1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Here's a question. When's the last time you saw an 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: ad for an apartment for rent or a house for 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: sale and thought, yeah, that's a fair price. 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: Like places aren't renovated when they're charging the arm and 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: the leg. So it's very interesting to see, like there's 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: not modern at all, and I'm paying two thousand or 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 2: whatever for a one bedroom. I think it's crazy. 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 3: Now we're living at a place that is much more 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 3: expensive than what we want, and I'm just forced to 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 3: compromise elsewhere and make it work. 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 4: We were these second people to tour that place, and 12 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 4: we just had to commit on the spot there because 13 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 4: we don't have time to like really be wishy washy 14 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 4: about it. 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: The fact is the US doesn't have nearly enough affordable housing, 16 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: especially DNSE housing like apartment buildings and duplexes and triplexes, 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: and we've gotten worse as a nation at building them 18 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: than in past decades. Partly that's because it can be 19 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: hard to find a place to put them. Many people 20 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: have strong feelings about not having certain buildings in their neighborhoods, 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: especially if it's dense housing or designated as affordable housing. 22 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: It's the Nimbi effect. Sure build them somewhere, just not 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: in my backyard. 24 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 4: Even though the arguments can be very logical about why 25 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 4: this neighborhood in particular might not have an apartment building, 26 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 4: If you just apply that across the whole nation, what 27 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 4: you get are these disastrous effects like we see today. 28 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: That's Bloomberg City Lab reporter Kristin Capps. He's been following 29 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: changes in housing policy for years and Christian Rights that 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: now states with some of the most severe housing shortages, 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: like California, are getting serious about enforcing affordable housing plans 32 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: that are already on the books, and in some cases 33 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: pushing cities to build more with consequences if they don't. 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: Or is City Lab reporter Sarah Holder puts. 35 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 5: In, if you don't build a little, we're gonna make 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 5: you build a lot, or if you don't build anything, 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,639 Speaker 5: We're going to make you build something. 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: I'm West Kasova today on the Big Take States say 39 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: yes in your backyard, Sarah. We hear a lot these 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: days about the housing shortage, how hard it is to 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: find an apartment or buy a house. We used to 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: waste you about New York. Oh you can't find a place, 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,399 Speaker 1: But now that describes just about everywhere can you kind 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: of paint us a picture of this nationwide housing shortage? 45 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean one of the most striking examples that 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 5: I come back to year after year is this annual 47 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 5: report from the National Low Income Housing Coalition, which shows 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 5: that there are no states, and no cities and no 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 5: counties where a minimum wage worker can afford a two 50 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 5: bedroom apartment working a standard forty hour a week. So 51 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 5: let that sink in. Nowhere in the country, even where 52 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 5: minimum wage is twenty dollars an hour or seven to 53 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 5: twenty five an hour, which is the federal minimum wage, 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 5: can someone working a standard work week afford to live 55 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 5: in a modest two bedroom And in only nine percent 56 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 5: of states can people working a minimum wage job afford 57 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 5: a honest one bedroom. To give some contacts, in California, 58 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 5: you have to make forty dollars an hour to afford 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 5: a place to stay. And so that speaks to sort 60 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 5: of the broader affordability crisis that we're dealing with as 61 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 5: a nation. That also speaks to the fact that we're 62 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 5: dealing with a shortage of both affordable and just general 63 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 5: housing in this country. The National Low Income Housing Coalition 64 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 5: also estimated that there's a shortage of about seven million 65 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 5: affordable units in the country. Fannie May estimated in twenty 66 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 5: nineteen that there is a housing shortage of about four 67 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 5: million units nationwide, which could have only gotten worse during 68 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 5: the pandemic as there were labor shortages, supply chain issues, 69 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 5: and we've seen sort of the effects of that. 70 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: What's the rental market? What's the picture for people who 71 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: want to buy a house? 72 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 4: Opportunities for homeowners are limited to It used to be 73 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 4: the case that a young family could buy a starter home, 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 4: invest build up some equity, kind of move up as 75 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 4: their family grew. Those starter homes are harder and harder 76 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 4: to come by, and they're such lucrative investments that big 77 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 4: institutional buyers have jumped in to buy these homes turn 78 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 4: them into rentals, and so what were once single family 79 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 4: homes for buyers are now the kind of properties that 80 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 4: people are hoping to rent or even struggling to rent 81 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 4: because you know, they could raise the rents because opportunities 82 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 4: for renters are so limited. 