WEBVTT - It’s Not Over Yet 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.040 Hello, I'm Senator Lindsay Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruise, 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:07.560 the number one podcast in the entire country. What is 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:19.000 a podcast? Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruise. I'm 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.360 Michael Knowles. I'm joined by not one, but two US 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.959 Senators to help us break down the most shocking day 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.120 of the entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.400 much for being here. Gentlemen. The last time that we 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.400 sat down, I was told this impeachment was going to 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:37.559 drag on for weeks. We were going to get witnesses. 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.600 We were gonna get Bolton, we were gonna get Hunter Biden. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.200 This was gonna get long and ugly. I go to sleep. 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:46.559 I wake up today and the senators are voting no 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.280 more witnesses. This thing could be over next week, Senator Cruise, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.879 what happened? Well, today was a big day. And let 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:55.560 me say, lindsay, thank you. Well. You appreciate your coming. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:57.440 This is late at night. We spent all day, all 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:02.640 day in the setting, a lot of money on production. Sorry, well, 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.360 this was you're right yesterday. If the vote had gone 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:09.319 differently today, this trial could have gone on for months. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.119 We could have seen a drag on and on and on, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:13.920 and it was a big deal. It was up in 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.160 the air, and today was the most important vote we've 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:21.240 had in the entire trial. It really came down to 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.400 we knew we had forty seven Democrats that wanted more witnesses. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.800 Why because they hadn't proved in the case. They're losing 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.240 and so the only hope they have is extended, going 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.839 a fishing expedition and see if they can find something. 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.200 The big open question was were four Republicans going to 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.000 join them? We knew that two Republicans were, they'd announced 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.600 it already, Mitt Romney and Susan Collins were voting with them. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.760 There were two other senators who were in play, Lamar 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:51.120 Alexander Lisa Murkowski, and it was close. Last night. Lamar 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:52.800 announced that he was going to come out and say 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.440 enough is enough. And we just found got a final 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.560 decision from Lisa today just a few minutes before she voted. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.080 Absolutely So I saw the update on my phone when 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.720 Senator Murkowski finally decided she was going to vote no 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.680 more witnesses. How does that work? Well, that's what I 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.359 was going to ask you, because it's Michael. Have you 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.360 ever seen his phone. You hang in there. That's worth 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:21.320 worth the way. Oh you know it is. The Russians 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.200 can't get in this. You'll all have one in a 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.359 five years. Senator Grant, you're clearly a fiscal conservative if 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.000 you were using that kind of cell phone. What happened 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.399 with Senator Murkowski? I know that you two gentlemen were 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.040 kneeling and dealing a little bit on the Senate floor. 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.400 So unless number one Ted was awesome, we had a 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.519 little team trying to convince people. Can you say shit 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:45.359 show on podcasts? I think you just did that all right? 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:47.640 So what would happened if you call witnesses being a 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.560 shit show? Yeah, you're just not gonna call John Bolton. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:52.680 If you're gonna call a witness, we're gonna call all 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.359 the witnesses. What do you want to know a little 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.320 bit about the Bidens? You know, I like Joe Biden, 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.480 but give me a break. If Mike pen this son 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.240 was making three million dollars a year from the most 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.520 corrupt gas company in the U Train, don't you think 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.160 you might hear about it. You're only gonna hear about 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.240 the Bidens on this podcast. So the bottom line here 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.360 is Ted made a very eloquent argument that it throwes 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.640 the courts in the chaos to be the first impeachment 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:23.640 in history. If you have executive privilege, we'll be decided 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.280 by the United States Senate that if you call one witness, 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.080 you're gonna call a bunch of witnesses. The president didn't 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.960 get to call one witness in the House, so you 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:37.520 open up Pandora's bogs and number two, the whole idea 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.760 of legitimizing an impeachment in the House that took seventy 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.760 eight days. You can't get a parking ticket in seventy 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.720 eight days if you can test it. Not one witness 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.320 allowed to be called by the president, no cross examination. 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.080 The bottom line is the whole thing was at sham, 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.440 and we were trying to convince Lisa and everybody else 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.560 don't legitimize this, don't do their work for them. They're 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.720 accusing you of being unfair because you did not call 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.400 a witness. They chose doctor call. Why didn't they call 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.440 John Bolton because it would be inconvenient. They couldn't impeach 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.560 the president by Christmas. That's not a good reason to 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.040 ignore the courts. Do you think that it was the 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:16.840 public arguments well, we all saw on TV that moved 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.159 Senator Murkowski or was it more private conversations? So I 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.680 think the pivotal moment happened day before yesterday. Day before yesterday, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.679 Adam Schiff made a mistake. He was standing up arguing 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.760 and he said, he said, listen, the White House defense 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.240 team had made John Bolton relevant because they have contradicted 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.159 what he said. And then he threw a little aside. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.320 He said, if they'd a stipulated to it, then they'd 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.400 have an argument. And it was interesting. I heard that 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.000 Jay Sekulo's eyes got real wide when he said that, 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.440 and I got up and went back to the cloak room. 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.400 Lindsay went back to the close. Well, I opened my 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.600 eyes at that point. So for those of us who 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:55.920 were not us senators, why is that the big light 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.719 bulb moment? So well, I'll tell you. So, I immediately 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.320 in the cloak room, got my phone, texted my team 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.680 and said, give me the transcript of exactly what Shift 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.440 just said. And I went to Lindsay and we began talking, saying, look, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.320 we need to get Lamar, we need to get Lisa. 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.160 This idea of if you stipulate to a quid pro quo. 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.200 If you agree, even if there is a quid pro quo, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.599 we win. That might get their vote, that might give them, 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.159 give them a ground to become comfortable. So we got 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.960 the script, Lindsay and I together in the cloak room. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.560 We talked with Lamar. We showed him exactly what he said. 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:30.960 We said, what do you think about this? We talked 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:32.960 with Lisa, He said, hey, what do you think about this? 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.680 They were open to the idea. They weren't convinced, but 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.960 they were thinking about it. They were listening. We kept 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.080 talking the next day in the question period, I think 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.520 the most important question is a question Lindsay wrote that 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.240 I helped him write, and it was a question that 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.240 was to the White House team that essentially said, if 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.120 you assume, for sake of argument, then John Bolton testifies 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.560 and everything he says is right, that we just assume 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.760 everything's right, that there's a quid pro quo, is that 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.560 impeachable offense or not? And the White House lawyers that 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:06.440 they didn't want to go down this road. They had 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.640 to be dragged, kicking and screaming to this point. And 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.440 I'll tell you there was some kicking and screaming that 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.360 Lindsay and I were both engaged with but they got 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:16.839 up and they gave the answer, the most important answer, 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.840 where they said, look, even if he testified, even if 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.479 he says it's a quid pro quo, it doesn't change 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:26.480 that it's an impeachable offense, which means his testimony isn't necessary. 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.479 And they walked through, as we've been talking about on 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:32.000 this podcast, that a president can always investigate corruption, and 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.520 if that's right, that a president can always investigate corruption, 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.200 there was more than enough evidence of corruption. And I 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.480 think that played. That exchange where the White House lawyers 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.840 made that argument in response to the question we teed up, 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:48.799 I think was pivotal to getting both Lisa and Lamar, 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.240 especially Lisa, to yes, which we need. So what you're 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.520 saying the White House team was pushing back, They didn't 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.120 necessarily want to go down this road of if there 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:01.680 was a quid pro quo, then X, Y and Z right. However, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.159 if you address that that argument and it still doesn't 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.000 matter if there was a quid pro que, then there 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.240 is no basis whatsoever for the impeachment. Well, there's no 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.560 basis to call John Bolton. So what brought all this up? 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.400 You know, Ted was very proud. I'm a practical guy. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.600 Lisa mccowski is independent from Alaska. We're Republicans from Texas 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:27.440 and South Carolina. A little different politics. And here's the problem. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.000 They could have called John Bolton and others, but they 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.640 chose not to because they wanted to impeach the president 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.400 before Christmas. The president would declared executive privilege. It had 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.040 gone to court like Nixon and Clinton did, but that 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.200 got in the way of this railroad right job. But 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.840 the problem is, there's a blurb in the New York Times, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.360 as they always do, saying John Bolton has direct evidence 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.960 that the President asked him to condition the AID on 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.840 investigating the bidens looking at interference by the Ukraine. That 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.560 was different. The defense team of the President said there 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.680 is no evidence and there right, there was no direct 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:05.160 evidence in the record that the House chose to establish. 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.640 And from just a common sense point of view, it 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.960 raises a question. Lamar is an institutionalist. He wanted to 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.720 make sure that the Senate was a body that was 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.480 open minded, fair and Lisa had to go back home 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.840 and explained, well, why didn't you call any witnesses? And 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:27.520 here's the point. If we call John Bolton. Now want 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.720 the president raise executive privilege? Because if he doesn't, he 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:35.000 forfeits that for future presidence. Do we as senators destroy 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.960 the privilege? To be the first impeachment in history where 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.880 there was no court access, we would have to decide 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.720 executive privilege. And I think that made Lamar feel uncomfortable. 