Speaker 1: I'm Shonda Rhymes and we're bringing the Dominant Stories created
Speaker 1: by Shawn Land Audio in partnership with the self Stam Project.
Speaker 1: Mony Ship isn't something that you just do one time.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a philosophy as a mindset, and the
Speaker 1: first thing that I encourage people to do in order
Speaker 1: to challenge their current mindset is to examine their own trauma.
Speaker 1: Think more about before you're trying to support other communities,
Speaker 1: what can you do for yourself first? Hey, I'm Jess
Speaker 1: Wiener and this is Dominant Stories, the podcast that helps
Speaker 1: us reclaim and rewrite the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves,
Speaker 1: about our bodies, our beauty, our creativity, and our identities.
Speaker 1: Today's conversation is about the concept and the idea of
Speaker 1: breaking the binary. Binary is, you know something we often
Speaker 1: think of being like one thing or the other, so
Speaker 1: we say black and white, thin and fat, male and female,
Speaker 1: good or bad. Breaking the binary is about challenging those
Speaker 1: limiting views, especially when it comes to body size, gender identity,
Speaker 1: and what we consider beautiful. Take as an example, you know,
Speaker 1: historically we have thought about representation in fashion and beauty industries.
Speaker 1: If you think about the people we often see in
Speaker 1: those worlds, we often see thin cis gendered white women,
Speaker 1: able bodies. So my hope is that through the conversations
Speaker 1: that I'm going to have today, we can challenge our
Speaker 1: own dominant stories that might have come up around our
Speaker 1: beauty and our identity and our body image and our
Speaker 1: gender in order to help us really fully see ourselves
Speaker 1: and see others. And so I've got two incredible leading
Speaker 1: edge voices to have this conversation with today. My first
Speaker 1: guest is going to be Addison rose Vincent. And Addison
Speaker 1: is an decatur and lgbt Q plus advocate, speaker, a
Speaker 1: community organizer. They are a force of nature and since
Speaker 1: coming out as trans and non binary in they've been
Speaker 1: dedicated to creating systemic change across the country. Their handle
Speaker 1: online and the name of their business is literally Break
Speaker 1: the Binary. And then I'm going to be joined by
Speaker 1: my dear friend and possibility model, which you're gonna hear
Speaker 1: about Nicolette Mason, who is a brand strategist and a
Speaker 1: creative consultant and a fashion writer and you've read her
Speaker 1: work or probably seen her work, and Reclaire and Glamour
Speaker 1: and Dean Vogue and Refinery she spent the last twelve
Speaker 1: years working primarily in the fashion and beauty space and
Speaker 1: really helping to move the needle around size inclusivity and
Speaker 1: the inclusivity of our l g B, t Q plus audiences.
Speaker 1: Each of these voices for me, they really do show
Speaker 1: you a way to be loving, kind, compassionate to yourself
Speaker 1: while challenging some of our rigid thinking about what is
Speaker 1: beautiful and there for what is worthy. So I cannot
Speaker 1: wait for you to hear this conversation, and as always,
Speaker 1: if you like the show, please let me know by
Speaker 1: subscribing or writing a review wherever you're listing. All right,
Speaker 1: let's dig in. I was so excited to have this
Speaker 1: conversation with you because a big part of the episode
Speaker 1: topic was about breaking the binary of beauty. And even
Speaker 1: that term breaking the binary might be new for some
Speaker 1: people listening, but it is literally your social handful, and
Speaker 1: I know something you're equally as passionate about. So let's
Speaker 1: just start there so we can all level set. What
Speaker 1: do you mean when we say the term breaking the binary? Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: just thank you for having me first. I appreciate this opportunity.
Speaker 1: Break the binary to me is a philosophy right, it's
Speaker 1: a mindset. It's beyond just in one thing. It's something
Speaker 1: that you do every single day. To me, the binary
Speaker 1: is referring to the gender binary of course, of man
Speaker 1: and woman or male and female. But there's lots of
Speaker 1: binaries that we see all throughout our lives too. We
Speaker 1: see things with politics of Republican and democrat, we see
Speaker 1: things of right and wrong, good and evil. Right, there's
Speaker 1: lots of binaries in our lives. And when we can
Speaker 1: break that and see beyond that binary, things in between
Speaker 1: and outside of those binaries, we allow ourselves to really
Speaker 1: explore more of who we are. So when it comes
Speaker 1: to gender, when I can say break the binary, I
Speaker 1: don't mean to say that being a man or being
Speaker 1: a woman is wrong, not that entirely. What I'm saying
Speaker 1: that is that there's more to being a man or
Speaker 1: a woman. Yes. And the reason why I am so
Speaker 1: devoted to exploring this term is when it comes to
Speaker 1: dominant stories, right, the stories that we tell ourselves about
Speaker 1: who we are, and where we get those stories is
Speaker 1: usually in culture, media, people around us, and binary thinking
Speaker 1: that rigid thinking that there are only two ways to be.
Speaker 1: As an example, right, for me, we all get trapped
Speaker 1: then in narrow thinking about ourselves, about others, about the
Speaker 1: world out there. And so I'm curious, like why you
Speaker 1: think it is important for folks to really all contribute
Speaker 1: to breaking the binary. Yeah, I think that everyone, if
Speaker 1: your trans or non binary or cis gender, we're all
Speaker 1: impacted by this binary. I think about the ways too
Speaker 1: that even my mom my sister has been limited to
Speaker 1: this binary of what a woman is supposed to be, right,
Speaker 1: being feminine, looking a certain way, acting a certain way,
Speaker 1: having to pursue certain types of careers too. These binaries
Speaker 1: are toxic. And again not to say that being a
Speaker 1: man or woman is wrong, or being feminine or masculine
Speaker 1: is wrong, but it's just that we have created these
Speaker 1: stories that you're saying, these dominant stories of what a
Speaker 1: man or woman should be, so we need to break
Speaker 1: those down. I know there's so much more to gender,
Speaker 1: and especially when we think about beauty. I think beauty
Speaker 1: has often been or the ideal of beauty I should say,
Speaker 1: has been relict gated to a certain look. But you
Speaker 1: said something. I printed this out because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to misquote it. But it's one of the core values
Speaker 1: that you list on your website, and I love it
Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons, but I want to read
Speaker 1: it out loud for everybody, which says humility with understanding
Speaker 1: that we are as people always growing and learning, we
Speaker 1: are open minded and compassionate. I love that because listeners
Speaker 1: will will know at the end of these shows, I
Speaker 1: have a mantra that is always learning, always growing, because
Speaker 1: for me, that was a self compassionate voice that I
Speaker 1: needed to add into my life to remind myself. I
Speaker 1: will not get this perfectly. You and I are going
Speaker 1: to go into this conversation right now. I may slip
Speaker 1: up on pronouns, I may not, you know, say something correctly.
Speaker 1: And part of that is having the compassion to know
Speaker 1: that it's not about being right, it's about getting it right,
Speaker 1: and it's about kind of like being on the journey.
