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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how stupp

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. Today, as Women's History Month is

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Speaker 1: winding down, we're presenting the final episode of our change

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Speaker 1: Makers series where we have talked to an incredible group

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Speaker 1: of inspirational women and we really hope that the series

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Speaker 1: has given you as much inspiration to go out there

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Speaker 1: and make a change in your world as it has

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Speaker 1: for us. And so today's theme for the final episode

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Speaker 1: is no dream is off limits. And Regina Wilson, who

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Speaker 1: we're talking to, is a living and life saving example

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Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, Regina Wilson is absolutely both personally and

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Speaker 1: professionally inspiring. So she is one of just forty four

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Speaker 1: women total out of more than ten thousand firefighters and

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Speaker 1: officers in New York, and she's one of just ten

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Speaker 1: African American women on the total fource plus, Wilson is

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Speaker 1: just the second woman to be assigned to her station,

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Speaker 1: and she also recently became the first female president of

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Speaker 1: the Vulcan Society, which is a fraternal order for African

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Speaker 1: American firefighters. So she is just making history left and right,

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Speaker 1: and Caroline. It's not terribly surprising that she is one

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Speaker 1: of very few people fighting fires who looks like her,

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Speaker 1: considering how across the United States, women make up just

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Speaker 1: three point four percent of firefighters. So whichever way you

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Speaker 1: look at it, I mean, this is an unconventional job

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Speaker 1: for a woman to choose, and in fact, Regina Wilson

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Speaker 1: never expected to become one. Before I became a firefighter,

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Speaker 1: I was working for UM. The company is called National

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Speaker 1: Grid now, but when I was working there, they were

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Speaker 1: called Brooklyn Union Gas and I was working in the

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Speaker 1: Treasury department in brooklynning Gas. It was not an easy transition,

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Speaker 1: especially from the perspectives of coming from corporate America and

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Speaker 1: UM not being a part of a job that was

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Speaker 1: so physical. So it took a while for me to

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Speaker 1: understand really the nature of the job and to also

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Speaker 1: just submit to the fact that my career path was changing.

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Speaker 1: But UM, I was recruited at the it was called

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Speaker 1: the Black Expo at the Jacob Javitt Center, and the

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Speaker 1: Fire department had a recruitment table out and UM some

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Speaker 1: of the recruiters were speaking to me about how there

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Speaker 1: were very few African Americans and females on the job,

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Speaker 1: and so I didn't understand why that was because firefighters

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Speaker 1: are always held in high regard and uh, it seemed

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Speaker 1: to be an honorable and admirable job, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: understand why African Americans and women didn't really take a

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Speaker 1: look at this career path. So it just intrigued me.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't quite sold on it, but it intrigued me.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't until like developed mentors some females and

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Speaker 1: male firefighters, that I decided to go ahead and go

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Speaker 1: through the process. But getting to that point was not automatic.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a given for Wilson or for many other

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Speaker 1: women on the force. Yeah, I mean, there's a good

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Speaker 1: chance that if you are a female firefighter, as soon

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Speaker 1: as you walk into the station, you're probably gonna face

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Speaker 1: some type of discrimination unfortunately. And this is something that

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Speaker 1: we talked about in our stuff I've Never Told You

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Speaker 1: podcasts a little while back on female firefighters, And in

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Speaker 1: that conversation we highlighted a study published in the International

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Speaker 1: Journal of Diversity which found that when women are hired

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Speaker 1: by a fire department, say that they were treated differently,

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Speaker 1: and in addition to maybe being treated in your interactions

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Speaker 1: with your coworkers differently because of your gender. They are

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Speaker 1: also just issues related to so few women being on

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Speaker 1: the force, so you have ill fitting equipment and sometimes

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Speaker 1: even UH stations that don't have bathroom facilities for women

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Speaker 1: to use and clean up privately. And in comparison, though,

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Speaker 1: just twelve percent of men report experiencing any kind of

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Speaker 1: discrimination on the force, so clearly there there are some

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Speaker 1: unsavory dynamics at work, and that's something that Regina Wilson

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Speaker 1: has absolutely had to deal with, I mean, and that's

