1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: In the Last Days, the so called Killer Granny, a 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: God's Misfits cult member, escapes the death penalty in the 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: brutal murder of two Kansas moms. 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: A grandma who was part of a gang called God's 8 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: Misfits has just escaped the DP the death penalty after 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: she confesses she in cold blood murdered two young moms 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: in Oklahoma. Tiffany Adams aka Killer Granny, pled no contest. Yeah, 11 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: no contest. Now, defense attorneys will tell you that's not guilty. 12 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: Yes it is. It is viewed as a guilt gilty plea. 13 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 2: They just don't have the backbone to put it mildly, 14 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: to stand up in court and say yes, I did it. 15 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: They are sentenced as a guilty plea, and it is 16 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 2: viewed as a guilty plea under the law. Tiffany Adams 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: pled no contest, no look contenderary on two counts a 18 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: first degree murder, two counts of unlawful removal of a 19 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: dead body, two counts of unlawful desecration of a human corpse, 20 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: and will serve life without parole. I will never forget 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: what happened to Veronica Butler just twenty seven, Jillian Kelly 22 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: in her thirties, two young innocent moms on a lonely highway. 23 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: This is what happened. 24 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: The planned meeting place for Veronica Butler to pick up 25 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 3: her children was a closed gas station near the intersection 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 3: of Oklahoma State Highway ninety five and Rhodel. The area 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: is flat and desolate. There are no trees or homes nearby, 28 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: as well as no traffic camera. This is where Melissa 29 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 3: and Joey Padilla, relatives of Veronica Butler, found her car 30 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: after the mom didn't arrive at a birthday party for 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 3: one of her children. The car was abandoned and there 32 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 3: were pools of blood nearby, so they called police. Investigators 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: now say they believe Butler and Jillian and Kelly were 34 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 3: lured to the location, arriving around nine forty am. Besides 35 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 3: the pools of blood, officers found Butler's glasses on the 36 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 3: ground near a broken hammer. Kelly's purse was also found. 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: Inside was a gun magazine, but no weapon. Police say 38 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: the women were forced into another vehicle. The women's phone 39 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: stopped sending signals at nine forty two am. 40 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: Only that official court document seemingly reveal that this was 41 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: not their first attempt on the young mom with me 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: an all star panel to make sense of what we 43 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 2: are learning stunning and chilling details emerging for a straight 44 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: out to Lauren Conlin, investigative journalist's host off the Outlawyer podcast, Lauren, 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. You've been on the 46 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: case the very beginning. I can't believe what I am 47 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: seeing in this affidavit. 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: A granny, a killer granny. 49 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: Suspect uses a bulldozer guns, Lauren, what's happening? 50 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 4: This is so tragic. 51 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 5: It came out in these affidavits that this was not 52 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 5: the first attempt to take Veronica Butler's life. 53 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 4: They were planning to do something in February. 54 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 5: Where an anvil would go through her windshield as this 55 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 5: was very common in the area. 56 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: They would fall off construction trucks, and. 57 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: They believed, Okay, please tell me you aren't somehow a 58 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: victim of Stockholm syndrome because anvils don't just fall out 59 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: of the air into people's cars. 60 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: I don't care where it is. 61 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: I mean, hold on right there, Cheryl McCollum is joining me, 62 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: founder director of the Cold Case re Search Institute, forensics expert. 63 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, she's joining me right now 64 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: from her squad car. Cheryl, host of a Hitting You podcast, 65 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: Zone seven. I know, maybe in crazy Granny's world, an 66 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: advil falling from the sky or off a truck into 67 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: the young mom's car sounds reasonable. 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: It's not, Cheryl, It's not reasonable. It is not reasonable. 69 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 6: You're talking about something that is so heavy there's no 70 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 6: way it's going to fall off a truck, and if 71 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 6: it does, it's simply gonna land three feet onto the pavement, 72 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 6: not up five to six feet through her windshield. So again, 73 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 6: when you're talking about plotting and playing a murder and 74 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 6: your baseline is wiley coyote, you've got problems from the 75 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 6: get go. This was asinine at best. 76 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: Can I ask you something, Cheryl McCollum. I know you're 77 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 2: comparing them to a and their plan to a wily 78 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 2: coyote plot. But these two women are dead, six children 79 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: between them, and I don't care what anybody says, including 80 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: a shrink that will tell me how wrong I am. 81 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: There is nothing that can replace your mother, nothing, Amen, 82 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: And it may be a far fetched plan. 83 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: It may be, but these ladies are dead. Not just 84 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: the young. 85 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: Mom who is her right there, just going to throw 86 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: a birthday party for her children. That's Veronica Butler, just 87 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: twenty seven years old. But then you've got the other lady, 88 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: the church secretary preacher wife. She's dead too, Jilly and 89 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: Kelly in her thirties, the prime of her life. She 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: was just doing a ride along to facilitate the visitation 91 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: and the pickup of mom's babies. 