Speaker 1: No one has all the answers, but when we ask
Speaker 1: the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths,
Speaker 1: closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist
Speaker 1: Danielle Robe and each week, my guests and I come
Speaker 1: together to challenge the status quo and our own ways
Speaker 1: of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not?
Speaker 1: And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join
Speaker 1: the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello, my beautiful people.
Speaker 1: I hope you're having a great week. I'm in New
Speaker 1: York and having a hard time believing it's already Thursday.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you feel this, but when I
Speaker 1: travel for work, it's like the days all just get
Speaker 1: mushed up together. But I'm here for a reason, and
Speaker 1: actually you're a part of it. So I post it
Speaker 1: on in Instagram, a talking circle that I threw at
Speaker 1: Gloria Steinem's house in her living room where the talking
Speaker 1: circles are, and we did it on Masculinity and I
Speaker 1: got a bunch of comments and dms saying I can't
Speaker 1: wait for this episode, and sadly we were not able
Speaker 1: to record it. It's not an episode, but you did
Speaker 1: give me an idea. So I have something very special
Speaker 1: coming for you, something you know. I can't say this often,
Speaker 1: but it's something that only I can give you. Nobody
Speaker 1: else could do it. So that is coming on the
Speaker 1: first Thursday of March, which is Women's month. You can
Speaker 1: probably guess what it is, but it's coming. So I'm
Speaker 1: very excited for that. So with that, we'll get into
Speaker 1: today's episode. Have you noticed that everywhere you turn, someone
Speaker 1: is telling you how to live your life. It's kind
Speaker 1: of exhausting. We live in a world flooded with tips
Speaker 1: and hacks in self improvement strategies, track your sleep, optimize
Speaker 1: your mornings, habit stack everybody.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: There's a popular theory that if all this advice really worked,
Speaker 1: why are so many of us still exhausted, overwhelmed, and
Speaker 1: unsure what actually makes a good life. I'm actually so
Speaker 1: mindful of that on this podcast because I do want
Speaker 1: every episode to improve all of our lives, and I
Speaker 1: don't ever want to pretend that one hack can do it.
Speaker 1: And our guest today solves for this. Okay. She is
Speaker 1: a best selling author, podcaster, and happiness expert, and she
Speaker 1: does not subscribe to that theory. Gretchen Rubin says modern
Speaker 1: self help is not the one size fits all approach
Speaker 1: that the Internet wants you to think it is.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people really try to jam themselves into someone else's model,
Speaker 2: or they insist that everybody should fit in the model
Speaker 2: that they're advocating. In my observation, that's just not the case.
Speaker 1: I think maybe when you hear Gretchen's title Happiness Researcher,
Speaker 1: you might make the assumption that she wants us to
Speaker 1: only live in a zone of bliss, that we should
Speaker 1: find a way to shield life's painful moments and then
Speaker 1: we'll be doing it right. And that's simply not true.
Speaker 1: She's reframed what living a happy life means for an
Speaker 1: entire generation. Spoiler alert, Avoiding the messy moments doesn't really
Speaker 1: make us any happier.
Speaker 2: Sometimes to live up to our values, we have to
Speaker 2: do something that's really unpleasant, or ask ourselves to do
Speaker 2: something we don't want to do, or deprive ourselves as
Speaker 2: something that we want, but that makes our life happier overall,
Speaker 2: even though it maybe isn't what makes us feel good
Speaker 2: in the moment.
Speaker 1: It might not surprise you that Gretchen, with all of
Speaker 1: her understanding of happiness is really good at giving advice.
Speaker 1: It's probably why she and her longtime friend, therapist Laurie Gottlieb,
Speaker 1: started a podcast called Since You Asked. But she's not
Speaker 1: here today to preach. Instead, she's here to help you
Speaker 1: look inward, to find your own internal wisdom, to cut
Speaker 1: through the noise on our path to self improvement. Because,
Speaker 1: as always on our never ending search for answers, we
Speaker 1: are met with even more to question. Today, it's time
Speaker 1: to question everything with Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen, you are a
Speaker 1: best selling author, an award winning podcaster, and one of
Speaker 1: today's most trusted voices on human nature. You and your
Speaker 1: work have helped millions of people examine how they live
Speaker 1: and why. The why is the part that I love
Speaker 1: so much. A lot of people don't know this, but
Speaker 1: you started your career clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra
Speaker 1: Dae O'Connor. Then you left, became a writer for ten
Speaker 1: years and started studying happiness. What was the question you
Speaker 1: couldn't stop asking yourself that made you walk away from
Speaker 1: so much of this certainty and this career that you
Speaker 1: had spent time becoming great at.
Speaker 2: Well, You know, there was a very specific question that
Speaker 2: I asked myself. And I was clerking for Sandraday O'Connor
Speaker 2: and I went for a walk on a beautiful October
Speaker 2: day and I was looking up at the Capital Dome
Speaker 2: and I thought, what am I interested in that everybody
Speaker 2: else in the world is interested, Like, what is the
Speaker 2: most interesting subject? Like I often asked myself rhetorical questions
Speaker 2: like that, and I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex.
Speaker 2: And it was like, power, money, fame, sex was this
Speaker 2: single subject and I just became intensely focused on researching
Speaker 2: and writing about it, which is something that had happened
Speaker 2: to me my whole life. Will get intensely interested in
Speaker 2: something and do a lot of research. But with this
Speaker 2: it grew and I was spending all my time reading
Speaker 2: and taking notes. And then finally it occurred to me,
Speaker 2: this is the kind of thing a person would do
Speaker 2: if they were going to write a book. Maybe I
Speaker 2: could write a book. So then I went to the
Speaker 2: bookstore and got a book called something like How to
Speaker 2: Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal, and I followed
Speaker 2: the directions and that became my first published book, was
Speaker 2: called Power, Money, Fame, Sex. The user's guide. That all
Speaker 2: makes it sound much easier than it actually was. But
Speaker 2: that was the question that got me started on the
Speaker 2: path from law to writing.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite quotes about happiness is from Eleanor Roosevelt.
Speaker 1: She says, happiness is not a goal, it's a byproduct.
Speaker 2: That's the whole school of thought. Yes.
Speaker 1: So when you say school of thought, you don't agree.
Speaker 2: No, And it's like, who's on the other side, It's
Speaker 2: like John Stuart Mill, you know who am I to
Speaker 2: disagree with these illuminaries? But I mean because the way
Speaker 2: it's often framed to me is like, look, I don't
Speaker 2: care about living a happy life. I want to live
Speaker 2: a life rich with relationships and full of meaning and purpose.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what do you think having a happy
Speaker 2: life would look like. I think that actually it's a
Speaker 2: byproduct and it's an ame. I think the aim and
Speaker 2: the by product are the same thing. So to me
Speaker 2: that choice doesn't really resonate. But there are many people
Speaker 2: who do frame it in that way. I must say, Oh.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I like that. So you don't feel like
Speaker 1: happiness is a symptom. You do feel like it can
Speaker 1: be the goal.
Speaker 2: It's a symptom and an aame. It can be both.
Speaker 2: But I think that a lot of times when I
Speaker 2: say to people like, Okay, well you don't aim to
Speaker 2: be happy, what do you aim for? They describe what
Speaker 2: I would say as a happy life. It's actually a
Speaker 2: very serious question because some people think that, like, well,
Speaker 2: it's really morally and appropriate for me to seek to
Speaker 2: be happier, that in a world so full of suffering,
Speaker 2: it's not morally appropriate to try to work on my
Speaker 2: own personal happiness. Or I basically have all of everything
Speaker 2: a person should ask of life, and so if I
Speaker 2: want to be happier, I must be a spoiled brat.
Speaker 2: But in fact, with the research shows, and I think
Speaker 2: if you think about the people in your own life,
Speaker 2: you see that actually, happier people are more interested in
Speaker 2: the problems of the world around them, and they're more
Speaker 2: interested in trying to help. Happier people have better habits.
Speaker 2: They are more likely to donate their time and their money.
