and
Speaker 1: I think he was the pac twelve player of the
Speaker 1: year if I recall when he like, yeah, he was
Speaker 1: a great player. But my takeaway I watched him and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, they're gonna be good. Halliburton and him
Speaker 1: and McConnell and and sayah, come, it's like Indiana's going
Speaker 1: nowhere this I I don't know. I I said this
Speaker 1: going back to the Cleveland series. I love watching the
Speaker 1: Pacers play. I love their style, I love their I
Speaker 1: love Halliburton. I just there's just there's something about a team.
Speaker 1: There's a joy when Indiana plays. They are having a
Speaker 1: really good time, and I think it just comes to
Speaker 1: the TV.
Speaker 2: Agree Like I I understand some of the the the
Speaker 2: negativity surrounding the Finals in the sense that like it
Speaker 2: lacks some of that juice for you know, especially for
Speaker 2: casual yeah Game two, huge names, yeah yeah, and Game
Speaker 2: two is super boring, like and it like, and it
Speaker 2: obviously has not been hitting great TV ratings. But there
Speaker 2: is a natural ebb and flow with the cycle of
Speaker 2: the NBA as stars age in and out, and we're
Speaker 2: definitely in one of those roles right now. But I
Speaker 2: do think that the Pacers are providing an excellent showcase
Speaker 2: for another up and coming team in the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 2: And by the way, the East is pretty wide open,
Speaker 2: Like you could argue Indy has every bit as good
Speaker 2: a chance to make it back to the Finals next
Speaker 2: year as Oklahoma City does with how open things are
Speaker 2: in the Eastern Conference, right. I love the point you
Speaker 2: made about Olahoma City, like it will get tougher, Like
Speaker 2: I think Oklahoma City needs to get this one, because
Speaker 2: the reality is is that once you start it to
Speaker 2: your point, if you pay all three of those guys
Speaker 2: max maxes, and by the way, they're not gonna be
Speaker 2: regular maxes, these are gonna be all NBA players. They're
Speaker 2: gonna be super maxis, you know, Like, and so once
Speaker 2: you pay all those guys, they're gonna basically have to
Speaker 2: surround them with a bunch of guys on rookie contracts.
Speaker 2: Like I think they're gonna end up using all these
Speaker 2: draft pick draft picks. They have to just cycle role
Speaker 2: players through and they're gonna be hunting like three four
Speaker 2: year college guys that play for major programs Kansas and
Speaker 2: Villanova that they can trust to come in and play
Speaker 2: role player basketball in the end. That's what I think
Speaker 2: that they're gonna end up. That's what I think Sam
Speaker 2: Price's gonna end up doing, And so their margin will
Speaker 2: get smaller because they won't be surrounded by as much talent.
Speaker 2: This is a particularly important series for them to win.
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Speaker 1: com to find your cable channel.
Speaker 2: I wanted to move on to the Knicks. So I
Speaker 2: see this support this morning, and it's from Sham's talking
Speaker 2: about how they're just calling up around all these big
Speaker 2: shots coaches in the league, Jason Kidd email Udoka, Quinn Snyder,
Speaker 2: Chris Finch. What do you make of this bizarre behavior
Speaker 2: from the Knicks right now?
Speaker 1: I'm not a tinfoil hat guy, but James Dolan, who's
Speaker 1: been in a band I'm not sure if he still is,
Speaker 1: views himself as an artist and that's why he is.
Speaker 1: His His greatest achievement is not the Knicks. I mean
Speaker 1: he inherited the cable vision from his dad. Right, it's
Speaker 1: the Sphere in Vegas, which is a remarkable Have you
Speaker 1: been there? I think you have been there.
Speaker 2: I've been there six times. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's a remarkable musical engagement achievement all time
Speaker 1: in the world, and that's really where his heart is.
Speaker 1: Irving aves Off a former great promoter, now I think
Speaker 1: he's MGM management. He is one of his closest friends.
Speaker 1: He was, you know, he was a had a record label.
Speaker 1: That's who. That's who James Dolan is. So when he
Speaker 1: wants to get a GM, he goes after a star
Speaker 1: Phil Jackson. Then he wanted Steve k and Amari Stodamire
Speaker 1: on Bad Knees out of Phoenix, and Tibbs isn't his
Speaker 1: kind of guy. So who does he go after? Jason Kidd,
Speaker 1: who's a star. He's interested in Kevin Durant, who's a star.
