Speaker 1: This is Conversations with Olivia Jade and I heart radio podcast.
Speaker 1: Hi everybody, welcome to my podcast Conversations. I am so
Speaker 1: excited to have this platform, and I honestly couldn't think
Speaker 1: of a better first episode than having an amazing therapist
Speaker 1: on Dr Goldcher. Therapy has helped me so much in
Speaker 1: so many different ways, and I just wanna have this
Speaker 1: platform and this opportunity to maybe help somebody else who
Speaker 1: doesn't have access to a therapist or could really just
Speaker 1: use some advice. And we tried to keep this pretty general.
Speaker 1: I'm really really honored to have her on the podcast,
Speaker 1: and I hope you guys enjoy. So let's just dive
Speaker 1: right into it. Hi, Dr Goldcher, Hi Olivia, how are you.
Speaker 1: I'm good. It's so nice to meet you, So nice
Speaker 1: to meet you. Thank you so much for coming on. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for being brave. This is not easy, and
Speaker 1: so I think it's it's really an amazing milestone in
Speaker 1: your healing process that you're here in this context willing
Speaker 1: to have this really vulnerable conversation. So thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I definitely want to open up today. I
Speaker 1: want to hear, I want to learn a little bit
Speaker 1: too about certain things. And obviously I've done a little
Speaker 1: bit of research on you before coming on here today,
Speaker 1: and um, I think a starting point that is something
Speaker 1: that means a lot to me. And I don't want
Speaker 1: to I'm like nervous to talk about this in general,
Speaker 1: just because I feel like I've just gone through it
Speaker 1: personally myself. So it is a weird thing to talk about,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to upset anybody when I'm talking
Speaker 1: about it or um, but I know you talk about
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, the idea behind cancel culture
Speaker 1: and how it has certain mental health effects on somebody,
Speaker 1: and it's something I'm super fascinated by. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: first of all, maybe you could just tell the listeners
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you do, who you are,
Speaker 1: and then we can kind of jump into that conversation.
Speaker 1: That sounds great. Well, I'm Dr Hillary Culture. I'm a
Speaker 1: licensed clinical psychologist and pre COVID. I operated out of
Speaker 1: my office in Beverly Hills, but now I'm in my
Speaker 1: virtual office out of my home, and I specialized in
Speaker 1: trauma and anxiety and depression and also work with parents
Speaker 1: and kiddos quite a bit as well. I do some
Speaker 1: work on Instagram to kind of um put forth some
Speaker 1: of my ideas and do a lot of media work
Speaker 1: as well, CNN Box podcasts like this one. Um, and
Speaker 1: it's it's really my pleasure to be with you today.
Speaker 1: So that's a little quick summary. Um okay, Well, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's just jump right into it. In general, I think
Speaker 1: that I kind of want to just talk about just
Speaker 1: to start, like, obviously, right now, I think, especially with
Speaker 1: my generation, cancel culture and the bandwagon effect and the
Speaker 1: mob mentality of it is really prevalent, and it's so big,
Speaker 1: and I think it's so much bigger than I'm not
Speaker 1: even just talking about like any of my own personal situations,
Speaker 1: but just in general through kids over zoom in school,
Speaker 1: like being canceled from a classmate behind a screen, And
Speaker 1: I think it's obviously just a huge thing right now,
Speaker 1: and it's something I'm really passionate about because I know,
Speaker 1: you know in the past how it's affected my mental health.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people don't realize the
Speaker 1: effects it actually has. And I want to hear more
Speaker 1: of like a professional and like a scientific kind of
Speaker 1: explanation of that if you're willing to, just so people
Speaker 1: can understand a little bit more, of course, yes. And
Speaker 1: you know, the notion of cancel culture evolved in a
Speaker 1: really intense set of environmental and cultural circumstances right kind
Speaker 1: of on the heels of the Me Too movement and
Speaker 1: all of the black life matters issues and a lot
Speaker 1: of political important issues that came up, and people wanted
Speaker 1: to hold other people accountable. This is not in and
Speaker 1: of itself a bad thing, the idea that we hold
Speaker 1: up issues that don't serve ourselves as individuals, that don't
Speaker 1: serve our society, and we call it out and we
Speaker 1: say we want change. Right. It sort of began as
Speaker 1: a wave of really accountability, but it has evolved into
Speaker 1: cancel culture, which, as most of the listeners know, is
Speaker 1: that some version of really deleting someone from their personal
Speaker 1: and professional stature in the community and um in social media,
Speaker 1: etcetera after a series of or particular mistake. And when
Speaker 1: you ask the question, what happens to a person that's
Speaker 1: at the center of cancel culture, it's such a critical issue.
Speaker 1: It's so important to look at the other side because
Speaker 1: while we can hold a space for holding someone accountable,
Speaker 1: we also have to hold a space for looking at
Speaker 1: what happens to that person on the other side, And
Speaker 1: the answer is it is a traumatic event. It is
Speaker 1: an absolutely traumatic event that can lead to depression, anxiety,
Speaker 1: and sort of a complete disorientation of the self. Right.
Speaker 1: One identifies themselves through certain relationships, through certain markers in
Speaker 1: their lives, and they see themselves through their own eyes
Speaker 1: and how others see them as well, and when those
Speaker 1: things collapse or are eliminated or are disallowed, it's super disorienting.
