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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stop

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Speaker 1: Work dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And

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Speaker 1: Robert I want to ask you to go with them

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Speaker 1: on a mental durance to the pats. Let's do it, okay.

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Speaker 1: So I want to ask you to think about the

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Speaker 1: evolution of technological civilization in terms of the human hand. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well that is the not the only model we have

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Speaker 1: for the evolution of technologically advanced civilization. Yeah, so I'm

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Speaker 1: totally down with it. Think about tool using intelligence, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the earliest tools used by primates are primate ancestors

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Speaker 1: that the apes we call our cousins. They're all things

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Speaker 1: that can be manipulated by the fingers. You had, the

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Speaker 1: hand axes. I'm sure you've seen these things there, these

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Speaker 1: carved down stones, and there are different theories about what

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Speaker 1: exactly they were used for. Were they for process and carcasses,

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Speaker 1: where they for throwing it prey or some combination, you know,

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Speaker 1: where they just merely useless status items. But they were

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Speaker 1: these chipped stone tools used in the hand. And then

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Speaker 1: of course we had handheld and thrown weapons, handheld tools

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Speaker 1: for processing the carcasses of prey, like a stone cleavers,

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Speaker 1: and then later on you had tools for cooking and

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Speaker 1: tools for farming, and all just kind of a spiral

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Speaker 1: staircase of technology revolving around the solid core of the

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Speaker 1: shape of the human hand. Everything was based on the

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Speaker 1: assumption of thumbs, palms, fingers, even if you look at

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Speaker 1: the beginnings of human culture, like if we go to

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Speaker 1: the oldest examples of art, we know cave paintings show

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Speaker 1: the use of handprints, pigments applied to cave walls by hand.

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Speaker 1: And then I don't know if you've ever seen this,

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Speaker 1: but finger fluting, where it's not painting, but where Stone

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Speaker 1: age artists would make patterns and cave walls and what

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Speaker 1: used to be soft cave walls by dragging their fingers

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Speaker 1: through the soft surfaces which lay or hardened. And then,

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Speaker 1: of course some of the oldest known musical instruments appear

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Speaker 1: to be Paleolithic flutes made out of the bones of

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Speaker 1: bears or vultures. So you get a bare bone, you

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Speaker 1: bore some holes in it, and you could make a flute.

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Speaker 1: And of course what do you do with those holes?

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Speaker 1: You cover them with a fingertip to change the pitch

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Speaker 1: of the note you're producing with the flute. So when

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Speaker 1: you consider all this and then of course coming all

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Speaker 1: all the way up to our our steering wheels and

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Speaker 1: our gaming console controllers and every other thing you hold

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Speaker 1: in your fingertips today, it's almost impossible to imagine the

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Speaker 1: evolution of a technological civilization and advanced intelligent culture without hands. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think some would say that it was

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Speaker 1: our primate hands that made this trajectory possible for our species,

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Speaker 1: Like it was only the fact that humans went by

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Speaker 1: peedle and started having free hands to work with that

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Speaker 1: encouraged the development in the brain the powerhouses for tool

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Speaker 1: use and innovation that made us who we are today.

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Speaker 1: But I want to think about what if evolution had

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Speaker 1: gone a different way? Ah, So what you have another

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Speaker 1: form of life on the planet managed to ascend that

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Speaker 1: staircase we've mentioned earlier. What kind of the tools would

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Speaker 1: they have used? How would they have used them? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's stairs, So their spiral staircase might not have

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Speaker 1: had hands. What if there was an advanced technological species

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Speaker 1: on Earth, but not one that evolved from primates, and

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Speaker 1: not even one that evolved from mammals. Is it possible

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Speaker 1: to imagine a technological civilization built by the cousins of

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Speaker 1: birds in the same way we have one now built

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Speaker 1: by the cousins of apes. Um like where you've got

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Speaker 1: highly intelligent cousins of pigeons conducting science and business and

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Speaker 1: art and education in these huge technological monstrosities of cities,

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Speaker 1: while you've got monkeys scampering around in flocks throughout the

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Speaker 1: city surfaces, pecking around for crumbs. And every now and

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Speaker 1: then you'd have a highly intelligent bird creature go out

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Speaker 1: on a slunch break and feed the monkeys some some breadcrumbs,

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Speaker 1: or feed on the monkeys. Could be because yeah, because

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Speaker 1: this is it's especially interesting when you when you when

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Speaker 1: you when you look back, say about fifty million years

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Speaker 1: uh to the to the early EO c. N Epoch,

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Speaker 1: and you'll find that this is the only time in

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Speaker 1: history when birds ruled the world. They permeated most of

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Speaker 1: the key positions on the food chain with a large

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Speaker 1: flightless terror birds stalking the land terror birds, terrib birds, massive, yeah,

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Speaker 1: top predator, just terrifying land birds. But I can imagine

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Speaker 1: something like what if something like that had been the

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Speaker 1: species that really took off, and maybe that was what

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Speaker 1: would live in these cities and eat the monkeys. But

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Speaker 1: but as for just birds in general, you know, why

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Speaker 1: not why not the birds? Because birds are builders, They

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Speaker 1: build nests, they put them together, their tool users, as

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Speaker 1: will discuss, they exhibit social behavior, trickery, in some cases

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Speaker 1: startlingly complex social behavior. So you know, I can imagine

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Speaker 1: on that end of things, I can imagine the bird

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Speaker 1: brain being completely capable of ascending, uh, in terms of

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Speaker 1: manipulating objects. Will certainly get more to the details in

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Speaker 1: a bit, but I instantly think of some of the

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Speaker 1: controls that we see, uh for disabled individuals who do

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Speaker 1: not have the use of their hands, where they use

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Speaker 1: like a straw to to control the movements of say

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Speaker 1: a wheelchair. Yeah, I can imagine technology like that being

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Speaker 1: utilized by some sort of highly evolved bird creature, and

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Speaker 1: with the kind of intelligence that a highly advanced technological

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Speaker 1: civilization would have. I wouldn't say that something like that

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Speaker 1: is necessarily impossible. Uh. In fact, today I think we

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Speaker 1: want to make the case for why it's not completely

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Speaker 1: insane to imagine a technological culture in a hypothetical alternate universe.

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Speaker 1: Built around the core of wings, beaks, and claws instead

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Speaker 1: of fingers and thumbs and palms. Yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's even a little bit insane. That's what it is. However,

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Speaker 1: is it's a little more alien than even most of

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Speaker 1: our science fiction dreamers want to want to want to

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Speaker 1: play with. You know, we tend we're talking about this earlier.

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Speaker 1: Even when you think of of alien species and science

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Speaker 1: fiction that are avian, they're almost always the same sort

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Speaker 1: of bird human hybrids that we've been dreaming about since

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Speaker 1: they know, since you know, Babylonian days. Yeah. Uh so

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Speaker 1: I should say at the beginning that this episode was

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Speaker 1: inspired when I saw a recently published paper. And this

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Speaker 1: paper was called Cognition Without Cortex, and it was a

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Speaker 1: review of recent findings on avian cognition and neuro anatomy,

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Speaker 1: sort of collecting all of the literature of recent decades

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Speaker 1: looking into how smart exactly are birds, what kind of

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Speaker 1: cognitive traits and thinking to the exhibit and what are

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Speaker 1: we learning, uh, what are we learning about how a

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Speaker 1: bird's brain works and how that compares to the mammalian brain.

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Speaker 1: And and so this paper was written by owner Gunterkun

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Speaker 1: and Thomas Bugnier, and it was in Trends and Cognitive Sciences,

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Speaker 1: published on March on. Well you know this, Uh, this

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Speaker 1: raises the question of Joe, what is your attitude towards birds?

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Speaker 1: What is your experience with the perception of bird intelligence? Well,

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Speaker 1: I know exactly what it is, because I've always thought

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Speaker 1: that birds looked kind of dumb, and I have to

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Speaker 1: admit it. I'm sorry now, I'm sorry now that I've

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Speaker 1: read all this research. But I always looked at them

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Speaker 1: and said, oh man, there's something just kind of like

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Speaker 1: an ancient emptiness in the eyes of a bird. And

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Speaker 1: I was not alone in this. Because you may have

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Speaker 1: heard this before, but I want to share it with you.

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Speaker 1: A quote from the famous film director of Werner Hertzog

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Speaker 1: speaking about chickens. Yes, can you please do it in

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Speaker 1: his voice? No, I can't do the accent, but I'm

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Speaker 1: going to read his quote. Hertzog says about chickens, the

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Speaker 1: enormity if they're flat brain, the enormity of their stupidity

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Speaker 1: is just overwhelming. You have to do yourself a favor.

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Speaker 1: When you're out in the countryside and you see chickens,

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Speaker 1: Try to look at chicken in the eye with great intensity,

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Speaker 1: and the intensity of stupidity that is looking back at

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Speaker 1: you is just amazing. By the way, it's very easy

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Speaker 1: to hypnotize the chicken. They're very prone to hypnosis, and

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Speaker 1: in one or two films I've actually shown that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so he's talking about chickens here, and I have heard

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Speaker 1: from people who have raised chickens before. I think my

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Speaker 1: my grandmother was very much in this boat that the

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Speaker 1: chickens are are stupid and in a pain to keep.