Speaker 1: That's who James Dolan is. He hangs around stars, he
Speaker 1: loves stars. He's a creative. This is not a criticism,
Speaker 1: but I think he listened to his players grumble. You know,
Speaker 1: he sat down with his players and again he relates
Speaker 1: to artists and athletes and stars. Just go look at
Speaker 1: the history. And when he was doing the Spear for
Speaker 1: two years, he was disengaged from the team, and they
Speaker 1: got very patient and very pragmatic and very BASKETBALLI and
Speaker 1: very villanova ish and that's and that's Tibbs. And so
Speaker 1: you get rid of Tibbs. It's not the same culture,
Speaker 1: it's not the same team. You still have the Villanova guys,
Speaker 1: but it won't feel the same. So it just it
Speaker 1: just feels like James, and I don't. I almost, you know,
Speaker 1: he reminds me a little bit of Jim and that
Speaker 1: Ersay would rather sit with his guitar and hang out
Speaker 1: with Dylan outside of football more than anything else. And
Speaker 1: I think James Dolan's a little bit of that. And
Speaker 1: I think he's an emotional guy. He's an artist. He
Speaker 1: relates to artists and he listens to his stars. And
Speaker 1: he didn't have a plan, and I think it's a big,
Speaker 1: big mistake. This, by the way, this is what every
Speaker 1: Nick fan dreaded, is that when he came back from
Speaker 1: the sphere he would get hands on And there are
Speaker 1: various reports on who has their fingerprints on this, but
Speaker 1: they're not getting rid of TIBs. He just signed a
Speaker 1: new deal without Dolan, you know, acquiescing to a suggestion
Speaker 1: or making the move himself. So in the end, this
Speaker 1: is what the Knicks man. This league's crazy owners in
Speaker 1: the NFL and the NBA. You know that all owners
Speaker 1: now Jason are billionaires. It was ten years ago they weren't.
Speaker 1: They made they were worth six hundred million or eight
Speaker 1: hundred million. They wouldn't blow out staffs, They didn't want
Speaker 1: to write a forty six million dollar check. That is
Speaker 1: a rounding air. And now of these owners and they're all.
Speaker 1: I see it in the NFL all the time, guys
Speaker 1: will just blow out staffs. David Tepper write a sixty
Speaker 1: eighty million dollar check. The owners didn't want to do
Speaker 1: that eight ten, twelve years ago. They do now, So
Speaker 1: I don't know who they're gonna land. They they I mean,
Speaker 1: they've been turned out by seven coaches, all the good ones,
Speaker 1: Finch and Emoduka and Jason Kidd, and they're just getting
Speaker 1: turned down by everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, matt Ishbia blew out his staff twice within two
Speaker 2: years of owning the team.
Speaker 1: Is it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2: I uh, you know, it's it's fascinating because, like I
Speaker 2: tried to look at it in a very open minded way,
Speaker 2: because like I actually do think Jason Kid's a better
Speaker 2: coach now than he gets credit for a couple of
Speaker 2: years ago. I wasn't super high on him, but he,
Speaker 2: just like anybody else, as a competitor, has been doing
Speaker 2: it for a while now and he's gotten pretty good
Speaker 2: at it. Like I was looking at the Knicks for
Speaker 2: a second, like I agree with you in terms of
Speaker 2: the kind of topsy turvy unstable nature with which you
Speaker 2: look and you portray to people when you fire your
Speaker 2: coach in a situation like this. But I also think
Speaker 2: Tibbs left some meat on the bone with this next team.
Speaker 2: I thought they underachieved all season, Like right out the gates,
Speaker 2: they underachieved.
Speaker 1: He's not a creative offensively, He's not. The team got
Speaker 1: very predictable offensively.
