WEBVTT - The Science of Regret 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:31.596 Pushkin. I don't think we've done a very good job 0:00:31.596 --> 0:00:35.316 equipping people with how to deal with negative emotions. I 0:00:35.356 --> 0:00:37.156 think at some level we've sold them a bill of 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:39.636 goods about the need to be positive all the time, 0:00:39.796 --> 0:00:41.796 and what we should be doing is saying, yeah, have 0:00:41.956 --> 0:00:45.076 lots of positive emotions, they make life fantastic, but you're 0:00:45.076 --> 0:00:47.756 going to have some negative emotions. And these negative emotions 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:51.156 are adaptive, they're functional if you know how to treat them. 0:00:51.196 --> 0:00:54.636 That's best selling author Dan Pink, who believes that negative 0:00:54.676 --> 0:00:57.036 emotions can be a force for good in our lives. 0:00:57.756 --> 0:01:00.996 Dan is most interested in the emotion of regret, which 0:01:01.036 --> 0:01:03.476 is the focus of his book The Power of Regret, 0:01:03.756 --> 0:01:07.396 How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. But it took Dan 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:09.956 a while to figure out why regret was such a 0:01:10.036 --> 0:01:13.796 valuable emotion. You know, reading through all these regrets every 0:01:13.876 --> 0:01:16.116 day here in my office, why was I not more 0:01:16.156 --> 0:01:18.756 bummed out? I got these people opening up their hearts 0:01:18.756 --> 0:01:20.836 and telling me the mistakes that they made and how 0:01:20.916 --> 0:01:23.276 terrible they feel about it. Why did they not bring 0:01:23.316 --> 0:01:28.156 me down? And I finally, over time realized that when 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:30.076 people tell you what they regret the most, they're telling 0:01:30.076 --> 0:01:35.636 you what they value the most. On today's episode, how 0:01:35.636 --> 0:01:39.276 to transform our relationship with regret to live happier and 0:01:39.396 --> 0:01:43.716 more fulfilling lives. I'm Maya Shunker, and this is a 0:01:43.756 --> 0:01:46.316 slight change of plants, a show about who we are 0:01:46.516 --> 0:01:52.956 and who we become in the face of a big change. 0:02:01.076 --> 0:02:04.196 So I guess I'll start Dan by talking about how 0:02:04.276 --> 0:02:07.556 much I loved this very visceral description of regret that 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:11.196 you share in your book. You call it the stomach 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:14.116 churning feeling that the present would be better, in the 0:02:14.156 --> 0:02:18.156 future brighter, if only you hadn't chosen so poorly, decided 0:02:18.276 --> 0:02:22.076 so wrongly, or acted so stupidly in the past. Of 0:02:22.116 --> 0:02:24.556 all the feelings to study, why did you choose this 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:29.316 one to examine in particular? Because my stomach was churning, 0:02:29.996 --> 0:02:33.116 because I had that emotion and I wasn't sure what 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:36.316 to do about it, And at some level I was 0:02:36.356 --> 0:02:38.956 at a point in my life where, to my surprise, 0:02:39.716 --> 0:02:41.996 I had Mila john By, I had a room to 0:02:42.036 --> 0:02:44.436 look back, and like many people who look backward, I 0:02:44.476 --> 0:02:48.316 look backward and I see, Oh, if only I had 0:02:48.356 --> 0:02:50.796 been kinder, if only I had taken more risks, if 0:02:50.836 --> 0:02:53.596 only I had worked harder if only I had done 0:02:53.596 --> 0:02:56.636 that rather than that, And my stomach was churning in 0:02:56.676 --> 0:02:59.236 a way that made me want to talk about it. 