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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show. Jocko,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining me.

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Speaker 1: Us really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, you're the one who thinks so gracious for reason,

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Speaker 2: your studio, your setup, so won't ever forget it. The

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Speaker 2: reason the genesis of all of this is I was

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Speaker 2: listening to your podcast with Darryl Cooper on Jocko Unraveling.

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Speaker 2: It was on October fifteenth, and you said something that

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Speaker 2: really caught both my eye and actually a segment that

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Speaker 2: we did that got quite a lot of attention. You

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Speaker 2: said that Israel is losing the information operations in this war,

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Speaker 2: that if you were the emperor of Israel, that you

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Speaker 2: would stop bombing Gaza and you would shift towards a

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Speaker 2: traditional counter insurgency campaign. So it's been more than a

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Speaker 2: month since you made those comments. What are your thoughts

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Speaker 2: generally on where the war is today?

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Speaker 1: I would say that actually, after that podcast came out,

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Speaker 1: it did seem like Israel started to shift some of

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Speaker 1: its media and I think they've done a decent job

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Speaker 1: of that. Not an outstanding job, but a decent job.

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Speaker 1: And as I look at where the war is, I

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Speaker 1: haven't actually looked at it today, but you can start

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Speaker 1: to see what does look more like a traditional counterinsurgency campaign.

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Speaker 1: Primarily what you're seeing is sort of the isolation of

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Speaker 1: northern Gaza, which is an important move. And I think

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a limitation that Hamas is going to

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Speaker 1: run into What do you think that is? I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's that quote at the beginning of the

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Speaker 1: Civil War. I forget who set it off the top

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Speaker 1: of my head, but he told the South, you have

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Speaker 1: the will, but you don't have the means. And you know,

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Speaker 1: in the South, what they were doing was making cotton,

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Speaker 1: and once they'd made cotton, they had to send it

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Speaker 1: over to France to get it turned into to get

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Speaker 1: it woven into cloth, because they didn't have the capability

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Speaker 1: of doing that in the south, so really all they

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Speaker 1: could do is grow cotton and in the north. The

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Speaker 1: North was making locomotives. It was just a completely different scenario.

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Speaker 1: They could make weapons. The technology that they had, the

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Speaker 1: manufacturing capability that they had was was not even comparable,

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Speaker 1: not comparable in any way, shape or form. So I

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Speaker 1: think Hamas is going to run into that problem where

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Speaker 1: they have the will, but they don't have the means.

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Speaker 1: I also, and I have not been to Gaza, but

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Speaker 1: you see a lot of a unified front, or what

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Speaker 1: appears to be sometimes a unified front in Gaza, meaning

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Speaker 1: you see the right from October seventh, people cheering in

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Speaker 1: the streets, celebrating that unified front. I believe in many

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Speaker 1: cases is not true. It is people that are intimidated.

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Speaker 1: It is people that are trying to live their lives

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Speaker 1: and trying to When the mob moves into your neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: you you know, when the cops come into town, you

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Speaker 1: don't talk to the cops. Course, when you have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to support the mob in some way that's going

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Speaker 1: to make your life and your family's life better and easier,

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Speaker 1: you show support. And this is the situation that the

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Speaker 1: Palestinians are in now. Is there a Is there a

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Speaker 1: large group of Palestinians, especially younger Palestinians that have been

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Speaker 1: brainwashed through the point and raised in that culture. Sure,

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna be hard. It's gonna be a hard

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Speaker 1: time to get them to come back. But I think

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Speaker 1: that the unified front in Gaza isn't as unified as

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Speaker 1: it appears to be on TV. And I think once

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Speaker 1: the strain is imposed on Gaza, they're going to have problems.

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Speaker 1: And this is again a very close comparison, or you

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Speaker 1: could make a close comparison to the Battle of Ramadi,

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Speaker 1: where when we showed up in Ramadi, it certainly appeared

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Speaker 1: on the surface that the local populace was in support

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Speaker 1: of the insurgency, But as soon as the insurgency started

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Speaker 1: to break, the local populace was very thankful and they

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Speaker 1: were allowed to they they took the opportunity to support

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Speaker 1: the coalition forces. So I believe we might see that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing in Gaza, and I think the Israelis

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Speaker 1: are starting to It certainly appears that appears to be

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Speaker 1: that they are treating this more like a counterinsurgency. I

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Speaker 1: think they're making efforts to take care of the civilian populace,

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Speaker 1: and I think they're moving in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: Interesting because that was That's one of the main reasons

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Speaker 2: I found you such an authoritative voice. Is with the

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Speaker 2: Battle of Ramadi our. You know, our mission was to

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Speaker 2: destroy al Qaeda in Iraq, the insurgency inside of the

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Speaker 2: embedded inside the city. You participated into the height of

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Speaker 2: that war in a similar like modern combat environment. And

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Speaker 2: so given the similarity to where we are right now,

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Speaker 2: how would you say the best what were the most

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Speaker 2: strategic what were the most strategically important tactics and decisions

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Speaker 2: that were made to actually achieve that victory In the

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Speaker 2: interim period, well, we had some sort of security control

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Speaker 2: over that city in Ramadi.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the most important thing essentially was building relationships with

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Speaker 1: the local populace. And when you build relationships with the

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Speaker 1: local populace, the local populace starts to give you information

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Speaker 1: that you need and then you build relationships with the

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Speaker 1: power brokers inside the city. So there was shakes, the

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Speaker 1: shakes that had stayed or the shakes that had come back.

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Speaker 1: Once they what we did was we helped them because

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Speaker 1: once we helped them, and by helping them. It meant

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Speaker 1: hiring the shake to help us rebuild this section of

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Speaker 1: the bridge. So then what does he do. He gets

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Speaker 1: with his tribesmen. They were construction. He got three guys

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Speaker 1: that were construction. They run this project, they rebuild this bridge.

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Speaker 1: We pay them money. He has money. Now what does

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Speaker 1: he do with that money? He reinvested in the local populace.

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Speaker 1: He hired someone to start taking care of his yard

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Speaker 1: and all the sud and you start rebuilding the economy

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Speaker 1: and you're moving in the right direction. So that's I

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Speaker 1: hate the expression hearts and minds, but hearts, minds and

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Speaker 1: wallets very important, and that's where you make true progress

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Speaker 1: in these situations.