Speaker 1: And so I've said this before and other contexts, but
Speaker 1: my issue from clinical standpoint and from sort of a
Speaker 1: human being standpoint with cancel culture is that it forecloses
Speaker 1: the most important thing about the issues that are being raised,
Speaker 1: which is an opportunity for learning, for education, and for
Speaker 1: the public at large to witness someone in that process,
Speaker 1: which is invaluable. And so when we have someone like
Speaker 1: you and others that is standing in an error, standing
Speaker 1: and a mistake, is standing in an event which with
Speaker 1: which they have regret or which they could change, and
Speaker 1: we foreclose the opportunity for that dialogue to occur, so
Speaker 1: much is lost, an opportunity for growth, and so much
Speaker 1: as lost for that person at the center of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm so or just personally, I'm
Speaker 1: so hesitant to talk about this, and I think it's
Speaker 1: like I'm so hesitant to talk about it because of
Speaker 1: the trauma that you're kind of talking about it, like
Speaker 1: oh gosh, if I say this or if it comes
Speaker 1: off like kind of the wrong way, am I going
Speaker 1: to get canceled again? Or is this going to be
Speaker 1: a thing? And it really does leave such an impression
Speaker 1: in one's mind, you know, like really I and I again,
Speaker 1: I get so nervous. I feel like I walk on
Speaker 1: eggshells when I talk, just because I don't want to
Speaker 1: say the wrong thing, and I want to make it
Speaker 1: clear to people listening that like I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: victimize myself, but I also I'm trying just from being
Speaker 1: and having this personal experience, Like I really do understand
Speaker 1: like how different of a person I've become because of it,
Speaker 1: and not entirely in a good way. Sometimes, like I
Speaker 1: really do feel like I have way harder days or
Speaker 1: I'm way harder on myself, and I'm so scared of
Speaker 1: like looking at my name and something bad is happening
Speaker 1: and I'm the face of it, and it's gonna be
Speaker 1: like this big thing that blows up in my face again.
Speaker 1: And it's like it's so interesting to me because I
Speaker 1: feel like people who have experienced it, even if it's
Speaker 1: in a different capacity, like you just you live your
Speaker 1: life a little bit a little bit differently in my opinion,
Speaker 1: and you just kind of shut down and you don't
Speaker 1: you almost start to you like kind of start to
Speaker 1: believe what people are telling you, like you don't deserve
Speaker 1: a second chance, and like there is no room for growth,
Speaker 1: and you feel like not to sound super dark, but
Speaker 1: it's like just what how do you bounce back then?
Speaker 1: Because I want to be alive. I still want to
Speaker 1: grow up. I want to you know. But then you
Speaker 1: have people saying like, well, you don't deserve to and
Speaker 1: you should go hide forever, and it's almost just like,
Speaker 1: in kind of a dark way, it's just like don't
Speaker 1: exist anymore basically, which obviously is really hard to hear,
Speaker 1: especially when you're the person being told that. You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's that message of literal annihilation which is really dark
Speaker 1: and really lonely and scary, and I want to help
Speaker 1: you in this moment create a paradigm goes for you
Speaker 1: individually and maybe for the listeners, which is the idea
Speaker 1: that things can co exist. Feelings can co exist, steps
Speaker 1: can coexist, they can live side by side. And how
Speaker 1: this applies to what we're talking about is the idea
Speaker 1: that two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker 1: You can both have deep regret about what transpired. You
Speaker 1: can have um a wish to imagine too, the opportunity
Speaker 1: to do it differently. And at the same time you
Speaker 1: can also have the capacity and the ability and the
Speaker 1: fantasy and the hope to change and grow and to
Speaker 1: use your life to do good in the world and
Speaker 1: to help teach others. These things can be true at
Speaker 1: the same time, and I think for you personally, it's
Speaker 1: one of the things that over time that will probably
Speaker 1: help ground you that you're going to, in my view,
Speaker 1: have to lean into because ultimately, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you're going to have to decide how to
Speaker 1: move forward with all of these things true at the
Speaker 1: same time. Right there, there maybe folks who decide they
Speaker 1: don't forgive you, or decide that to see you thrive,
Speaker 1: um uh, sort of as in violation of the sanctity
Speaker 1: of the errors that you made. Right, But there are
Speaker 1: also going to be a lot of folks who are
Speaker 1: cheering for you, and ultimately you have to decide what
Speaker 1: you want to make of this. And so I think
Speaker 1: for you as you speak about it, as you think
Speaker 1: about it, both publicly and personally, holding those truth for yourself,
Speaker 1: that these things are true at the same time, right,
Speaker 1: And and that in part is in my view, what
Speaker 1: gives you the the right, the courage, the ability to
Speaker 1: move forward. You can both have regret and understanding and
Speaker 1: at the same time want something for yourself. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: just obviously I'm just speaking a little bit about this
Speaker 1: and like my personal life, just because I do feel
Speaker 1: like I understand it to a certain degree, but obviously
Speaker 1: it's so much bigger than just me, and I'd way
Speaker 1: rather talk about other people, like not in maybe the
Speaker 1: public eye, but that are dealing with the same sense
Speaker 1: of bullying and mold mentality. And as a therapist, obviously
Speaker 1: like some advice you could give to them and how
Speaker 1: to get through that and how you get through to
Speaker 1: the other side, and when you are having a really
Speaker 1: bad day, if you have any tips, because I know
Speaker 1: a lot of my viewers on YouTube there constantly in
Speaker 1: my messages, just like how are you getting through this
Speaker 1: rough day? Or and I just feel like, as much
Speaker 1: as I'd love to give advice, I'm not licensed nor professional,
Speaker 1: and so um I think would be really helpful for
Speaker 1: some people to hear it from you. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think one of the most important things. And maybe this
Speaker 1: seems paradoxical to getting through, but in fact it's really
Speaker 1: a requirement is to validate the feelings deeply acknowledge them
Speaker 1: to yourself and if you have safe others to talk about, right,
Speaker 1: is to validate and acknowledge how difficult it is, how
Speaker 1: painful it is, how traumatic it is, how big it
Speaker 1: is to be canceled, to feel bullied, to feel um separated,
Speaker 1: to feel excluded. Right, that is, that is a huge
Speaker 1: trauma for anyone at a public macro level, like you've
