1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:31,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I don't think we've done a very good job 2 00:00:31,596 --> 00:00:35,316 Speaker 1: equipping people with how to deal with negative emotions. I 3 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 1: think at some level we've sold them a bill of 4 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:39,636 Speaker 1: goods about the need to be positive all the time, 5 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:41,796 Speaker 1: and what we should be doing is saying, yeah, have 6 00:00:41,956 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 1: lots of positive emotions, they make life fantastic, but you're 7 00:00:45,076 --> 00:00:47,756 Speaker 1: going to have some negative emotions. And these negative emotions 8 00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:51,156 Speaker 1: are adaptive, they're functional if you know how to treat them. 9 00:00:51,196 --> 00:00:54,636 Speaker 1: That's best selling author Dan Pink, who believes that negative 10 00:00:54,676 --> 00:00:57,036 Speaker 1: emotions can be a force for good in our lives. 11 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:00,996 Speaker 1: Dan is most interested in the emotion of regret, which 12 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: is the focus of his book The Power of Regret, 13 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 1: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. But it took Dan 14 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:09,956 Speaker 1: a while to figure out why regret was such a 15 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:13,796 Speaker 1: valuable emotion. You know, reading through all these regrets every 16 00:01:13,876 --> 00:01:16,116 Speaker 1: day here in my office, why was I not more 17 00:01:16,156 --> 00:01:18,756 Speaker 1: bummed out? I got these people opening up their hearts 18 00:01:18,756 --> 00:01:20,836 Speaker 1: and telling me the mistakes that they made and how 19 00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:23,276 Speaker 1: terrible they feel about it. Why did they not bring 20 00:01:23,316 --> 00:01:28,156 Speaker 1: me down? And I finally, over time realized that when 21 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: people tell you what they regret the most, they're telling 22 00:01:30,076 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: you what they value the most. On today's episode, how 23 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:39,276 Speaker 1: to transform our relationship with regret to live happier and 24 00:01:39,396 --> 00:01:43,716 Speaker 1: more fulfilling lives. I'm Maya Shunker, and this is a 25 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: slight change of plants, a show about who we are 26 00:01:46,516 --> 00:01:52,956 Speaker 1: and who we become in the face of a big change. 27 00:02:01,076 --> 00:02:04,196 Speaker 1: So I guess I'll start Dan by talking about how 28 00:02:04,276 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 1: much I loved this very visceral description of regret that 29 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:11,196 Speaker 1: you share in your book. You call it the stomach 30 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:14,116 Speaker 1: churning feeling that the present would be better, in the 31 00:02:14,156 --> 00:02:18,156 Speaker 1: future brighter, if only you hadn't chosen so poorly, decided 32 00:02:18,276 --> 00:02:22,076 Speaker 1: so wrongly, or acted so stupidly in the past. Of 33 00:02:22,116 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: all the feelings to study, why did you choose this 34 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:29,316 Speaker 1: one to examine in particular? Because my stomach was churning, 35 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:33,116 Speaker 1: because I had that emotion and I wasn't sure what 36 00:02:33,156 --> 00:02:36,316 Speaker 1: to do about it, And at some level I was 37 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:38,956 Speaker 1: at a point in my life where, to my surprise, 38 00:02:39,716 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: I had Mila john By, I had a room to 39 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:44,436 Speaker 1: look back, and like many people who look backward, I 40 00:02:44,476 --> 00:02:48,316 Speaker 1: look backward and I see, Oh, if only I had 41 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:50,796 Speaker 1: been kinder, if only I had taken more risks, if 42 00:02:50,836 --> 00:02:53,596 Speaker 1: only I had worked harder if only I had done 43 00:02:53,596 --> 00:02:56,636 Speaker 1: that rather than that, And my stomach was churning in 44 00:02:56,676 --> 00:02:59,236 Speaker 1: a way that made me want to talk about it. 45 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:01,916 Speaker 1: And when I very tenderly began mentioning it to other people, 46 00:03:01,956 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 1: I discovered that everybody wanted to talk about regret, and 47 00:03:05,396 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 1: that our perception of this emotion and what it meant 48 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:11,076 Speaker 1: to people was very different from how it lived in 49 00:03:11,116 --> 00:03:14,676 Speaker 1: people's hearts and heads. Yeah, I love that. I think 50 00:03:15,156 --> 00:03:18,036 Speaker 1: you probably identified there was something counterintuitive we might discover 51 00:03:18,756 --> 00:03:21,076 Speaker 1: if you were to go down that path. Before we 52 00:03:21,116 --> 00:03:24,436 Speaker 1: analyze how regret affects our lives, I first want to 53 00:03:24,436 --> 00:03:28,316 Speaker 1: recognize just how remarkable it is that we as humans 54 00:03:28,316 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 1: are even capable of feeling this thing called regret. I mean, 55 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:34,356 Speaker 1: as a cognitive scientist, I'm always marveling at human abilities, 56 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 1: but this one, in particular kind of knoxster socks off. 57 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:40,796 Speaker 1: You say that our ability to feel regret depends on 58 00:03:41,276 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: at least two pretty complex mental abilities. Do you mind 59 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:48,436 Speaker 1: painting a picture of what those are? Sure? The two 60 00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: mental abilities are time travel and storytelling. So time travel 61 00:03:52,676 --> 00:03:56,076 Speaker 1: is essential in our ability to experience regret. If you 62 00:03:56,076 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: think about this, So suppose that somebody has a regret 63 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 1: about marrying Steve rather than Bob. I married Steve, and 64 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 1: I should have married Bob if only I'd marry Bob. 65 00:04:04,676 --> 00:04:06,076 Speaker 1: All right, So the thing about that, so what are 66 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:08,796 Speaker 1: you doing. You're getting into a time machine and your 67 00:04:08,796 --> 00:04:11,836 Speaker 1: traveling back in time to when you first got to 68 00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 1: know Steve and Bob. Now, that itself is pretty amazing 69 00:04:15,996 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: that we can travel through time in our heads. That's 70 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:22,476 Speaker 1: amazing in itself. But wait, there's more, because what we 71 00:04:22,596 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 1: do is we go back and imagine what happened, but 72 00:04:26,476 --> 00:04:31,836 Speaker 1: then rewrite the story, essentially negate what really happened, overwrite 73 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:34,556 Speaker 1: it with our own tail. Hey I'm going to marry Bob. 74 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:37,596 Speaker 1: That's amazing too. But wait, there's more, because then we 75 00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 1: get back in our time machine and come back to 76 00:04:40,716 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 1: the present, and suddenly the present looks entirely different because 77 00:04:44,596 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 1: we've reconfigured the past. And so that's an incredible cognitive ability. 78 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:54,596 Speaker 1: This ability of counterfactual thinking. Counterfactual thinking is when we 79 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:57,796 Speaker 1: imagine a situation that runs counter to the actual facts. 