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:01.916 And when I very tenderly began mentioning it to other people, 0:03:01.956 --> 0:03:05.356 I discovered that everybody wanted to talk about regret, and 0:03:05.396 --> 0:03:08.236 that our perception of this emotion and what it meant 0:03:08.236 --> 0:03:11.076 to people was very different from how it lived in 0:03:11.116 --> 0:03:14.676 people's hearts and heads. Yeah, I love that. I think 0:03:15.156 --> 0:03:18.036 you probably identified there was something counterintuitive we might discover 0:03:18.756 --> 0:03:21.076 if you were to go down that path. Before we 0:03:21.116 --> 0:03:24.436 analyze how regret affects our lives, I first want to 0:03:24.436 --> 0:03:28.316 recognize just how remarkable it is that we as humans 0:03:28.316 --> 0:03:31.116 are even capable of feeling this thing called regret. I mean, 0:03:31.156 --> 0:03:34.356 as a cognitive scientist, I'm always marveling at human abilities, 0:03:34.356 --> 0:03:36.716 but this one, in particular kind of knoxster socks off. 0:03:37.556 --> 0:03:40.796 You say that our ability to feel regret depends on 0:03:41.276 --> 0:03:44.956 at least two pretty complex mental abilities. Do you mind 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:48.436 painting a picture of what those are? Sure? The two 0:03:48.436 --> 0:03:52.436 mental abilities are time travel and storytelling. So time travel 0:03:52.676 --> 0:03:56.076 is essential in our ability to experience regret. If you 0:03:56.076 --> 0:03:58.276 think about this, So suppose that somebody has a regret 0:03:58.396 --> 0:04:02.556 about marrying Steve rather than Bob. I married Steve, and 0:04:02.556 --> 0:04:04.636 I should have married Bob if only I'd marry Bob. 0:04:04.676 --> 0:04:06.076 All right, So the thing about that, so what are 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:08.796 you doing. You're getting into a time machine and your 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:11.836 traveling back in time to when you first got to 0:04:11.876 --> 0:04:15.796 know Steve and Bob. Now, that itself is pretty amazing 0:04:15.996 --> 0:04:19.076 that we can travel through time in our heads. That's 0:04:19.196 --> 0:04:22.476 amazing in itself. But wait, there's more, because what we 0:04:22.596 --> 0:04:26.316 do is we go back and imagine what happened, but 0:04:26.476 --> 0:04:31.836 then rewrite the story, essentially negate what really happened, overwrite 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:34.556 it with our own tail. Hey I'm going to marry Bob. 0:04:34.916 --> 0:04:37.596 That's amazing too. But wait, there's more, because then we 0:04:37.636 --> 0:04:40.676 get back in our time machine and come back to 0:04:40.716 --> 0:04:44.556 the present, and suddenly the present looks entirely different because 0:04:44.596 --> 0:04:50.116 we've reconfigured the past. And so that's an incredible cognitive ability. 0:04:50.156 --> 0:04:54.596 This ability of counterfactual thinking. Counterfactual thinking is when we 0:04:54.836 --> 0:04:57.796 imagine a situation that runs counter to the actual facts. 0:04:58.236 --> 0:05:02.556 So counterfactual thinking can be it rained yesterday, if only 0:05:02.596 --> 0:05:05.396 it were sunny yesterday, that's counterfactual thinking. How would my 0:05:05.436 --> 0:05:07.916 life be different if it were sunny yesterday. It's one 0:05:07.956 --> 0:05:10.076 reason why I mean, as a a scientists, you know 0:05:10.356 --> 0:05:12.476 that little kids can't do this. Their brains are not 0:05:12.596 --> 0:05:17.196 fully developed enough to do this kind of processing. So 0:05:17.276 --> 0:05:19.556 I love to dig into the fact that kids can't 0:05:19.596 --> 0:05:23.716 do this because it is fascinating from a child development perspective. Absolutely. So. 0:05:24.596 --> 0:05:28.396 This is an experiment done by a couple of developmental 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:32.196 psychologists and what they did is they told kids a 0:05:32.756 --> 0:05:36.036 story about two boys. One was named Bob and one 0:05:36.116 --> 0:05:39.156 was named David. Now these boys live near each other, 0:05:39.396 --> 0:05:42.996 and each day Bob and David would each ride their 0:05:43.036 --> 0:05:47.196 bikes to school and they would take a path that 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:51.316 went around a pond. Now, you can go around the 0:05:51.396 --> 0:05:53.436 right side of the pond to get to school, or 0:05:53.476 --> 0:05:56.036 you can go around the left side of the pond 0:05:56.316 --> 0:06:00.396 to get to school, and both paths are equidistant. It's 0:06:00.436 --> 0:06:03.916 the same length, the same amount of time. But every 0:06:03.996 --> 0:06:07.236 day Bob goes around the right side of the pond 0:06:07.556 --> 0:06:11.156 and David goes around the left side of the pond. Okay, 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:13.556 so what they tell the kids is, this is the 0:06:13.596 --> 0:06:17.796 following story. One morning, Bob