WEBVTT - What Self-Help Gets Wrong: with Gretchen Rubin 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:41.440 the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, my beautiful people. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.839 I hope you're having a great week. I'm in New 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.400 York and having a hard time believing it's already Thursday. 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:49.360 I don't know if you feel this, but when I 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.760 travel for work, it's like the days all just get 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.480 mushed up together. But I'm here for a reason, and 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.600 actually you're a part of it. So I post it 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.920 on in Instagram, a talking circle that I threw at 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.160 Gloria Steinem's house in her living room where the talking 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.520 circles are, and we did it on Masculinity and I 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:11.880 got a bunch of comments and dms saying I can't 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.160 wait for this episode, and sadly we were not able 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.640 to record it. It's not an episode, but you did 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.759 give me an idea. So I have something very special 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.360 coming for you, something you know. I can't say this often, 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.959 but it's something that only I can give you. Nobody 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.280 else could do it. So that is coming on the 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:36.440 first Thursday of March, which is Women's month. You can 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.840 probably guess what it is, but it's coming. So I'm 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.080 very excited for that. So with that, we'll get into 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:50.280 today's episode. Have you noticed that everywhere you turn, someone 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.800 is telling you how to live your life. It's kind 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.400 of exhausting. We live in a world flooded with tips 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.800 and hacks in self improvement strategies, track your sleep, optimize 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.800 your mornings, habit stack everybody. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:03.680 You know. 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.200 There's a popular theory that if all this advice really worked, 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.640 why are so many of us still exhausted, overwhelmed, and 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.760 unsure what actually makes a good life. I'm actually so 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.000 mindful of that on this podcast because I do want 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:20.280 every episode to improve all of our lives, and I 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:24.360 don't ever want to pretend that one hack can do it. 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.760 And our guest today solves for this. Okay. She is 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.840 a best selling author, podcaster, and happiness expert, and she 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.560 does not subscribe to that theory. Gretchen Rubin says modern 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:38.960 self help is not the one size fits all approach 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.040 that the Internet wants you to think it is. 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.800 Sometimes people really try to jam themselves into someone else's model, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.919 or they insist that everybody should fit in the model 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.120 that they're advocating. In my observation, that's just not the case. 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.000 I think maybe when you hear Gretchen's title Happiness Researcher, 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.720 you might make the assumption that she wants us to 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.720 only live in a zone of bliss, that we should 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.200 find a way to shield life's painful moments and then 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.480 we'll be doing it right. And that's simply not true. 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.400 She's reframed what living a happy life means for an 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.520 entire generation. Spoiler alert, Avoiding the messy moments doesn't really 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:16.600 make us any happier. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.200 Sometimes to live up to our values, we have to 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.040 do something that's really unpleasant, or ask ourselves to do 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.080 something we don't want to do, or deprive ourselves as 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:30.000 something that we want, but that makes our life happier overall, 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.680 even though it maybe isn't what makes us feel good 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:33.320 in the moment. 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.280 It might not surprise you that Gretchen, with all of 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.640 her understanding of happiness is really good at giving advice. 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.520 It's probably why she and her longtime friend, therapist Laurie Gottlieb, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.240 started a podcast called Since You Asked. But she's not 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.640 here today to preach. Instead, she's here to help you 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:55.000 look inward, to find your own internal wisdom, to cut 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.680 through the noise on our path to self improvement. Because, 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.400 as always on our never ending search for answers, we 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.120 are met with even more to question. Today, it's time 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:12.920 to question everything with Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen, you are a 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.680 best selling author, an award winning podcaster, and one of 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.480 today's most trusted voices on human nature. You and your 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.839 work have helped millions of people examine how they live 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.680 and why. The why is the part that I love 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.240 so much. A lot of people don't know this, but 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:33.320 you started your career clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.600 Dae O'Connor. Then you left, became a writer for ten 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.880 years and started studying happiness. What was the question you 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.760 couldn't stop asking yourself that made you walk away from 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.000 so much of this certainty and this career that you 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.440 had spent time becoming great at. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.000 Well, You know, there was a very specific question that 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.200 I asked myself. And I was clerking for Sandraday O'Connor 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.719 and I went for a walk on a beautiful October 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.400 day and I was looking up at the Capital Dome 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.839 and I thought, what am I interested in that everybody 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.000 else in the world is interested, Like, what is the 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.280 most interesting subject? Like I often asked myself rhetorical questions 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:14.960 like that, and I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.880 And it was like, power, money, fame, sex was this 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.640 single subject and I just became intensely focused on researching 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.440 and writing about it, which is something that had happened 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:26.400 to me my whole life. Will get intensely interested in 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.480 something and do a lot of research. But with this 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.600 it grew and I was spending all my time reading 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.640 and taking notes. And then finally it occurred to me, 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:34.200 this is the kind of thing a person would do 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.440 if they were going to write a book. Maybe I 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.000 could write a book. So then I went to the 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:39.719 bookstore and got a book called something like How to 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.920 Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal, and I followed 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.880 the directions and that became my first published book, was 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.480 called Power, Money, Fame, Sex. The user's guide. That all 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.640 makes it sound much easier than it actually was. But 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.480 that was the question that got me started on the 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:54.640 path from law to writing. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.320 One of my favorite quotes about happiness is from Eleanor Roosevelt. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.960 She says, happiness is not a goal, it's a byproduct. 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.320 That's the whole school of thought. Yes. 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.240 So when you say school of thought, you don't agree. 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:08.200 No, And it's like, who's on the other side, It's 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:10.279 like John Stuart Mill, you know who am I to 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.000 disagree with these illuminaries? But I mean because the way 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:14.680 it's often framed to me is like, look, I don't 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:16.440 care about living a happy life. I want to live 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.640 a life rich with relationships and full of meaning and purpose. 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.000 And I'm like, what do you think having a happy 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.919 life would look like. I think that actually it's a 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.440 byproduct and it's an ame. I think the aim and 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.440 the by product are the same thing. So to me 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.640 that choice doesn't really resonate. But there are many people 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.279 who do frame it in that way. I must say, Oh. 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.000 That's interesting. I like that. So you don't feel like 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.760 happiness is a symptom. You do feel like it can 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:45.960 be the goal. 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.320 It's a symptom and an aame. It can be both. 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:49.800 But I think that a lot of times when I 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:51.640 say to people like, Okay, well you don't aim to 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.440 be happy, what do you aim for? They describe what 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.719 I would say as a happy life. It's actually a 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.359 very serious question because some people think that, like, well, 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.640 it's really morally and appropriate for me to seek to 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.719 be happier, that in a world so full of suffering, 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.680 it's not morally appropriate to try to work on my 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.080 own personal happiness. Or I basically have all of everything 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.400 a person should ask of life, and so if I 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.600 want to be happier, I must be a spoiled brat. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:19.880 But in fact, with the research shows, and I think 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:21.600 if you think about the people in your own life, 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:25.360 you see that actually, happier people are more interested in 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:27.600 the problems of the world around them, and they're more 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:31.560 interested in trying to help. Happier people have better habits. 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:34.160 They are more likely to donate their time and their money. 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.200 They're more likely to help out if a friend or 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.120 a family member, or a colleague or a neighbor needs 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.440 a hand. They are more tolerant, they have more perspective, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.320 they're more resilient, they're better able to be good leaders 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.880 and better team members, Like there's an energy that comes 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.040 from it. And then when we're less happy, you know, 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.800 it's easy to become defensive and isolated and preoccupied with 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.480 our own problems because we're not very happy. So if 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.360 it is selfish to want to be happier, we should 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.880 be selfish, if only for selfless reasons. I think a 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.760 lot of times people want to say, like, well, I'm 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:06.640 not going to be selfish and worry about my own happiness. 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:08.440 I'm going to think about the world and other people. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:09.920 But in fact that's a false choice. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.640 You're striking something in me because I interviewed a woman 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:16.520 that I really admire her, both personally and professionally. There's 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:18.600 not a lot of people I'm going to be honest 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.600 that I've interviewed, that I get to know up close 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.240 whose lives look really good to me. I usually feel 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.440 like there's something that isn't for me, and that's okay, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.880 it's for them. She's one of the people I really 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.720 feel like she figured out the matrix for me. And 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.120 she said to me at lunch one day, Danielle, you're 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.120 going to have to make a choice. You're going to 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.719 have to decide if you want to be happy or 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.360 you want to be fulfilled. I couldn't stop thinking about 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.040 it for years because I thought about what you said. 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.560 I don't even know what that means. Well. 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.960 I think she meant that a life of fulfillment is 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.880 a life of sometimes sacrifice, sometimes frustration. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.120 And is a happy life a life with no Is 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:56.920 that what it means to be happy? I don't think 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.080 that is what most people think a happy life would be. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.280 Please expand because I like what you're saying. 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.720 What do you think she meant you chose a happy life? 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.559 What do you think that she thought you would choose? 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.840 I think happy to her and maybe some other people 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.520 feels almost hedonistic, like the seeking of self pleasure sort 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.680 of flippant, like the happy choice is the easy choice 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.480 versus the long and hard and arduous road that is 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.199 maybe more fulfilling later. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:23.160 I think that that's a very shallow way to look 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:24.480 at it, because I think if you said to one 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.680 of those people, do you think that a person who 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.480 just sits on the beach always indulges in their most 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.319 fleeting desires? Do you think that they will be experiencing 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.680 a happy life? I think they would say no, probably not, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.120 that wouldn't be a very good life. Like I don't 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.480 think that anybody actually thinks that sitting by the beach 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.240 all the time is a happy life now the way 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.360 that I frame it for myself and kind of maybe 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.240 to the same point that she's making, but I just 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.440 do it in my own way. But we're actually agreeing 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.720 is happiness doesn't always make us feel happy. Sometimes to 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.320 live up to our values, we have to do something 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.560 that's really impla or ask ourselves to do something we 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.560 don't want to do, or deprive ourselves as something that 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.560 we want. But that makes our life happier overall, even 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.040 though it maybe isn't what makes us feel good in 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.760 the moment. But is that a happy life? But I 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.600 have to say, here's the thing, as you pointed out, 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:18.680 I started out my career in law, and in law 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.880 you spent an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.480 To me, it's a very sterile exercise to argue over definitions, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.200 because I just think that's something you can do. The 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:28.640 more you scratch, the more you itch. 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.800 That's really funny. She was a lawyer as well. I 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:33.920 think this is so fascinating. 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.800 But what I would say is, whatever you want, how 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.320 do you have more of it? If what you want 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.480 is fulfillment, excellent today, next week, next month, next year, 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.280 what can you do to have more fulfillment? If you 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.040 want to be happy excellent today, next week, next month, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.000 next year, what can you do to be happy? We 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.640 don't have to agree on the term serenity, joy, bliss, contentment, 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.760 well being, life, satisfaction. Choose your own term. 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.280 Everybody has a different set of values, so does living 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.920 in your values create happiness? Happiness is different for different people. 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.360 One thousand percent. And I think that you just articulated 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.160 something that so many people get wrong and don't understand. 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:10.760 They think that there's a one size fits all solution, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.160 and they think that somebody can just hand you like 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.320 a one pager with some bullet points. But you have 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:18.680 a different set of values. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.360 I guess that gets us to your point about habits, 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.760 which I don't know that I've spent enough time looking into, 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.640 because you said they're the invisible architecture of our days. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.760 And I think my creative tendencies and maybe my anti 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.880 hack culture have had me not focusing on habits enough. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.920 What is a habit that you've seen change a person's 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.240 life in a big way. Is there something that we 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.200 resist that actually would make us happier? 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.560 Yes, And it's so basic, it's so boring. Everybody knows this. 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.160 It's getting enough sleep. Everything is easier when you're well rested. 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.880 But it's very easy to just stay up too late. 