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Speaker 2: That's why it's interesting because, as I understand it, the

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Speaker 2: most important thing that happened during the campaign against al

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Speaker 2: Qaeda in Iraq was separating the Jihatas from the local population.

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Speaker 2: The worst critics of Israeli military strategy would say that

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Speaker 2: hasn't happened at all. If anything, you've seen collective punishment,

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Speaker 2: the denial of water, some of the general treatment, even

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Speaker 2: some of the calls you know, just generally for making

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Speaker 2: the Palestinians and all of them pay a price. From

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Speaker 2: a military perspective, Why is that the wrong thing to do?

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Speaker 2: Just from a conceptual level as opposed to tactics, Why

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Speaker 2: is it the wrong thing to do to not try

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Speaker 2: to separate the Gjihatas from the civilian population.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's for what you just said. Yeah, it's for

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Speaker 1: what you just said. If you treat everyone in Gaza

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Speaker 1: as if they're then you're gonna end up inflicting harm

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Speaker 1: on people that, as I said earlier, may on the

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Speaker 1: surface support Hamas, but they live with Hamas, right, That's

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Speaker 1: who they live with. That's who their government is. That's

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Speaker 1: who is going to give them or not give them food,

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Speaker 1: give them or not give them water, give them or

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Speaker 1: not give them medical treatment. That's who's doing it. So

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Speaker 1: if they don't build, if you're a local Palestinian and

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Speaker 1: you live in Gaza and the government is Hamas, what

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Speaker 1: are you gonna do? Are you gonna Are you gonna

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Speaker 1: be the one that stands up and stages a rebellion?

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Speaker 1: You can, but what's gonna happen to you? You're gonna

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Speaker 1: get killed. So what do you do? You try and

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Speaker 1: keep your family safe. You try and do what you

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Speaker 1: can to get by and part of getting by is

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Speaker 1: showing support to the government, so that's what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: So now if we start treating or if the Israelis

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Speaker 1: treat everyone there as if they're Hamas, they're gonna inflict

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Speaker 1: harm on people that are not Hamas, and that is

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Speaker 1: going to end up being problematic. Now, there are some

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Speaker 1: people that make this reference to you know, if you

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Speaker 1: kill one innocent person, you've just created five more terrorists.

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Speaker 1: I have not found that to be true. Interesting, I've

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Speaker 1: not found it to be untrue, but is not completely true.

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Speaker 1: There are times that most of the time the local populace,

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Speaker 1: they recognized the difficulty of the job that was happening,

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Speaker 1: and so when an innocent civilian would be killed, of

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Speaker 1: course they'd be heartbroken, But there was also the recognition that, oh,

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Speaker 1: we know what you guys were trying to do. We

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Speaker 1: know that my son was in the wrong place at

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Speaker 1: the wrong time, and that's what happened. And of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, we would pay them money to, you know,

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Speaker 1: apologize for what had happened when civilians got killed. So

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Speaker 1: and it would rarely would you see that kind of animosity.

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Speaker 1: In fact, most of the time the was directed towards

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Speaker 1: the insurgents and not towards the coalition forces, So I

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Speaker 1: would my guess is that in Gaza you would find

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Speaker 1: some of that as well. Again, I haven't been to Gaza,

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Speaker 1: but my guess is, if you're a normal Palestinian and

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Speaker 1: you're not a Hamas supporter and one of your family

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Speaker 1: members gets wounded or gets killed, sure you might be

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Speaker 1: mad at Israel, but I bet you're a lot more

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Speaker 1: angry with Hamas for putting you in this situation in

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Speaker 1: the first place. So I think that Israel's probably aware

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Speaker 1: of that as well, and I think that Israel's weighing

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Speaker 1: that to the best of their ability to try and

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Speaker 1: keep the local populace safe. I mean, they're setting up

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Speaker 1: these corridors. You can see people leaving through these corridors.

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Speaker 1: They're doing the best they can. This is a terrible situation.

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Speaker 1: This is a nightmare. This is a nightmare to try

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Speaker 1: and solve. This is what's a problem that no one

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Speaker 1: is going to come out of unscathed. It's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 1: It's getting into a knife fight. When you get into

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Speaker 1: a knife fight, you're gonna get stabbed and you're gonna bleed,

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Speaker 1: and the other person's gonna bleed and die, and that's

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Speaker 1: what's gonna happen. So thinking that we're gonna go into

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Speaker 1: a knife fight and you're somehow gonna miraculously not get cut,

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Speaker 1: not get wounded, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, So that's

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Speaker 1: that's the situation that Israell's in right now.

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Speaker 2: It's true I've described as a Gordian knot. I think

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Speaker 2: that's really the best way I think, just to maybe

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Speaker 2: parse a little bit what you're talking about here. It

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Speaker 2: seems to me that there needs to be a baseline

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Speaker 2: level of trust and so a lot of the early criticism,

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Speaker 2: actually the early podcast you guys did, was really in

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Speaker 2: the bombing phase of the campaign, and I was curious,

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Speaker 2: you know, as somebody who operated in a similar type environment,

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Speaker 2: what were the considerations that went in, Like, let's say,

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Speaker 2: if you were calling in an air strike, what level

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Speaker 2: of thought and consideration would you have to make when

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Speaker 2: you're employing airpower? Because I think the critics that I've

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Speaker 2: seen of the Israeli strategy would say, you know, the US,

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Speaker 2: we went to pretty extraordinary links. I think we can

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Speaker 2: get to this in a little bit to protect the

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Speaker 2: civilian population then a civilian casualty number in Moseil, I

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Speaker 2: think bears that out for the battle against Isis. So

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Speaker 2: what were the thoughts and the decisions in your mind

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Speaker 2: when you were trying to think about inflicting damage on

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Speaker 2: an enemy target, weighing the possibilities of civilian casualties, and

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Speaker 2: then also when not to call on an air striking

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Speaker 2: instead put your troops in harms way, because you're a

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Speaker 2: commander's actually had to make all these real time decisions.