Speaker 1: dealt with or someone as you're talking about that's in
Speaker 1: their fifth grade classroom and have you left out of
Speaker 1: a birthday party? Right? The loneness that comes with that,
Speaker 1: the trauma, the anxiety, the fear about what this means
Speaker 1: for the future is devastating. And so just to acknowledge
Speaker 1: that those feelings that are coming up in the face
Speaker 1: of that are normal, are expected, are appropriate, I think
Speaker 1: is really important because we can feel like, oh, we
Speaker 1: want to make those feelings go away, or we shouldn't
Speaker 1: talk about them, or something's wrong with us that we're
Speaker 1: feeling so broken. In the face of it, those kind
Speaker 1: of feelings are normal. It's sort of a primitive edict
Speaker 1: for us to feel connected and included, and when that
Speaker 1: doesn't happen, it's devastating. It's really really hard. So the
Speaker 1: first step is kind of acknowledging, validating, and the second
Speaker 1: step is being able to create a narrative inside of yourself,
Speaker 1: which is a really really tall order of what we're
Speaker 1: feeling traumatized right and we're feeling separate and excluded, but
Speaker 1: we have to decide who we're going to be in
Speaker 1: the face of these kind of challenges. Is how we're
Speaker 1: going to view ourselves, what we're going to say to ourselves,
Speaker 1: what we're gonna say to ourselves about what's happening, and
Speaker 1: so being able to lean into what you know about yourself,
Speaker 1: how you move through the world, the connections you have
Speaker 1: with your friends, with your family, the kindness that you
Speaker 1: show others who you are deeply inside, being able to
Speaker 1: hold onto that narrative because in the end, it's really
Speaker 1: us um that carries the strongest messages about ourselves. Right,
Speaker 1: It's that voice that we have inside of ourselves that
Speaker 1: informs how we move through the day. So being able
Speaker 1: to be extent possible to mobilize what we know about
Speaker 1: ourselves and keep interrupting that self talk even though those
Speaker 1: messages are coming in, even though they're devastating, even though
Speaker 1: they're painful, to keep replacing them with the truth that
Speaker 1: you know about yourself. And I want to pause and
Speaker 1: acknowledge that this is the hardest thing ever. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is this is like kids, teenagers, young adults, grown ups,
Speaker 1: and um senior citizens. We work on this our our
Speaker 1: whole lives. Being able to not live in the projections
Speaker 1: of others, being able to use our own voice to
Speaker 1: replace the ideas of notions and the judgment of others.
Speaker 1: It's really, really, really, really hard, But it's a muscle
Speaker 1: that we have to build. And then we want to
Speaker 1: get into a bunch of self care as we go
Speaker 1: through this like tremendously difficult journey. Right, And so the
Speaker 1: things that make you feel good, whether it's meditation or
Speaker 1: music or taking a bath or connecting with a loved
Speaker 1: one reading a book. It's critical to kind of facilitate
Speaker 1: opportunities to calm our body as we do this deep work.
Speaker 1: And I call it deep work because standing up in
Speaker 1: the face of negative voices is is one of the
Speaker 1: hardest things to do in the whole world. And so
Speaker 1: I don't have advice that makes it go away, but
Speaker 1: I have guidance to help build that part inside of
Speaker 1: yourself that says like I'm I'm I'm good enough. I
Speaker 1: deserve to to to be here. I deserve to live
Speaker 1: a life even if I don't have the approving eyes
Speaker 1: and words of others. I'm enough. Yeah. And I think
Speaker 1: also with with social media and how obviously it's just
Speaker 1: at its peak and everybody's on social media from twelve
Speaker 1: to thirteen year olds, and I feel like that's amplified
Speaker 1: cancel culture in itself. And I guess I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to ask on top of that, maybe like what advice
Speaker 1: could you give, because that the last thing you said,
Speaker 1: I think is super helpful um for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: But with social media, with I feel like so many
Speaker 1: young women and men comparing themselves and feeling like, you know,
Speaker 1: they're not worthy of this or this person's life looks
Speaker 1: so perfect on this platform and then you get really
Speaker 1: down on yourself. And although it's not really having to
Speaker 1: do with cancel culture, I do think it's like another
Speaker 1: little form of maybe trauma is not the right word,
Speaker 1: but just like, I don't know, you could probably phrase
Speaker 1: this way more eloquently than I am, but am I
Speaker 1: kind of making sense that you're understanding what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: Just like, how how to help younger kids through that
Speaker 1: and looking at social media and comparing themselves and feeling
Speaker 1: so down on themselves that it does create a different
Speaker 1: level of depression, And um, yeah, I guess that's kind
Speaker 1: of what my main point is. Your your point is
Speaker 1: a critical one and should be an ongoing discussion that
Speaker 1: we have as parents, as caregivers of children, as teachers,
Speaker 1: and amongst our our our kids and young adults. The
Speaker 1: dynamic you're talking about is devastating for young people, right
Speaker 1: This whole to compare um, what your own life feels
Speaker 1: like relative to what other people's lives look like, and
Speaker 1: the very nature of social media. We can have a
Speaker 1: whole other discussion about this is designed to do just that.
Speaker 1: There's sort of an addictive quality that it pulls for
Speaker 1: right and and we all are susceptible, regardless of your
Speaker 1: age or station in life. So I have a few
Speaker 1: few thoughts. One is pretty practical and perhaps obvious, but
Speaker 1: I think social media breaks are critical. And if our
Speaker 1: parents listening out there to really take the temperature of
Speaker 1: your teens and your young adults that you're still connected
Speaker 1: with or live in your house, and employ social media
Speaker 1: breaks to interrupt this addictive poll to compare, and you
Speaker 1: lift um our sense of self outside of that tunnel
Speaker 1: and um more outside into the world in terms of
Speaker 1: how we move through it and what we do. Um.
Speaker 1: It's a more practical piece of advice, but um, the
Speaker 1: dynamic that kids face is really complex, and so you
Speaker 1: have to continue to build a narrative about yourself right
Speaker 1: and before Actually, I want to step back and say
Speaker 1: this as a as a psychologist, and I work with
Speaker 1: folks in the public eye, and I work with folks
Speaker 1: not in the public eye. And the notion of social
Speaker 1: media and this comparison culture comes up all the time.
Speaker 1: Um for folks that are celebrities and have a lot
Speaker 1: of power and famous, and for folks who sort of
Speaker 1: live a non public life. It is you big? It is.
Speaker 1: It is across the board, And so no matter how
Speaker 1: many followers you have, UM, what your body looks like,
Speaker 1: what your clothes look like, what relationships are in and
Speaker 1: how many friends you have, etcetera. Everyone everyone, And I
Speaker 1: can underscore this looks like a yellow highlighter and it
Speaker 1: feels the same. And I know it's hard to believe if, um,
Speaker 1: you're looking at this hierarchy and see celebrity, and UM,
Speaker 1: folks that look a certain way or project a certain image,
Speaker 1: they have to be at the top of the untill
Speaker 1: health hierarchy. Right, That's the thought that consumers of social
Speaker 1: media think. But I'm here to tell you that that
Speaker 1: is not true. Everyone has the same feelings of insecurity,
Speaker 1: the same fears of not being accepted, the same concerns
Speaker 1: about their acceptability internally externally. It is the same across
Speaker 1: the board. I see it all of the time, and
Speaker 1: so I guess i'd start there that you are not alone.
Speaker 1: Everyone feels these feelings, and it's why it's so critical
Speaker 1: to interrupt your consumption so that you get some relief.
Speaker 1: And then, as I was talking about before, we sort
Speaker 1: of hit this before, but maintaining that narrative about what
Speaker 1: is actually important to you, what actually resonates in your life,
Speaker 1: what actually moves you, What are you here to do?
Speaker 1: What services are you here to provide to those in
Speaker 1: your life? Right, those are the things that help ground
Speaker 1: us over time and so beginning, and you know, if
Speaker 1: you're in fifth grade, that might be might be lofty questions,
Speaker 1: but then the lean of the idea of like who
Speaker 1: am I? What makes me me? That's the most important.
Speaker 1: You know, how do I relate to my friends? One?
Speaker 1: Are the things that I like to do? What are
Speaker 1: the things that I like about myself? It's really critical
Speaker 1: to keep that kind of dynamic dialogue going internally to
Speaker 1: combat these messages that are coming in. And I wish
Speaker 1: I had a a perfect response to this enormous dilemma
Speaker 1: because it absolutely contributes to anxiety and depression in our
Speaker 1: young kids and and and adults as well. And so
Speaker 1: we have to get really active in the face of it.
Speaker 1: We have to get really active about the voices inside
Speaker 1: our mind and interrupting how we talk to ourselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's feeling like this thing is kind of inevitable
Speaker 1: and it's social media is here to stay. And that's
Speaker 1: how it feels like. So I think that's great advice.
Speaker 1: It's really trying to dig deep within yourself to find
Speaker 1: a way to get through it, because it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like right now at this rate, it's you know, really
Speaker 1: going anywhere, and a conversation I feel like I have
Speaker 1: so often with and I'm just curious on your opinion
Speaker 1: of it. But I talked about this with my sister
Speaker 1: a lot, just because I think I was probably one
Speaker 1: of the last like age groups to not grow up
Speaker 1: with social media and Instagram I think was created when
Speaker 1: I was a teenager, so I didn't have that like
Speaker 1: you know, when I was younger, I was playing with
Speaker 1: dolls and I wasn't comparing myself and I at a
Speaker 1: young age, you're not looking at magazine covers and models.
Speaker 1: And now these kids are looking at basically magazine covers
Speaker 1: on their own Instagrams with photos that have been touched,
Speaker 1: and it's just a completely different game for these kids now.
Speaker 1: And I think that something we talked about a lot
Speaker 1: is that is is it appropriate to say maybe social
Speaker 1: media should have an age restriction and would that help
Speaker 1: with mental health in a certain capacity? Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: a million thousand times yes, it would be absolutely my
Speaker 1: clinical professional preference that kids maybe wouldn't get on Instagram
Speaker 1: and social media until sixteen. Yeah, because that's what I
Speaker 1: remember obviously growing up. Now you have kids, like even
Speaker 1: my friends little sisters, who are twelve and thirteen years old,
Speaker 1: and they're looking at these eighteen year olds on social media,
Speaker 1: and I think it's creating a whole lot of problems
Speaker 1: mentally because hey, you're almost seven years, eight years younger
Speaker 1: than a lot of these people you're looking at, So
Speaker 1: you're gonna get to that point eventually in your life.
Speaker 1: You're gonna grow up, You're gonna be mature one day.
Speaker 1: And it's like it's almost I feel like stripping your
Speaker 1: youth a little bit because you're just you want to
Speaker 1: grow up so much faster. And there's a reason when
Speaker 1: we were like my friends and I growing up, when
Speaker 1: you'd watch TV and commercials, the commercials were really catered
Speaker 1: towards children. And now, you know, with the access to
Speaker 1: just see anything, I feel like you're just prone to
Speaker 1: grow up so much more, I guess, just quickly. But
Speaker 1: also I think it does have some you know, really
Speaker 1: hard effects on young girls and guys and mental health
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, I mean it's it's shifting the paradigm
Speaker 1: right under our noses, right that young girls, I think
Speaker 1: in particular, are thinking about their physical appearance, are thinking
Speaker 1: about their bodies, are thinking about their impact on others
Speaker 1: in that regard at such a young age. Yeah, being
Speaker 1: able to interrupt all of the questions and insecurities and
Speaker 1: fears and confusion that comes with those thoughts at that
Speaker 1: age is sort of a crisis in our country right now.
Speaker 1: And and less social media is somehow eliminated, it's really incumbent,
Speaker 1: as I was saying before, on professionals like myself and
Speaker 1: parents and caregivers and teachers and mentors of kids to
Speaker 1: interrupt the narrative that comes along with it. What's wrong
Speaker 1: with me? I'm not good enough. I need to have
Speaker 1: these things in order to be acceptable and to really
Speaker 1: pare down a child's or young adult exposure to that
Speaker 1: because you're You're right, notions and ideas and narratives about
Speaker 1: themselves are getting in their way before that they would
Speaker 1: are used to. Yeah. And it's like it's interesting too
Speaker 1: because I sit here and I am so passionate about this,
Speaker 1: Like I really do believe there needs to be an
Speaker 1: age restriction, especially just seeing you know, like my younger
Speaker 1: cousins or my friends, little sisters or little brothers and um.