83 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: And I guess that's one reason why we have this 84 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: housing shortage, Sarah, what are some of the other reasons, 85 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: Like why are homes so hard to find? 86 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 5: One of the issues is that there just hasn't been 87 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 5: enough building to keep up with the demand. Especially after 88 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 5: the Great Recession, building slowed down. Housing prices have been 89 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 5: rising faster than wages can keep up, and zoning restrictions 90 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 5: are making it really hard for new housing to get 91 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 5: off the ground, even where it's needed. 92 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: Sarah, can you just tell us what exactly is building zoning? 93 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 5: So zoning rules determine what can be built where in 94 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 5: American cities. For a long time, zoning was pretty loose. 95 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 5: You know, American cities could build a single family home, 96 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 5: they could convert it into a three story development. But 97 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 5: after some of the struggles of urban renewal, which saw 98 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 5: a lot of destruction and a lot of tearing apart 99 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 5: of communities, especially communities of color, there was a movement 100 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 5: to down zone whole swaths of the country. So instead 101 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 5: of being able to build a single family home here, 102 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 5: a three story home there, having sort of diverse and 103 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 5: multi use kinds of neighborhoods, there's an effort to restrict 104 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 5: building more so in some places you would only be 105 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 5: able to build a single family home for miles and miles. 106 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 5: It led to a situation where in California, for example, 107 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 5: two thirds of the land was restricted to only build 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 5: single family homes until very recently. 109 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 4: One thing that's really interesting is that a lot of 110 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 4: cities have zoning that would not allow the cities that 111 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 4: exist to be built today. In Seattle, for example, you 112 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 4: have whole areas that are zoned for single families where 113 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 4: people really value the character of the local community. But 114 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 4: what's actually built in those neighborhoods and in those streets 115 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 4: are smaller apartment buildings, duplex's, triplexes, things that have been 116 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 4: allowed over time, things that have changed over time, the 117 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 4: way that cities kind of normally typically evolve. So when 118 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 4: people local homeowners talk about the character of the community 119 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: they cherish and wanting to keep that zoning that's restricted 120 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: to single family homes. Especially, that's not actually the character 121 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 4: of the community that they're often describing. 122 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: So what is the reason for this restrictive zoning? Where 123 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: are they trying to achieve with it? 124 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 5: A lot of the times it is homeowners that want 125 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 5: to preserve that character that Kristen was talking about. They 126 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 5: are used to a cul de sac a neighborhood with 127 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: these single family homes, and they're afraid of what might 128 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 5: happen if an apartment or even a duplex or a 129 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 5: triplex was built, and it ends up sort of preserving 130 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 5: homogeneity of neighborhoods and separating density from sprawl. 131 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and density is something we hear about a lot. 132 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: How much of this is just concerned that we're going 133 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: to pack so many people into small places that it's 134 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: going to make it an unpleasant place to live. 135 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 4: You know, those fears about infrastructure, those fears about local use, traffic, noise, 136 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 4: cars on the street where people are going to park, 137 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 4: always get raised in any kind of conversation, But there 138 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 4: are really negative impacts of not allowing any density, of 139 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 4: keeping very exclusive communities. While it might be very good 140 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 4: if you are a homeowner in that area and you 141 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 4: have access to great amenities like good schools and great 142 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 4: parks and low noise and low crime, it's bad to 143 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 4: exclude people from that. And it also hurts those families 144 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 4: who are on the inside eventually, you know, if they 145 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 4: have kids, those kids, when they come out and are 146 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 4: trying to make their own way, don't have the incomes 147 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 4: to afford to live in those exclusive communities, have to live, 148 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 4: you know, somewhere else. So even though the arguments can 149 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 4: be very logical about why this neighborhood in particular might 150 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 4: not have an apartment building, if you just apply that 151 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 4: across the whole nation, what you get are you know, 152 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 4: these disastrous effects like we see today. 