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Speaker 1: part of the story she tells today too. Well, some

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Speaker 1: of the Negatives Act really started pretty early, and um,

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Speaker 1: not even so many it was negatives from people, but

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Speaker 1: it was also a negative view from my surroundings because

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Speaker 1: when I went to go and take the written nicknam,

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Speaker 1: I was the only woman sitting in the room, and

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Speaker 1: it was you know, the auditorium before even went into

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Speaker 1: the individual rooms to take the test were filled with

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Speaker 1: white men. Um, you can count the amount of black

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Speaker 1: people that were there and and really count the amount

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Speaker 1: of women. So it was an intimidating atmosphere and um,

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Speaker 1: it was it was very few people that looked like

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Speaker 1: me there, So you know, I really had to make

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Speaker 1: the decision in my mind not to leave and to

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Speaker 1: take advantage of the opportunity. But just during the whole process,

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Speaker 1: you know, people already with their own um uh stereotypes

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Speaker 1: of what a firefighter is or what they look like,

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Speaker 1: you know, already condemned me for being a woman and

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Speaker 1: wanted to take this possess profession because they thought that

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Speaker 1: I wasn't strong enough, or I couldn't do it, or

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Speaker 1: I wasn't with that ideal person looks like. So you hear,

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Speaker 1: you know, you hear from firefighters, and you hear from

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Speaker 1: the public when they tell you, oh, you can never

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Speaker 1: save me, you can never pull me out. Um you know,

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Speaker 1: women can't do this job. But I knew that. I

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Speaker 1: went through the training, I went through the thirteen weeks,

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Speaker 1: and I walked across the stage and I shoot the

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Speaker 1: Commissioner's hand and he and the Fire Department of New

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Speaker 1: York certified me to be a firefighter. So I wasn't

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Speaker 1: gonna let anyone else tell me that I couldn't do

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Speaker 1: my job. So I didn't let anyone with their negativity

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Speaker 1: or the fact that maybe they couldn't do the job

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Speaker 1: get in the way of me fulfilling a dream, and

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Speaker 1: in talks that she's given, Wilson really frames this as

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Speaker 1: a bunch of negatives and negativities. But what's so fabulous

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Speaker 1: about her and what I think I personally and a

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Speaker 1: lot of us could stand to learn from her, is

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Speaker 1: that she's so at meant that she uses the negativities

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Speaker 1: around her to build her up rather than letting them

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Speaker 1: break her down. And so she talks about the harassment

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Speaker 1: and discouragement that she faced from her drill instructors, and

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Speaker 1: she said that the negativities from those guys built her

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Speaker 1: up because quote, I had to let the world know

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Speaker 1: that African American females can do anything. And so we

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Speaker 1: asked her to explain a little bit more about proving

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Speaker 1: herself and building on the negativities rather than being broken

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Speaker 1: down by them. Well, it really started out with uh,

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Speaker 1: I feel when I first went into the training academy

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Speaker 1: as uh as I can't fail type of attitude when

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Speaker 1: I went in because when I first went in, I

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Speaker 1: was the only African American female to be high and

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Speaker 1: since the original women came in in the early eighties,

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Speaker 1: so it had been a fifteen year span before the

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Speaker 1: last African American woman was higher. So I went in

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Speaker 1: knowing this, and I went in knowing that I couldn't fail,

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Speaker 1: even though I was in my bathroom crying, UM, I didn't,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't, Um, I didn't. I sometimes contemplated, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: walking out and not fulfilling it. But I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: the negative, the negative talk um, and the my righteous

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Speaker 1: indignation of knowing that I should be here and I

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Speaker 1: belong here is what kept me here. So I was

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Speaker 1: the only African American female in my class, and my

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Speaker 1: class was over three hundred people and there were only

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Speaker 1: seven African Americans in the class. So it was very

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Speaker 1: it was not hard, you know, easy for me to hide.