Speaker 1: But I think also at the same time, it's so
Speaker 1: hypocritical for me to sit here and say that, because
Speaker 1: then I feel like I'm adding to the problem of being,
Speaker 1: you know, in my twenties on a public platform, posting
Speaker 1: all my best angles and not wanting to show the
Speaker 1: hard moments. And so it's interesting too, It's like, how
Speaker 1: can I be better? But at the same time, I'm
Speaker 1: still human and I want to fit in and I
Speaker 1: want people to think, oh, wow, she has her stuff
Speaker 1: together and oh look at that, like she looks great
Speaker 1: in that, because you want that validation. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there's like a little level of like narcissism that comes
Speaker 1: with social media because you're just feeding off of people's
Speaker 1: um just perception of you. Well, just you saying this
Speaker 1: out loud right now is a very cool beginning to
Speaker 1: that dialogue. Right. This is the very paradox of social
Speaker 1: media and why this addictive quality to it is that
Speaker 1: all of us can have the conversation about the damage
Speaker 1: that it causes or the poll that it has on
Speaker 1: any one of us to present our kind of best sides,
Speaker 1: and yet most of us still are compelled to do
Speaker 1: just that, right, Yeah, you don't want to show off
Speaker 1: the bad at all, And like, even if you know
Speaker 1: this could probably help somebody today, you're so in your
Speaker 1: head and you're I feel like I can speak on
Speaker 1: behalf of a lot of people that are also maybe
Speaker 1: in the same like industry as me or whatever it
Speaker 1: might be. But it's just like, you want to help
Speaker 1: so many people. You don't want to give off this
Speaker 1: fake idea that your life is perfect, but at the
Speaker 1: same time, you're seeking validation from people you look up
Speaker 1: to or you see somebody else on social media that's,
Speaker 1: you know, so to speak, quote unquote a level higher,
Speaker 1: and you want to get to that. And it's just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a vicious cycle because for me personally,
Speaker 1: I want to be able to like preach and help
Speaker 1: those and be like, Okay, life isn't perfect. And if
Speaker 1: you saw that, I had a thousand photos just taken
Speaker 1: of me and two of them looked okay that are
Speaker 1: on my Instagram now and the rest are totally not
Speaker 1: what those ones represent at all. It's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's hard because I want to be helpful, but also
Speaker 1: being a human, you want to be liked and you
Speaker 1: want to feel beautiful and you want to be validated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you think your biggest fears are associated with
Speaker 1: that possibility? You know that if you did present a
Speaker 1: less curated version of yourself in in your social media world,
Speaker 1: what are what are your biggest fears around that? I
Speaker 1: think for me personally, I have such a hard time
Speaker 1: being vulnerable and opening up in general, and I almost
Speaker 1: just feel like maybe if I showed my genuine personality
Speaker 1: and somebody didn't like that, it would hurt so much
Speaker 1: more than somebody seeing this like surface level of me online,
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, you can talk poorly about me
Speaker 1: for that, but like, thank god I didn't really actually
Speaker 1: put my all into that or really show who I
Speaker 1: am at my core, because I'm so afraid people won't
Speaker 1: like it, which, in turn, I feel like would hurts
Speaker 1: so much more than somebody not liking this perfect version
Speaker 1: of me, because I know that's not true. You know, Yes,
Speaker 1: So it's sort of a protective shell and it's total
Speaker 1: defense mechanism of just like okay, well, well what it
Speaker 1: feels like is that there's only a certain level of
Speaker 1: damage or hurt or pain that can be caused because
Speaker 1: of these boundaries you have in place. But I would
Speaker 1: offer this this possibility we can think about together, which
Speaker 1: is that ultimately, um, there's some there's some internal damage
Speaker 1: that that potentially takes place in this scenario. Right if
Speaker 1: there's a part of you that has this poll to
Speaker 1: like show up in a more authentic, messy, perfect way,
Speaker 1: because perhaps that's part of your calling, that's part of
Speaker 1: what you're meant to do here, right, Um, but you're
Speaker 1: limited by these fears of being unaccepted. Um for who
Speaker 1: you sort of truly are. There's kind of a gap
Speaker 1: but what we call and there will be like a
Speaker 1: cognitive dissidence between who you really are inside and sort
Speaker 1: of what you're putting out there, and that can cause
Speaker 1: a kind of anxiety that can cause a sort of
Speaker 1: lack of groundedness or a little bit of disorientation. And
Speaker 1: I would argue that although it's true, I think you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right that if you put more authentic images, more
Speaker 1: slices of yourself that are more vulnerable, more imperfect, and
Speaker 1: they were rejected, that it would hurt in a different
Speaker 1: way I think. I think that's right. It makes sense
Speaker 1: to me. It's it's more vulnerable, it's more real, and
Speaker 1: it feels like people are commenting on something that that
Speaker 1: is straight from the heart. You know, that's part of
Speaker 1: your soul, your spirit, but none Nonetheless, there's a way
Speaker 1: in which then you still get to stand more fully
Speaker 1: kind of in who you are, right And I think
Speaker 1: that ultimately gives us a place of greater empowerment. When
Speaker 1: there's less of a gap between we are inside and
Speaker 1: how we move through the world, we are better poised
Speaker 1: to stand um in the face of that kind of rejection. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. It's tough, easier said than done,
Speaker 1: though you know doubt it's easier said than that than done.