rides around the right side 0:06:17.796 --> 0:06:22.076 of the pond, but unbeknownst to Bob, a tree has fallen, 0:06:22.676 --> 0:06:26.516 smacking itself into the center of the path, and Bob 0:06:26.556 --> 0:06:30.116 collides with the branch. He falls off the bike, He 0:06:30.196 --> 0:06:33.116 hurts himself and is late to school. The left side 0:06:33.116 --> 0:06:38.196 of the path was fine now that same morning, David 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:40.996 who gets up. I guess a little bit later, David 0:06:41.276 --> 0:06:44.756 who always takes the left side of the pond. He says, no, 0:06:44.916 --> 0:06:46.796 what today, I want to take the right side of 0:06:46.836 --> 0:06:51.116 the pond. David also hits the branch, he gets thrown 0:06:51.116 --> 0:06:54.036 off his bike, He's injured two and he is late 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:58.196 for school. And so the question that these researchers asked 0:06:58.316 --> 0:07:02.876 these young children is who would be more upset about 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:06.876 riding along the path that went around the right side 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:10.196 of the pond. Bob who does it every day, David 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:12.636 who just did it that one day, or would they 0:07:12.636 --> 0:07:15.836 feel the same? So five year olds said, ah, they'd 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:17.836 be the same. They would be totally bombed out because 0:07:17.876 --> 0:07:19.716 they hit a branch and fell out their bike and 0:07:19.756 --> 0:07:23.956 relate to school. But seven year olds realized that it 0:07:24.036 --> 0:07:27.676 was actually David who would be more upset because he 0:07:27.836 --> 0:07:31.956 deviated from his ordinary path. He'd be more likely to 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:35.756 feel regret. In this case, exactly, David would feel more 0:07:35.876 --> 0:07:39.116 regret because a seven year old is saying, if only 0:07:40.276 --> 0:07:43.396 David had taken the left side of the pond, he 0:07:43.436 --> 0:07:46.716 would have avoided that branch and gotten to school safely 0:07:46.876 --> 0:07:49.596 and on time. You know, five year olds and seven 0:07:49.676 --> 0:07:52.596 year olds are only two years apart, but a lot 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:56.036 goes on in that time for these young brains to 0:07:56.116 --> 0:07:59.876 acquire the strength and the muscularity to perform this kind 0:07:59.876 --> 0:08:02.716 of mental trapeze act that we're talking about, where you're 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:06.676 swinging back and forth between past and present, between reality 0:08:06.716 --> 0:08:12.156 and imagination. That's a very hard act to perform. And 0:08:12.596 --> 0:08:15.596 you need the muscle memory, you need the strength, you 0:08:15.636 --> 0:08:19.116 need the dexterity, and that happens somewhere probably between the 0:08:19.156 --> 0:08:21.556 ages of five and seven. Yeah. Man, it's so funny. 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:24.596 I'm literally in this moment, I'm feeling star struck by 0:08:24.636 --> 0:08:27.796 our own minds, so part of me while I just 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:30.196 have a moment. It's incredible. Though I'm such a nerd. 0:08:30.716 --> 0:08:34.876 I'm with you. I'm astonishing what our minds can do. 0:08:34.996 --> 0:08:39.276 I mean, it should, honestly, it should take our breath away. 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:41.596 That is when I was reading the Neuroscience and the 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:45.716 cognitive science. It's like, Wow, our brains are awesome. They're 0:08:45.756 --> 0:08:49.676 a little glitchy and certain circumstances, but it's a pretty 0:08:49.716 --> 0:08:52.356 good piece of equipment. You know. I'm not returning it 0:08:52.396 --> 0:08:55.516 to the factory. I've said. I've said before, I feel 0:08:55.516 --> 0:08:58.236 like we as humans are so hard on ourselves, but 0:08:58.316 --> 0:09:01.636 actually we should just feel like we're crushing it every 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:04.796 moment of our existence, just by virtue of existing and 0:09:04.836 --> 0:09:07.156 doing like nine percent of the things we do on 0:09:07.236 --> 0:09:10.196 any given day. So, you know, who needs celebrity sightings? Dan, 0:09:10.276 --> 0:09:12.196 When you got the human brain, That's what I say, 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:15.276 you can get absolutely Just pull up your just pull 0:09:15.316 --> 0:09:18.676 up your your MRI. You'll and you'll see that's that's 0:09:18.716 --> 0:09:22.276 your celebrity sighting for the day. That's exactly right. Um okay. 0:09:22.276 --> 0:09:25.956 So to summarize the Bob and David's study, we see 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:28.596 that five year olds are able to identify, of course, 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:31.756 that Bob and David are both experiencing negative emotions, right, 0:09:31.796 --> 0:09:34.756 They're probably feeling sad, there might be a little concerned 0:09:34.796 --> 0:09:38.116 about the bruises they have. Then there's this huge developmental 0:09:38.156 --> 0:09:41.316 milestone where for the first time we seem to understand 0:09:41.356 --> 0:09:44.956 intuitively that David would feel more of this thing called 0:09:44.996 --> 0:09:48.316 regret than Bob would. And so with that in mind, 0:09:49.236 --> 0:09:51.796 you know, there's lots of negative emotions we feel, and 0:09:52.036 --> 0:09:53.276 one of the things you do in your book is 0:09:53.316 --> 0:09:57.076 you differentiate regret from some of these other negative emotions. 0:09:57.516 --> 0:10:00.796 I'm curious to hear what you see as the necessary 0:10:00.916 --> 0:10:05.196 ingredients for feeling regret as opposed to another kind of 0:10:05.276 --> 0:10:08.356 negative emotion. What race You're very different? Are two things. 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:13.316 It's compare and it is blame essentially, So with regret, 0:10:13.436 --> 0:10:16.916 we compare one set of circumstances to another set of circumstances. 0:10:16.916 --> 0:10:21.236 So regret doesn't exist in absolute terms. It exists in 0:10:21.316 --> 0:10:25.876 comparative terms, and so we're comparing one set of circumstances. 0:10:25.876 --> 0:10:28.716 It's a set of facts to another imagined set of facts. 0:10:29.556 --> 0:10:33.676 Perhaps even more important is blaming. Regret is your fault, 0:10:33.916 --> 0:10:36.356 all right, and that makes it different from other kinds 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:38.876 of emotions. It makes it different from, say, the emotion 0:10:39.076 --> 0:10:43.756 of disappointment. I could feel disappointed that it's raining today, 0:10:43.956 --> 0:10:46.436 but I can't feel regret that it's raining because I 0:10:46.476 --> 0:10:50.276 don't control the skies. I can feel regret if I 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:52.676 leave the house without an umbrella, and I know that 0:10:52.716 --> 0:10:57.116 it's raining because that's on me. But regret and disappointment, 0:10:57.276 --> 0:11:01.636 the big demarcation is agency. Regret is your fault. And 0:11:01.716 --> 0:11:04.236 for those listening who are as self critical as I am, 0:11:04.356 --> 0:11:07.556 this is also why regret stings so much, right because 0:11:07.556 --> 0:11:10.156 of this agency component. It just makes it such a 0:11:10.196 --> 0:11:14.796 painful feeling, right because you can't pin it on somebody else. Okay, So, 0:11:14.836 --> 0:11:17.716 now that we have a better handle on what regret 0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:21.676 is and the conditions that must be satisfied in order 0:11:21.756 --> 0:11:24.516 for us to feel regret, let's talk for a bit 0:11:24.516 --> 0:11:27.676 about how common it is for us to experience regret. Oh. 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:31.276 Absolutely so. There's research and social psychology from years ago 0:11:31.356 --> 0:11:34.636 showing that in people's everyday conversations, the negative emotion that 0:11:34.676 --> 0:11:37.236 people expressed the most in everyday to conversations is regret. 