92 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: Six children without a mom. So I don't care how 93 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: zany their plot is. 94 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 2: There were pools of blood left around this young mom's 95 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: car because in my mind of. 96 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: Killer Granny Maysh wrought in Hele and let. 97 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: Me point out, as Kelly Hyman will tell me pretty quickly, 98 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 2: they're innocent until proven guilty, and you can all quit 99 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: telling me that on Twitter. I know that I know 100 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: they're not guilty yet, but I guarantee you they will 101 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 2: be because. 102 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: Of a track A mile wide, isn't that right, Lauren Collin? 103 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: A mile wide? 104 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: Tell me about the evidence we're learning out of this 105 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: warrant right here. 106 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: Okay, so this is crazy. 107 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 5: So first and foremost, they got a search warrant on 108 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 5: I believe it was March thirty first for Tiffany Adams's phone. 109 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 5: So they searched on her phone and they find searches. 110 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 4: That read taser pain level, where to. 111 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 5: Buy a gun at different gunshops in the area, and 112 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 5: then where to get free paid cell phones, and then 113 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 5: how to get someone out of their house. 114 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 4: Now in the meantime, my boyfriend. 115 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: You know what, you're just like spouting all this damning 116 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: information like it's a fire hydrant. 117 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: Lauren Conlin, too much, too fast. 118 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here, he said, 119 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: Look the pain level of a taser. That was the 120 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: mother in law's just say Google search, she searched, the 121 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: pay level of a taser? 122 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 4: She did, she searched. 123 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: Okay, I got to go now to an eminent guest 124 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: joining me, doctor Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical 125 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: examiner in Terrance County. That's Fort Worth near Dallas Lecturer University, 126 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: Texan Christian University Medical School, and he is joining us 127 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: right now from his office at the Medical Examiners. 128 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, thank you for being with us. 129 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: I had a good friend at CNN who actually tasered 130 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 2: himself and a good friend at Court TV that followed 131 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: up on it to make sure it really hurt. God 132 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: rest his soul, Michael Christian. So, doctor Kittle Crowns, tell 133 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: me how a taser works, and this is what was 134 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: the plan. This is the plan to use on two 135 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: unarmed moms a taser. How does it work and how 136 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: badly does it hurt? Doctor Crowns. 137 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 7: So, conductive electronic devices like taser work by injecting prongs 138 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 7: into your skin and then using these skins moisture to 139 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 7: conduct electricity across it and then send a large amount 140 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 7: of electricity into your body, basically shocking you. The shock 141 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 7: itself causes a tremendous amount of pain, causes you to 142 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,239 Speaker 7: spasm and then collapse. 143 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: See that's why I have to work with you so 144 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 2: much before I could put you on the stand. Conductive 145 00:08:54,520 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: electronic device? What are you talking about? Can you dumb 146 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: me down for me? 147 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: Please? 148 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: Just saying regular people talk how a taser works and 149 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: the amount of pain. 150 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 7: What can we compare it to conductive electronic devices? Is 151 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 7: what a taser is. Taser themselves prefer you call it 152 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 7: a conductive electronic device, because not all conductive electronic devices 153 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 7: are tasers. It's like a xerox machine is a copier, 154 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 7: et cetera. So it is basically electricity being forced into 155 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 7: your body, high amounts of electricity. It'd be like you 156 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 7: putting a fork into a wall socket. You get the 157 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 7: same kind of experience from that, except the wall socket 158 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 7: doesn't cause as much electricity to go through you as 159 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 7: a taser does. 160 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 2: As a general rule, a taser start with the baseline 161 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: a fifty thousand vaults of electricity. Fifty thousand volts of electricity. 162 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: What does that mean, doctor Kendall Crowns. 163 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 7: That's the hig of electricity. It's higher than basically your 164 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 7: standard current in your house. So it's a large amount 165 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 7: of electricity being put into your body all at once. 166 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: Just think about it. 167 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: Think about it, Cheryl McCollum, This evil mother in law 168 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: was prepared to use fifty thousand vaults of electricity minimum 169 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: on the victims, in this case, two unarmed women. She 170 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 2: didn't care if she caused that amount of pain. 171 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 6: But let's talk even more basic. In the beginning. You've 172 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 6: got four people and two women. It doesn't take a 173 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 6: taser to control them. If you ambushed two unsuspecting victims. 174 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 6: With four people, you're going to be able to control 175 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 6: them fairly easily. I believe that the stun gun was for. 176 00:10:51,559 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 8: Torture crime stories with Nancy Gray. 177 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: I will never forget what happened to these two beautiful 178 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: young moms and this woman, the killer Granny Adams, is 179 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: accused of being the mastermind behind the fatal stabbing of 180 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: her own grandchildren's mother, Veronica Butler and her friend Jillian Kelly. 