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Speaker 1: And but chickens are just one of many many species. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's that's true. There are there are one subspecies there also,

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Speaker 1: we should point out domesticated and there is often something

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Speaker 1: that we see in biology that happens to domesticated animals.

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Speaker 1: Animals that have kind of a cushy life where they're

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Speaker 1: fed every day tend to not be quite so quick

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Speaker 1: in the in the thinking department as their wild cousins.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if that explains how people feel

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Speaker 1: about chickens. Maybe chickens are a lot smarter than we

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Speaker 1: give them credit for. But anyway, the conventional wisdom for

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Speaker 1: a long time has been in in sort of crude terms,

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Speaker 1: birds are dumb, birds are stupid because they do not

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Speaker 1: have the right kind of brain. Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of this boils down to just basic perception.

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Speaker 1: Like my wife has often been kind of like freaked

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Speaker 1: out by birds, and the way she describes it is

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Speaker 1: that she grew up around dogs. She grew up around horses,

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Speaker 1: and she says that those animals are easier to read.

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Speaker 1: You can you can you can get a better idea

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Speaker 1: about what a dog is going to do. You can

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Speaker 1: tell if a dog is aggravated, excited, what have you?

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Speaker 1: A horse the same way. They are all these different

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Speaker 1: cues that we can pick up on and really communicate

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Speaker 1: facially with them. It's more difficult to do with a bird.

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Speaker 1: And certainly the bird I can just seem like a

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Speaker 1: glassy um, you know, a cavern of nothingness. I think

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Speaker 1: of what Quint says in Jaws, the shark side. It's

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Speaker 1: like a doll's eyes. Yeah, yeah, very much. Though you

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Speaker 1: get that kind of glassy dolls, I uh impression from them.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I go to the zoo a lot

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Speaker 1: with my my son, and there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: birds there, and some of them, in particular, like the

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Speaker 1: ground hornbill that they have there. I'm just always startled

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Speaker 1: by how intelligent they seem to be, and that I am.

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Speaker 1: I am observing them, but they seem to be observing

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Speaker 1: me almost on equal footing. So in in in that area,

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Speaker 1: I have to disagree with the perceived stupidity of the bird.

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Speaker 1: Just talking about perceptions here at this point, But I

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Speaker 1: think I would have to say that that your wife's

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Speaker 1: intuition about the sort of disconnectedness of the bird. The

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Speaker 1: space between you does make sense from a biological perspective,

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Speaker 1: because there is a biological gap between humans and birds

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Speaker 1: much larger than our gap, the gap between humans and

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Speaker 1: other mammals. So the gap between humans and dogs is

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Speaker 1: you're still both mammals. You have a much more recent

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Speaker 1: common ancestor. The gap between primates like us and birds

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Speaker 1: is ancient. There are last common ancestor with birds is

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Speaker 1: believed to exist. It to have existed about three hundred

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Speaker 1: million years ago. We have not been related to birds

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Speaker 1: since before the dinosaurs, way before the dinosaurs. It goes

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Speaker 1: back way back. These are these are just extremely different

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Speaker 1: branches of the tree of life on Earth, and so

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Speaker 1: I think it makes sense to look on a vian

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Speaker 1: creatures with the with the kind of hesitance. So there

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Speaker 1: there there's an alien quality to it that's much like

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Speaker 1: the quality of a reptile or a fish. They're just

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Speaker 1: not much like us. Yeah, there's a definite alien quality

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Speaker 1: to them. But I mentioned the conventional wisdom was that

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Speaker 1: when people used to think all birds were really stupid,

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Speaker 1: they thought that they were stupid because of how their

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Speaker 1: brains were built. So where does human intelligence come from? What?

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Speaker 1: Why are mammals smart? Typically people look at the cortex.

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Speaker 1: The mammalian prefrontal cortex appears to be the seat of

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Speaker 1: executive functions. So all the thinking you do that involves

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Speaker 1: conscious control of thought, like using working memory and constituting

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Speaker 1: the planning and execution of actions. That that that's cortex stuff.

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Speaker 1: And so the old line of the of the neuroscientist

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Speaker 1: or the nero anatomist was sort of that I can

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Speaker 1: look at your brain, and by looking at your brain,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you how you're thinking works, how your

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Speaker 1: cognition works. And if you don't have a cortex, you

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Speaker 1: just don't have much cognition going on. I watched a

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Speaker 1: presentation by Owner Gunderkun, and he called attention to the

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Speaker 1: work of the German neuro anatomist Ludwig Eddinger who lived

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifty five to nineteen eighteen, and he said that

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Speaker 1: Eddinger was the leading comparative neuro anatomist of his time.

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Speaker 1: UH and his project was sort of to understand the

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Speaker 1: evolution of the brain invertebrates. Vertebrates all creatures to have

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Speaker 1: a backbone. UM, so birds and mammals both vertebrates. Where

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Speaker 1: where do the differences in brain evolution come along? And

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Speaker 1: Eddinger's theory was, first you got fish, and fish basically

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Speaker 1: just have a spinal cord with a little you've got

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Speaker 1: some brain stem on the end. Their fish don't have

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Speaker 1: much going on brain wise. And then after that you

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Speaker 1: had amphibians and and so they've got a part of

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Speaker 1: the basal ganglia that's sort of a little bit extending

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Speaker 1: what the brains are capable of. And then you've got

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Speaker 1: reptiles and this adds more to the basal ganglia second

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Speaker 1: component of it, and you've you've got slightly upgraded cognitive skills.

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Speaker 1: And then after reptiles, you've got the fourth thing, which

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Speaker 1: is birds. And then birds have uh, they sort of

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Speaker 1: developed the basal ganglia improve the skills more. And then

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Speaker 1: finally with mammals, you get the cerebral cortex, which gives

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Speaker 1: them this unprecedented thinking power, intelligence, cognition, flexibility, the ability

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Speaker 1: to use their brains to adapt intelligence to all kinds

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Speaker 1: of different scenarios. And so, according to Edinger, you should

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Speaker 1: look at a monkey and you should see cognition. It's

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Speaker 1: behaviors that come out of thinking. It's not all just instinct.

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Speaker 1: It's weakly determined by the genes. But meanwhile, you should

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Speaker 1: look at a bird, like a pigeon, that doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a cortex, and it should have a little bit of intelligence,

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Speaker 1: but it's going to be a just instinct, you know,

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Speaker 1: gene determined behaviors. Is that true? Well, on one hand,

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Speaker 1: this gets into the whole idea of the sort of

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Speaker 1: the ice cream scoop model of of neurophysiology, right, that

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Speaker 1: humans have the most scoops of brain ice cream and

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Speaker 1: therefore have the most powerful brains. But then also our

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Speaker 1: our understanding of how these brains are working has evolved

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Speaker 1: somewhat over the years too, and we've been forced to

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Speaker 1: sort of think think outside of the of our own

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Speaker 1: uh uh, you know, anthropomorphic bias in terms of what

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Speaker 1: constitutes intelligence. Yeah, And of course We've conducted plenty of

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Speaker 1: experiments on top of that to really get down for

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Speaker 1: its to take apart intelligence, even human intelligence divided into

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Speaker 1: components that can then be tested for in other species. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think what we're learning in recent years, over

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Speaker 1: many experiments is not just like one experiment has changed

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Speaker 1: the way we're thinking about this. There there are so

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Speaker 1: many more experiments than we could even talk about in

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Speaker 1: this episode and out on many of these areas. Right,

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Speaker 1: But there's so much new research showing that bird intelligence,

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Speaker 1: bird cognition seems to go far beyond what was previously assumed.

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Speaker 1: That this old theory of the determination of cognition by

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Speaker 1: the by the structure of the brain does seem to

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Speaker 1: be flawed. It seems to be that this is not

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Speaker 1: correct anymore because it was based on a false premise.

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Speaker 1: Birds are much smarter than we thought, and some cultural

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Speaker 1: traditions seem to have actually long associated birds like like corvids,

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Speaker 1: which include crows with higher brain function. I know we

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Speaker 1: came across this, uh this great north Smith right, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: Hohogan and moon in those are Odin's ravens, Yeah, companions.

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Speaker 1: He also had some of some lupine companions Gary and

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Speaker 1: freki Um. But the interesting thing about to sound like

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Speaker 1: fraggle names. They do kind of the interesting thing about

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Speaker 1: Whogan and Moon, and I also think of and maybe

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Speaker 1: they were, but Whogan and moon and also sound like

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Speaker 1: they should be like the the host characters in like

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Speaker 1: an old horror comic. You know, they should be chatting

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Speaker 1: with each other. Maybe i'm directly maybe they were. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Someone will have to fill me in on that.

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Speaker 1: But they not only are they Odin's companions, they are

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Speaker 1: a part of him. They are his thoughts and memories, respectively.

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Speaker 1: And so some argue that Moonen is actually desire rather

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Speaker 1: than memory. But essentially the idea, here's that Hohoganum who

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Speaker 1: can represents the thoughts of Odin Moon and represents the memories. Man,

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Speaker 1: that's too cool, because they're they're embodied cognition, right yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And uh, here's a little little bit of old Norse,

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Speaker 1: uh that has been a translated that tells you a

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Speaker 1: little bit about Hoogan and Moon. And this is a

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Speaker 1: parent This is supposed to be from Odin himself, who

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Speaker 1: can and moon and fly every day over the world.