Speaker 2: I thought the major issue with this team schematically was spacing,
Speaker 2: and it actually impacted both ends of the floor. On offense,
Speaker 2: the meant what you're mentioning in terms of creative offense,
Speaker 2: like his what he did on offense in terms of
Speaker 2: his creativity. The spacing for this team was extremely poor,
Speaker 2: which made life very difficult, but it had a trickle
Speaker 2: down effect in the sense that poor spacing also affects
Speaker 2: your transition defense, Like if you don't have your guys
Speaker 2: situated in proper spaces on the floor, then on missus
Speaker 2: and turnovers, you don't have guys in position to be
Speaker 2: back in transition defense. And the Pacers annihilated them in
Speaker 2: transition in worse than ever in Game six, like embarrassing fashion.
Speaker 2: In Game six is Siakam and everyone else was just
Speaker 2: getting run out lay up after runout dunk after runout layups.
Speaker 2: So like I did think there was like a defensible
Speaker 2: case to move on from TIBs to more of a tactician.
Speaker 2: I actually see Jason Kidd is a solid option in
Speaker 2: the sense that he was a master of modern four
Speaker 2: out spacing with Luca when he was there, which actually
Speaker 2: I think is a really natural fit with Brunson, and
Speaker 2: Brunson co played for Kid before, so there's like some
Speaker 2: natural stuff there. And then he did a good job
Speaker 2: with transition defense with the MAVs despite them not being
Speaker 2: super athletics, so I'd give him credit for that. That
Speaker 2: would work. The thing there is it's just unrealistic, and
Speaker 2: if I'm Jason Kidd, why would like I don't actually
Speaker 2: see the Knicks as that grade of a job, like
Speaker 2: insane New York pressure. The roster is really good, but
Speaker 2: it's not amazing.
Speaker 1: And hell, by the way, Mikhale Bridges wants a new contract.
Speaker 1: OG's getting paid, Brunson's getting paid like the Mitchell Robinson.
Speaker 1: These guys are getting paid like that. Dallas think Lively's
Speaker 1: not getting paid, Cooper Flag won't get paid. I don't
Speaker 1: know of Max Christy doesn't cost much. AD's getting paid,
Speaker 1: but you get twenty four and eleven. Like I look
Speaker 1: at Dallas and I'm like, I get excellence when they're healthy,
Speaker 1: and I get an incredible top end with Lively and Flagg.
Speaker 1: I know what the Knicks are and there's a ceiling
Speaker 1: and I see it all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Like I don't see it as being the
Speaker 2: kind of job that Jason Kidd would be willing to
Speaker 2: basically sabotage his situation and force his way there. And
Speaker 2: then like the other names I saw, I didn't even
Speaker 2: particularly like ima Udoka is a motivator, that's like his
Speaker 2: primary role. I don't think that's a specific need for
Speaker 2: the Knicks. Like I think the specific thing that Nick's
Speaker 2: need is just someone to come in and take them
Speaker 2: to the next level in terms of their offensive organization
Speaker 2: and their spacing, which will lead to them having a
Speaker 2: bunch of additional benefits and transition defense. I understand there's
Speaker 2: a hesitancy to call a guy like Mike Malone, and
Speaker 2: the reason why is because he has a reputation for
Speaker 2: being a hard ass and Tibbs was kind of a
Speaker 2: hard and like, I don't think they want to go
Speaker 2: down that route again. But there's like hard ass and
Speaker 2: then there's TIBs, Like Mike Malone leaned on his starters
Speaker 2: big minutes, but still not even close to what Tibbs did.
Speaker 2: And one of the things I'll say about Mike Malone,
Speaker 2: he was an excellent defense and spacing coach. He made
Speaker 2: a championship defense out of non championship defensive talent, and
Speaker 2: they were always consistently one of the best floor spacing
Speaker 2: teams in the league. And they were very good. And
Speaker 2: again we can we got to at least Acknowledge. Jokis
Speaker 2: was there, so k makes it a lot easier obviously,
Speaker 2: but he specifically was very good at making spacing opportunities
Speaker 2: out of non spacers, guys like Aaron Gordon, guys like
Speaker 2: Christian Brown, guys like Bruce Brown over the years, guys
Speaker 2: like uh Russell Westbrook. Even so like fitting a guy
Speaker 2: like Josh Hart, Mitchell Robinson, some of these non shooting
Speaker 2: types of players, even mckail Bridges, who has struggled a
Speaker 2: lot as a shooter in this postseason run. Like, I
Speaker 2: actually think Mike Malone is a really good fit for
Speaker 2: this NIXT team. I think He's a completely reasonable option
Speaker 2: that doesn't involve you doing something insane like Paul around
Speaker 2: the league. Because here's what gets crazy. Let's say you
Speaker 2: call the MAVs and they're like, okay, sure, let's talk
Speaker 2: about Jason Kidd. What are you going to offer us?
