WEBVTT - Tussle Outside Turkish Embassy Puts Guards in Focus (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>There was an ugly scene after Turkish President Airdwan met

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<v Speaker 1>with U S President Trump last week. Members of Air

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<v Speaker 1>to one security detailed clashed with protesters outside the Turkish

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<v Speaker 1>ambassador's residence in Northwest Washington. Videos show air to Wan's

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<v Speaker 1>men charging the demonstrators, then punching and kicking them. DC's

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<v Speaker 1>chief of police called it a quote brutal tech on

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<v Speaker 1>peaceful protesters. But any effort to hold air to Wan's

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<v Speaker 1>bodyguards accountable is going to have to overcome the hurdle

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<v Speaker 1>of diplomatic community. Is that obstacle an insurmountable. One our

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<v Speaker 1>guest to talk about that is Ruth Wood. Ruth Wedgwood,

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<v Speaker 1>a professor of international law and diplomacy at the Johns

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<v Speaker 1>Hopkins School of International Studies. Ruth, thanks for joining us. UM,

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<v Speaker 1>just tell us what is your understanding of what happened

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<v Speaker 1>outside the Turkish ambassadors home. Well, I wasn't there obviously

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<v Speaker 1>in person. I've seen some film clips and what it

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<v Speaker 1>does look like is that the Turkish bodyguards charged various

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<v Speaker 1>of civilians who were demonstrating, which is their first Amendment

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<v Speaker 1>right to in this country, and brutalize them. And I

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<v Speaker 1>frankly found it extraordinarily shocking. I drive by their every

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<v Speaker 1>day on my way to work. It is Sheridan's Center,

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<v Speaker 1>Sheridan Circle, right by the American Society of International Law.

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<v Speaker 1>And I've never seen anything quite like this in recent history,

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<v Speaker 1>because while embassies have immunity for their senior officials, it

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<v Speaker 1>gives them no license to become thugs and the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a mob attacking people whose views they happen to

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<v Speaker 1>disagree with. So so let's let me jump to sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the bottom line question, and then we can explore

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<v Speaker 1>the nuances of it. Um. If what you described is

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<v Speaker 1>what you know, what you understood, and what I think

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<v Speaker 1>I understand from the videos is what happened. Um. And

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<v Speaker 1>as men are culpable in this, can they be prosecuted?

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<v Speaker 1>Depends on their rank in the embassy. Uh. If they were,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, just contract officials, then yes, indeed. UH. If

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<v Speaker 1>they are have embassy status, we would certainly and we

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<v Speaker 1>should demand that Turkey wave their sovereign immunity or their

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<v Speaker 1>personal immunity. Uh. You can use expulsion, declare them persona

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<v Speaker 1>non grata, and expel anybody of any rank. Frankly, I

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<v Speaker 1>would expel some very senior officials if not the ambassador,

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps the d c M, the Deputy chief of Mission,

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<v Speaker 1>to make the point that you just can't do this.

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<v Speaker 1>This I will note is where the assassination of late

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<v Speaker 1>Tellier a Chilean uh, what was occurred must be one

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<v Speaker 1>three decades ago. But literally this is embassy row. You

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<v Speaker 1>don't use hooliganism in embassy row. It's it's bad for

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<v Speaker 1>the US abroad, it's unseemly for a Turkey. So you

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<v Speaker 1>made a distinction between you talked about contracts and employees

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<v Speaker 1>and and uh embassy personnel. If these are are people

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<v Speaker 1>who came with aired Wan and there may be a

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<v Speaker 1>mixture of people because there were lot of a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people there. If it's somebody who's on air to

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<v Speaker 1>wanees uh, you know staff in Turkey who travels with

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<v Speaker 1>him and came here, where would that person fall on

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<v Speaker 1>that divide? Well, the lower level you are, the less

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<v Speaker 1>immunity you generally have. Lower level employees will typically have

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<v Speaker 1>official acts community and you can have a nice conversation

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<v Speaker 1>even litigation about whether beating up harmless demonstrators is an

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<v Speaker 1>official act, because surely Turkey is not going to want

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<v Speaker 1>to embrace that as the policy that they desired. So

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<v Speaker 1>what one could ask Turkey to waive in the immunity

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<v Speaker 1>that those people have as well and put them put

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of them in the slammer. This is really

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<v Speaker 1>unacceptable behavior. It's Cold war behavior. It's not the behavior

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<v Speaker 1>of an ally. So Turkey does not seem like they

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<v Speaker 1>are going to to agree to do any of that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of thing at least. You know, what happened today

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<v Speaker 1>was apparently there's a report that they Turkey summoned the

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<v Speaker 1>US and as to protest what Turkey called the aggressive

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<v Speaker 1>and unprofessional actions of US security personnel during the visit.