Speaker 2: They're more likely to help out if a friend or
Speaker 2: a family member, or a colleague or a neighbor needs
Speaker 2: a hand. They are more tolerant, they have more perspective,
Speaker 2: they're more resilient, they're better able to be good leaders
Speaker 2: and better team members, Like there's an energy that comes
Speaker 2: from it. And then when we're less happy, you know,
Speaker 2: it's easy to become defensive and isolated and preoccupied with
Speaker 2: our own problems because we're not very happy. So if
Speaker 2: it is selfish to want to be happier, we should
Speaker 2: be selfish, if only for selfless reasons. I think a
Speaker 2: lot of times people want to say, like, well, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to be selfish and worry about my own happiness.
Speaker 2: I'm going to think about the world and other people.
Speaker 2: But in fact that's a false choice.
Speaker 1: You're striking something in me because I interviewed a woman
Speaker 1: that I really admire her, both personally and professionally. There's
Speaker 1: not a lot of people I'm going to be honest
Speaker 1: that I've interviewed, that I get to know up close
Speaker 1: whose lives look really good to me. I usually feel
Speaker 1: like there's something that isn't for me, and that's okay,
Speaker 1: it's for them. She's one of the people I really
Speaker 1: feel like she figured out the matrix for me. And
Speaker 1: she said to me at lunch one day, Danielle, you're
Speaker 1: going to have to make a choice. You're going to
Speaker 1: have to decide if you want to be happy or
Speaker 1: you want to be fulfilled. I couldn't stop thinking about
Speaker 1: it for years because I thought about what you said.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what that means. Well.
Speaker 1: I think she meant that a life of fulfillment is
Speaker 1: a life of sometimes sacrifice, sometimes frustration.
Speaker 2: And is a happy life a life with no Is
Speaker 2: that what it means to be happy? I don't think
Speaker 2: that is what most people think a happy life would be.
Speaker 1: Please expand because I like what you're saying.
Speaker 2: What do you think she meant you chose a happy life?
Speaker 2: What do you think that she thought you would choose?
Speaker 1: I think happy to her and maybe some other people
Speaker 1: feels almost hedonistic, like the seeking of self pleasure sort
Speaker 1: of flippant, like the happy choice is the easy choice
Speaker 1: versus the long and hard and arduous road that is
Speaker 1: maybe more fulfilling later.
Speaker 2: I think that that's a very shallow way to look
Speaker 2: at it, because I think if you said to one
Speaker 2: of those people, do you think that a person who
Speaker 2: just sits on the beach always indulges in their most
Speaker 2: fleeting desires? Do you think that they will be experiencing
Speaker 2: a happy life? I think they would say no, probably not,
Speaker 2: that wouldn't be a very good life. Like I don't
Speaker 2: think that anybody actually thinks that sitting by the beach
Speaker 2: all the time is a happy life now the way
Speaker 2: that I frame it for myself and kind of maybe
Speaker 2: to the same point that she's making, but I just
Speaker 2: do it in my own way. But we're actually agreeing
Speaker 2: is happiness doesn't always make us feel happy. Sometimes to
Speaker 2: live up to our values, we have to do something
Speaker 2: that's really impla or ask ourselves to do something we
Speaker 2: don't want to do, or deprive ourselves as something that
Speaker 2: we want. But that makes our life happier overall, even
Speaker 2: though it maybe isn't what makes us feel good in
Speaker 2: the moment. But is that a happy life? But I
Speaker 2: have to say, here's the thing, as you pointed out,
Speaker 2: I started out my career in law, and in law
Speaker 2: you spent an entire semester arguing about the definition of contract.
Speaker 2: To me, it's a very sterile exercise to argue over definitions,
Speaker 2: because I just think that's something you can do. The
Speaker 2: more you scratch, the more you itch.
Speaker 1: That's really funny. She was a lawyer as well. I
Speaker 1: think this is so fascinating.
Speaker 2: But what I would say is, whatever you want, how
Speaker 2: do you have more of it? If what you want
Speaker 2: is fulfillment, excellent today, next week, next month, next year,
Speaker 2: what can you do to have more fulfillment? If you
Speaker 2: want to be happy excellent today, next week, next month,
Speaker 2: next year, what can you do to be happy? We
Speaker 2: don't have to agree on the term serenity, joy, bliss, contentment,
Speaker 2: well being, life, satisfaction. Choose your own term.
Speaker 1: Everybody has a different set of values, so does living
Speaker 1: in your values create happiness? Happiness is different for different people.
Speaker 2: One thousand percent. And I think that you just articulated
Speaker 2: something that so many people get wrong and don't understand.
Speaker 2: They think that there's a one size fits all solution,
Speaker 2: and they think that somebody can just hand you like
Speaker 2: a one pager with some bullet points. But you have
Speaker 2: a different set of values.
Speaker 1: I guess that gets us to your point about habits,
Speaker 1: which I don't know that I've spent enough time looking into,
Speaker 1: because you said they're the invisible architecture of our days.
Speaker 1: And I think my creative tendencies and maybe my anti
Speaker 1: hack culture have had me not focusing on habits enough.
Speaker 1: What is a habit that you've seen change a person's
Speaker 1: life in a big way. Is there something that we
Speaker 1: resist that actually would make us happier?
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's so basic, it's so boring. Everybody knows this.
Speaker 2: It's getting enough sleep. Everything is easier when you're well rested.
Speaker 2: But it's very easy to just stay up too late.
Speaker 2: It's very easy to live a life which makes it
Speaker 2: hard to fall asleep and stay asleep. May be fighting
Speaker 2: against your chronotype because really, like forty percent of people
Speaker 2: are mourning people, about thirty percent of people are true
Speaker 2: night people, and then other people are kind of in
Speaker 2: the middle. Something that's largely genetically determined, and it's also
Speaker 2: a function of age. So if you're really a night person,
Speaker 2: some night people can really shape their lives to suit that.
Speaker 2: And I really encourage people if you are a night person,
Speaker 2: really do try to do what you can to mold
Speaker 2: your schedule around your natural chronotype. But sometimes you can't,
Speaker 2: Like sometimes you have a baby that gets up at
Speaker 2: five am, and you can't just say like, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm not really at my best until ten, and so
Speaker 2: the world kind of can make that hard. But I
Speaker 2: mean doing what is within our power, certainly, like not
Speaker 2: binge watching late into the night. People often think like,
Speaker 2: I'm wide awake, But that's because we've sort of artificially
Speaker 2: jacked ourselves up on like binge TV or work email,
Speaker 2: and so we're artificially alert. Whereas if you were, you know,
Speaker 2: reading a nineteenth century novel in bed, you would have
Speaker 2: been asleep an hour ago. But everything is easier when
Speaker 2: you're rested. Everything else that you will ask of yourself
Speaker 2: is going to be easier if you are well rested.
Speaker 2: And what research shows is that a lot of people
Speaker 2: are chronically underslept and they don't even know it. We
Speaker 2: adjust to it. We don't realize how impaired we are.
Speaker 2: But when scientists study people, they see that they are
Speaker 2: quite impaired, and so it's really something we're thinking about it.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, don't make yourself bonkers. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of that you mentioned kind of hat culture.
Speaker 2: One of the things research is showing is that focusing
Speaker 2: too much on tracking your sleep, like paying attention to
Speaker 2: every minute and you know, oh your ram cycle and
Speaker 2: oh I got to do this and got to do that,
Speaker 2: that can be counterproductive. So you got to be careful
Speaker 2: of studying it so much. That you sort of trip
Speaker 2: over your own feet.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. I had a friend
Speaker 1: who struggled with insomnia, and I learned that at the
Speaker 1: crux of insomnia is thinking about not sleeping. So it
Speaker 1: is sort of this double edged sword almost. So you
Speaker 1: have so many titles. You added a new one recently.
Speaker 1: It's co host of the podcast since you asked, which
Speaker 1: you're hosting with therapist Lori Gottlieb. I was so excited
Speaker 1: to learn that you guys went to college together. How
Speaker 1: special and fun is that? And how did that happen?
Speaker 1: Like two great minds. Were you guys friends in college?
