1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello, 4 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 5 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: my name is known. They called me Ben and you're 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: you the most important part of this show, which is, 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: of course stuff they don't want you to know. Ladies 8 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, if this is your first time listening, thank 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: you so much for dropping by. We we hope that 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: you come by later to then I have to clear 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: the air here. You did all of your intro with 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: your eyes covered but forcefully, sort of a pained expression 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: on your face. What was that about, I'm I'm good. 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: Are my eyes like back to regular? Almost? Oh? Do 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,959 Speaker 1: they do that flippy things where they yeah, yeah? Are 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: you doing the reptilian stuff in the studio? I asked 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: you to do that. But we got pretty deep into 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: that Reptilian episode. We got a lot of a lot 19 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: of really interesting listener mail. Well, it came to a 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: point where we were all just thinking with a hive mind, 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: and I wonder if we should if we were on 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: the fence about whether we should have cut the part 23 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: where for like seventeen minutes we spoke in unison. Yeah, 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: I wonder if did you notice that? I just didn't 25 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: know what language it was. But today we are not 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: talking about lizard people. Today we were talking about, uh, 27 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: something something completely different as they used to see, perhaps 28 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: a Monty python. We are talking about what is popularly 29 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: known in the US as the Vietnam War. Um. If 30 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: you are someone who is Matt or nol or Eye's age, 31 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: then you likely have relatives, if you're in the U 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: S who have been involved in that conflict, and if 33 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: not an even at least seen platoon right, yes, or 34 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: any of the pieces of popular media that have come 35 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: out since the nineteen seventies. Sure, Rambo, First Blood, Apocalypse 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: Now which is my personal favorite, Forrest Gump, even Forrest 37 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: Gump even yes, and this, Um, So, the Vietnam War, 38 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: what what the U S usually refers to it as 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: is the American incursion with the idea of preventing the 40 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: rise of communism in Southeast Asia. That was the official 41 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: advertisement on the tin when it was sold to the 42 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: American public. Uh this later Uh this this later expanded 43 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: past Vietnam into Cambodia and Lao. This this war has 44 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: had a lastening and um a lasting and profound effect 45 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: both on the people of the US and the people 46 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: of Vietnam, as well as arguably the people of Russia 47 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: or the Soviet Union at the time, because it ended 48 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: up being a giant proxy war, right, yeah, exactly, And 49 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: the Vietnam Wars we consider it began in nineteen fifty five. 50 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: Direct US involvement officially ended with the signing of a 51 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: treaty called the Agreement on Ending the War and Restoring 52 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: Peace in Vietnam. A little yeah, it's it's a little undernose. 53 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: I guess they had to spell it out, you know. Uh. 54 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: And that was on January nine, seventy three. This document 55 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: is most often known as the Paris Peace Accords. The 56 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: war itself didn't end until seventy five with the fall 57 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: of Saigon. But what what did this agreement do? Well? 58 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: The agreement itself actually resulted in the release of five 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: ninety one American prisoners of war, of whom five sixty 60 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: six were military and twenty five were civilians. Um. In 61 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: addition to that, it established a framework for cooperation and 62 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: resolving the po w m I A related questions. So 63 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: prisoners of war and missing in action, and there were 64 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: there were quite a few questions about that. So yeah, 65 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: and because of this, from February nineteen seventy three to 66 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: April nineteen seventy three, Uncle Sam conducted what was called 67 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Operation Homecoming, and this returned prisoners war to the United States. 68 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: It rescued five hundred and ninety one in total. So 69 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: as of twenty sixteen, around one thousand, six twenty one 70 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: Americans are still officially considered missing or unaccounted for for 71 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: some reason or another during this Vietnam conflict, the Vietnam War, 72 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: or whatever else it was called at the time. And 73 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: this may be a point where many many of us 74 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: are listening in the audience may be saying, wait, you 75 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: guys just sort of glossed over the Vietnam War. All 76 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's ended. This is not exactly about 77 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War or the conflict in Southeast Asia. Because 78 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: the US has identified two hundred and nineties six individuals 79 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: as last known alive cases in all of Southeast Asia, 80 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: and following full investigations, by March of the Defense Department 81 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: confirmed the wartime death of two hundred and forty five 82 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: of these individuals too, there um to their official standards, 83 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: because this, friends is the official narrative. However, in the 84 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: decades since the withdrawal of US troops, numerous former military officials, 85 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: government officials, and members of the public believe that this country, 86 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: the United States of America, left service members behind in 87 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: Vietnam and Cambodia and in Laos and Cambodia. Allows as 88 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: particularly sticky subjects, as in many many cases, the US 89 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: was not supposed to be up there, and they were officially, um, 90 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: we're not there. And a lot of these people don't 91 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: just believe that they were left behind, you know, as in, 92 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: oh oops, we left a bunch of our servicemen behind. No, 93 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: they think it was done on purpose, and that the 94 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: US government has not only not been looking for these 95 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: missing soldiers, but actively obstructing any searches and covering up 96 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: the entire affair for the last forty odd years, right, 97 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: almost half a century. Double yikes, double yis why would 98 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: why would people think that this is an extraordinarily common 99 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: belief here in the US. And and we don't know 100 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: this is a very US specific topic, right, so we're 101 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: not sure, you know, how Australian listeners feel about this, 102 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: European listeners or listeners in uh, China or Vietnam and 103 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: specific around the world. So do right in and let 104 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: us know if you have heard of this before, which 105 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: is considered a miscarriage of justice by some and an 106 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: out and out conspiracy theory by others. So why on 107 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: earth would the government do something like that. Let's look 108 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: at sort of the evolution of this suspicions about remaining 109 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: service and then start almost immediately after the signing of 110 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: the Paris Peace Accords with we we're just going to 111 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: call him that because, as you pointed out, that name 112 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: is a it's a mouthful. Yeah. No, I like the 113 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: Paris piece of cords. That's got a nice ring to it. 114 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: The other one is just like, who's d LDR? Who 115 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: are we going to save some money on paper? Guys 116 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: like So this is right, You're right that things were 117 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: very tacky back man. Yeah, well there were longer names, 118 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying for things. Um, yes, all it is. 119 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: It is true. This is a related point for anybody 120 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: who was not alive in nineteen seventy three, all names 121 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: were actually longer, every single one. The United States of 122 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: America was actually the United States of Cooperative Municipalities with 123 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: the intention to act in concert of America. COMMA named 124 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: after Amerigo Vespucci. Yes dot com. Yeah yeah, that's actually 125 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: where the internet comes from? Is that that name? Facts? 