153 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 5: One of the other things that happen when there is 154 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 5: this exclusive zoning and neighborhoods is there becomes a big 155 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 5: housing jobs mismatch, a spatial mismatch where people who do 156 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 5: the work in the cities can't afford to live nearby 157 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 5: those jobs. And that also has ripple effects both for 158 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 5: people who are having to commute long distances, contributing to 159 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 5: carbon impact and a reduce quality of life, and also 160 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 5: for folks who live in these cities who are not 161 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 5: having access to a functioning and stable economy. People can't 162 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 5: afford to live where they work. 163 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 4: Zoning also serves as the de facto color lines. In 164 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 4: the United States. Racial segregation is no longer legal. A 165 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 4: neighborhood can't say that no people of color can move in, 166 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 4: that no families of a certain size can't move in, 167 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 4: no immigrants can move in. What we have seen is 168 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 4: that by communities setting up these rules about what kinds 169 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 4: of housing can be built. They have managed to set 170 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 4: up barriers to entry that affect primarily renters, that affect 171 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 4: a lot of people of color, minorities, and it has 172 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 4: resis resulted in segregated communities across the United States, many 173 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 4: decades after segregation was ruled illegal and unconstitutional. 174 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: After the break, California gets serious with cities that don't 175 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: build housing, Kristen, A lot of states have tried to 176 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: figure out what to do about this problem. You recently 177 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: wrote a big piece that focuses on California, which is 178 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 1: a place I think a lot of people know as 179 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: being a place where housing is very expensive, and you 180 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: write about this state housing policy called a builder's remedy. 181 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: It's kind of complicated. Can you explain it in simple terms? 182 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 4: The state of California has set in recent years certain 183 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 4: goals for housing production across the state. It is said 184 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 4: to cities and communities, you've got to start allowing housing 185 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 4: to be built, and here are the numbers that you 186 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 4: need to meet as a region, as an area. If 187 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 4: cities don't meet those targets and don't permit that housing, 188 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 4: then the thing that they fear most happens. The state 189 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 4: comes in tells developers, there's a zoning holiday, you can 190 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 4: build what you want. That's what cities fear. They don't 191 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 4: want builders coming in without they're having some say on 192 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,119 Speaker 4: what gets built. So a builder's remedy or a zoning holiday. 193 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 4: Is that kind of triggered situation when a city isn't 194 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 4: meeting its goals and a state is sepping in said 195 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 4: you're not doing enough, so we're going to do it 196 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 4: for you. 197 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a carrot and a stick 198 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: at the same time, Is that right, sir? 199 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's saying if you don't build a little, we're 200 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 5: going to make you build a lot, or if you 201 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 5: don't build anything, we're going to make you build something. 202 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: And so the idea here is that this never actually happens, 203 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: that it's such a punitive step that states will fall 204 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: in line so that the builders don't just get to 205 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: come in and build high rises everywhere and there's nothing 206 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: they can do to stop it. 207 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 4: Right, you're not actually supposed to trigger the builder's remedy. 208 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 4: The state never intended that. They didn't outline it that way. 209 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 4: A State Senator Scott Wiener, who's been really instrumentally designing 210 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 4: a lot of these housing laws for California over the 211 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 4: last few years. He told me, it's a chaotic situation 212 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 4: when the builder's remedy kicks in. Ideally we don't want 213 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 4: it to kick in. 214 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: So how has this worked out, Sarah? Since they put 215 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: this in place in California, are cities now snapping to 216 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: attention and approving housing projects. 217 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 5: The impacts of this have been small so far, but 218 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 5: we're already seeing some cities get into fights with the 219 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 5: state and the state Attorney General over whether they're meeting 220 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 5: their housing production goals and the builder's remedy has been 221 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 5: brought to bear. 222 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 4: As you might imagine, a lot of this activity is 223 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 4: focused around the San Francisco Bay area and the Loss 224 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 4: Angelis metro area. In those places, they had mixed results 225 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 4: when it came to delivering their actual housing production targets, 226 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: basically certifying a plan that would say we're going to 227 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 4: build this much like the state has told us to, 228 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 4: this is how we're going to do it. What State 229 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 4: Senator Scott Weener told me was that in his discussions, 230 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 4: you had certain cities where it was easy. You had 231 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 4: certain cities where they had to be dragged to the 232 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 4: table to make these goals, and then you had a 233 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 4: few that said, no way, we're not doing it. We 234 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 4: don't really think that's a law. For example, in the 235 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 4: Bay Area, a suburb Sonoma said no thanks to the 236 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 4: builder's remedy. In Los Alto's Hills, which is in Silicon Valley, 237 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 4: they said they just weren't going to take these applications. 238 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 4: And what happened, Well, now the state has to enforce 239 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 4: its law. This is the outcome that nobody wanted, but 240 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 4: it's happening. Huntington, for example, which is in Orange County, 241 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 4: past a local law banning builder's remedy applications, so the 242 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 4: state Attorney general sued. 243 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 5: In some places, this is starting to work as intended. 244 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 5: In San Francisco, for example, which has been historically pretty 245 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 5: resistant to change in its zoning into building, they drew 246 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 5: up an ambitious plan to build eighty two thousand new 247 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 5: units by twenty thirty two, and Kristin describes that that 248 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 5: was done out of fear of what might happen if 249 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 5: developers were given this free reign that we're talking about. 250 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: Are there any places where the city didn't meet the 251 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: state requirements? Builders moved in and did build new construction 252 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: against the city's wishes. 253 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 4: Yes, that's happening. There are a few examples across California 254 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 4: where builders are taking advantage of a zoning holiday. In 255 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 4: Santa Monica, for example, the city kind of got roiled 256 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 4: by this argument about exactly how they were going to 257 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: meet this housing production plan. They couldn't come together. The 258 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 4: deadline came and passed, and so developer showed up with 259 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 4: plans to move about sixteen projects, some reaching up to 260 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 4: fifteen stories tall, which is just way, way taller than 261 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 4: anyone in Santa Monica wants to build. So that has 262 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 4: a way of focusing the mind, and suddenly they got 263 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 4: their housing production targets in order. 264 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: Christin, you also report that there's kind of another wrinkle, 265 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: which is, even though developers are able to move in 266 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,359 Speaker 1: and build in places where they don't meet the state requirements, 267 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily want to do it. They don't want 268 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: to have a big fight with a city. 269 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was one of the most interesting things I 270 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 4: learned from my reporting, and that was from talking to 271 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 4: an advocate named Sonya Traus. She has led this movement 272 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 4: to try to use the law on behalf of people 273 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 4: who might live in these apartment buildings were they ever built. 274 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 4: What she explained to me is that developers don't really 275 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 4: want to have these knockdown, drag out battles with local 276 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 4: officials who they work with every day and need to 277 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 4: work with every day. Oftentimes, if a city comes back 278 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 4: to a developer and says no, this plan won't work, 279 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 4: the developer will just change course. They can build something else, 280 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: They can build somewhere else. So it's been a goal 281 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 4: of housing advocates who are really passionate about this whole 282 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 4: project to zoe those cities in order to get those 283 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: projects pass, even if developers aren't the one fighting tooth 284 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: and nail to make that happen. 285 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 5: Another thing Trus said that I thought was interesting was 286 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 5: that if developers don't want to fight these battles and 287 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 5: they end up going somewhere else, the somewhere else they 288 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 5: often go is potentially more economically desperate, less exclusive already, 289 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 5: and so the exclusive neighborhoods that are really ready to 290 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 5: fight new development stay exclusive, and the poorer, less affluent, 291 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 5: more open to new housing neighborhoods end up absorbing a 292 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 5: lot of that growth when. 293 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: We come back. Is one solution to the housing crisis. 294 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: Suing the suburbs Kristian before the break, Serah was talking 295 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: about how advocates are pressing pretty hard for more housing, 296 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: and one of the things we're seeing is this sue 297 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 1: the suburbs movement. Can you tell us what that is. 298 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, advocates want to hold these places accountable. They want 299 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 4: to compel them to follow state law and build housing 300 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 4: even when they do not want to. I'll give you 301 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 4: an example in Lafayette, California. That's a small town in 302 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 4: Contra Coasta County, a very affluent area. In twenty eleven, 303 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 4: a developer approach the city with a three hundred and 304 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 4: fifteen unit apartment complex on a twenty two acre property, 305 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 4: pretty standard. The city shot that down, so the develop 306 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 4: leupper came back with proposal for forty four single family homes. 