Speaker 1: Talk to me more about that mindset. Because we have
Speaker 1: these conversations about breaking the binary. People freak out. It's uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: it's scary, it's unfamiliar, but so are a lot of things,
Speaker 1: you know. I think it's terrifying because I think that's
Speaker 1: sometimes people have a hard time really examining themselves and
Speaker 1: realizing too. And I'm gonna be frank to just how
Speaker 1: hurt we've all been by this binary way. And when
Speaker 1: we look at where the binary was first constructed, it
Speaker 1: was through Eurocentric colonization. You know, when I talk about transphobia,
Speaker 1: when we talk about sexism too, and this gender binary
Speaker 1: to these are all have been rooted in anti blackness,
Speaker 1: have been rooted in colonization, and have been rooted in
Speaker 1: this idea that being white and being a certain way
Speaker 1: is supposed to be how it's supposed to look. Cultures
Speaker 1: around the world, even before colonization, have always embraced people
Speaker 1: beyond this gender binary too. You know here in Turtle Island,
Speaker 1: you know, Native American folks too would refer to folks
Speaker 1: beyond that gender binary is to spirit. So today even
Speaker 1: in Hawaii to the term mahoo. So you know, trans
Speaker 1: a non binary people have always been around. So when
Speaker 1: we talk about the gender binary, it's not something that's
Speaker 1: necessarily always been around. It's mean that was taught and
Speaker 1: forced through violence and genocide. We have to break these
Speaker 1: all down and realize what we've been taught is sometimes wrong.
Speaker 1: Who we've been taught to be, and who we've been
Speaker 1: assigned even at birth as that's all maybe not who
Speaker 1: we actually are. And as you were saying with that humility,
Speaker 1: my mantra is about always unlearning and relearning that I'm
Speaker 1: constantly having to unlearn my own gender binary that I've
Speaker 1: been taught. Even as a trans and non binary person,
Speaker 1: I still slip up people's pronouns. I still make assumptions
Speaker 1: about someone's identity when I first see them, you know,
Speaker 1: slipping up. And I think that perfectionism is also a
Speaker 1: binary thinking, a binary thinking, Yep, you're right or you're wrong.
Speaker 1: If we don't do it perfectly, then we must be wrong.
Speaker 1: And I love the work of Bernie Brown to talking
Speaker 1: about how oftentimes this goes back to shame not guilt,
Speaker 1: where we think that I've done something wrong, it's shame
Speaker 1: what I am wrong exactly. I want to back up
Speaker 1: for a second about the colonization, because I don't know
Speaker 1: if people quite connect those two issues around sort of
Speaker 1: the Eurocentric dominance that has happened in our culture, especially
Speaker 1: in and around beauty. This is where we have a
Speaker 1: tremendous emphasis on light skin, small waist, long hair, straight hair,
Speaker 1: and so you know, so many I've worked with girls
Speaker 1: for over twenty five years, right, And the number one
Speaker 1: thing I will hear, especially from bipod girls, is this
Speaker 1: desire oftentimes to emulate a Eurocentric beauty standard. They don't
Speaker 1: understand where that's come from. Yeah, I mean when we
Speaker 1: think about even just when colonization was happening, right, they
Speaker 1: were enforcing religion, enforcing certain beliefs to and you know,
Speaker 1: when we look at the history, especially if two spirit
Speaker 1: folks and you know Mahu folks too in Hawaii, we
Speaker 1: see that they've been completely erased and the representation of
Speaker 1: looking and being beyond the binary and being embraced and
Speaker 1: celebrated and seen as beautiful have been erased through colonization.
Speaker 1: So I think that it's really revolutionary when we're seeing
Speaker 1: indigenous and POC women embracing their features, embracing you know,
Speaker 1: their beauty. But I see this with even within the
Speaker 1: trans and non binary community, to this striving for a
Speaker 1: certain type of beauty, that certain type of perfection, right,
Speaker 1: and feel like an imposter if you don't fit that too,
Speaker 1: and feeling like I must not look like a woman,
Speaker 1: I must not look like a man, I must not
Speaker 1: be who I'm supposed to be if I don't look
Speaker 1: like that perfect white image. And I even think too
Speaker 1: about recently, I had my facial feminization surgery, which I'm
Speaker 1: super happy with my results. And a big thing that
Speaker 1: actually came up in a lot of my conversations with
Speaker 1: other trans people, especially trans women and trans feminine people,
Speaker 1: was around noses. And it became this whole thing about
Speaker 1: when we're pursuing these feminizing surgeries, why is it that
Speaker 1: most surgeons are pushing or encouraging their patients to have
Speaker 1: a very European type shaped nose. It's very interesting to
Speaker 1: think about, right, what does feminine look like? Why is
Speaker 1: that associated with European church? Why can't one be feminine,
Speaker 1: be beautiful and have different types of futures? Yeah, can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about your FFS surgery and
Speaker 1: kind of what that entails? And I was, you know,
Speaker 1: when I was reading about your process. In doing that,
Speaker 1: I also was thinking about my trans non binary friends
Speaker 1: who have had massive obstacles in getting surgeries, gender affirming surgeries,
Speaker 1: or any of the surgeries that they're seeking, oftentimes because
Speaker 1: there's such bias in the medical community. And then once
Speaker 1: you get in you're talking about now sort of a
Speaker 1: bias around what does femininity look like. But I can
Speaker 1: only imagine how you being you get to navigate that
Speaker 1: for your for yourself. Was it scary at all? Was
Speaker 1: it terrifying? Oh? My goodness, Like, I mean, you're having
Speaker 1: a huge amount of surgery on your face, right, and
Speaker 1: I think that you know, for me, I'm planning on
Speaker 1: having bottom surgery to for my genitalis and for that too,
Speaker 1: that's leading into January. I'm terrified. I mean, it's scary
Speaker 1: because these surgeries are new, they haven't been perfected yet, right.
Speaker 1: But also you're putting your body in someone else's hands
Speaker 1: and that's going to be what your body is gonna
Speaker 1: look like for the rest of your life. So it's scary,
Speaker 1: but it's also exciting. Yes, it's exciting to take the
Speaker 1: reins and say I want to have a body that
Speaker 1: aligns with who I am. I mean to take those steps.
Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right. The health care industry right now
Speaker 1: is not necessarily trans an on binary friendly, and for
Speaker 1: a lot of folks it's hard to access those surgeries,
Speaker 1: especially a lot of states too. We have to pay
Speaker 1: out of pocket, like hundreds of thousands of dollars sometimes
Speaker 1: for all different types of surgeries and procedures that make
Speaker 1: you who you are. Let's talk about who gets to
Speaker 1: gate keep femininity? Right? Who gets to be feminine? And
Speaker 1: what does that even mean? And since gender is a construct,
Speaker 1: where is femininity and gender? You know, connect? So maybe
Speaker 1: I thought let's pause there for a second, because I
Speaker 1: know we might be throwing around terms of people listening,
Speaker 1: they're like either taking notes or wondering what's going on.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about and I'm curious what you feel about
Speaker 1: that phrase of gender being a construct? Can we break
Speaker 1: that down a little bit for folks to understand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: gender being a construct when it comes to gender identity,
Speaker 1: and we really break down what does gender mean? I
Speaker 1: think a lot of folks have a hard time explaining
Speaker 1: what gender is, right because we think about our expression,
Speaker 1: maybe the way that we dress and we look. Maybe
Speaker 1: we think about our roles in our society and our
Speaker 1: homes or families. Maybe we think about too the way
Speaker 1: that we walk and we talk. Right, does that all
Speaker 1: make up one's gender identity? Sure? Those can all be
Speaker 1: parts of it, but it's different to each person and
Speaker 1: in different cultures to gender looks and feels differently as well.