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.439 So walk me through that just a little bit more, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.679 because this is now not an argument. So this is 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.559 really important right here. So this is about what happens 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:55.960 if we try to capture this testimony. The president was 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.240 denied the chance to go to court in the House, 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.480 they shut him out. What if we say now we 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.880 want to call him for a new reason, and if 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.880 he asked to go to court, the logic is the 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:11.000 court of impeachment de sized not Article three courts. It 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.040 may be the first time in history a president was 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.320 impeached without ever being able to avail the courts. Right, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:21.040 So what's the answer this assuming for a moment arguendo podcast, 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:26.120 people look up, Okay, you showed off your Latin and 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.319 the episode so arguing, I am like it is a 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.640 lawyer word. You put it in race all the time 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:35.199 where you say assume arguendo, which is I'm not admitting it. Yeah, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:37.679 but assume for case of argument this is true. We 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.480 still win. And so you do that in briefs all 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.839 the time. Yeah, that's right in South Carolina. What if 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.600 he said it is assuming arguendo, would it matter? So 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.720 why I assume for a moment for arguendo, for the 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:54.160 sake of argument, that if John Bolton did, if he 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.040 was told by the President, I want to suspend AID 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.800 until I find more about what the Bidens did. He 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.480 had every reason in the world because if you're in charge, Ted, 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.280 if I put you in charge of fixing corruption in 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.520 the Ukraine and I find out that your son, who's 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.480 you know, until I'm told that job pays a million 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.720 bucks here, Okay, so it's better than podcasting, don't you 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.400 think When Joe Biden gets in front of the Ukrainian 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.280 parliament says we got in corruption in the Ukraine, particularly 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:26.439 the energy sector, and everybody said, well, why is your 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:28.720 son on the border breeze by making a million dollars, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.240 it kind of undercuts your argument. It destroyed our ability 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.240 quite frankly, to be credible agents of change. And that's 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.080 a public policy. And you know, all Lamar said, that's right. 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.319 There's a reason to look at that. And there was 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.200 all kind of evidence that the Ukraine UH didn't like 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.720 Trump and like Clinton at least parts of it. So 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.560 the president had a legitimate public purpose. And that gets 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.360 back to Dershowitz. He says, if there's a mixed motive, 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.120 the reason it's impeachment sucks so much. We got to 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.880 get into Trump's brain and find out how much of 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.640 it was personal and how much it was public and what. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.280 And I said, you know, they said, there's not a 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.599 sentilla of evidence that the Biden said anything wrong. I said, no, 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.920 there's not. There's a herd of zendillas. You know, if 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.800 you find one of these little suckers rumming around, you win. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.760 So like even I could prove this doesn't pass the 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.360 smell test. And they started thinking, and I said, assume 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:24.160 for a moment that the conversation was most beneficial to 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.480 the house managers. You wind up right where you are today. 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.000 There was a legitimate public purpose to suspend the AID 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.560 and this is not an impeachable fence. Do you think 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.760 the founders really meant to throw the president out of 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.720 office who could never run again because for forty days, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.640 he's suspended age of the Ukraine. They wind up getting 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.160 the money and they didn't investigate anybody. But this is 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.760 this is a real trick, a real political trick here, 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.560 because you've got Senator Alexander, who you say cares about 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:56.040 the institutions. He's a wonderful man of credibility. Absolutely, and 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.840 you've got Senator Murkowski, who's independent, she's gonna go back home. 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.600 Had real problems. So they have separate problems. And I 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.280 understood maybe differently than others. And now I let ted 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.240 talk here. You've got to address the problem in front 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.320 of you. From Lisa Murkowski's point of view. If we 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.679 could show Lisa that if you had the New York 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:18.880 Times article in front of you and I tried to 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.199 get a stipulation the day before, would it really matter. 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.720 Wouldn't it still fall short of the impeachment? Is this 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.439 really what they meant to throw a president out? That 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.440 you suspend AID when they got the money, never did 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.880 investigation the big picture stuff. Then I think that turned 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:37.160 the thinking that you really didn't need Bolton because it 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.920 wouldn't change the outcome. So one of the things that 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.240 I think was really potent is Lindsay is a trial lawyer. 