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Speaker 1: The effort that was made to not have civilian casualties

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Speaker 1: in Ramadi was extraordinary. It was absolutely extraordinary. The amount

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Speaker 1: of air support that was used was minimal. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: a handful of times when I was there that buildings

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Speaker 1: were hit with air support, were hit with bombs. In

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Speaker 1: those situations, it would be because there was no other

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Speaker 1: way to resolve a scenario that was happening and you

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Speaker 1: had confirmed let's say a multiple sniper, multiple GI hottess

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Speaker 1: sniper element in a building and they have now killed

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Speaker 1: two three four coalition that's Americans and Iraqis. People have

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Speaker 1: tried to maneuver on and can't get it done. In

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Speaker 1: those few situations, you would get okay, they're gonna drop this,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna drop this building. We're gonna hit this

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Speaker 1: building with some kind of air assets. We used occasionally

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Speaker 1: a C one thirty, and do you know a AC

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Speaker 1: one thirty is so AC one thirty is very precision

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Speaker 1: and they also have very good target identification. So there

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Speaker 1: was a couple times where AC one thirty was used

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Speaker 1: to engage. But that's like I said, it's it's about

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Speaker 1: as precise as you're gonna get from the air. But

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of the time we didn't use any

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Speaker 1: air support at all. Why because the chances of collateral

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Speaker 1: damage in civilian civilian deaths was too high and so

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Speaker 1: we probably used closer or support five times wow, in

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Speaker 1: you know, a seven month deployment where we were troops

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Speaker 1: in contact hundreds of times.

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Speaker 2: So was there ever So obviously you had to justify

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Speaker 2: that to your men when you're rolling into this combat environment,

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Speaker 2: they're like, Hey, wouldn't it be easier to just drop

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Speaker 2: a bomb? You know, we're putting our lives at risk

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Speaker 2: every time we go outside the wire we can get

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Speaker 2: blown up by an Ied. It seems to me that

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Speaker 2: Israel has made a different calculus where they are trying

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Speaker 2: to minimize their idea of casualty as much as possible.

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like a stupid thing to say, because

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Speaker 2: everyone said, well, isn't that obvious. Isn't that what every

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Speaker 2: military should do? So how did you work through the calculus?

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Speaker 2: I assume that there was also a strategic decision made

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Speaker 2: at some point where like, no, we're not going to

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Speaker 2: do this explicitly for the civilian mission. Was it because

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Speaker 2: this overall strategic goal was we have to separate the

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Speaker 2: Gihatis from the population. Was it because that there was

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Speaker 2: you felt like you could still militarily accomplish the mission,

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Speaker 2: and risk is just inherent whenever you're conducting these type

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Speaker 2: of operations. I'm curious he can go into that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you'd have to really trace it back

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Speaker 1: to the fact that Maliki had been elected prime minister,

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Speaker 1: right he was a Shia, The Iraqi Army itself was

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Speaker 1: vast majority Shia, and they're now rolling into the city

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Speaker 1: of Ramadi, which is vast majority Sunni. So you already

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Speaker 1: have a very ten tenuous situation here where if the

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Speaker 1: Shia army goes into the Sunni city and just starts

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Speaker 1: wantonly killing it's going to be a problem. So they

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Speaker 1: had done that in Fallujah, and or coalition forces had

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Speaker 1: done that in Fallujah and really gone super kinetic and

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Speaker 1: cleared the entire city and left no one living that

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Speaker 1: were enemy. And they'd also gotten all the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of the civilians out of there. When you when you

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Speaker 1: stayed in Fallujah after there was you know, the fourteenth

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Speaker 1: leaflet put on your doorstep, you knew what was coming.

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Speaker 1: And those Gihannas didn't keep the civilian populace there either.

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Speaker 1: Where it certainly seems that in Gaza they're being kept

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Speaker 1: in areas where they're being told to leave. So because

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Speaker 1: Maliki didn't want to start a civil war between the

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Speaker 1: Shi and the Sunni, he knew that it had to

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Speaker 1: be a more surgical operation, a slower, more methodical operation

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Speaker 1: than it was in Fallujah. And therefore you can't go

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Speaker 1: in and just start dropping buildings. And furthermore, for my guys,

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Speaker 1: they're going out in operations and seeing a bunch of

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Speaker 1: civilians and seeing a bunch of civilians with wives and

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Speaker 1: kids and these normal people, and my guys are seeing

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Speaker 1: them there. That's the best. There's four hundred thousand people

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Speaker 1: in the city of Vermandi, there's estimated between somewhere around

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Speaker 1: five thousand insurgents. Is what these kind of like what

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Speaker 1: the average report? Sometimes they say three, sometimes they say seven.

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Speaker 1: But you're talking about five thousand enemy combatants in a

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Speaker 1: city of four hundred thousand. So it's not like it's

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Speaker 1: hard to look in there and go, oh, yeah, these

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Speaker 1: five houses that we just entered that had a bunch

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Speaker 1: of normal Iraqis in them, we don't want to hurt

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Speaker 1: these people. So it wasn't a hard conversation or it

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Speaker 1: wasn't even that big of a deal. No one thought,

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Speaker 1: no one, there was no there was no no one

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Speaker 1: coming back to me saying, damn it, Jocko, we should

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Speaker 1: be able to drop these buildings. Never had that conversation

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Speaker 1: with any of my guys when a building like I said,

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Speaker 1: if there was a building that was housing an active

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Speaker 1: insurgent group that was doing actual damage to coalition forces, yep,

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Speaker 1: that we'd attack that building or we possibly could drop

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Speaker 1: that building. But most of the time it was, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's insurgents in that building right now, and now they're

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Speaker 1: moving to another building. And the building that they were in,

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Speaker 1: and the building that they're going to all have civilians

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Speaker 1: in them, So for us to start dropping buildings is

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Speaker 1: not what we're doing, and we didn't do it. Well.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious because you know, again, if we think back

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Speaker 2: to some of the early phases of the Israeli campaign,

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Speaker 2: it was that all the conversation of ald around what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about here, which is what are legitimate targets

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Speaker 2: and what are not? What was the threshold that you

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Speaker 2: in your experience that the US military would go into

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Speaker 2: an area where collateral damage was not just was likely,

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Speaker 2: and yet the military necessity of going into conducting that

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Speaker 2: operation was such that the commanders were willing to send

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Speaker 2: somebody out and put American troops in harm's way or

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Speaker 2: even drop an air strike. Just in your overall experience, like,

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Speaker 2: what was the calculations that were being run? And then

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Speaker 2: do you think that Israel is employing the same one

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Speaker 2: or is it a different threshold?