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Speaker 1: I worry for Hohogan that he might not return, But

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Speaker 1: I worry more from moon in oh, well that if

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Speaker 1: you interpret moon into mean memory, and it's uh, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a bittersweet fact about the loss of memories

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Speaker 1: into time. Yeah, that these are just they're they're birds

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Speaker 1: that are out there in the world and hey, one

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Speaker 1: day one or both of them may not come back.

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Speaker 1: And and it's interesting too. I don't want to go

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Speaker 1: too far down the rabbit hole, but you apparently don't

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Speaker 1: see animals playing a huge role in Old English Norse

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Speaker 1: heroic literature, except in the case of certain carrion animals,

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Speaker 1: the beasts of battle, like the wolf which we mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: Gary Frekie, the eagle, the raven. Uh. So it's interesting

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Speaker 1: to think about these are the animals that fed on

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Speaker 1: the battlefield dead, and therefore they have some sort of

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Speaker 1: privileged status symbolically. That's weird. One might think that that

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Speaker 1: would make them taboo or something like that, but instead

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Speaker 1: that elevates them to the being, uh the stuff of myth. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it. You certainly we see we see some

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Speaker 1: of that in other cultures, but yeah, I haven't looked

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Speaker 1: into it as much in terms in terms of Western culture, because,

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Speaker 1: for instance, the vultures have elevated status uh in Tibetan

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Speaker 1: mythology because they're closer to the sky and they are

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Speaker 1: involved in the rights of death. But the iberials right, well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's time to actually look at some of

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Speaker 1: these studies of of avian cognition, of exactly what bird

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Speaker 1: brains are capable of in practice, and the to summarize

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Speaker 1: recent discoveries. We'll get into the details in a moment,

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Speaker 1: but basically what we have found, what scientists have found

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Speaker 1: is that some birds like parrots uh, and that that

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Speaker 1: would mean birds of the order Sa Taciforms that include

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Speaker 1: true parrots, cockatoos, and New Zealand parrots uh. And then

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Speaker 1: also Corvid's which are birds of the family corvid A,

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Speaker 1: and that would include crows, ravens, rooks, magpies, cuffs, jay's,

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Speaker 1: and nutcrackers. These bird groups display cognition on par with primates,

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Speaker 1: which means primates of course being the order containing monkeys

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Speaker 1: and apes like us, so on par with primates seriously,

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Speaker 1: and just just allow us to demonstrate with a selection

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Speaker 1: of findings what we are talking about is mental time travel. Yes,

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Speaker 1: also known as chronosthesia. If you want to be fancy

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Speaker 1: about it now that this is sort of it's something

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Speaker 1: that you take for granted. It comes very easy to

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Speaker 1: advance primates like humans. But it's just being able to

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Speaker 1: travel back and forth along a mental timeline. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: the ability to entertain alternate future scenarios, you know. You

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Speaker 1: that's how a creature ways option A versus option B.

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Speaker 1: It's how you're able to remember past events and anticipate

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Speaker 1: and plan for future events. And that ability is core

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Speaker 1: to so much of human experience, you know, our ability

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Speaker 1: to or our our flaw and being able to just

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Speaker 1: regret the past, worry over the future, the entire wheel

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Speaker 1: of suffering. It's a very human thing, it's yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it seems very easy to assume that because you look

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Speaker 1: at the behavior of most animals and they really do

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Speaker 1: seem to live in the present moment, that they don't

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Speaker 1: seem to be able to consider a hypothetical unless we're

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Speaker 1: projecting it on them. Okay, so, especially in the case

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Speaker 1: of our pets. Um. But yeah, so is it president animals.

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Speaker 1: It kind of depends on who you ask. Some say no,

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Speaker 1: not at all, even some scientists. It's not just like

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Speaker 1: a popular no no. If you just ask people. I

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Speaker 1: have a feeling they're going to Yeah, they're gonna be.

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Speaker 1: It's you're gonna get into projection concerning the animals that

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Speaker 1: we think we we understand the most and that we

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Speaker 1: can read more easily. But with with scientists. Yeah, it depends.

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Speaker 1: A December two paper published in Neuroscience and Behavioral Reviews

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Speaker 1: titled mental time travel an exclusively human capacity lets you

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Speaker 1: know where they stand. Yeah, it argues exactly that that

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Speaker 1: that quote. Some animals indeed appear to possess episodic memory.

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Speaker 1: There is, however, no evidence that they are able to construct, reflect,

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Speaker 1: and compare different future scenarios like humans are okay, So

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Speaker 1: episodic memory that just means having sort of not ingrained

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Speaker 1: how it always was or learned behaviors from the past,

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Speaker 1: but being able to recall a specific instance, like if

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Speaker 1: you can remember what you had for lunch yesterday, that's

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Speaker 1: an episodic memory. And some evidence shows that some animals

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Speaker 1: have this, but they're saying that they can't. They can't

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Speaker 1: project thoughts into the future, right, Like, it's one thing

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Speaker 1: to remember what's happened, but then can you anticipate future

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Speaker 1: events and plan around them? But not all scientists agree

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Speaker 1: with this conclusion is right. Um. So, back in two

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Speaker 1: thousands seven or so, Nicola Clayton of the University of

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Speaker 1: Cambridge argued that scrub jays, which is a spacies of

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Speaker 1: large brain crow, exhibit mental time travel. And then in

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Speaker 1: two thousand eleven there's an interesting study from Karina Logan

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Speaker 1: of the Universe of Cambridge and Sean O'Donnell of the

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Speaker 1: University of Washington, and they argue that this mental time

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Speaker 1: travel is demonstrated in certain tropical birds who engage in

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Speaker 1: bivouac that's temporary ant nest sites checking, bivouac checking. So

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Speaker 1: basically the idea here is that the ants, the ant

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Speaker 1: colonies are moving around. They have like a cyclical raid

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Speaker 1: cycle that they go through. They have patterns of activity exactly,

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Speaker 1: and so the animals hunting them in this case the birds,

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Speaker 1: they have to figure out how to anticipate those movements.

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Speaker 1: The birds keep track of where the ants are, they

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Speaker 1: remember their past movements, and according to the these researchers,

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Speaker 1: they're actually using that data to anticipate future movements of

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Speaker 1: the ants so they'll know where to go to score

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Speaker 1: their meal. Okay, so mental time travel and birds. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that seems to be a toss up some some scientists

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Speaker 1: say yes, some say no, But either way it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting lead for for continuing research. But there's one area

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Speaker 1: where we can see birds excelling in higher cognitive function,

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Speaker 1: where there is no doubt whatsoever, and that's in tool use.

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Speaker 1: The birds are freakishly handy. That's right. There are a

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Speaker 1: number of examples of tool use and birds, some more

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Speaker 1: complex than others. For instance, Egyptian vultures use stones as

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Speaker 1: tools to bust open Ostrojaggs's great. Yeah. There are also

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Speaker 1: that you have, like the brush turkey builds. This is

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Speaker 1: rather simple, builds a gigantic mount of soil and decaying

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Speaker 1: vegetation to lay their eggs in. But then they'll kick

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Speaker 1: the garbage and enemies to drive them away. Yeah. Wait

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Speaker 1: what are their enemies? Things like monitor lizards? Uh? Yeah

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Speaker 1: what Yeah, so they're they're kicking garbage at monitor lizards. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's like I said, this is very basic tool use,

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Speaker 1: Like but yeah, kicking rubbish, you're still making a tool

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Speaker 1: out of something in your environment trash soccer. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the more elaborate examples here, you have the

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Speaker 1: woodpecker finch, which is one of Darwin's finches from the

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Speaker 1: Lafcas Islands. Tool It uses cactus spines or wooden splinters

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Speaker 1: to dig grubs or other insects out of holes and wood. So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, it obtains its food in the same

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Speaker 1: manner as a woodpecker, but it hasn't involved the necessary

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Speaker 1: long tongue to scoop them out. So it goes it

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Speaker 1: breaks off something sharp to get in there, and it

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Speaker 1: may even trimm the twig. And this is key because

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Speaker 1: there are other examples of animals that say, like use

428
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: a muscle shell fragment to hammer open another muscle, or

429
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: use a piece of bark to pry another piece of

430
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: bark off we've all engaged when we we haven't all.

431
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: But if you've ever used part of a crab claw

432
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: to dig out crab meat, you've engaged in like this

433
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: level of simple tool use, which shouldn't be discounted. I mean,

434
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: even that's impressive, that is still impressive, but it goes

435
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: beyond that, right because they are actually trimming the twig,

436
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: these finches, these finches, they're trimming the twig. They're they're

437
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: manufacturing a tool, so they're they're going from what's called

438
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: a nature fact to an artifact. And nature fact is

439
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: finding something in the world and using it as is okay,

440
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: but the artifact, you're transforming it into a tool. Yeah,

441
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: So that's sort of the difference between a rock and

442
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: a hand axe. So if you've got an ancient ancient

443
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: primate who has managed to hunt down and kill a

444
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 1: piece of prey, a large animal, and it wants to

445
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 1: process the carcass to get some meat off of it,

446
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: it could just pick up a kind of flat rock

447
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: and use that for help. That would be a nature fact.