Speaker 1: We've been told maybe what a woman or a man
Speaker 1: are supposed to be and these are all assigned to
Speaker 1: us before we're even born. And that's so wild to
Speaker 1: me to to think about too, that based on the
Speaker 1: flesh between our legs, as a developing child in the womb,
Speaker 1: were now given all his expectations about the colors those
Speaker 1: need to like, the toys were gonna play with, yet,
Speaker 1: the interests, our hobbies, what our careers are going to
Speaker 1: look like, who we're going to marry, we're going to
Speaker 1: marry if we get married, right, exactly, all these things
Speaker 1: are put on us even before we're born. So once
Speaker 1: gender identity is in a way a construct, we have
Speaker 1: to stop and think about, Okay, are all of those
Speaker 1: things reasonable to expect of a person? Are all those
Speaker 1: things going to align with who we truly are? And
Speaker 1: we find that really it's not always the case, and
Speaker 1: that is Okay. How do your conversations go when you're
Speaker 1: inside more corporate structures having this kind of conversation because
Speaker 1: you know, I know you now work as a corporate consultant,
Speaker 1: You're working with all kinds of organizations. And when I
Speaker 1: get into the psychology of it, when I work and
Speaker 1: coach all kinds of different businesses. I mean, I really
Speaker 1: I understand the resistance to the change, and I think
Speaker 1: this does go back to the britt A philosophy. I
Speaker 1: do think people feel quite ashamed. I'm curious how it
Speaker 1: goes for you as you're having these conversations, like what
Speaker 1: are the themes that you're picking up on that are
Speaker 1: really hard for people to shake? Like what is it
Speaker 1: that you see that is like a big obstacle for
Speaker 1: better understanding? You know, you just use this term resistance,
Speaker 1: and I think that that is absolutely on point. And
Speaker 1: when I talk about trauma informed care with people too,
Speaker 1: I get people to think about shifting our mindsets from
Speaker 1: what is wrong with you to what happened to you.
Speaker 1: So when you're when you're talking about resistant, when that
Speaker 1: person is resistant, I take them as being distrustful or mistrustful,
Speaker 1: meaning that maybe in their past, maybe they felt that
Speaker 1: things have been taken from them. And so remember earlier
Speaker 1: talking about gate keeping like womanhood or gate keeping femininity too.
Speaker 1: I get a lot of women in corporate settings who
Speaker 1: will be incredibly resistant to be talking about trans and
Speaker 1: on binary identities. They then talking about this type of
Speaker 1: femininity that I'm expressing today because to them. They've had
Speaker 1: to gate keep that they've had to protect their women
Speaker 1: had because of a world of sexism. Right, these assist
Speaker 1: gender women. I do think women buying large in culture,
Speaker 1: especially in this culture in North America, have been so
Speaker 1: relegated to a narrow definition and going outside of the
Speaker 1: bounds was dangerous and still is dangerous. And so when
Speaker 1: trans people, trans women come along, FEMI and people like
Speaker 1: myself come along, expressing ourselves in a different way and
Speaker 1: expecting respect, expecting dignity, expecting compassion, it tugs at them
Speaker 1: a bit too because of their own trauma, because of
Speaker 1: their own trauma navigating a sexist world. Right, So going
Speaker 1: into settings, I have to tell people, first of all,
Speaker 1: you're not alone, and on learning and relearning, and too,
Speaker 1: this is a safe space too. And three, your experiences
Speaker 1: are still valid and we can hold both my experience
Speaker 1: and your experience together. I actually also would venture to
Speaker 1: say there's probably some unexamined jealousy or maybe sort of
Speaker 1: a longing even exactly if you haven't examined your own hurt,
Speaker 1: your own pain, the ways that you've been pushed to
Speaker 1: that binary, the ways that you have been told you
Speaker 1: can't be certain things too. I think about, you know,
Speaker 1: me as a child, right growing up, I would wear
Speaker 1: dresses and I would express myself as Dorothy from Wizard
Speaker 1: of Oz, right. But I was told very early on
Speaker 1: by my parents and by my communities too that that
Speaker 1: was wrong. Right. And I think it too about my
Speaker 1: sister or who used to be like a little tomboy
Speaker 1: and stuff too that was pushed out of her. And
Speaker 1: so going into those corporate settings, for me, I'm invited
Speaker 1: by organizations who want to do the work right, they
Speaker 1: have those good intentions. I also feel very grateful to
Speaker 1: be doing this work in large systems like corporations and
Speaker 1: you know, multinational institutions, because I think back to the
Speaker 1: generations who have worked within those walls, who never had
Speaker 1: a chance to have this conversation, yes, and who would
Speaker 1: have absolutely had their lives changed. Should you walk in
Speaker 1: and give a training? Hey, where are you going? There's
Speaker 1: so much more of this juicy convo coming right up.
Speaker 1: We're back. You're ready to conquer those dominant stories? All right?
Speaker 1: Here we go. One of the conversations that I've been
Speaker 1: getting more educational and certainly have been exploring with friends
Speaker 1: and fellow allies and others have been. When we talk
Speaker 1: about non binary, there also isn't one way to express
Speaker 1: being non binary. And I think sometimes when we say
Speaker 1: non binary, people think androgynous. I know I did in
Speaker 1: the early stages, like you don't think. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to know what it has felt like for you to
Speaker 1: grow out your beard, and I want to know what
Speaker 1: you're like that journey for you. Had you always been
Speaker 1: growing out the facial hair, Is this like a new piece?
Speaker 1: One of the reactions, how do you navigate? Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: when we met about four or five years ago, I
Speaker 1: didn't have a beard, and at that time I also
Speaker 1: hadn't started hormones either, too, okay, And so for me,
Speaker 1: you know, since twentyeen, I started my hormone journey, started
Speaker 1: developing breast, developing more hip growth, And it was in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen that I was just fed up with shaving.
Speaker 1: I was tired of it, and I was just done right,
Speaker 1: you know. And there was a point to where I
Speaker 1: looked in the mirror and I would think like, Hmmm,
Speaker 1: what is my femininity mean to me? And there had
Speaker 1: always been this voice in the back of my head
Speaker 1: that said, just grow out your beard, Just grow it out.
Speaker 1: You never gave yourself a chance to do it, ever,
Speaker 1: go for it. I growed out and I loved how
Speaker 1: I looked, and I had to stop and ask myself,
Speaker 1: what does this mean to be someone with breasts, with hibs,
Speaker 1: with long hair, wearing makeup, and now a beard. And
Speaker 1: I've come to the realization that my my beard is
Speaker 1: still feminine, my femininity, this is what it is, and
Speaker 1: that is beautiful and authentic and valid in itself. And
Speaker 1: again part of going back to that de colonization mindset
Speaker 1: to what does feminine look like? Why does it have
Speaker 1: to be hairless? Why can't we have hair as part
Speaker 1: of our feminity. So at the same time too, you know,
Speaker 1: when I realized that I might see myself as a
Speaker 1: feminine person going down the street, people will automatically try
Speaker 1: to box me or label me as being androgynous, as
Speaker 1: being masculine because I have a beard, because I have
Speaker 1: a deeper voice, right and for me, I also recognized
Speaker 1: to that being non binary can look however you want.
Speaker 1: You know, have a beard, have no beard, have breasts,
Speaker 1: have no breast, whatever you want. And also that also
Speaker 1: applies to manhood and womanhood too, that you don't have
Speaker 1: to look a certain way for your gender to be
Speaker 1: validated by others. As long as you can validate your
Speaker 1: own gender, that's all that matters. You know. It struck
Speaker 1: me when you were talking about Wizard of Oz Dorothy
Speaker 1: because you use that a lot as a metaphors role model,
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about the journey of Dorothy is
Speaker 1: about coming home and herself, and the opportunity to go
Speaker 1: home was always there, but she only was able to
Speaker 1: come home after she realized she got out of the
Speaker 1: black and white all the color. Yes, right, So again
Speaker 1: realizing too that we think in a binary to that
Speaker 1: black and white, thinking that you have to be masculine, feminine, man, woman,
Speaker 1: straight or gay the only option. But when we see
Speaker 1: that there's so much more between those on those spectrums,
Speaker 1: we can realize and finally come home to ourselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you feel like you're at home in your body?
Speaker 1: You know? Yes? And my home is constantly being renovated.