80 00:04:58,236 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 1: So counterfactual thinking can be it rained yesterday, if only 81 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: it were sunny yesterday, that's counterfactual thinking. How would my 82 00:05:05,436 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 1: life be different if it were sunny yesterday. It's one 83 00:05:07,956 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 1: reason why I mean, as a a scientists, you know 84 00:05:10,356 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 1: that little kids can't do this. Their brains are not 85 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:17,196 Speaker 1: fully developed enough to do this kind of processing. So 86 00:05:17,276 --> 00:05:19,556 Speaker 1: I love to dig into the fact that kids can't 87 00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 1: do this because it is fascinating from a child development perspective. Absolutely. So. 88 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:28,396 Speaker 1: This is an experiment done by a couple of developmental 89 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:32,196 Speaker 1: psychologists and what they did is they told kids a 90 00:05:32,756 --> 00:05:36,036 Speaker 1: story about two boys. One was named Bob and one 91 00:05:36,116 --> 00:05:39,156 Speaker 1: was named David. Now these boys live near each other, 92 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:42,996 Speaker 1: and each day Bob and David would each ride their 93 00:05:43,036 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 1: bikes to school and they would take a path that 94 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:51,316 Speaker 1: went around a pond. Now, you can go around the 95 00:05:51,396 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 1: right side of the pond to get to school, or 96 00:05:53,476 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 1: you can go around the left side of the pond 97 00:05:56,316 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 1: to get to school, and both paths are equidistant. It's 98 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 1: the same length, the same amount of time. But every 99 00:06:03,996 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: day Bob goes around the right side of the pond 100 00:06:07,556 --> 00:06:11,156 Speaker 1: and David goes around the left side of the pond. Okay, 101 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 1: so what they tell the kids is, this is the 102 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:17,796 Speaker 1: following story. One morning, Bob rides around the right side 103 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:22,076 Speaker 1: of the pond, but unbeknownst to Bob, a tree has fallen, 104 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:26,516 Speaker 1: smacking itself into the center of the path, and Bob 105 00:06:26,556 --> 00:06:30,116 Speaker 1: collides with the branch. He falls off the bike, He 106 00:06:30,196 --> 00:06:33,116 Speaker 1: hurts himself and is late to school. The left side 107 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 1: of the path was fine now that same morning, David 108 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:40,996 Speaker 1: who gets up. I guess a little bit later, David 109 00:06:41,276 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 1: who always takes the left side of the pond. He says, no, 110 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:46,796 Speaker 1: what today, I want to take the right side of 111 00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:51,116 Speaker 1: the pond. David also hits the branch, he gets thrown 112 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:54,036 Speaker 1: off his bike, He's injured two and he is late 113 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:58,196 Speaker 1: for school. And so the question that these researchers asked 114 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 1: these young children is who would be more upset about 115 00:07:03,116 --> 00:07:06,876 Speaker 1: riding along the path that went around the right side 116 00:07:06,876 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 1: of the pond. Bob who does it every day, David 117 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 1: who just did it that one day, or would they 118 00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:15,836 Speaker 1: feel the same? So five year olds said, ah, they'd 119 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 1: be the same. They would be totally bombed out because 120 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:19,716 Speaker 1: they hit a branch and fell out their bike and 121 00:07:19,756 --> 00:07:23,956 Speaker 1: relate to school. But seven year olds realized that it 122 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:27,676 Speaker 1: was actually David who would be more upset because he 123 00:07:27,836 --> 00:07:31,956 Speaker 1: deviated from his ordinary path. He'd be more likely to 124 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:35,756 Speaker 1: feel regret. In this case, exactly, David would feel more 125 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:39,116 Speaker 1: regret because a seven year old is saying, if only 126 00:07:40,276 --> 00:07:43,396 Speaker 1: David had taken the left side of the pond, he 127 00:07:43,436 --> 00:07:46,716 Speaker 1: would have avoided that branch and gotten to school safely 128 00:07:46,876 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 1: and on time. You know, five year olds and seven 129 00:07:49,676 --> 00:07:52,596 Speaker 1: year olds are only two years apart, but a lot 130 00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: goes on in that time for these young brains to 131 00:07:56,116 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: acquire the strength and the muscularity to perform this kind 132 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:02,716 Speaker 1: of mental trapeze act that we're talking about, where you're 133 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:06,676 Speaker 1: swinging back and forth between past and present, between reality 134 00:08:06,716 --> 00:08:12,156 Speaker 1: and imagination. That's a very hard act to perform. And 135 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:15,596 Speaker 1: you need the muscle memory, you need the strength, you 136 00:08:15,636 --> 00:08:19,116 Speaker 1: need the dexterity, and that happens somewhere probably between the 137 00:08:19,156 --> 00:08:21,556 Speaker 1: ages of five and seven. Yeah. Man, it's so funny. 138 00:08:21,556 --> 00:08:24,596 Speaker 1: I'm literally in this moment, I'm feeling star struck by 139 00:08:24,636 --> 00:08:27,796 Speaker 1: our own minds, so part of me while I just 140 00:08:27,836 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: have a moment. It's incredible. Though I'm such a nerd. 141 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 1: I'm with you. I'm astonishing what our minds can do. 142 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: I mean, it should, honestly, it should take our breath away. 143 00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:41,596 Speaker 1: That is when I was reading the Neuroscience and the 144 00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:45,716 Speaker 1: cognitive science. It's like, Wow, our brains are awesome. They're 145 00:08:45,756 --> 00:08:49,676 Speaker 1: a little glitchy and certain circumstances, but it's a pretty 146 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: good piece of equipment. You know. I'm not returning it 147 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 1: to the factory. I've said. I've said before, I feel 148 00:08:55,516 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 1: like we as humans are so hard on ourselves, but 149 00:08:58,316 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: actually we should just feel like we're crushing it every 150 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:04,796 Speaker 1: moment of our existence, just by virtue of existing and 151 00:09:04,836 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 1: doing like nine percent of the things we do on 152 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:10,196 Speaker 1: any given day. So, you know, who needs celebrity sightings? Dan, 153 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 1: When you got the human brain, That's what I say, 154 00:09:12,436 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 1: you can get absolutely Just pull up your just pull 155 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:18,676 Speaker 1: up your your MRI. You'll and you'll see that's that's 156 00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:22,276 Speaker 1: your celebrity sighting for the day. That's exactly right. Um okay. 157 00:09:22,276 --> 00:09:25,956 Speaker 1: So to summarize the Bob and David's study, we see 158 00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:28,596 Speaker 1: that five year olds are able to identify, of course, 159 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 1: that Bob and David are both experiencing negative emotions, right, 160 00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: They're probably feeling sad, there might be a little concerned 161 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:38,116 Speaker 1: about the bruises they have. Then there's this huge developmental 162 00:09:38,156 --> 00:09:41,316 Speaker 1: milestone where for the first time we seem to understand 163 00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:44,956 Speaker 1: intuitively that David would feel more of this thing called 164 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:48,316 Speaker 1: regret than Bob would. And so with that in mind, 165 00:09:49,236 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of negative emotions we feel, and 166 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:53,276 Speaker 1: one of the things you do in your book is 167 00:09:53,316 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 1: you differentiate regret from some of these other negative emotions. 168 00:09:57,516 --> 00:10:00,796 Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear what you see as the necessary 169 00:10:00,916 --> 00:10:05,196 Speaker 1: ingredients for feeling regret as opposed to another kind of 170 00:10:05,276 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: negative emotion. What race You're very different? Are two things. 171 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 1: It's compare and it is blame essentially, So with regret, 172 00:10:13,436 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 1: we compare one set of circumstances to another set of circumstances. 173 00:10:16,916 --> 00:10:21,236 Speaker 1: So regret doesn't exist in absolute terms. It exists in 174 00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 1: comparative terms, and so we're comparing one set of circumstances. 175 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:28,716 Speaker 1: It's a set of facts to another imagined set of facts. 