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Speaker 1: Welcome to Ruthie's Table four, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Adamized Studios.

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Speaker 2: Michael Elias is impressive, an actor, director of movies and television,

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Speaker 2: a writer of novels and screenplays, a black belt in karate.

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Speaker 2: He is generous, funny, he has great ethics, and he

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Speaker 2: is a fantastic cook. They tell me that I fell

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Speaker 2: in love with him the moment we met. Michael Elias

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Speaker 2: is impressive, and Michael Elias is my brother. Michael. The

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Speaker 2: recipe that you've chosen is ricotta alfhourno. Would you like

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Speaker 2: to read it?

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Speaker 1: Ricotta alfhourno and takes a handful of fresh mint leaves,

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Speaker 1: basil and parsley. You need five hundred grams of buffalo ricotta,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty millileaters, double cream, two eggs, one

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Speaker 1: hundred fifty grams of parmesan, and black olives. Preheat the

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Speaker 1: oven to one hundred and ninety degrees centigrade. Coat the

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Speaker 1: bottom and sides of a round spring formed tin with

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Speaker 1: butter and parmesan. Put their herbs in a food processor

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Speaker 1: with half of the ricotta and cream, and you blend

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Speaker 1: until bright green. Add the remainder of the ricotta and cream.

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Speaker 1: Add the eggs one by one, season with sea salt

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Speaker 1: and black pepper. Finally, fold in the parmesan spoon into

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Speaker 1: the tin and spread the olives over the top. Bake

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Speaker 1: for twenty minutes the torch the rise and have a

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Speaker 1: brown crust, but still be salt in the center.

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Speaker 2: I was very pleased that you chose this recipe, and

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Speaker 2: I checked today because I was one hundred percent sure.

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Speaker 2: But in nineteen eighty seven, the first day, September tenth,

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Speaker 2: that we opened the River Cafe, this recipe, this dish

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Speaker 2: we caught to Alfoorna, was on the menu. And so

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Speaker 2: it does take us right back to the history and

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Speaker 2: to the early days before we go into our childhood,

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Speaker 2: your childhood. Would you tell me about the first days

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Speaker 2: of the River Cafe.

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Speaker 1: Well, I remember the River Cafe as a place that

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Speaker 1: made great hamburgers.

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Speaker 2: Careful, I always tell Viva it was an Italian restaurant

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Speaker 2: from days.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, it evolved into an Italian restaurant, and it

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Speaker 1: had a sensibility in the beginning that was Italian that

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Speaker 1: only could be increased with the edition of Italian dishes.

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Speaker 1: So goodbye to the hamburger. The croissants and the French

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Speaker 1: fries which I miss. I still miss. They were great.

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Speaker 1: So that was my introduction to the River Cafe and

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Speaker 1: probably the next time I came back was full blown Italian.

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Speaker 1: Was so wonderful to see all these this is for

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Speaker 1: the first time, and including the ricotta alfourna, which I

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Speaker 1: probably had at a family dinner that you cooked, and

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Speaker 1: here it was on the menu. And then the next

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Speaker 1: thing I know, it was on a recipe and I

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Speaker 1: could make it, and I made it all the time.

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Speaker 2: I think that Ken, you're being kind of modest, because

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Speaker 2: really your involvement in the River Cafe in the early

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Speaker 2: days was so supportive to rosen To myself. You made

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Speaker 2: baseball hats and T shirts from la You were constantly

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Speaker 2: on the phone sending people to this tiny little restaurant

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Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere. I remember you wrote a

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Speaker 2: review of it. Do you remember that?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? And I remember the baseball caps and T shirts

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Speaker 1: that I had printed up with the menu, and I

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Speaker 1: would arrive in London with a steamer trunk full of

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Speaker 1: T shirts and baseball caps. I was the Willie Lowman

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Speaker 1: of the of the River Cafe. I saw it get

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Speaker 1: bigger and bigger. The food always was great, but it

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Speaker 1: was such an exciting place, and it was designed by

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Speaker 1: Richard Richard Rogers, so it was just stepping into a beautiful,

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Speaker 1: beautiful world of the most delicious food and wonderful people.

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Speaker 1: It was something to be supported, and not only in

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Speaker 1: our family but all our friends.