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Speaker 1: I would say that their threshold right after October seventh

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Speaker 1: was was pretty open. Yeah. Right, Hey, look, we've just

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Speaker 1: suffered a significant attack, a horrendous attack, and we need

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Speaker 1: to put some people in check right now. We don't

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Speaker 1: know what they're planning next. There's three hundred miles worth

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Speaker 1: of tunnels. We don't know what supplies. They just caught

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Speaker 1: us off guard. What else are they going to do

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Speaker 1: to us? We need to put them in check right now.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's why they were very open to

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Speaker 1: that immediately after the October seventh attacks. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's the calculus that they ran. I think they wanted

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Speaker 1: to I think that they wanted to regain their footing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it took them a couple of weeks to where

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Speaker 1: they probably felt like they It probably took them a

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Speaker 1: week to regain their footing and then another week of like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we still don't know. I still don't feel comfortable. We

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Speaker 1: need to get them, we need to put them, put

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Speaker 1: the enemy off balance even more. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: what they did. That's probably the calculus that they were running.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting too, because you know the initial talk and

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Speaker 2: you guys touch on this about the three hundred miles

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Speaker 2: of tunnels something like that, we don't know the exact number,

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Speaker 2: and you were like, man, I'm going to take a

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Speaker 2: lot of casualties if we start doing that. I've just

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Speaker 2: been I find it odd looking at it because the

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Speaker 2: number of IDF casualties as of today that you and

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Speaker 2: I are talking, it's somewhere between fifty and sixty, I

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Speaker 2: would say, relatively low. What does that indicate to you

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Speaker 2: in terms of the way, So now we have actual

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Speaker 2: operators on the ground, we have guys clearing the hospital.

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Speaker 2: How do you achieve that? Is it through being very

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Speaker 2: slow and methodical? Does it mean that they're not necessarily

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Speaker 2: has a mosque given up? What do these things tell you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So I believe. On one of those two podcasts

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Speaker 1: that I do with Darryl I talked about siege warfare. Yes, right, Hey,

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Speaker 1: if I'm looking at this city that has three hundred

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Speaker 1: whatever miles and booby traps and a bunch of enemy fighters,

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Speaker 1: I'm not looking forward to going in there. And yet

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Speaker 1: I'm in Israel. I have all the time in the world.

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Speaker 1: I have unlimited supplies. We can live forever. We have water,

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Speaker 1: we have food, we have unlimited ammunition, we have power,

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Speaker 1: we have energy. Why am I rushing in here? And

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Speaker 1: I was sort of hoping that they would go into

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Speaker 1: a siege warfare mentality, because when you go into a

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Speaker 1: siege warfare mentality, you let time do the work instead

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Speaker 1: of your men and so it appears, certainly appears that

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Speaker 1: that's what they've done. They've they took some bold action

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Speaker 1: in the beginning, regained their footing. Now they've the premiere.

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Speaker 1: It looks like, again I'm not on the ground, and

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Speaker 1: you know only I take everything that I read with

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Speaker 1: a grain of salt. But when I see battle maps

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Speaker 1: in the past few days, they have Northern Gaza enveloped,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna take casualties as you push in there,

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Speaker 1: as you set up sort of containment around this area,

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Speaker 1: which they took casualties. And now I think you go

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Speaker 1: into siege warfare and listen, I look at a tunnel.

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Speaker 1: I'll drop a microphone in that tunnel. Listen, listen to

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Speaker 1: that tunnel for three days. Why am I going in there?

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Speaker 1: I'll listen. Oh, put a camera down there, put dogs

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Speaker 1: down there, put cut off the cut off the power.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do all kinds of things before I send

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Speaker 1: my guys down there. So I think that's where And

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Speaker 1: what's nice about that is that also provides us more

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Speaker 1: opportunities to help the civilian populace. It gives us more

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Speaker 1: opportunity for discretion between civilian populace and Hummas fighters. So

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Speaker 1: I think Israel certainly appears that Israel has taken a

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Speaker 1: has shifted their mentality, and they're now into a slower,

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Speaker 1: more methodical phase of the war looks more like siege warfare.

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Speaker 1: I think that's good, and I think they're moving in

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Speaker 1: the right direction. And I also think they recognize that

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Speaker 1: Hamas might have the will, but they don't have the means.

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Speaker 1: And I also think they're probably they're on the ground

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Speaker 1: talking to the locals, and as they talk to the Palestinians,

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Speaker 1: what do you think those Palestinians are telling them? You

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Speaker 1: think the Palestinians are saying, oh, we all support Hamas

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Speaker 1: and we hate you. That you would probably see a

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Speaker 1: different mentality from Israel if that's what they were hearing

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Speaker 1: from the local populace. The local populace is probably saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you for coming in. We hate these people. And

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Speaker 1: look are like I said, are there some Hama supporters?

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there are, of course there are. But once

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Speaker 1: you're sitting there in a refugee camp and you've got

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Speaker 1: some medical care for your kid, and the Israeli soldiers

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Speaker 1: talking to you, and the Israeli intelligence officer is sitting

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Speaker 1: down and wanting to know about what you've been going through,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're saying, these aren't the

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Speaker 1: monsters that we were told they were. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: my assessment. I think that Israel is probably making adjustments,

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Speaker 1: and I bet and it certainly seems as their adjustments are, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we can do this in a more methodical way. You know.

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Speaker 1: I got asked I was on a panel recently and

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Speaker 1: people were talking about war with China and what would

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Speaker 1: you what would your what would your mindset be going?