176 00:10:29,556 --> 00:10:33,676 Speaker 1: Perhaps even more important is blaming. Regret is your fault, 177 00:10:33,916 --> 00:10:36,356 Speaker 1: all right, and that makes it different from other kinds 178 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: of emotions. It makes it different from, say, the emotion 179 00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:43,756 Speaker 1: of disappointment. I could feel disappointed that it's raining today, 180 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 1: but I can't feel regret that it's raining because I 181 00:10:46,476 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 1: don't control the skies. I can feel regret if I 182 00:10:50,356 --> 00:10:52,676 Speaker 1: leave the house without an umbrella, and I know that 183 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 1: it's raining because that's on me. But regret and disappointment, 184 00:10:57,276 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 1: the big demarcation is agency. Regret is your fault. And 185 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 1: for those listening who are as self critical as I am, 186 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 1: this is also why regret stings so much, right because 187 00:11:07,556 --> 00:11:10,156 Speaker 1: of this agency component. It just makes it such a 188 00:11:10,196 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 1: painful feeling, right because you can't pin it on somebody else. Okay, So, 189 00:11:14,836 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 1: now that we have a better handle on what regret 190 00:11:17,836 --> 00:11:21,676 Speaker 1: is and the conditions that must be satisfied in order 191 00:11:21,756 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 1: for us to feel regret, let's talk for a bit 192 00:11:24,516 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: about how common it is for us to experience regret. Oh. 193 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:31,276 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. There's research and social psychology from years ago 194 00:11:31,356 --> 00:11:34,636 Speaker 1: showing that in people's everyday conversations, the negative emotion that 195 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: people expressed the most in everyday to conversations is regret. 196 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 1: It was, in this particular piece of research the second 197 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:43,796 Speaker 1: most common emotion of any kind that they expressed, even 198 00:11:43,836 --> 00:11:47,236 Speaker 1: after love. And one of the exciting things about this 199 00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 1: project was I was able to do some research of 200 00:11:49,116 --> 00:11:51,476 Speaker 1: my own, and I was able to conduct a very 201 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:55,756 Speaker 1: large quantitative survey, the largest public opinion survey of American 202 00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:58,676 Speaker 1: attitudes about regret ever conducted, and I asked people a 203 00:11:58,676 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: bunch of questions, including the question how often do you 204 00:12:02,596 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 1: look back on your life and wish you had done 205 00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: things differently? Now I agonize over the wording of that 206 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:13,116 Speaker 1: question because I wanted to describe regret without saying it. Yeah, 207 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: but I didn't want to use the R word because 208 00:12:15,716 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: there's such a stigma attached to the R word. And 209 00:12:17,876 --> 00:12:20,916 Speaker 1: what we found is that eighty two percent of the 210 00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:25,036 Speaker 1: US population did this thing at least occasionally. We have 211 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:28,756 Speaker 1: this performed idea that I have no regrets. I always 212 00:12:28,796 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: look forward, I never look backward. But the proceuge of 213 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 1: people who said they never do this was one percent. 214 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:40,996 Speaker 1: You know, in this culture, especially Western culture, where it's 215 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:44,356 Speaker 1: you know, it's all about positive emotions, all about positive feelings, Luke, 216 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:46,636 Speaker 1: with no regrets is the anthem that people are just 217 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 1: screaming from the rooftops. One thing that really landed with 218 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: me when reading your book, as you say, to live 219 00:12:53,076 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 1: is to accumulate at least some regret. It is almost 220 00:12:56,556 --> 00:12:59,276 Speaker 1: definitionally the case that if one has lived, they will 221 00:12:59,316 --> 00:13:02,596 Speaker 1: feel regret. And I think there's actually a common element 222 00:13:02,636 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: to that message. Yeah, I agree, I'll see that point 223 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:09,036 Speaker 1: and raise you and say that if you're feeling regrets 224 00:13:09,236 --> 00:13:11,516 Speaker 1: actually a good sign. It's like, oh, my cognitive machinery 225 00:13:11,596 --> 00:13:15,316 Speaker 1: is working. I am experiencing regret. If you don't experience 226 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:20,516 Speaker 1: a regret, truly, it's a sign of a potentially grave problem. 227 00:13:20,516 --> 00:13:23,236 Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting, Dan, because when we engage in 228 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: mental time travel and counterfactual thinking, we don't have to 229 00:13:27,356 --> 00:13:30,996 Speaker 1: imagine how things could have gone better, right. We could 230 00:13:31,036 --> 00:13:34,076 Speaker 1: instead imagine how things could have gone far worse. But 231 00:13:34,156 --> 00:13:37,316 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that we as humans have a very 232 00:13:37,396 --> 00:13:41,196 Speaker 1: strong bias towards the former, which helps explain why we 233 00:13:41,236 --> 00:13:44,196 Speaker 1: so often regret things. And you capture this point really 234 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 1: nicely when you talk about framing a thought in terms 235 00:13:47,436 --> 00:13:51,716 Speaker 1: of at least versus if only yes. So, when we 236 00:13:51,716 --> 00:13:54,836 Speaker 1: think about counterfactual thinking, there are two different varieties of it. 237 00:13:54,876 --> 00:13:58,276 Speaker 1: One is an upward counterfactual. So you imagine how things 238 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 1: could have been better if only I had become an 239 00:14:03,276 --> 00:14:06,676 Speaker 1: accountant rather than an engineer. Everything in my life would 240 00:14:06,716 --> 00:14:11,396 Speaker 1: be fantastic, Right, so you imagine a better scenario upward 241 00:14:11,476 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 1: kund of factuals if only make us feel worse, but 242 00:14:15,036 --> 00:14:17,756 Speaker 1: they can help us do better. But there's another kind 243 00:14:17,756 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 1: of counterfactual, a downward counterfactual, where you imagine how things 244 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: could have become worse, and so you say, oh, I 245 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 1: shouldn't have married Edward, but at least I have these 246 00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:33,836 Speaker 1: two great kids. You find the silver lining in that. 247 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 1: What that does is that minimizes the sting. It makes 248 00:14:36,556 --> 00:14:39,396 Speaker 1: you feel better, but it doesn't help you necessarily do better. 249 00:14:39,436 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 1: And I think what's curious is that we're much more 250 00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:46,236 Speaker 1: inclined to do the counterfactual thinking that makes us feel worse. 251 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:52,316 Speaker 1: Our brains are built for progress and efficiency, and they 252 00:14:52,396 --> 00:14:56,596 Speaker 1: know that those upward counterfactuals, those if only while they hurt, 253 00:14:57,196 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 1: they're going to make us better if we do it right. 254 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:03,996 Speaker 1: There's a really interesting study around Olympians and their response 255 00:15:04,036 --> 00:15:07,316 Speaker 1: to winning different types of metals that I think illustrates 256 00:15:07,316 --> 00:15:10,316 Speaker 1: this at least if only kind of thinking. Very well, 257 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:14,476 Speaker 1: do you mind sharing that study? This is a really 258 00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:19,036 Speaker 1: really interesting study of Olympic medalists. And what they did 259 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:24,236 Speaker 1: is they showed a group of participants photographs of medalists 260 00:15:24,396 --> 00:15:28,356 Speaker 1: on the Olympic platform, the gold medal winner, the silver 261 00:15:28,476 --> 00:15:33,036 Speaker 1: medal winner, the bronze medal winner, except they blocked out 262 00:15:33,116 --> 00:15:38,236 Speaker 1: the actual medals that these olympians won, and they had 263 00:15:38,276 --> 00:15:41,156 Speaker 1: these participants who didn't know what the researchers were studying 264 00:15:41,676 --> 00:15:46,476 Speaker 1: evaluate how happy the people looked, and they ranked the 265 00:15:46,476 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 1: olympians based on how happy they were. And so, as 266 00:15:49,596 --> 00:15:52,596 Speaker 1: we would expect, the person who won the gold medal 267 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: looked the happiest, which makes sense, right, But then there 268 00:15:56,436 --> 00:15:58,636 Speaker 1: was a bit of a surprise. The person who was 269 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:04,436 Speaker 1: the next happiest looking was the bronze medalist, and the 270 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 1: silver medalist often didn't look all that happy, which is weird, right. 