Speaker 2: Not really, No, we weren't actually friends in college. Then
Speaker 2: of course later on when we connected again, it was
Speaker 2: like this bond that we shared. Yeah, so yeah, it's
Speaker 2: super fun.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You never know, like how things are going to turn
Speaker 2: out in the future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those connections I think are special. There's nothing that
Speaker 1: can replace that history, you know.
Speaker 2: I think that is such a good point. Like, as
Speaker 2: a happiness searcher, I say to people, if at all
Speaker 2: you would ever consider going to a college reunion or
Speaker 2: a high school reunion, even if you've never gone, really
Speaker 2: think about going, because what you find is that you
Speaker 2: have a special connection with people from that period of
Speaker 2: your life that really isn't like any other kind of connection.
Speaker 2: There is an ease to it, There's an intimacy and
Speaker 2: a trust to it that is really quite surprising. And
Speaker 2: I go to reunions all the time and sometimes there'll
Speaker 2: be somebody like, I've never been to one before, and
Speaker 2: I'm having so much fun I can't believe. I think
Speaker 2: sometimes people feel like it's going to be really competitive
Speaker 2: or they're not going to know anyone. It tends to
Speaker 2: be and this is my experience, and I've talked to
Speaker 2: a lot of people about reunions. People tend to be
Speaker 2: very open. You automatically have a lot of things in common.
Speaker 2: There's a kind of casual ease to it that's really nice.
Speaker 2: And also I know a lot of people who ended
Speaker 2: up dating and marrying people that they didn't even know
Speaker 2: back in the day, but they reconnected with because it's
Speaker 2: an important bond that can make it easy to get
Speaker 2: to somebody. Are you a fan of reunions? How do
Speaker 2: you feel about reunions.
Speaker 1: I'm actually laughing as you're saying this, because I've never
Speaker 1: been to a reunion. I do have a lot of
Speaker 1: ties from my grade school, high school, and college days.
Speaker 1: So I do feel connected, but you're actually changing my mind.
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to go to the next one
Speaker 1: now and just see how I feel.
Speaker 2: Well. One of my secrets of adulthood and a secret
Speaker 2: of happiness is that if you're trying to figure out
Speaker 2: how to spend your precious time, energy or money, spend
Speaker 2: it on relationships. And so I do think with a reunion,
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, oh gosh, I'll have to like buy
Speaker 2: a plane ticket, and it's going to be all this
Speaker 2: like scheduling, and maybe you have to figure out babysitting
Speaker 2: or you have to take a day off work. It
Speaker 2: always just feels like, oh gosh, it's it going to
Speaker 2: be worth it? But really, because relationships are at the
Speaker 2: heart of a happy life, doing something to strengthen and
Speaker 2: deepen those bonds that really are irreplaceable there from the past.
Speaker 2: You know, what's that old song, Make new friends, but
Speaker 2: keep the old. One is silver and the other is gold.
Speaker 2: These are golden relationships. And like you say, you have
Speaker 2: lots of connections from that time. That's wonderful. But I
Speaker 2: bet if you went you would find more connections.
Speaker 1: Now you're making me think of the internet when you
Speaker 1: said spend your time, money, and energy on relationships, because
Speaker 1: I always say I work in the business of people.
Speaker 1: Relationships really is at the crux of my business, and
Speaker 1: so I do spend a lot of time, money, and
Speaker 1: energy on them. And I've found really fruitful relationships that
Speaker 1: have started online, but they don't really become special until
Speaker 1: we meet in person. What does the research say about
Speaker 1: our happiness and relationships on the internet. How has the
Speaker 1: internet affected our relationships and happiness?
Speaker 2: Well, that is just a profound question and something that's
Speaker 2: changing all the time. It's being studied all the time
Speaker 2: because it's sort of percolating through everything. It's changing work,
Speaker 2: it's changing family life, you know. And I think, like
Speaker 2: all tools, it's sort of an amplifier of human nature.
Speaker 2: Every medicine can become poisoned. So there's good things about
Speaker 2: the Internet, but then it can also be bad. I
Speaker 2: think of how I have a group of writers that
Speaker 2: I meet with every month or so, and we just
Speaker 2: sort of talk, shop and confide in each other, and
Speaker 2: we sort of can ask each other questions that we
Speaker 2: wouldn't ask anybody else, and we wouldn't be able to
Speaker 2: meet consistently if we didn't do it through a video
Speaker 2: call because we're too spread out. And so this is
Speaker 2: facilitating a relationship that's really meaningful to me that wouldn't
Speaker 2: otherwise be possible. Now, am I super excited when I
Speaker 2: see these people in person? Yes?
Speaker 3: Do.
Speaker 2: I think it's really important to try to make an
Speaker 2: effort to show up for them in person one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: Now have you noticed this that you can talk to
Speaker 2: somebody on video many times, but then it's almost like
Speaker 2: you don't even recognize them when you meet them in
Speaker 2: real life. It's like it's very hard to turn a
Speaker 2: two D into a three D. And I think for
Speaker 2: a person to really be in your mind and your memory,
Speaker 2: if you kind of need the three D because otherwise
Speaker 2: it's like it's kind of hard to remember the details
Speaker 2: of their life or like was it this or that?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that we always want to
Speaker 2: push it into face to face whenever we can. And
Speaker 2: then you think of things like grandparents who aren't able
Speaker 2: to see their grandchildren very often, and this can be
Speaker 2: a really important connection. It doesn't replace, but it can augment.
Speaker 1: Well said, I think that there's maybe you'll know better,
Speaker 1: But I think oxytocin doesn't go off in our brain
Speaker 1: if not all five senses are engaged, and so there's
Speaker 1: maybe something there, because I do think it feels different
Speaker 1: to be in person if I hug somebody, it's so different.
Speaker 2: It's not a substitute, but it can be an important
Speaker 2: aid to a question of like, don't let it replace.
Speaker 1: I think there is so much advice out there, some great,
Speaker 1: some questionable, even some experts I find questionable, and I
Speaker 1: think that's part of the fun of the industry one
Speaker 1: hundred percent.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think the questions are always
Speaker 2: more interesting than the answers.
Speaker 1: It's my life ethos scratching.
Speaker 2: Yes, I just think very humbly is the person who's answering.
Speaker 2: I'm like, the question's always the best part. But I
Speaker 2: think you're right. Part of what's fun about it is
Speaker 2: that it helps us understand by questioning, well, what would
Speaker 2: I say? Do I agree? It helps us see our
Speaker 2: own values more clearly, or if we're talking about it
Speaker 2: with somebody else, it's like it's a way to like
Speaker 2: without sort of arguing about our own experience. It allows
Speaker 2: you to say, like, oh, what would you say or
Speaker 2: how would you have handled that? Or they got that
Speaker 2: completely wrong, and then somebody else will be like, oh no,
Speaker 2: I saw it, you know. So I think it is
Speaker 2: kind of sleep fascinating because we like to think about, well,
Speaker 2: what would.
Speaker 1: We say, Well, how do you personally define good advice?
Speaker 2: I love when something brings true. There are times when
Speaker 2: somebody says something to you and it just brings true
Speaker 2: and you are like, oh my gosh, that just brings
Speaker 2: me so much clarity, you know. And often it's a
Speaker 2: way of thinking about it, or it's framing it in
Speaker 2: a way that you hadn't thought of, and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, yes, Like
Speaker 2: I remember a wonderful advice that I got from my
Speaker 2: mother was my daughter was really young, and one thing
Speaker 2: about me is I live right around the corner from
Speaker 2: my in laws. You didn't even cross the street. They
Speaker 2: live right around the corner. And this wasn't even advice
Speaker 2: for my mother, but something she said allowed me to
Speaker 2: reframe my situation. I've said to my mother, Oh, you know,
Speaker 2: the thing that is so annoying about having a baby,
Speaker 2: it's just to go into the pediatrician like constantly. It's
Speaker 2: like they got to weigh them, they got to get
Speaker 2: their shots, they got to get checked out. I feel
Speaker 2: like I'm just going to the pediatrician all day long.
