WEBVTT - Breaking the Binary w/Addison Rose Vincent + Nicolette Mason 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.840 I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing the Dominant Stories created 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.920 by Shawn Land Audio in partnership with the self Stam Project. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:12.360 Mony Ship isn't something that you just do one time. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.880 It's a it's a philosophy as a mindset, and the 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.320 first thing that I encourage people to do in order 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:22.280 to challenge their current mindset is to examine their own trauma. 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.320 Think more about before you're trying to support other communities, 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:32.240 what can you do for yourself first? Hey, I'm Jess 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.800 Wiener and this is Dominant Stories, the podcast that helps 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.120 us reclaim and rewrite the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:44.880 about our bodies, our beauty, our creativity, and our identities. 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.680 Today's conversation is about the concept and the idea of 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:58.960 breaking the binary. Binary is, you know something we often 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.440 think of being like one thing or the other, so 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:05.080 we say black and white, thin and fat, male and female, 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:09.360 good or bad. Breaking the binary is about challenging those 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:14.200 limiting views, especially when it comes to body size, gender identity, 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:19.480 and what we consider beautiful. Take as an example, you know, 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:25.520 historically we have thought about representation in fashion and beauty industries. 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:27.960 If you think about the people we often see in 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.640 those worlds, we often see thin cis gendered white women, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.520 able bodies. So my hope is that through the conversations 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:38.560 that I'm going to have today, we can challenge our 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.559 own dominant stories that might have come up around our 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.839 beauty and our identity and our body image and our 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.000 gender in order to help us really fully see ourselves 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.560 and see others. And so I've got two incredible leading 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.880 edge voices to have this conversation with today. My first 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.800 guest is going to be Addison rose Vincent. And Addison 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.320 is an decatur and lgbt Q plus advocate, speaker, a 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.720 community organizer. They are a force of nature and since 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:10.880 coming out as trans and non binary in they've been 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.760 dedicated to creating systemic change across the country. Their handle 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.960 online and the name of their business is literally Break 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.840 the Binary. And then I'm going to be joined by 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.160 my dear friend and possibility model, which you're gonna hear 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.799 about Nicolette Mason, who is a brand strategist and a 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.360 creative consultant and a fashion writer and you've read her 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.320 work or probably seen her work, and Reclaire and Glamour 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:39.840 and Dean Vogue and Refinery she spent the last twelve 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.560 years working primarily in the fashion and beauty space and 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.480 really helping to move the needle around size inclusivity and 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:51.040 the inclusivity of our l g B, t Q plus audiences. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.040 Each of these voices for me, they really do show 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.639 you a way to be loving, kind, compassionate to yourself 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.440 while challenging some of our rigid thinking about what is 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.160 beautiful and there for what is worthy. So I cannot 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.280 wait for you to hear this conversation, and as always, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.320 if you like the show, please let me know by 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:15.720 subscribing or writing a review wherever you're listing. All right, 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:29.320 let's dig in. I was so excited to have this 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:33.679 conversation with you because a big part of the episode 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.080 topic was about breaking the binary of beauty. And even 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.120 that term breaking the binary might be new for some 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.040 people listening, but it is literally your social handful, and 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.360 I know something you're equally as passionate about. So let's 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:47.400 just start there so we can all level set. What 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.200 do you mean when we say the term breaking the binary? Yeah, well, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.160 just thank you for having me first. I appreciate this opportunity. 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.960 Break the binary to me is a philosophy right, it's 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.320 a mindset. It's beyond just in one thing. It's something 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.800 that you do every single day. To me, the binary 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.560 is referring to the gender binary of course, of man 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.200 and woman or male and female. But there's lots of 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.360 binaries that we see all throughout our lives too. We 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.400 see things with politics of Republican and democrat, we see 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.279 things of right and wrong, good and evil. Right, there's 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.760 lots of binaries in our lives. And when we can 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.000 break that and see beyond that binary, things in between 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:27.680 and outside of those binaries, we allow ourselves to really 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.960 explore more of who we are. So when it comes 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.240 to gender, when I can say break the binary, I 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.240 don't mean to say that being a man or being 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.280 a woman is wrong, not that entirely. What I'm saying 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.560 that is that there's more to being a man or 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.720 a woman. Yes. And the reason why I am so 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.240 devoted to exploring this term is when it comes to 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.880 dominant stories, right, the stories that we tell ourselves about 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.360 who we are, and where we get those stories is 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:56.320 usually in culture, media, people around us, and binary thinking 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:00.240 that rigid thinking that there are only two ways to be. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.679 As an example, right, for me, we all get trapped 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:08.480 then in narrow thinking about ourselves, about others, about the 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.240 world out there. And so I'm curious, like why you 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.440 think it is important for folks to really all contribute 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.520 to breaking the binary. Yeah, I think that everyone, if 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.560 your trans or non binary or cis gender, we're all 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:24.960 impacted by this binary. I think about the ways too 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:29.240 that even my mom my sister has been limited to 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:32.200 this binary of what a woman is supposed to be, right, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.200 being feminine, looking a certain way, acting a certain way, 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.840 having to pursue certain types of careers too. These binaries 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.080 are toxic. And again not to say that being a 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.640 man or woman is wrong, or being feminine or masculine 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.000 is wrong, but it's just that we have created these 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.240 stories that you're saying, these dominant stories of what a 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:50.840 man or woman should be, so we need to break 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.479 those down. I know there's so much more to gender, 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.120 and especially when we think about beauty. I think beauty 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.360 has often been or the ideal of beauty I should say, 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:01.760 has been relict gated to a certain look. But you 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.600 said something. I printed this out because I didn't want 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.839 to misquote it. But it's one of the core values 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:07.480 that you list on your website, and I love it 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:08.880 for a lot of reasons, but I want to read 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.200 it out loud for everybody, which says humility with understanding 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.880 that we are as people always growing and learning, we 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.680 are open minded and compassionate. I love that because listeners 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:21.920 will will know at the end of these shows, I 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.839 have a mantra that is always learning, always growing, because 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.280 for me, that was a self compassionate voice that I 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.240 needed to add into my life to remind myself. I 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.240 will not get this perfectly. You and I are going 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.520 to go into this conversation right now. I may slip 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.600 up on pronouns, I may not, you know, say something correctly. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.880 And part of that is having the compassion to know 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.840 that it's not about being right, it's about getting it right, 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.240 and it's about kind of like being on the journey. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.440 Talk to me more about that mindset. Because we have 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.160 these conversations about breaking the binary. People freak out. It's uncomfortable, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.600 it's scary, it's unfamiliar, but so are a lot of things, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.960 you know. I think it's terrifying because I think that's 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.480 sometimes people have a hard time really examining themselves and 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.479 realizing too. And I'm gonna be frank to just how 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.560 hurt we've all been by this binary way. And when 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.160 we look at where the binary was first constructed, it 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:19.840 was through Eurocentric colonization. You know, when I talk about transphobia, 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.600 when we talk about sexism too, and this gender binary 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.680 to these are all have been rooted in anti blackness, 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.040 have been rooted in colonization, and have been rooted in 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.760 this idea that being white and being a certain way 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.360 is supposed to be how it's supposed to look. Cultures 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.840 around the world, even before colonization, have always embraced people 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.880 beyond this gender binary too. You know here in Turtle Island, 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.040 you know, Native American folks too would refer to folks 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.120 beyond that gender binary is to spirit. So today even 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.120 in Hawaii to the term mahoo. So you know, trans 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.520 a non binary people have always been around. So when 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:57.840 we talk about the gender binary, it's not something that's 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.760 necessarily always been around. It's mean that was taught and 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:05.000 forced through violence and genocide. We have to break these 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.000 all down and realize what we've been taught is sometimes wrong. 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:11.720 Who we've been taught to be, and who we've been 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.680 assigned even at birth as that's all maybe not who 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.200 we actually are. And as you were saying with that humility, 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:24.880 my mantra is about always unlearning and relearning that I'm 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.920 constantly having to unlearn my own gender binary that I've 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:30.280 been taught. Even as a trans and non binary person, 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.679 I still slip up people's pronouns. I still make assumptions 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.520 about someone's identity when I first see them, you know, 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.640 slipping up. And I think that perfectionism is also a 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.400 binary thinking, a binary thinking, Yep, you're right or you're wrong. 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.040 If we don't do it perfectly, then we must be wrong. 