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<v Speaker 1>What what's your reaction to that? One don't know which

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<v Speaker 1>US personnel they're talking about, other than perhaps policemen. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>but that just seems to mean be nonsense on stilts.

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<v Speaker 1>Given the film that we have, I take it that

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<v Speaker 1>the First Amendment or freedom of speech, freedom of demonstration

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<v Speaker 1>is not as familiar in parts of Turkey as it

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<v Speaker 1>might wish it to be. But these are sophisticated people

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<v Speaker 1>that these are. These are not just folks that came

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<v Speaker 1>off the boat. They knew what they were doing. I

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<v Speaker 1>think this was an attempt to be forward leaning on

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<v Speaker 1>the part of Turkey and to show that they have

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<v Speaker 1>a certain uh uh prowess in intimidation. I think it

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<v Speaker 1>really is ugly, and so if it reflects what the

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<v Speaker 1>White House might have inadvertently signaled as acceptable behavior, I

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<v Speaker 1>do think that the President should be very careful in

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<v Speaker 1>the future that nobody who's coming here on official visit

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<v Speaker 1>has a a insane belief that they can get away

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<v Speaker 1>with this kind of thing. Let me just back up

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<v Speaker 1>for a second, return to the subject of diplomatic community.

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<v Speaker 1>Where where does that concept come from? It's been embodied

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<v Speaker 1>in treaty language. There's the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations,

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<v Speaker 1>which gives immunity absolute immunity, meaning all you can do

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<v Speaker 1>is expel them to very senior people, and then official

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<v Speaker 1>acts immunity to lower level people, and then has a

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<v Speaker 1>third category of kind of drivers and operatives. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>but it's one of the most ancient venerable guarantees and

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<v Speaker 1>traditions in order to make diplomacy possible, because otherwise you'd

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<v Speaker 1>be very leery of going into the mouth of the

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<v Speaker 1>lion for fear of what would happen to you. And

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<v Speaker 1>particularly in the Cold War, it was very, very important

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<v Speaker 1>for our folks in Moscow to have diplomatic community less

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<v Speaker 1>they be put in the gulag or intimidated or or assaulted.

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<v Speaker 1>So if the US takes a really hard line on

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<v Speaker 1>this with with Turkey, to what extent does that have

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<v Speaker 1>the potential to come back and bite our people who

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<v Speaker 1>are American people who are overseas and and maybe are

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<v Speaker 1>accused of doing something by by a foreign government there. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the absolute nature of diplomatic community is not disputed in

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<v Speaker 1>its in its in it's at its core, I mean it.

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<v Speaker 1>There's there's a Vienna Convention on the matter. Almost all

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<v Speaker 1>states assigned up to it. It existed as customary law

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<v Speaker 1>before any formal treaty instrument was completed. And it's something

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<v Speaker 1>that every country needs. So I think that Turkey would

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<v Speaker 1>only be piling on wood on the fire if it

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<v Speaker 1>attempted to attack the idea itself. They need it, we

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<v Speaker 1>need it, Every country needs it in order to have

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<v Speaker 1>the kinds of conversations that in general tend to solve

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<v Speaker 1>problems and escalation. And what have you heard from the

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<v Speaker 1>Trump administ stration so far with it about thirty seconds left?

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<v Speaker 1>Have they given the type of forceful response that you'd

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<v Speaker 1>like to like to see. I could be unaware sitting

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<v Speaker 1>here in the suburbs, but I do think it's incumbent

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<v Speaker 1>on Donald Trump, who likes to present himself as a

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<v Speaker 1>man of parts and a man who doesn't stand for

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of nonsense, to have a very very evocative, forceful,

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<v Speaker 1>uh damning, if I may response to this, It's not

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<v Speaker 1>acceptable behavior from any country, and certainly not from a

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<v Speaker 1>country with whom we cooperate. I want to thank our guest,

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth Wedgwood of Johns Hopkins University, talking to us about

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<v Speaker 1>the prospect of diplomatic community for the bodyguards of Turkish

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<v Speaker 1>President Air Duan who were involved in that fracas in Washington,

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<v Speaker 1>d C. Last week. Coming up on Bloomberg Bloomberg Radio

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<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg Markets with Carol Masser and Corey Johnson, and

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<v Speaker 1>Carol is here to tell us what they're gonna talk about. Hi, Greg,

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<v Speaker 1>good afternoon, everybody for getting a new CEO. We've got

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<v Speaker 1>turmoil in Brazil. Continue doing artificial intelligence and drug discovery

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<v Speaker 1>and how to upgrade your life. What do you think

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<v Speaker 1>about that craigstore. That sounds like a heck of a show.

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<v Speaker 1>Stay tuned for all that coming up on Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Bloomberg Markets with Carol Masser and Corey Johnson. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg