WEBVTT - Teach and Retire Rich w/ Dan Otter #851 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome too, had a money I'm Joel and I am Matt. 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.720 Today we're talking about teaching and retiring rich with Dan Otter. 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:26.120 Yeah. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.479 So teaching is not typically synonymous with accumulating vast quantities 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.040 of wealth, but our guest today, Dan Otter, he is 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.680 here to say otherwise. And actually it turns out that 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.519 teachers might have a way to totally supercharge their retirement 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.479 by investing even more money than they otherwise thought it 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.240 was possible or excited to get to that. But Dan Otter, 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.920 he is an elementary school teacher turned for a three 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.080 B hero in the world of teachers. He is the 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.560 founder of the much referenced site for threebys dot org. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:00:59.880 And we are pumped to discuss the different ways that 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.360 teachers can financially prepare for their futures. Teaching, by the way, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.319 an incredibly underrated profession. I'm sure you would agree, Dan. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.080 But we're excited to talk about four three bes, four 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.679 fifty sevens, pensions, all of that and more today. Thank 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:13.120 you for joining us today on the podcast. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.320 Oh it's my pleasure. I'm very happy to join you guys. 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.720 We're excited to have you Dan. And the first question 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:20.520 we got to ask you, We ask everybody who comes 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:22.920 on is what's your craft beer equivalent? Which means what 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.880 is it that maybe you spend more on than some 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.319 people would think of sane, But hey, it's okay because 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:29.120 you're still doing the smart things with your money. You're 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:30.560 still saving and investing for the future. 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:32.680 Well, if you'd asked me this question three years ago, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.480 I probably would have said craft beer. I have been 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.959 a long time craft beer fan. I mentioned before we 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:43.960 started recording how I came to our town. It was 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.480 to work at a university here, at the University of 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:52.919 Redlands in Redlands, California, southern California, and I ran something 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.960 called the School of Continuing Studies. I was an associate 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.680 dean and I had to come up with classes that 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.120 would be interesting to the public. And I started a 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.320 class called From Beer to Eternity. It was the history 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.720 of beer and we would hold it at the local 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.320 breweries and it was super, super popular. It was like 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.320 one day, like I think, three hours, a lot of tasting, 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.760 but there's the custory. Yeah, people loved it, and there's 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.120 some interesting history around the development of civilization in beer, 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:23.360 you know. 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:24.399 Oh yeah. 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:26.560 One of the readings was a New York Times article 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.080 that made the case that beer helped advance society, creativity, 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:35.040 socialization kind of sounds like college right. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:37.400 Not to mention safe drinking water safe. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.440 We're also firm believers that it accelerates your finances. 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.040 So yeah, the right. But you're absolutely right about the health. 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.640 You know, the safety. You know you could you could die, 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.560 you know, drinking the wrong thing, whereas beer had been 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.480 fermented and you know, pretty healthy. But that was what 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:56.760 I would answer three years ago. I have to tell you, guys, 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:58.600 I'm not drinking as much as I used to. But 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.400 I will tell you what I will gladly spend money on, 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.959 and that is experiences I will upgrade for better concert seats. Now, 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.320 we just went, my wife and I just went to 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:12.840 Vegas to the Sphere to see Las, to see Las Vegas, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.760 to see you too. And I'm like, this is not 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.000 a brag, but tickets were five hundred dollars apiece and 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:24.200 they were worth every single penny. I cannot recommend the Sphere. 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:26.280 Specifically you too. 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:28.880 I'm not gonna lie. I've got a little bit of 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.760 regret not having missed out on that. And yeah, I 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.239 don't know if ph'll be another opportunity to go see 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.320 you t specifically, but I'm like, oh, dang it, I 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:37.120 kind of feel like I. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.280 Should have I should spend that's wait for Hanson to 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:40.360 come to the Sphere someday. 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.680 Remember it haught my way over there. Maybe you can 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:44.040 join me. 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.520 Dan Well, I think you guys should go easier on 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.080 yourselves because you're in your early forties, late thirties. I 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.640 think I heard and I was there, not that well now, 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.040 it's like eighteen years ago, but I was there and 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.600 I said no to a bunch of things. I went 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.280 to San Diego State and I think it was maybe 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.960 twelve thirteen years ago. They were in the I think 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.640 it was the final eight or sixteen or something. You know. 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.640 I know they got to the final, you know, year ago, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.880 which was a massive deal, but they finally got passed. 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.839 I think it was the thirty two got to the sixteen, 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:16.760 and I was living in New Mexico at the time, 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:18.800 and they were playing in California, and my buddy's like, 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.480 let's go, and I said no. It's a little bit 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.880 like your Sphere story. I don't regret saying no, because 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.719 it would have been too much financially at that time. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.400 But now that I'm fifty nine, you know, we still 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.839 have a kid in college, a pretty pricey college, and 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.440 then a daughter who's living on her own. She's young professional. 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.520 I am willing to spend money on that kind of stuff, 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.320 and I am willing to spend money on travel. My 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.600 wife and I went to Paris and Katar. Not many 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.799 people make that combination unless they're going to watch soccer. 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.880 But we did that in December. And I would say 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.599 one of my sneaky travel tips, which might not be 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.800 you know that much of a sneaky tip, is to 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.159 travel into December to Europe. It is less crowded. People 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.960 are happier to see you. They are frankly overseeing Americans 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.359 in the summer. At least five different people told me that. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.880 Plus you're not running into a million Americans who July 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.239 just overrun travel when everybody else isn't. 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.760 Yeah, thanks for sharing, dan Zag. Yeah yeah, okay, can 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.080 you kick it off? Tell us the personal store like 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.920 your own experience. Essentially that kicked off the obsession for 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.200 you with the which I have a lot of obsessions. 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.320 The four three journey specifically is what we want to 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:34.920 talk about now. 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.200 Absolutely, so, you had mentioned I was an elementary school teacher. 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.440 So we're going back to the early nineties, first year 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.920 on the job, maybe my third month on the job. 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.719 I know very little about saving for retirement, but I'm 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:49.960 thrilled because I know I have a pension. I don't 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.480 even know how it works, but I've been told, look, 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:54.920 you work X number of years, when you retire, you'll 0:05:54.960 --> 0:06:00.400 get a percentage of your final paycheck until you pass away. Boy, 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:04.800 that sounded really great after working in journalism for three 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.279 years and having no retirement benefits or health benefits. But 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.520 one day, the kids had left for the day. It 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.479 was about four o'clock. I'm at my desk desperately trying 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.800 to get ready for the next day's instruction. Any teacher 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.280 listening to this understand the terror of being a first 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.719 year teacher, where every day is a massive challenge, and 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.039 that first year is a challenge. And so I've got 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.760 my head down and there's a knock at my classroom door. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.839 Woman opens the door, pokes her head in and says 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:40.279 a rather jarring comment, do you care about your financial future? 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:41.680 Wow? 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.440 Okay, you're so busy with your work and you hear 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.760 this question. I think there's only one answer, right, I think, 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.080 especially the kind of podcast you guys have. Well, yes, 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.120 So she takes as an invitation to come in my 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.679 room and she starts talking about these investments. And again 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.000 I have some vague idea of my life pension, but 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.320 I have no idea what she's talking about. And she 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.200 said she helps the teacher next door, the teacher down 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.640 the hall, and she had the paperwork. Guys, paperwork filled out. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:13.280 All I had to do was sign it, and I 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.840 think one hundred dollars a month would have gone to 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.320 this investment. I'm a very skeptical person. I don't like 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.440 the hard sell, and so I just said, look, if 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.640 I'm interested, i'll get back in touch, thank you for 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.520 your time. Lucky for me, I did not get back 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.240 in touch with her, because I started asking questions of 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.960 my colleagues. I started self educating myself about saving for retirement, 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:42.000 and guys, this is pre podcast era, pre internet, just 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.320 you couldn't get that information. I mean, I started subscribing 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.880 to magazines like Money magazine, and what I started to 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.680 learn was, yes, teachers had a pension, but they also 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.640 had not one, but two supplemental retirement plans. And at 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.360 the time I learned about the four H three B, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:05.280 the oldest retirement plan available to teachers. It actually surprisingly 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:07.880 to people when they hear this. It predates the four 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.440 one K by twenty years. So the four H three 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:14.720 B was created nineteen fifty eight. So and teachers can 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.000 also contribute to a four to fifty seven B, but 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.280 it wasn't as common at that time, the early nineties. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.440 And we'll get into the fourty seven because I actually 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.520 think it's a better plan than the four H three B. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.280 But I started researching the four oh three B, and 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.160 I was horrified when I found out because I had 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:34.560 learned you wanted to save in low cost funds. Vanguard 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.280 is the company I kept hearing about when I would read, 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.280 you know, money magazine Kiplinger Personal Finance. But that wasn't 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.200 the case for teachers. Listen to this, guys. I taught 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:48.160 in a school district called Corona, Norco Unified School District 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.520 in nineteen ninety two. They had, I'm not kidding you, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.240 one hundred different financial companies available. 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:57.960 Could you talk about choice overload? 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.520 Oh my god? And then imagine each company might have 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.360 let's just say modestly six different investment choices which we 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.080 know is on the very, very very low end. So 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.240 you're talking it's almost like the number of combinations of 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.600 Starbuck drinks, right, what is that ten thousand? I don't know, 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.760 So it is overwhelming. And then the thing you find 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:22.000 out is it's mostly a sales army that is selling 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.760 these products. They're going into classrooms, they're going into staff lounges, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.480 they're providing so called free lunch. And so now we're 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.800 like three four years from this encounter, and I'm getting 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.480 angry and angrier because I'm sitting in my staff lounge 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.240 and I'm hearing my colleagues say, oh, my guy or 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.200 my woman, Oh yeah, I'm all set up. And now 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.520 I was a little bit savvy. I could ask questions, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.520 what do you know what you're paying in fees? Oh, 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.200 there's no fees, right, That's like the funny thing. As 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.200 soon as you hear that, you know, the BS detector 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.600 goes off. And so with one colleague, I said, well, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.120 I can almost bet my life that you're paying some 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.199 type of fee. Why don't you your statement and I'll 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.000 take a look, And she did, and I was able 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.760 to show her where she was paying. I think it 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.679 was over two percent. Not only that, there was a 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.480 fifteen year surrender penalty. Oh my gosh, so she wanted 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.760 to move hers too. And actually, here's what's crazy. Vanguard 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.960 was actually available. So of those one hundred vendors, you 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.920 go down the list, oh my god, there's Vanguard. So 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.400 I signed up with Vanguard, and I admit I felt 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.120 kind of smug. I had yet to meet anyone at 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.000 this point in my district who had contributed to Vanguard, 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.600 because I had to open it myself. They had all 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.240 gone with the sales agent who had come to the room, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:41.120 to their staff lounge. But this colleague I helped. She said, 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.760 Oh my gosh, you should put on workshops. So now 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.840 we're getting to like nineteen eighty ninety eight, ninety nine, 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:51.400 and the internet's becoming a thing. People are starting websites. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.760 I mean, it was very very raw back then. And 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:59.000 I started four or three BIS with a fellow teacher 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.880 who's no longer in. And I have to tell you, guys, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.320 I kind of think part of our secret sauce is 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:08.200 our name. We initially had an absurdly long name like 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.160 teacher financial Information dot com, and we just knew that 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.040 was a loser of a name, and my buddy and 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.440 I was really a perfect collaboration because he said, I've 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.000 heard that you want to have the name of what 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.600 you're doing in the title, So you want four to 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:27.000 oh three B. At the time was I had a 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.800 young child and we were reading a book called baby Wise. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.400 I don't even know if that's a thing anymore. It's 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.520 this whole philosophy around raising kids, and so I think 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.559 that's what was in my mind, and it just seemed 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.080 to make sense. Four to oh three be wise, and 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.920 we think that's kind of a little bit of it. Yeah, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.800 it works, It's so simple, and so we launched it 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.600 in two thousand and all of a sudden, a teacher 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.360 from LA who had been advocating for four oh three 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.959 b's before me, gentleman named Steve Shuloh, who I call 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.880 the godfather of four oh three B reform, he heard 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.280 about our website and he started promoting it, and then 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.080 he contacted me and said, hey, listen, there's a reporter 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.680 from US News and World Report coming out to LA 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.720 to interview me about the K twelve four oh three B. 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.080 I'll see if he wants to talk to you, and 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.280 he did. So we were living. I was living in 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.960 Orange County at the time. So he came and we 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.599 met at a restaurant, and you know, I think it 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.120 was just a little blurb in a story, but he 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.120 put our website four oh threebwis dot org, and all 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.280 of a sudden, you know, you could track your visitorship. 