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.360 I'm an a pellet lawyer. Those are different worlds, those 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.520 are different arenas. I say shit show and he says stuff. 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.640 So that's the difference between a trial lawyer and at lawyer. Look, look, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.920 trial lawyers talk to jury's a pellet lawyers talk to judges. 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.960 Those are different ways of framing, framing things. But he 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.040 and I teamed up very close. We probably wrote a 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.320 dozen questions together, some of which we asked, some of 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.560 which we gave to our colleagues and they asked. But 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.440 a lot of it we were aiming over and over 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.239 and over again. We had a purpose at Lamar and Lisa, 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.000 trying to move them, but trying to also give them. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.080 You know, we talked on this podcast a lot of 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.840 times about framing the narrative and choosing, choosing the terrain 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.960 on which you fight, if the whole fight. Early on 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.000 the White House spent hours an hour saying there's no 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:28.960 quid pro quo, there's no quid pro quote. Well, you 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.120 know what if that's their argument, The fact that the 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.160 New York Time says John Bolton says there is a 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:39.760 quid pro quo that suddenly makes if someone they even handed. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.640 If that's the central dispute, it's really hard to say, well, God, 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.840 shouldn't we bring him in to testify? What was important? 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:48.480 And it took a couple of days to get us 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.600 there is to make clear it doesn't matter if there 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.400 was a quid pro quo or not. That's not the issue. 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.959 So I'm start to interrupt. There were these competing strategies. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.760 Were these two? Okay? So here's the point. You got 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:04.880 to know who you're talking to. Lisa Murkowski is very independent. 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.000 She's not going to do something because somebody tells her to. 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.040 It's inconvenient. If you want a witness, that's not gonna matter. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.000 It may hurt the team if you call a witness. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.080 And Lamar loves the institution, he's about to retire. He's 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:20.960 going to do what he thinks best. And what we 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.080 try to do is explain play it out. They're playing 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.520 a game here. They set us up. They could have 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.360 called the witness. They chose not to because it's inconvenient. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:33.800 Now they're asking you to deal out Article three courts bad. 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.640 So assume for a moment you had Bolton in front 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.520 of you, would it really change the outcome? Here? Does 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.440 it make it an ippeachable offense for Bolton to say 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.360 what he's going to say, and the answer is clearly Now. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.760 There was another argument that I think moved them quite 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.360 a bit, yes, and it was that what the Democrats 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.000 were trying to do if we'd have been a fifty 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.640 fifty this is a big one here. The Democrats were 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.680 trying to go after the US Supreme Court because if 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.120 it had been fifty fifty, and we talked about this 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.000 on the show last time, it's completely unclear if they 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.800 would have tried to make John Roberts decide, and whatever 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.160 he did, it would have been viewed through a political lens. 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.800 And so look, one case that a number of us 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.840 made is we're in a world where people have lost 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.760 faith in Congress, they've lost faith in the presidency. And 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.960 if we come through this and let the Democrats tarnish 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.080 the Supreme Court two, where they lose faith in every 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.480 institution of government, that that's a real problem. And Michael, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.920 I think we've got a clip here that will give 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.160 an example of the Democrat's strategy. Question from Senator Warren 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:43.440 is for the House managers at a time when large 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.320 majorities of Americans have lost faith in government. Does the 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.520 fact that the Chief Justice is presiding over an impeachment 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.440 trial in which Republican Senators have thus far refused to 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:59.239 allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.960 of the Chief Justice, the Supreme Court, and the Constitution. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.160 Now that is an insulting question. Now, Michael, I'm going 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:11.280 to tell you something surprising. Yeah, Elizabeth Warren helped defeat 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.880 the impeachment of the President of the United States. That 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.320 little stunt she pulled was a campaign stunt. That was 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:22.280 a fundraising stunt that was designed to thrill the left 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.840 wing activist in the Iowa caucus. There ain't nothing else 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.160 going on than that. But I'll tell you what. That 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:33.760 stunt helped deliver the votes of Lisa and Lamar. It 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:38.400 did because it made clear this is a political game 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.400 and if John Roberts doesn't vote the way Elizabeth Warren wants, 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.680 she's going to call him a political hack and throw 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:49.560 him into politics. And it suddenly raised the price of 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.040 their voting and making it fifty fifty. Because you don't 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.760 want to see the court thrown into that political swamp? 