Speaker 2: We already acknowledged this is not a championship roster, So
Speaker 2: you're going to give up assets for a coach. You
Speaker 2: need players, You need talent in there, so like it's
Speaker 2: specifically defensive talent your front court. So I don't really
Speaker 2: understand what the endgame is here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I am on the short list of
Speaker 1: people that think Dallas is going to be really good,
Speaker 1: really fast. I think Flag and Lively are you know,
Speaker 1: they're duke guys. They're gonna be quick learners. They play
Speaker 1: at the highest level of competition Collegiately. I think One's
Speaker 1: going to be One's twenty one or twenty two. He's
Speaker 1: going to be a rim protector for the next decade.
Speaker 1: So Cooper Flag can be out in transition, won't have
Speaker 1: to worry about being down low and getting jammed up,
Speaker 1: which has always been what Lebron loves. He doesn't want
Speaker 1: to be messed up. In that junk. He wants to
Speaker 1: you know, he wants that ball out and up the court.
Speaker 1: So h and I just you know, PJ. Washington, Christy.
Speaker 1: If Kyrie comes back, I'm not sure what they're going
Speaker 1: to do with him. I would forget the taxes, forget
Speaker 1: everything else. I would not lead Dallas. I think Dallas
Speaker 1: is a good job. The situation that's fascinating to me
Speaker 1: is Houston because I think I think right now san
Speaker 1: Antonio is about ready to pop. So I like san
Speaker 1: Antonio and they could get you honest, and I think, Okay,
Speaker 1: see as set and I think Houston's going to be
Speaker 1: in that group of three young teams a little lost
Speaker 1: because Jalen Green, I'm in, Thompson's excellent, Sanngoon's excellent, but
Speaker 1: there's just a lot of athleticism that's not very good
Speaker 1: in a half court game. And I think I think,
Speaker 1: okay Se has popped, san Antonio is going to pop,
Speaker 1: and I so I could if I'm if I'm a dooka,
Speaker 1: I would consider the job. I think Houston's one of
Speaker 1: those that, like the national media, we hover in, we
Speaker 1: drop in, we go. Oh, I got Houston. I didn't
Speaker 1: like what I Saw. I'll be honest, and I think
Speaker 1: you can push them around. I don't think they have
Speaker 1: a lot of half court possessions that are just sort
Speaker 1: of lost. You don't get good looks. They look a
Speaker 1: little disorganized eye. But Jason kid to me, the next
Speaker 1: five years in Dallas are gonna be fascinating with just
Speaker 1: this trajectory that goes through the roof.
Speaker 2: The roster is weird because it's kind of imbalanced in
Speaker 2: the sense that they just have an absurd amount of
Speaker 2: front court talent, like you crazy Lively Gafford, Anthony Davis, PJ. Washington,
Speaker 2: and Cooper Flag, Like that's five starting caliber players that
Speaker 2: all play the four or the five. So, like, I
Speaker 2: do see an imbalance there, but there's an insane amount
Speaker 2: of talent. And I actually go the other way there,
Speaker 2: which is like they can afford to go into training
Speaker 2: camp and just bring all these guys in and start
Speaker 2: playing and basically look around the league and be like,
Speaker 2: who's gonna throw us the Godfather offer for PJ. Washington,
Speaker 2: for a Daniel gafferd Ford, Anthony Davis, Like you could
Speaker 2: argue that Ad is going to be the target that
Speaker 2: someone goes after, like because AD's hurt now, so he's
Speaker 2: got that classic. Everyone's down on him. They think he's old,
Speaker 2: they think he's beat up. Ad comes out of training
Speaker 2: camp looking like he's in great shape, motivated, kicks everybody's
Speaker 2: butt for a couple of months. He instantly becomes like
Speaker 2: a dude you could flip for an enormous mountain of assets.
Speaker 2: And so I look at Dallas as a very, very
Speaker 2: healthy situation moving forward. It's not the same Luka Doncic
Speaker 2: were right on the doorstep of the title, but they
Speaker 2: do have a lot of big picture potential. So let's
Speaker 2: talk about Kevin Durant. We got a report from Shams
Speaker 2: today that Kevin Durant and his business partner Rich Clement
Speaker 2: are kind of canvassing the league looking for potential opportunities.
Speaker 2: The five names that were thrown out in the SHAMS
Speaker 2: report for the Houston Rockets, San Antonio Spurs, the Miami Heat,
Speaker 2: the Minnesota Timberwolves, and the New York Knicks. Did where
Speaker 2: did your head go when you saw that report this morning?
Speaker 1: Well, I think he works everywhere. I think there's very
Speaker 1: few players that everywhere and KD is one of them.
Speaker 1: He doesn't necessarily need to be the soul of the team.
Speaker 1: He doesn't need the ball constantly in his hands. You
Speaker 1: get great length a willing defender twenty four, twenty six.
Speaker 1: I think KD fits everywhere. You know, if I was
Speaker 1: KD i New York, I think he fits New York well.
Speaker 1: But Brunson has the ball in his hands. I mean
Speaker 1: in his mind, is he thinking Brunston's got some Westbrook
Speaker 1: like dribble the air out of the ball. And I'm
Speaker 1: sitting in the corner, like I could see him like
Speaker 1: I've been through that. You know, Kyrie, who he played with,
Speaker 1: also can be a little bit like that. So I
Speaker 1: could see KD just saying, you know, because he's got
Speaker 1: the leverage here, I could see him saying, I've kind
Speaker 1: of done the ball centric guard thing. I just don't
Speaker 1: want it again. Pat Riley and Spolster are very convincing people. Miami,
Speaker 1: he's a great place to play, no state tax, It's
Speaker 1: a winter league, a lot of warm weather. Like Miami's
Speaker 1: a really attractive place out east. But I'm a KD fan.
Speaker 1: I think he fits in a lot of places, and
Speaker 1: Minnesota he obviously fits. And you know, we've talked about this,
Speaker 1: like Lebron in his prime was great, but he had
Speaker 1: to be the offensive ecosystem you had to Chris Bosh
Speaker 1: had to reduce, you know, got marginalized. Kevin Love can
Speaker 1: get marginalized. Guys get away from the rim, go you know,
Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving, you can't have the ball that so Kevin
Speaker 1: never provides that kind of obstacle, Like he just kind
Speaker 1: of fits. So I can tell you this, if if, if,
Speaker 1: if you were a GM and you talk to a
Speaker 1: coach or players, a lot of guys would raise their
Speaker 1: hands and say, get KD. Because I think he loves basketball.
Speaker 1: He's a good teammates's got a good sense of humor.
Speaker 1: He doesn't need to be the media darling. I think
Speaker 1: he's really liked and respected in the league.
Speaker 2: I heard him say agree, I've you know, I've loved
Speaker 2: the point you made about his fit. Like he all
Speaker 2: five of these teams the basketball makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: There's one. The one team that I was like that
Speaker 2: doesn't make as much of a sense in terms of
Speaker 2: the basketball fit to me was the Spurs because it's like,
Speaker 2: I don't love the idea of putting a super thin
Speaker 2: front court player that likes the perimeter next to another
Speaker 2: super thin front court player that likes the perimeter. I
Speaker 2: wasn't a huge fan of that one. It also just
Speaker 2: doesn't really fit San Antonio's timeline. So the Spurs one
Speaker 2: was weird for me. The heat, I liked the fit.
Speaker 2: I just don't know why KD would go there because
Speaker 2: it just feels like another move to a team that's
Speaker 2: not good enough to win the title. Like I'm just
Speaker 2: not sure that, Like is is Kevin Durant, Tyler Harrow,
Speaker 2: bam Adebayo? Is that enough to win the title? I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't want to.
Speaker 1: When I'm watching that kid, Benedict Mathern for Indy tonight,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not trying to overreact here, but when
Speaker 1: I'm watching him and I'm like, Jesus, he's just a kid,
Speaker 1: like he's gonna you're gonna get this two out of
Speaker 1: three games next year? Like this is this? I mean,
Speaker 1: by the way, again, I think was Hei the third
Speaker 1: leading scorer on the team or fourth leading scorer this year?