271 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 1: You just want a silver medal in the Olympics. You 272 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:15,716 Speaker 1: should be pumped two And except they weren't. The bronze 273 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 1: medalists were beaming. The bronze medalists in some cases, we're 274 00:16:18,636 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: looking as happy as the gold medalist. And the way 275 00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:28,596 Speaker 1: we explain this riddle is through counterfactual thinking. The bronze 276 00:16:28,596 --> 00:16:33,236 Speaker 1: medalist is doing and at least a downward counterfactual. They're 277 00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:36,276 Speaker 1: imagining how things could have been worse. The bronze medals 278 00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: is saying iron and bronze medal, which is great because 279 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:42,356 Speaker 1: at least it wasn't like that. Shmow finished fourth who's 280 00:16:42,396 --> 00:16:45,876 Speaker 1: going home with no hardware but the silver medals is saying, 281 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:50,316 Speaker 1: if only I had they're a swimmer reached for the 282 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,876 Speaker 1: wall a little bit earlier. If only I had kicked 283 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:57,756 Speaker 1: a little harder, I would be wearing that gold medal 284 00:16:57,796 --> 00:17:02,236 Speaker 1: instead of this crappy silver medal. Yeah. You know, naturally, 285 00:17:02,756 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 1: regret gets a really bad rap, right, because as you've 286 00:17:05,316 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: just described with that swimmer, and it's just such an 287 00:17:07,596 --> 00:17:10,476 Speaker 1: unpleasant feeling that you make the case stand and I 288 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:13,396 Speaker 1: think a very convincing case that we should see regret 289 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:16,596 Speaker 1: as something we should embrace and learn from. And so, 290 00:17:16,876 --> 00:17:19,156 Speaker 1: what are some of the positive effects that you feel 291 00:17:19,356 --> 00:17:21,436 Speaker 1: regret can have when we engage with it in the 292 00:17:21,516 --> 00:17:23,756 Speaker 1: right way. Yeah, And the key is that we have 293 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:25,636 Speaker 1: to engage with it in the right way. I think 294 00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 1: too often we're kind of conditioned to ignore regrets. Oh 295 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:30,796 Speaker 1: it's negative, don't even think about it. Just move on, 296 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:33,516 Speaker 1: look forward, don't look back. That's a bad idea. But 297 00:17:33,596 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 1: sometimes I think if we're not equipped to deal with 298 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:40,196 Speaker 1: it properly, we get captured by our regrets. We wallow 299 00:17:40,236 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: on them, we ruminate on them. Yeah, what we should 300 00:17:42,996 --> 00:17:47,396 Speaker 1: be doing is listening to our regrets, confronting them, using 301 00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 1: them as signals, as data, as information. And when we 302 00:17:50,116 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 1: do that, there are many many benefits. For instance, there's 303 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 1: research and social psychologies showing that it can help make 304 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: us better negotiators. You do a negotiation, you think about 305 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 1: what you regret in that negotiation, you often do better 306 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:03,236 Speaker 1: in the next one. It can help us become better 307 00:18:03,276 --> 00:18:07,156 Speaker 1: problem solvers, better strategists. There's even evidence that it can 308 00:18:07,196 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 1: actually help us deepen sense of meaning in our lives. 309 00:18:10,876 --> 00:18:14,756 Speaker 1: And so when we treat this emotion properly, and that's 310 00:18:14,756 --> 00:18:17,676 Speaker 1: a big if we can use it as an engine 311 00:18:17,716 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 1: for moving forward. Yeah, regrets really serving as a catalyst 312 00:18:20,836 --> 00:18:24,996 Speaker 1: here right, for actually driving meaningful action. Sure, And I 313 00:18:25,036 --> 00:18:27,596 Speaker 1: think I think what's I think what's puzzling here is 314 00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: to people is that, you know, a solution in some 315 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 1: cases is to invite this negative emotion, not to bat 316 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:38,116 Speaker 1: it away, not to ignore it, but in some sense 317 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:41,796 Speaker 1: to invite it. And that seems a little counterintuitive because 318 00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:46,396 Speaker 1: you're inviting something that feels bad. And the thing about 319 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:51,276 Speaker 1: regret is that regret can clarify what we value and 320 00:18:51,396 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: instruct us on how to do better. And people like that, 321 00:18:55,276 --> 00:18:58,516 Speaker 1: but it comes with discomfort. It comes with some amount 322 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:02,196 Speaker 1: of pain and people don't like that, but that's not 323 00:19:02,236 --> 00:19:04,916 Speaker 1: the deal. It's a package deal. You've got to have both. 324 00:19:05,436 --> 00:19:08,516 Speaker 1: And arguably I think that pain and discomfort is the 325 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 1: source of the clarification and the instruction. Yeah, it's signaling 326 00:19:12,596 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 1: to your brain that you've acted in a way that 327 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:18,756 Speaker 1: might conflict with value exact for example. Yep. There's also 328 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 1: research you talk about in your book that when we 329 00:19:21,316 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: engage with regret in a meaningful, constructive way, it can 330 00:19:24,636 --> 00:19:27,396 Speaker 1: also increase our performance. Do you mind talking about some 331 00:19:27,436 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 1: of the studies in this area, sure. I mean there's 332 00:19:30,036 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 1: a lot of research in experimental psychology where you give 333 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:37,716 Speaker 1: people puzzles, especially anagrams, and what it shows in general 334 00:19:37,836 --> 00:19:40,396 Speaker 1: is that you put people into a problem solving situation, 335 00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 1: they solve the problem, and then you ask them to 336 00:19:43,276 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 1: reflect on what they regret doing or not doing in 337 00:19:46,036 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 1: that problem solving exercise. Again, you're inviting this negative emotion. 338 00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:54,236 Speaker 1: They often do better in the next round because they've 339 00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 1: felt bad. That bad feeling is a signal to the 340 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:59,316 Speaker 1: brain saying huh, maybe I should do things differently. It's 341 00:19:59,316 --> 00:20:03,276 Speaker 1: a form of instruction, and so if you think about 342 00:20:03,276 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 1: those puzzle solvers if they actually subscribe to the no 343 00:20:06,796 --> 00:20:11,156 Speaker 1: regrets philosophy. They said, I screwed up this anagram. I 344 00:20:11,196 --> 00:20:13,036 Speaker 1: did it slowly, I didn't get the right answer. But 345 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:18,076 Speaker 1: no regrets. I'm always positive, I never look backward. They're 346 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:20,396 Speaker 1: not going to get any better at performance on a 347 00:20:20,436 --> 00:20:25,156 Speaker 1: whole array of problem solving skills. And how can regret 348 00:20:25,476 --> 00:20:28,396 Speaker 1: deep in our sense of meaning? Well, I mean what 349 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:31,236 Speaker 1: it does in many cases that when we think about counterfactually, 350 00:20:32,076 --> 00:20:34,676 Speaker 1: at some level, we sometimes will appreciate what we have, 351 00:20:34,716 --> 00:20:36,716 Speaker 1: which deepens our sense of meaning. But it can also 352 00:20:36,756 --> 00:20:40,716 Speaker 1: help clarify what we actually value in our lives. So 353 00:20:40,756 --> 00:20:45,596 Speaker 1: there's one person I wrote about who regretted not spending 354 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:48,596 Speaker 1: time with her grandparents. Every winter of the grandparents would 355 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:50,556 Speaker 1: come and visit her, and she hated it. As a kid, 356 00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:52,956 Speaker 1: she thought they were intruding, she didn't want to talk 357 00:20:52,996 --> 00:20:56,236 Speaker 1: to them, she would standoffish, And when her grandparents passed away, 358 00:20:56,476 --> 00:20:59,916 Speaker 1: she regretted it because she missed hearing their stories and 359 00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:03,916 Speaker 1: hearing what their lives were about. And it actually prompted 360 00:21:03,996 --> 00:21:08,196 Speaker 1: her to collect her own parents' stories because that feeling 361 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:12,036 Speaker 1: of regret spurred at least a quest for meaning and 362 00:21:12,196 --> 00:21:16,076 Speaker 1: understanding of her own life and her own story. I 363 00:21:16,156 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: want to dig in a bit to this notion of 364 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:21,676 Speaker 1: doing regret right, because I think this is so important. 