Speaker 1: WHOA snaps to that. I agree, right, it's an ongoing
Speaker 1: piece of art. It's like work in progress. I think
Speaker 1: that when we think about being healed, it's a destination,
Speaker 1: but it's a journey. It's a journey, not about setting
Speaker 1: up ideas of what I should look like or what
Speaker 1: I need to be forever, but just living in the moment.
Speaker 1: And I think that's also part of that perfectionist mindset.
Speaker 1: We set ourselves up for these big goals, these big
Speaker 1: ideas of what we're supposed to be, and if we
Speaker 1: fall short, then we get disappointed, that shame comes up again.
Speaker 1: So we have to just live in the moment. You know,
Speaker 1: That's so much a part of my journey and how
Speaker 1: we even came to have this show about dominant stories
Speaker 1: was I, you know, had an awakening. I'm well into
Speaker 1: heading into the latter part of middle age in my life,
Speaker 1: and I looked at the very binary way that I
Speaker 1: was living my life as far as what I thought
Speaker 1: was good or bad, or right or wrong or perfect
Speaker 1: or not perfect, and it got me in to a
Speaker 1: pattern of hustling for my worth in a way that
Speaker 1: left me so sort of vacant at home around like
Speaker 1: what really mattered. And so I kind of have this
Speaker 1: platform now around building a good life, not a perfect one,
Speaker 1: good one what's good for you? Because I was very
Speaker 1: externally motivated. I think a lot of people are. I
Speaker 1: think that binary thinking gets validated by culture. So if
Speaker 1: I fit within these lines, then I get the pat
Speaker 1: on the head, the approval of the gold star, and
Speaker 1: I feel like I belong, but I want to belong
Speaker 1: to me. So the dominant stories piece came when I realized, like, wow,
Speaker 1: I'm led by dominant stories that I didn't write for myself,
Speaker 1: whether that is what I was supposed to look like,
Speaker 1: what I was supposed to earn or where or marry
Speaker 1: or be. And there's an incredible power in coming back
Speaker 1: home into your body, but there is also a lot
Speaker 1: of pain in is shoeing what has been deemed a
Speaker 1: cultural norm. Yes, well, I mean it's painful to feel
Speaker 1: like the only one right when looking at like you're
Speaker 1: saying those dominant stories in media, in film, in books,
Speaker 1: where there's very few stories beyond those binaries, right, it
Speaker 1: feels really isolating. It feels like you're the only one.
Speaker 1: And for me, you know, talking to about feeling like
Speaker 1: you don't belong and feeling you have to constantly prove
Speaker 1: yourself to that's such a big thing. I think that
Speaker 1: even within trans and non binary communities, but in communities
Speaker 1: in general, to feeling you have to prove yourself to
Speaker 1: be worthy of these spaces. And so I even think
Speaker 1: too about ways that when I navigate corporate settings or
Speaker 1: I navigate different places to even going out to restaurant,
Speaker 1: about how can I prove myself as worthy of respect
Speaker 1: as a trans and non binary person. And that's so exhausting.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking that, it's literally exhausting. It feels
Speaker 1: my numbing, you know. The other day too, I was,
Speaker 1: you know, being referred to another client from one that
Speaker 1: I worked with, and they see seen me on the email,
Speaker 1: and I saw some of the previous emails and they
Speaker 1: describe me as non threatening and it caught me off
Speaker 1: guard a bit too, because I had to sit with
Speaker 1: that and think about is that a good thing or
Speaker 1: a bad thing? Right? Is this something that I want
Speaker 1: to be labeled as to be in a place where
Speaker 1: I'm accommodating. Well, there maybe so much patience, so much
Speaker 1: compassion for people, so much room for them to grow,
Speaker 1: that maybe I end up coming off as non threatening
Speaker 1: And does that then cause them to really think about
Speaker 1: the messaging I'm trying to get across too, doesn't make
Speaker 1: any sense? Yeah, it makes tons of sense. On what
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here. My my face is scrunched because I'm thinking, God, dang,
Speaker 1: that is so much labor. Yes, actually to come into
Speaker 1: a room and hold space for somebody else's understanding of you,
Speaker 1: and then you're also packed with like the worthiness piece
Speaker 1: of like why don't they just see me as worthy?
Speaker 1: Why am I working so hard? Right? Feeling like exhausted
Speaker 1: having to prove yourself so often too? And when I
Speaker 1: look at cycles of imposter syndrome, you feel like you
Speaker 1: have to prove yourself and then you have to work
Speaker 1: harder than everybody else. And every time we keep achieving
Speaker 1: things and doing better and maybe going up to ladders
Speaker 1: within our organizations or businesses to or getting new opportunities,
Speaker 1: we keep thinking I only got it because I put
Speaker 1: in that extra effort, and it's not because of who
Speaker 1: I am or what I can bring to the table,
Speaker 1: but because I worked a little bit hard, And then
Speaker 1: that becomes a dominant story. I don't deserve this, right,
Speaker 1: I'm not worthy of this, And that's the unpacking that
Speaker 1: I want to do. Um. There was one concept that
Speaker 1: I was interested in going there with you on, which
Speaker 1: is about the idea of gender euphoria. Can we talk
Speaker 1: about that a little bit. Let's define that terminology that
Speaker 1: I want to know. When have you felt gender euphoria
Speaker 1: for sure? Well, I contrast that with gender dysphoria. Gender
Speaker 1: dysphoria is really this feeling that you're not necessarily stuck
Speaker 1: in the wrong body, but really that maybe how the
Speaker 1: world perceives you, or how you perceive yourself in the
Speaker 1: mirror that doesn't match with who you really are, that
Speaker 1: your body and your gender somehow, maybe there's that disconnect, right,
Speaker 1: So euphoria. Gender euphoria revers to those times when you
Speaker 1: are seen as who you are, that your gender is validated,
Speaker 1: maybe by others, but by yourself, even to you look
Speaker 1: in the mirror and you're like, I see me, that's me.
Speaker 1: You know. I find gender euphoria when I maybe I
Speaker 1: throw my makeup and I'm expressing my femininity in certain ways.
Speaker 1: Maybe when I'm looking in the mirror and I see
Speaker 1: how my body has changed with my hormones, I'm like, dang, okay,
Speaker 1: look good, right. Or maybe it's that when people just
Speaker 1: use my pronouns correctly. I'm so used to people miss
Speaker 1: gendering me that it's unfortunately when people do gender me
Speaker 1: corrects relief, it's a relief, there's that sense of euphoria.
Speaker 1: I wish it was just a normal thing, right, But
Speaker 1: that's what euphoria looks like to me. And it's so
Speaker 1: important for us to talk about trans joy, non binary
Speaker 1: joy within our community because so many of the dominant
Speaker 1: stories they're negative. Those dominant stories about you know, the
Speaker 1: news of trans women of color, especially black trans women
Speaker 1: the United States being more vulnerable to murder coming well,
Speaker 1: that's the only way we hear about as women usually
Speaker 1: exactly right. Although those issues are so so important, we
Speaker 1: also don't get enough stories told about the joy within
Speaker 1: our community. That's why I love stories like when Pose
Speaker 1: came out right, and even with Legendary on HBO too,
Speaker 1: I know that within the ballroom community folks are feeling
Speaker 1: like I don't know about Legendary. It feels cool and
Speaker 1: it's really cool to see trans and non binary people
Speaker 1: on the screen having their stories told and not at
Speaker 1: being necessarily just about their identity, but about this art
Speaker 1: and craft that they bring as well. So I think
Speaker 1: that having more stories is so so important. I was
Speaker 1: watching something that you I think there was something you
Speaker 1: put up on your social you were giving almost like
Speaker 1: a tutorial, but you were talking about the process that
Speaker 1: you experience going out publicly in the world, I think
Speaker 1: with your beard, and you were walking us through like
Speaker 1: you went to like a public place with friends where
Speaker 1: you felt comfortable, and like going to the grocery store.