126 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, these are facts, alternative facts. Perhaps we're 127 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: perhaps if this sounds crazier, this is the first time 128 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: you're hearing it, we invite you to check out our 129 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: earlier podcast on the Mandela Effect. So President Nixon at 130 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: the end of this he states that all the POW's 131 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: have been returned and now at the time, the US 132 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: listed two thousand six d forty six Americans as unaccounted for, 133 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: including about and fifty prisoners of war or missing an 134 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: action and roughly reported killed in action but the body 135 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: not recovered, which is, you know, in all seriousness, a 136 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: a profound tragedy, you know, because what happens to the 137 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: closure for those families, I would think not incredibly uncommon, 138 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: though maybe that's a high number, but you know, you're 139 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: in a war situation where bodies can be completely obliterated 140 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: by you know, explosions, where you're not going to have 141 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: any remains, but it's too difficult to retrieve them without 142 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: any commanding officer even knowing a general location absolutely or 143 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: you know, a general fate. That that's I mean, war 144 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: is one of the most brutal inventions of our society. 145 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: And you know, okay, arguably humans didn't invent it, because 146 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: it has been documented that other primates have large scale 147 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: UH conflicts or at least tribal level conflicts. But humans 148 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: have taken it to an insidious art form. And you're 149 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, it's it's odd to have such precise numbers. 150 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: And for people who are not familiar with this, the 151 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: Vietnam War from the us I had some of the 152 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: best documentation for war of its kind, so we are 153 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: able to know more of these numbers than we would know, 154 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: for instance, in World War two. Right, But Nolan is 155 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: absolutely right. People disappear in war, you know, and that's 156 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: the that's the question. So there's this there's this one 157 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: thing that that is kind of a a spark point. 158 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: It's the turn back now or or you know, delve 159 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: into the murky stuff that occurs when there's a very 160 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: low number of POW's returned from Laos and this causes 161 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: immediate concern because the pen of gone in secret meetings, right, 162 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: not really revealed to the public. I thought there would 163 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: be as many as forty or forty one prisoners held there, 164 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: um only if you have been known to be captured 165 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: for certain And a tiny, like a negligible amount of 166 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: people came back, like three or something, and the responsibility 167 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: for finding these missing soldiers fell to you're gonna You're 168 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: gonna like this one fell to the Defense Prisoner of 169 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: War slash Missing Personnel Office and the Joint po w 170 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: M I A accounting commands. Can we at least make 171 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: it a sexy acronym? I know, right, well, you will 172 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: be happy to know all that in the National Defense 173 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: Authorization Act combined to those two agencies into one, so 174 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: thank god, and along with one other thing. But yeah, 175 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: onto the end, yeah the ride the movie dot com. 176 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: So Then in the nineteen seventies and eighties, the the relatives, 177 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: the family and friends of all of these missing personnel 178 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: started getting agitated because as you do, uh, they started 179 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: becoming politically active, and they start requesting that the United 180 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: States reveal what steps they were taking, what steps they 181 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: took and continue to take to follow up on their 182 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: missing relatives and their loved ones like what kind of 183 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: intelligence do you have with regards to these missing and 184 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: action soldiers? Right, they started demanding accountability. And regardless of 185 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: what you personally believe in terms of politics or the 186 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: role of governments and state versus federal, local, what have you. Uh, 187 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,599 Speaker 1: accountability should be key in any of these things. And 188 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: accountability goes both ways, you know what I mean, to 189 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: the citizen as well as to the institutions. So this, 190 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: this is a good move, and this is this move 191 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: is saying initially saying, just well, tell us what you're doing, 192 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, shed some light on this process, 193 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: because these people could very well be alive. In some cases, 194 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: they just know when they were last seen alive and 195 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: it was years ago, right where was months ago? So 196 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: this is almost a black box for these relatives and 197 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: these loved ones. So initial inquiries revealed that important information 198 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: had not been pursued, and so many families and their 199 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: supporters asked for the public release of these records and 200 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: called for full investigation. So when we say important information 201 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: and not been pursued, we're saying stuff like um an 202 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: intelligence agency intercepts a radio transmission from Thailand that details 203 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: they the details they've cited um a work camp, you know, 204 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: with like eleven people who are clearly not Vietnamese, Cambodian 205 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: or Lovation, and that they're being held after the war 206 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: is something. But then the intelligence agency on the U 207 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: S I would say, well, that's Thailand, you know what 208 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: I mean, We're gonna trust this foreign intercept or whatever. 209 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: We just sit on it because it's not it doesn't 210 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: seem like it's pertinent to any major investigation you're doing, 211 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: right then right? And then also, you know, there's a 212 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: fair question like how do you discern the belogne from 213 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: the what's a better meat than Bologne? Thereso tereso, you know, 214 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: a good generous salami? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. How 215 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: do you separate the bologna from the thereso and good 216 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: genoa salami? It's tough. It's tough in the intelligence community. Yeah, 217 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: And you can't send people out to investigate every single one. 218 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: It's just not possible. I mean you can, you can 219 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: try your hardest, but it is a part of my 220 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: French here it is it can sometimes be a no 221 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: win situation. Well, it's like you get bogged down in 222 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: this idea that bureaucracy is inherently inefficient and massive and 223 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, and a pain. And then he realized that 224 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: the only reason it exists is to manage the massive 225 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: and inefficient and painful, you know what I mean. So 226 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: it's like you can't really fault it every time for 227 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: not being able to be everything to everybody, right, and 228 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: and on that perspective too, it might be a damned 229 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: if you do, damned if you don't situation, because like, 230 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: think about it. So if okay, everybody listening, let's say 231 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: all of us are the CIA in the seventies and eighties. Congratulations, 232 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: were sorry, I had to find out this way. So 233 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: one of us gets one of us, one group of 234 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: us gets a report that says, all right, foreign radio 235 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: intercept has said that has identified you know, a dozen 236 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: people in a remote area being working in forced agriculture. 237 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: Then the question becomes as as we, already, being a 238 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: large organization, say like a, well, if we don't investigate this, 239 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: then there is a risk that we will have we 240 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: will have screwed. But if we do investigate this and 241 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: we don't find anything, then we will be roasted over 242 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: the coals for you know, frivolous government spending or something 243 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: or since you know, listeners, you and Matt Noel and 244 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: I are now part of this fictional CIA or Another 245 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: thing is if we delve into this, is it going 246 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: to interfere with other active operations that we have in 247 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: the area. Yeah. Well, and here here's the craziest part. 248 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: This idea that the government isn't doing everything it can 249 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: do to get the loved ones of these people back. 250 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: That is a polarizing concept, and that if you latch 251 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: onto that, let's say, as a politician in the public sector, 252 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: then you're you're going to get some votes from a 253 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: good number of people if you're championing this idea that 254 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: the government is not doing everything it can do, or 255 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: even like a faction of the government because of certain leanings, 256 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: maybe even you can kind of characterize it as a 257 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: political issue rather than just a matter of unmanageable situations. 258 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: You know. Well, and it doesn't even matter if you, uh, 259 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: the person running truly believes there, right, Yeah, unfortunately, I 260 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: mean that's the rule with a lot of political stuff, 261 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: you know. And and this is this is an issue that, um, 262 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: this is an issue that politicians have investigated or advocated 263 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: on any political strike. Ross Perow was very big into 264 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: um trying to discover the truth behind this and did 265 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 1: believe that there were people left behind an abandoned uh. 266 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: John Kerry, John McCain, George H. W. Bush like it. 267 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: It goes across the spectrum. And George W. Bush was 268 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: c I A at least for a time. Yes, is 269 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: anybody do you ever become not c I A. We've 270 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: had this discussion before. I think you're right. You are 271 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: always like at least in the club. I feel like 272 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 1: you have to be. You've got information if you've been 273 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: in the CIA that we we can't let you into 274 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: the wrong hands. It's like being the president. Maybe when 275 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: you the president and you're referred to as they don't 276 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: really call you the former president, do they? They call 277 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: you the president Mr? Presidents And yeah, yeah, people don't 278 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: call you Jimmy anymore. People don't happens to you. You're 279 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: you become someone else entirely in your mind, is not 280 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: your own. It's true. Man. And if you've seen those 281 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: before and after pictures of every president since the invention 282 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: of photography, as it will wear you down, especially the 283 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: black and white ones where the bags under the eyes 284 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: are so incredible, just like pools it's crazy. Man. Well, um, 285 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: while we're on this subject, we do have to examine 286 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: this because this didn't just stop in the in the seventies. 287 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: This didn't just stop, um like with a hard stop 288 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: and a couple of investigations. This we're on and on 289 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: and on, and they're tantalizing hints two different parts of 290 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: this story. And we're going to give you a few 291 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. Let's begin looking at 292 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: a few examples here. The first one comes from nineteen 293 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: seventy nine. The gentleman whose name is Bobby Garwood, Private 294 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: Bobby Garwood. He returned to the United States and seventy 295 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: nine after fourteen years living as a prisoner of war. 296 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: Now he says, he he says, claims that he was 297 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: one of many soldiers still being held in Vietnam and 298 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: several other countries in the Jason area, like you said, 299 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: Ben laos Uh, several others um So. The United States 300 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: denied these allegations, and furthermore, they claimed that Garwood was 301 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: actually a collaborator. He was in on the whole thing. 302 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: He wasn't a prisoner, that he went over the hill 303 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: and turned coat. Right. He was reportedly released in nineteen 304 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: seventy three with some other American POWs, but he did 305 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: not return to the United States until March twenty second, 306 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. During that time, he was listed as 307 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: either having volunteered or been forced into a work group 308 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: repairing a generator at a re education camp. Other reports 309 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: described him as working in Island Fortress or being a 310 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: driver and vehicle mechanic WHOA When he gets back in 311 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: seventy nine, over a period of eleven months, he faces 312 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: a general court martial at Camp Lejon, North Carolina, because 313 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: other Marines testified like other not just Marines, but other 314 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: service members testified seeing him in action with VC with Vietcong, 315 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: so he uh. He was found not guilty of desertion 316 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: or solicitation of U S troops in the field to 317 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: defect or maltreatment U. He was convicted in one of 318 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: communicating with the enemy and the assault of an American 319 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: pow at a camp and that violates the Uniform Code 320 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: of Military Justice. He was the court martial sentenced in 321 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: the reduction to a private forfeiture of all pay and allowances, 322 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: dishonorable discharge, but he was not confined. He appealed his 323 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: conviction was upheld. Robert Garwood says that he saw other 324 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: American POWs after nineteen seventy three, and he insists that 325 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: he himself had been a prisoner