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:39.996 It was, in this particular piece of research the second 0:11:39.996 --> 0:11:43.796 most common emotion of any kind that they expressed, even 0:11:43.836 --> 0:11:47.236 after love. And one of the exciting things about this 0:11:47.236 --> 0:11:49.036 project was I was able to do some research of 0:11:49.116 --> 0:11:51.476 my own, and I was able to conduct a very 0:11:51.636 --> 0:11:55.756 large quantitative survey, the largest public opinion survey of American 0:11:55.756 --> 0:11:58.676 attitudes about regret ever conducted, and I asked people a 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.516 bunch of questions, including the question how often do you 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:04.756 look back on your life and wish you had done 0:12:04.756 --> 0:12:08.676 things differently? Now I agonize over the wording of that 0:12:08.756 --> 0:12:13.116 question because I wanted to describe regret without saying it. Yeah, 0:12:13.156 --> 0:12:15.596 but I didn't want to use the R word because 0:12:15.716 --> 0:12:17.796 there's such a stigma attached to the R word. And 0:12:17.876 --> 0:12:20.916 what we found is that eighty two percent of the 0:12:20.996 --> 0:12:25.036 US population did this thing at least occasionally. We have 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:28.756 this performed idea that I have no regrets. I always 0:12:28.796 --> 0:12:32.476 look forward, I never look backward. But the proceuge of 0:12:32.476 --> 0:12:36.796 people who said they never do this was one percent. 0:12:38.116 --> 0:12:40.996 You know, in this culture, especially Western culture, where it's 0:12:41.036 --> 0:12:44.356 you know, it's all about positive emotions, all about positive feelings, Luke, 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:46.636 with no regrets is the anthem that people are just 0:12:46.676 --> 0:12:49.996 screaming from the rooftops. One thing that really landed with 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:52.916 me when reading your book, as you say, to live 0:12:53.076 --> 0:12:56.396 is to accumulate at least some regret. It is almost 0:12:56.556 --> 0:12:59.276 definitionally the case that if one has lived, they will 0:12:59.316 --> 0:13:02.596 feel regret. And I think there's actually a common element 0:13:02.636 --> 0:13:06.396 to that message. Yeah, I agree, I'll see that point 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:09.036 and raise you and say that if you're feeling regrets 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:11.516 actually a good sign. It's like, oh, my cognitive machinery 0:13:11.596 --> 0:13:15.316 is working. I am experiencing regret. If you don't experience 0:13:15.316 --> 0:13:20.516 a regret, truly, it's a sign of a potentially grave problem. 0:13:20.516 --> 0:13:23.236 You know. It's interesting, Dan, because when we engage in 0:13:23.436 --> 0:13:27.316 mental time travel and counterfactual thinking, we don't have to 0:13:27.356 --> 0:13:30.996 imagine how things could have gone better, right. We could 0:13:31.036 --> 0:13:34.076 instead imagine how things could have gone far worse. But 0:13:34.156 --> 0:13:37.316 what's interesting is that we as humans have a very 0:13:37.396 --> 0:13:41.196 strong bias towards the former, which helps explain why we 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.196 so often regret things. And you capture this point really 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:47.396 nicely when you talk about framing a thought in terms 0:13:47.436 --> 0:13:51.716 of at least versus if only yes. So, when we 0:13:51.716 --> 0:13:54.836 think about counterfactual thinking, there are two different varieties of it. 0:13:54.876 --> 0:13:58.276 One is an upward counterfactual. So you imagine how things 0:13:58.476 --> 0:14:03.276 could have been better if only I had become an 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:06.676 accountant rather than an engineer. Everything in my life would 0:14:06.716 --> 0:14:11.396 be fantastic, Right, so you imagine a better scenario upward 0:14:11.476 --> 0:14:14.916 kund of factuals if only make us feel worse, but 0:14:15.036 --> 0:14:17.756 they can help us do better. But there's another kind 0:14:17.756 --> 0:14:21.836 of counterfactual, a downward counterfactual, where you imagine how things 0:14:21.876 --> 0:14:26.636 could have become worse, and so you say, oh, I 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:31.316 shouldn't have married Edward, but at least I have these 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:33.836 two great kids. You find the silver lining in that. 0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:36.556 What that does is that minimizes the sting. It makes 0:14:36.556 --> 0:14:39.396 you feel better, but it doesn't help you necessarily do better. 