181 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: Killer Granny Adams was a member of the anti government 182 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: cult group God's Misfits, and this is what happened to 183 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: those two beautiful moms. Kelly suffered nine stab wounds and 184 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: seven cuts to her back and seven cuts to the 185 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 2: back of her neck and head. She also suffered a 186 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 2: fractured vertebra and damaged spinal cord when she was killed, 187 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: stunned gun marks on her neck and cuts to her hand, 188 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: indicating she tried to defend herself. Her friend, twenty seven 189 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: year old Veronica Butler, tragically killed in a very similar manner. 190 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: Both women found in quote pools of blood. Veronica suffered 191 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: a total of thirty sharp force injuries, including sliced fingers, 192 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 2: consistent with attempting to defend herself. That's straight out of 193 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: the autopsy report. And she was also found with stun 194 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: gun marks to the back of her neck. The autopsies 195 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: indicate both women were believed to have been killed before 196 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: they were placed in a deep chest freezer. The freezer 197 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: found under concrete slab and buried eight feet below the surface. 198 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 2: Kelly Hymen, I mean it is Yang, which they call 199 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: themselves God's misfits, have left a trail a mile wide. 200 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: The State's going to have a field day with this. 201 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 9: This is a horrible story for these young kids to 202 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 9: lose their mother. And we always when we look at 203 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 9: things is why do people do this? What was their 204 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 9: motive behind this? What was their reasoning behind this? That's key, 205 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 9: And allegedly they were in some big family dispute, bitter 206 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 9: dispute that left these beautiful kids without a mother. Ultimately, Nancy, 207 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 9: as you said, you are innocent until proven guilty, But 208 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 9: there is allegedly a lot of evidence coming out that's 209 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 9: going to make a strong case for the state. 210 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: I need to bring up the innocent until proven guilty part. 211 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: What more do we know? 212 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 2: Guys straight out to Lauren Colin, guns bulldozers, tasers, stun guns. 213 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: What more do we know, Lauren? 214 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: And all of this is to take out two innocent, 215 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 2: unarmed mothers. 216 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 4: Yes, let me stop you. There have been no guns found, 217 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 4: just stun guns. 218 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 5: So this is actually really interesting, and I'm a bit confused. 219 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 4: I came across I think it was yesterday or the 220 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 4: day before. It was on an outlet. 221 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 5: Called the Oklahomaan, and you have to pay for a 222 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 5: lot of these articles. I did not pay, but I 223 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 5: did find a little snippet where the medical examiner said, 224 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 5: I don't believe they were a shot. 225 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 4: And I'm going through. 226 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 5: All of these affidavits, the arrest appa, davits, all the 227 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 5: probable cause, and I don't see any guns. And as 228 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 5: Dave Max said, you know, Jillian Kelly had a pistol 229 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 5: magazine in her purse, but there were no guns. So 230 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 5: all we have here is burner phones and stun guns. 231 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 4: And then we have the equipment that I was going 232 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 4: to get to. 233 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 5: So Tad Cullum, Tiffany's boyfriend, he rented some land about 234 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 5: eight miles away from where their vehicle was initially found 235 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 5: Veronica and Gillian's, and he rented equipment like bulldozers and 236 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 5: all these these names that my son would know, skid 237 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 5: steers could be much better than than I am at 238 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 5: this And he ends up digging a hole in this 239 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 5: property and then covering it with hay. 240 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 4: And this area is the last place. 241 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 5: Where the women's phones were actually pinged this area, and 242 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 5: the property owner. 243 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 4: I believe his name is Jamie Beasley, he had no 244 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 4: idea what. 245 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 10: Was going on. 246 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 4: So when authorities, you. 247 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 5: Know, send all those trucks to get the to get 248 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 5: the women, to get the bodies, once they get the tip, 249 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 5: he's crying. He's like, oh my gosh, I had no 250 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 5: idea and just in complete and utter. 251 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: Shocks and joining me. 252 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, Founder director Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert. Cheryl, 253 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: I can say all the digital fingerprints, footprint adding up 254 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: placing the moms at this location and coincidentally the same 255 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: location where the burner phones were turned off. But I 256 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 2: want to talk about the mag the magazine, the gun 257 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: magazine found in one of the victims purses. 258 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: There's no indication that either of the victims had a gun. 259 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: And when I say a magazine, I'm talking about a 260 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: mag not a clip. A mag feeds rounds into the 261 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: gun chamber as it's being fired. 262 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: So what do you make of a mag being found? 263 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 6: Not verified? A lot of information. They're playing this close 264 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 6: to the vest, which they should. But let's say you 265 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 6: are going with somebody to beat you know, ex family 266 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 6: members that they've been fighting with for nine years. Maybe 267 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 6: somebody gave her something to, you know, protect herself. We 268 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 6: don't know if this was her, you know, potential particle 269 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 6: weapon or perpetrator. We don't know yet. And you know, 270 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 6: all we do know is there are pools of blood 271 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 6: at the seat, broken hammer, So was somebody shine, was 272 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 6: somebody hit in the head? 273 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 11: Blood force trauma? We don't know yet. 274 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: Guys, we are learning that a minor, we believe it 275 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: to be a teen girl, has turned informant. 