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Speaker 1: I very much stuck out local foot dumb, and they

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Speaker 1: at times made sure that uh that I knew and

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Speaker 1: was reminded that I wasn't wanted there because it was

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Speaker 1: a few people there that that that UM singled me

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Speaker 1: out and um and tried to break my spirit. But

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't let them because I knew that passiveness was

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Speaker 1: bigger than me. So Wilson joined the New York Fire

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Speaker 1: Department in again. She was just the twelfth African American

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Speaker 1: woman to make that cut, and just a few years later,

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Speaker 1: a pivotal moment in her career came with nine eleven.

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Speaker 1: She was actually one of the first responders, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily supposed to be that way, because she actually

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Speaker 1: traded roles with one of her co workers that day

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Speaker 1: and and he ended up being one of the seven

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Speaker 1: members of her station who died on that day. And

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Speaker 1: on top of the lasting understandable impact that the experience

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Speaker 1: of being a first responder at the Twin Towers had

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Speaker 1: on her, she's also been very much visibly campaigning for

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Speaker 1: women's roles in nine eleven to be recognized as well,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's taken a long time. I mean, even

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Speaker 1: back at the tenth anniversary of it in two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: there were finally articles highlighting the roles of female firefighters

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Speaker 1: like Regina Wilson, or police officers, UM, female members of

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Speaker 1: the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Agency E M T. S

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Speaker 1: clergy and journalists who were all there on that day.

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Speaker 1: And personally for Wilson, I mean, it really crystallized the

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Speaker 1: reason why she was doing what she was doing well

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Speaker 1: being a non eleven responder. Uh, I think it helped

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Speaker 1: me to understand about life lessons, especially when dealing with

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Speaker 1: time and dealing with life and understanding really how precious

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Speaker 1: it is and how quickly it could be taken away

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Speaker 1: from you, and learning how to value moments, and learning

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Speaker 1: that you have to do whatever you want to do

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Speaker 1: in life right now because you may not have that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Or you want to take life as it is and

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Speaker 1: build on it, make yourself a better person, try things

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Speaker 1: that you've never thought to try before, like allow yourself

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Speaker 1: to dream and make mistakes and get back up and

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Speaker 1: and and then reach it, you know, because if you

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Speaker 1: don't take care of it now, life is gonna just

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Speaker 1: keep on moving, or it will be taken away from

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Speaker 1: you and you will not be able to fulfill the

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Speaker 1: desires of your heart. And it's important that you do

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Speaker 1: because we only have one opportunity, we only have one

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Speaker 1: go around it this life, and we need to seize

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Speaker 1: the moment. But now, if we pull back from September eleventh,

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Speaker 1: two thousand one, which was such a pivotal moment for Wilson,

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Speaker 1: and we look at the relatively short history of professional

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Speaker 1: female firefighters, we see how, just like Wilson, they've had

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Speaker 1: to fight for their jobs, even get an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: put out fires and save people's lives and transform communities

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Speaker 1: in the process. In the nineteen seventies was really the

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Speaker 1: blazing or trailblazing, I should say decade for female firefighters.

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Speaker 1: For instance, in nineteen seventy four, a woman named Judy

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Speaker 1: Brewer became the first paid career female firefighter in Arlington County, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: and she told NPR not too long ago that when

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Speaker 1: she applied to just volunteer at the fire station, quote,

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Speaker 1: I was told essentially to go back to my kitchen.

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Speaker 1: It was no place for a woman. So that was

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Speaker 1: the kind of environment that Tony McIntosh in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: six was stepping into in Pittsburgh when she became the

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Speaker 1: first African American career female firefighter. And then just a

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Speaker 1: couple of years later, in nineteen seventies seven, then law

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Speaker 1: student Brenda Berkman, who is a fellow maker by the way,

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Speaker 1: over at uh makers dot com. She sees that the

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Speaker 1: New York Fire Department is accepting applicants and they're under

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Speaker 1: a ton of pressure from the courts to diversify, and

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Speaker 1: so in an effort to diversify, they are heavily recruiting

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Speaker 1: black men, not women, not white women, not black women,

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Speaker 1: just black men. And so in nineteen seventy eight, Berkman

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Speaker 1: brings a gender discrimination lawsuit against the New York Fire

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Speaker 1: Department under the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act after

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Speaker 1: all the women who were attempting to get on the

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Speaker 1: force failed the physical portion of its firefighting test, and