Speaker 1: I just remember for me, I mean, look, I can
Speaker 1: often relate in similar ways in that I was walking
Speaker 1: with my husband one day, I think we or I
Speaker 1: don't wear and walk somewhere, and I was telling him
Speaker 1: about the phenomena that most women are folks might have
Speaker 1: in putting their keys in between their fingers if I'm
Speaker 1: walking in a parking garage at night, and I don't
Speaker 1: think twice about it. I just these are things that
Speaker 1: as a woman, I've been programmed to kind of be
Speaker 1: aware of who's around me, my circumstances, who's under the car,
Speaker 1: who's around the car, Like they're just this like hyper
Speaker 1: hyper intensity. And when I saw you, you were talking
Speaker 1: about how to create a safe place for you to
Speaker 1: be out in the world, like whether that was going
Speaker 1: to the grocery store, going to the movies, or going
Speaker 1: to a restaurant. It just really made me sit and
Speaker 1: think how much again, labor hoot emotion goes into that
Speaker 1: I'm cure. I'm just curious how if you remember that
Speaker 1: piece and how you felt about sharing that kind of information. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's exhausting. I mean you completely UNDERSTANDE talking about the
Speaker 1: keys and your knuckles right and having to check everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's so much anxiety going out looking the way that
Speaker 1: I do. Then it's not because as of me feeling wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm worried about how the people are going to react.
Speaker 1: And that's just a fact. I've been in places in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles traveling to where I'm expressing myself this way,
Speaker 1: and people take it upon themselves to harass me, say
Speaker 1: something to me, threaten me, and it's very scary. And
Speaker 1: for a while, I let those voices dominate, right, I
Speaker 1: let those stories control how I would navigate the world.
Speaker 1: And I think I've gotten to a place now where
Speaker 1: I've realized that life is just too goddamn short and
Speaker 1: I just need to just be me. And if people
Speaker 1: are going to take it upon themselves to express their
Speaker 1: own pain and project that onto me, fine, that's their
Speaker 1: own ship. That has nothing to do with me. It's
Speaker 1: all about them. And so I've had to work up
Speaker 1: and build up my own confidence and self esteem after
Speaker 1: all those experiences, to be who I am and to
Speaker 1: be proud going out into public and not even make
Speaker 1: it a big statement either, to just go to the grocery,
Speaker 1: live your life. We'll get your bananas, exactly exactly. It's
Speaker 1: just it's sad to have to do this, but I
Speaker 1: know that there's other people like me too, that are
Speaker 1: still struggling with feeling empowered to walk out into the
Speaker 1: world looking and expressing your femininity or masculinity or androgenous
Speaker 1: expression in the way that other people are uncomfortable with.
Speaker 1: Some of those steps for me have included just starting
Speaker 1: with small goals. We're talking about protectionism again. The goals, right,
Speaker 1: we're going to fail. So if we start with small
Speaker 1: things like just going out the door, get to get
Speaker 1: fresh air, walking around for a block, around with your pattern,
Speaker 1: something like that, starting small, building yourself up and knowing
Speaker 1: that if your safe space is your home or some
Speaker 1: other place, to start there and build your way out
Speaker 1: slowly but surely. And the other thing too, I recommend
Speaker 1: is going out with friends. I feel so much safer
Speaker 1: when I'm with my partner Ethan. I feel so much
Speaker 1: safer when I'm with maybe three or four friends. So
Speaker 1: finding community and finding community spaces is so awesome and
Speaker 1: going to safe places, like I go to certain bars,
Speaker 1: I go to certain restaurants because I know that the
Speaker 1: patrons there are also going to be trans and non
Speaker 1: binary or they're not going to give a ship right. Right.
Speaker 1: For such a long time, I was going on vacations
Speaker 1: shaving my beard. Even since growing my beard, I would
Speaker 1: shave my beard or pluck my beard. That would take
Speaker 1: four hours, by the way. I would do all that
Speaker 1: because I was so scared about going abroad how people
Speaker 1: would treat me. I've gotten to this place where I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm tired of that. I'm just going to be
Speaker 1: me going forward. What do you think for somebody listening
Speaker 1: who's like now, has gone on this journey with us
Speaker 1: in this conversation, who maybe is an ally and I
Speaker 1: would encourage them to become an accomplice, right, to actually
Speaker 1: put some skin in the game, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: what are some of your takeaways or advice? Maybe let's
Speaker 1: start with parents or mentors, folks that are working with
Speaker 1: young people. You know, when I do trainings and I
Speaker 1: go into organizations and people always ask me, what are
Speaker 1: the steps to becoming an ally. I sometimes give some
Speaker 1: general steps and things to do, but again, ally ship
Speaker 1: isn't something that you just do one time. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a philosophy, it's a my set to And the
Speaker 1: first thing that I encourage people to do in order
Speaker 1: to challenge their current mindset is to examine their own trauma,
Speaker 1: to examine what they've been taught growing up, and think
Speaker 1: more about before you're trying to support other communities, what
Speaker 1: can you do for yourself first? Because maybe there's a
Speaker 1: parent or a mentor a guardian out there too right
Speaker 1: now that's listening, and maybe they haven't ever thought about
Speaker 1: their own gender identity. You have permission to think more
Speaker 1: about yourself first, think more about your own journey, examine
Speaker 1: that process and challenge it to I talk a lot
Speaker 1: about in my trainings to intergenerational trauma and how parents
Speaker 1: and grandparents will be passing down all the things that
Speaker 1: they've been conditioned to the things that they experienced. So
Speaker 1: that's all being passed down and we have to learn
Speaker 1: to break the cycle first. There and your alley ship
Speaker 1: will come along right after. I agree, and I would
Speaker 1: add to the consistency matters. I think that that consists
Speaker 1: and see is what is so important that it's not
Speaker 1: a one and done. It's not a square on Instagram,
Speaker 1: it's not a national day. It's not a statement that
Speaker 1: your company puts out and that your company puts ours
Speaker 1: a lot of press release. It is just for me.
Speaker 1: It's a commitment to where humanity has been, where it
Speaker 1: needs to be, where it's you know, growing. And I
Speaker 1: feel like the biggest blessing I'll take away from being
Speaker 1: able to have this conversation with you is the permission
Speaker 1: to unlearn and relearn yes or there was a break
Speaker 1: that idea that there's a right story and a wrong story,
Speaker 1: that there's a hero and a villain, or complex human beings,
Speaker 1: and we deserve to have all parts of us seen invalidated.
Speaker 1: Amazing Addison. Where can people go to get involved in
Speaker 1: something you care about or help support your work? How
Speaker 1: can folks find you? I'm you know, I'm the former
Speaker 1: executive director of the non Binary Intersex Recognition Project and
Speaker 1: we were instrumental in passing X markers on state ideas
Speaker 1: and birth certificates in California. So oh, there's not just
Speaker 1: male and female as options, but you have X as
Speaker 1: a potential third option. To on your ideas, So I
Speaker 1: definitely recommend folks checking out that organization seeing how you
Speaker 1: can get involved in advocating for and supporting intersection non
Speaker 1: binary people across the country. And if you want to
Speaker 1: follow me and get more information about what I do
Speaker 1: and see more of my post and my work, you
Speaker 1: can always follow me on Instagram at Break the Binary.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on TikTok at break the Binary
Speaker 1: underscore um, and then you can also check out my
Speaker 1: website too so that if you want any training or
Speaker 1: additional services for your company, organization, or school, check out
Speaker 1: www dot Break the Binary LLC dot com. Amazing. You're
Speaker 1: the best. Thank you, Thank you, Jess, You're amazing. We've
Speaker 1: been talking with Addison about breaking the binary through the
Speaker 1: lens of gender and identity, and after this break, I'll
Speaker 1: be back speaking with Nicolette Mason on how she's breaking
Speaker 1: the binary of who we see front and center in
Speaker 1: the beauty and fashion industries. Don't go anywhere without further ado.