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.720 It's very easy to live a life which makes it 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.480 hard to fall asleep and stay asleep. May be fighting 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.800 against your chronotype because really, like forty percent of people 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.440 are mourning people, about thirty percent of people are true 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.640 night people, and then other people are kind of in 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.880 the middle. Something that's largely genetically determined, and it's also 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.240 a function of age. So if you're really a night person, 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.560 some night people can really shape their lives to suit that. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.760 And I really encourage people if you are a night person, 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.960 really do try to do what you can to mold 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.800 your schedule around your natural chronotype. But sometimes you can't, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:30.679 Like sometimes you have a baby that gets up at 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:32.680 five am, and you can't just say like, I'm sorry, 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:35.040 I'm not really at my best until ten, and so 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.480 the world kind of can make that hard. But I 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.400 mean doing what is within our power, certainly, like not 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.360 binge watching late into the night. People often think like, 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.079 I'm wide awake, But that's because we've sort of artificially 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:51.000 jacked ourselves up on like binge TV or work email, 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.320 and so we're artificially alert. Whereas if you were, you know, 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:56.840 reading a nineteenth century novel in bed, you would have 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.640 been asleep an hour ago. But everything is easier when 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.000 you're rested. Everything else that you will ask of yourself 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.200 is going to be easier if you are well rested. 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.079 And what research shows is that a lot of people 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.160 are chronically underslept and they don't even know it. We 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.079 adjust to it. We don't realize how impaired we are. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.920 But when scientists study people, they see that they are 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.920 quite impaired, and so it's really something we're thinking about it. 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.520 But on the other hand, don't make yourself bonkers. I 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.920 think a lot of that you mentioned kind of hat culture. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.640 One of the things research is showing is that focusing 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.000 too much on tracking your sleep, like paying attention to 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.680 every minute and you know, oh your ram cycle and 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:36.559 oh I got to do this and got to do that, 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.280 that can be counterproductive. So you got to be careful 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:44.120 of studying it so much. That you sort of trip 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.120 over your own feet. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:46.960 That makes a lot of sense. I had a friend 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.440 who struggled with insomnia, and I learned that at the 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.640 crux of insomnia is thinking about not sleeping. So it 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.560 is sort of this double edged sword almost. So you 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.600 have so many titles. You added a new one recently. 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.040 It's co host of the podcast since you asked, which 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.079 you're hosting with therapist Lori Gottlieb. I was so excited 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.480 to learn that you guys went to college together. How 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.120 special and fun is that? And how did that happen? 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.280 Like two great minds. Were you guys friends in college? 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.720 Not really, No, we weren't actually friends in college. Then 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.040 of course later on when we connected again, it was 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.600 like this bond that we shared. Yeah, so yeah, it's 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:24.280 super fun. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:24.680 Right. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.120 You never know, like how things are going to turn 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:28.960 out in the future. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.720 Yeah, those connections I think are special. There's nothing that 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.600 can replace that history, you know. 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:35.600 I think that is such a good point. Like, as 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.640 a happiness searcher, I say to people, if at all 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.560 you would ever consider going to a college reunion or 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.320 a high school reunion, even if you've never gone, really 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.960 think about going, because what you find is that you 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.640 have a special connection with people from that period of 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.680 your life that really isn't like any other kind of connection. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.120 There is an ease to it, There's an intimacy and 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.320 a trust to it that is really quite surprising. And 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.400 I go to reunions all the time and sometimes there'll 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.640 be somebody like, I've never been to one before, and 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:07.880 I'm having so much fun I can't believe. I think 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.040 sometimes people feel like it's going to be really competitive 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.640 or they're not going to know anyone. It tends to 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.600 be and this is my experience, and I've talked to 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:16.760 a lot of people about reunions. People tend to be 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.840 very open. You automatically have a lot of things in common. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.800 There's a kind of casual ease to it that's really nice. 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:25.640 And also I know a lot of people who ended 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.320 up dating and marrying people that they didn't even know 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.720 back in the day, but they reconnected with because it's 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.440 an important bond that can make it easy to get 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:34.960 to somebody. Are you a fan of reunions? How do 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:36.000 you feel about reunions. 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.640 I'm actually laughing as you're saying this, because I've never 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.600 been to a reunion. I do have a lot of 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.160 ties from my grade school, high school, and college days. 