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Speaker 1: the test, by the way, had been retooled and based

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Speaker 1: off of the incumbent male firefighters abilities. And finally, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, a judge ends up ruling in favor

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Speaker 1: of the female plaintiffs in Berkman's case, but not after

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Speaker 1: a massive press controversy and demonstrations, some of which were

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Speaker 1: led by the fire fighter unions who had no interest

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Speaker 1: in women joining the force um But then in November

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Speaker 1: of that year, eleven women, including Brenda Berkman, graduated from

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Speaker 1: the firefighting Academy, and Brenda Berkman went on to serve

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Speaker 1: twenty six years and become captain after enduring all sorts

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Speaker 1: of harassment. And Berkman is one of the people that

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Speaker 1: Regina Wilson sites as a role model. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: recognizes that if it weren't for her and others, you know,

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Speaker 1: paving the way that she wouldn't be where she is today. Well,

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Speaker 1: some of my role models and firefighting will definitely uh

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Speaker 1: the original women that came on the job of like

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Speaker 1: the Brenda Berkman's that Ellen McNair's uh, Cecilia Cox uh um,

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Speaker 1: Patrina Cannon Uh. All of those women, um Harriet, those

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Speaker 1: little women that were the backbone for me um uh

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Speaker 1: and and they wanted to make sure that uh they

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Speaker 1: instilled me. All of the things that they had to

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Speaker 1: go through are still on their shoulders. They had to

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Speaker 1: deal with being sexually harassed and abused, uh, dealing with

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Speaker 1: um fighting other guys and getting stabbed in the hand,

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Speaker 1: getting threatened to be thrown off the roof, our wives,

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Speaker 1: picketing in front of their firehouses, and the mayor in

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Speaker 1: your own union against you saying that were that women

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Speaker 1: were going to kill New Yorkers. So they went through

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Speaker 1: a whole lot more than I did. And I definitely

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Speaker 1: stand on the shoulders of greatness for them, and I

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Speaker 1: think it has always been my goal right now is

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Speaker 1: to never allow those images or the things that they

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Speaker 1: suffered to to to go in vain without allowing myself

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Speaker 1: to make a difference and to allow especially more women

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Speaker 1: to have these opportunities that they some of them really

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Speaker 1: gave their life for. So despite the work that women

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Speaker 1: like Brenda Berkman did, despite the harassment that they had

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Speaker 1: to face, despite the assumptions that they had to fight

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Speaker 1: about women's abilities and strength to be able to save lives,

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Speaker 1: Wilson herself is still fighting an uphill battle about those assumptions.

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Speaker 1: It seems like people can't really wrap their head around

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Speaker 1: someone looking different than what a firefighter is quote supposed

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Speaker 1: to look like. Yeah, which is ironic considering how if

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Speaker 1: you see a team of firefighters putting out a fire,

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Speaker 1: considering all the equipment and all of the smoke, all

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Speaker 1: of the things happening, it would probably be pretty hard

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Speaker 1: to pick out which ones are men and which ones

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Speaker 1: are women. As as Wilson talks about as a perk

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Speaker 1: of the job. She says that aspect actually helps with

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Speaker 1: the gender discrimination. To me, uh, it's two things. One,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's said. I think it's said that

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Speaker 1: especially women in who we put limitations on other women,

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Speaker 1: and we tell other women what they can and cannot

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Speaker 1: be because they themselves are afraid to do it, or

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Speaker 1: they've been so brainwashed with with having limitations on their

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Speaker 1: own lives that they instill them on other people who

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Speaker 1: are knocking down doors and breaking down barriers. So when

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Speaker 1: other women come to me and say that you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: do this, or you should look like that, or this

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Speaker 1: isn't what you're supposed to do, I find that more

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Speaker 1: hurtful than anyone else. But secondly, um, I've been in

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Speaker 1: the fire department for seventeen years and I've grown not

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Speaker 1: to care, so I don't really Um, I'm at the

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Speaker 1: stage in my life but I really don't care what

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Speaker 1: people think. I know that the goal and the and

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Speaker 1: the purposes that I'm supposed to serve, and that's what

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Speaker 1: I do. So I live for how I feel and