Speaker 2: And she said, oh, well, I bet your mother in
Speaker 2: law would do it, right, my Judy, because she's this
Speaker 2: very hands on grandmother. She said, oh, I'm Judy would
Speaker 2: do it. And I thought, oh my gosh, I don't
Speaker 2: want Judy to do it. I want to do it.
Speaker 2: I get to do it. And just realizing like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm complaining about something, but I would never give it up.
Speaker 2: It completely changed my understanding of my own situation. And
Speaker 2: you often hear people say like, you don't have to,
Speaker 2: you get to and it's such a simple shift, but
Speaker 2: it really can make a very big difference in how
Speaker 2: you see a circumstance.
Speaker 1: Talk about a happiness reframe. I like that example.
Speaker 2: Oh I love a reframe.
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're living in a rampant self improvement age.
Speaker 1: It's a multi billion dollar industry. I personally love self help.
Speaker 1: A lot of the books that you see in my
Speaker 1: background are self help books. The critics of help, or
Speaker 1: the skeptics often say that there are more self help
Speaker 1: books than ever, and if all this advice worked, wouldn't
Speaker 1: there be fewer of them now? So, in an effort
Speaker 1: to be discerning, who do you think we should definitely
Speaker 1: not be taking advice from.
Speaker 2: Well, I think anybody who hasn't met people, because that's
Speaker 2: not how people work. And just as a side note,
Speaker 2: one thing that's interesting is I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people have the idea that people who read self help
Speaker 2: books are sort of the ones that are hanging on
Speaker 2: by their fingernails and are like really struggling, But actually
Speaker 2: those people don't read self help books. People who read
Speaker 2: self help tend to be very high performing people because
Speaker 2: they understand like how they can improve whatever their aim
Speaker 2: is for themselves, and they're trying to be happier, healthier,
Speaker 2: more productive, more creative, whatever they're trying to do. They
Speaker 2: understand that they can change and they're very interested in
Speaker 2: learning about it. So, actually, the people who read self
Speaker 2: help books, but the most part, they've kind of got
Speaker 2: it together.
Speaker 1: Then, to clip that from my dad, Gretchen, thank you
Speaker 1: very much, which.
Speaker 2: Is obvious because you're like very successful, right, But I
Speaker 2: think that the thing is to really try to understand
Speaker 2: what works for you. I think there really is a
Speaker 2: misconsumption that if something works for me, it will work
Speaker 2: for you, or if it works for you, it will
Speaker 2: work for me, and if it doesn't work for me,
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with me. I'm not a grown up,
Speaker 2: I'm lazy. There's something wrong with me. Instead of saying like,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways to achieve our aims, and
Speaker 2: maybe I'll try something because it worked for you, but
Speaker 2: it didn't work for me, this is me and meditation.
Speaker 2: People assume that I love meditation because I study happiness.
Speaker 2: I have tried it three times, I have been on
Speaker 2: a silent meditation retreat, I have meditated for months, and
Speaker 2: I'm just here to say it's not a tool that
Speaker 2: works for me. I don't dispute that it works extremely
Speaker 2: well for a lot of people one hundred percent. I'm
Speaker 2: just saying, at least at this point, it's not a
Speaker 2: tool that works for me. And that is fine, because
Speaker 2: I have other tools to achieve the same aims for myself.
Speaker 2: But I think sometimes people really try to jam themselves
Speaker 2: into someone else's model, or they insist that everybody should
Speaker 2: fit in the model that they're advocating. In my observation,
Speaker 2: that's just not the case.
Speaker 1: What works for you? Are you more of an active meditator?
Speaker 1: Do you feel meditative when you walk or do yoga.
Speaker 2: Meditation is a discipline of the mind, and sometimes people
Speaker 2: who meditate kind of wanted to dispute that, but I
Speaker 2: think that you have to accept you are trying to
Speaker 2: do something with your mind when you're meditating. Even if
Speaker 2: you were trying to do nothing with your mind. That's
Speaker 2: very effortful and I have a lot of focus. So
Speaker 2: what I try to cultivate is time where I let
Speaker 2: my mind off the leash, where I just let myself
Speaker 2: daydream and follow associations like I go to the Metropolitan
Speaker 2: Museum every day. I'm so fortunate I live within walking
Speaker 2: distance of the met so I go every single day
Speaker 2: and I just walk around and people are like, well,
Speaker 2: that's meditation. I'm like, it's not meditation because I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to do anything particular with my mind. I'm trying
Speaker 2: to like just play or just whatever. I just do
Speaker 2: whatever I feel like, and that is what I need,
Speaker 2: and so that is the practice that works for me.
Speaker 2: But what I'm doing is much closer to daydreaming than
Speaker 2: it is to meditation.
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing. That distinction, I feel similarly to you.
Speaker 1: I think for me it's important to play more so
Speaker 1: because I'm constantly focused.
Speaker 2: Right, And so it's not that it's not a good tool.
Speaker 2: It just may not be a tool that is useful
Speaker 2: for the way you and your mind fit together.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: And also in this season maybe that changes.
Speaker 2: That is an excellent point, that there are seasons of
Speaker 2: life and sometimes we need something or something works for
Speaker 2: us very well, and that in another season it doesn't.
Speaker 2: That's a really important point because I think sometimes people
Speaker 2: feel like it's sort of like now and forever or never.
Speaker 2: I can always try it again later.
Speaker 1: I want to get your pulse on something I've been
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about. I get pitched a lot of
Speaker 1: people who are experts, and I put it in quotation
Speaker 1: marks because they'll say, like, I'm coming out with a
Speaker 1: book about how to get over your fear, and I'll say, awesome,
Speaker 1: what are your credentials? And they'll say, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I worked ten years in the corporate world and I
Speaker 1: was fearful every day. And I've really been thinking about
Speaker 1: lived experience versus expertise because on the Internet there are
Speaker 1: so many people calling themselves experts and really so much
Speaker 1: as lived experience, and I don't discount that, but I
Speaker 1: do find that there's a difference. Laurie's background, Lori Gottlieb,
Speaker 1: your co host in this podcast, is in psychotherapy and
Speaker 1: yours is inhabits in the happiness science. Do you have
Speaker 1: a pet pee when it comes to Internet personalities giving
Speaker 1: advice and presenting as experts, because I'm gonna be honest,
Speaker 1: I sort of do.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think part of it is to be honest
Speaker 2: about what your credentials are so that people are judging
Speaker 2: according to what you say. Like a lot of times
Speaker 2: people I would say in a medical area will describe
Speaker 2: themselves as doctors where they aren't medical doctors. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: if you refer to yourself as a doctor when you're
Speaker 2: talking about medicine, I think it's fair for people to
Speaker 2: assume that you're a medical doctor. So I would make
Speaker 2: it clear that you're not a medical doctor. If you're
Speaker 2: not a medical doctor. Now, people may not care if
Speaker 2: you're a medical doctor, but I feel like it's kind
Speaker 2: of deliberately misleading in that context. So that's an example
Speaker 2: of where I think credentials really matter. Now I have
Speaker 2: this framework that I created called the four Tendencies framework,
Speaker 2: which divides people polders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. And this
Speaker 2: has a lot of value if you're trying to figure
Speaker 2: out how to change a habit, or you don't understand
Speaker 2: like why you're procrastinating, or you have a conflict with somebody,
Speaker 2: or you're trying to get somebody else to do something,
Speaker 2: if you don't understand, like why they're not cooperating. And
Speaker 2: I have a quiz and like three a halfred million
Speaker 2: people have taken this quiz. It's on my website, Gretchenmuba
Speaker 2: dot com and people can take it and it's really
Speaker 2: helpful and it's really predictive, and a lot of times
Speaker 2: people will say to me, like my whole life now
Speaker 2: is revealed to me, Or now I understand why I
Speaker 2: keep having this argument with my husband or everybody on
Speaker 2: my team, Like we can instantly tell like which we are,
Speaker 2: and I can say to you, well, if I know
Speaker 2: you're a questioner, I can say these three things are
Speaker 2: probably true, and it tends to be very accurate. And
Speaker 2: I remember I was doing an interview with somebody who's
Speaker 2: like an academic and he was really pushing me for
Speaker 2: saying like, well, you're making all these scientific claims, and
Speaker 2: I'm like to be clear, I am making no scientific claims.