307 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 4: Four years later, the city had approved this plan. That's 308 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 4: when trial's housing advocate in California, who's let a lot 309 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 4: of these sue the suburbs efforts, sued the Suburbs and said, no, 310 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,239 Speaker 4: you actually do have to approve that apartment building. And 311 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 4: it went, you know, back and forth for years and years. 312 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 4: The California Supreme Court just settled that matter. This is 313 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 4: a twelve year saga over a three hundred plus unit 314 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 4: apartment building. So that's the kind of inertia that we're 315 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 4: talking about overcoming. And it's an uphill battle for these 316 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 4: advocates and these attorneys who have really seized on it. 317 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 4: But they're hoping that it will snowball. Cities will see this, 318 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 4: They'll say, I don't want to be sued for the 319 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 4: next twelve years. I'm just going to approve the apartment building. 320 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: Sarah. We're talking all about California, but it's not just there. 321 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: If you go all the way across the other side 322 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: of the country in New York, we're seeing Governor Kathy 323 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: Hochel also pushing for more housing development. What's going on there. 324 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 5: So Hokel had an ambitious plan to compel suburbs to 325 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 5: build more housing, especially near transit. The numbers would have 326 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 5: been really ambitious. There was talk of building eight hundred 327 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 5: thousand units over the next decade, but the Senate and 328 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 5: the Assembly both rejected her proposal. During the budget process, 329 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 5: they were favoring an approach that would offer more carrots 330 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 5: than sticks, so basically incentivizing and rewarding suburbs that did 331 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 5: build housing. Instead of punishing suburbs that didn't. 332 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: This is going to be something I'm going to continue 333 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: to work on until we solve this, and that's my 334 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: commitment to New Yorkers. I feel a little bit like 335 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: Wayne Bretzky, you missed one hundred percent of the shots 336 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: you don't take. I took the shot. 337 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 5: The dissolution of this landmark plan that Hochel was pushing 338 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 5: to produce more housing in New York State over the 339 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 5: next decade really exemplify sort of the backlash from the 340 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 5: again typically wealthier suburbs to allow housing to be built 341 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 5: in their backyards. And it's also a really powerful constituency 342 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 5: in New York. It also showed that these issues don't 343 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 5: leave so neatly across party lines, like you think of 344 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 5: New York State as this blue state. At the Hochel 345 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 5: she's a Democrat. A lot of people in the state 346 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 5: Senate and the Assembly are Democrats as well, but that 347 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 5: doesn't mean that they're open to new housing. 348 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 4: New York tried to borrow from all these different places. 349 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: They had an element that was builder's remedy from California. 350 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 4: They had parts of Massachusetts affordable housing prescriptions. They had 351 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 4: parts of plans in New Jersey, they were looking internationally 352 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 4: and they had a really complicated blend of carrots and 353 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 4: sticks to really really overhaul housing not just in New 354 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: York City but across the state. And it just ran 355 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 4: against the shoals of exclusive suburbs. And until those lawmakers 356 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 4: see the peril of keeping housing out see the cost 357 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 4: that that means not just for the state but for 358 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 4: their communities too, it's going to be really difficult for 359 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 4: even a unified government all the way to pass this 360 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 4: kind of legislation. 361 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: Christin, you mentioned Massachusetts as a place that New York 362 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 1: is looking to for ideas. What are they doing there 363 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: that New York would want to copy. 364 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 4: They had this law on the books. It's called Chapter 365 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 4: forty B. This law and a lot of laws that 366 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 4: we're talking about that have been around forever, haven't totally 367 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 4: been enforced, who have been on state books, were passed 368 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 4: after Martin Luther King's assassination, and this long Massachusetts requires 369 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 4: communities across the state to guarantee that at least ten 370 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 4: percent of housing everywhere, every town, every city has to 371 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 4: be deemed affordable. That was meant to allow for more 372 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 4: integration across neighborhoods, and they have a builder's remedy too 373 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 4: for cities that aren't meeting that target. 