276 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. 277 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 12: The teenager told police that she had heard conversation among 278 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 12: the adults that Adam's grandchildren were at risk when they 279 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 12: were with Butler. She told investigators that Adams had provided 280 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 12: Burner phones so that personal devices were not needed to communicate. 281 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 12: The girl said she had seen two of the phones 282 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 12: charging on her mother's nightstand the day before the murders. 283 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 12: Adam's boyfriend Column forty three had asked the owner of 284 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 12: the property he rented if he could do some work 285 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 12: there with his kids. Seer a kind of bulldozer. According 286 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 12: to the owner's conversation with police, Colum reportedly said he 287 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 12: wanted to cut down a tree, remove a stump, and 288 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 12: bury some concrete. The teens said she heard that her 289 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 12: mother and stepfather blocked the road, diverting the women to 290 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 12: where the others were waiting. When asked why Kelly had 291 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 12: to die, her mother reportedly said because Kelly supported Butler. 292 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 12: She wasn't innocent. The child asked Cora Twombly if they 293 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 12: had put the bodies in a well. She was told 294 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 12: something like. 295 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 2: That, Wow, it's always difficult to put a child on 296 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 2: the stand during a jury trial, but sometimes you have to. 297 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 2: This teen girl revealing so much of what was going 298 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: on in the. 299 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: Home before the murders. 300 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: In the home of the suspects, straight back out to 301 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: Lauren Colin, joining US investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. So, 302 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: a skid steer is a kind of bulldozer. Where were 303 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: the two moms bodies found? 304 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 5: So they were found by a dam in that rented 305 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 5: area of the property, So I'm assuming that they were 306 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 5: somewhat covered by this hay and the fresh dirt. I 307 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 5: believe they called it the soil, and they were easy 308 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 5: to find. I also I want to point something out 309 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 5: as well, Nancy. Her the witness, Cora told her or 310 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 5: her daughter, whoever the witness was, that things didn't go 311 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 5: according to plan. 312 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 4: This mission did not go according to plan. 313 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 5: So I don't know exactly what that means, but I 314 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 5: have a hunch it has something to do with a 315 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 5: possible fit suspect that hasn't been arrested. 316 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 4: But that's just my. 317 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: Team joining me right now. 318 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: Former US Marshall Service International Investigations Branch, author of Flying 319 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: Solo on Amazon. IRV Brandt joining US IRV Brandt. Did 320 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: you hear what Lauren Colin just said, and I've read 321 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: it in the official Cord docs that this gang God's Misfits. 322 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: Said they were on a mission. 323 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: They call murdering these two young moms a mission? 324 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: What a mission from hell? 325 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 10: That's exactly what it was, Nancy. These people are obviously deranged. 326 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 10: They're not criminal masterminds. They had a previous murder plan 327 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 10: that didn't didn't pan out. Then they go into this 328 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 10: elaborate plan using stun guns and a bulldozer, but they 329 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 10: leave a trail a mile wide for police investigators to follow. Nancy, 330 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 10: I've never seen anything like this. They might as well 331 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 10: have written out a confession and signed it and sent 332 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 10: it to the police. 333 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 2: Soon after the bodies were found, police arrested Butler's children's 334 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams while that's a mother in law 335 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: from Hale, along with her boyfriend Tad Cullum, alongside Cole 336 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: Twombly and Cora Twombly. 337 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: All of them charged with murder. 338 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: But in the last days this autopsy speaks volumes. The 339 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: full autopsy report for the second Kansas mom buried in 340 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: a freezer in a cow pasture after being reported missing on. 341 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: A road trip, just released. 342 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: Much of the medical examiner's deductions is found in this 343 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: phrase quote. Given the extent of miss Butler's injuries, including 344 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: defects to both of her internal jugular veins with resultant 345 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: exagination bleeding out, it is my opinion her death was 346 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: very quick and likely occurred before she was placed inside 347 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: the freezer and buried. The autopsy goes on to say, quote, 348 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: this opinion is additionally supported by the fact her body 349 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: appeared to have remained exactly how it was placed inside 350 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: the freezer. 351 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: Okay, what does that mean? Was her body folded or 352 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: crumpled up? 353 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 2: The autopsy on Veronica was released about two weeks after 354 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: the report on Jillian and Kelly, the other mom missing 355 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: on the road trip. That report revealed even more details 356 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: about her death. What more do we know about that 357 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: fateful day and the people now charged with murder? 358 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: Earlier I think we heard Cheryl. 