Speaker 2: I have no laboratory with people eating marshmallows. I have
Speaker 2: done no sixty thousand person study. I did do like
Speaker 2: a sample to see like the distribution and the population,
Speaker 2: but it was just to see the numbers. I sink
Speaker 2: mine is from my observation. I find that people really
Speaker 2: find this clarifying. If I explain it to you. You
Speaker 2: can do the Game of Thrones characters, you can do
Speaker 2: the characters from the Office, we can do movies. You
Speaker 2: will be able to spot it in many people in
Speaker 2: your life and for many people, it's a transformative thing
Speaker 2: to understand. But it's purely observation. So I think it's like,
Speaker 2: really understand what is the person's claim for what they're saying,
Speaker 2: and then judge it according to that claim. I think
Speaker 2: the problem comes when people are implying, well, I'm a
Speaker 2: leadership expert, you know. I think then you have to say, okay,
Speaker 2: well who have you led? Were like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: how to like, you know, streamline teams. It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: what teams have you streamlined? Who have you fired? How
Speaker 2: did that go? Because I agree it's very easy to
Speaker 2: give advice. One of the things that I do see
Speaker 2: is that people will give advice and I'm just like,
Speaker 2: you have never met a person because that is just
Speaker 2: like not going to work, right, Like that isn't going
Speaker 2: to work. Or maybe that'll work, but probably it won't work.
Speaker 2: Probably the person's already tried that, and if that worked,
Speaker 2: they wouldn't be asking the question. That's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons that I wrote my book better than before, which
Speaker 2: is all about habit changed because people kept saying this works.
Speaker 2: Start small, tiny habits that works. I'm like, it works
Speaker 2: for some people, but what about all the people for
Speaker 2: whom it doesn't work, and there's a lot of them.
Speaker 2: Or make it you do list, get clear on your priorities,
Speaker 2: start your day with me matters the most of you.
Speaker 2: I'm like, that works for some people, but some people
Speaker 2: hated to do list, and if it's on a to
Speaker 2: do list, they'll refuse to do it. What about those folks?
Speaker 2: Or get up early, start your day at seven am,
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm like, but what about the night people?
Speaker 2: So I think you really have to judge. Who do
Speaker 2: you think has the credentials and speaks your language too.
Speaker 1: I think that's why your framework actually really helps. I
Speaker 1: took your test or your quiz.
Speaker 2: Okay, what's your tendency?
Speaker 1: I feel like you could probably guess, But I'm a questioner.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say. I mean, the name of your
Speaker 2: podcast is a little bit of a tell. But yeah,
Speaker 2: and probably like, let me guess. Are you told that
Speaker 2: you ask too many questions? Do you sometimes suffer analysis
Speaker 2: paralysis where it's hard to move forward because you don't
Speaker 2: have perfect information? Or do you tend to love research?
Speaker 2: Maybe you get pulled into the black hole of research
Speaker 2: and it's hard to escape. Are you the kind of
Speaker 2: questioner who doesn't like answering questions? This isn't all questions,
Speaker 2: but a lot of questions are like I don't want
Speaker 2: to have to explain myself. I did the research, Like,
Speaker 2: just take it from me. What are you? I'm an upholder?
Speaker 2: So should I explain? With the four rs? So people, I.
Speaker 1: Would love it if you don't mind. I'm glad that
Speaker 1: you're not a questioner, so you don't mind sharing.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I love talking about this. Okay. What this
Speaker 2: looks at is a very narrow aspect of your personality,
Speaker 2: but it matters a lot. It looks at how you
Speaker 2: respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations.
Speaker 2: Outer expectations that's like a work deadline, Inner expectations your
Speaker 2: own desire to keep your own New Year's resolution. So
Speaker 2: depending on whether you meet or resist outer and inner expectations,
Speaker 2: that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger,
Speaker 2: or a rebel. So upholders are people who readily meet
Speaker 2: both outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline,
Speaker 2: they keep the new year's resolution without much fuss. They
Speaker 2: want to know what other people expect from them, but
Speaker 2: their expectations for themselves are just as important. They tend
Speaker 2: to love to do lists, scheduling. They're very good at execution.
Speaker 2: They don't need a lot of supervision. So their motto is,
Speaker 2: discipline is my freedom. Then I'm an a polder. Then
Speaker 2: there are questioners like you, and questioners question all expectations.
Speaker 2: They'll do something if they think it makes sense, so
Speaker 2: they're making everything an inner expectation. If it meets their
Speaker 2: inner standard, they will do it no problem. If it
Speaker 2: fails their innerstandard, they'll refuse. They hate anything arbitrary, unjustified, irrational.
Speaker 2: They love research, They tend to love to customize. They're
Speaker 2: always looking for like the best, most efficient, most customized answer.
Speaker 2: And their motto is all comply if you convince me, why.
Speaker 1: You read me?
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, right, it's ringing true. That's great. So then
Speaker 2: there are obligers. So this is the biggest tendency for
Speaker 2: both men and women. So you either are an obliger
Speaker 2: or you have many obligers in your life. Obligers readily
Speaker 2: meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations.
Speaker 2: So these are the people who say, why is it
Speaker 2: that I can always keep my promises to other people,
Speaker 2: but I can't keep my promises to myself. They sometimes
Speaker 2: think it's a problem of priority or clarity, or putting
Speaker 2: themselves first or self esteem. But what it is is
Speaker 2: that they need outer accountability even to meet an inner expectation.
Speaker 2: If you want to read more, join a book group.
Speaker 2: If you want to exercise more, join a class. Work
Speaker 2: out with a friend who's annoyed if you don't show up.
Speaker 2: Take your dog for a run who's so disappointed if
Speaker 2: he doesn't get to go for a run. Raise money
Speaker 2: for a charity, think of your duty to be a
Speaker 2: role model for somebody else. There are a million ways
Speaker 2: to create out of accountability, but you have to realize
Speaker 2: that as an obliger, you must create out of accountability
Speaker 2: even for an inner expectation.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you a quick question about the obliger?
Speaker 1: So to build that inner sense of responsibility, you need
Speaker 1: a buddy. Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 2: You need outer accountability? So buddy is one way, but
Speaker 2: there's thousands of ways to create outter accountability. Let's come
Speaker 2: back to that because there's a lot to talk about
Speaker 2: with the bliger. So there's such a big group, but
Speaker 2: just to round it out. So if people are thinking like,
Speaker 2: well what am I? I don't want to leave you hanging.
Speaker 2: So the motto of the obliger is you can count
Speaker 2: on me, and I'm counting on you to count on me.
Speaker 2: And then finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out of
Speaker 2: an inter alike. They want to do what they want
Speaker 2: to do in their own way, in their own time.
Speaker 2: They can do anything they want to do, anything they
Speaker 2: choose to do. But if you ask or tell them
Speaker 2: to do something, they are very likely to resist and
Speaker 2: typically They don't tell themselves what to do, like they
Speaker 2: don't sign up for a ten am spin class on
Speaker 2: Saturday because they think, I don't know what I'm going
Speaker 2: to want to do on Saturday, and just the idea
Speaker 2: that somebody's expecting me to show up is going to
Speaker 2: bug me. So their motto is you can't make me,
Speaker 2: and either can I. And that is the smallest group.
Speaker 2: Rebel is the smallest, A polder my tendency is only
Speaker 2: slightly bigger. These are kind of the extreme personality types.
Speaker 2: Obliger is the biggest, in questioners the second largest. So
Speaker 2: this is useful if you're thinking about like a curriculum
Speaker 2: or clients or students or whatever. A big percentage of
Speaker 2: people are going to be abligers or questioners.
Speaker 1: So you always see the opinion that people don't actually change.
Speaker 1: Is that true or false?
Speaker 2: I think both are true. I think people don't change
Speaker 2: and people do change. We change more than we think,
Speaker 2: But then you know there's a lot of parts of
Speaker 2: us that don't change. So I think we do change.