448
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: Or it could chip down a rock until it's got

449
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: a sharper edge. That's an artifact exactly. And just to

450
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: put this, you know, and then a framework of human

451
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: tool used their four levels of artifact fact tool use.

452
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: There's reduction that's where you reduce the mass of functional

453
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: of the functional form, so you're chewing the stick downs

454
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: within the bark, et cetera. That's what we just talked.

455
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: That's what we definitely see in birds. Uh. Then there's

456
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: level two conjunction that's combining two or more units to

457
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: make a tool. This is like a flint headed spear

458
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: or a hafted axe. Uh. Number three is replication, that's conjunction,

459
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 1: but with two or more from similar units required, So

460
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: a double long fishing spear trident. Yeah. And number four

461
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: is linkage that's physically distinct objects in combination, like a

462
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: bow and arrow. Obviously we're not going to see a

463
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: bow and arrow with birds here today. Now, what a

464
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: sling count is linkage? Yes, I think it would. Yeah,

465
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: you have two distinct objects that are coming together to

466
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: make something, uh even even more powerful, you know. Yeah,

467
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: but some some of the tool use you see in

468
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: birds is really the word I would use as disturbing.

469
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: I don't mean to give it a negative quality, but

470
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: it's kind it's unsettling when you see it. Yeah, I mean,

471
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: if you're talking disturbing, the shrikes have always inspired a

472
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: certain amount of terror. These are the these little birds

473
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: impale the bodies of insects and small vertebrates on thorns.

474
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: It partially for storage, but also just so they can

475
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: better strip them apart as they you know, decided to

476
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: eat them. Oh so it's like a leather face putting

477
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: somebody on a hook. Yeah, exactly, it is. It's like

478
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: sometimes they're called butcher birds for this very reason because

479
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: it's like putting them on a butcher's foot's messed up. Now,

480
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: crow is in ravens. I'm sorry. Let let me let

481
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: me take the judgment off of that. That's nature. Yes,

482
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: that's nature. Um and and yes, so there's nothing wrong

483
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: with LETI face crows and ravens. Uh. This is where

484
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: we see some some wonderful tool uses where well, crows

485
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 1: have demonstrated tool use and even the creation of artifacts.

486
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: They've been deserved to fashion tools from twigs to fish, beetle,

487
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 1: larva out of logs, and in lab environments they've been

488
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: observed to use one tool to make another tool. Now

489
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: this is weird. Okay, this is not just using a

490
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: tool to get the thing they want, but crafting tools,

491
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: like using one tool to craft a second tool, which

492
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: is like a whole other layer of abstract thought. Yeah. Indeed, uh,

493
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: specifically the crowing question and this one study bent the

494
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: end of a wire using the edge of a glass,

495
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: then use the hooked wire to retrieve another stick which

496
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: was long enough to read some food that it wanted.

497
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: So those different steps there in tool use in cognition,

498
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: that's pretty advanced. That seems like something some people wouldn't

499
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: be able to figure out how to do Yeah, I

500
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: kind of imagine myself in the lab trying to do

501
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: some problem solving puzzle and just that failing. Yeah. I mean,

502
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: it's the kind kind of steps that you can imagine

503
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: just an individual on the street going through if they

504
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: dropped their keys down a sewer grate and I see them,

505
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: They're like, how am I gonna get that back? All right? Well,

506
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: what's around me? Is there a code hanger can get

507
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: a hold of? Is there some other you know, when

508
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: we begin to go through these these sort of basic

509
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: tool you steps to do something we we normally don't

510
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: have to engage in. But some of these steps really

511
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: do involve very strange ideas of the abstract conditionals of

512
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: how to manipulate your environment. Like one of the examples

513
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: would be displacement of water. This is something that's been

514
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: observed in those New Caledonian crows. New Caledonian crows have

515
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: been documented to Uh so You've got a tube and

516
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: it's got some water in it, and floating on the

517
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: top of the water is a yummy piece of food

518
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: that the crow wants, but it's down in the tube

519
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: and it can't reach it. So the crows figure out

520
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: to drop rocks or heavy objects into the water to

521
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: raise the water level to fish out the piece of

522
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: food it that that's again something that I wonder if

523
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: I would think to do well. I mean, it reminds me,

524
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: of course of asobs fable of the crow in the picture,

525
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: like just goes right back to some of our oldest

526
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: tails in which the crow is thirsty and has to

527
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: drop pebbles into the picture to raise the water level

528
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: enough to drink from it. Yea, So we've been observing

529
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: this for for ages, I imagined, and in fact, I

530
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: think there was a study we came across just this

531
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: month that was looking at the evolution of the beak

532
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: of the New Caledonian crow, essentially saying it evolved for

533
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: tool use, right, Yeah, I should mention that they that

534
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: we've also observed the New Caledonia crows forming beetle hooks

535
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: from the barbed edges of wide leaves. And in fact,

536
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 1: uh these Cornell researchers in this recent study they use

537
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: shape analysis and h CT scanning to compare the shape

538
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: and structure of the New Caledonia crow's bill, and they

539
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: found the unique bill contributes to the bird's ability to

540
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: use and probably make tools specialized for tool manipulation. Okay,

541
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: so it's not just the brain, but the crow is

542
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: so specialized for being a technological creature that it has

543
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: evolved other body parts to aid in the creation of technology.

544
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: And this is where it gets interesting because it brings

545
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: us back to our original, uh ponderings about the possibility

546
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: of avian evolution to a you know, technological state. Yeah.

547
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: It makes me think about if we were to really

548
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: commit to this speculation about if birds became the ascendant

549
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: intelligent species on a planet, what would their technology look like?

550
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: And I wonder if instead of every object being shaped

551
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: around the human hand, if you'd have all these objects

552
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: shaped around these specialized types of beaks. What would that

553
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: look like? How would be how would they control their technology,

554
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: how would they hold things? How would they control all

555
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: of the aspects of their environment with a beak? Yeah,

556
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: because you would sort of be talking thing about the

557
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: like the the end result of of you know, just

558
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: just ages and ages of stick manipulation by beak, Like

559
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: what is the like what's the optimal formata? It's so

560
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: different than what we have to work with in terms

561
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: of thinking about the human hand and tool us as

562
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: humans appreciate it. There's another thing that some studies have

563
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: found birds can do that even some humans struggle with,

564
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: and that's a delay of gratification. So I'm sure you've

565
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: seen these studies before. Like a kid is given the

566
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: opportunity to have they put a marshmallow in the marshmallow

567
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: test and say, if you can resist eating this marshmallow

568
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: for five minutes, you'll get two marshmallows. You know, so

569
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: you'll get more, you'll get a better reward if you

570
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: can just wait a little bit. Animals are not good

571
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: at this task. Animals are not good at practicing restraint.

572
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: They can't delay gratification. If you put food in front

573
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: of them, typically they're just gonna eat it um. But some,

574
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 1: in some cases animals can be trained not to do this,

575
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: especially some higher function higher cognitive functioning animals like primates

576
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: and in some cases like birds. Uh So, there was

577
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: one paper I came across that talked about how goffin

578
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: cockatoos were. They were essentially able to wait up to

579
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: about eighty seconds for food of a preferred quality, but

580
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: less time for a higher quantity. And this was something

581
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: that was also found in a study I read about

582
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: corvids waiting for food. They can delay gratification for longer,

583
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: or in some cases, they can only delay gratification at

584
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: all if they're anticipating getting a better piece of food,

585
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: but not if they're anticipating getting more food, which is

586
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: interesting to me, like they'll they'll pay up in waiting

587
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: time for quality, but not for quantity. Okay, it's it's weird.

588
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: Anytime I think about this scenario or any of these

589
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: scenarios involving crows eating, I just think of them like

590
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: picking at corpses, like a medieval setting. Yeah yeah, well,

591
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: I mean it makes you think, like, so, what's the

592
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: equivalent in the of the quality versus quantity fact in

593
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: like the marsh marshmallow experiments, So it would be like

594
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: the kid has given a marshmallow, and then it's instead

595
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: of you'll get two marshmallows, you'll get I don't know

596
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: what's better than a marshmallow human eyeball, human eyeball. I

597
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: just assume that is the ultimate treat, chocolate covered eyeball,

598
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: no huge, a piece of chocolate cake or something like

599
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: a much improved object overall, And so crows no quality

600
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: when they see it and so do cockatoos. It's time

601
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: to hold the mirror up to avian cognition because we're

602
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about mirror self recognition tests

603
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: n s R. This is one of the most interesting

604
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: of these examples to me because it deals with not

605
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: just thinking about how to solve a task, but something

606
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: that's a kind of a different issue, which is self awareness. Yeah,

607
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: and uh, and this is something we could easily do

608
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: an entire episode on the mirror tests. It's pretty interesting.

609
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: It's it's one of Yeah, it's one of the more

610
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: common consciousness tests that we roll out with other species.

611
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: And there's certainly some species that it it works better with.

612
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: There are other things like the octopus where uh, they're

613
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: often difficulties in trying to make this test applicable to

614
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: to those two members of that species. But essentially, when

615
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: presented with a mirrors reflection of themselves, how is the

616
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: creature going to respond? Is it going to respond as

617
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 1: if there's nothing there at all? Is Are they gonna

618
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: respond as if oh, there's another there's another dog, there's

619
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: another fish right there looking at me. I better react accordingly,

620
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: or are they going to recognize that that is themselves.

