1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh, and 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: there's Chuck and jar Jar Binks is here too, and 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: that makes this short stuff. She's sitting in for dave C. 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: Everybody say hi to dave C. He'll be glad to 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: hear that later on. 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: Yes, and this is not about Pinky in the brain. 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: It's about Botox in the brain. 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Yes, it is. 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 2: Because when I saw Botox in the brain, I was like, 10 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: that sounds like a TV show, but I was like, no, 11 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking Pinky in the brain. 12 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: Now, Botox in the Brain is a cop show, not 13 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: a cartoon. 14 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: Big thanks to Helio and Live Science very well, health 15 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: study findes, Neuroscience News and other sources. Take it away, Josh. 16 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: So we're talking about botox, right. Botox, I believe is 17 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: a brand name, but it's like Kleenex. It's become a 18 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: proprietary eponym, is it really, Yes for sure. Yeah. There's 19 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: all sorts of different brands of botox, like Disport and 20 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: there's plenty of others, but what they all are is 21 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: theinum toxin or BTX, and that is produced by Clostridium 22 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: boculinum and botulism. Anybody who's ever seen dead calm knows 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: what botulism is and how horrible it's supposed to be. 24 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,839 Speaker 1: But it's a bacteria that grows in the absence of air, 25 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: typically on food. I think beef is like a real 26 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: big grower of botulism, which is why if you ever 27 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: have like a dented can of beef stew, just throw 28 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: it away because it could kill you. Because bochulin or yeah, 29 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: boculinum toxin is the most potent neurotoxin known to humans. 30 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 1: And the reason it's so potent, chuck is it goes 31 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: in there into your nerve cells and it binds to them, 32 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: and in particular, it binds to nerve cells where your 33 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: blood and your muscles meat, which is usually fairly close 34 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: to the skin, and it blocks the setylcholine from coming 35 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: and getting into those the ends of those nerve cells, 36 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: which means that those nerve cells just don't function, which 37 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: means that your muscle are paralyzed, which is bad enough 38 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: when it starts in your mouth, but then it goes 39 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: to your throat and eventually your lungs, and then you 40 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: die a really terrible death from botulism. So it's of 41 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: course totally unsurprising that somebody figured out that you could 42 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: use this incredibly potent neurotoxin to get rid of wrinkles. 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, using botulism met I'm sorry, Well, I guess it 44 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: is bochlism. Using botox medically came around the seventies with 45 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 2: doctor Alan B. Scott, who went to the FDA and said, Hey, 46 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: I think I can treat strabismus, which is I guess wandering. 47 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: I could be a lazy way of saying that or 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: lazy eye. Sure, and said I think I can treat 49 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 2: strabismus with this. FDA said, have at it. He would 50 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 2: inject it locally in the face. One thing that did 51 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: was prove that it was safe to do relatively speaking, 52 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: and it could treat muscle disorders. And then starting in 53 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: the two thousands is when it really came on the 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: scene with setians doing what we all think of as 55 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: you know Botox's main function now, which is you get 56 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: these injections locally and very specific places in your face usually, 57 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: and it takes three or four days, and then all 58 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: of a sudden, for about three months, you will be 59 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: walking around with a forehead smooth as a shiny apple 60 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: and an expression that says nothing. 61 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: Right, you can really get a good poker face from 62 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: around a bowtox. Yeah, so, yeah, it just relaxes those 63 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: muscles that cause the wrinkles, say around your eyes, around 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: your mouth, and your forehead in between your brow in particular, 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: those are called your elevens, and by paralyzing those muscles, 66 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: it relaxes them and hence the wrinkles aren't there anymore. 67 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: And like you said, it lasts for about three to 68 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: four months. And because you can't, you have just like 69 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: a blank face in a lot of ways, depending on 70 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: where you get the botox injection. You can't really smile, 71 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: like you physically are incapable of smiling because the muscles 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: involved are paralyzed. More often, you can't really frown or 73 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: furrow your brow because those muscles are paralyzed. And so right, 74 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: like right off the bat, people started reporting that if 75 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: you saw somebody with boatox, they couldn't express emotion using 76 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: their faces anymore for that three to four month period. 