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Speaker 1: what's comfortable for me, and that I'm here and I'm

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Speaker 1: blessed and I'm allowed to be free. So I can

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Speaker 1: do what I want to do whenever I want to

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Speaker 1: do it, and I can look how I want to look,

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Speaker 1: anyway I want to look. But when you decide to

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Speaker 1: allow other people and their hang ups and their misconceptions

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Speaker 1: or the fact that they're they don't think that they're beautiful,

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Speaker 1: they're not beautiful, so they put that on you don't

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Speaker 1: allow anybody in their own hang ups now become your problem.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got to be strong enough to know

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Speaker 1: who you are and feel comfortable in it and move forward.

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Speaker 1: So it should be pretty apparent at this point that

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Speaker 1: Regina Wilson doesn't take any gulf off of anyone. This

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Speaker 1: woman is determined to do whatever she puts her mind to.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Kristen and I do get the question

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Speaker 1: a lot from Smintyr listeners about how can I speak

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Speaker 1: up for myself or how can I stand up for

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Speaker 1: myself when I'm the only girl in the room or

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Speaker 1: the only person in the room who looks like me,

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Speaker 1: And so we obviously wanted to get Wilson's advice for

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Speaker 1: girls and women who feel that way. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's gonna come a point in time where you

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Speaker 1: know you're gonna have to take a stand. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to put like your line in the sand, and

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Speaker 1: you either don't let anyone else cross it, or you

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Speaker 1: stop people from either treating you bad or or silencing

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Speaker 1: you or not allowing you to speak your mind. Because

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Speaker 1: when you when you decide to take all the intelligence

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Speaker 1: and the beauty and the beautiful thinking, and you allow

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Speaker 1: it to stay to yourself. No one can't truly know

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Speaker 1: who you are. You have to be able to express

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Speaker 1: yourself and you shouldn't allow anybody to tell you that

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't. No one should tell you to shut up,

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Speaker 1: no one should silence you, and no one would know

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Speaker 1: the true personal essence of who you are until who

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Speaker 1: you all comes out of your mouth. You have to

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Speaker 1: be expressive, you have to be creative. Um, all of

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Speaker 1: those all of these women that have done amazing and

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Speaker 1: phenomenal things, have they been fearful? Yes, But the difference

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Speaker 1: between someone who does not step out on and someone

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Speaker 1: who does the one that does our trailblazers and creating

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Speaker 1: history and changing the world. So if you want to

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Speaker 1: be someone who changes the world and make a stance,

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Speaker 1: and you want the world to know who you are

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Speaker 1: and you want to make this world a better place,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have to speak up. And we have a

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Speaker 1: hunch that some of Regina Wilson's wisdom that she's passing

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Speaker 1: along and that passion that she has traces back to

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Speaker 1: the women in her life. In her Maker's video interview,

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Speaker 1: she talks about how influential her aunt and particularly her

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Speaker 1: grandmother were in raising her and how she worked so

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Speaker 1: hard because she always wanted to make her grandmother proud,

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Speaker 1: and these women were also role models for her outside

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Speaker 1: of the Brenda Berkman's you know, she had these strong

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Speaker 1: women in her family who set positive examples for them

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Speaker 1: as well. While I would have to say my role

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Speaker 1: models UM have have been UM, my grandmother, my aunt,

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Speaker 1: and and I have some friends whose mothers became my

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Speaker 1: mother's and I think UM during those times, they have

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Speaker 1: always tried to instill in me that UM, I can

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Speaker 1: do whatever I want to do. But it's hard for

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Speaker 1: a kid to hear that because it becomes so cliche,

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Speaker 1: like you can be you can grab grab the moon

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Speaker 1: and and shoot for the stars. But until you really

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Speaker 1: believe it, and until you really uh sit down within

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Speaker 1: yourself and know that what they're telling you comes from

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Speaker 1: people that love you and want the best for you,

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Speaker 1: that then you'll have to step on safe and know

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Speaker 1: that their strength is what's gonna probably push push you through.