359 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: McCollum compared it to Wiley Coyote their plot, and I 360 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 2: admonished her because we've got two dead moms. But actually 361 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: it does sound like something out of the Apple Dumpling Gang, except. 362 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: Nobody ever died in those movies. 363 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: Where they've been watching way too many movies with the 364 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 2: burner phones and the rendezvous point and the bull I mean, 365 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: how much more obvious can it be or a brand 366 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 2: than to rent a bulldozer or to bring over your 367 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 2: bulldozer Mancia. 368 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 10: I mean, I can even give you a reasonable explanation 369 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 10: for their line of thinking. This is just not It's 370 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 10: like Cheryl Max said, it's something out of a cartoon 371 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 10: trying to drop an acme anvil on their head. I 372 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 10: don't know where these people came up with their ideas 373 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 10: when they started researching it online. That amounts to, you know, 374 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 10: someone saying, well, I want to poison someone, then doing it, 375 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 10: you know, researching it on their computer, then ordering poison 376 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 10: off an Amazon to carry out the murder. I can't 377 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 10: give you an explanation, Nancy, I'm sorry. 378 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 3: The team told police that she was told that her 379 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 3: mother and stepfather would be gone that Saturday. When the 380 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: team woke up, she was told they were going to 381 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 3: be on a mission, and she was told the twine 382 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: Bleaves were not home when she woke up around ten am. 383 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 3: She says. The couple came back around noon in their 384 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 3: pickup and a flatbed pickup owned by a relative. The 385 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: teen says she was told to clean the interior of 386 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 3: the Chevrolet pickup. She asked what had happened. She was 387 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 3: told things had not gone as plan, but that they 388 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 3: would not have to worry about Butler again. At the 389 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 3: same time that the Twemblys arrived home, Tiffany Adams went 390 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 3: to pick up her grandchildren at the home of the 391 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 3: other couple who hosted God's Misfits meetings. 392 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: The affidavit said joining me in All Star panel, Cheryl McCollum. 393 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: Did you hear that. 394 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 6: They used their own vehicle, They used their own computer, 395 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 6: They used their own cell phones to send text message, 396 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 6: They spoke in front of witnesses again for four people 397 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 6: to plot and plan. They made such severe mistakes. I 398 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 6: agree with her. They might as well have just done 399 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 6: a confession from the get go, because it was obvious 400 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 6: who did it. You and I talked today about you know, 401 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 6: the victims left a town of twelve hundred people to 402 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 6: go to a town of two hundred and eighty one people. 403 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 11: Your respect pool was people right off the bat. 404 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: According to the witness that has emerged, this teen girl 405 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 2: was told the mother, her I guess boyfriend, and two 406 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 2: others who claimed to be quote God's misfits were on 407 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 2: a quote mission I'm reading from the affidavit they were 408 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: going to be on a mission. She woke up around 409 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 2: ten am. They all came back around noon, the defendants 410 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: in a pickup and a flatbed owned by a relative, 411 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: and she, the teen girl, was told to clean the 412 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: interior of the Chevrolet pickup. 413 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: What does that mean to me? 414 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 2: That means that at least one of these mothers was 415 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: transported to a burial site in the Chevy pickup. When 416 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: the girl asked what happened, she was told things had 417 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 2: quote not gone as planned, but they would never have 418 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: to worry about Butler, that being twenty. 419 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 1: Seven year old mom Veronica Butler. Again. 420 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: At the same time, Tiffany Adams goes to pick up 421 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 2: the grandchildren elsewhere another couple's home who hosted God's Misfits meetings. 422 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: What does that say to me? 423 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: That tells me out to Kelly Hyman, a veteran trial lawyer, 424 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: that there are other people, the ones that were babysitting 425 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 2: the children during all of this, that knew about the 426 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: plan and they are going to be states witnesses along 427 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: with this teen girl. As if I don't have enough 428 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: information and enough evidence anyway, now these babysitters, the other 429 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 2: God's Misfits, they're going to be witnesses or they could 430 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 2: always be charged for aiding and a bedding and I 431 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: don't think they want to go to the pen for that. 432 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: You bring up a really good point. 433 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 9: Yes, so if people overheard this, they could potentially be 434 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 9: the state's witness and what that means is they will 435 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 9: testify in the trial of saying what they've heard, or 436 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 9: potentially if they could potentially be charged with aiding and 437 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 9: betting and insisting in this in the fact if they don't, 438 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 9: if they helped assist with this murder. 439 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: And stuff like that. 440 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 9: So it'll be interesting to see what transpires in the 441 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 9: coming next days and whose turns as a state witness 442 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 9: or potentially are there going to be additional charges for 443 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 9: people who overheard stuff and were potentially involved in this 444 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 9: as well. 445 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 2: Back to doctor Kendall Crown's joining us out of chart 446 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: County fort were from the Medical Examiner's office. Doctor Crown's, again, 447 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. We're trying to determine 448 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: whether the manner of death was shooting or stabbing. I 449 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: know the bodies had been buried haphazardly. 