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.040 And I love the work of Bernie Brown to talking 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:52.079 about how oftentimes this goes back to shame not guilt, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.439 where we think that I've done something wrong, it's shame 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.800 what I am wrong exactly. I want to back up 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.640 for a second about the colonization, because I don't know 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.640 if people quite connect those two issues around sort of 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.440 the Eurocentric dominance that has happened in our culture, especially 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.679 in and around beauty. This is where we have a 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:17.439 tremendous emphasis on light skin, small waist, long hair, straight hair, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.240 and so you know, so many I've worked with girls 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.720 for over twenty five years, right, And the number one 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.920 thing I will hear, especially from bipod girls, is this 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.720 desire oftentimes to emulate a Eurocentric beauty standard. They don't 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.640 understand where that's come from. Yeah, I mean when we 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.520 think about even just when colonization was happening, right, they 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:39.880 were enforcing religion, enforcing certain beliefs to and you know, 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.480 when we look at the history, especially if two spirit 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.400 folks and you know Mahu folks too in Hawaii, we 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:49.559 see that they've been completely erased and the representation of 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.719 looking and being beyond the binary and being embraced and 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.200 celebrated and seen as beautiful have been erased through colonization. 0:09:57.840 --> 0:09:59.800 So I think that it's really revolutionary when we're seeing 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.719 indigenous and POC women embracing their features, embracing you know, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.880 their beauty. But I see this with even within the 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.160 trans and non binary community, to this striving for a 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.560 certain type of beauty, that certain type of perfection, right, 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.440 and feel like an imposter if you don't fit that too, 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:19.760 and feeling like I must not look like a woman, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.400 I must not look like a man, I must not 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.160 be who I'm supposed to be if I don't look 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.080 like that perfect white image. And I even think too 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.079 about recently, I had my facial feminization surgery, which I'm 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.480 super happy with my results. And a big thing that 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.480 actually came up in a lot of my conversations with 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.839 other trans people, especially trans women and trans feminine people, 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.640 was around noses. And it became this whole thing about 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.000 when we're pursuing these feminizing surgeries, why is it that 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:51.240 most surgeons are pushing or encouraging their patients to have 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.000 a very European type shaped nose. It's very interesting to 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.400 think about, right, what does feminine look like? Why is 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.280 that associated with European church? Why can't one be feminine, 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.480 be beautiful and have different types of futures? Yeah, can 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.520 you talk a little bit about your FFS surgery and 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.079 kind of what that entails? And I was, you know, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.760 when I was reading about your process. In doing that, 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.040 I also was thinking about my trans non binary friends 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:21.760 who have had massive obstacles in getting surgeries, gender affirming surgeries, 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:23.800 or any of the surgeries that they're seeking, oftentimes because 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.400 there's such bias in the medical community. And then once 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.000 you get in you're talking about now sort of a 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.800 bias around what does femininity look like. But I can 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.719 only imagine how you being you get to navigate that 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.559 for your for yourself. Was it scary at all? Was 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.400 it terrifying? Oh? My goodness, Like, I mean, you're having 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:41.520 a huge amount of surgery on your face, right, and 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.280 I think that you know, for me, I'm planning on 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.760 having bottom surgery to for my genitalis and for that too, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.040 that's leading into January. I'm terrified. I mean, it's scary 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:55.000 because these surgeries are new, they haven't been perfected yet, right. 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.480 But also you're putting your body in someone else's hands 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.080 and that's going to be what your body is gonna 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.240 look like for the rest of your life. So it's scary, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.719 but it's also exciting. Yes, it's exciting to take the 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.959 reins and say I want to have a body that 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.520 aligns with who I am. I mean to take those steps. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:14.800 But you're absolutely right. The health care industry right now 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.959 is not necessarily trans an on binary friendly, and for 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.679 a lot of folks it's hard to access those surgeries, 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:23.400 especially a lot of states too. We have to pay 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.319 out of pocket, like hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.240 for all different types of surgeries and procedures that make 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.679 you who you are. Let's talk about who gets to 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.240 gate keep femininity? Right? Who gets to be feminine? And 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.760 what does that even mean? And since gender is a construct, 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.240 where is femininity and gender? You know, connect? So maybe 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:43.959 I thought let's pause there for a second, because I 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:45.840 know we might be throwing around terms of people listening, 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.000 they're like either taking notes or wondering what's going on. 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.160 Let's talk about and I'm curious what you feel about 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.480 that phrase of gender being a construct? Can we break 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.720 that down a little bit for folks to understand. Yeah, 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.360 gender being a construct when it comes to gender identity, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.679 and we really break down what does gender mean? I 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:02.720 think a lot of folks have a hard time explaining 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:05.960 what gender is, right because we think about our expression, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.000 maybe the way that we dress and we look. Maybe 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.240 we think about our roles in our society and our 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.920 homes or families. Maybe we think about too the way 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.320 that we walk and we talk. Right, does that all 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.280 make up one's gender identity? Sure? Those can all be 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.839 parts of it, but it's different to each person and 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.640 in different cultures to gender looks and feels differently as well. 