for fourteen years. Um 326 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: many of the POWs who claimed have seen him collaborated 327 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: with the enemy also feel he should not have been 328 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: court martial because that's the thing, you know, it's if 329 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: he is if he was imprisoned, and which is a 330 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: story that the American public will probably never know him 331 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: full if it was in prison, was he forced to 332 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: cooperate or did he choose to you know, it gets 333 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: it gets sticky, sou so according to this guy, and 334 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: according to the people who believe that there were purposefully 335 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: abandoned POWs or service members uh in in country after 336 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: seventy three, this guy has been silenced because he's telling 337 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: the truth. But to other people two critics of that belief, 338 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: he is trying to cover his own you know, cover 339 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: his own high courts, which at this point you can, 340 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: you can easily go down a rabbit hole of who 341 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: said what and what happened where, But the facts remain 342 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: he was not convicted of collaborating with the enemy. Then 343 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: we have an investigation led by John Kerry in Senator 344 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: carry Um was the head of a select committee investigation 345 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: into the intelligence services process UM searching for remaining POWs 346 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: in Vietnam. There were two former Defense secretaries, Melvin Laird 347 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: and James Schlessinger, who said the Nixon administration most definitely 348 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: knew that there were still POWs in Vietnam after the 349 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: close of Operation Homecoming. The investigation also revealed that thousands 350 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: of files from the n s A on missing soldiers 351 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: which were written during the war, were completely ignored by 352 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: intelligence services after the war. UM and then after two 353 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: years the Kerry Committee came to the conclusion that there 354 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: was no compelling evidence that any American soldiers were still 355 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: being held. Um not just in Vietnam, but in any 356 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: Southeast Asian countries felt that this was definitively the case. 357 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: Um and then a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, Sydney Schauenberg, 358 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: accused the committe of assisting in a government cover up. 359 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: And I mean, if you kind of have a government 360 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: cover up, what better smoke screen for than a you know, 361 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: tireless investigation that supposedly puts all of these concerns too bad, 362 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: Just like Jeff k assassination. Just like the nine eleven Commission, 363 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: we got a way of something around for the public 364 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: to latch onto and say, oh no, no, it's fine. 365 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: See see see look at all this paper. These are 366 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: very long names. Yes, I know that sounds flippants, but 367 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: for people who were opponents of that investigation or thought 368 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: it was a cover up, this was It was exactly 369 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: the same kind of tactic, right, And it's very important 370 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: to say that what we're doing is exploring the different 371 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: views of this side. We're not casting aspersion on any 372 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: service member or any government official. We're just telling you 373 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: where these people stand on what they say and where 374 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: they disagree. And the people who said like that this 375 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: was a cover up, these were not fringe members of society, 376 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, as an all said Politzer Prize winning journalists, 377 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: this became an increasingly common belief. It was a very 378 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: unpopular war. People were at people were at odds on 379 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: all sorts of levels, and distrust of the government was 380 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: very high. So of course it seems like something that 381 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: would happen, you know, and that one of the big 382 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: questions would be, well, what is the motivation? And so 383 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: when the official narrative came came down and you know 384 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: veterans like John Kerry veterans, right, John McCain, veterans, these 385 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: these um former military members who were serving in federal 386 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: government came back and said, you know, we gave it 387 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: our best shot, and we tried to figure out what 388 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: was going on, and this is what we found. Even then, 389 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: people wouldn't believe the whole story. They felt like this 390 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: was all spoken mirrors and this got another, um, I guess, 391 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: another dose of high octing conspiratorial fuel just uh like 392 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,959 Speaker 1: during the during the investigation in the belief that they 393 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: were abandoned soldiers or remaining POW's got a new burst 394 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: of high acting conspiratorial fuel. At a summit June, Boris 395 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: Yeltson was talking to NBC News and this was reported 396 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: by the New York Times, and apparently he said that 397 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: some Americans captured during the Vietnam War were apparently transferred 398 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: from Hannoi to labor camps in the Soviet Union, and 399 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: he added that some of them may still be alive 400 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: at that time, possibly in psychiatric hospitals. Ladies and gentlemen, 401 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: we have a clip from that conversation. Yes, n want, Yes, 402 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: Mr Yelson For years that have been rooms in the 403 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: United States that American POWs from the Vietnam War would 404 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: transferred from Vietnam to the Soviet Union. Do you know 405 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: that to be true? Now archives have shown that it 406 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: is true. Some of them were transferred to the territory 407 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: of the former USSRUH, some were kept in labor games. Yeah, 408 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: we don't have a complete data, and we can only 409 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: surmise that some may still be alive. That is a 410 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: bomb drop right in the in the American public, in 411 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: the heart of the American consciousness, which that anatomy metaphor 412 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: doesn't check out. So don't think about it too much. 413 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: But we do want to say to have to have 414 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: a diplomat like there are at the time as the 415 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: Prime minister at the high level for an official Yeah, 416 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: to have have to say this was during glassmost so 417 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: kind of a peace offering to Um, I do want 418 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: to win everybody out there listening to know that we 419 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: had a very in depth conversation about who should do 420 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: the exit. That's why I was trying not to crack up. 421 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: But um you you guys would make great re enactors, 422 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: you know, you know, maybe maybe we should get into 423 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: re enactments. Oh Man at the end, Johnny dangerous strick. So, yes, 424 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: who would these soldiers have been? This is a strange thing. 425 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: And I followed up offline with some military sources to 426 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: ask about this, and it's people who would asked not 427 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: to be identified on the show. So the people I 428 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: spoke with believe that the US probably did leave some 429 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: people behind, but not not on purpose, like not as 430 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: a institutional thing. Like you don't get elected president and 431 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: then someone gives you an envelope and says, never ask 432 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: about these missing six people or something. What they said 433 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: happened is that anybody taken to the U s s R. 434 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: Who was captured would have to be a high value 435 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: intelligence agent of some sort, so maybe a company man 436 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: from the CIA, maybe military naval intelligence, because otherwise what 437 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: what would be the use of that expensive and dangerous transport, 438 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, And they would probably take them by boat 439 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: instead of by plane, because if a boat goes down, 440 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot less evidence than if a plane goes down. 441 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: I can imagine it being a an implanted agent, maybe 442 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: even so specifically was captured to be taken there if possible. 443 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: I know that sounds insane. It sounds like something even 444 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: that would never happen. But I can imagine it being 445 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: like something that happens a set up, turn coat of 446 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: some way, or you know what I mean, like a 447 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: double agent. Yeah, and it's it's tough to know. It's 448 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: tough to know where someone's real allegiances lie or if 449 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: they have real allegiances. Is that a double double cross? 450 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Many crosses are being doubled there? Yeah, is the quadruple across, 451 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: triple across, the quadruple across. I guess it just depends 452 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: on when you want to stop or when they stopped 453 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: believing theoretically go on crossing indefinitely and just be like 454 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: the most this the most untrustworthy person. It can only last, 455 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: I think. I think eventually they're just getting get tired 456 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: of it, um, which would be very dangerous. But you know, 457 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: a lot of times these people, if so, we know 458 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: it's probably a small percentage of the missing people, but 459 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: of that small percentage went there, um, their lives very 460 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: well could have been a living hell, you know what 461 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: I mean, especially if they possess secrets that exist only 462 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: in their in their minds, the private secrets of one 463 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: of the world's great superpowers. That's a very dangerous collection 464 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: of thoughts to have ownership over, and because of questions 465 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: like this, right because Boris y Eelson admits that there 466 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: were people spirited away because they're continual or there they're 467 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: numerous radio intercepts saying oh, we've seen people living, or 468 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: there are people in country who say, oh, I've seen 469 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: this guy is not Vietnamese. Why is he living in 470 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: this cave, you know, with these ripped up clothes, And 471 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: also to a degree in cultural consciousness because of you know, 472 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: the stories of World War Two survivors, especially in the 473 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: Japanese army, who were living as though the war had 474 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: never ended, and in some cases didn't know it had. 475 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: Because of all these cases, it seems not impossible that 476 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: there could have been people left behind, whether purposely or accidentally, 477 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: or whether it's bonds anyone's control. But several of the 478 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: privately funded expeditions by veterans Love One survivors um several 479 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: of those expeditions got dogged by accusations of fraud. People 480 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: would say, well, the government, being this big, inefficient bureaucracy 481 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: is not going to be able to effectively do this, 482 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: or they don't care because what is one human life 483 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: and the great abattoir of geopolitics. So with the best 484 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: of intentions, people got together and said, we're going to 485 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: go find this and we're going to search either for 486 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: following up on evidence of living people or following up 487 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: on evidence of remains. And not in all cases, but 488 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: in many cases you would see stories of someone accepting 489 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of money buying a boat and the boat 490 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: never left the dock in Thailand, and they were beguiling people, 491 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: They were conning them with the worst thing. It reminds 492 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: me of our conversation we had had before about people 493 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: who claimed to contact the dead on behalf of the living. 494 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: You know, are they are they just exploiting people sometimes 495 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: or do they really believe it? No, this is not 496 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: to say, ladies and gentlemen, that these missions were not genuine. 497 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: Many were, and there are people who claimed that they 498 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: that they found evidence of recent survivors. But just for perspective, 499 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: let's talk about a fairly recent hopes. That's right, the 500 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: John Hartley hoax. UM, in a documentary, portrayed a man 501 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: claiming to be the missing assumed dead soldier by the 502 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: name of John Hartley robertson Um and in the film, 503 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: this person met with surviving family members and convinced them 504 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: he was their relative. Later DNA test revealed that this 505 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: was not the case. And so this points to an 506 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: issue that potentially could have come from a lot of 507 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: these things that we're talking about is folks bilking relatives 508 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: supposed long lost relatives, whether out of money or support 509 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: in some way. UH. And nowadays, with you know, crowdsourcing, crowdfunding, 510 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: that's a lot easier to do than it used to be, 511 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: and it's also a lot easier to find potential marks 512 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: for this type of activity. If you want to know 513 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: more about that documentaries specifically about John Hartley. UH. It 514 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: is called Unclaimed. It's pretty great. I remember seeing trailer 515 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: for it not long ago and getting interested in it. 516 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: It's I think when I saw it um when it 517 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: came out, I would recommend it. It's a fascinating, intriguing 518 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: story that looks at what happens when family members are 519 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: given this chance to reconnect with someone who they think 520 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: is a long lost loved one, but then it turns 521 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: out to be a nightmare. And it's one of those 522 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: things too, where put yourself in the position of a 523 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: family member like that, where someone who for all intents 524 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: and purpose has been dead to you for years, you're 525 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: given what you see as a second chance. I mean, 526 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: who among us wouldn't maybe be a little blindsided by 527 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: that to to to to the point where maybe you 528 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: might not have your wits about you. It's a pretty 529 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: horrible thing to take advantage of someone's vulnerability like that. Well, guys, 530 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: I think one thing that plays in just about all 531 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: of this discussion is the myriad ways that in a 532 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: war zone situation, people can and will be ultimately left behind. 533 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot of conditions, a lot of variables at play. 534 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: It's some scary stuff, um, and I think we should 535 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: talk about some of that stuff. But first let's take 536 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: a quick sponsor break. So, yes, you know what, you're right. 