415
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Speaker 1: And if we were going to China invaded Taiwan and

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Speaker 1: you were Jako, you were going to be leading troops

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Speaker 1: into the battle, what would you be doing? What would

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Speaker 1: you what would your strategy be? And you know, there

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Speaker 1: was a couple other people on the panel and they

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Speaker 1: all gave their kind of assessment of the technology and

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Speaker 1: the peer to peer or near peer adversary and how

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Speaker 1: this is different in these kind of things, And I said,

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Speaker 1: my major mindset would be the mindset that I always have,

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Speaker 1: especially when going into combat. And then is keeping an

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Speaker 1: open mind because we don't know, and anybody that says

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Speaker 1: they know is arrogant. Yes, you don't know. What's going

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Speaker 1: to happen When you engage in combat. You don't know

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen when you start it. You don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen twenty minutes into it. You

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Speaker 1: don't know what the enemy. You don't how the enemy's

431
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: going to react. You don't know how your troops are

432
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: going to react. You don't know how the civilian populies

433
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: are going to react. You don't know these things. Ensure

434
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: you can have suspicions, but if you are too married

435
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: to your suspicions, you're going to get caught in a

436
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: situation where you're doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.

437
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: So it certainly appears that Israel. Their initial assessment was

438
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: probably like, oh my gosh, we just got caught off guard.

439
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: God knows what they have in store for us next

440
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: next three days. We need to get we need to

441
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: establish our we need to re establish our footing. That's

442
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: what they did. Then they said, well, it looks like

443
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: we kind of got this under control, but I'm not

444
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: sure yet. We need to put more control. Okay, they

445
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: got that done. Now they're looking around going okay, we

446
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: need to isolate, we need to isolate slow this thing down,

447
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: and it certainly seems that that's what they've been doing.

448
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: So I think we're going to see continued modification from Israel.

449
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: I think they're going to continue to adjust. I think

450
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: that we are all going to learn, and I think

451
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: the world will learn about what Hamas is like as

452
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: a government and what it's like to live under Hamas.

453
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: It certainly appears from the outside that that is not

454
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: a great place to live. And the chances that people

455
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: Palestinians that lived in Gaza, who had lived in Israel,

456
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: who had lived in other parts of the world, who

457
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: had lived in in Gaza during different times that remember

458
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: that are looking around saying, wait a second, this doesn't

459
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: make sense. This doesn't have to be this bad. So

460
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: I think that will come to light, and I think

461
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: Hamas will come out over time as looking like a

462
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: really bad group of people.

463
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 2: It seems like everything you're saying is that there has

464
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: to be a real baseline of trust for the people

465
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: who have been now been hopefully liberated by Hamas will

466
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: see that something better will come. And last time, when

467
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: you had talked about with the podcast on Jocko Unraveling,

468
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: was the necessity of immediately showing Palestinians that a better

469
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: way as possible. So you were like, well, we should

470
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: give work visas. We've got to get these people in Israel, like,

471
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: we got to make sure that there is not only

472
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: a commingling, but a light at the end of the tunnel.

473
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: It's something that the US obviously did quite well, I think,

474
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: at least during the surge years in Iraq and during

475
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: that period while you were operating there as well. It

476
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: seems though that you have to do that simultaneously, and

477
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: I'm curious. You know, you talked about the work visa

478
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 2: and all of that at the same time. These really

479
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: have got to manage their own domestic politics, which is

480
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: they don't want any of those people coming in there.

481
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: If anything, they want to build a wall ten feet higher,

482
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: they want to include a security zone and all that.

483
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: It seems to me that's probably the more likely scenario.

484
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: So if we do end up with that, which is,

485
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, you come in, you blow everything up, you

486
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: or you know, you envelop Gaza City, you clear out

487
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: the Al Shifa Hospital, and then you include some let's

488
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: say fifty kilometer zone or something that's been floated by

489
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: the population. You have no commingling. Is that is that

490
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: just setting up the fight for another day or is

491
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: it an acceptable thing from a military perspective.

492
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: The first, some kind of peace has to be established, right,

493
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,479
Speaker 1: So you talked about there has to be some kind

494
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: of trust. Well, in order to get some kind of trust,

495
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: there has to be some kind of piece. You know

496
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: what I used to say in Iraq, one of the

497
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: best things we could do is like, oh, let's bring

498
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: in Walmarts Starbucks and because when people see, like, oh wait,

499
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: I'll go work for that place. They pay me seven

500
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: dollars an hour and I'm going to get you know,

501
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: a ten percent discount, and it's this huge place and

502
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: we can get food and we can get water, and

503
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: we can get clothing and all these things are there.

504
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: So when people start to see, oh, this way of

505
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: life is possible for me and for my family, there's

506
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: that's that's what people want essentially, a hey, look are

507
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: there extremists that don't want that and they see that

508
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: as Western and evil and satan? Yep, absolutely there are.

509
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: But that's not normal. That's not the normal person. The

510
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: normal person wants to take care of their family, they

511
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: want to have a good job, they want have an income.

512
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: They want their kids to have more opportunity than they did.

513
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: They want to own a house. This is I'm talking

514
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: when when you would talk to an Iraqi family, that's

515
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: what they would talk about. Oh you know, I used

516
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: to have this. I used to I used to sell tires,

517
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: and right now there's no cars driving through here, so

518
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: I can't sell any tires. And you know, I'm just

519
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: waiting for I've got look come back and they can

520
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: go back in their garage and they've got some big

521
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: stacks of tires, some tires for our little tractors and

522
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: some tires for cars, and they just want to get

523
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: back to that life. That's what they're concerned about. They

524
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: don't care about al Qaeda, they don't want them there,

525
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: And so giving people some kind of stability seems like

526
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: a that's sort of a precursor to any kind of

527
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: co mingling. And then I think you just have to

528
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: be really really strict about the co mingling, Like here's

529
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: the protocol that you've got if you want to work

530
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: in Israel. Here's the protocol that you've got to go

531
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: through on a daily basis until you get to your

532
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: What we have down here in California for Mexico is

533
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: like a century pass. Like, Okay, if you're this person,

534
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: if you've been cleared and you've had this, and you

535
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: have had that, then then you're gonna get some kind

536
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: of a expedited protocol. But again, when you talk about

537
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: Israel separating Hamas from the populace, I would hope that

538
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: the world can do that as well, because I think

539
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: that the world, much of the world is looking at

540
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: Gaza as if everyone is hardcore anti Israel and borderline

541
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: if not full support of Hamas. And I don't believe

542
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: that to be the case, and I think it'll I

543
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: think it'll play out that way in the long run.