Speaker 2: We're always making our souls. But there is also they
Speaker 2: get what you get and you don't get upset aspect
Speaker 2: of it too.
Speaker 1: I agree with you. Maybe it has to do with
Speaker 1: your values. You are who you are, but you can
Speaker 1: change your tendencies.
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, you can change your behavior, and when you
Speaker 2: change your behavior, you can change what your life looks like.
Speaker 1: When people call in to your show, what seems to
Speaker 1: be the relationships they have the most trouble with family?
Speaker 1: Romantic or friendship?
Speaker 2: Family?
Speaker 1: Have you noticed any trends in the types of questions
Speaker 1: that you've gotten over the years. Do you think what
Speaker 1: people are asking advice about is revealing something about our culture?
Speaker 2: I think that the issues related to work from home
Speaker 2: are something that just didn't exist, you know before. It
Speaker 2: feels like it's been going on a long time, but
Speaker 2: just in terms of sort of like our experience, it's
Speaker 2: very new, and so there's a lot of issues related
Speaker 2: to that that are kind of unprecedented.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have thought about that. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: If someone could only follow one piece of advice that
Speaker 1: you give for the rest of their life, one that
Speaker 1: you think would have the biggest impact, what would it.
Speaker 2: Be Accept yourself and expect more from yourself. So this
Speaker 2: goes back to your earlier question, like do we change
Speaker 2: It's like, on the one hand, you want to show
Speaker 2: compassion for yourself, Accept yourself, don't try to live up
Speaker 2: to some fantasy self. We are who we are to
Speaker 2: send a group, but then also expect more from yourself.
Speaker 2: Push yourself, get out of your comfort zone. Grow, so
Speaker 2: both are true. Accept ourselves and also expect more from ourselves.
Speaker 1: Speaking of expecting more, this is actually perfect for my
Speaker 1: next question. There's a saying that I really love that
Speaker 1: self esteem comes from doing esteemable acts and felt so
Speaker 1: simple and so profound the first time I heard it.
Speaker 1: The idea that our confidence is built one small action
Speaker 1: at a time is something that resonates for me. What
Speaker 1: is an estimable act that gives you, Gretchen a big boost?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the research backs that up, so
Speaker 2: that's a very sound piece of wisdom. I really do
Speaker 2: try to connect people. I try to, you know, make
Speaker 2: useful introductions to people, whether it's giving people business, whether
Speaker 2: it's setting people up, whether it's thinking people could tuck
Speaker 2: shop together productively. I have started many groups. I organize
Speaker 2: things like reunions. I try to help bring people together.
Speaker 1: That's so cool that your octopus of relationships is your gift.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's a gift because I know
Speaker 2: people who do it so much better than I do it.
Speaker 2: But it's something that I really work on, and it
Speaker 2: kind of comes hard to me because I'm always just like,
Speaker 2: oh gosh, I don't want to send another email, or like,
Speaker 2: how do you spell that person's last name again? Or
Speaker 2: you know, now I have to like describe what each
Speaker 2: of them in a sentence. So I don't think I
Speaker 2: do it effortlessly. I have a friend who just connects
Speaker 2: people effortlessly, but he's like, why does everybody know Kim Scott?
Speaker 2: Like everybody does. It's like a magic. But I work
Speaker 2: at it. So in that way, it's something that I
Speaker 2: esteem because I put the effort into it, because I
Speaker 2: really value it, even though i'd sort of rather not,
Speaker 2: so I think that makes it feel more estimable in
Speaker 2: my mind than things that maybe would come even more naturally.
Speaker 1: Thanks for your honesty, I like that. I want to
Speaker 1: get your advice on people's questions. So the first one is.
Speaker 4: So I'm getting married soon, but I've been struggling with
Speaker 4: how some of the people that I feel like I've
Speaker 4: poured a lot of love into for some of their
Speaker 4: milestones either have or haven't really shown up for mine.
Speaker 4: I want to meet people where they are, but when
Speaker 4: it comes to big life moments like a wedding, it's
Speaker 4: kind of painful when the people you've supported don't really
Speaker 4: show up for you in the same way. So I
Speaker 4: guess my question is what's a healthy mindset for that?
Speaker 4: And then how do we balance acceptance and expectations and relationships.
Speaker 2: This is such a good question, and that last line
Speaker 2: is so wise because it's acceptance and expectation, because really
Speaker 2: the problem is that there's this expectation that the people
Speaker 2: will respond in a way that they're not and just
Speaker 2: a few observations. Is earlier, we were talking about season
Speaker 2: of life, and one of the things in many people's
Speaker 2: experiences of weddings is there's a wedding season. And when
Speaker 2: you are in a season of life where you have
Speaker 2: like a lot of time and energy free, you might
Speaker 2: have shown up for a friend in a really big way,
Speaker 2: but then by the time they're getting married, maybe your
Speaker 2: life have gotten pulled into a really demanding job, or
Speaker 2: maybe you have a baby, or you just have a
Speaker 2: lot more demands on your time. And it's not that
Speaker 2: you don't have the same level of love, and maybe
Speaker 2: you wish you could do these things, but you're just
Speaker 2: not in a place where you can do it. And
Speaker 2: I think understanding that sometimes people's gestures match their feelings.
Speaker 2: And then also one thing that I experience is some
Speaker 2: people love making big gestures. They love buying gifts, they
Speaker 2: love planning celebrations, they love writing a toast, like they
Speaker 2: love to do that. And if you love to do that,
Speaker 2: that's an important way for you to express yourself. But
Speaker 2: it may be that the people that you love don't
Speaker 2: share that, Like it's not the way that they want
Speaker 2: to express themselves, and it isn't a reflection of their feeling.
Speaker 2: It's just more of a reflection of like, are they
Speaker 2: like this with everyone? You know what I mean? It's like, well,
Speaker 2: they didn't write me a rhyming toast at my wedding,
Speaker 2: but I noticed they didn't write a rhyming toast anybody
Speaker 2: else either. Like I have a friend who loves to
Speaker 2: give gifts and she would exchange gifts all the time,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, I don't like exchanging gifts. I don't
Speaker 2: know what to buy, I don't like running errands. I
Speaker 2: feel like I have so much stuff. Do they even
Speaker 2: need it or want it, Like to me, it's something
Speaker 2: she loves, but it's not something that's meaningful to me.
Speaker 2: But is she a better friend to my mind? No?
Speaker 2: To her mind, maybe so, because it's a really important
Speaker 2: gesture for her, But like in our friendship, we've sort
Speaker 2: of stopped exchanging gifts because I know she would like
Speaker 2: to do it, but it's not something that I am
Speaker 2: going to cooperate with. And so it may be that
Speaker 2: your expectations are just too high. There is a sense
Speaker 2: of reciprocity that people often have. It's interesting, I see
Speaker 2: this just minor tangent. My next book is going to
Speaker 2: be about the empty nest as a worst reckoning of adulthood.
Speaker 2: And you see this sometimes with parents. They will do
Speaker 2: really extravagant, thoughtful gestures for a child, like I'm going
Speaker 2: to write a long, thoughtful letter twice a week, or
Speaker 2: I'm going to like send these like really elaborate care packages.
Speaker 2: And they think, oh, I'll do that, and then my
Speaker 2: child will like flood me with attention and love and
Speaker 2: appreciation for this grand gesture. But a lot of times
Speaker 2: their kids are like thanks, like they don't really care.
Speaker 2: And so if you're going to do that. It's like,
Speaker 2: do it for yourself because that's how you love to
Speaker 2: show your feelings, but try to manage your expectations because
Speaker 2: people don't always respond at the same level.
Speaker 1: There's also this element of something left unsaid. I had
Speaker 1: a friendship expert on the podcast a few years ago.
Speaker 1: I asked her for advice because I said, my bandwidth
Speaker 1: is solow and I don't feel like I'm being the
Speaker 1: friend I want to be in my friendship are so
Speaker 1: important to me. And she said I would just send
Speaker 1: a video message or a text message to your friend
Speaker 1: and say, I am aware that I'm not showing up
Speaker 1: the way that I want to right now, and I
Speaker 1: just want you to know it's not a reflection I
Speaker 1: love you so much, and just say the thing.