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.880 We've been told maybe what a woman or a man 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.640 are supposed to be and these are all assigned to 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.199 us before we're even born. And that's so wild to 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.719 me to to think about too, that based on the 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.240 flesh between our legs, as a developing child in the womb, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.840 were now given all his expectations about the colors those 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.840 need to like, the toys were gonna play with, yet, 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.559 the interests, our hobbies, what our careers are going to 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.959 look like, who we're going to marry, we're going to 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.559 marry if we get married, right, exactly, all these things 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.600 are put on us even before we're born. So once 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.480 gender identity is in a way a construct, we have 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.800 to stop and think about, Okay, are all of those 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.400 things reasonable to expect of a person? Are all those 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.319 things going to align with who we truly are? And 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.439 we find that really it's not always the case, and 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.760 that is Okay. How do your conversations go when you're 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:23.080 inside more corporate structures having this kind of conversation because 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.720 you know, I know you now work as a corporate consultant, 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.040 You're working with all kinds of organizations. And when I 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:30.880 get into the psychology of it, when I work and 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:33.600 coach all kinds of different businesses. I mean, I really 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.840 I understand the resistance to the change, and I think 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.000 this does go back to the britt A philosophy. I 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.840 do think people feel quite ashamed. I'm curious how it 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.040 goes for you as you're having these conversations, like what 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.360 are the themes that you're picking up on that are 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.000 really hard for people to shake? Like what is it 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.680 that you see that is like a big obstacle for 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:56.080 better understanding? You know, you just use this term resistance, 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.200 and I think that that is absolutely on point. And 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.240 when I talk about trauma informed care with people too, 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.480 I get people to think about shifting our mindsets from 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.400 what is wrong with you to what happened to you. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.520 So when you're when you're talking about resistant, when that 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.920 person is resistant, I take them as being distrustful or mistrustful, 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.400 meaning that maybe in their past, maybe they felt that 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.000 things have been taken from them. And so remember earlier 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.320 talking about gate keeping like womanhood or gate keeping femininity too. 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.240 I get a lot of women in corporate settings who 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.320 will be incredibly resistant to be talking about trans and 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.440 on binary identities. They then talking about this type of 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.520 femininity that I'm expressing today because to them. They've had 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.280 to gate keep that they've had to protect their women 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.800 had because of a world of sexism. Right, these assist 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.080 gender women. I do think women buying large in culture, 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.840 especially in this culture in North America, have been so 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.200 relegated to a narrow definition and going outside of the 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.040 bounds was dangerous and still is dangerous. And so when 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.440 trans people, trans women come along, FEMI and people like 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.120 myself come along, expressing ourselves in a different way and 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:08.520 expecting respect, expecting dignity, expecting compassion, it tugs at them 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.040 a bit too because of their own trauma, because of 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.320 their own trauma navigating a sexist world. Right, So going 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.920 into settings, I have to tell people, first of all, 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.360 you're not alone, and on learning and relearning, and too, 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:24.440 this is a safe space too. And three, your experiences 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.280 are still valid and we can hold both my experience 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.000 and your experience together. I actually also would venture to 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.440 say there's probably some unexamined jealousy or maybe sort of 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.280 a longing even exactly if you haven't examined your own hurt, 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.400 your own pain, the ways that you've been pushed to 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.040 that binary, the ways that you have been told you 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.760 can't be certain things too. I think about, you know, 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.320 me as a child, right growing up, I would wear 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.280 dresses and I would express myself as Dorothy from Wizard 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.680 of Oz, right. But I was told very early on 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.600 by my parents and by my communities too that that 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.680 was wrong. Right. And I think it too about my 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:01.560 sister or who used to be like a little tomboy 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.920 and stuff too that was pushed out of her. And 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.120 so going into those corporate settings, for me, I'm invited 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.679 by organizations who want to do the work right, they 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.159 have those good intentions. I also feel very grateful to 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.639 be doing this work in large systems like corporations and 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.159 you know, multinational institutions, because I think back to the 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.679 generations who have worked within those walls, who never had 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.560 a chance to have this conversation, yes, and who would 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.720 have absolutely had their lives changed. Should you walk in 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:32.080 and give a training? Hey, where are you going? There's 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.399 so much more of this juicy convo coming right up. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.760 We're back. You're ready to conquer those dominant stories? All right? 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:59.920 Here we go. One of the conversations that I've been 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.080 getting more educational and certainly have been exploring with friends 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.640 and fellow allies and others have been. When we talk 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.640 about non binary, there also isn't one way to express 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:11.920 being non binary. And I think sometimes when we say 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.359 non binary, people think androgynous. I know I did in 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.879 the early stages, like you don't think. And I wanted 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.600 to know what it has felt like for you to 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.600 grow out your beard, and I want to know what 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.120 you're like that journey for you. Had you always been 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.960 growing out the facial hair, Is this like a new piece? 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.159 One of the reactions, how do you navigate? Yeah, Well, 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:33.879 when we met about four or five years ago, I 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.160 didn't have a beard, and at that time I also 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.399 hadn't started hormones either, too, okay, And so for me, 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.359 you know, since twentyeen, I started my hormone journey, started 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.320 developing breast, developing more hip growth, And it was in 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.600 twenty nineteen that I was just fed up with shaving. 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.840 I was tired of it, and I was just done right, 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:55.879 you know. And there was a point to where I 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.959 looked in the mirror and I would think like, Hmmm, 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.359 what is my femininity mean to me? And there had 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.080 always been this voice in the back of my head 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.639 that said, just grow out your beard, Just grow it out. 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:07.560 You never gave yourself a chance to do it, ever, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:12.000 go for it. I growed out and I loved how 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.240 I looked, and I had to stop and ask myself, 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.080 what does this mean to be someone with breasts, with hibs, 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:22.159 with long hair, wearing makeup, and now a beard. And 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.240 I've come to the realization that my my beard is 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.879 still feminine, my femininity, this is what it is, and 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.280 that is beautiful and authentic and valid in itself. And 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.720 again part of going back to that de colonization mindset 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.399 to what does feminine look like? Why does it have 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.040 to be hairless? Why can't we have hair as part 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.760 of our feminity. So at the same time too, you know, 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.520 when I realized that I might see myself as a 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.280 feminine person going down the street, people will automatically try 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.960 to box me or label me as being androgynous, as 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.480 being masculine because I have a beard, because I have 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.080 a deeper voice, right and for me, I also recognized 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.120 to that being non binary can look however you want. 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.840 You know, have a beard, have no beard, have breasts, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.720 have no breast, whatever you want. And also that also 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.960 applies to manhood and womanhood too, that you don't have 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.639 to look a certain way for your gender to be 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.280 validated by others. As long as you can validate your 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.119 own gender, that's all that matters. You know. It struck 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.960 me when you were talking about Wizard of Oz Dorothy 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.320 because you use that a lot as a metaphors role model, 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.600 and I was thinking about the journey of Dorothy is 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.840 about coming home and herself, and the opportunity to go 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.800 home was always there, but she only was able to 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.480 come home after she realized she got out of the 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.480 black and white all the color. Yes, right, So again 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:47.440 realizing too that we think in a binary to that 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.080 black and white, thinking that you have to be masculine, feminine, man, woman, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.880 straight or gay the only option. But when we see 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.000 that there's so much more between those on those spectrums, 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.720 we can realize and finally come home to ourselves. Yeah, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.040 do you feel like you're at home in your body? 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.560 You know? Yes? And my home is constantly being renovated. 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.560 WHOA snaps to that. I agree, right, it's an ongoing 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.920 piece of art. It's like work in progress. I think 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.400 that when we think about being healed, it's a destination, 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.119 but it's a journey. It's a journey, not about setting 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.840 up ideas of what I should look like or what 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.760 I need to be forever, but just living in the moment. 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:28.879 And I think that's also part of that perfectionist mindset. 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.400 We set ourselves up for these big goals, these big 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:33.440 ideas of what we're supposed to be, and if we 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.440 fall short, then we get disappointed, that shame comes up again. 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.480 So we have to just live in the moment. You know, 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:42.439