77 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, And to be clear, like you know, you can 78 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: make the shape of a smile with your mouth and 79 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: the shape of a smile or a frown with your mouth, 80 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 2: but what people you know, I think people realize this 81 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: is about say what people don't realize, but when you 82 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: think about it, is what I meant to say. You 83 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: express emotion with your faces. You smile and frown with 84 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: your face, not just your mouth. Sure, your mouth may 85 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: go up, your mouth may I guess, go down or 86 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: express upsettedness, But it's really you know, people smile with 87 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: their eyes and their faces and you know, like you said, 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: your brow gets furrowed. It's a whole face experience, which 89 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: is a great album title. Yeah, and botox. That's what 90 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: it cuts off. And that's what can be kind of 91 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: creepy looking, is when someone is smiling with their mouth 92 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 2: but the rest of their face is dead and it's 93 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: a little strange. 94 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, played a great effect in Insidious, Right, I love 95 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: that stuff. 96 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: Should we take a break because this is where things 97 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: get super interesting? 98 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: Yes? I agree, Yes, all right, we'll be right back, so, Chuck. 99 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: It makes sense that you can't really read someone's emotions 100 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: through their face after they've gotten a pretty good round 101 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: of botox. But there was something stranger that stood to 102 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: come in as reports from people who got botox injections 103 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 1: or other kinds of bachulin injections that they weren't experiencing 104 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: emotions like they used to, and in particular, this showed 105 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: up most pronouncedly in people who suffered from depression. They 106 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: started to notice that after they got botox injections in 107 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: certain parts of their face, especially around their forehead and 108 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: their brows, called the glabular region, their depression symptoms, if 109 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: they didn't, if they weren't alleviated totally, they were certainly 110 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: less pronounced than they have been before. And this was 111 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: a little odd. 112 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely a little bit odd. But so again, we're 113 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: not talking about showing emotion, we're talking about actually feeling 114 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: the emotion. Right, But there's this thing and it all 115 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: kind of makes sense when you look at the big 116 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 2: picture called the facial feedback hypothesis. Yes, and a very 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: sh dumb down way of saying it is that the 118 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: idea of like, hey, if you're feeling depressed, maybe just 119 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: try smiling more because that can actually work, and they've 120 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: done research on stuff like this. One way it can, 121 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: you know, manifests itself is we have this tendency to 122 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: mimic expressions of other people near us. And it's and 123 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 2: it probably comes from just evolution of like wanting to 124 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: fit in in a group and like, maybe so you 125 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: won't be killed like everyone else here is smiling it 126 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: that guy's and laughing at his joke, so I'm gonna 127 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: do the same thing, so I just fit in better. 128 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: And it's that facial feedback hypothesis at work, where it's 129 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: sort of this feedback loop of smiling from someone else 130 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: will usually lend to a smile even if you're not 131 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: feeling it especially happy. I'm not saying like everyone's in 132 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: a good mood so they're smiling, but literally just smiling 133 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: because someone else in is smiling, and then that will 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: in turn and generally make your emotions pick up as well. 135 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the opposite can be true too. If you're 136 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: scowling or you see someone else scowling, you mimic their 137 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: scowl unconsciously, it will have a depressed state on your mood, right. 138 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: And that's really interesting because people always thought that facial 139 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: expressions reflected what you felt inside, not vice versa. But 140 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: there's it definitely goes both ways, and that's the facial 141 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: feedback hypothesis. So when people started saying, like, my depression 142 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: symptoms are kind of alleviated when I get botox, they 143 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: chalked it up to facial feedback, and in particular, what 144 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: they suspected is that with your brow area, the glabular region, 145 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: so it's like the area right above the bridge of 146 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: your nose up to you know, and kind of spreading 147 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: out like a Jonathan Adler fan above your eyebrows for 148 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: a little bit. 149 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that's the you cut me off in traffic 150 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,239 Speaker 2: zone of my face exactly. 