0:14:39.436 --> 0:14:42.076 And I think what's curious is that we're much more 0:14:42.116 --> 0:14:46.236 inclined to do the counterfactual thinking that makes us feel worse. 0:14:47.036 --> 0:14:52.316 Our brains are built for progress and efficiency, and they 0:14:52.396 --> 0:14:56.596 know that those upward counterfactuals, those if only while they hurt, 0:14:57.196 --> 0:14:58.876 they're going to make us better if we do it right. 0:14:59.956 --> 0:15:03.996 There's a really interesting study around Olympians and their response 0:15:04.036 --> 0:15:07.316 to winning different types of metals that I think illustrates 0:15:07.316 --> 0:15:10.316 this at least if only kind of thinking. Very well, 0:15:10.436 --> 0:15:14.476 do you mind sharing that study? This is a really 0:15:14.516 --> 0:15:19.036 really interesting study of Olympic medalists. And what they did 0:15:19.196 --> 0:15:24.236 is they showed a group of participants photographs of medalists 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:28.356 on the Olympic platform, the gold medal winner, the silver 0:15:28.476 --> 0:15:33.036 medal winner, the bronze medal winner, except they blocked out 0:15:33.116 --> 0:15:38.236 the actual medals that these olympians won, and they had 0:15:38.276 --> 0:15:41.156 these participants who didn't know what the researchers were studying 0:15:41.676 --> 0:15:46.476 evaluate how happy the people looked, and they ranked the 0:15:46.476 --> 0:15:49.476 olympians based on how happy they were. And so, as 0:15:49.596 --> 0:15:52.596 we would expect, the person who won the gold medal 0:15:52.916 --> 0:15:56.356 looked the happiest, which makes sense, right, But then there 0:15:56.436 --> 0:15:58.636 was a bit of a surprise. The person who was 0:15:59.796 --> 0:16:04.436 the next happiest looking was the bronze medalist, and the 0:16:04.476 --> 0:16:09.516 silver medalist often didn't look all that happy, which is weird, right. 0:16:09.876 --> 0:16:12.116 You just want a silver medal in the Olympics. You 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:15.716 should be pumped two And except they weren't. The bronze 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:18.596 medalists were beaming. The bronze medalists in some cases, we're 0:16:18.636 --> 0:16:22.516 looking as happy as the gold medalist. And the way 0:16:22.556 --> 0:16:28.596 we explain this riddle is through counterfactual thinking. The bronze 0:16:28.596 --> 0:16:33.236 medalist is doing and at least a downward counterfactual. They're 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:36.276 imagining how things could have been worse. The bronze medals 0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:39.236 is saying iron and bronze medal, which is great because 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:42.356 at least it wasn't like that. Shmow finished fourth who's 0:16:42.396 --> 0:16:45.876 going home with no hardware but the silver medals is saying, 0:16:46.396 --> 0:16:50.316 if only I had they're a swimmer reached for the 0:16:50.436 --> 0:16:53.876 wall a little bit earlier. If only I had kicked 0:16:53.916 --> 0:16:57.756 a little harder, I would be wearing that gold medal 0:16:57.796 --> 0:17:02.236 instead of this crappy silver medal. Yeah. You know, naturally, 0:17:02.756 --> 0:17:05.316 regret gets a really bad rap, right, because as you've 0:17:05.316 --> 0:17:07.516 just described with that swimmer, and it's just such an 0:17:07.596 --> 0:17:10.476 unpleasant feeling that you make the case stand and I 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:13.396 think a very convincing case that we should see regret 0:17:13.396 --> 0:17:16.596 as something we should embrace and learn from. And so, 0:17:16.876 --> 0:17:19.156 what are some of the positive effects that you feel 0:17:19.356 --> 0:17:21.436 regret can have when we engage with it in the 0:17:21.516 --> 0:17:23.756 right way. Yeah, And the key is that we have 0:17:23.796 --> 0:17:25.636 to engage with it in the right way. I think 0:17:25.636 --> 0:17:28.796 too often we're kind of conditioned to ignore regrets. Oh 0:17:28.836 --> 0:17:30.796 it's negative, don't even think about it. Just move on, 0:17:30.956 --> 0:17:33.516 look forward, don't look back. That's a bad idea. But 0:17:33.596 --> 0:17:35.956 sometimes I think if we're not equipped to deal with 0:17:35.996 --> 0:17:40.196 it properly, we get captured by our regrets. We