450 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: Would you be able to tell and how the manner 451 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: and cause of death? 452 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 7: Certainly you'd be able to determine the cause of death 453 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 7: based on the injury patterns even though they had been buried. 454 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 7: It won't take away the damage to the body, especially 455 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 7: to the skeletal system kind of, and then the manner 456 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 7: of death would be fairly easy. 457 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: The fact that they've been. 458 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 7: Buried out in the middle of nowhere. They're obviously been killed, 459 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 7: so it's going to be a homicide. So determining between 460 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 7: gunshot wounds, stabbings or beatings, it would just be looking 461 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 7: at the injury patterns on the body based on the 462 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 7: information you already had. Pools of blood, broken hammer, the 463 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 7: fact that they were talking about using an anvil in 464 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 7: the first place makes me feel like they've probably beaten 465 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 7: these individuals to death using a hammer after they stunned them. 466 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: Okay, you know, doctor Kimmel Crowns, I understand what you're saying. 467 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 1: Now. 468 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: You believe there's a very strong potential on the two 469 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: victims being beaten dead with a hammer. 470 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: And why do you say that? 471 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 7: Because there's a broken hammer at the scene, there's pools 472 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 7: of blood, and they have been talking about doing blunt 473 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 7: force trauma to the individuals in the first place, using 474 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 7: an hanvil. So it doesn't sound like they had planned 475 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 7: to use guns all along, that they kind of planned 476 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 7: to use blunt force trauma. So it makes me think 477 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 7: that they use the stun guns to kind of subdue 478 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 7: them and then just beat them to death with a hammer. 479 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 2: You know, doctor Kendall Crowns, I was thinking gun because 480 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: of the amount of blood pools of blood there, and 481 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 2: I attributed the hammer handle to breaking the windshield because 482 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: a witness stated she had driven by and was around 483 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: ten am. The mom's left for their journey of forty 484 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: five minute drive around nine am, and at ten am 485 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 2: a female witness drives by and sees their vehicle and 486 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: sees a window on the driver's side bust it out. Now, 487 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: I attributed the discovery of the hammer handle to breaking 488 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: out the window, But your theory makes a lot more 489 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 2: sense to me. Plus, I'm not hearing about any guns 490 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 2: being registered to the defendants, although I find. 491 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: That really hard to believe. But that said, what about it, 492 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. 493 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 6: As to why the glasses will be on the ground, 494 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 6: large pools of blood. Nobody in the vicinity heard a 495 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 6: gunshot it also, would you know? To me, goes back 496 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 6: to my theory. They were tortured. This was anger. She 497 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 6: didn't look up stunn gum, she looked up the pain level. 498 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 11: This was very personal. They have been fighting. 499 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 6: For almost a decade over those children and they were attacked. 500 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 6: I'm going to say it again, this didn't take four people. 501 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 6: This was a deliberate gang. 502 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 13: Ambush killer Granny's suspects bloody ambush on two unarmed Kansas 503 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 13: moms on their way to a children's birthday party, and 504 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 13: they apparently used tasers, burner phones, even a bulldozer to 505 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 13: affect their plan. 506 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: Joining me an All Star panel. You were just hearing 507 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum. But now to Lauren Conlin, the investigative journalist's 508 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: host of the Outlier podcast. I want to hear what 509 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 2: you have to say about the use of the hammer 510 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: as the murder weapon. But also I found something buried 511 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: in the affidavit and I found this really interesting. I 512 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: want everybody on the panel to jump in. We find 513 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: out that three prepaid cellular phones were purchased from Walmart 514 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: in Oklahoma back on Feb thirteen. That's how long they've 515 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: been planning this since Feb thirteen. This is what I 516 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: found really interesting. All three of the burner phones were 517 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: powered on and access cellular network for the first time 518 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: at Colum's residence, So Ellie law enforcement can identify the 519 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: first time these idiots turned on their phone is basically inside. 520 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: Their own home. Dang dong. 521 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: They couldn't figure out that they are leaving a digital trail. 522 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: They're turning on the cellular phones that were used to 523 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: orchestrate this double murder. They turn it on for the 524 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: first time in or near their own home. I mean, 525 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 2: they need to go back and watch Ocean's eleven all 526 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 2: over again. 527 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: Lauren Colin, you were jumping in. What were you saying? 528 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 5: Well, I can provide some context to this as well, 529 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 5: because while they appear to be extremely dumb criminals, obviously, 530 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 5: I think there's an element to this, right, the farm element. 531 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 5: I don't think that it's out of the ordinary that 532 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 5: he would rend farm equipment or dig holes xyz. 533 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: But using your own cell phones. 