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Speaker 2: And you were actually also not just an amateur because

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Speaker 2: you were involved in restaurants in Los Angeles, weren't you,

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Speaker 2: with Mamaison and Spago and other restaurants.

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Speaker 1: Well, I invested in two restaurants in my life, one

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Speaker 1: financially Spargo and the other emotionally, The River Cafe, and

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Speaker 1: they both paid off until I found out that I

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Speaker 1: was the only investor in Spargo who didn't know that

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Speaker 1: you could eat there for free. So I eat all

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Speaker 1: my bills beautifully.

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Speaker 2: We grew up in a town about as far away

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Speaker 2: from London or from Los Angeles or the glamour of

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Speaker 2: Spago or other restaurants. Where do you think that came from?

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Speaker 1: What was it?

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Speaker 2: Can you describe the early memories you have of food

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Speaker 2: in our house.

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Speaker 1: Well, we grew up in the Catskill Mountains and we

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Speaker 1: had a family in New York City, and the food

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Speaker 1: in our families. Our grandparents was Kosher Eastern European Jewish food.

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Speaker 2: They were Hungarian.

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Speaker 1: They were Hungarian, Yeah, Rosy and Sam. She was a

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Speaker 1: great cook. She made these beautiful red stuffed cabbage and

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Speaker 1: roast chickens, and she ground all the meat for whatever

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Speaker 1: she was making herself. And my father had six sisters

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Speaker 1: and they all cooked. They made grandma's recipes, and so

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Speaker 1: everybody loved food, and we always had big family dinners

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Speaker 1: in the backyard under the trees. It was wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Our grandmother's mother was a very passionate cook, wasn't she.

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Speaker 2: I remember two stories. She came to see you for

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Speaker 2: her first grandson from New York, which is quite an

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Speaker 2: arduous trip, and she traveled and her mother put you

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Speaker 2: in the crib and put you in a beautiful little

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Speaker 2: outfit and everything. And when she rang the bell and

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Speaker 2: came in, our mother said to her mother in law,

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Speaker 2: would you like to come and see the baby? And

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Speaker 2: she said, apparently, let's eat first. So I think that

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Speaker 2: that was that one, and then the other one was

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Speaker 2: that she would bring her own rolling pin to roll

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Speaker 2: out the strudles.

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Speaker 1: I think what was different for us, at least was

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Speaker 1: that our father, Fred, who gone to medical school in

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Speaker 1: Europe in Germany and Switzerland, was actually rather sophisticated in

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Speaker 1: terms of food and came back with the European tastes.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying he taught my mother these recipes. Could

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Speaker 1: barely boil water, but we had sour brotten, we had

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Speaker 1: tippers and eggs and onion and for a Sunday breakfast,

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Speaker 1: egg plant palmerjan. So we had really interesting food growing up,

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Speaker 1: and I think we all demanded it for the rest

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Speaker 1: of our lives. And I think he was an influence

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Speaker 1: in that.

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Speaker 2: You've described cooking at home, the meals that you had

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Speaker 2: with our parents, the detail really of the kind of

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Speaker 2: food that our grandmother cooked, the experiences of eating in

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Speaker 2: her house. And when you left all this home life

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Speaker 2: that you had in Woodburn you went to college in Maryland.

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Speaker 2: What was it like leaving home and having to fend

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Speaker 2: for yourself food wise? Was it a segue into something

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Speaker 2: that was easier? Did you seek out food or did

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Speaker 2: you try different foods?

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Speaker 1: So Annapolis, Maryland was the home with the crab and

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Speaker 1: the oyster. You could go down to the docks and

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Speaker 1: eat both. Then moving to New York, I found out

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Speaker 1: I couldn't afford any of those things because I was

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Speaker 1: a struggling actor or the concept of restaurants. Most of

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Speaker 1: them were on afford and we depended on the kindness

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Speaker 1: of friends who were in the publishing business and they

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Speaker 1: had expense accounts and they would take us to lunch

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Speaker 1: and that was wonderful.

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Speaker 2: What year was this.

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Speaker 1: It was in the early mid sixties. I was working

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Speaker 1: in off off Broadway Theater, the Living Theater.