wallow 0:17:40.236 --> 0:17:42.996 on them, we ruminate on them. Yeah, what we should 0:17:42.996 --> 0:17:47.396 be doing is listening to our regrets, confronting them, using 0:17:47.396 --> 0:17:50.076 them as signals, as data, as information. And when we 0:17:50.116 --> 0:17:52.596 do that, there are many many benefits. For instance, there's 0:17:52.636 --> 0:17:55.596 research and social psychologies showing that it can help make 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:58.956 us better negotiators. You do a negotiation, you think about 0:17:58.956 --> 0:18:01.316 what you regret in that negotiation, you often do better 0:18:01.316 --> 0:18:03.236 in the next one. It can help us become better 0:18:03.276 --> 0:18:07.156 problem solvers, better strategists. There's even evidence that it can 0:18:07.196 --> 0:18:10.636 actually help us deepen sense of meaning in our lives. 0:18:10.876 --> 0:18:14.756 And so when we treat this emotion properly, and that's 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:17.676 a big if we can use it as an engine 0:18:17.716 --> 0:18:20.836 for moving forward. Yeah, regrets really serving as a catalyst 0:18:20.836 --> 0:18:24.996 here right, for actually driving meaningful action. Sure, And I 0:18:25.036 --> 0:18:27.596 think I think what's I think what's puzzling here is 0:18:27.756 --> 0:18:31.596 to people is that, you know, a solution in some 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:35.836 cases is to invite this negative emotion, not to bat 0:18:35.876 --> 0:18:38.116 it away, not to ignore it, but in some sense 0:18:38.156 --> 0:18:41.796 to invite it. And that seems a little counterintuitive because 0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:46.396 you're inviting something that feels bad. And the thing about 0:18:46.436 --> 0:18:51.276 regret is that regret can clarify what we value and 0:18:51.396 --> 0:18:54.596 instruct us on how to do better. And people like that, 0:18:55.276 --> 0:18:58.516 but it comes with discomfort. It comes with some amount 0:18:58.556 --> 0:19:02.196 of pain and people don't like that, but that's not 0:19:02.236 --> 0:19:04.916 the deal. It's a package deal. You've got to have both. 0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:08.516 And arguably I think that pain and discomfort is the 0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:12.556 source of the clarification and the instruction. Yeah, it's signaling 0:19:12.596 --> 0:19:14.516 to your brain that you've acted in a way that 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:18.756 might conflict with value exact for example. Yep. There's also 0:19:18.876 --> 0:19:21.276 research you talk about in your book that when we 0:19:21.316 --> 0:19:24.636 engage with regret in a meaningful, constructive way, it can 0:19:24.636 --> 0:19:27.396 also increase our performance. Do you mind talking about some 0:19:27.436 --> 0:19:29.996 of the studies in this area, sure. I mean there's 0:19:30.036 --> 0:19:33.596 a lot of research in experimental psychology where you give 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:37.716 people puzzles, especially anagrams, and what it shows in general 0:19:37.836 --> 0:19:40.396 is that you put people into a problem solving situation, 0:19:40.916 --> 0:19:43.276 they solve the problem, and then you ask them to 0:19:43.276 --> 0:19:45.996 reflect on what they regret doing or not doing in 0:19:46.036 --> 0:19:50.436 that problem solving exercise. Again, you're inviting this negative emotion. 0:19:50.956 --> 0:19:54.236 They often do better in the next round because they've 0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:56.636 felt bad. That bad feeling is a signal to the 0:19:56.636 --> 0:19:59.316 brain saying huh, maybe I should do things differently. It's 0:19:59.316 --> 0:20:03.276 a form of instruction, and so if you think about 0:20:03.276 --> 0:20:06.636 those puzzle solvers if they actually subscribe to the no 0:20:06.796 --> 0:20:11.156 regrets philosophy. They said, I screwed up this anagram. I 0:20:11.196 --> 0:20:13.036 did it slowly, I didn't get the right answer. But 0:20:13.476 --> 0:20:18.076 no regrets. I'm always positive, I never look backward. They're 0:20:18.116 --> 0:20:20.396 not going to get any better at performance on a 0:20:20.436 --> 0:20:25.156 whole array of problem solving skills. And how can regret 0:20:25.476 --> 0:20:28.396 deep in our sense of meaning? Well, I