544
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: But you do have to give the opportunity for prosperity

545
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: and growth and peace before people, before people accept that.

546
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: And if you're a Hamas and you want a population

547
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: that hates Israel, what do you do. You keep them poor,

548
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: you keep them uneducated, you keep them suffering. And the

549
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: more that they're uneducated, poor, suffering, the more they're gonna

550
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: hate Israel.

551
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, the satsquo is good for them. That's why I

552
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: think a lot of people also didn't understand is that no,

553
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: they liked it they actually really enjoyed the way everything

554
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: is going. And you know you said previously Hamas doesn't

555
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: have the means, Well they don't really. I mean the

556
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: Jihatas never had the means to destroy or defeat the

557
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: US military. They did have a capacity to just outlast them,

558
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: which in the end they work on it, right at

559
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: least whenever it came to Isis and all that I

560
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: came to a whole in their military pop operation that

561
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: was required. Is this then a battle of wills or

562
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: is it a battle of means?

563
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: If that makes sense? All wars are a battle of wills,

564
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: for sure. But here here's the one big difference between

565
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: Iraq and Gaza. Israel is in like America, Well, you

566
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: can out you can outweigh us, you can outweigh us.

567
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: In Afghanistan, you can outwait us. In Vietnam you can outwaite,

568
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: you can kill us with a death of a thousand cuts.

569
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: In Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, yep are populous will eventually say

570
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: what are we doing? We don't care about this anymore,

571
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: and we'll go home. But Israel's got no place else

572
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: to go, and so they're they're not going anywhere, and

573
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: that's why it'll be it'll be a test of wills,

574
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: but there's also the test of means, and I think

575
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: that's what I think, that's what Israel's focus is. I

576
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: think they see Hamas as a finite group of people.

577
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: And what's the number being flowed around thirty thousand.

578
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: Thirty it's thirty to fifty is PIJ plus Hamaska PIJ

579
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: is like probably ten k of that if we're thinking

580
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: on the high end. Yeah, when we think about those numbers.

581
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: Last I checked, I went back the Battle of Mosl

582
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: was I think eight thousand is As fighters. It took

583
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: about one to one civilian casualties, and it also took

584
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 2: a ton of Iraqi casualties. That's something that a lot

585
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 2: of people have forgotten, how literal heroes fought in that war.

586
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem to be tracking at all like that though.

587
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: Right now the civilian casualty number, we don't know what

588
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: it is, somewhere between twenty ten to twenty thousand. It'll

589
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: probably drop as they move away from bombing towards the

590
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: more ground operations they're pursuing. But as they go south

591
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: into communists, are they going to go back to air

592
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: power like we'll see. But with the thirty to fifty thousand,

593
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: do you think it's militarily feasible that they could accomplish

594
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: that within the embedded population of two million because you

595
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: had what five thousand? I think And yeah, as I

596
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: said too, with this, it's a bit different.

597
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: It depends on the strategy that Hamas takes. It depends

598
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: on the strategy that Hamas takes. If Hamas, if Amas

599
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: stands up in fights, it's feasible. Yeah, if a mosque

600
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: goes to ground, it's going to be long gorilla insurgency

601
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: and a terrible nightmare. So that's what that's that's the

602
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: way it'll go down. That makes sense. And what is

603
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Hamas going to do? They're going to do what Hamas does.

604
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: They're gonna They're gonna go and go to ground and

605
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: go into a long insurgency of terrorism and then it'll

606
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: go back to sustained kind of intel operation. But I

607
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: think one of the best things that Israel could do

608
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: is the more they can prop up the economy and

609
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: the the general life way of life in Palestine, the

610
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: more local Palestinians will be like, Hey, we don't want

611
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: this anymore. We want we want to we want normalcy,

612
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: we want prosperity. That's what we want, and they'll root

613
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: their own problems out.

614
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: There was something I want to come back to about.

615
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: There's a pretty decent chunk of Israeli society, and to

616
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: a lesser extent, some Americans who are like, look, these

617
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: people voted them in, they're all the same, We shouldn't

618
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 2: care about them. You're right in that. You know, many

619
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: Iraqis didn't nest, they don't like al Qaida, but they

620
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 2: many of them were probably observant Sunni Muslims who believed

621
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 2: in very similar values. That are a couple of different,

622
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: you know, places away from and ISIS is extremist interpretation.

623
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 2: I'm please disagree with you feel free?

624
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, not so m much, Okay, I mean really not

625
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: so much.

626
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: Uh.

627
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: There's a there's some very small number of like hardcore

628
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: gy hottists that were Iraqi, but the normal hierarchies, the

629
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: normal Iraqi populous, they were not supportive of al Qaeda.

630
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: And you know, there was a great piece that WEIS

631
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: did and it was as it was, I forget what

632
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: year it was, but basically ISIS was starting to surround

633
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: Ramadi and the governor of Ramadi or the mayor of

634
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: Ramadi was he's talking. He's like, please get me on

635
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: the call. We need American we want the Americans back.

636
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: Like that's what you was saying, and that's how that's

637
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: how they felt.

638
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: I think I meanted more. The reason I was framing

639
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 2: that way is more so like they're not the same

640
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: as us, and I think that that's an easy way

641
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 2: to other them and then to put them together. And

642
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 2: so there's a desire for collective punishment, and I think

643
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: I just want to return, not even just from a

644
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: military perspective, but as somebody who actually had to see

645
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: some of this and kind of parse it together. You

646
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 2: probably heard similar things, at least from people around especially

647
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: after nine eleven.

648
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: I remember this.

649
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: The only thing I ever needed about Islam was, you know,

650
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 2: I found on nine to eleven, just bomb the crap

651
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: out of Afghanistan and that that'll solve the problem. And

652
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: obviously you know it's I guess, but it's not necessarily feasible.

653
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: How did you work through that? Then, whenever you're talking

654
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: and having a conversation with somebody who would have that

655
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: type of mindset and wanted to employ it in a

656
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 2: military in a military setting as somebod who actually would

657
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 2: have had to carry out such things.