Speaker 2: Like he I think coming into the coming into the series,
Speaker 2: he was actually the highest per minute score for the
Speaker 2: Pacers in this playoff run because I use in a
Speaker 2: shorter role, but his like points per thirty six minutes
Speaker 2: was the highest on the team.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I watched him and I think, oh, he's
Speaker 1: going to become a full time starter and it will
Speaker 1: be Siakam, Halle and Mathern are their three leading scorers.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I just I'm looking at the East
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I think Indiana is going to take
Speaker 1: a leap next year. You know they'll play with a
Speaker 1: finals level confidence. So I just I don't think. I
Speaker 1: just I and I'm not just saying this because they're
Speaker 1: up two to one. I look at Indiana and I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: that is a team with I mean outside of I
Speaker 1: mean Sayakam, he is what he is. I feel like
Speaker 1: seventy five percent of Indiana, all these players will be
Speaker 1: better next year. I mean out Sakhams game is his game.
Speaker 2: They're better than they were last year.
Speaker 1: It's just like as I was just so impressed with
Speaker 1: him tonight. So we can start talking about with Tatum
Speaker 1: out next year. It's gonna run through Indy. We've gotta
Speaker 1: be honest about this. It's gonna run through Indy. They
Speaker 1: are deep, they're well coached, most of their players are ascending.
Speaker 1: The East is running through Indy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And I don't see the heat as
Speaker 2: like an obvious like, Oh, he goes there and he's
Speaker 2: all of a sudden the favorite in the Eastern Conference.
Speaker 2: I like the Rockets fit. I think his skill set
Speaker 2: is desperately needed as a guy who's a career that
Speaker 2: can shoot from the perimeter. He also brings length at
Speaker 2: the rim, which is not like the Rockets are a big,
Speaker 2: strong team. They're not like a long arms team like
Speaker 2: Jabari Smith Junior is like the one guy they have.
Speaker 1: The Rockets need him, Jason. I would argue the Rockets
Speaker 1: need him more than any other team that he would
Speaker 1: play for. They need him. They are a half court
Speaker 1: offense lost a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he would go in there and immediately vault
Speaker 2: them into top tier championship contention. So that move makes
Speaker 2: some sense. I will say, by far, out of these
Speaker 2: five teams, my favorite fit is the Timberwolves. It's a
Speaker 2: similar lack of redundancy in the sense that he brings
Speaker 2: kind of like exactly what the team doesn't have, which
Speaker 2: is a rock solid secondary ball handler next to Ant
Speaker 2: who can really generate shots for his team. But they
Speaker 2: can surround KD with elite super physical defense, which is
Speaker 2: what he hasn't had in these other destinations. And also similarly,
Speaker 2: Nasrid not super vertical, Julius Randall not super vertical, Rudy
Speaker 2: Gobert is vertical, but like the Kevin Durant would be
Speaker 2: a guy at the four spot, different from Kat last year,
Speaker 2: different from Nas who brings real vertical length to the
Speaker 2: table where you can imagine Jaden McDaniels, Kevin Durant and
Speaker 2: Rudy Gobert on the floor together in that front line
Speaker 2: and it's like all arms just everywhere, and it would
Speaker 2: just be really, really difficult to handle. But it's gonna
Speaker 2: be really interesting. Hopeful, I'm hopeful that we get a
Speaker 2: pretty quick like a set of action here in late
Speaker 2: June where we find out where all these guys land.
Speaker 2: But Colin, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time. We'll
Speaker 2: join us tonight. It was good to see you. Everyone
Speaker 2: who's hanging out here on the YouTube's triom. We are
Speaker 2: heading over to playback, so that's playback dot TV slash
Speaker 2: hoops tonight. We're gonna be hanging out for an extra
Speaker 2: hour here after the show, taking callers and stuff. Colin
Speaker 2: was great to see you man.
Speaker 1: Great to see you, buddy.
Speaker 2: What's up guys. As always, I appreciate you for listening
Speaker 2: to and supporting OOPS tonight. It would actually be really
Speaker 2: helpful for us if you guys would take a second
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