537 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: One thing is for sure, a lot of people ended 538 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: up missing. A lot of American soldiers ended up missing 539 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: during the Vietnam conflict, during the war um and for 540 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: very variety of reasons, a whole bunch of reasons. So 541 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: let's look at the most likely possibilities. One is that 542 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: some men were killed, They're killed in action, and then 543 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: their bodies are either burned or disposed of somehow by 544 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: the enemy by in this case of viet Cong, and 545 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: they will never be found ever, probably unless you know, 546 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: a big excavation occurs, uh in the jungle somewhere buried 547 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: in unmarked graves, right ye, buried, burned. I mean, they're 548 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: all kinds of reasons. Grilla forces often wouldn't have the 549 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: capability to transport a hostage or the desire, and this 550 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: this is why death is killed in action or KIA 551 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: is the most prominent possibility. Unfortunately, and even more unfortunately, 552 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: we can't know how many of these people still missing 553 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: are in fact, you know, expired or died in this way. 554 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: Another possibility is that they deserted. And there are very 555 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: strange stories here. Um. Some return to the United States 556 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: under false pretenses or false identities. So the Matt Frederick 557 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: who shipped off for comes back with the new identity, 558 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: which is what would your fake IDB Enrique Iglesias Jr. 559 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: LEA I like is a subtle I would just be 560 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: Steban Esteban. It's nice with the with the accent mark 561 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: over it. No, oh, there's a story to Esteban. No 562 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: within question mark sure, And I of course would be 563 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: Max Powers. Comma asked her not with the secret that's 564 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, blends in. But some others escaped to nearby 565 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: countries like Australia, right, or a different neighboring country, or 566 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: went to Canada, and some indeed found homes inside Vietnam. 567 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: This means that there is a possibility, of very small possibility, 568 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: that some former soldiers living in Southeast Asia simply don't 569 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: want to be found. And we have to consider how 570 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: much time has passed now, right, so these people would 571 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: be on the older end of the human spectrum. There's 572 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: one example of how things kind of go off the 573 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: rails and this and that's a Vietnam era legend that 574 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: we learned about in the course of our research. It's 575 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 1: a place called Soul City. This rumor, this was rumored 576 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: to be a district in suburban Saigon that was the 577 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:45,880 Speaker 1: domain of many US deserters, mainly African American, and that 578 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: they became a drug a drug empire essentially running heroin, racketeering, weapons, prostitution, 579 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: and it was an enclave. Officially, this has not been confirmed, 580 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: so we we can't speak. I don't I don't know 581 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: about you guys, but I was not in Vietnam. So 582 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: we can't speak to the veracity of that. If anyone 583 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: listening has firsthand experience or can confirm it, we would 584 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: like to hear about not just that, but other enclaves 585 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: if they were around yes, yes, and there's and and 586 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: also to what degree this stuff was true, was it 587 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: actually how big? Was it actually if it existed? Or 588 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: was it just a couple of people who were entrepreneurs. 589 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: And there's another. A lot of the reality here is unfortunate. 590 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: When Saigon fell on April nineteen seventy five, North Vietnamese 591 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: forces swept through the country and through other cities like wildfire, 592 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: and they did not take prisoners. Did they find deserters 593 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: probably most likely? Were they friendly to those deserters, probably not? 594 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: Uh is, So this would have ended some of those 595 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: some of those um communities, those you know, even more 596 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: secret communities. And this leads us to our conclusion. The 597 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: current US position is that there were no purposely abandoned soldiers, 598 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: and efforts to locate the remains of those who died 599 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: in country continue with full international support today, so support 600 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: from the Laoisian, Cambodian and Vietnam and Vietnamese government. Now 601 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,839 Speaker 1: there's something to consider here. Guys, we haven't. We kind 602 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: of touched on, but not really. What about the missions 603 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: that only what how many people would know at the 604 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: top of the CIA if it was a secret mission 605 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: like compartmentalized intelligence. Yeah, I mean a handful of human 606 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: beings wouldn't know if there are secret missions going on. 607 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: And you can almost guarantee you that this was occurring 608 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: during wartime. There the CIA is going to be having 609 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: special operations that nobody knows about. The black black bag, 610 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 1: black black ops. And this doesn't have to just be um. 611 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: This doesn't just have to be the CIA's involvement. This 612 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: could also be naval and military intelligence right deep cover 613 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: stuff or deep incursions. And also, let's consider how many 614 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 1: other popular conspiracy theories this is touching on, which would 615 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: be what if some of those missions involved drug trafficking 616 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:52,439 Speaker 1: to finance something illegal that needed plausible deniability. So we 617 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: were also talking off air. Um Noah, a marine who 618 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: now works in I T did not have experience in Vietnam, 619 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: but brought up a very interesting point that I had 620 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: not considered there. When I asked this marine about the likelihood, 621 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to hear what service members thought of the 622 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: likelihood of purposefully abandoned po ws M a's and this 623 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: marine said that they totally believe it could happen, and 624 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: that we should also look into the current assets of 625 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: the U. S military around the world, estimated as to 626 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: be in one and thirty five countries in some capacity, 627 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: who are all sort of unnamed assets, you know, uh, 628 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: functioning and in g O or in a consular position. 