Speaker 2: That's a great suggestion, Just come right out and say,
Speaker 2: but see, here's the problem though this person wants to receive.
Speaker 2: That's great advice for you. And maybe if she got that,
Speaker 2: she would be comforted because she would be like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's not personal. It's like, oh my gosh, my friend
Speaker 2: has a new baby who's really cranky, and like she
Speaker 2: just you know, can barely take a shower, let alone
Speaker 2: plan a bachelorette party for me. But it's hard when
Speaker 2: you are wanting that, you feel like, well, I've taken time,
Speaker 2: I've gone to all these links for you, and so
Speaker 2: now I'm feeling very left out and neglected.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's worth a conversation or is it
Speaker 1: too hard to bring up?
Speaker 2: I think it's worth a conversation, but I think that's
Speaker 2: a very hard conversation to have. You know, a lot
Speaker 2: of themes are the hard conversation. If you can use humor,
Speaker 2: that is very next level, but it can make it
Speaker 2: easier to say and hear difficult things and try to
Speaker 2: do it face to face. But if you're like, hey,
Speaker 2: what is up, Like you know, three years ago at
Speaker 2: this time, like we were in Nashville, have an amazing time,
Speaker 2: Like where's my plan? Like whatever it would be, so
Speaker 2: that you can broach it in a way that someone
Speaker 2: can hear that without becoming defensive, and then maybe say
Speaker 2: like whatever it is. It's really good to talk about things,
Speaker 2: but it's really hard. It's really hard to say to somebody,
Speaker 2: my feelings are really hurt because I did so much
Speaker 2: for you when it was your turn, and now you're
Speaker 2: just not paying attention to me, that's a hard thing
Speaker 2: to say.
Speaker 1: Okay, the next question is.
Speaker 5: Something I'm struggling with right now, even though I know
Speaker 5: it sounds a little silly. How do you find closure
Speaker 5: after losing a job? I gave years of loyalty and effort,
Speaker 5: built what I thought were real relationships, and then it
Speaker 5: just ended. No explanationations, no goodbye, no chance to say
Speaker 5: my piece. How do you let go of the anger
Speaker 5: and resentment when there's no closure?
Speaker 2: Oh, that is really hard.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: We were talking about reframing earlier. So one thing that
Speaker 2: you might do is just sit down for yourself and say, like,
Speaker 2: what did I gain from this experience? What was it
Speaker 2: for me? What was the value of it for me?
Speaker 2: Because that might give you a sense of closure within yourself, like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I really learned how to speak in front of a group,
Speaker 2: I really learned a ton about this industry. I got
Speaker 2: experience managing a team. What is it so that you
Speaker 2: feel like, well, there is closure for me, even if
Speaker 2: I didn't get closure with the other people. And also
Speaker 2: if you feel like the relationships are real, reach out
Speaker 2: to the other people. It's extremely valuable to have relationships
Speaker 2: with people as we go through life, and so the
Speaker 2: fact that you're not working with people anymore, maybe they're
Speaker 2: not going to be like your best friends and you're
Speaker 2: going to be going out or having them over to
Speaker 2: your house once a month. But maybe there was something
Speaker 2: silly that you all shared, Like there was some television
Speaker 2: show you would always talk about. You're like, oh, my gosh,
Speaker 2: you know, let's have a finale party and get together
Speaker 2: and catch up and we'll all watch this, you know,
Speaker 2: something to keep those relationships alive, or you know, the
Speaker 2: occasional coffee or like, oh this made me think of
Speaker 2: you text. So it's not like you walked out the
Speaker 2: door and everything just vanished, but that you do have
Speaker 2: this sense of ongoing relationship and having gained in skills
Speaker 2: and experience from it. It is really hard when you
Speaker 2: want from the organization something that it is not giving
Speaker 2: you that you feel like is owed. So it's how
Speaker 2: do you create the sense of closure within yourself.
Speaker 1: I think you touched on something that I hear a
Speaker 1: lot of my peers talk about millennials in particular feel
Speaker 1: I think when they work at large corporations that they
Speaker 1: gave so much and when it ends, did anyone even care?
Speaker 1: So there's like a reckoning happening with corporate culture. I
Speaker 1: think gen Z probably has felt that too.
Speaker 2: You see a lot of research that this sense of
Speaker 2: like dedicating yourself to an organation is not nearly as
Speaker 2: intense as it was in the past for exactly that reason.
Speaker 2: But you know, another thing that can be a useful
Speaker 2: exercise can be imagine your future self. Let's say like
Speaker 2: a year or three years in the future, and write
Speaker 2: yourself a letter about like, why is it that it
Speaker 2: was really good that this played out the way that
Speaker 2: it did. I had a boss one time where no
Speaker 2: matter what happened, no matter how bad something was that happened,
Speaker 2: he would say, wait a minute, this works for us,
Speaker 2: and he was able to spin a tail that by
Speaker 2: the end we were like, this is amazing. This really
Speaker 2: works for us. You can say, like, why in the end,
Speaker 2: am I maybe better off? What is the future that
Speaker 2: I can imagine for myself where really like this works
Speaker 2: for me? And that can be another way to try
Speaker 2: to put it into a context that feels more positive.
Speaker 2: But I don't want to be pollyannish because you might
Speaker 2: be like, hey, you know, actually it was really bad.
Speaker 2: I lost my health insurance but it is something that
Speaker 2: can be a very helpful way to refrain.
Speaker 1: I don't find it Pollyanna because it happened, so like
Speaker 1: you have to make the best of the situation.
Speaker 6: That's a good point next step.
Speaker 7: I get so paralyzed when it comes to the big
Speaker 7: life shaping choices, like whether to leave a relationship that's
Speaker 7: mostly good but missing something essential, or whether to take
Speaker 7: a new job that excites me but terrifies me financially.
Speaker 7: The little decisions I can make quickly, but the big
Speaker 7: ones feel like they carry the weight of my whole future.
Speaker 7: How do you know when to leap, when to wait,
Speaker 7: and how to live with the fact that you'll never
Speaker 7: know what the other path might have been?
Speaker 2: Yes, sliding doors. Well, one thing I will say, a
Speaker 2: big sort of initial thing is often people imagine that
Speaker 2: if they made the perfect decision, they would feel no regret.
Speaker 2: So if I just think about enough, if I ruminate
Speaker 2: about this enough, if I taken enough factors, I will
Speaker 2: make the perfect decision and I will feel one hundred
Speaker 2: percent that I made the right choice. But the fact
Speaker 2: is a lot of times in life it is an
Speaker 2: app lin an orange, and you will feel regret because
Speaker 2: whatever you do. If you move to Baltimore, you can't
Speaker 2: move to California, And if you become a lawyer, you're
Speaker 2: not going to become a doctor, and you may feel
Speaker 2: regret for that, but that doesn't mean that it's not
Speaker 2: the right choice. And so I think accepting that there
Speaker 2: is no regret free decision sometimes releases people from just
Speaker 2: like this constant loop because they're trying to avoid any regret.
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember somebody who was saying, like I
Speaker 2: was pregnant, I found out I was having a boy,
Speaker 2: and I felt really bad because I felt really disappointed, like,
Speaker 2: of course I'm really happy to be having a boy,
Speaker 2: but feel disappointed. And her doctor said, well, of course
Speaker 2: you're disappointed because before you knew you could have a
Speaker 2: boy and a girl, but now you know that you're
Speaker 2: having one, and that means that you're not having the other.
Speaker 2: And so it's not a reflection on the decision. It's
Speaker 2: just the fact that one sliding door precludes the other
Speaker 2: sliding door. So don't think that you're going to get
Speaker 2: out of thinking about the road not taken. But here
Speaker 2: are two things that I often will invoke when I'm
Speaker 2: trying to make a really tough decision, and the first
Speaker 2: is to choose the bigger life, because no one knows
Speaker 2: what the bigger life is for you except you. Because
Speaker 2: should you get a dog, there are many good reasons
Speaker 2: to get a dog. There are many good reasons not
Speaker 2: to get a dog. What for you is the bigger life?