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.360 Do you agree with that? All you gotta do is 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.360 look at her statement, she said, a fair trial and 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.080 the sentence impossible because of them. This is Lisa, So 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.200 her statement was that they're going to set up the 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.879 Chief Justice because they hate Trump so much. So the 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.280 difference between fifty one and fifties enormous. If it's fifty 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.439 to fifty, then you put the Chief Justice in the 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.280 crosshairs of history, you begin to corrupt the court. As 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.399 Ted said, they could give a damn on the other side. 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.919 They just want an outcome here. And I think it 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:31.320 really mattered to Lamar and Lisa that Ted explained the 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.640 historic nature of what the Chief Justice would be required 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.240 to decide. And I think I explained, honest to God, 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.480 if you believed every word of John Bolt wouldn't matter, 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.240 and the truth is, it wouldn't be. A left wing 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.760 attack group today put out an attack ad with John 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.680 Robert Farr and a Maga Hath Yeah, and that ticked 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.359 off Republican senators that helped produce the vote we had today. 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.600 So you think it was just an overreach by people 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.159 like Senator Warren, by these left wing groups. So what 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.880 I want to know, I mean, this was a truly 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.960 shocking day. What happens now, Well, I just want to 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.080 fill out with what you said. It wasn't just an 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.119 overreach by them. They helped. It was two senators or 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.679 good people thinking it through, and Ted bringing to the 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.760 table and expertise that very few people have, quite frankly, 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.800 and I just try to say, listen, I try to 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.480 be fair. I supported the Mueller investigation. I actually co 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.439 sponsored legislation that would prevent Mueller from being fired without 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.960 causing Yeah, what the thin, Well, just to tell Trump, 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.040 what the hell are you thinking? If you fire this guy, 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.720 you're dead. And I thought Mueller would be fair, but 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.800 this whole process has not been fair. So I could say, listen, guys, 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.320 it's not like I think the presence beyond being looked at. 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.240 What they did in the House is dangerous to the country. 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:54.359 It's a partisan impeach, but no due process, and we 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:56.840 need to end it the right way. Do not make 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.399 it worse. And what would make it worse is to 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.160 do what d said, put the court in the crossairs 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.359 of history in the wrong way. And what would make 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.080 it worse is to let them go to us into 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.240 calling a witness. That wouldn't matter because they think we're unfair. 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.159 You've done nothing wrong here it was the other side 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.640 who did something wrong well, And as a consequence, John 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:19.800 Roberts is not in a position where he has to 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.520 make any controversial rulings where they get where he's being 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.840 set up to be attacked as being political. He simply 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.760 he presided over a fair trial and it was the 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.000 Senators who are voted. And look, we're elected to make 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:37.080 policy decisions and political decisions and also to apply the 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.880 constitutional standards, and that's what we did. In some way, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:41.719 it feels like we dodged a bullet if it were 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.960 you have no idea. No, you dodged a candid truck. Yeah, 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:51.160 but because really just play it out. We call witnesses. 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.040 Then you're not just going to call John Bolton, You're 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.720 going to have the whistleblower. Is going to be a 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.240 nightmare for the country. You have all kind of issues 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.600 decided by the Senate should be decided by the courts, 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.200 and you would set a president that I think would 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.560 make impeachment of every president in future almost a certainty. 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.359 And it seemed actually in some of the arguments we 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.520 heard during the trial that there was a threat there 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:15.800 or an acknowledgement that if we continue down this path. 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.520 We're going to impeach every president from now on. Well, 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.200 and that remains a real risk that we've opened the 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.479 door to. So how do you stop that if the 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.040 House loses? And one of the reasons they lost just 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.200 because they've gone crazy. Donald Trump's changed the Republican Party, 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:34.359 but he's driven the Democratic Party completely nuts. So what 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:38.160 would happen if President Trump gets reelected? That's exoneration. Well, 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.680 and let me underscore that, because that's a very good point. 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:46.520 I actually think Bill Clinton helped keep Barack Obama from 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:51.600 getting impeached. So now why is that Republicans impeach? And 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:56.280 actually Lindsay was manager, you don't reve this at home, okay, 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.840 And it backfired. It it hurt Republicans, it got Bill 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.679 hunt and reelected. It didn't work, and a lot of 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.280 Republicans took that message. Hey, wait a second, being seen 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:10.360 being two partisan, too aggressive of using impeachment. That's a problem. 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.359 And so when it came to Obama, look, Obama on 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.560 the abuse of power theory that we've heard from the 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.760 House managers. Obama abused his power in many respects, and 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.119 yet all of us agreed we shouldn't be impeaching Obama 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:24.720 we should beat him at the ballot box, which we 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.040