629 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: Who if the if their cover gets blown, have to 630 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: provide their own exit strategy and they do not you know, 631 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,959 Speaker 1: they do not exist? Um? Yeah, and would they? Would 632 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: those people be counted in those numbers? Right? That's that's 633 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: a crucial question. And then there's there's another question that 634 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: we kind of talked about h off air, which is 635 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: sort of motivation. Right, Well, I mean, I don't know 636 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,839 Speaker 1: in all this, I've been wondering what you guys think 637 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,000 Speaker 1: would be the most compelling reason that the US government 638 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: would a purposefully leave their own troops behind and then 639 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: be trying to cover up. I guess to cover up 640 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: is inherent in doing the bad thing. So maybe we 641 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: can skip too, But why what's to what end? But 642 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: we're talking six separate presidential administrations, right, and that's the 643 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: very definition of a of a conspiracy, or it could 644 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: just be deep state cover up. But why Matt, Yeah, 645 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: what's the motivation? That's I could I could imagine a 646 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 1: couple of things. So in the short term, in the 647 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: short game, if there's a desire for political leverage and 648 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: post war negotiations, then that could have occurred. But the 649 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: Paris Peace Accords had explicitly contained a framework for resolving 650 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,800 Speaker 1: POW situations for the U. S side, then it's quite 651 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: possible that and there were things that would put that 652 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: would make Uncle Sam's hands too dirty, and then they 653 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: war crimes and that they cut they cut these people loose, 654 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: or they just didn't look into it very deeply. And 655 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking a lot about We're talking a 656 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: lot about very murky, very questionable things on both sides, 657 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: especially if there are people who are alive, who are 658 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: who were held and rendered invisible to history. That's a 659 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 1: very dangerous thing. And it can happen wrisily than people think. 660 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: It's not just something that happened under the reign of Stalin. 661 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: It can happen today. Two people, um and two and 662 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: and honestly, for not just the black bag operative types 663 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: uh In in the U s Army. But for anyone 664 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,520 Speaker 1: whom I have died or been captured or disappeared from 665 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: the official narrative history, to these unnamed heroic women and 666 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,760 Speaker 1: men across the planet in every nation, we do hope 667 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,359 Speaker 1: you and your loved ones find peace, because often these 668 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 1: people are used as pollens, and I think that could 669 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: be a motivation. Are you guys familiar with the my 670 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: Lime massacre? Unfortunately? Yeah, I mean so there was actually 671 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,800 Speaker 1: a uh task force I guess you could say, established 672 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group in the wake of 673 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: photographic evidence of what was thought to be a massacre 674 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: of women and children. Uh. It's the kind of thing 675 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: you see depicted in some of these films we're talking about, 676 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: like in a Platoon there's a sequence where some of 677 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: this goes down, and also in um uh Apocalypse now 678 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: um specifically Implatune though, But anyhow, uh, you know, and 679 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: the purpose of this group was to investigate emerging claims 680 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 1: of war crimes by US military during Vietnam. And you know, 681 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: if there was a reason to perhaps let some people 682 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: stay lost, maybe some folks saw some things and could 683 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,040 Speaker 1: have corroborated some things and had some attacks of conscience 684 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: that would have maybe made Uncle Sam, as you said, 685 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: Ben have a little bit more blood on their hands 686 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 1: than they wanted. And politically, you know, that could have 687 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: been bad. It was a very unpopular war. We were 688 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: there for a very very long time, far longer than 689 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: we intended to be, and we lost a lot of people, 690 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: and you know, it was just a very unpopular place 691 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: to be and you know, there was a lot of 692 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 1: clean up that had to be done in order to 693 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of wash our hands of some of that. And 694 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, this kind of stuff, these kind of stories 695 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: not exactly helping with the pr narrative, right right, well said, 696 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: And to Matt's point, you know, this doesn't have to 697 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: be an entire government. This could be compartmentalized intelligence deep state. 698 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's distressing, but at certain levels, at 699 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,799 Speaker 1: certain institutions, it only takes a few people to keep 700 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 1: powerful secrets. So it's more again of a black box, 701 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,319 Speaker 1: and we could be in a situation where hundreds of 702 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: thousands of people are doing their level best. Like the 703 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: Army has special branches that go out into that part 704 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: of the world every year with full cooperation to find remains, 705 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,959 Speaker 1: and they find them. That's the thing they're they're still 706 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:54,839 Speaker 1: finding bodies, but the question is that somebody else obstructed 707 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,359 Speaker 1: and so do our presidents aware of it? Because UM 708 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: the Barack Obama administration also pressed for further cooperation investigating 709 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:10,280 Speaker 1: entities am I A cases h during a during another summit. 710 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: So within recent years and at present, it seems some 711 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: probably did die in combat, some probably did dessert, and 712 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: some are probably living or have lived under assumed identity, 713 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: under assumed identities in somewhere in the world. Many of 714 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: those in that third group may have already died of 715 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: natural causes, living an entirely different life from the one 716 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: they left behind in the jungle. As for the prisoners, 717 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: no matter how much we go back and forth, we 718 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: may never know for sure. You can go and find 719 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:57,920 Speaker 1: a wealth of live sightings and wealth of people insisting 720 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: they've done this. But Bobby Garwood was a controversial returning figure. 721 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: And uh the case that we mentioned earlier, the Hartley hoax, 722 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 1: it did turn out to be a hoax. The DNA 723 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: didn't match. UM have added fuel to both camps, the 724 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: people who believe that they were abandoned POWs and the 725 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: people who believe that there were not And so we 726 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,880 Speaker 1: close our episode today, we want to hear from you 727 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: what is what in your experience is plausible here? Is it? 728 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: Is it possible that the US cut operation cut servicemen 729 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,919 Speaker 1: and operator operators loose uh to preserve what was seen 730 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: as greater stability at the time. Is this conspiracy theory 731 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 1: that people are milking for political gain? Um? And yes, 732 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: we have not touched on any of the other Vietnam 733 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 1: related conspiracies. The legends of real life Colonel Kurtz is 734 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,960 Speaker 1: allah heart of Darkness, Apocalypse now the effects of Agent 735 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: Orange and more so right to us and let us 736 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 1: know what we should cover. If you do want to 737 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: write to us, you can find us on Facebook where 738 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,560 Speaker 1: we are Conspiracy Stuff, or on Twitter also conspiracy Stuff. 739 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,359 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram Conspiracy Stuff Show. And 740 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,399 Speaker 1: if you don't like that stuff, you can always send 741 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,799 Speaker 1: us an email. Uh, but we'll we'll tell you how 742 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,520 Speaker 1: to do that later. Yes. Yes, First it's time for 743 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: shut at Corner. Our first shout out comes from Carlton. 