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Speaker 2: You were living in New York and you were acting

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Speaker 2: in New York, and then you went to Europe and

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Speaker 2: was that a revelation of what the food would be

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Speaker 2: like outside of the United States.

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Speaker 1: Well, my first stop was London to see you and Richard,

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Speaker 1: and in those days, we of course had great meals

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Speaker 1: at your apartment. And I remember being introduced to Greek

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Speaker 1: food because you used to love to go to Soho

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Speaker 1: and you had favorite Greek restaurants.

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Speaker 2: That's right, right, yeah, we did. Also it was what

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Speaker 2: we could afford in those days. I think it was

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Speaker 2: called Jimmy's. It was on Wader Streets, one of the

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Speaker 2: first restaurants which it took me to and he went

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Speaker 2: down these stairs and it was just incredibly noisy and fun.

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Speaker 2: It was a days when you could either eat fancy

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Speaker 2: British or French food, or you could go and have

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Speaker 2: a great time and noise and pay very little. But

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Speaker 2: it would be Greek or Italian or you know. And

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Speaker 2: then you went to that very foreign country called Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: The Living Theater went on to Paris, and I went

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Speaker 1: back to New York and resumed my life as an actor,

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Speaker 1: then eventually made my way to Los Angeles, where I

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Speaker 1: had a writing career.

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Speaker 2: Was that a big change in going from the food

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Speaker 2: of New York to the food of Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: I think I went in nineteen sixty nine, and yes,

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Speaker 1: it was very different. First of all, there were these

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Speaker 1: enormous supermarkets that were open twenty four hours a day,

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Speaker 1: and I had never seen so many fruits and vegetables,

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Speaker 1: and they were like giant warehouses, brightly lit, and you

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Speaker 1: going at four o'clock in the morning and buy food.

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Speaker 1: And then there were Mexican restaurants, and as I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I met my first talk of the farmers

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Speaker 1: market with this wonderful Mexican restaurant, and that became my love,

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Speaker 1: I would say, Mexican food Mexican.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember you took us to that place in

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Speaker 2: Santa Barbara that was a roadside super Rica, super Rika

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Speaker 2: super Rica, which.

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Speaker 1: Was made famous by Julia Child saying this is the

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Speaker 1: best Mexican restaurant on the West Coast, and she was right.

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Speaker 1: That was a fat day. Or because you get up

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Speaker 1: really early on Sunday morning, you drive to Tijuana, you

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Speaker 1: could drive to Rosa, Rita Beach where they had a

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Speaker 1: little restaurant that served broiled quail and the most exquisite

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Speaker 1: baked potatoes.

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Speaker 2: I remember you took us there. Remember that when Richard

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Speaker 2: was teaching you Sela, we drove down very well.

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Speaker 1: There was a basque restaurant in Tijuana that was very famous,

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Speaker 1: and another one called Caesars, which where they invented caesar salad,

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Speaker 1: so they would make us caesar salad for you at

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Speaker 1: or at your table and then go home.

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Speaker 2: But you saw the evolution from probably sixty nine through

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Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties of the food scene in California,

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Speaker 2: whether it was San Francisco with Alice Walters or as

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Speaker 2: you said, La with Wolfgang Puck.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing about Los Angeles food, and there are

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Speaker 1: chefs who bring in everything, and they're not afraid and

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Speaker 1: they figure out these incredible combinations. I think it was

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Speaker 1: Wolfgang Puck who changed the world. I mean he really

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Speaker 1: did to open a first class restaurant and serve pizza.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, it was revolutionary, and he was also

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Speaker 1: the first one to say I'm going to use Pacific

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Speaker 1: influences in the food. So all of a sudden you

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Speaker 1: got the Japanese influence and the Chinese and very subtle

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Speaker 1: into this what was basically an Italian restaurant. Also, I

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Speaker 1: think he was one of the first celebrity chefs. He

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Speaker 1: would bring you something or the waiter would say, Wolfgang

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Speaker 1: wants you to try this, and people would melt. You know,

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Speaker 1: movie stars and he never saw a movie.

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Speaker 2: He was in the restaurant the other day. He came

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Speaker 2: after such a long time. He came in and we

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Speaker 2: were all so excited to have Wolfgang, who has restaurants

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Speaker 2: in every country and restaurants in every airport. And I

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Speaker 2: said to him, Wolfgang, I want to be like you.