Speaker 2: Should you stay in the big city with all of
Speaker 2: its excitements and opportunities, or should you move to your
Speaker 2: hometown where you have family and friend and a network
Speaker 2: around you who can say what is the bigger life
Speaker 2: for you? And so I think this is a really
Speaker 2: helpful question because a lot of times when people say
Speaker 2: that they have a perfectly balanced pros and cons. If
Speaker 2: you say, well, which is the bigger life, they instantly
Speaker 2: know what the bigger life is. It sort of gets
Speaker 2: you out of that pros and cons framework. So that's
Speaker 2: a really helpful question. Another kind of way to think
Speaker 2: about it is to step into the future. A lot
Speaker 2: of times you're thinking, well, should I do this or
Speaker 2: should I do that? And you're like, well, which one
Speaker 2: would allow me to step into the future. Because one
Speaker 2: of the things that's hard is change. We're very captured
Speaker 2: by inertia. It's hard to change the future. And uncertainty
Speaker 2: can be very intimidating, and so when you think to yourself, like, well,
Speaker 2: what would allow me to step into the future. A
Speaker 2: lot of times that kind of again puts a different
Speaker 2: spotlight on what you're doing. So you're like, well, should
Speaker 2: I keep working in my job really hard and like
Speaker 2: really trying to get a promotion and make it work.
Speaker 2: Or should I go back to school and get a
Speaker 2: different degree, we'll step into the future. I don't know
Speaker 2: which of those courses would be stepping into the future, right,
Speaker 2: I could see it argument for both of them, but
Speaker 2: you might really have an idea. Oh really, the future
Speaker 2: is staying with this company and getting the promotion, or
Speaker 2: the future is getting the degree. These are just helpful
Speaker 2: for some reason. They allow people to evaluate their decisions differently.
Speaker 1: My whole ethos is if you want better answers, ask
Speaker 1: better questions.
Speaker 2: Well that's so questioner. I love it.
Speaker 1: But I love those two questions because we're constantly seeking,
Speaker 1: but we don't know the questions to ask ourselves. I
Speaker 1: love those questions. Thank you for sharing those. Okay. The
Speaker 1: next one is I.
Speaker 3: Keep telling myself compromise is part of being in a
Speaker 3: long term relationship. But sometimes it feels like I'm betraying
Speaker 3: who I am. How do you tell the difference between
Speaker 3: healthy compromise and slowly disappearing inside your own life?
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a good one.
Speaker 2: That is a really good question. And it's interesting because
Speaker 2: on the since Us podcast that we were talking about,
Speaker 2: we had a question where it was a young married
Speaker 2: couple and the wife wanted her parents from out of
Speaker 2: town to stay in their apartment with them the guest room,
Speaker 2: and the husband was like, wow, you know, it kind
Speaker 2: of crowds my space to have them if they stay
Speaker 2: like more than a few days, and I really want
Speaker 2: them to stay in a hotel. I mean, just for
Speaker 2: myself personally, I'm in exactly that situation. And I just
Speaker 2: said to my husband, like, I really don't want to
Speaker 2: compromise on this. This is super important to me. This
Speaker 2: goes right to my values. So I'm really asking you
Speaker 2: to defer to my wishes here because this is really important.
Speaker 2: And so we didn't compromise. And so I think sometimes
Speaker 2: your value you do have to say like, this is
Speaker 2: really my value and talk about it now. Sometimes there
Speaker 2: is a clash of values where it's like okay, and
Speaker 2: then you have to figure out, well, how do you
Speaker 2: negotiate a class of values. But when you feel like
Speaker 2: you're disappearing into your own life, that starts to sound
Speaker 2: like accommodation. That is happening without an open discussion of
Speaker 2: what values are in play or what someone really cares about.
Speaker 2: And I think you owe it to other people to
Speaker 2: say this really matters to me. I think what happens
Speaker 2: a lot of times is that people expect others to
Speaker 2: read their minds and to think, well, of course they
Speaker 2: know that it's a huge pain for me to host Thanksgiving,
Speaker 2: and so of course, like, don't they get that this
Speaker 2: is like a huge annoyance for me, and like other
Speaker 2: people should take a turn, and it's not fair to
Speaker 2: ask me to do it, right, They're thinking that. But
Speaker 2: if you say cheerfully, oh I'm happy to do it,
Speaker 2: then others are not going to rush to your side
Speaker 2: and say, oh, it's not fair. They're gonna be like, oh,
Speaker 2: she likes to do it, she's good at it, Like
Speaker 2: let her do it again, you know. And so I
Speaker 2: think sometimes it's surprisingly hard to enunciate our values for
Speaker 2: ourselves and then to articulate them to other people, and
Speaker 2: then to give them a chance to like have a
Speaker 2: conversation about it, because sometimes people will disagree and then
Speaker 2: you have to decide, like how do we find our
Speaker 2: way through this.
Speaker 1: I like your distinction between values and maybe virtues or preferences,
Speaker 1: because maybe the person who's value it's rubbing up against
Speaker 1: gets that one. But if it's a clash of values,
Speaker 1: You're right, that's confusing.
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. It's sunny because with things
Speaker 2: like those, people will often tell like, well, I'm sure
Speaker 2: your parents would be much more comfortable in a hotel,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, look, my dad slept on a blow
Speaker 2: up mattress in our living room, so like this is
Speaker 2: our choice because that's about like, oh, well this would
Speaker 2: be more comfortable, and I'm like, no, this is a core.
Speaker 1: Value, right, there's different family dynamics.
Speaker 2: It's a different family dynamic, and not to say that
Speaker 2: this is the right choice for everyone, but like this
Speaker 2: is just someplace where I put my hand in the
Speaker 2: air and said, this is really important to me. And
Speaker 2: so it's hard. I mean, you know, two people, You've
Speaker 2: got to deal with all kinds of things, like how
Speaker 2: tidy do we keep our house? Some people are neat
Speaker 2: freaks and they can't relax if things aren't tidy, and
Speaker 2: everybody else is like, if you want to run around
Speaker 2: and tidy everything up, like be my guest. But I
Speaker 2: don't think that it's necessary to live that way. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we got to figure that out. That's a very common clash,
Speaker 2: but it's part of a relationship.
Speaker 1: Okay. The next one is write up your alley, Gretchen.
Speaker 1: When you know exactly what you need to do to
Speaker 1: be happier, healthier, for example, go to bed earlier, stop
Speaker 1: doom scrolling, but you actively choose not to do it.
Speaker 1: What is the first mental strategy you can use to
Speaker 1: stop self sabotaging and simply start doing the thing.
Speaker 2: Find out your tendency, because the first thing I would
Speaker 2: say is what is your tendency? And you're probably going
Speaker 2: to say, I'm an obliger and I'm really trying to
Speaker 2: rely on inner accountability to get myself to stop that.
Speaker 2: And I would say, and that is why you were
Speaker 2: not succeeding. Now you have to have a form of
Speaker 2: outer accountability. There's a lot of ways to get out
Speaker 2: of accountability for all those things. But maybe you're a rebel,
Speaker 2: and if you're a rebel. Then I would say, well,
Speaker 2: you got to go about it a completely different way.
Speaker 2: You got to do it in a rubble way. Or
Speaker 2: if you're a question or sometimes questioners have issues with
Speaker 2: things like this, I'm like, you got to lean into
Speaker 2: your question or self. So I would say with something
Speaker 2: like that, I always think, first look at it from
Speaker 2: a tendency perspective, because that is probably going to point
Speaker 2: the way forward to you so that you can.
Speaker 1: Change that behave well said. Everybody has to take your quiz.
Speaker 2: Yes, Gretchen Reuben dot com slash quiz Gretchen.
Speaker 1: I wish you great health and great happiness. I'm so
Speaker 1: grateful for your time today. This was so fun.
Speaker 2: This is so fun. Thank you for all these amazing questions.
Speaker 2: I would expect nothing less from such a questioner. Thank you,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
Speaker 1: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.