621
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: Are they gonna look in the mirror and see themselves

622
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: and know it to be themselves? Which is sort of

623
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: a holy grail of self recognition intelligence? Like, what a

624
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: what a strange thing to be encouraged by nature? Why

625
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: would nature select for the ability to be able to

626
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: recognize yourself in a reflective surface. I mean, it just

627
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: does seem like a very an inherently, very complex thing

628
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: for a brain to do. Yeah, I mean it ties

629
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: into your ability to to recognize your own place within

630
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: a scenario, within a social structure, and then it also

631
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: bleeds over into some other cognitive abilities we're going to

632
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: discuss in a bit concerning not only how we perceive ourselves,

633
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: but how we perceive others. Now, for those creatures that

634
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: do react with hostility when they see their own reflection

635
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: in the mirror, they may actually be onto something. Oh yeah,

636
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: if in fact you're Haluis Borges rainbow fish story is true. Uh,

637
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with this one, it has to

638
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: do with the fact that that everything you see in

639
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: the mirror, that the mirror people, the mirror creatures are

640
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: merely repeating our actions, and they look like they look

641
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: like us, and they go through this silly mimicry because

642
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: they lost a war ages ago, and part of the

643
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: truth is that they have to just mime everything we

644
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: do but that. But one day they will rebel against us,

645
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: and the first thing we'll see in the mirror is

646
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: the brilliant rainbow fish with you know, colors that we've

647
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: never seen in this world. That'll be the sign that

648
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: opes it's about it's about to go nuts here and

649
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 1: the mirror world is about to invade ours. So maybe

650
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: the creatures that that that how and bark at the mirror,

651
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: maybe they just know what's up. Well, I look forward

652
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: to that day of reckoning. Now, what animals that we

653
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: know of other than humans can actually pass the mirror tests?

654
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: Which which ones can look in a mirror and say, hey,

655
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: that's me all right? Well, as of aside from humans,

656
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: you have a certain great apes. You have apparently a

657
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: single Asian elephant, their dolphins, orcas, uh, the Eurasian magpie um,

658
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: a few species of ants interestingly enough. Yeah, and that's

659
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: something we'll have to explore that in a in a

660
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: later episode. But there there's an argument that ants can

661
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: pass the mirror tests. I have some questions about that. Yeah,

662
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: uh and as well as mc cash um. Yeah. And

663
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: so one example I've seen it. You might be wondering, well,

664
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: how can you test to see if an animal recognizes

665
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: itself in the mirror. One example that I saw that

666
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: was actually presented by Professor Gunterkune was an example where

667
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: they have a magpie looking in a mirror and there

668
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: is a sort of dot of colored dye on the

669
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: magpies feathers underneath the head where it wouldn't be able

670
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: to see on itself, but it could see in a mirror.

671
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: And they try it with a couple of colors of dies.

672
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: One is a black colored dye that just matches the

673
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 1: color of the feathers, so it shouldn't be able to

674
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: see it in the mirror. And sure enough, they put

675
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: a magpie in a room with a black colored dye

676
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: under its chin, and it doesn't seem to do anything unusual.

677
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: But they do the same thing with a yellow colored

678
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: dye and the magpie starts scratching it itself. It looks

679
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: in the mirror, sees that it has a yellow patch

680
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: underneath its neck, and it starts scratching at the patch

681
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: trying to get it off. Now, they used the black

682
00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: colored dyes that you know, control to show that Okay,

683
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: it's not just feeling something on itself, it's reacting to

684
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: what it sees and it sees it in the mirror

685
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: and says, I need to get that off me. Yes.

686
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: In forms of this this uh, this ain't method are

687
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: are utilized with a number of MSR tests, particularly those

688
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: aimed at at land based animals. And when it comes

689
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: to other birds, a handful species show self contingent behaviors

690
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 1: in front of mirrors. Magpies and jack DAWs they show

691
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: self contingent behaviors two out of five magpies past the

692
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: mirror tests. New Caledonian crows, gray parrots, and keys engage

693
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: in social behavior and mirror directed uh exploratory behavior, but

694
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: they lack self directed behavior in front of mirrors. And

695
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: New Caledonian crows and gray parents all parents also use

696
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: a mirror uh instrumentally to localized food, so they can

697
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: in these tests, they will they'll put them in a

698
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: position where they can use the mirror to better find

699
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: the food, and then they will utilize the mirror to

700
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: do huh interesting. Okay, so I got another one for you.

701
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: How about some bird math it's not going to be

702
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: very complex math, but it's math that's that's impressive for

703
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: a non human animal. So lots of animals can do

704
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: some basic form of counting objects, and I want to

705
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: emphasize basic, but far fewer animals can do more abstract

706
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: operations with number concepts, like comparing numbers and stuff like that.

707
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,959
Speaker 1: But back in the scientists were able to successfully train

708
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: reciss monkeys to do this test where they look at

709
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: a group of objects on a computer screen and then

710
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: they'd rank the groups according to how many objects were

711
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: on the screen, and so a group of three objects

712
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: is greater than a group of of two. And then

713
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: after this training, the monkeys learned how to do this

714
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 1: task even when they were presented with unfamiliar large numbers.

715
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: So let's say they've been trained to point out that

716
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: three is more than two and two is more than one.

717
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: You can suddenly show them new numbers they've never seen before,

718
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: like eight and six, and they'll do the test correctly.

719
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: They'll point out that eight is more than six. So

720
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: basically checking for algorithmic thinking on the part of the animal,

721
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: like can I sort of deal with with quantities visual

722
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,240
Speaker 1: quantities into the difference and and tell yeah, exactly. And

723
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: so there was a study in two thousand eleven published

724
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: in Science by Damian Scarff, Harlan Hayne, and Michael Colombo

725
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: that essentially found that pigeons pigeons, Now that the classic

726
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: dummies of our our jokes about bird intelligence did just

727
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: as good as reesus monkeys on this test. UH, that

728
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: birds do the the operation of magnitude comparison just as

729
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: well as primates. And the setup goes like this. You

730
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: get the birds and you train them over time to

731
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 1: peck at screens bearing numbers of objects in increasing order

732
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: of magnitude. So for the pigeon sees three screens, one

733
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: has one object, one has two objects, one has three objects,

734
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: and you train the bird with reinforcement to peck them

735
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: at going one to three. Then you introduce new numbers,

736
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: just like you did for the reciss monkeys, and they

737
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: can do the same thing. They can look at six

738
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: and nine and and compact them in ascending order. They

739
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: can extend their math skills to unfamiliar numbers. And so

740
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: this leads to two possible conclusions. The researchers pointed out,

741
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: I read this in uh. They were speaking to the

742
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: New York Times, they said, the birds and the mammals here,

743
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: obviously they've both got these number skills. The monkeys have them,

744
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: the pigeons have them. And they either separately evolved the

745
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: basic number skills, meaning the convergent evolution, two different evolutionary

746
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 1: solutions to reach the same goal in different creatures, because

747
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: ultimately both creatures live in the same world, a world

748
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: of fixed, immovable objects of varying quantities, and obviously that

749
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: plays into the survival advantage to be able to uh,

750
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 1: to determine these differences. Yeah, or if that's not the case,

751
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: if it's not convergent evolutions, separate solutions leading to the

752
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: same conclusion. They must have gotten these number skills from

753
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: their last common ancestor. As we mentioned earlier, that last

754
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: common ancestor between mammals and birds lived three hundred million

755
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: years ago or the terrible before the dinosaurs. Yeah, three

756
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: million years ago with number skills, I mean, before the

757
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: age of the dinosaurs. That's very creepy. But I think

758
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: we've got one that's even creepier, and that's theory of mine. Yes,

759
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: And this is where I definitely think back to standing

760
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: on one side of the glass and watching the ground

761
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: hornbills and and looking into the eye of the ground

762
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: hornbills as they walk up and and we'll often show

763
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: off like a dead mouse. They'll have it in their

764
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: beak and they'll want to show it to me. Or

765
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: if they don't have really they seem to be showing

766
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: it off. Yeah, they want to show that that dead

767
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: mouse to me. And if there's not a mouse, they'll

768
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: have a wood chip and they'll pick that up and

769
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: want to show it to me. Um. But but to

770
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: what extent is that hornbill actually could it possibly be

771
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: perceiving me as an entity that is perceiving it. This

772
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: is where we get into theory of mind, and it's

773
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: a pretty big deal in human cognition and the human

774
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: experience overall. Theory of mind allows us to see the world,

775
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 1: or attempt to, often quite poorly, through another person's eyes.

776
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: It allows us to attribute a mental state to our

777
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: not only to ourselves, but to other entities. Yeah, and

778
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: this is considered a crucial part of sort of human development,

779
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: Like when children at what age do children gain a

780
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: theory of mind? When are they not just reacting to stimuli?

781
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: When are they not reacting to uh, to a lighting

782
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: up toy and a human as if they're the same

783
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: type of thing, but recognizing that a human has intentions

784
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: and starting to imagine what the other humans intentions are. Yeah,

785
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: this is something we easily take for granted. I think

786
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: it's important to note that when we say theory of

787
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: mind it itself is not a theory. It is saying

788
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: that our perceptions of other mind states. All we have

789
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: is a theory of that individual's mind. Every one in

790
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: your life, from a stranger on the street to you know,

791
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: loved when you see every day, the best you have

792
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: is a theory of what their mind state consists of.