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.840 It started spiking. And I used to listen to this 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.400 NPR show called Sound Money. It was out of Minneapolis, 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.319 and again no podcast back then, so if you want 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.560 to listen to this radio program, you are at the 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.560 radio at the designated time, and I think it was 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.400 like eleven am on Saturdays. I would usually be in 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.200 my yard working on my vegetable garden, and it was 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.680 something I look forward to all week. So I emailed 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:03.520 them and I said, oh, I love what you guys do. 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.360 I would love if you covered the four oh three 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.880 b oh By the way, I have this website four 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.880 oh three be wise, and we were just mentioned in 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:16.400 US News and World Report almost immediately, probably like within 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.480 two hours. This is on a Saturday. They emailed me 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.680 back and they said, oh, that sounds like a great topic. 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.160 Would you like to be on our show in like 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:28.040 two weeks And immediately Guys, my fingers got moist, and 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.199 because of life nerves, I'm like, oh my god, I'm 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:34.600 going to be on this radio show. And so I 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:40.040 somehow survived, and boy did our visitorship spike so much 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:44.000 so that someone from TIA Kraf reached out to me 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.760 and said, hey, we love what you're doing. We've been 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.960 wanting to help reform the four h three BE market 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:57.439 in California. Guys, in California, we have this insane insurance 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:01.240 code from when Nixon was the president that says if 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.160 a school district offers one four to oh three B vendor, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.440 they have to open it up to all vendors. That's 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.680 why we had one hundred vendors. That's why LA had 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.400 two one hundred and fifty vendors. Can you imagine aggregating 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:14.960 that money? 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.000 Bad laws essentially create a terrible system. 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.280 It's incentives, right, people respond to incentives. You're going to 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.200 allow two hundred and fifty vendors? Think of all the 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.960 sales agents. It was insane. It's a little bit better now. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.880 So we got involved with TIA Craft to push this 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.320 legislative effort and I'm so naive. I'm like, who could 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.120 be against this? Well, I'll tell you what a one 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.680 hundred million billion dollar industry. These set of guns bought 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.680 the domain name four oh threebis dot net, which I 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.520 now own, But they bought that and they had the 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:48.760 opposite message. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.200 So dirty, it was so dirty, especially with so hard. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.480 It's a labor of love. It's passionate, it's it's it's 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.040 looking over individual teachers, your friends who you work with 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.720 their statements, and then it turns into this mission that's 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.600 not profit oriented to educate people. I'm curious. I want 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:07.800 to talk. We want to talk a lot about four 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:09.120 or three bees and get into kind of some of 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.280 the nitty gritty, but I want to zoom out real quick. 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.480 I want to hear you wrote a book called Teach 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.840 and Retire Rich, which sounds like an oxymoron. Most teachers 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.400 aren't like, oh, what's the greatest path to wealth. Let 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.680 me go into K through twelve education. But like you know, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:25.960 and you mentioned the pension. A lot of teachers across 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:27.440 the country they get summers off. They might get a 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.880 good pension, but yeah, talk to me about the smaller paycheck. 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.800 Can teachers retire comfortably with the right know how and 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.120 the right follow through? Why do you believe that teachers 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:40.200 can retire wealthy. 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.640 Yeah, we need to start with the definition of rich. 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.600 Now if you're talking about having like an island house 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.480 and fifteen cars. No, When I think about teaching, I 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:54.920 think of the intrinsic rewards. While it is an unbelievably exhausting, 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.920 difficult job that has only got harder, I believe the 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.960 job today is almost twice as hard as it is 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.600 that when I was teaching. There is you are the 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.600 target on so many fronts. You've got email. It is 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:09.680 a very difficult job. I could only do it for 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.840 twelve years. But I've already talked about it. We've touched 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.440 on it. You have a pension. Not many professions provide 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:20.960 a pension anymore, and you have not one but two 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.560 to find contribution plans similar to the four to oh 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.800 one K two four to one K like retirement plans 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:30.400 the four oh three B and the four to fifty 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.560 seven B. And again, I think teacher salaries should be 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.440 much higher, there is no doubt about that. But if 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.760 you can be diligent with starting a four oh three 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.360 B early in your career, assuming you've got good choices, 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.280 and that's not always the case, and that's what our 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.320 mission is with you four oh three B. Wise, we're 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.880 now a nonprofit dot org and we'll probably get into that. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.800 But you have your pension, you have your four oh 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.480 three B. You can also do a four to fifty 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.320 seven B. But my message to any educator listening is, 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:06.280 especially young ones, start with the wroth Ira. The reason 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.879 is you get to have a low cost company like 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.560 a Vanguard, a Fidelity. These are the companies we want 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.600 teachers to have in their four oh three B and 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.879 four fifty seven B, and often they don't and they 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:19.720 have to fight to get those at it. And again 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.520 that's what our website's about. But I would say anyone 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.560 listening at a minimum have a roth Ira to start then. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:28.920 So even even just a roth Ira at a low 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.080 cost provider that you have maxed out over a working 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.359 lifetime in combo with the pensions, that in and of 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.960 itself can be set you up for a significantly NXE retirement. 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:40.240 Yeah. 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.040 Well, not to mention too, just the ability to contribute 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:44.520 both to a four to three B and a four 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.840 to fifty seven maxing both of those out having separate, 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:50.880 separate contribution limits. But it's interesting too. I guess Dan, 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:52.480 like you're you're talking. I feel like we can have 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.480 a whole conversation about how teaching has become harder. I 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.159 feel like we could have a whole discussion about like 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.119 social media and parents maybe seeming like that they're on 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.920 your side, but advocating for their students, for the kids, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.960 it's yeah, incredibly difficult. And because of that, it seems 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.480 like most teachers, they don't stick with a profession, yes, right, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:11.440 like like much less. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:12.600 With a specific school district. 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.719 How should the different stats out there about teachers leaving 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.119 the profession impact, you know, how it is that they 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.600 approach their investments. Should it be more of a let's 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.120 focus on an individual, my individual contributions and being able 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.920 to have my retirement essentially migrate with me, no matter 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.679 what industry I'm in, no matter what job I should have. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.440 Well, you've just touched on an issue that's gotten even 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.800 more challenging in the wake of COVID, and that is 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.119 teacher attrition. And when I was a teacher, you know, 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.000 five the five year mark was the big one many 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:44.840 I think it was forty percent. I think was the 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.800 statistic I recall from my time teaching that people left 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.280 the profession, and I would guess it's even a little 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.760 bit higher now. So again I'm not trying to get 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.880 people out of the classroom. I always say that when 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.160 we talk on this topic. But if you're a first 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:04.240 year teacher, you know have that roth IRA for sure. 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.960 Because it's so flexible. It's not tied to your employer, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.679 so if you leave your employer, you don't have to 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.159 do anything with it. You can keep doing that. But 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.280 let's say you start teaching, you think you're going to 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.720 do it for a while or not even sure. I 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.320 would say do a four to fifty seven B first. 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.000 And the reason is it has this huge advantage over 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.920 to the four oh three B. One. There's a little 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.320 bit more fiduciary protection than afforded in a four to 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.879 oh three B see the four oh three B. The 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.440 reason it's so awful is it's not subject to ARISSA, 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.640 the Federal Employee Retirement Income Security Act. That the four 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.800 to oh win K is. The four to win K 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.679 employer who offered the terrible products that a K twelve 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:52.040 employer does would be sued. But because the K twelve 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.359 four to oh three B governmental four oh three b's 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.400 fall outside of Arisa, they are awful. Forty seven b's 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.600 have two advantages. There's a little bit more fiduciar requirement. 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.120 It's usually at the state level. But the big one 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.600 is when you separate service, when you leave your employer, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.000 if you have a four fifty seven B, you will 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.440 and you leave so you're no longer employed. You can 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.320 take that four fifty seven B money and you can 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.160 access it penalty free. You'll still owe taxes on it, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.080 but you will not be penalized. With the four h 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.440 three B. You have to wait until your age fifty 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.840 five to do that. So if you're one of these 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:29.959 fire people and you think you might want to retire 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:34.919 at fifty forty five, and you're an educator, maximize the 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.399 four fifty seven B. If you're one of these people, 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.399 aren't sure you're going to stay in the profession, and 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.600 you already maximize your wrath, do the four fifty seven 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.040 B again, assuming you've got a decent vendor. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:46.040 Yeah. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.639 Do you think that too many teachers avoid investing in 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.960