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Speaker 2: I want to have forty restaurants. And he said, Ruthie,

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Speaker 2: I want to be like you. I want to have one.

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Speaker 2: And he was so so charming and He has been

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Speaker 2: a huge influence. And I remember eating with you at

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Speaker 2: mam Maison, which was a very fancy French restaurant, and

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Speaker 2: saying that his next one was going to be a

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Speaker 2: pizza place, and we were all completely mystified, but you

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Speaker 2: know he did it. When you moved to Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: and you described the foods markets and the Mexican food

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Speaker 2: and discovery of artichokes and avocados, and the sun and

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Speaker 2: the farms and the markets, what was your work like

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Speaker 2: and what were you doing there.

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Speaker 1: I was a comedy writer and I wrote a variety shows,

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Speaker 1: Glenn Campbell, The Mother's Brothers, Leslie ugham Is at the

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Speaker 1: same time writing sitcoms for All in the Family, Mary

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Speaker 1: Tyler Moore. I was a pretty busy fellow with my

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Speaker 1: partner at the time. At the same time, I was

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Speaker 1: writing television, which I considered a day job and I

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Speaker 1: loved it, but I always knew that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: do something by myself, so I started writing screenplays.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about the movies that you've made?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The first one was The Frisco Kid with Gene

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Speaker 1: Wilder and Harrison Ford, and it was about a young

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Speaker 1: rabbi who comes from Poland to America at the time

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Speaker 1: of the gold Rush, makes his way across the country

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Speaker 1: to San Francisco. And then I teamed up with Steve

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Speaker 1: Martin and we wrote The Jerk, and then my partner

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Speaker 1: and I, Rich Eustace, wrote Young Doctors in Love. And

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Speaker 1: then I had my passion project, as it were, which

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Speaker 1: was a movie, a screenplay about two jazz musicians, which

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Speaker 1: I wrote and insisted that I direct, and I attracted

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Speaker 1: Jeff Goldblum and Forrest Whitaker and made this movie called

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Speaker 1: Lush Life. We ate well from that point on. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there was no restaurant in LA that we couldn't afford.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, eating in a restaurant for

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Speaker 1: me is I always ask the question could I make

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Speaker 1: this at home? And La has so many ethnic restaurants

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Speaker 1: now Cambodian, Laotian, Mexicans of every region, and Chinese and Japanese,

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Speaker 1: and that I can't make at home, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: even try. And that's the fun of going out in

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: How did you handle food as a director?

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Speaker 1: On one movie set, I insisted on we all eat together, director, writer,

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Speaker 1: all the crew, actors, and we talk about what we're doing,

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Speaker 1: and I think that communal experience is important in the creation.

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Speaker 1: I hate it when everybody goes off to their dressing

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Speaker 1: rooms and has their sandwiches or whatever they have. I

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Speaker 1: wrote a French film and visited the set and they

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Speaker 1: took a French lunch. They took two hours. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was great. At a certain point, I think I was

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Speaker 1: finished with television and I decided to write novels.

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Speaker 2: You know, we talked about the way you ate when

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Speaker 2: you were making a television show, and we've spoken about

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Speaker 2: the way you prefer to eat when you're directing a movie,

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Speaker 2: all which involve a lot of people. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: feeding people, you're eating with people. But writing a novel

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Speaker 2: is a very solitary experience. Here it's you and your laptop.

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Speaker 1: Somebody asked me my writing schedule, and I say, it's

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Speaker 1: doing everything I can to avoid writing until there's nothing

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Speaker 1: left to do, and then I start writing. And I

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Speaker 1: put in three or four hours. And one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I like to do is shop for food,

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Speaker 1: cook and then write. So you're correct, writing is a

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Speaker 1: solitary thing. And if you write at home in a

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Speaker 1: home office, you're only a few a few feet from

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Speaker 1: the refrigerator. That's a place to go, and that's the

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Speaker 1: place to go when you can't think of the next sentence.

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Speaker 1: You can always find the next piece of cheese. So

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Speaker 1: it's for me, it's sometimes that's a distraction. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's my process.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about the books.