793
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 1: And uh, and I think a lot there's some interesting

794
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: studies out there that show that that even people we've

795
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: we've known for a long time, our vision of their

796
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: mind state isn't is far from perfect. It's just a

797
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: version of who they are, and we have to use

798
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 1: those in our our our calculations as we navigate our world. Yeah,

799
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: and that kind of strange. I mean, you think you

800
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: live in a world of other people, but really you

801
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: live in a world of what you imagine other people are. Like, Yeah,

802
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: you kind of live in your own little you know,

803
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: matrix simulation of the world. But but how about animals? Right?

804
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: Can animals do this? That's been one of the big questions.

805
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: To the degree to which non human animals can possess

806
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: theory of mind remains an open question, but some studies

807
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: suggest that ravens might have the gift. Yeah. Most recently

808
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: a two thousand sixteen study and this the year published

809
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: in Nature Communications suggest that ravens possess a basic theory

810
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: of mind. How on earth would they test for this?

811
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: And how can you figure out if a raven knows

812
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: that something else has intentions? Well, it comes down to this.

813
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: You often hear this phrase thrown around, Right, It's particularly

814
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: in uh in you know dramas where there's a lot

815
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: of deception. Right, does does he know that? I know

816
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: that he knows? You know? It all comes down to

817
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: a complex game of hide and seek among the ravens,

818
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 1: where they that where they're they're they're trying to hide

819
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: and acquire pilfer bits of carrying. Yeah, so they gorge

820
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: themselves on I don't know, like the eyeballs and whatever

821
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: they can get from these dead animals. All the best bits,

822
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 1: all the best bits, but there's still some nice nuggets

823
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: there that they want to come back with later, So

824
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: they tuck these into the throat pouches and they hide

825
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: them away. Now, subordinate ravens wait, hold on, just just

826
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: to clarify, they don't hide them in their throat pouches.

827
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: They take them in their throat pouch to hide them somewhere.

828
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: They just stick them in the throat their throat pouch,

829
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna want to hide them in some

830
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: external place later on, like a dog burying a bone exactly. Yeah,

831
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: they want to create a you know, just to high.

832
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: They want to find a hiding place for the good

833
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: so they can come back. They want to bury that treasure. Now,

834
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: subordinate Ravens will spy on their superiors to see where

835
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: they're hiding. The choice spoils sniveling little because the Boss

836
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: Raven got the best parts. But then here's the thing.

837
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 1: The Boss Raven didn't become Boss Raven by being a dummy.

838
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,479
Speaker 1: The Boss Raven knows that she's being watched, and she'll

839
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: often employ various strategies and deceptions in order to throw

840
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: off the others. So she she practices deceit and trickery. Right,

841
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: So she's doing things like doing a quick burial like,

842
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: I gotta bury this fast before anybody notices where I'm

843
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: putting the goods or digging behind a visual barrier so

844
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: you can't quite see what she's doing, avoiding the hiding

845
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: place after burial to avoid drawing attention to it. Alright,

846
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna bury it over here, but I'm to

847
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: stand over here because I don't want you to think

848
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: that I'm guarding something precious. And then finally, this one

849
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: is really key. She'll pretend to dig a hole, but

850
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: keep the loot in her throat pouch until a better

851
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: opportunity to hide it presents itself. So I'm digging a

852
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: hole just pretending to bury it so you'll think I

853
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 1: buried it here. I'm going to do a little slide

854
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: of beak and actually bury it over on this side.

855
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: Now this is interesting because you could look at all

856
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: this and say, well, I don't know, maybe is I mean,

857
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: with a lot of these tests, you could say, is

858
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: this just some kind of instinctual behavior manifesting itself in

859
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: a very complex way, And so you'd almost have to

860
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: introduce unnatural scenarios to test and sy is this really?

861
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: Is this bird thinking flexibly or is it just carrying

862
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: out some instincts, right, Yeah, Is it just responding to

863
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: visual stimuli or is this theory of mind? Well that's

864
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: what the researchers in this study set out to discover.

865
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 1: So this study involved two experimental areas, one wall between

866
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: them with a peopole for viewing the human researchers who

867
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: brought them food, and a small window which could be

868
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: shut or open to make the other raven in the

869
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: experiment visible. So this was to test how they behaved

870
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: when they could see their competitor and when they couldn't,

871
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: and also how they factored in this peopole through which

872
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: somebody else human might be viewing them as well. So

873
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: they taught the birds to look through the peep hole

874
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: and spy on the humans as well. Afterwards, they that

875
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 1: the birds indeed hid their food and acted suspicious even

876
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: when they had they had only the peep hole to

877
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: contend with with the window to the other raven shut off.

878
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, so they couldn't see the raven. They

879
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: just knew that it was possible for something to look

880
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: in at them, right, So yeah, so basically they're testing,

881
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: you know, through three different things, how are they behaving

882
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: when they know there's a raven there that could see

883
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: what they're doing. How do they behave when there's nothing

884
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: there that they're aware of? And how do they behave

885
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: when there's no sable raven? But there's the possibility that

886
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: something else, perhaps this human, is viewing them as well,

887
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: and they seem to infer that someone could be watching

888
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: and acted as if the possible watching entity might behave

889
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: like another crow. So they attributed theory of bird mind

890
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: to the unseen human. They thought that human might be

891
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: coming to steal their carry in exactly. Yeah, yeah, so

892
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: they were. They were according to the researchers. Here. The

893
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: argument here is that they are attributing theory of mind

894
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: to the human. I just want to issue a disclaimer

895
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: to any Corvid's listening. I don't want to steal your

896
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: delicious eyeballs. Those eyeball treats. You earned them, they're all

897
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: for you. Prove me wrong. It's probably what they would

898
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: say that. Okay, well, that's fascinating, and and if those

899
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: the interpretation of those results are indeed correct, that's uh.

900
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's something else. Yeah, I mean,

901
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: of course it makes sense because they ravens from a

902
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 1: very early age, they have to engage in a u

903
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, a fairly complex um um hierarchical group of

904
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 1: friends and frenemies and different factions. So they're like special birds. Yeah,

905
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: they're instantly thrust into like a mini Game of Thrones scenario,

906
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: and they have to be able to survive in that environment. Okay, Well,

907
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: there's another, perhaps lighter example we could throw too, but

908
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: that is also still pretty interesting, which is the fact

909
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,959
Speaker 1: that it might not be impossible to have a bird

910
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: DJ your wedding. Yeah, you could book DJ bird Brain,

911
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: or perhaps DJ budgery guard buddery garza or the basically

912
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: the common pet parakeet, a vocal mimicking parrot species, the

913
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: one you teach to say bad words. Yeah, yeah, of course. Uh.

914
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: In a two thousand eleven study published in Scientific Reports,

915
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: a team of researchers trained eight budgery guards to perform

916
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: isochronus that means occurring at the same time tapping tasks

917
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: in which they picked a key to the rhythm of

918
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: audio visual metronome style stimuli, so keeping keeping time keeping

919
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: beat exactly. And now this has also been observed in

920
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: sea lions, Reese's monkeys, chimpanzees, and Binobo's uh. In this case,

921
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: though the Budgerty guards, they seemed inherently inclined to tap

922
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: it fast tempos which have a similar time scale to

923
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: the rhythm of their own natural vocalizations, and the researchers

924
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: suggest that the vocal learning might have contributed to their performance,

925
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: which resembles that of a human. Now that makes me

926
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: think about theories about the emergence of musical ability and humans,

927
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: and if our musical ability is inherently tied to language. Yeah. Yeah,

928
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: there's been all sorts of interesting studies. I'm particularly thinking

929
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: about those involving in Neanderthals and the idea that they

930
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: might have like sung instead of spoke. Yeah, it's a

931
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: fascinating material. Have you ever done an episode on the

932
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: origins of music before? I know I have explored it

933
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: some in past episodes, but it's one of those where

934
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: there's always new research coming out. I would I would

935
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: love to re explore it at some point. Yeah, I'd

936
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: to do that. Well, anyway, that's not the end. We

937
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: should probably pretty much leave it off there, But that's

938
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: not the end of the research into bird cognition. We

939
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: just have to stop because there's so much. But There's

940
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: also been research about birds observing object permanence, Like to

941
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: what extent birds can still remember an object is present

942
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: even if they can't see it. You know, for lots

943
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,439
Speaker 1: of animals, it seems like all that exists is what's

944
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 1: in front of them at the moment. But can birds

945
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: remember something's there even if it's removed from view. Looks

946
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,879
Speaker 1: like in some cases they probably can, though I think

947
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: not all scientists agree on that. One. Another interesting social

948
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,959
Speaker 1: result we've come across is that crows and ravens seem

949
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: to be able to recognize when they're being treated unfairly.