Speaker 1: We're back with fashion writer and consultant Nicolette Mason. Nicolette,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. When
Speaker 1: I was thinking about the idea around challenging binary thinking
Speaker 1: and the categorization that we've created a lot of industries,
Speaker 1: but especially within the beauty and fashion space. I knew
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about this. For you,
Speaker 1: why is breaking the binary behaviors in the fields of
Speaker 1: fashion and beauty so important for you? It's such a
Speaker 1: huge question. I think fashion and beauty really do set
Speaker 1: a standard. So much of the way we culturally form
Speaker 1: our opinions on everything. Everything visual really leads back to
Speaker 1: the fashion and beauty industries. We see that in television,
Speaker 1: we see that in film. We see that just culturally
Speaker 1: and the way people are treated and the way hierarchies
Speaker 1: are formed in society. We see that through even job
Speaker 1: place discrimination, and so it's it's not just about fashion
Speaker 1: and beauty, which I think can kind of be tucked
Speaker 1: away as this kind of superficial world. It permeates into
Speaker 1: every part of the fabric of our society and culture.
Speaker 1: Because our culture is so visual. This isn't just a
Speaker 1: natural pecking order. It's literally by design, and we have
Speaker 1: an opportunity people who work within these industries to change
Speaker 1: the design line of these systems to be more inclusive
Speaker 1: and to really reflect the beauty of the world around us.
Speaker 1: And by the way, both things can be true, right,
Speaker 1: we can benefit from these systems and be discriminated against.
Speaker 1: Absolutely in these systems. I heard something I think it
Speaker 1: might have been a clip, and I can't remember where
Speaker 1: I heard it of you talking about the early impact
Speaker 1: that fashion left for you as a per person, of
Speaker 1: what you thought you could wear, what you thought you
Speaker 1: were able to quote unquote get away with, and kind
Speaker 1: of how that helped to shape early identity for you. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think in terms of my queer identity, in terms
Speaker 1: of the body that I inhabit, I've always been larger
Speaker 1: plus size. Even as a child and adolescent, I was
Speaker 1: outsized of most clothing and fashion like I never really
Speaker 1: had my limited to moment or like shopping at Abercrombie
Speaker 1: as a teenager, and um, that's such a universal experience
Speaker 1: for so many people. It really did shape the way
Speaker 1: I saw myself and then also the way that I
Speaker 1: thought I had to present in order to be respected
Speaker 1: or taken seriously or be seen as desirable or when
Speaker 1: I entered the workforce, what made me a hirable candidate.
Speaker 1: And I mean that on its own is such a
Speaker 1: mind melt because we hear so often dressed for the
Speaker 1: job you want. How do you do that if that
Speaker 1: fashion is not accessible to you? How do you fake
Speaker 1: it till you make it? If none of those pieces
Speaker 1: of the wardrobe and the costume that is assumed of
Speaker 1: a person in a certain position is remotely available to you. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean I so relate to that, you know. To me,
Speaker 1: it's also about self expression. I think both vehicles right
Speaker 1: to express who we are fully, and when the materials
Speaker 1: aren't there to play in that space with fullness, you
Speaker 1: get the message loud and clear. At least I did
Speaker 1: that you don't matter much or you're not as important.
Speaker 1: And you talked about that hierarchy and that it's manufactured,
Speaker 1: but it is so impactful when you're a kid and
Speaker 1: you can't get in. Yeah. And not just for kids,
Speaker 1: I mean, of course, for kids who are so impassionable
Speaker 1: and so vulnerable to external messaging. But I think that
Speaker 1: people as a whole, especially women, people who are socialized
Speaker 1: as women, who are seen as women or as thems.
Speaker 1: Our value is assessed based on our appearances. That is
Speaker 1: a real piece of the way our our culture works.
Speaker 1: It's not a good thing in my opinion, but it
Speaker 1: is very much reality for many people. And so it's
Speaker 1: how does a grown adult build their own sense of
Speaker 1: self and sense of self confidence when externally they're getting
Speaker 1: messaging that they're not worthy, they're not desirable, they don't
Speaker 1: deserve to be in beautiful fashion or to be seen
Speaker 1: as beautiful. And I think that's one of the most
Speaker 1: powerful things about representation and having inclusive beauty and fashion campaigns.
Speaker 1: It's not going to fix everything, but it does have
Speaker 1: an impact on the way people see themselves and the
Speaker 1: way they see each other. And I find that so
Speaker 1: incredibly impactful in a way that I really don't think
Speaker 1: can never be discounted. I agree, but I want to
Speaker 1: make sure everybody listening to gets a chance to understand
Speaker 1: the hierarchy where we talk about that this binary way
Speaker 1: of thinking who deserves fashion, who doesn't, who's in who's out?
Speaker 1: That's been constructed, and can you talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about some of the reasoning behind that construction so that
Speaker 1: we're not abstractly talking about, you know, a system that
Speaker 1: we're not quite comprehending. But there's an historical purpose as
Speaker 1: to why this has existed. Yeah, definitely, there's historical context
Speaker 1: to it. The way the fashion industries have operated for
Speaker 1: the last couple hundred centuries have really been built on
Speaker 1: exclusivity and aspiration, and the way that has functioned is
Speaker 1: that you have a set of gatekeepers, um fashion media
Speaker 1: like Vogue and a Win Tour and so on, and
Speaker 1: also legacy fashion brands, so brands like Chanel, like Gucci,
Speaker 1: Liked or they have set the tone and the standard
Speaker 1: for the rest of the fashion industry for over a
Speaker 1: hundred years. Part of that thinking is that the more
Speaker 1: exclusive this upper echelon of capital f fashion is, the
Speaker 1: more people aspire to want to be part of that
Speaker 1: system and want to be part of that cast and
Speaker 1: want to bite into it, creating a system where everything
Speaker 1: else in the fashion industry, whether that's high street fashion,
Speaker 1: department stores, contemporary brands, are borrowing from the standards and
Speaker 1: trends that are set. There are some back and forth
Speaker 1: some times, like trends do come from streetwear often and
Speaker 1: make their way up to high fashion, so it's not
Speaker 1: strictly one or the other, but for the most part,
Speaker 1: for over a hundred years, that has been the way
Speaker 1: the standard has been set. Yeah, and you talk about
Speaker 1: the gatekeepers and I think that's very similar to a
Speaker 1: lot of industries. Right, What is it, in your opinion
Speaker 1: that is such a hard get for fashion to recognize
Speaker 1: that there are plus size large bodies who are beautiful
Speaker 1: and fashionable, who have money to spend, who you know,
Speaker 1: can rocket like anybody else. Why is this still such
Speaker 1: a conversation around is there an audience there? I put
Speaker 1: this product in store and it doesn't sell. It's just
Speaker 1: still is such a binary way of looking at our consumer.
Speaker 1: Over the last few years there's been a really big
Speaker 1: confrontation in the fashion industry and calls for accountability, really
Speaker 1: reckoning with the industry's racism, um and legacy of racism
Speaker 1: and fat phobia. Beyond that, it's honestly, it's not that
Speaker 1: they don't know there's value there, it's that they don't
Speaker 1: want to. They're choosing not to, and the excuses that
Speaker 1: they give, whether it's that the fabric costs more, let's
Speaker 1: just be very clear, that is a total BS can answer.