Speaker 1: It would be a huge emotional risk, yeah, that, and
Speaker 1: it would require you maybe to um uh, maybe there's
Speaker 1: a part of you that tends to exile that imperfect
Speaker 1: parts of you, the messy parts of you, the chaotic
Speaker 1: parts of you. Right, it would require you to bring
Speaker 1: that a bit closer, and I think in the end
Speaker 1: it would develop a much stronger sense of self. But
Speaker 1: in the short run, is that you like getting comfortable
Speaker 1: and just the idea of it, it would be really uncomfortable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And speaking of that sort of I feel like on
Speaker 1: the topic of wanting people to like you and then
Speaker 1: also wanting to show a different set of yourself, and
Speaker 1: then I think there's also a part of it where
Speaker 1: for anybody, I feel like, in any situation, big or small,
Speaker 1: I just kind of want to hear your perspective on
Speaker 1: self forgiveness and like not being so especially as you're
Speaker 1: growing up and you're still so young. If we have
Speaker 1: young listeners right now, like if you have a little
Speaker 1: bit of guilt, and it can be on a big
Speaker 1: scale or a really small scale, but how you just
Speaker 1: come to and like not absolutely beat yourself up for
Speaker 1: a mistake. I think would be helpful to hear about.
Speaker 1: It's such an important ongoing life skill to adapt this
Speaker 1: notion of accepting oneself as good enough, yeah, right, accepting
Speaker 1: oneself as being a human being that will make mistakes,
Speaker 1: have moments of weakness show up in ways that we
Speaker 1: won't feel good about. That isn't just a young person's thing.
Speaker 1: That's a human being thing, and we have to develop
Speaker 1: a relationship with that truth over time in the name
Speaker 1: of our mental health and in the name of being
Speaker 1: able to continue to grow and to cultivate healthy relationships
Speaker 1: with people that would love, with partners, with kids, etcetera.
Speaker 1: So to kind of break that down, um starting with
Speaker 1: that paradigm, the idea that like, we are all going
Speaker 1: to make mistakes, We're all going to show up in
Speaker 1: ways that we don't feel good about. Feelings like anger
Speaker 1: or jealousy or frustration or sadness or ego which isn't
Speaker 1: really a feeling the state of being right, are are
Speaker 1: going to enter our lives and at times we're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to get ahead of it, and
Speaker 1: being able to recognize that that's part of the experience
Speaker 1: of being human is a beginning. And the second part
Speaker 1: I is being able to make amends. I think oftentimes
Speaker 1: in the face of us showing up in ways that
Speaker 1: we don't feel good about, we shut down, We suppressed,
Speaker 1: we don't want to space right, we avoid, we deny,
Speaker 1: we just mess who you're raising up your finger? Right?
Speaker 1: And this isn't because we don't care. It's because we've
Speaker 1: become so overwhelmed, we're sort of paralyzed with fear and
Speaker 1: we can't act. And this happens across the board. I
Speaker 1: see this with young people, and I see this with
Speaker 1: folks who are you know, well into their seventies. Right.
Speaker 1: It's a defense mechanism UM to not stand in the
Speaker 1: damage that we've caused, to not stand um in in
Speaker 1: the discomfort of recognizing parts of ourselves that we don't
Speaker 1: feel good about. This, to me is the most critical
Speaker 1: step is to sort of take the risk to stand
Speaker 1: in it, you know, to take the risk to stand
Speaker 1: in it first by ourselves, to really say out loud
Speaker 1: to ourselves or a therapy situation to our best friend
Speaker 1: with a trusted safe other, to being being able to
Speaker 1: say this happened. I don't feel good about it. I
Speaker 1: showed up in a way that I don't like. I
Speaker 1: I I wish I had done it differently. I regret it.
Speaker 1: And being able to just stand in that truth instead
Speaker 1: of ignoring it dismissing it ross over is the first
Speaker 1: step in healing. And then I was I was talking
Speaker 1: about making amends, being able to go to the person
Speaker 1: or the persons that were affected and saying I didn't
Speaker 1: like what I said back there. I didn't feel good
Speaker 1: about it. I shut up in a way that that
Speaker 1: I don't like and I was angry, I was sad,
Speaker 1: I was depressed, I was jealous, right, And it's not
Speaker 1: an excuse what that's what happened. I'm gonna be working
Speaker 1: on that and trying to and trying to do better
Speaker 1: next time. And in a way it sounds simple, um,
Speaker 1: but I think people would be surprised how often folks
Speaker 1: don't do that, don't lean into what happened, and can't find,
Speaker 1: um the words or the strength to say those things
Speaker 1: out loud. It's not that it's not hard. It's so
Speaker 1: so so hard, but we need to work really hard
Speaker 1: to kind of interrupt those tendencies to just shut down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think for me it's like I relate to
Speaker 1: that too, and different level of just being so hard
Speaker 1: on myself and just speaking to myself in such a
Speaker 1: negative way because of making a mistake so publicly. I
Speaker 1: think it's hard growing up and just in general making
Speaker 1: mistakes privately in the comfort of your own home with
Speaker 1: your family and friends to get you through things. And
Speaker 1: then I think when you mess up in the public
Speaker 1: eye and you have millions of people and every day
Speaker 1: there's an article coming out about you that says this
Speaker 1: or this, isn't true, but now everybody believes it, and
Speaker 1: is there even a point in trying to clear up
Speaker 1: that rumor because people already hate me anyway, so like
Speaker 1: why should I forgive myself? And it gets like, just
Speaker 1: for speaking from experience, it's like really challenging to It's
Speaker 1: just yeah, I think it's just really challenging for me
Speaker 1: personally to let go of so much guilt. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: one of my favorite exercises. And I wonder how this
Speaker 1: will resonate and and maybe less so for younger people.
Speaker 1: But it is to think of about what you would
Speaker 1: say to your your own daughter or to your little sister.
Speaker 1: Right made a mistake and made it publicly. The message
Speaker 1: that you would give wouldn't be some version of like
Speaker 1: you need to you need to to stay in the
Speaker 1: depth of that mistake. You need to feel bad for
Speaker 1: as long as you can. You need to never forgive yourself.
Speaker 1: And we wouldn't say that, We would say some persion
Speaker 1: of like, it's okay, it's okay to to to to
Speaker 1: show up in a way that you didn't feel good about.