mean what 0:20:28.396 --> 0:20:31.236 it does in many cases that when we think about counterfactually, 0:20:32.076 --> 0:20:34.676 at some level, we sometimes will appreciate what we have, 0:20:34.716 --> 0:20:36.716 which deepens our sense of meaning. But it can also 0:20:36.756 --> 0:20:40.716 help clarify what we actually value in our lives. So 0:20:40.756 --> 0:20:45.596 there's one person I wrote about who regretted not spending 0:20:45.596 --> 0:20:48.596 time with her grandparents. Every winter of the grandparents would 0:20:48.636 --> 0:20:50.556 come and visit her, and she hated it. As a kid, 0:20:50.756 --> 0:20:52.956 she thought they were intruding, she didn't want to talk 0:20:52.996 --> 0:20:56.236 to them, she would standoffish, And when her grandparents passed away, 0:20:56.476 --> 0:20:59.916 she regretted it because she missed hearing their stories and 0:21:00.196 --> 0:21:03.916 hearing what their lives were about. And it actually prompted 0:21:03.996 --> 0:21:08.196 her to collect her own parents' stories because that feeling 0:21:08.236 --> 0:21:12.036 of regret spurred at least a quest for meaning and 0:21:12.196 --> 0:21:16.076 understanding of her own life and her own story. I 0:21:16.156 --> 0:21:18.076 want to dig in a bit to this notion of 0:21:18.756 --> 0:21:21.676 doing regret right, because I think this is so important. 0:21:22.436 --> 0:21:25.196 We want to make sure that we are not ignoring 0:21:25.596 --> 0:21:28.196 the negative feeling, ignoring the regret. We also want to 0:21:28.196 --> 0:21:29.876 make sure that we're not marinating in it, We're not 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:33.916 ruminating in this unproductive way. But just as importantly, we 0:21:33.996 --> 0:21:37.236 need to draw the right conclusion from the regret. And 0:21:37.956 --> 0:21:41.676 we shouldn't code or regret as something that reflects this 0:21:42.036 --> 0:21:46.836 deep underlying flaw in our character and our personality. Instead, 0:21:47.316 --> 0:21:50.556 we should evaluate that behavior in isolation. Right. It's just 0:21:50.676 --> 0:21:53.716 a reflection of a behavior in a particular moment of time, 0:21:54.316 --> 0:21:57.236 and we shouldn't overgeneralize, which we as humans so often do, 0:21:57.476 --> 0:22:00.996 especially again hypercritical people. Oh my god, this must mean 0:22:01.276 --> 0:22:03.676 that I am a bad person. This must mean that 0:22:03.756 --> 0:22:07.516 I'm a terrible decision maker, or what have you. That 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:11.556 is one of the secret to process and regret effectively. 0:22:11.676 --> 0:22:13.676 But I also think it's one of the secrets to 0:22:14.836 --> 0:22:18.796 leading a life where you're not torturing yourself. We say 0:22:18.956 --> 0:22:21.596 that if I made a mistake, I'm a bad person, 0:22:22.116 --> 0:22:24.236 rather than I did a stupid thing, and you're always 0:22:24.276 --> 0:22:27.636 better off evaluating the behavior rather than making some kind 0:22:27.676 --> 0:22:31.916 of broader assessment of the person. So there's a temporal 0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:34.876 aspect of it as well. You have to understand that 0:22:35.276 --> 0:22:38.996 any mistake that you make, any screw up, any regret, 0:22:39.196 --> 0:22:43.236 any blunder, is a moment in your life, not the 0:22:43.316 --> 0:22:47.156 full measure of your life. We're willing to make universal 0:22:47.236 --> 0:22:50.756 attributions about our entire lives based on a moment, always 0:22:50.796 --> 0:22:54.916 a negative moment, and essentially neglect the other ninety nine 0:22:56.156 --> 0:22:59.716 of our lives and our evaluation. Don't do that. That's 0:22:59.756 --> 0:23:03.396 a recipe for that's a recipe for unhappiness. And you know, 0:23:03.796 --> 0:23:06.076 when you explain this to people, they get it, and 0:23:06.236 --> 0:23:08.676 if you coach them, they can stop doing that. The 0:23:08.836 --> 0:23:11.436 problem is is that, I think it's a bigger problem 0:23:11.556 --> 0:23:12.916 is that I don't think we've done a very good 0:23:12.956 --> 0:23:16.436 job equipping people with how to deal with negative emotions. 0:23:16.756 --> 0:23:18.556 I think at some level we've sold them a bill 0:23:18.596 --> 0:23:21.076 of goods about the need to be positive all the time, 0:23:21.356 --> 0:23:23.276 and what we should be doing is saying, yeah, have 0:23:23.476 --> 0:23:26.636