Speaker 1: But what phrasing like that does is put the onus
Speaker 1: and responsibility on the customer so that those brands don't
Speaker 1: have to be responsible. And it's saying, actually, it's it's
Speaker 1: your fault that your clothing requires so much more fabric,
Speaker 1: and that's bullshit. It's very dishonest way of getting around
Speaker 1: serving a customer base. Sixty eight percent of American women
Speaker 1: wear plus sizes, and that's a size squortine or higher.
Speaker 1: They're also the most disenfranchised from being able to participate
Speaker 1: in fashion. I believe the statistic is something like sevent
Speaker 1: of all product in the top twenty five retailers in
Speaker 1: America are available to plus size customers, even though they
Speaker 1: make up close to seventy of the population. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think about all of the all of the dominant stories
Speaker 1: that have happened in my life when I haven't been
Speaker 1: able to shop in the same store as my friends.
Speaker 1: There was not a store I could go to the
Speaker 1: Beverly Center that carried above a size fourteen. Do you
Speaker 1: have an entire shopping center in one of the largest
Speaker 1: cities in our country that you know didn't have any accessibility. Also,
Speaker 1: think about gender with beauty quite a bit, So you've
Speaker 1: worked kind of parallel. I think obviously you've worked a
Speaker 1: lot in fashion and continue to do so, and you're
Speaker 1: an incredible influencing voice and strategist in the beauty space
Speaker 1: as well, and how revolutionary it feels to see more
Speaker 1: non binary folks and men in cosmetic ads and the
Speaker 1: play with makeup there. Talk to me about that, that
Speaker 1: meeting in and around gender and kind of breaking the
Speaker 1: binary for that with beauty. Absolutely, yeah, I think beauty
Speaker 1: has been historically or not historically. Actually that's a that's
Speaker 1: a very interesting thing because cosmetics, when you look at
Speaker 1: history as a whole, we're not just for women at all.
Speaker 1: Quite the opposite, right is so yeah, historically that has
Speaker 1: not been the case, but as far as our lifetimes,
Speaker 1: beauty has been very much gendered as feminine, and over
Speaker 1: the lost decade that has definitely shifted a lot. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of like boys and beauty that's what
Speaker 1: they call themselves and I love it. And then of
Speaker 1: course making more room to center trans and non binary
Speaker 1: people and beauty has been really beautiful to see. However,
Speaker 1: not necessarily the prestige beauty brands. And that's where it
Speaker 1: comes back to what is the role of the gatekeepers
Speaker 1: in the fashion and beauty industries in changing some of
Speaker 1: these conversations. It is brands like Sephora, It's brands like
Speaker 1: Alta who have taken a really strong position. Brands like
Speaker 1: Nors have been really incredible in casting gender, nonconforming and
Speaker 1: non binary people, as well as a lot of the
Speaker 1: indie brands and makeup artist lead and founded brands. But
Speaker 1: the prestige brands, the capital F fashion brands that have
Speaker 1: huge beauty counters and presence in every department store in
Speaker 1: this country, they are a little later to the game,
Speaker 1: and I'm very, very curious to see what it will
Speaker 1: take for them to catch up to this conversation. I
Speaker 1: think the same way I think in these Capital F
Speaker 1: fashion brands and these big beauty brands, I think the
Speaker 1: lore of exclusivity still remains with so much I s
Speaker 1: embedded in that that, even consumer demand, even cultural change
Speaker 1: and attitudinal shifts. I want to believe that we're going
Speaker 1: to get there. I too, am going to be watching
Speaker 1: to see what finally breaks that open. Yeah. I focus
Speaker 1: a lot as a consultant. I know you do too,
Speaker 1: on intersectionally honoring people's lives. Right, we have so many
Speaker 1: different identifiers from race and age and gender, and I
Speaker 1: want to talk about where we're heading, but I want
Speaker 1: to kind of think about it from a personal lens
Speaker 1: with you. Can you talk about all of your identifiers
Speaker 1: and how you move as Nicolat Mason in the world.
Speaker 1: So God, I mean for me to go through mine
Speaker 1: my identifiers, I feel like I turned into like a
Speaker 1: little bit of a meme. Like I've been on panels
Speaker 1: before where they're like diversity panels and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: well you're you're the plus sized diversity. I'm like, am
Speaker 1: I is that? Is that like the only thing that
Speaker 1: I am embodying. Yeah, So I don't even know where
Speaker 1: to begin. There's so many isms that I have attached
Speaker 1: to me. I have an Iranian mom and an English father,
Speaker 1: so I am mixed ethnically. Um, I'm also Jewish, I'm
Speaker 1: a lesbian them identifying, and I am a millennial. And
Speaker 1: then something that I am working on recognizing as part
Speaker 1: of my identity is the disability piece. I have multiple
Speaker 1: invisible disabilities that are definitely shaped my awareness and understanding
Speaker 1: of the world, my experience of the world, and I'm
Speaker 1: working on making that part of um who I am
Speaker 1: and who I share with the world. Also, that's incredible.
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, Nikola is available for all
Speaker 1: your bookings of diversity panels for now. No, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's so beautiful is that this is part of cultural
Speaker 1: fluency for people right now in in breaking the binary
Speaker 1: means it's going to get uncomfortable for folks, right So,
Speaker 1: folks that are unfamiliar with concepts or language or terminology
Speaker 1: are going to be afraid to stumble. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that I have noticed in my work that
Speaker 1: is tripping people up a lot is our conversation around
Speaker 1: gender and pronouns. Do you feel like people have to
Speaker 1: get it or do you feel like people just have
Speaker 1: to learn how to respect it? Because I think there's
Speaker 1: two different lines of reasoning here, of trying to get
Speaker 1: everybody to understand gender is created versus this is how
Speaker 1: you respect another human being. Yeah, you don't have to
Speaker 1: understand it. I don't think you have to understand it.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone needs to understand things in order
Speaker 1: to respect them and also just respect a person's choice
Speaker 1: and desire. I think a really good example of this
Speaker 1: is my mom, who is in her sixties. English is
Speaker 1: not her first language. Does my mom necessarily have an
Speaker 1: incredible fluency on gender identity and queer issues. No, But
Speaker 1: I think she also knows that the people in my
Speaker 1: life are people that I really love and that my
Speaker 1: mom really loves. You know, she met them as people
Speaker 1: who presented as women or were socialized that way, and
Speaker 1: now they are using the then pronouns. She really makes
Speaker 1: an effort and does it. To me, that's all that matters.
Speaker 1: You don't have to understand gender identity. You don't have
Speaker 1: to understand a person's personal journey with gender, but you
Speaker 1: can call them by the name they want to be called,
Speaker 1: use the pronouns that they want to be used. If
Speaker 1: my mom can do it, we can do this, y'all. Um.
Speaker 1: I mentioned before kind of the content that you put
Speaker 1: out there in addition to your brand strategy work. It's
Speaker 1: very thoughtful. It's highly curated, I think, with message and intent,
Speaker 1: which I appreciate. What do you think that younger Nicolette
Speaker 1: would say to you now? Would she be surprised at
Speaker 1: the life that you're living now, the life that you've created. Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think that the younger version of me would be
Speaker 1: really really surprised that she could be fat and queer
Speaker 1: and chronically anxious and also really really happy and successful. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And every time I talk about this, I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm gonna cry, But like so much of my life
Speaker 1: is in service to my younger self. Same so much
Speaker 1: of my life, and I think part of why you
Speaker 1: and I and so many people are called to do
Speaker 1: this work is because we know that there are younger
Speaker 1: versions of us right now that are out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I also am getting emotional because I think if I
Speaker 1: at twelve, with my ethnically ambiguous giu fro and buck
Speaker 1: teeth and tan skin, that was not cool to be
Speaker 1: tanned back in the day. And if I think about
Speaker 1: if I would have been able to see in Nicolette
Speaker 1: Mason and Gabby greg if I would have been able
Speaker 1: to see somebody like Christian Ciriano making beautiful clothes for
Speaker 1: all bodies, Like I think about what my life would
Speaker 1: have been like, and I think just by being visible,
Speaker 1: we change so many people's lives. I think my whole
Speaker 1: you know motto is about helping people to feel seen, heard,
Speaker 1: and understood, and I do that in a number of
Speaker 1: different ways, but at the core of it, You're right,
Speaker 1: it's in service to the girl who looked at the
Speaker 1: world and didn't see it reflect back what she wanted,
Speaker 1: what she needed to feel at home. So I'm kind
Speaker 1: of a big piece of of of advice to to ask.