534 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 5: And turning these cell phones, these burner phones on at 535 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 5: your own house. This goes to the fact that Tiffany 536 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 5: Adams is actually. 537 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 4: Very connected in that town. 538 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 5: She runs and is responsible for the Simmern County GOP. 539 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 11: She's their chair, she was a former school board chair. 540 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 4: She knows the Sheriff's office. 541 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 5: I mean, I think there was a quote where she 542 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 5: had said, you know, I know the path the judge 543 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 5: takes to work. She knows everybody, and I believe that 544 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 5: she thinks that she is untouchable and people don't necessarily 545 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 5: want to talk the one judge that did speak. He 546 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 5: was forced to resign the next day. So it's really interesting. 547 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 5: And I think that this woman, in particular, Tiffany Adams, 548 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 5: she holds a type of power that we are just 549 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 5: going to be learning about. 550 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: Well, you know what that calls for a change a 551 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: venue that won't be hard. 552 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: You know, I'm. 553 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 2: Still looking very carefully at this, Adma, David, and I 554 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: want everybody to weigh in on this. 555 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 14: The whole dug about two hundred yards below with dam 556 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 14: feel back in and covered with Hey, I mean you 557 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 14: could probably see that with a drive over from a helicopter. 558 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, did they not think cops are going 559 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: to find that? I mean, or Brandt. I've seen many 560 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: many homicides. 561 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 2: I've investigated many, tried many, covered many. But this is 562 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: a plethora a Pandora's box of evidence. 563 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 10: Nancy, That's exactly right. Like you, I've been doing this 564 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 10: all my adult life, and I have never seen a 565 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 10: case probably easier to solve, easier to prove. When we 566 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 10: take it to you, as the prosecuting attorney, you'd look 567 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 10: at us and say, you've got to be kidding me. 568 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 10: You know, I can't believe this. Where's did they videotape 569 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 10: themselves committing the crime? Did they post it on social media? 570 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 10: They did just about everything else. It's imaginable, you know, 571 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 10: to say they did it. The confessions have got to 572 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 10: be forthcoming. I would imagine the police. 573 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 574 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 2: Two beautiful young moms murdered and their bodies desecrated in 575 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: such a horrible way. Oh to be buried out in 576 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: a field, a cow pasture, then covered with cement blocks. 577 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: Off what they did to these women? And now killer 578 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: Granny escapes the DP. What do you think what happened 579 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 2: to these two moms, Veronica and Julian. 580 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to this. 581 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 12: The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler's two children, 582 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 12: a custody battle has going on for more than five years. 583 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 12: Father wrangler Rickman, Tiffany Adam's son, was awarded custody of 584 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 12: the children, but Rickman was confirmed to be in a 585 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 12: rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time of the murders. 586 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 12: For Veronica, Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with 587 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 12: her children every Saturday, and reportedly, according to Butler's attorney 588 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 12: she was likely to be granted unsupervised visitation during an 589 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 12: upcoming hearing the Affadavid states that Adams vehemently opposed this 590 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 12: and went to great links to plan and purchase items 591 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 12: used in Butler and Kelly's murders. It continues Adam, Cullum, 592 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 12: Cole and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two 593 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 12: victims to limit visitation for Butler. 594 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: And isn't she guys who are talking about Adams are 595 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 2: talking about Tiffany Michelle Adams, age fifty four, who is 596 00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: the alleged evil mother in law her who played this. 597 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: It seems to think that she's the political boss of 598 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 2: the county. I got needs for her political boss or no, 599 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 2: she's going down because of her own actions. And it 600 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: seemingly straight back out to Lauren Colin or anybody. Eryl McCollum, 601 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 2: you may know the answer to this. It seems as 602 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 2: if earlier there were plans to take out a judge. 603 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,959 Speaker 2: Another relative was concerned about the custody issue and was. 604 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: Told that no need for concern. 605 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 2: They wouldn't they would not have to worry about the 606 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: custody battle much longer because and I'm quoting from the affidavit, Adams, 607 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: that's the grandma, the mother in law quote had it 608 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: under control, that she knew the path. The judge walked 609 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 2: to work and would take out Veronica at the drop off. 610 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 2: Take out Veronica at the drop off. 611 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: What about that? 612 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 11: Tell it on herself. She has told on herself. 613 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 6: I think for the last nine years, I think there's 614 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 6: probably been threats all over creation. And let me tell 615 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 6: you the most franaking thing for me, this woman, the 616 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 6: ex mother in law, cannot stand Veronica. She has made 617 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 6: that clear. Veronica is no good for the children. They're 618 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,240 Speaker 6: not safe with her. She probably doesn't cook and clean, 619 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 6: she doesn't take care of them. They're only you know, okay, 620 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 6: when they're in her custody. When Veronica did not meet 621 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 6: except the children up, especially on the daughter's birthday, remember 622 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 6: it was her birthday, she would have been the first person, 623 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 6: Tiffany would have been the first person call of the 624 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 6: court saying she's in contempt. 