365 00:21:22,436 --> 00:21:25,196 Speaker 1: We want to make sure that we are not ignoring 366 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:28,196 Speaker 1: the negative feeling, ignoring the regret. We also want to 367 00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: make sure that we're not marinating in it, We're not 368 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:33,916 Speaker 1: ruminating in this unproductive way. But just as importantly, we 369 00:21:33,996 --> 00:21:37,236 Speaker 1: need to draw the right conclusion from the regret. And 370 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:41,676 Speaker 1: we shouldn't code or regret as something that reflects this 371 00:21:42,036 --> 00:21:46,836 Speaker 1: deep underlying flaw in our character and our personality. Instead, 372 00:21:47,316 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 1: we should evaluate that behavior in isolation. Right. It's just 373 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:53,716 Speaker 1: a reflection of a behavior in a particular moment of time, 374 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't overgeneralize, which we as humans so often do, 375 00:21:57,476 --> 00:22:00,996 Speaker 1: especially again hypercritical people. Oh my god, this must mean 376 00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 1: that I am a bad person. This must mean that 377 00:22:03,756 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 1: I'm a terrible decision maker, or what have you. That 378 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 1: is one of the secret to process and regret effectively. 379 00:22:11,676 --> 00:22:13,676 Speaker 1: But I also think it's one of the secrets to 380 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:18,796 Speaker 1: leading a life where you're not torturing yourself. We say 381 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:21,596 Speaker 1: that if I made a mistake, I'm a bad person, 382 00:22:22,116 --> 00:22:24,236 Speaker 1: rather than I did a stupid thing, and you're always 383 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:27,636 Speaker 1: better off evaluating the behavior rather than making some kind 384 00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:31,916 Speaker 1: of broader assessment of the person. So there's a temporal 385 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:34,876 Speaker 1: aspect of it as well. You have to understand that 386 00:22:35,276 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 1: any mistake that you make, any screw up, any regret, 387 00:22:39,196 --> 00:22:43,236 Speaker 1: any blunder, is a moment in your life, not the 388 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:47,156 Speaker 1: full measure of your life. We're willing to make universal 389 00:22:47,236 --> 00:22:50,756 Speaker 1: attributions about our entire lives based on a moment, always 390 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:54,916 Speaker 1: a negative moment, and essentially neglect the other ninety nine 391 00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:59,716 Speaker 1: of our lives and our evaluation. Don't do that. That's 392 00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 1: a recipe for that's a recipe for unhappiness. And you know, 393 00:23:03,796 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: when you explain this to people, they get it, and 394 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:08,676 Speaker 1: if you coach them, they can stop doing that. The 395 00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:11,436 Speaker 1: problem is is that, I think it's a bigger problem 396 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 1: is that I don't think we've done a very good 397 00:23:12,956 --> 00:23:16,436 Speaker 1: job equipping people with how to deal with negative emotions. 398 00:23:16,756 --> 00:23:18,556 Speaker 1: I think at some level we've sold them a bill 399 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:21,076 Speaker 1: of goods about the need to be positive all the time, 400 00:23:21,356 --> 00:23:23,276 Speaker 1: and what we should be doing is saying, yeah, have 401 00:23:23,476 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 1: lots of positive emotions. Positive emotions are great. They make 402 00:23:26,716 --> 00:23:29,596 Speaker 1: life fantastic. But you're going to have some negative emotions. 403 00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 1: And these negative emotions are adaptive. They're functional if you 404 00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:35,676 Speaker 1: know how to treat them. When we're back from the break, 405 00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:38,756 Speaker 1: Dan teaches us how we should treat our regrets and 406 00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 1: why regrets about long lost romances and miss job opportunities 407 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:46,596 Speaker 1: are far more similar than we might think. And I 408 00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:49,116 Speaker 1: come in with some hot takes about whether we're maybe 409 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 1: putting too much weight on our deathbed regrets. We'll be 410 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 1: back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 411 00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:06,396 Speaker 1: As Dan Pink was researching regret, he first wanted to 412 00:24:06,476 --> 00:24:09,956 Speaker 1: learn what people tend to regret. He launched the World 413 00:24:10,036 --> 00:24:13,476 Speaker 1: Regret Survey and collected tens of thousands of regrets from 414 00:24:13,516 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 1: people all over the world. Researchers have previously sorted regret 415 00:24:18,036 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: into specific life categories, like romance regrets or education regrets, 416 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:25,996 Speaker 1: but when Dan analyzed the results of his survey, he 417 00:24:26,196 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 1: realized these categories weren't telling the full story. What I 418 00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:33,876 Speaker 1: found is that when you listen to what people are saying, 419 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:37,516 Speaker 1: what matters is not the domain of life. It's something 420 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:40,596 Speaker 1: else going on just beneath the surface. And the easiest 421 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:44,316 Speaker 1: way to make that clear is With an example, I 422 00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:47,036 Speaker 1: was shocked by how many people who went to college, 423 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 1: especially in America, regret not studying abroad. It blew my mind. 424 00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:54,236 Speaker 1: And the reason they didn't study abroad is that, oh, 425 00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's kind of risky. I'm not sure 426 00:24:56,076 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 1: I want to do that. And I was surprised by 427 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: how salient that regret was. And then there were lots 428 00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:02,916 Speaker 1: of people all over the world who had a regret 429 00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:06,796 Speaker 1: that basically went like this, X years ago. There was 430 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 1: someone who I really liked wanted to ask them out 431 00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:12,156 Speaker 1: on a date, but I was too chicken to do that, 432 00:25:12,276 --> 00:25:15,436 Speaker 1: and I've regretted it ever since. Okay, that's a romance regret. 433 00:25:15,516 --> 00:25:17,596 Speaker 1: We've got an education regret. We've got a romance regret. 434 00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:19,876 Speaker 1: Then I have lots of people all over the place 435 00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:23,196 Speaker 1: who say, ah, I always wanted to start a business 436 00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: rather than staying in this dead end job, but I 437 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:27,076 Speaker 1: didn't have the guts to do that, and now I 438 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:29,956 Speaker 1: regret it. That's a career regret. But to my mind, 439 00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: those are all the same regret. They're in different domains 440 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:34,996 Speaker 1: of life, but they share a common root. And if 441 00:25:35,036 --> 00:25:36,956 Speaker 1: the common root is this, you're at a juncture in 442 00:25:37,036 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 1: your life. You can play it safe or you can 443 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:44,116 Speaker 1: take the chance. And most people regret not taking the chance. 444 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:46,036 Speaker 1: Not all the time. There are people who take the 445 00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:48,156 Speaker 1: who took the chance and regret it because things went 446 00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 1: south on them. But for every one of those, there 447 00:25:50,196 --> 00:25:53,476 Speaker 1: are dozens and dozens and dozens who have the opposite regrets. 448 00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:56,436 Speaker 1: So that's one of the four core regrets. Boldness regrets 449 00:25:56,556 --> 00:25:58,956 Speaker 1: if only I'd taken the chance, And let's stick into 450 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:02,156 Speaker 1: boldness of it, because this one's really interesting. You talk 451 00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:04,516 Speaker 1: about the fact that when we're in our twenties right, 452 00:26:05,076 --> 00:26:07,316 Speaker 1: what we would call in action regrets, so things that 453 00:26:07,396 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 1: we didn't do an action regretting things we did do 454 00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:14,556 Speaker 1: are roughly the same in number, but by the time 455 00:26:14,596 --> 00:26:18,236 Speaker 1: we hit fifty, in action regrets are twice as likely 456 00:26:18,396 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: to be felt than before. And help me understand why 457 00:26:21,716 --> 00:26:25,836 Speaker 1: it is that as we age, we increase the ratio 458 00:26:26,156 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 1: of the things we regret not having done then the 459 00:26:28,396 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 1: things we have done. I think it's an interesting question. 