Speaker 1: It's okay that you didn't know then what you know now.
Speaker 1: It's okay that you're a learning, growing, thinking, feeling, evolving
Speaker 1: human being, and it's okay to carve out a path
Speaker 1: to do better. We would say that to our little sister,
Speaker 1: we would say that to our daughter. We have to
Speaker 1: adopt that narrative for ourselves. It doesn't exclude us, it
Speaker 1: must include us. And and there's no doubt, I mean,
Speaker 1: I really wanted to to lean into what you were
Speaker 1: talking about making a mistake in such a public fashion,
Speaker 1: and I know you're a low to hold yourself up
Speaker 1: as a victim or someone that's suffering. That isn't what
Speaker 1: you've said at all, and I really want to highlight that.
Speaker 1: But there is a certain grief, and we already use
Speaker 1: the word trauma that comes with making a mistake in
Speaker 1: a public setting and having this kind of feedback, this
Speaker 1: kind of dialogue about it for months and years thereafter.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of grief that comes with it. You've
Speaker 1: lost something, you've lost a certain kind of piece, you've
Speaker 1: lost a certain kind of contentment, and a certain kind
Speaker 1: of clarity in the aftermath of that. And so part
Speaker 1: of I think your task, or anyone that's been in
Speaker 1: a situation like that, is to mobilize a new narrative, right,
Speaker 1: is to mobilize a new paradigm. So who am I
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of this? Because this can't delete this,
Speaker 1: this is always going to be true, right, And so
Speaker 1: deciding and I know this is part of how you're
Speaker 1: kind climbing out of where you've been, that it is
Speaker 1: okay to have not been able to do better when
Speaker 1: you didn't know better, and that it is incumbent upon
Speaker 1: you now to do better when you do know better.
Speaker 1: That's part of the evolution of being human. And we
Speaker 1: all are doing really well if we consider ourselves to
Speaker 1: be on that path. I think also, that's just so
Speaker 1: for just my certain situation, Like that's so hard for
Speaker 1: me to get to that point of like it's okay, Olivia,
Speaker 1: Like you you didn't know back then, and then you
Speaker 1: obviously have so many people online being like you should
Speaker 1: have known, you should have done better, this shouldn't have
Speaker 1: happened in the first place, Like, and then you have
Speaker 1: people telling you like, well, clearly you haven't learned anything still,
Speaker 1: and it's it's hard when you're in the actual position
Speaker 1: and you it's like what do you have, Hey, you
Speaker 1: don't know me, how do you know that? And be
Speaker 1: I would be crazy to not have learned anything from
Speaker 1: this situation of just constant like guilt and stress that
Speaker 1: I've given to myself and waking up every day for
Speaker 1: almost two years straight and seeing something written about you
Speaker 1: or and I'm not saying this to throw myself a
Speaker 1: little pity party, because I also think it's circumstantial. Obviously
Speaker 1: we really messed up. I don't want that to be
Speaker 1: taken out of context, but just speaking as a human,
Speaker 1: just with my own mental it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's just so much harder for me to be like
Speaker 1: forgiving of myself because I feel so unforgiven by what
Speaker 1: feels like the entire world to me is just like
Speaker 1: everybody hates me. Yes, I deeply hear that, And it
Speaker 1: presents a unique and super painful challenge because your task
Speaker 1: is ultimately going to be being able to divide out
Speaker 1: a space for your own voice, for your own ideas
Speaker 1: about what forgiveness looks like, from what part of you
Speaker 1: it comes from, and the road that you're going to
Speaker 1: get on moving forward, and that is going to have
Speaker 1: to be separate from the voices and the feedback of others.
Speaker 1: And I am deeply acknowledging how difficult and painful that is.
Speaker 1: Any one of us would be impacted by that kind
Speaker 1: of energy coming our way, But nonetheless, in the face
Speaker 1: of it, we have to decide that we are we
Speaker 1: want to use the word deserving. That what you were
Speaker 1: just saying before really resonated with me. How you were
Speaker 1: talking about h the idea that people are saying to you,
Speaker 1: what but but you shouldn't known better, you should have
Speaker 1: known better? And you are you are agreeing with it.
Speaker 1: You are affirming that truth. Right, You're agree that you
Speaker 1: you wish you had known better, you should have known better.
Speaker 1: That's part of the uh. Um, the journey here, that's
Speaker 1: part of the reconciliation is the recognition that you couldn't,
Speaker 1: you didn't and uh, the enlightenment that came after the fact,
Speaker 1: that that's part of the pain that you felt and
Speaker 1: that others are ascribing to you. Right, that's that's part
Speaker 1: of what you're acknowledging and part of what we're living with.
Speaker 1: And I think, um, there is UM. I don't want
Speaker 1: to put this. There's a way in which that people
Speaker 1: that consume situations like yours, right, who consume it, read
Speaker 1: about it, comment about it think about it. UM. While
Speaker 1: many of them have their own appropriate emotional opinions, uh,
Speaker 1: some of them also are projecting their own pain, their
Speaker 1: own confusion, their own ideas onto your yours and other
Speaker 1: situations right UM that uh, their own trauma, their own disenfranchisement,
Speaker 1: their own anxieties and fears that occur in their own
Speaker 1: life make it difficult to stift through your journey and
Speaker 1: to uh get on board with um your evolution. And
Speaker 1: it's just something to remember. It's not meant as a
Speaker 1: UM a way to disparage anyone who thinks about the
Speaker 1: situation has commented on it. There's just a lot of
Speaker 1: projection happening. There's a lot of emotion that has come
Speaker 1: with this situation, and some of it is about what happened,
Speaker 1: and some of it is about the folks that are
Speaker 1: consuming this information. So all of this to say, you
Speaker 1: can't forever live in other people's projections. It will it will, um,
Speaker 1: it will leave you sort of forever victimized if that's
Speaker 1: the case. And how in honestly, this is just a
Speaker 1: personal question, but with trauma, like how do you start
Speaker 1: to move forward from that and not let it dictate
Speaker 1: your future? And I guess just just not be so
Speaker 1: hard on yourself. But are there certain steps you take
Speaker 1: besides just you know, recognizing like, Okay, I know my truth,
Speaker 1: I know who I am as a human. Like it's
Speaker 1: time to just you know, start to let go and
Speaker 1: try your best to move forward and to do better.