950
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: They can respond to inequity and the reward of treats

951
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Uh. And then there there's also

952
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: been some research into the metacognition of corvids. Right, yeah,

953
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: this is a better cognition is essentially thoughts about thoughts,

954
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: thoughts about the limits of thought um and large build

955
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: crows succeed in retrospective but fail in perspective meta memory task,

956
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: So they haven't according to some of the studies we're

957
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 1: looking at here, they haven't quite pulled off like full

958
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 1: scale meta cognition, but they have limited abilities there. Um

959
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: And to put this in perspective of other animals. I've

960
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: I've read studies where um, where rodents have have demonstrated

961
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: possible meta cognition. Okay, well, I think one of the

962
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: takeaways from everything we've just been talking about is that

963
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: there is just so much research on the sophisticated cognition

964
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: of birds that even if some of this research turns

965
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: out to be misinterpreted or or refuted by future studies,

966
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: there's so much of it that there's obviously some real

967
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: phenomenon here. Yea. So many of these are things that

968
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: you see coming online with a young human child as there,

969
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: you know, as their brain powers up, and then you

970
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 1: see those same power ups taking place with the bird brain.

971
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: And so we should look at the brain itself, I guess,

972
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: because this comes back to the concept of cognition without

973
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: a cortex. As we mentioned before, for a long time,

974
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: neuroscientists thought that sophisticated cognitive powers only came from a

975
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: neo cortex also known as the neo pallium, which is

976
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: the most recent addition to the mammalian brain, the powerhouse

977
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: of higher human thought. It's, you know, the part of

978
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: the mammal brain that gives us our real intelligent flexibility

979
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: and ability to adapt to all kinds of environments and scenarios.

980
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: The topmost ice cream scoop exactly. Now, the cerebrum takes

981
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: up most of the volume of the brain in both

982
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: mammals and birds, and in the cerebrum in both classes

983
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: mammals and birds can be divided into two regions. You've

984
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,919
Speaker 1: got the paliole region up on top and the sub

985
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: paliole region and the sub paliole region that's ancient. That's

986
00:54:56,280 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: extremely similar in mammals and birds can probably be trace

987
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: back to a common ancestor more than five million years ago,

988
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 1: like five thirty five million years ago. It's pretty similar

989
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: between animals as different as and this is the example

990
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: gunter Cune and buggy or give animals as different as

991
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: humans and lamprey's. So so this is clearly this is

992
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 1: what some people might call lizard brain kind of stuff.

993
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 1: It's it's deep, deep in there. It's one of the

994
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: older parts of how your nervous system works. But then

995
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: you've also got the pallium, the upper part of the brain,

996
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: and that's the upper surface of the cerebrum. So it's

997
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: got the cortex or things that are like the cortex,

998
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: the hippocampus, the paliol amygdala, the claws drum, and the

999
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: old factory bulb. And in the uh the paliole brain

1000
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: is where the major differences between mammals and birds show up.

1001
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: So in mammals this region is dominated by what's usually

1002
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: called the neocortex that I've read apparently some the neo

1003
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 1: nous of the neo cortex has actually been called into

1004
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: question in recent years, so maybe instead we should just

1005
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: call it something like the cortex or the six layered

1006
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 1: cortex um. But the bird's palio brain doesn't have this cortex. Instead,

1007
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: it's got these little groups of things that have been

1008
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: called nuclear aggregations, which is a good name. And the

1009
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 1: question is do birds have the equivalent to a cortex?

1010
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: Do they? Do they have something that works like a

1011
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 1: cortex does. And what Gunter, Cune and Buggy are conclude

1012
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 1: by looking at all of this recent research is that

1013
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: it seems to be, Yeah, the cognitive power of the

1014
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: bird seems to be located in the A, V and pallium,

1015
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: which does a lot of the same work as the

1016
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: mammal cortex. And these are these are similar brain structures,

1017
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: but the big question is why are they doing similar work?

1018
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: Are they an example of convergent evolution? Like we've talked

1019
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: about where convergent evolution would be something you know, one

1020
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 1: example would be like wings. You've got wings on bees,

1021
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: wings on bats, wings on birds. They obviously did not

1022
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,240
Speaker 1: get these wings from a common ancestor that they shared.

1023
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,439
Speaker 1: They separately evolved similar solutions to hey, I need to fly.

1024
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: Recent findings say that we probably get some basic homologous

1025
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: structures from the common ancestor between mammals and birds, but

1026
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: these structures continued to evolve in parallel, eventually converging on

1027
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: the mind structures that we see today cognition, intelligence, complex thought,

1028
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: problem solving, executive function and uh. One thing that seemed

1029
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: very interesting to me about this is, to whatever extent

1030
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 1: this is an example of convergent evolution, it seems to

1031
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: apply to the study of machine cognition because when you

1032
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: look about at like computers and you ask the question

1033
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: can computers really think? Can a machine really think? Could

1034
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: an artificial intelligence program really be thinking if it doesn't

1035
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: have a brain like us? Well, if birds can think

1036
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: without having brains like us, why not other physical structure

1037
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: years that give rise to information processing. Yeah, this just

1038
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: gets into the idea that perhaps consciousness just simply something

1039
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: that emerges from any significantly significantly complex system of information, right, Yeah, Yeah,

1040
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: So you kind of can't say that there's a unique

1041
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: magical architecture in the mammalian brain that creates the phenomenon

1042
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: of thinking. If it looks for all, we can tell

1043
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: like birds can actually do a lot of the same

1044
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: stuff that we would think of as thinking, and maybe

1045
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: given different evolutionary circumstances, they might have been as intelligent

1046
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: or more intelligent than us. And so if there's nothing

1047
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: unique about the mammal brain that gives rise to thinking,

1048
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: why couldn't you know dick Hart's internal protagonist, the one

1049
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: that says, I think, therefore my I am be any

1050
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: type of physical architecture that gives rise to information processing,

1051
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: maybe a swarm intelligence and a swarm of ant like

1052
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: aliens or or a computer. It it really leads one

1053
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: to some strange conclusions about what intelligence is and where

1054
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: it emerges from physical reality. Indeed, indeed, it really it

1055
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: really forces you to to rethink what we think we

1056
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: know about about intelligence and thought. Okay, well, I think

1057
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: we should come back and finish with that question, we

1058
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: started with about the technological civilizations in that alternative reality

1059
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: where the ascendant intelligent life form on Earth is avian

1060
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 1: rather than mammalian. If it's not primates, but it's birds

1061
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: that are the smartest creatures and create the machines and

1062
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: the buildings and the cities and the social structures and

1063
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: everything we think of as intelligent civilization. What would that

1064
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: look like? How would it be different? Well, I instantly

1065
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: when I when I think of sci Fi visions, like

1066
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: existing sci Fi visions of of intelligent avian species. Uh,

1067
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, I instantly think to Flash Gordon the Hawkman,

1068
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: particularly Prince uh Principle Alton played by Brian Blessed and

1069
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: one of his uh most uh spectacular, one of his

1070
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 1: loudest roles, one of many loud roles over the years.

1071
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 1: You know, they're still basically they're just humans, right, They've

1072
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: got arms. Yeah, I mean it gets down to the

1073
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: the age old reality that humans have looked at birds

1074
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 1: and we've we've envied them, but only for one thing.

1075
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: We just want the wings. We don't want the talions,

1076
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 1: we don't want the cloaca, we don't want any of

1077
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: the other stuff. We just want to fly, And so

1078
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 1: when we think of avian creatures and avian intelligent avian species,

1079
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: we tend to think of just people with wings, and

1080
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: we want to have our cake and eat it too.

1081
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: We want wings, but we don't want to give up

1082
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: the arms. Yeah, We've got to choose. Yeah, that's one

1083
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: of the things that I've looked in the past with

1084
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: some of these high one plastic surgeon in particular, doctor

1085
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: rosen Um, has argued that there's a way that you

1086
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: could turn the human arm into into a wing. But

1087
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: most people, really they don't want that. If they want

1088
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 1: to become a bird, they want to still have arms. Yeah.

1089
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: They want to be an angel, not a bird exactly. Yeah,

1090
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: And most angels are depicted with with arms um in

1091
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: terms of like actual intelligent um, you know, in more

1092
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: considerate ideas about what a an avian alien species might

1093
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: consistent or what they might think like um. The best

1094
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: example I've run across is in the second book of

1095
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: Richard K. Morrigan's Takishi Kovacs novels, the most stuff famous

1096
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: of which is is Altered Carbon, which I understand is

1097
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: getting picked up by Netflix. The second book, Broken Angels.

1098
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: It introduces a long extinct or at least absent elder

1099
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: race referred to as the Martians. But they're only referred

1100
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: to as the Martians by humans because that's where we

1101
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: first encounter their ruins on Mars, mean on Mars. So

1102
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: the species, in particular their Avian they're winged um. They

1103
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: disappeared from our galaxy at some point in the long past.

1104
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 1: They left behind all these advanced artifacts and a few

1105
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 1: functional items. But Morgan plays with the idea of a

1106
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 1: technological civilization that evolved from solitary predatory predatory at avian creatures.

1107
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 1: So in their maps, the local settlement is always positioned

1108
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: at the center of the universe. Uh. So they seem

1109
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: to have existed in their most evolved state in a

1110
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 1: form of highly advanced and automated fiefdoms controlled by and

1111
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,760
Speaker 1: consisting of a lone individual Um. Which is all kind

1112
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: of slightly slightly hard to fathom. It's so different from

1113
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: how we think of civilization and technologically advanced civilizations working.