460 00:26:31,236 --> 00:26:33,396 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we know the full answer to that, 461 00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:36,036 Speaker 1: but I think that we can speculate certain kinds of 462 00:26:36,236 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 1: action regrets. We can find the silver lining in. We 463 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,916 Speaker 1: can do it. At least we can say, oh, I 464 00:26:43,956 --> 00:26:48,516 Speaker 1: shouldn't have moved to Houston, but at least there is 465 00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:52,076 Speaker 1: in a state and come technics okay, So you can 466 00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 1: find the silver lining in that. The other thing is 467 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:58,596 Speaker 1: that certain kinds of action regrets we can undo. If 468 00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 1: we fullied somebody, maybe we can make amends and make 469 00:27:00,756 --> 00:27:03,076 Speaker 1: an apology. If we've stolen from somebody, maybe we can 470 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 1: make restitution. I have one guy who I wrote about 471 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:10,156 Speaker 1: who got a tattoo that said no regrets, decided that 472 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:13,276 Speaker 1: he didn't like it and decided to have his tattoo removed. 473 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: And so we can remove our tattoos. So with action regrets, 474 00:27:16,756 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 1: we can we can make peace with them at some level. 475 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:21,596 Speaker 1: We can at least them, we can undo them. In 476 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: action regrets, you can't do that. You typically can't find 477 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 1: it at least and there's nothing to undo. Could you 478 00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:30,476 Speaker 1: haven't done anything? So I think that's a big part 479 00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:33,996 Speaker 1: of it. You know, in the research on aging, like 480 00:27:34,156 --> 00:27:37,436 Speaker 1: Laura Carsonson's work, for example, she finds that as we 481 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:40,796 Speaker 1: get older, we tend to have fewer anxieties because there's 482 00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 1: just less future to be anxious about. And I do 483 00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:46,476 Speaker 1: wonder if there's a parallel here, which is, as we 484 00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:50,476 Speaker 1: get older, you know, the range of opportunity that lies 485 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:55,356 Speaker 1: ahead for us that we could potentially explore diminishes pretty considerably, 486 00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 1: and so that might make us lust after past moments 487 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:01,636 Speaker 1: when we actually did have opportunity but didn't take advantage 488 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:04,356 Speaker 1: of it. I think that's very plausible. I think that 489 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:06,596 Speaker 1: we do have a sense that many of us, not 490 00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:07,996 Speaker 1: all of us, have a sense that when we're young, 491 00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:12,796 Speaker 1: there are boundless opportunities, and then at some point, relatively 492 00:28:12,836 --> 00:28:18,956 Speaker 1: early in our lives, we get a bracing reality check. Okay, 493 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:21,236 Speaker 1: so we've talked about boldness regrets. Do you mind talking 494 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:25,836 Speaker 1: about the three other categories? Sure? So one category is 495 00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:29,356 Speaker 1: what I call foundation regrets. These are regrets that people 496 00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:33,676 Speaker 1: have where they made small decisions or small mistakes early 497 00:28:33,796 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: in life, no single one of which is consequential, but 498 00:28:37,876 --> 00:28:41,116 Speaker 1: that accumulate into nasty consequences. So a very common one 499 00:28:41,236 --> 00:28:43,796 Speaker 1: would be I spent too much and save too little, 500 00:28:43,836 --> 00:28:45,676 Speaker 1: and now I'm broke. Now I have no money. And 501 00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:47,756 Speaker 1: the same thing was true with health. You know, I 502 00:28:47,836 --> 00:28:50,516 Speaker 1: didn't exercise, I didn't eat right, and it's not like 503 00:28:50,956 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 1: for one day I did that. For years and now 504 00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:56,836 Speaker 1: I am in ill health or woefully out of shape. 505 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:59,276 Speaker 1: So foundation regrets are if only I'd done the work. 506 00:28:59,716 --> 00:29:03,356 Speaker 1: Moral regrets are if only I'd done the right thing. 507 00:29:03,916 --> 00:29:05,716 Speaker 1: So you're at a juncture in your life. You can 508 00:29:05,796 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: take the high road, you can take the low road. 509 00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:10,996 Speaker 1: And when people take the low road, not everybody, but 510 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 1: most of everybody regrets it because I think most of 511 00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 1: us are good and want to be good. And in 512 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:20,236 Speaker 1: that category, we had a lot of regrets about marital infidelity, 513 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 1: a lot of a huge number of regrets about bullying. 514 00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe how many regrets we had about bullying. 515 00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:29,556 Speaker 1: Morality ends up being a little bit more complicated because 516 00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:33,436 Speaker 1: people have different moral taste buds. And then finally, our 517 00:29:33,556 --> 00:29:37,356 Speaker 1: connection regrets. These are regrets about relationships, and not only 518 00:29:37,476 --> 00:29:40,116 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, but all the relationships in our lives. And 519 00:29:40,436 --> 00:29:43,436 Speaker 1: what often happens is that these relationships that were intact 520 00:29:43,996 --> 00:29:48,076 Speaker 1: come apart. And what I found is that many of 521 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:52,876 Speaker 1: these relationships come apart in very uncinematic ways. They just 522 00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 1: drift apart. And what happens is that one person wants 523 00:29:55,596 --> 00:29:57,996 Speaker 1: to reach out. They say, oh, man, I was such 524 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:00,036 Speaker 1: good friends with Maya ten years ago, I really should 525 00:30:00,036 --> 00:30:01,716 Speaker 1: reach out and say hi to her, and then we say, 526 00:30:01,756 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 1: oh man, no, no, no, it's been ten years. That's 527 00:30:04,556 --> 00:30:07,436 Speaker 1: going to be so awkward. And besides they don't want 528 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:09,836 Speaker 1: to hear to me, so and besides Mina doesn't want 529 00:30:09,836 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 1: to hear from me. She doesn't care. And then we 530 00:30:12,036 --> 00:30:14,956 Speaker 1: waited another few years, and then it's like, okay, and 531 00:30:15,076 --> 00:30:17,476 Speaker 1: now it's thirteen years. Oh man, it's even more awkward 532 00:30:17,516 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 1: to reach out. That ends up being a colossal mistake 533 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 1: on both fronts, because it's when we do reach out, 534 00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:25,476 Speaker 1: it's way less awkward than we think, and the other 535 00:30:25,516 --> 00:30:28,476 Speaker 1: side almost always cares. I like that there's a signaling here, 536 00:30:28,676 --> 00:30:31,516 Speaker 1: which is, you know, these categories that you've talked about, 537 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,836 Speaker 1: because we tend to regret them. What that teaches us 538 00:30:34,956 --> 00:30:36,636 Speaker 1: is that those are the things we care most about 539 00:30:36,676 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 1: in life. Yeah. I mean, I think that for me, 540 00:30:39,116 --> 00:30:43,156 Speaker 1: a personal pultle I was trying to resolve, was, you know, 541 00:30:43,436 --> 00:30:45,876 Speaker 1: reading through all these regrets every day here in my office, 542 00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,596 Speaker 1: why was I not more bummed out? I got these 543 00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:51,076 Speaker 1: people opening up their hearts and telling me the mistakes 544 00:30:51,076 --> 00:30:52,836 Speaker 1: that they made and how terrible they feel about it. 545 00:30:53,356 --> 00:30:56,676 Speaker 1: Why did they not bring me down? And I finally, 546 00:30:56,876 --> 00:31:00,596 Speaker 1: over time realized that when people tell you what they 547 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:02,716 Speaker 1: regret the most, they're telling you what they value the most. 548 00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:05,956 Speaker 1: So it is, as you say, this very powerful signal. 