Speaker 1: But maybe for somebody that didn't make a specific mistake
Speaker 1: but just has uh some sort of guilt or trauma
Speaker 1: in their life and they're beating themselves up every day
Speaker 1: and they're in this hole so so deep, and they
Speaker 1: don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet,
Speaker 1: and they don't see a great future ahead of them,
Speaker 1: and they kind of feel like their whole world is
Speaker 1: crashing down on them. Like what type of advice would
Speaker 1: you give somebody who's going through something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I'd be remist if I didn't say, And maybe
Speaker 1: this is obvious, but that if someone is suffering in
Speaker 1: that way so persistently, so protically seeking outside help, is
Speaker 1: is really important that that that's a really important thing
Speaker 1: that I encourage And hopefully the stigma associated with mental
Speaker 1: health intervention is much less um and so that would
Speaker 1: be the first line of defense. I would absolutely encourage.
Speaker 1: But in terms of what we can do moment to moment,
Speaker 1: day by day, a really important concept I like to
Speaker 1: talk about is kind of the interruption of neural pathways
Speaker 1: UM that repeat UM and elongate and prolonged trauma. And
Speaker 1: this is what I mean. So when you, for example, UM,
Speaker 1: and I can extend it out to other folks as well,
Speaker 1: But when you read a comment online or something, you
Speaker 1: have a neural pathway that goes from UM, you don't
Speaker 1: deserve to be forgiven. Maybe that's the comment all the
Speaker 1: way to like I'm a bad person, I'm not worthy. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm bad, I'm wrong. Right, there's like sort of
Speaker 1: an automatic thing that takes place in your brain. It's
Speaker 1: so well traveled at this point that a stimuli like
Speaker 1: a comment on your Instagram or an article takes you
Speaker 1: all the way to that really bad place without thought.
Speaker 1: It almost happens involuntarily, and all of a sudden you're
Speaker 1: in this anxious, depressed place. And so we want to
Speaker 1: get to the point where we build muscle to interrupt
Speaker 1: that well traveled neural pathway that like stimulus boom, we're
Speaker 1: all the way to like I'm not worthy, I'm not Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not deserving. This is going to be my life forever,
Speaker 1: and so doing a version of um when you read
Speaker 1: that comment, when you see that article, or I'm taking
Speaker 1: it outside of your context, when uh, someone's excluded at school, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Right noticing if you go all the way there, if
Speaker 1: you're about to go all the way to there, to
Speaker 1: sort of say like stop, like literally, I'd like to
Speaker 1: recommend like picturing like a red stops. I'm like, stop stop.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to allow myself to go all the
Speaker 1: way there. I'm gonna interrupt with another dialogue, with another narrative.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this other dialogue or other narrative
Speaker 1: will magically change everything in that moment, but what it
Speaker 1: does do is it reduces the hold of that neural
Speaker 1: pathway to go all the way from the stimuli to
Speaker 1: the really bad, awful thought that we feel like we
Speaker 1: can't get out of. It reduces the hole that it
Speaker 1: had that our brain has on us, so that over time,
Speaker 1: little by little, we start chipping away that automatic process
Speaker 1: that always leaves us in the same hopeless, helpless space.
Speaker 1: So being able in your examples that interrupt and go
Speaker 1: like wait a minute, Like I I've decided to to
Speaker 1: think about this differently. I've decided that I'm human being
Speaker 1: that has a chance. I'm not going to make that
Speaker 1: that evaluation, that assessment about myself in this moment. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to take it all the way there. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna say, like, that's painful, that hurts, kind of
Speaker 1: gonna leave it there. For example, it's just a way
Speaker 1: of interrupting that process that brings us all the way
Speaker 1: to that conclusion without even recognizing it, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, we're in a bad space. We have a
Speaker 1: lot of bad negative self talk, and we kind of
Speaker 1: don't even know how or why. And so instead pulling
Speaker 1: back and focusing on the feeling this felt really hurtful,
Speaker 1: This felt really out of control, This felt really upsetting,
Speaker 1: This felt really anxiety provoking. Right, the feeling that came
Speaker 1: up in reading that article or reading that circumstance, we
Speaker 1: are reading that comment rather than going all the way
Speaker 1: to that conclusion about yourself. Um yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: amazing advice for I mean, who is E really listening
Speaker 1: to this? No matter how old you are, I think
Speaker 1: there's something really valuable in that um lesson in general.
Speaker 1: So I think let's end on that positive note and
Speaker 1: a huge, huge thank you too for coming on Conversations
Speaker 1: today and spitting all your wisdom and I'm sure helping
Speaker 1: so many people because I know through social media, especially
Speaker 1: especially with my generation, we all struggle with this to
Speaker 1: a certain degree. So it was an honor to have you.
Speaker 1: And yeah, just thank you for your service and your
Speaker 1: work and helping others and keeping people's mentals and check
Speaker 1: because I know it is so important. So you're very
Speaker 1: very appreciated. Well, thank you for being so candid and vulnerable.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thank you so so much. I
Speaker 1: am so excited we did it. My first podcast checked
Speaker 1: off the list. I am really looking forward to the
Speaker 1: future podcast. I'm going to have so many different guests
Speaker 1: from some celebrities you know, to friends, to mentors to
Speaker 1: experts in certain us to help us through life in general.
Speaker 1: So thank you guys so much for listening, and please
Speaker 1: make sure to tweet me, DM me, just contact me
Speaker 1: through social media so I can hear what else you
Speaker 1: guys want to see on this podcast and what you
Speaker 1: guys want to listen to. And I just want to
Speaker 1: make this a safe space. For everybody, so cheers to
Speaker 1: the first one being done and too many more amazing
Speaker 1: recordings