Speaker 1: But for those people who are listening to you who
Speaker 1: want to challenge and change and rewrite the dominant stories
Speaker 1: that they've had about their belonging, if they want to
Speaker 1: feel more connected to their beauty and their self expression,
Speaker 1: is there a piece of advice that you would give
Speaker 1: them that's a tried and true for you. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think the essence of it for me is to focus
Speaker 1: on everyone else and their story, their formula, their narrative,
Speaker 1: their path to success, and focus on what makes you you,
Speaker 1: what makes you unique different, What are the parts of
Speaker 1: you that can't be replicated by everyone else. The parts
Speaker 1: of me that felt different, that felt other were for
Speaker 1: a long time parts of myself that I minimized, and
Speaker 1: it wasn't until I really embraced them that my path
Speaker 1: became really clear and my purpose became really clear to me.
Speaker 1: I've been able to find a place where it's not
Speaker 1: just in service to the younger me, but also in
Speaker 1: service to everyone else who didn't feel seeing her recognized
Speaker 1: in fashion and beauty, which is incredible for parents, listening, teachers, mentors,
Speaker 1: folks that want to be a better ally or accomplice
Speaker 1: to the people, young people in their lives, especially when
Speaker 1: we're talking about gender identity, and you know, in folks
Speaker 1: who are breaking the binary in their in their own
Speaker 1: lives and may be surrounded by adults who don't fully
Speaker 1: get it. What advice would you share for adults to
Speaker 1: step in and step up? I think there are a
Speaker 1: lot of tangible actions people can take. One of the
Speaker 1: simplest actions I think people can take, as if they
Speaker 1: are on social media, to diversify the content that they're consuming.
Speaker 1: It makes such a difference to hear a plurality of
Speaker 1: voices and points of view and experiences, seek out people
Speaker 1: who are different than you, who are trans, who are
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming, who have disabilities, and who speak to their
Speaker 1: experiences on all of those in a really authentic way.
Speaker 1: It's so simple, but I think that in having a
Speaker 1: plurality and diversity of role models and voices that we
Speaker 1: are hearing and listening to, that it then makes a
Speaker 1: really big difference if a child comes to you and
Speaker 1: feels a certain way X, y Z, and you could say, hey,
Speaker 1: there's this person. I really believe in possibility models being
Speaker 1: a huge piece of the puzzle and how people see themselves.
Speaker 1: If there aren't possibility models. People don't know that they
Speaker 1: can be. I have never heard that term before, but
Speaker 1: can I can I use that. I love the idea
Speaker 1: of possibility models, like I think that's such a beautiful
Speaker 1: way to talk about options, to talk about inspiration without
Speaker 1: it feeling like you've got to be the one, one
Speaker 1: size fits all answer. I love possibility models. Yeah, sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to see something as possible to believe it.
Speaker 1: That's what possibility models mean to me. It's it's knowing
Speaker 1: that there can be someone who embodies X Y Z
Speaker 1: characteristic and they are killing it in life and they're
Speaker 1: thriving and they're happy, and that's really really important on
Speaker 1: a personal level, but also in the ways we see
Speaker 1: other people and what their potential can look like. I
Speaker 1: love it, Nicolette Mason, You're my possibility model, and I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful that we got to have this conversation and
Speaker 1: I look forward to fighting the good fight with you
Speaker 1: who Thank you so much for having me be part
Speaker 1: of this. Oh my goodness, these are two individuals that
Speaker 1: I could and would love to sit and talk to
Speaker 1: you for so much longer. I hope you enjoyed that
Speaker 1: convo and got a lot from the nuance and the heart,
Speaker 1: and the humor and the passion. Here are the top
Speaker 1: takeaways for me. I think Addison really drove home such
Speaker 1: an important point that if you are looking to become
Speaker 1: a better ally or what I like to call an
Speaker 1: accomplice in supporting folks in your life, one of the
Speaker 1: best things that you can do is to examine your
Speaker 1: own relationship with your upbringing, with your trauma, with the
Speaker 1: norms that you grew up with that might have led
Speaker 1: to buy binary thinking. And remember we're not just talking
Speaker 1: about binary in relationship to gender identity, but Addison mentioned,
Speaker 1: you know, even the idea of perfectionism is binary in thinking, right,
Speaker 1: it's perfect or it's a failure. Binary thinking is a key,
Speaker 1: key part of dominant story DNA. And then Nicolette Mason
Speaker 1: gave me literally my new favorite terminology, which is a
Speaker 1: possibility model, you know, the idea that you can see
Speaker 1: yourself and the possibility to live a life more on
Speaker 1: your own terms. By learning about the stories and seeing
Speaker 1: the lives of other people. That really lit me up
Speaker 1: and talking about we are always unlearning and relearning, not
Speaker 1: just about this but honestly about everything. As we're gonna
Speaker 1: be challenging status quo, as we're gonna be challenging dominant
Speaker 1: stories and dominant culture and binary industries. We're always going
Speaker 1: to be unlearning and relearning. And both of my guests
Speaker 1: had great advice for those that are listening who are
Speaker 1: parents and teachers and educators who want to help in
Speaker 1: inspire and support a young person in your life. Things
Speaker 1: that you can do that are very tactical, like diversify
Speaker 1: your social media feed. I think nicolete used the word
Speaker 1: involve more plural voices in the content that you consume.
Speaker 1: The more you're filled up with a variety of stories,
Speaker 1: the more you can offer those stories as possibility models
Speaker 1: for the young people in your life. And specifically, if
Speaker 1: you are looking for more tangible tools, I would love
Speaker 1: for you to check out the resources at dove dot
Speaker 1: com slash Proud to be Me. Dove has created incredible
Speaker 1: body positivity tools for l g B t Q plus
Speaker 1: youth and the adults that support them that really explores
Speaker 1: beauty beyond the binary and gender identity, and it gives
Speaker 1: some really tangible guides on accurate and inclusive language including
Speaker 1: pronouns and how to avoid miss gender ing and how
Speaker 1: to forgive yourself, move on and keep going forward if
Speaker 1: you do make a misstep, because again, we are always
Speaker 1: un learning and we are always re learning. And of course,
Speaker 1: if you're interested in learning more about dominant stories and
Speaker 1: how to change them, I teach workshops on this stuff.
Speaker 1: You can find me at Jess Weiner dot com or
Speaker 1: follow me at I'm Jess Weiner on Instagram. And of
Speaker 1: course we always want to hear from you, so if
Speaker 1: you want to tell us how you're challenging, changing, rewriting
Speaker 1: your dominant stories, you can email us at podcast at
Speaker 1: dominant stories dot com or leave me a voicemail at
Speaker 1: two on three to five nine three zero three three.
Speaker 1: I'll leave all this info in the show notes. Dominant
Speaker 1: Stories with Jess Weiner is a production of Shonda land
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.