1114
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 1: But indeed, what how would the model differ if the

1115
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,439
Speaker 1: species was inherently solitary instead of social, I mean, would

1116
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: it even be possible? Uh, It's it runs contrary to

1117
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: our to our only example of evolved, uh technological civilization. Yeah,

1118
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: it's just another way of highlighting exactly how deep our

1119
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: mammalian influences run, the fact that we things we think

1120
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: of as inherent to intelligence or inherent to civilization are

1121
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: really facts about mammals. And you know, you wonder how

1122
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: different things would be if it weren't mammals though, you know,

1123
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 1: the whole idea about the creature positioning itself at the

1124
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: center of the universe. I mean, we all do that.

1125
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,360
Speaker 1: It comes back to the whole theory of mind and

1126
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: how we're just all we all were doing is engaging

1127
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: with this sort of mental simulation of who we are,

1128
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: this idea of ourselves that may itself be flawed, and

1129
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: then all these various flawed ideas of what these other

1130
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: mammals in our lives are thinking. It's a very sense

1131
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: of imagination from which we conjure up things like how

1132
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: are the duck? Oh, yes, another great space faring avian species, now,

1133
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 1: but how are the duck? He just had hands, didn't

1134
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: he did he? Yeah? I guess he was kind of

1135
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: like a cartoon failure of imagination. How are the duck?

1136
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: Why didn't he have wings instead of arms with fingers. Yeah,

1137
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, they weren't quite it was this is not

1138
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: really science fiction, but the Skexies in the Dark Crystal.

1139
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: I think they had hands too, didn't they theyre swords

1140
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 1: at each other, Yeah they did, but they were they

1141
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: behaved the way that they behaved like bickering movie vulture creatures.

1142
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: They their their attitude was seemed very avian. Yeah, they

1143
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: were essentially, well, they are a their their culture embodies

1144
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: the scavenging impulse, like they're all squabbling over scraps. Yeah. Yeah,

1145
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: and their their their outfits and their environments are all

1146
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: just kind of a big piles of junk. Really. I

1147
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: do love The Dark Crystal. It's it's such a magically

1148
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 1: non human story. It is, Yeah, for just the the

1149
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: entire thing, like all the creatures, all the plants, it's

1150
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: just a completely alien environment. And it was made at

1151
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: just the right time. If you've made it a little earlier,

1152
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 1: the practical effects wouldn't have been there to make it

1153
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: look as good as it as it does. And if

1154
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: it came before c G. Yeah, if you came a

1155
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 1: little later, they would have c G I the heck

1156
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: out of it. So it was it's a movie, a

1157
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: perfect movie that came out around it just the right time.

1158
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 1: So I actually got in touch with owner Gintercune, one

1159
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 1: of the authors of the Cognition Without Cortex paper, over email,

1160
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: and we had a brief exchange and he answered some

1161
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 1: questions very generously for us. So this whole interview will

1162
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: be posted on stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1163
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 1: But we just wanted to talk about a couple of

1164
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: his answers here because I thought it was interesting. One

1165
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: of the things we asked him about was the difference

1166
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: between different species of birds in terms of cognition. Specifically,

1167
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: I said, uh, we're now learning how intelligent corvids and

1168
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: parrots are, but are the chicken and the pigeon probably

1169
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: a lot smarter than we thought as well. I'm just

1170
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: gonna read his answer here on this particular question, he says,

1171
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't make much sense to talk about birds and

1172
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: mammals in general. It is much more useful to compare

1173
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: some groups of birds with some groups of mammals. There's

1174
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 1: practically no important difference in any cognitive repertoire between corvids

1175
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: and parrots on one side and primates on the other side.

1176
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: But obviously it would be a bit unfair to compare

1177
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: a chicken and a pigeon with an eight, but this

1178
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: is also true for mice and rats. So to put

1179
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 1: it in a bit unscientific way, chicken and pigeon are

1180
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 1: possibly comparable in many aspects with rats when it comes

1181
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,520
Speaker 1: to cognition. That said, it is important to state that

1182
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: the cognitive differences between rats and monkeys on the on

1183
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: the one side, and pigeons and corvettes on the other

1184
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: side are often overestimated. Careful observations show that also chicken

1185
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 1: and chickens and pigeons, as also rats, achieve much higher

1186
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 1: levels of cognitive operations than often assumed. I thought that

1187
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 1: was interesting because it highlights that there might be just

1188
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: sort of like a general lack of awareness we have

1189
01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: about how smart all different kinds of species are, not

1190
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 1: just birds, but that we we under or overestimate the

1191
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: intelligence of animals across the board. Yeah, we we. It's

1192
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: very difficult, even in scientific settings to set aside um,

1193
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, our our human bias on these things. Another

1194
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: one of the questions he answered was that I specifically

1195
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 1: asked what he thought the most impressive display of sophisticated

1196
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: cognition he'd seen in birds was and so he says,

1197
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 1: imagine you're sitting in front of a table full of

1198
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,880
Speaker 1: tasty food and you're asked which of the many items

1199
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: on the table is the most delicious one. That's my

1200
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: situation now, Uh, just a feast of bird intelligence. But

1201
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: he says, if you force him to give an answer,

1202
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 1: he says, I'd like to mention two points. The first

1203
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: is self recognition in the mirror, as shown by magpies. Now,

1204
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: that was one of the ones we talked about and

1205
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: we found pretty interesting. But he says this finding possibly

1206
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 1: implies that magpies know about themselves, and they shared this

1207
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: kind of knowledge with chimpanzees and a few other ape species.

1208
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: The second aspect that I find fascinating is social cognition.

1209
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: We also talked about this one. He says. Corvids seem

1210
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: to know in a lot of detail what other animals

1211
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 1: can know and what they can't know. So this is

1212
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 1: the theory of mind we discussed. Uh. He says, they

1213
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: also seem to have a certain understanding of the intentions

1214
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: of other corvid's, and they possibly are able to at

1215
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:02,440
Speaker 1: least anticipate how another bird is feeling in a certain situation.

1216
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: Just a few years ago, nobody would have thought that

1217
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: this was within the reach of a bird. Now. I

1218
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: want to stress that we asked a number of other

1219
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: key questions related to the research. Here some of the

1220
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 1: question we asked him about some of the questions that

1221
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: arose in our coverage of the topic. But I do

1222
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:20,799
Speaker 1: want to just touch on very briefly the more science

1223
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 1: fiction oriented question that we asked him. UM. We asked

1224
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: him about. You know, he said, revolution has got a

1225
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: different way. Could avians rather than primates have become the

1226
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 1: dominant intelligence on planet or even developing a technological civilization?

1227
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: What might that look like? And I have to give

1228
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: him credit for taking our bait, you know, they're not

1229
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: not every scientist out there is willing to play the

1230
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: what if game um with interviewers. But uh, I thought

1231
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 1: he was game. I thought he had a very practical

1232
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: answer though. So he says, in principle, yeah, he thinks

1233
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 1: in principle you could. But he says, however, birds have

1234
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: a problem that all reptiles have. They are unable to

1235
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 1: construct big brains. Uh. This could be related to the

1236
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: fact that in reptile brains and so also in bird

1237
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 1: brains the fore brain is not divided into gray matter

1238
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 1: and white matter. In mammals, this division is very important,

1239
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: and the mammalian cortex can grow like a folded carpet

1240
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: theoretically endlessly. In the reptile slash bird brain, the upper

1241
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: limit seems to be reached by a little more than

1242
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: a hundred grams. We haven't understood this point completely yet,

1243
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 1: but to be as smart as we humans are, birds

1244
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: possibly would need a couple of hundred grams. And as

1245
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 1: long as they're unable to come up with that, we

1246
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,680
Speaker 1: rule this planet. So it's just mass. It's yeah, you know,

1247
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 1: that's all they lack. But we can still lord it

1248
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 1: over them. Indeed. So hey, if you want to check

1249
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:41,640
Speaker 1: out the rest of this interview, you can head on

1250
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 1: over to stuff to bow your mind dot com. Uh

1251
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: that's where we will have the interview. If you're checking

1252
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,759
Speaker 1: this out within a week or two of this episode's publication,

1253
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 1: it is probably gonna be on the front page somewhere.

1254
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: We also really want to thank Dr Gunjakun for getting

1255
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 1: back to us. His answers were very interesting and it

1256
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: was very generous of him to share his time and

1257
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 1: his thoughts. That's right and We'll to include a link

1258
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: to this on the landing page for this episode. All right,

1259
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 1: so there you have it. Avian intelligence. We would love

1260
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 1: to hear from our listeners about this topic. Um, how

1261
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: do you feel about the mind of bird? Do you

1262
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: have birds in your life? And if so, how do

1263
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:20,120
Speaker 1: you objectively and subjectively um view their intelligence? And if

1264
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 1: you're a science fiction fan or a fantasy fan, you

1265
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:27,440
Speaker 1: have you come across any models of a fictional avian intelligence,

1266
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: particularly avian intelligence? Uh, then you know involves the use

1267
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 1: of technology. If so, share those with us. We would

1268
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: love to hear about them. And if you want to

1269
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback about this episode

1270
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,600
Speaker 1: or any other recent episodes, you can always email on

1271
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:53,160
Speaker 1: us that blow the mind at how stuffords dot com

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Speaker 1: well more on this and thousands of other topics. Is

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Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com? I think the bigot