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Speaker 1: My most recent book is about a young policewoman in

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Speaker 1: a queen's homicide detective trying to find the killer of

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Speaker 1: her father, who was an abortion provider and he was

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Speaker 1: assassinated by an anti abortion terrorist like other doctors, and

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Speaker 1: at the same time, she's investigating murders that may emanate

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Speaker 1: from a women's shelter, and somehow I managed to combine

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Speaker 1: the two. I like to write about what my characters eat.

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Speaker 1: I feel it's just as important as their size, the

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Speaker 1: color of their hair and eyes, and their character. So

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Speaker 1: I write a lot about food, and the writers who

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Speaker 1: write about food attract me. I think it's very important.

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Speaker 2: So when you're writing a book and you're thinking about

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Speaker 2: the character and you're putting them through the day or

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Speaker 2: their work, and you have really interesting food scenes and

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Speaker 2: the way they seek food, is that important to you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, If she goes to her boyfriend's house and he's

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Speaker 1: a cook, and I always say, well, what would I

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Speaker 1: cook from my girlfriend when she came over? What would

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Speaker 1: lead us? You know? Would we have a shower before

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Speaker 1: we cook? And so that's important. And I talk about

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Speaker 1: the lousy food she eats when she's has to be

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Speaker 1: on a steakout and she's got a foot long submarine

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Speaker 1: sandwich that she can only eat half of and a

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Speaker 1: lousy soda that's bubbling in her stomach. And so that's

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Speaker 1: important to me. I don't like it when I read

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Speaker 1: a novel and they say we stopped for dinner and

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Speaker 1: then moved on. Well, what did you have dinner? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Do you think that your parents understood you a passion

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Speaker 2: for food? I mean when you would go home having

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Speaker 2: been in Paris and London and la and cooked and

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Speaker 2: eaton and then you would go visit them at home.

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Speaker 2: How did that work?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think I'm undemanding as long as it's good.

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Speaker 1: And I think Sun returning home from college from Europe

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Speaker 1: from anywhere two daughters too. Parents want to make the

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Speaker 1: best food for them, and they and they did. And

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Speaker 1: the summers in Woodstock when we had fresh corn and

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Speaker 1: people would put the water on the stove and have

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Speaker 1: it boiling, so that when they came back from the

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Speaker 1: corn stand, which was at the edge of a corn field,

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Speaker 1: they would just tear off the cover and throw the

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Speaker 1: corn in. And they were almost like contests who could

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Speaker 1: have the freshest corn, And they were tomatoes and farm

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Speaker 1: stands with such a part of our life in the summer.

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Speaker 1: You took farm to table, That's what it was. We

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Speaker 1: never used the expression. And then they became. Then there

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Speaker 1: was a period when there were these kind of I

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Speaker 1: don't like the word boutique farmers who made the who

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Speaker 1: grew the vegetables for Wolfgang and the other restaurants that followed,

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Speaker 1: and of course everything was baby vegetables, baby carrots, baby asparagus,

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Speaker 1: baby ripped untimely from the soil. Who come to.

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Speaker 2: Your plate growing up in Woodstock were actually I probably

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Speaker 2: grew up more in Woodstock and you'd already left. But

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Speaker 2: when you came back you became very close to the

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Speaker 2: artist Philip Guston, and I know that he also loved

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Speaker 2: to eat, and a lot of his paintings reflect having

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Speaker 2: overeaten a kind of viver love of food, and he

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Speaker 2: loved and I was wondering whether you might describe eating,

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Speaker 2: or cooking or just being with Philip Guston in those days.

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Speaker 1: He loved very simple food. He loved those big hamburgers

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Speaker 1: and fries, and he also loved some new sophisticated food.

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Speaker 1: The last time I saw him was in San Francisco

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty when they had a retrospective and I

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Speaker 1: went to San Francisco and there was a big dinner

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Speaker 1: for him and invited me to come to this. And

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Speaker 1: then he took me aside and he says, I'm coming

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Speaker 1: to La after this, and I want you to arrange

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Speaker 1: a dinner party for me. I said, I'm happy to.

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Speaker 1: He said just comedians. He said, no art critics please.

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Speaker 1: And Philip was a funny guy. Did well, you know he.