744 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 1: Carlton says, in your recent episode you mentioned G and 745 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,960 Speaker 1: I have a quick and dirty way for pretty much 746 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:43,280 Speaker 1: anyone to feel it. You say, yeah, so dirty. Thank you, Carlton. Uh. 747 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 1: Carlton says, First, you should sit upright or stand. Okay, 748 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,359 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this as I say it, all right, 749 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,760 Speaker 1: with both feet pointed straight out forward at your shoulders length. Okay. Second, 750 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: you need to reach out your hands and palms facing 751 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: towards each other. So palms facing each other, hands out. 752 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,720 Speaker 1: The elbow should be bent at about forty five degrees, 753 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:10,280 Speaker 1: so there's ninety let's do Now. Your fingers should form 754 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,800 Speaker 1: a claw pointed to each other. Then you close your eyes, 755 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,960 Speaker 1: calm your breath, and slowly close the space in between 756 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 1: your hands, as if you're holding an imaginary apple sized sphere. Now, 757 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: if you're calm enough, you will feel that your fingertips 758 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 1: already felt pressure, but not because of direct contact. If 759 00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,480 Speaker 1: you reach this step, then you can move the entire 760 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: palm back and forth to experience an odd feeling similar 761 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: to the repellent force of two magnets. It almost sounds 762 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,840 Speaker 1: like you're starting at kama maya or you know, a 763 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,839 Speaker 1: fireball can style? Yeah, how do you can style? That's 764 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 1: really cool. It's interesting because it ties into the one 765 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: of the largely unacknowledged senses of the human body. Propri 766 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: RECEPTIONE write the sense of where your limbs are in 767 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: space when you're not looking at them. And I got 768 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: up and tried it. I think I'm gonna have to 769 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,720 Speaker 1: do it when I'm not shotgunning so much coffee. Yeah, 770 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,560 Speaker 1: and you know we're recording a podcast, but thank you, Carlton. 771 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 1: We have that now. Now you have that, you the 772 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: listener of this voice, and uh, let's all try it 773 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,160 Speaker 1: together sometime or at least separately, and then come back 774 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, let's try and write to us and let 775 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: us know. Everybody, give everybody, give Carlton's technique a shot 776 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 1: and let us know how it works out for you. 777 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to try it some more later we're off air. 778 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: Our second shout out today comes from Andrew. Andrew says, Hi, guys, 779 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,800 Speaker 1: I think that the I think the conspiracy that the 780 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: Russian version of nine eleven Russian apartment bombings was really 781 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:53,799 Speaker 1: a false flag operation orchestrated by and for Putin. That's 782 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,719 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin to rise to power. And that would make 783 00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,919 Speaker 1: for a really great podcast and a timely when given 784 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: all the talk about Russia and Putin these days. Anyhow, 785 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,760 Speaker 1: keep up the good work that is crazy. By the way, 786 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about this until Andrew wrote to us, 787 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,760 Speaker 1: and I just did some quick searching on the subject 788 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: to see what it was all about. I'd never heard 789 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,800 Speaker 1: of it. It's I think three separate cities that got bombed, 790 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,320 Speaker 1: like four apartment complexes or more, all around the same time, 791 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 1: and it was all blamed on certain groups, and it 792 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 1: started groups. Yeah, and it started the church another checking 793 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: in conflict. And apparently it really it really did help 794 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 1: Rise putin too power or at least somewhat. I yeah, 795 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: we'll have to look into that. Finally, we have a 796 00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:50,279 Speaker 1: shout out from Philippa Philippa. Um either either one of 797 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,560 Speaker 1: those not either one of the two, probably, but I'm 798 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: throwing them both out there just to cover my basis. Um, 799 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,960 Speaker 1: my husband isn't what you'd call psychic, but his gut 800 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: feelings are correct. Well, that's what I would call psychic. 801 00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: But that's pretty cool. Uh. He also has an annoying 802 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: habit of knowing what I'm going to say before I 803 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,920 Speaker 1: say it, even if it's totally off topic, and he 804 00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: can predict who he'll see that day. He works in 805 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 1: a record shop, and if he hasn't seen a regular 806 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 1: customer for a while. He'll usually know before he starts 807 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: work that they will come by that day. He also 808 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,319 Speaker 1: has a ghost who follows him around. Yeah, that's what 809 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,719 Speaker 1: it says here, a ghost who follows him around. And 810 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,960 Speaker 1: numerous people have seen weird stuff happen when they've been 811 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,440 Speaker 1: with him. Well, here's to keeping it, keeping it interesting, 812 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,319 Speaker 1: keeping it fresh and weird in your relationship. Uh. It 813 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: sounds like an interesting guy. And I would love to 814 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: hear more if anyone has clairvoyant partners out there. Um, 815 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:57,160 Speaker 1: much more than just finishing each other's sandwiches. We want 816 00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: to hear about that kind of stuff, because I I 817 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,240 Speaker 1: don't know anyone like that. I often, Um, I think 818 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,640 Speaker 1: I know what my girlfriend's about to say, and uh, 819 00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 1: and and stumble into trying to say it for her, 820 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,280 Speaker 1: and she usually just shoots me a dirty look because 821 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm wrong and it's rude. Yeah, it turns into you 822 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: trying to man splain something exactly her own thoughts. I'm 823 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:23,080 Speaker 1: also interested to know, Philippa Philippa Philippa. I think I'm 824 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,799 Speaker 1: also interested to know if your husband predicted that this 825 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:32,400 Speaker 1: listener mail would be read out loud. Oh, I can 826 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: imagine it right now he wakes up, honey, turned on 827 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:45,000 Speaker 1: the podcast box conspiracy talking about right now this moment. 828 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,279 Speaker 1: That is not what Philip Philippa's husband sounds like. She 829 00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,240 Speaker 1: also but she says she's from rural southwest to England, 830 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,200 Speaker 1: by the way, and she says there was a wart 831 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: charmer in her neighborhood in her town, wart charmer who 832 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,359 Speaker 1: could charm the warts off you. Is that the same 833 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: as charming the pants off you? Exact same thing. That's 834 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 1: a pants charmer, I believe, not to split hairs or 835 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:15,000 Speaker 1: pants or words. Well, this concludes our gosh, and this 836 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:19,280 Speaker 1: concludes our episode today, but not hopefully knock on wood, 837 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,680 Speaker 1: our show itself. We will be back next week. What 838 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: are we covering next week? Do we have a little 839 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,120 Speaker 1: bit of a teaser we could give people? Well, next 840 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: week we're covering delicious, delicious yet deadly deadly sugar m Yes, 841 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 1: you're like, well now at first it's so, it's like, yes, 842 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,680 Speaker 1: it's sickly sweet, and there is a conspiracy afoot, not 843 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,680 Speaker 1: a theory. If you would like to know more, please 844 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,520 Speaker 1: tune in and in the meantime, go easy on the 845 00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,319 Speaker 1: SODA's just in case you don't want anyone to be 846 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 1: listening to a hospital that was a dark way to 847 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: end it. All right, so right to us, we are 848 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:26,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy at how stuff works dot com.