374 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: And how did that turn out? 375 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 4: What advocates say in Massachusetts is that, you know, it's 376 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 4: mostly happened around the Boston area, as you might expect, 377 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 4: and there have been some suits to force different cities 378 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 4: to comply. It's worked, and yet Massachusetts still has an 379 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: affordable housing program. And that's because it's a pretty arbitrary 380 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 4: thing to have state lawmakers say in nineteen sixty nine, 381 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 4: this is going to be the level of affordable housing 382 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 4: we're going to have, and that's what we're going to 383 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 4: use for the next fifty sixty years. So what they're 384 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 4: looking to do is to you know, change those numbers, 385 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 4: build a more modern program, get different ways of making 386 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 4: sure affordable housing is built in places that don't want 387 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 4: to build it. 388 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: Sarah, I guess this entire conversation really illustrates where we began, 389 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: which is to explain why it's been so difficult to 390 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: build affordable housing. There are so many entrenched power centers, 391 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: all of them fighting each other. And you mentioned something interesting. 392 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: You know, we hear about Nimby all the time, not 393 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: in my backyard. But there's this other side of this 394 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: movement among advocates, the yimbi yes in my backyard movement. 395 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: Is this actually gaining momentum? Do you think over time 396 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: we are going to start to see more housing being developed. 397 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 5: You can see the change just in the amount of 398 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 5: policies that are being passed in the state level. In California, 399 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 5: Kristen and I have covered Senator Scott Wiener's struggle year 400 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 5: after year to get these kinds of sweeping up zoning 401 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 5: bills pass and we've covered them as they've failed and 402 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 5: now as they've succeeded. That's being mirrored in other states 403 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 5: like Montana and even New York's push to try and 404 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 5: up zone was sort of a symbol of how far 405 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 5: this movement has come. We talked a little bit about 406 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 5: how slow some of the progress has been in seeing 407 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,959 Speaker 5: results on the streets in terms of the number of 408 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 5: housing units actually built regardless of these policy changes, or 409 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 5: you know, even the number of unhoused people on our streets. 410 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 5: But you have to remember that for as long as 411 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 5: it takes for policy to be passed, it also takes 412 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 5: a long time to build things. You know, there's getting 413 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 5: the budget together, getting the permits together. The supply is 414 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 5: the labor, and you know, inherently some of the things 415 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,959 Speaker 5: getting approved today under these policies take years to finish. 416 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 5: That's a whole other problem that advocates are also tackling. 417 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 5: It's definitely seems like there's been a ground swell in 418 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 5: terms of momentum and urgency, and the question is when 419 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 5: we'll be able to see that when I go out 420 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 5: and look for an affordable apartment to rent. 421 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: And Sarah and Kristen, what do you think the answer 422 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: to that question is, you've both been covering housing policy 423 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: for a while. What are you looking for is you 424 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: continue to write about this. 425 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 5: I'm interested in looking at what other states and what 426 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 5: other cities sort of carry the torch from places like California. 427 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 5: I'm also personally really interested in tenant protections and other 428 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 5: sorts of policies down the stream that can prevent displacement 429 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 5: of people who have found affordable units in this difficult 430 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 5: housing market. 431 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 4: I'm interested to see how these different efforts to promote 432 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 4: housing wind up getting polarized. In Montana, this really fascinating 433 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: thing happened where they look to California and all the 434 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 4: Californians that they fear or moving to Montana and said, 435 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 4: we don't want that, we don't want those housing problems. 436 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 4: And so socially conservative Republicans united with progressive Democrats and 437 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 4: passed the sweeping number of housing bills like within like 438 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 4: a single hunting season. It's just under a year. They 439 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: went from talking about the problem to passing bills that 440 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 4: California had taken a decade to get done. I'm interested 441 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 4: in seeing how this plays out, especially when we're talking 442 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 4: about builder's remedy or zoning holiday. That's a state forcing 443 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 4: cities to act, and you can imagine a lot of 444 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 4: places I'm thinking Texas, Florida where a governor might say 445 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 4: to liberal cities, you got to start building homes. And 446 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 4: I have the power to make that happen. And I 447 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 4: wonder why we haven't seen more of that. 448 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: Kristin Sarah, thanks so much for coming on the show, 449 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for having us, thanks for listening to us here 450 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: at the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg 451 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 452 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And we'd love to 453 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big 454 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of the 455 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. 456 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: Our producers are Michael Falleero and Mobarrow. Bill de Garcia 457 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: is engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron. I'm West Kasova. 458 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.