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Speaker 2: Died, oh before he came to before Yeah, he died

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Speaker 2: actually tragically. He died in our house having dinner, yeah,

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Speaker 2: with our parents. Something that I think our father really

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Speaker 2: never recovered from that. That Philip the heart attack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, our father was a doctor and it was

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Speaker 1: such a massive heart attack for eating, smoking, drinking hamburgers

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Speaker 1: and fries and everything else, and that he couldn't he

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Speaker 1: couldn't save his life. And it really affected him and

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Speaker 1: they were really close. I think that was that Fred,

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Speaker 1: our father, lost his best friend, So that was really sad.

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Speaker 2: Michael, you've talked about eating in restaurants, about eating in

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Speaker 2: our parents' house, but you really haven't talked about, as

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Speaker 2: I said in my n touch in the fact that

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Speaker 2: you are a really good cook, and so what is

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Speaker 2: cooking like for you at home?

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Speaker 1: I think what I like to cook is from you,

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Speaker 1: and it's a connection to you, which is risotto. And

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Speaker 1: I think I make really good risotto and it's from

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Speaker 1: your recipe. The Amarone risotto is my favorite, and it's

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Speaker 1: just connects us. It's about showing love for somebody you

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Speaker 1: love and feeling loved by somebody who cooks for you,

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Speaker 1: who loves you. And I've had those two experiences of

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Speaker 1: cooking for my son when I was a single father

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Speaker 1: and cooking the things that he loved, and marrying Bianca Roberts,

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Speaker 1: who is a great cook, and everything she cooks is

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Speaker 1: with love for me. She has the experience of living

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Speaker 1: in France and Switzerland, and she makes the best French dishes,

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Speaker 1: and her blanket a veal is something that is special

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Speaker 1: for me. So those are two things. So that's my

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Speaker 1: connection to food. And sometimes it doesn't matter what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's just a way of showing and getting the warmth

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Speaker 1: and comfort of somebody who you love.

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Speaker 2: I think we've talked about food is a memory, food

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Speaker 2: is history, food is family, food is friends and travel,

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Speaker 2: Food is life, and food is death. Food is also comfort.

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Speaker 2: It is comfort is the comfort we have when we're alone,

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Speaker 2: or we're sad or in pain, or it's just been

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Speaker 2: as simple as a hard day of just a hard day,

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Speaker 2: or maybe even a hard couple of hours. And so

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Speaker 2: a question that I always ask everyone else, so I

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Speaker 2: would like to ask my brother is what would be

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Speaker 2: your comfort food? Michael Elias?

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Speaker 1: I think my comfort food would be our aunt Florence's

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Speaker 1: cheese Blinzers. What is a blinsa?

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Speaker 2: I know what a blinsa is, and you know, but

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Speaker 2: there might be a whole lot of people out there

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Speaker 2: that do not know what a blinsa is.

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Speaker 1: Oh, A blinca is a thin pancake stuffed with delicious

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Speaker 1: kind of sweetened cottage cheese and some sugar and then

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Speaker 1: fold it over and fried in butter, and you put

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Speaker 1: sour cream on it or apple sauce. To your taste.

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Speaker 1: I'm a sour cream guy. Our aunt Florence lived in

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Speaker 1: Stockton and periodically she would send me via a bus

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Speaker 1: a box of her frozen cheese Blinzers, and I would

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Speaker 1: eat them until there were no more, and then she

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Speaker 1: would send me another box. And the last box she

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Speaker 1: sent me she died while I was in the middle

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Speaker 1: of eating those cheese Blinzers, and I wanted to make

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Speaker 1: them last as long as I could. So whenever I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling when I need something that really connects me to

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Speaker 1: my family, our family, our heritage, the generosity and the

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Speaker 1: beauty of the women who cooked in our family, I

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Speaker 1: go and find somewhere a deli that I can get

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Speaker 1: cheese Blintzes.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is a connection. And I might not be

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Speaker 2: a Blins, but I am your sister, and I love you,

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Speaker 2: and I think we find comfort in each other, loving

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Speaker 2: each other, and I'm so happy we did this together.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Michael. If you like listening to Ruthie's Table

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Speaker 2: for would you please make sure to rate and review

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Speaker 2: the podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

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Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: A