658
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: No one said that, Yeah, but there is there's no

659
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: one that was saying, oh, well, we should just kill

660
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: everyone and you know, destroy all the buildings and bomb everything.

661
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: No one said that. No one said that, Wow.

662
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean it's interesting because I'm watching. I'm

663
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 2: I guess I don't know the mind of the individual

664
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: israelly soldier, but we've seen some cabinet officials and other

665
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: people with security governments similar ish type thing. Is part

666
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: of why I'm asking is just to say, I guess

667
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: what I'm really learning is that there was profound lessons

668
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 2: that were learned from the US military inside of Iraq

669
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: to eventually get to the high level of capabilities that

670
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: we reached, you know, at the peak of like the

671
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: operational tempo against against al Qaeda, against ISIS and with

672
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: all that, what what were the what was the learning

673
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: curve like as somebody who had to go through and.

674
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: Experience that, Yeah, well the learning curve was definitely steep.

675
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: And you know, luckily for me, I deployed in two

676
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: thousand three, two thousand and four, two thousand and six,

677
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: and you know, this was this was us failing to

678
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: recognize what was happening. And there's a whole series, you know,

679
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: Darryl and I did a whole series of podcasts about

680
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: the Iraq War and about how that thing kicked off

681
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: and what we did with the Bathist and how we

682
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: we fired all the people from the from the military,

683
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: and we made all kinds of mistakes there, and we

684
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: took us a while to recognize that we were fighting

685
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: an insurgency and that we needed to employ people and

686
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: take care of them. So we made all kinds of mistakes.

687
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: And once we figured that out, we did a pretty

688
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 1: good job. It just took us too long to figure

689
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: it out, so the learning curve was very steep. And

690
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: then unfortunately, once once we figured it out, we left.

691
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: And you know, I've seen Darryl defend the sort of

692
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: counterinsurgency that took place in Ramadi a couple times online

693
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: because people say, well, look, it didn't work because you

694
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: had ISIS and all this other stuff. But we had

695
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: ISIS because we left, and if if we stayed, there

696
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: would have been embers of extremists that would have pomped

697
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: up and US forces in direct conjunction led or actually

698
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: we would support. We would have supported Iraqi forces as

699
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: they went in and as they took out these last

700
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: remnants of extremist whether it was ISIS or al Qaeda,

701
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: they would have taken them out, and it would have

702
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: been we would have moved in a really good direction. Unfortunately,

703
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: we left, and that's that's where you got the You know,

704
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: I always describe it as if you had a fire

705
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: in your kitchen and you kind of put out the

706
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: fire real quick, and then you said, all right, well

707
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to the movies and you left. Well, you're

708
00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: gonna come back in your house is gonna be burned down,

709
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: cause there's still little embers that you didn't take care of.

710
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: So that's what we did in Iraq. We left and

711
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,959
Speaker 1: we let that let those embers start to burn again.

712
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yea, it was mismanaging all kinds of ways.

713
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: Even if you defend the withdrawal, there are certain things

714
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: that we could look back.

715
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure I answered your your original questions.

716
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: Sure of you know what's going to happen here, I'm

717
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: not sure yet. Yeah, Yeah, I know we'd be a

718
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: lot better off.

719
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: We would be very lucky if we were able to

720
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: be clairvoyant, and to kind of look at it, I

721
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: guess from a counter insurgercy perspective, Israel is almost in

722
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 2: the in a situation where as you said, they have

723
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 2: a border with these people, they don't have a choice,

724
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: I think, at least to eventually learn these lessons and

725
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: get to the point where this is going to happen.

726
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 2: That's the only type of sustainable solution. Whereas as you said,

727
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: you know with the US, you can outweight at the

728
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: US in Afghanistan, you can outwait, and they did successfully

729
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan, they did successfully in Vietnam, they did successfully

730
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 2: to a certain extent in Iraq, requiring the US to

731
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: go back in. They're almost in an ideal scenario for

732
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: having to eventually arrive at this to get to a

733
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: peaceful resolution, simply because they really don't have another choice

734
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 2: in the long run. At least that's how I see it.

735
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people wh would disagree with me.

736
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 1: Though, Yeah, and so that's what when I think about

737
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: Israel's situation, israel situation. If I was Israel, I wouldn't

738
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: want to be on defense for the next thousand years.

739
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: And the only way you're not on defense is if

740
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: you start making friends with your neighbors. Otherwise you got

741
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: to protect your borders to an extreme level. Look, are

742
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: they always going to have to be wary, Yes, they're

743
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: always gonna have to be wary. But I would want

744
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: to have to be less wary. And how are you

745
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: going to have to be less wary? It's by having

746
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: better relationships with the people that are around you. And look,

747
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: Israel's tried that. They've also done things that have cost them,

748
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: you know, many many more years of attacks. So but essentially,

749
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is the best solution for Israel is

750
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: some kind of normalized relations with the people that are

751
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: their neighbors, right, And I think that they understand that.

752
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: Are there extremists that think, well, nope, we would rather

753
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: just build a like you said, build a fifty foot

754
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: wall and put a no man's land for twenty kilometers

755
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: around that, and we'll just be Israel here. That's tough.

756
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: Whether it's even feasible, I'm not sure, but I think

757
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: most people would rather have some sort of normalized relationship

758
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: with our neighbors and have a lower level of security

759
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: and live a more normalized existence.

760
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree. I want to zoom out even

761
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: from just Israel Gaza, which I know it's tedious to

762
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: talk about, I totally understand, is to just think about

763
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: employing use of force and negotiation. So you guys have

764
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: talked previously about Ukraine, and this is something we focused

765
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: on quite a bit where I live in Washington. It's

766
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: basically anathema. To float the idea of negotiation. You get

767
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: immediately tarred as like either pro Russian activist or oh

768
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: or are you saying that that's Russian propaganda? Are you

769
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: saying that Ukraine doesn't have an absolute right to defend

770
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: all of its territory. It's like, well, no one is

771
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: saying that. What we're saying is that it's simply not feasible.

772
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: I've heard you talk a little bit about this in

773
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: the past, but I've often heard it as an idea

774
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: of caving, whereas to me it just seems like a

775
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: level of feasibility about a test of arms means. As

776
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: you said, so, as somebody who was in the fight,

777
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 2: how do you think about negotiation and diplomacy and peaceful resolution?