151 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 1: Well, put chuck, that's the new name of it. I 152 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: would say, if you get injections in that area, it 153 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: actually has an effect on your amygdala. A migdala is 154 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: the seed of your fight or flight just famous friend 155 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: of the podcast Fight or Flight, yeah response early days. Yeah, 156 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: it's the seed of negative emotions like anger, fear, anxiety, 157 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: and if you have depression, your amygdala is overactive and 158 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: it causes you to develop a bias toward interpreting the 159 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 1: world negatively and yourself negatively. And what they posited was 160 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: that botox short circuited that feedback loop by paralyzing the 161 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: muscles that trigger your amygdala to experience negative emotions or 162 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: produce negative emotions. 163 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and not necessarily that it can completely take away 164 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: those emotions, but it tamps it down and makes things 165 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: less intense. And so they you know, they basically stumbled 166 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: upon this saying where they can actually treat depression through 167 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 2: botox and checktions. 168 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: Yes, which is it's huge because it's not directly it's 169 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: not like they're injecting the needle into your amygdala and 170 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: inserting the botox. The botox is just acting on your muscles, 171 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: but it's indirectly acting on your amygdala, which makes it 172 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: a much safer treatment than save pharma that acts directly 173 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: on your amygdala chemically. 174 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've co this isn't just from talking to 175 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: people and getting that kind of feedback. This has been 176 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: confirmed in the Wonder machine and the fMRI. They've confirmed 177 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 2: these findings. They basically the scan showed different kinds of 178 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: altered activity in the amygdala if you were a depressed 179 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 2: patient who got those injections. And you know, they basically 180 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 2: are saying this is like a real thing now. 181 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: Yes, So yes, they've they've shown that it alters the 182 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: activity in the amygdala, and not just patients with depression, 183 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: but people who have borderline personality disorder as well. 184 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. 185 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: I think they're amygdala is on hyperdrive and The thing 186 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: that makes it different from Russian is that it's also 187 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: coupled with lower impulsivity threshold, so they're much more likely 188 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: to lash out at people around them with those negative emotions, 189 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: which is what we talked about in our Emotional pain episode. 190 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: Why it's just such a terrible disorder to have. But 191 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: it's their amygdala being hyperactive as well. And so they've 192 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: found that botox injections in the right place can actually 193 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: reduce or eliminate BPD as well, at least for the 194 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: three to four months until your muscles come back online 195 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: and are able to trigger those emotions again. 196 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you're an adherent of acupuncture and you think, hey, 197 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: this sounds kind of familiar, it's sort of along the 198 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: same lines. They did comparison group treatments with acupuncture patients. 199 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: In acupuncture, it did show improve clinical symptoms, but it 200 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 2: did not hold up under the Wonder machine examination. 201 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: No, Like, it still had its effect, but it didn't 202 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: have a neurological EFFECTX has neurological effect. It's actually acting 203 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: on the amygdila. It's huge. It was a huge, huge 204 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: breakthrough when they figured this out, and then now that 205 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: they've proved it It can also be used to treat 206 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: anxiety if you injected in your head and neck muscles. 207 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: And you can use botox to treat migrains. Yeah, and 208 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: insurance has started to cover it for migrains, but they're 209 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: hoping that they'll start to cover it for things like 210 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: depression or borderline personality disorder or anxiety as well. 211 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: Cover it insurance if it helps people, cover it for sure. 212 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: And my hat is off to my dear sweet wife. 213 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: You me who tipped me off to this one. 214 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: Oh nice, thanks yummy. 215 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks Jumy, since we both thanked Youmy chuck. Wouldn't 216 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: you say that short stuff is out? I would. 217 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 2: Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 218 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 219 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.