549 00:31:06,196 --> 00:31:08,676 Speaker 1: If you think about all the decisions that any of 550 00:31:08,756 --> 00:31:12,556 Speaker 1: us may today or yesterday, or this week or last week. 551 00:31:12,916 --> 00:31:15,436 Speaker 1: I don't remember half of I don't remember most of them. 552 00:31:16,396 --> 00:31:19,956 Speaker 1: But if you remember a decision or an indecision from 553 00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:22,836 Speaker 1: a year ago, or five years ago or ten years ago, 554 00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:26,596 Speaker 1: and it bugs you still, you got to pay attention 555 00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:29,716 Speaker 1: to that. Man, that's a very strong signal. That is 556 00:31:29,716 --> 00:31:33,916 Speaker 1: an airhorn screaming in your psyche telling you pay attention 557 00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 1: to me. It's telling me something, and it's what's telling 558 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:38,756 Speaker 1: us is this is a signal about what you value, 559 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:41,436 Speaker 1: and it's a signal about how to do better in 560 00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:44,956 Speaker 1: the future. So let's see, Dan, I'm listening to this 561 00:31:45,396 --> 00:31:49,116 Speaker 1: episode and I'm thinking to myself, Okay, Dan's convinced me 562 00:31:49,876 --> 00:31:53,436 Speaker 1: I need to engage with my regret more proactively and 563 00:31:53,556 --> 00:31:57,356 Speaker 1: also in this productive way. What are some strategies that 564 00:31:57,476 --> 00:32:00,596 Speaker 1: you could give me the listener for taking a regret 565 00:32:00,636 --> 00:32:03,756 Speaker 1: and actually turning it into something productive. When you have 566 00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:07,716 Speaker 1: he agreat treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. Recognize 567 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:10,796 Speaker 1: that your regrets are part of the human condition. That's 568 00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:13,316 Speaker 1: a big part of it too. We have this kind 569 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:15,356 Speaker 1: of pluralistic ignorance where we think, oh my god, I'm 570 00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:17,476 Speaker 1: the only person who regrets bullying. I'm the only person 571 00:32:17,516 --> 00:32:21,916 Speaker 1: who regrets being too timid in my choices, when in fact, 572 00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:24,596 Speaker 1: I got a database of nearly twenty two thousand people 573 00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:27,596 Speaker 1: with your exact same regret. Another thing that we should do. 574 00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:29,956 Speaker 1: I think there's a very strong argument to make for 575 00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 1: disclosing our regrets, even if it's only in private writing. 576 00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:36,556 Speaker 1: I actually think the power of disclosure, even if we 577 00:32:36,596 --> 00:32:40,636 Speaker 1: don't disclose it publicly is a conversion process, is in 578 00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:44,796 Speaker 1: some ways a transmutation process, because emotions, by their nature 579 00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:48,916 Speaker 1: are blobby, their abstractions, and that's what makes positive emotions 580 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:51,996 Speaker 1: feel good, but it's also what makes negative emotions feel bad. 581 00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 1: And when we write about our negative emotions, talk about 582 00:32:54,316 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 1: our negative emotions, we convert these abstractions into concrete words, 583 00:32:58,676 --> 00:33:00,996 Speaker 1: and those are just less menacing, and they can begin 584 00:33:01,156 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 1: the sense making process and then we move forward. It's 585 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:06,476 Speaker 1: very important to draw a lesson to extract a lesson 586 00:33:06,516 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 1: from our scroups from our regrets, the chat ledge is 587 00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:12,516 Speaker 1: that we're terrible at solving our own problems. We're too 588 00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:15,036 Speaker 1: caught up in the details. And I actually like the 589 00:33:15,156 --> 00:33:19,636 Speaker 1: technique of using our crazily amazing brain's ability for time 590 00:33:19,676 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 1: travel is essentially having a consultation with the U of 591 00:33:23,596 --> 00:33:26,516 Speaker 1: ten years from now and asking the U of ten 592 00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 1: years from now what you should do, Because I think 593 00:33:29,116 --> 00:33:31,036 Speaker 1: we can make a pretty safe bet what the U 594 00:33:31,116 --> 00:33:32,556 Speaker 1: of ten years and now is going to care about? 595 00:33:33,156 --> 00:33:35,236 Speaker 1: I want to Okay, So I think I have a 596 00:33:35,356 --> 00:33:40,036 Speaker 1: broader question, just generally about regret, which is why it 597 00:33:40,196 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: is we put so much weight on regrets that we 598 00:33:43,236 --> 00:33:46,796 Speaker 1: may feel later in life. So there's this proverbial deathbed regret, 599 00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:50,756 Speaker 1: and people often say, well, you know, Dan, when you're 600 00:33:50,756 --> 00:33:53,196 Speaker 1: on your deathbed, are you really going to regret A? 601 00:33:53,516 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 1: Aren't you going to regret B? Instead? And that calculus 602 00:33:57,756 --> 00:34:01,476 Speaker 1: can really influence our present day decisions. And I want 603 00:34:01,516 --> 00:34:04,636 Speaker 1: to challenge this thinking a bit because it seems to 604 00:34:04,716 --> 00:34:08,436 Speaker 1: be grounded in the idea that the values we express 605 00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:11,316 Speaker 1: at the end of our lives somehow represent a truer 606 00:34:11,956 --> 00:34:15,916 Speaker 1: or more accurate expression of either what we care about 607 00:34:15,996 --> 00:34:18,156 Speaker 1: or what we ought to care about. Right, it's prescriptive, 608 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:22,316 Speaker 1: and this way of thinking implies that there is just 609 00:34:22,636 --> 00:34:26,196 Speaker 1: one constant, true set of things that we ought to 610 00:34:26,236 --> 00:34:28,636 Speaker 1: care about. And another way to think about it, at 611 00:34:28,676 --> 00:34:32,636 Speaker 1: different framing is that we are people whose values naturally 612 00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:35,956 Speaker 1: change and evolve over time. And if you take that view, 613 00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:39,356 Speaker 1: then there's no obvious reason why we should privilege the 614 00:34:39,556 --> 00:34:43,676 Speaker 1: values of future Maya over present day Maya. Absolutely, and 615 00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:46,716 Speaker 1: so this is one reason why there's a reason that 616 00:34:46,756 --> 00:34:49,436 Speaker 1: I say ten years and not deathbed I am very 617 00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:54,316 Speaker 1: skeptical of deathbed regrets. I'm skeptical of the accuracy of 618 00:34:54,356 --> 00:34:57,556 Speaker 1: the reporting of them, because it's purely anecdotal. The numbers 619 00:34:57,556 --> 00:34:59,556 Speaker 1: are not very vast. And also I don't think that 620 00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:01,876 Speaker 1: what we're thinking in a moment of fog when we're 621 00:35:01,876 --> 00:35:04,876 Speaker 1: about to perish from the earth is necessarily the clearest 622 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:08,276 Speaker 1: and highest expression of what we value. Exactly as you say, well, look, 623 00:35:08,276 --> 00:35:11,156 Speaker 1: I'm already super happy if we're just constraining the time 624 00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:13,716 Speaker 1: frame with which we view the future. So I'm on 625 00:35:13,876 --> 00:35:16,236 Speaker 1: board with the like ten years from now, Maya. The 626 00:35:16,356 --> 00:35:18,836 Speaker 1: deathbed stuff just drives me nuts, because, like you said, 627 00:35:19,116 --> 00:35:21,236 Speaker 1: in our final moments, there's a lot of factors that 628 00:35:21,276 --> 00:35:24,156 Speaker 1: are weighing into what we say we regret, what we 629 00:35:24,316 --> 00:35:26,516 Speaker 1: think we should be saying about what we regret in 630 00:35:26,636 --> 00:35:28,956 Speaker 1: order to maybe pass by people who live on planet Earth. 631 00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:31,076 Speaker 1: I don't know, there's just lots of things. That's a 632 00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:33,116 Speaker 1: very good point. That's one that I hadn't thought about, 633 00:35:33,236 --> 00:35:35,436 Speaker 1: is that there could be a kind of performative side 634 00:35:35,476 --> 00:35:37,956 Speaker 1: of it. There could be a kind of oh my god, 635 00:35:38,356 --> 00:35:40,556 Speaker 1: I gotta get you know, I gotta get my last 636 00:35:40,676 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 1: argument in here before the final decider decides whether I 637 00:35:43,596 --> 00:35:45,436 Speaker 1: go up or down, if you have kind of apologize 638 00:35:45,516 --> 00:35:48,676 Speaker 1: or make right with so and so. But I just 639 00:35:48,756 --> 00:35:51,476 Speaker 1: think it's important in general, as much as we can 640 00:35:51,596 --> 00:35:55,356 Speaker 1: value regret, to remember it is also just a feeling. 