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.320 So I do feel connected, but you're actually changing my mind. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.000 I think I'm going to go to the next one 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:51.200 now and just see how I feel. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.920 Well. One of my secrets of adulthood and a secret 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.720 of happiness is that if you're trying to figure out 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.400 how to spend your precious time, energy or money, spend 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.280 it on relationships. And so I do think with a reunion, 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:03.040 you're like, oh, oh gosh, I'll have to like buy 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.200 a plane ticket, and it's going to be all this 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.800 like scheduling, and maybe you have to figure out babysitting 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:09.200 or you have to take a day off work. It 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.080 always just feels like, oh gosh, it's it going to 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.880 be worth it? But really, because relationships are at the 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.360 heart of a happy life, doing something to strengthen and 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:23.160 deepen those bonds that really are irreplaceable there from the past. 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.880 You know, what's that old song, Make new friends, but 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.800 keep the old. One is silver and the other is gold. 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:31.640 These are golden relationships. And like you say, you have 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.040 lots of connections from that time. That's wonderful. But I 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.400 bet if you went you would find more connections. 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.400 Now you're making me think of the internet when you 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.240 said spend your time, money, and energy on relationships, because 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:46.960 I always say I work in the business of people. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.960 Relationships really is at the crux of my business, and 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.080 so I do spend a lot of time, money, and 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.480 energy on them. And I've found really fruitful relationships that 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.880 have started online, but they don't really become special until 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.000 we meet in person. What does the research say about 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.399 our happiness and relationships on the internet. How has the 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.119 internet affected our relationships and happiness? 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.480 Well, that is just a profound question and something that's 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.680 changing all the time. It's being studied all the time 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.640 because it's sort of percolating through everything. It's changing work, 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.240 it's changing family life, you know. And I think, like 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.800 all tools, it's sort of an amplifier of human nature. 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.600 Every medicine can become poisoned. So there's good things about 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:30.280 the Internet, but then it can also be bad. I 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.399 think of how I have a group of writers that 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.760 I meet with every month or so, and we just 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.440 sort of talk, shop and confide in each other, and 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.520 we sort of can ask each other questions that we 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:42.960 wouldn't ask anybody else, and we wouldn't be able to 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.680 meet consistently if we didn't do it through a video 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.960 call because we're too spread out. And so this is 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.520 facilitating a relationship that's really meaningful to me that wouldn't 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.439 otherwise be possible. Now, am I super excited when I 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:56.080 see these people in person? Yes? 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:56.280 Do. 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:57.960 I think it's really important to try to make an 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.800 effort to show up for them in person one hundred percent. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.239 Now have you noticed this that you can talk to 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.280 somebody on video many times, but then it's almost like 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.159 you don't even recognize them when you meet them in 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.000 real life. It's like it's very hard to turn a 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.720 two D into a three D. And I think for 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.320 a person to really be in your mind and your memory, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.399 if you kind of need the three D because otherwise 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.040 it's like it's kind of hard to remember the details 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.479 of their life or like was it this or that? 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.480 I don't know. I think that we always want to 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.280 push it into face to face whenever we can. And 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.040 then you think of things like grandparents who aren't able 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.359 to see their grandchildren very often, and this can be 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:38.760 a really important connection. It doesn't replace, but it can augment. 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.280 Well said, I think that there's maybe you'll know better, 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.520 But I think oxytocin doesn't go off in our brain 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.400 if not all five senses are engaged, and so there's 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.040 maybe something there, because I do think it feels different 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.320 to be in person if I hug somebody, it's so different. 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.680 It's not a substitute, but it can be an important 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.119 aid to a question of like, don't let it replace. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.160 I think there is so much advice out there, some great, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:22.800 some questionable, even some experts I find questionable, and I 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:24.919 think that's part of the fun of the industry one 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:25.440 hundred percent. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.200 Well, first of all, I think the questions are always 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:28.639 more interesting than the answers. 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.240