778
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 2: How do we separate those two even when we're thinking

779
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: of both the Ukrainian fighting man on the ground and

780
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: then also the big strategic perspective.

781
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, the people that are always anti compromise, and there's

782
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: usually a lot of them, they're not the ones that

783
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: are on the front line getting killed, and of course

784
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: they don't want to compromise, right, So that's what happens.

785
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: They don't want to compromise because they're not out there

786
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: having drones drop grenades on them. That's what's going on.

787
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: And if the leadership better understood what the people on

788
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: the front lines were going through, they'd be a hell

789
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: of a lot more open to compromise than they are.

790
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: So it kind of discussed me when the people that are,

791
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: you know, shaking the sword, are shaking the sword from

792
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: one thousand miles away, and they're shaking the sword and

793
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: it's the young guys on the front line that are

794
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: suffering and dying. Yeah, it's horrifying.

795
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: I mean, the level of prosthetics has now reached like

796
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: World War One levels inside of Ukraine, which I didn't

797
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: even think you would ever see again. In twenty twenty three.

798
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: We're talking about the average age I believe of the

799
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: Ukrainian fighting soldier right now is like forty three. I mean,

800
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: even an entire generation of young men, which is valiantly

801
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 2: you know, wants to defend their territory and God bless me,

802
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 2: you can't think anything otherwise. But then when you look

803
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: at the long term strategic picture and you realize where

804
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: it's heading and can continue to put arms into the country,

805
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: and then you know, dispel any idea of negotiation. It

806
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 2: just feels, as you said, as if it's like saber

807
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: rattling from thousands of miles away looking at these guys

808
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: as pawns, and that is just dehumanizing to them at

809
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 2: a very real level.

810
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: One percent. Yeah, that's what it is.

811
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: It's watching I often find and this was actually I

812
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: was curious too, is because I'm you know, around Washington politics,

813
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: and you know everything everything is talked about at a fifty.

814
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: Thousand foot level.

815
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: I think got a necessity actually, because they have so

816
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: many different decisions and things that they had to deal

817
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: with when you were actually fighting on the ground, to

818
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 2: what extent was it even important or are you paying

819
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: attention to big level discussions about should we go petray

820
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: Us his way, should we go Joe Biden's way, like

821
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,959
Speaker 2: the bigger strategic conversation? How much did that even factor whenever.

822
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: You were operating, you're definitely paying attention to it. Are

823
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: you paying attention to it while you're receiving machine gun fire? No, nope,

824
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: you're not thinking about it then. But when you're you know,

825
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: you're when you're planning for an operation, when you're in

826
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: between operations, you're definitely paying attention to what's going on

827
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: and how we're conducting this thing, because it's affecting, it's

828
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 1: impacting how you're conducting your miss I think I told

829
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: a story with Daryl where there was a there was

830
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: a battalion sized operation that was going to take place,

831
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: and my guys we were supporting it. So we were

832
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: going out with the big Army battalion and as we

833
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,399
Speaker 1: pushed this plan up the chain of command, the army

834
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: battalion was told, hey, we're not doing any battalion sized

835
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: operations in Ramadi. And the reason was because a battalion

836
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: sized operation is like a flex of Oh we're doing

837
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: a big battalion sized operation with seven hundred soldiers. We're

838
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: not doing that when you guys are not allowed to

839
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: do that. Okay, well why not? Okay, Well it's because

840
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: we don't want to. We want to show that the

841
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: iraqis are taking the lead. We want to show that

842
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: we don't. We're not engaging in battalion sized missions in

843
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 1: the war anymore. That's not what we're doing. Okay, Roger

844
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: that And you know the operation got changed to a

845
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: two company plus operation, which is almost a battalion but

846
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: but that's what we were doing. So we're all thinking

847
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: about this and yeah, so those things have an impact

848
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: for sure.

849
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: If you had a message, I think to people who

850
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: are cavalier in there. Just so in Washington is very

851
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: in vogue to call for war with Iran, it's very

852
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: in vogue to call really for war with Russia. With anyone.

853
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: Everything starts to become pieces on a chess board. It's like, oh, well,

854
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: if they do this, and we'll do this. What would

855
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 2: your message be to people who are very cavalier in

856
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 2: their discussion of the use of force in the US military.

857
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: From everybody, from the people in Washington, DC that are

858
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: cheering for war to the people in the streets that

859
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: are cheering for war on either side, I would say,

860
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: get your shit on, get your gear on, and go

861
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: lock and load a weapon and go fight, because you

862
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: have no idea what you're doing. You have no idea

863
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 1: what you're talking about. And you're sending young, brave people

864
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: to fight, and you have no idea what it's like.

865
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: So I'd say, if you want war, go get your

866
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: kid on.

867
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a great place to end it.

868
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: But I do have one last question for you. This

869
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: is somebody who works up at four thirty am. This

870
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: may seem random. As a personal pet thing of mine.

871
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 2: Are you pro standard time or pro daylight savings time?

872
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: Would you rather the sunrise earlier or would you rather

873
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: have more sunlight in the afternoon.

874
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: I would rather have more sunlight, sunlight in the afternoon.

875
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: And because by the like right now in California, it's

876
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: getting dark, like at four thirty eight in the evening,

877
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: so that that's not cool. And in the morning, I

878
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: can do the stuff I do in the morning, I

879
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: don't need light for right I'm in the gym, I

880
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: can go for a run and it can be like

881
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: dark outside is not that big of a deal. But

882
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: you know, you can't surf. You can't surf in the

883
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: afternoon and it's dark outside. So I and California had

884
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: some weird thing happen where we voted to it to

885
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: stay on permanent daylight savings time. But then it somehow

886
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 1: didn't pass. It needs to get approved through the federal government,

887
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: so it's one more, one more reason for everyone to

888
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: be mad at the federal government.

889
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: Well, you just put you put a knife in my

890
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,439
Speaker 2: heart as someone who's pro standard time. But it's okay, Jocko.

891
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: I really appre huge you doing this and taking the

892
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: time out of your schedule for all. That was a

893
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: great discussion and we thank you very much thanks for

894
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: having me appreciate it.