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Speaker 1: So those are the people that I hold on to

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Speaker 1: that want me to succeed, that want want the best

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Speaker 1: for me, and I try and leave all the negative

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Speaker 1: people behind. So I would have to say, my my

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Speaker 1: aunt did at and my grandmother, you know, my mom

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Speaker 1: was um was was a young mother and and didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of direction and didn't really know how

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Speaker 1: to raise children. So UM, I was glad that um,

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Speaker 1: God put my grandmother and my aunt in my life

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Speaker 1: to raise me. So in a in a role where

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Speaker 1: she is one of so few women, one of so

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Speaker 1: few African Americans, and she is working around the clock

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Speaker 1: to save people's lives. We wanted to know what kind

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Speaker 1: of self care, if any Wilson practices in order to

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Speaker 1: let off a little steam, maybe recuperate from those long

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Speaker 1: physical days that can take a really heavy emotional toll. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think for every woman it's a little different. Um

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Speaker 1: My life is crazy, so um with just being a firefighter,

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Speaker 1: being an advocate for women and for people of color,

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Speaker 1: and being the presidents of the Vocal Society. Um my, my,

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Speaker 1: uh my time and minutes are are filled up with

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Speaker 1: just trying to advocate for those who have a hard

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Speaker 1: time speaking up or have been pushed around by the system.

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Speaker 1: So um, but I try and find um some me times.

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Speaker 1: So I love to travel a lot. Um I like

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Speaker 1: to go out of the country. I like to go

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Speaker 1: on cruises. I've probably been on twenty seven already. And

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Speaker 1: um I love to give my manicures and pedicures and massages.

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Speaker 1: So whenever I'm I'm able to uh uh partake in

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Speaker 1: some of those things, UM, I try to in some way.

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Speaker 1: Is still some balance, because you have to have balance.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much to Regina Wilson for talking

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Speaker 1: to as Caroline. She was so inspirational and encouraging to

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Speaker 1: talk to, Like do I want to go and fight fires? No, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm scared of heights and I could never climb up

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Speaker 1: on one of those ladders. But I love the perspective

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Speaker 1: that she has of of just saying, well, why not me?

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Speaker 1: Why you know they're oh, they're only forty four women

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Speaker 1: in this entire force out of ten thousand. Okay, why

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Speaker 1: not me? I can do it? Yeah. I love from

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Speaker 1: her Maker's video on the Maker's website, when she's answering

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Speaker 1: this hypothetical concern about oh, women can't do this work,

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Speaker 1: you can't save my life, she says, just just let

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Speaker 1: me pull you out, save your life, and then you

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Speaker 1: can determine whether I did the best job once you're alive,

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Speaker 1: because I came into the building to save your life.

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Speaker 1: I love the confidence and the the well, the deep

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Speaker 1: well of internal strength that Regina Wilson has. Yeah, physical strength,

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Speaker 1: internal strength, strength all around. And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why she talks about no dream is off limits

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Speaker 1: and hearing that. Sometimes hearing those kinds of aphorisms, if

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Speaker 1: you're going through a rough spot or if you feel

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Speaker 1: really powerless, can seem like such an empty promise. But

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Speaker 1: Regina and other people like her, the Brenda Berkman's of

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Speaker 1: the world, I mean, they're living proof that it is

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Speaker 1: true no dream is off limits. So if you want

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Speaker 1: to learn more about Regina Wilson Um, she encourages you

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Speaker 1: to go check out the Vulcan Society's website, which again

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Speaker 1: she is the first female president of And you can

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Speaker 1: go to Vulcan Society f D and y dot org

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Speaker 1: and to hear more of her story and how she

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Speaker 1: became the woman she is today. You can watch her

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Speaker 1: video over at makers dot com. And now we're curious

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Speaker 1: to hear from you. Are there any firefighters in the

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Speaker 1: audience or any one who can really relate to that

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Speaker 1: experience of being the only person in the room who

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Speaker 1: looks like you and how did you manage that? Mom

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Speaker 1: se at how stuff Works dot com is our email address.

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Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

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Speaker 1: message us on Facebook and if you'd like to get

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Speaker 1: to know Caroline and me more, we have all sorts

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Speaker 1: of videos, blog posts, and hundreds of podcasts over at

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Speaker 1: our website stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for

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Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it

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Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com