641 00:35:55,756 --> 00:35:58,956 Speaker 1: Regret is a feeling that can be transient and can pass, 642 00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:03,556 Speaker 1: and it's not always something we I say this only Dan, 643 00:36:03,636 --> 00:36:06,356 Speaker 1: because regret often gets this trump card. It's like we're 644 00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:08,636 Speaker 1: making a decision. We're trying to weigh costs and benefits. 645 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:10,716 Speaker 1: I don't really want a kid right now, but I 646 00:36:10,796 --> 00:36:13,156 Speaker 1: think I might regret not having a kid later in 647 00:36:13,276 --> 00:36:15,676 Speaker 1: the minute. Our society. Here's the word regret. It's like, 648 00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:17,876 Speaker 1: oh my god, then go do the thing right. And 649 00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:19,436 Speaker 1: so I just want to make sure we're not elevating 650 00:36:19,476 --> 00:36:21,796 Speaker 1: it to too important a category, because, like a lot 651 00:36:21,836 --> 00:36:25,836 Speaker 1: of other negative emotions, it is just a feeling. I 652 00:36:25,916 --> 00:36:28,996 Speaker 1: think that's a fair point. And the other thing empirically 653 00:36:29,116 --> 00:36:31,076 Speaker 1: is that there's a decent amount of evidence showing that 654 00:36:31,236 --> 00:36:36,396 Speaker 1: if we over index on our anticipated regret, we end 655 00:36:36,476 --> 00:36:41,236 Speaker 1: up making suboptimal decisions. We can end up making decisions 656 00:36:41,396 --> 00:36:45,356 Speaker 1: that actually are a little bit more risk averse, because, 657 00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:49,636 Speaker 1: as Dan Gilbert says, we end up buying emotional insurance 658 00:36:49,716 --> 00:36:53,596 Speaker 1: we don't need and so and so and so. Anticipating 659 00:36:53,676 --> 00:36:56,316 Speaker 1: regret is not a perfect decision making tool. This is 660 00:36:56,356 --> 00:36:57,876 Speaker 1: why I think there's some nuance in it. I think 661 00:36:57,916 --> 00:37:02,196 Speaker 1: one should anticipate what I think most people will regret 662 00:37:02,476 --> 00:37:05,916 Speaker 1: in the future, but actually chill out on most stuff, 663 00:37:06,716 --> 00:37:11,796 Speaker 1: and also recognize that some regrets are ephemeral. I'd love 664 00:37:11,876 --> 00:37:15,076 Speaker 1: to end on a personal note. Dan, I'm wondering, you 665 00:37:15,156 --> 00:37:17,636 Speaker 1: know you've been in the world of regret for I 666 00:37:17,756 --> 00:37:20,956 Speaker 1: imagine several years now, right researching for this book, writing 667 00:37:20,996 --> 00:37:26,076 Speaker 1: this book. What is something that you had long regreted, 668 00:37:26,476 --> 00:37:29,556 Speaker 1: or you do still regret, but that you now see 669 00:37:29,756 --> 00:37:35,236 Speaker 1: through a different lens. I felt pretty bad about certain 670 00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:38,596 Speaker 1: regrets that I had with regard to kindness, and I 671 00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 1: never talked about them, but I had them. I harbored 672 00:37:41,156 --> 00:37:44,076 Speaker 1: these regrets about kindness. Now it's a moral regret, although 673 00:37:44,156 --> 00:37:46,516 Speaker 1: it's a peculiar kind of moral regret, because my moral 674 00:37:46,596 --> 00:37:49,676 Speaker 1: regrets about kindness where regrets of inaction, not action. So 675 00:37:49,756 --> 00:37:52,316 Speaker 1: they're not regrets about bullying people, but they're regrets about 676 00:37:52,356 --> 00:37:54,756 Speaker 1: being in situations where people were not being treated well, 677 00:37:55,156 --> 00:37:57,356 Speaker 1: where people were being left out or being made fun 678 00:37:57,436 --> 00:38:01,316 Speaker 1: of or being excluded. And I didn't participate in that, 679 00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:04,516 Speaker 1: but I saw it and I knew it was wrong, 680 00:38:04,996 --> 00:38:06,996 Speaker 1: and I didn't do anything. And I have to say 681 00:38:07,316 --> 00:38:10,676 Speaker 1: that has bugged me so much for so long, to 682 00:38:10,836 --> 00:38:14,156 Speaker 1: the point where I kind of sublimated it. I said, Okay, 683 00:38:14,156 --> 00:38:15,916 Speaker 1: I don't want to deal with this. And one of 684 00:38:15,916 --> 00:38:18,236 Speaker 1: the things about reading through all these regrets is that 685 00:38:18,676 --> 00:38:21,276 Speaker 1: I started seeing that regret among other people, and I've 686 00:38:21,316 --> 00:38:23,236 Speaker 1: started in a weird way that made me feel better. 687 00:38:23,276 --> 00:38:24,636 Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, I'm not the only person 688 00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:27,076 Speaker 1: who did this, and the other thing that it did 689 00:38:27,156 --> 00:38:29,156 Speaker 1: is that if you listen to that, Okay, so this 690 00:38:29,236 --> 00:38:31,396 Speaker 1: is a good example of how you process or regret. 691 00:38:31,636 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 1: So I could feel that that kindness regret and I 692 00:38:35,516 --> 00:38:38,436 Speaker 1: could say, no regrets. It's in the past. I'm going 693 00:38:38,476 --> 00:38:41,036 Speaker 1: to look forward. I don't want to be negative. That's 694 00:38:41,036 --> 00:38:44,036 Speaker 1: a bad idea. I could also say, oh my God, 695 00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:46,756 Speaker 1: earlier in my life I wasn't as kind as I 696 00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:52,716 Speaker 1: could be. I am just an wretched, awful, worthless individual. 697 00:38:52,876 --> 00:38:55,156 Speaker 1: I am this the worst. That's a bad idea too. 698 00:38:55,676 --> 00:38:57,676 Speaker 1: What I could what I could do instead is like, wow, 699 00:38:58,676 --> 00:39:01,116 Speaker 1: twenty five years later, this is bugging me. This is 700 00:39:01,196 --> 00:39:03,516 Speaker 1: something I need to pay attention to. And what it's 701 00:39:03,556 --> 00:39:05,836 Speaker 1: teaching me is it's clarifying what I value in ways 702 00:39:05,876 --> 00:39:08,876 Speaker 1: that I didn't realize. I guess I value kindness more 703 00:39:08,876 --> 00:39:11,036 Speaker 1: than I expected. And it's instructing me on how to 704 00:39:11,116 --> 00:39:13,476 Speaker 1: do better so that when you know, I try as 705 00:39:13,596 --> 00:39:16,476 Speaker 1: much as I can when people are being excluded in 706 00:39:16,556 --> 00:39:20,396 Speaker 1: way smaller large to say something, to do something to 707 00:39:20,516 --> 00:39:22,876 Speaker 1: pull people in. I'm not saying I'm perfect in doing that, 708 00:39:23,476 --> 00:39:27,316 Speaker 1: but that spear of regret is prompting me to do 709 00:39:27,476 --> 00:39:30,356 Speaker 1: better in the future because I don't want to feel 710 00:39:30,436 --> 00:39:34,556 Speaker 1: that feeling again, and that feeling is telling me what 711 00:39:34,716 --> 00:40:06,596 Speaker 1: I value and I need to pay attention to that. Hey, 712 00:40:06,756 --> 00:40:09,836 Speaker 1: thanks so much for listening. Please join next week for 713 00:40:09,916 --> 00:40:13,236 Speaker 1: an episode that is really close to my heart. My guest, 714 00:40:13,396 --> 00:40:16,076 Speaker 1: Christy Warren, is actually a Slight Change of Plans listener, 715 00:40:16,556 --> 00:40:19,116 Speaker 1: and she reached out to me about her experiences working 716 00:40:19,156 --> 00:40:22,116 Speaker 1: as a paramedic and firefighter for more than two decades. 717 00:40:22,756 --> 00:40:26,316 Speaker 1: As a first responder, Christie made rescuing people her life's work, 718 00:40:27,036 --> 00:40:29,836 Speaker 1: but she eventually had to learn to save herself when 719 00:40:29,836 --> 00:40:33,556 Speaker 1: the psychological impact of the job became too much. Every 720 00:40:33,596 --> 00:40:35,196 Speaker 1: time I got off work, I'd start crying on the 721 00:40:35,236 --> 00:40:38,276 Speaker 1: way home. So this day I said, I'm not going 722 00:40:38,316 --> 00:40:39,836 Speaker 1: to cry, Like I'm going to make it home and 723 00:40:39,916 --> 00:40:42,276 Speaker 1: I'm not going to cry. And then I was going 724 00:40:42,356 --> 00:40:44,676 Speaker 1: to go meet somebody to play tennis. And I got 725 00:40:44,716 --> 00:40:48,196 Speaker 1: in my car drive to the tennis courts, and the 726 00:40:48,276 --> 00:40:52,396 Speaker 1: whole world came just tumbling down on me. Everything just 727 00:40:52,556 --> 00:40:54,476 Speaker 1: blew open and blew apart, and I was like, I 728 00:40:54,516 --> 00:40:57,236 Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. I can't go back to work. 729 00:40:57,316 --> 00:41:10,236 Speaker 1: I just can't. A Slight Change of Plans is created, 730 00:41:10,276 --> 00:41:13,956 Speaker 1: written an executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight 731 00:41:14,076 --> 00:41:17,876 Speaker 1: Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our story editor 732 00:41:18,036 --> 00:41:22,276 Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vestola, and our 733 00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:27,236 Speaker 1: associate producer Sarah McCrae. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, 734 00:41:27,476 --> 00:41:30,916 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 735 00:41:30,956 --> 00:41:33,796 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 736 00:41:33,916 --> 00:41:37,516 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 737 00:41:37,636 --> 00:41:40,636 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change 738 00:41:40,676 --> 00:41:44,156 Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. See you 739 00:41:44,236 --> 00:42:09,436 Speaker 1: next week. And what they did is they told kids 740 00:42:09,716 --> 00:42:12,796 Speaker 1: a story about two boys who lived near each other 741 00:42:12,916 --> 00:42:16,556 Speaker 1: in the same neighborhood and each day rode their bikes 742 00:42:16,676 --> 00:42:20,276 Speaker 1: to work. So one kid's name was Bob. Is it 743 00:42:20,316 --> 00:42:22,476 Speaker 1: to work or school? Because they're little kids, right, Okay, 744 00:42:23,476 --> 00:42:26,516 Speaker 1: these are some very advanced kids you've got, Yes, indeed, 745 00:42:26,636 --> 00:42:29,396 Speaker 1: indeed they're they're they're child actress. And so this is 746 00:42:29,476 --> 00:42:32,596 Speaker 1: a is taking place in Hollywood, and they're going to 747 00:42:32,716 --> 00:42:37,556 Speaker 1: quickly descend into drug addiction and despair. But first they're 748 00:42:37,556 --> 00:42:38,636 Speaker 1: going to ride their bucke