625 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 11: I told y'all she was no good. 626 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,919 Speaker 6: I've got these children sitting here crying because their mama 627 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 6: didn't show up. Is this baby's birthday? When she didn't 628 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 6: do that, she didn't make that call. Pitching a fen 629 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 6: that told me right there she's involved. 630 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: Is nobody worried about? 631 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 2: Discussion of killing a judge pops up in the affidavit 632 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: because I'm looking right at it that we don't have 633 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 2: to worry about custody anymore. Because Adams, that would be 634 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 2: the mother in law, Tiffany Adams quote, knew the path 635 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 2: the judge walked to work. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, and 636 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 2: I'm the only one seeing that. Were they going to 637 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 2: kill a judge too? 638 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 11: It is telling you the links that she was going 639 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 11: to go to Nancy. 640 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 6: Nothing was going to stop her from keeping those children 641 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 6: away from Veronica. She was going to have every possible 642 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,280 Speaker 6: avenue stopped so that she could have these children. 643 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: Nancy. 644 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 6: She's supposedly so connected to the courts and to the police, 645 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 6: but she has refused to go by any of the 646 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 6: court's order. They've basically made her bulletproof for years. She 647 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 6: had stopped the mama for for years. She has refused 648 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 6: to do what the court tells her to do. And 649 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 6: when it looks to her that she could no longer 650 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 6: prow the court or the victim, she killed her. 651 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 11: That's how it looks, plain and simple. 652 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 2: There is the death penalty in Oklahoma, Kelly Hyman, there 653 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: have to be special aggravating circumstances in order for a 654 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 2: prosecutor to seek a death penalty, and those have to 655 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: be clearly enunciated far prior to trial, in writing. There 656 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 2: has to be an announcement the state is going to 657 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,240 Speaker 2: seek the death penalty, and there is a very limited 658 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 2: number of aggravating circumstances that will suffice. However, more than 659 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: one body is one of those aggravating circumstances. 660 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 9: Ultimately that will be up to the state to make 661 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 9: a determination on whether they believe that they can bring 662 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 9: it based on the facts and. 663 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 11: Evidence of the case. 664 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 9: But there is a lot of evidence that is coming out, 665 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 9: and Nancy, to your point about the alleged about the judge, 666 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,919 Speaker 9: that is very, very disconcerting because judges are the ones 667 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 9: that preside over the case and they're the ones that 668 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 9: make determinations, and so the fact that there is allegations 669 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 9: of harming a judge, which is very disconcerting and very upsetting. 670 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 9: But ultimately, no one, no matter who you are, is 671 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 9: above the law and people need to be held accountable, 672 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 9: and ultimately that will be up to the jury of 673 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 9: whether they're innocent or guilty in this case too. 674 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 2: Our brand joining US former US Marshal Service and author 675 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 2: IRV to thank All of this was over what every 676 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 2: other weekend or Wednesday to Saturday versus Thursday to Saturday visitations. 677 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 2: And you know, the so called evil mother in law, 678 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 2: evil granny killer suspect, she's the mother of the bio dad, 679 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 2: so she would have access to the grandchillildren every time 680 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 2: he had visitation or you know, shared custody, so if 681 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 2: he got the children half the time, she would have 682 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: access to the children half of their lives. And in 683 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 2: a divorce, you know, for a lot of people, that's 684 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 2: pretty good visitation. 685 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: And all of this over what a few days a month, Nancy, I. 686 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 10: Don't think the time had anything to do with it. 687 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 10: I think to this woman, this was obviously about control, 688 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 10: and she wanted complete control of when who was going 689 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 10: to see those children, and when they were going to 690 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 10: see those children, and what the circumstances were going to be. 691 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 10: And she wasn't even going to allow a judge to 692 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 10: dictate to her how to take care of these children, 693 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 10: because she said it, she'll take that judge out. She 694 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 10: knows his path to the court. So no, Nancy, it 695 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 10: makes no sense other than the fact that the woman 696 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 10: was one of complete control over every action concerning those children. 697 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: Two. Doctor Kendall crowns. 698 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall crowns your theory that a hammer was used 699 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,800 Speaker 2: to bludgeon the women dead, most likely about the face 700 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 2: and the head. The pain they would have endured preceding 701 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 2: their death would have been unbearable, correct. 702 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 7: I mean if these being tased or shocked with the 703 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 7: electronic devices or electric devices, then being beaten with a hammer. 704 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 7: Hammer isn't really efficient to kill someone because it's hard 705 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 7: to break the skull with a hammer, so they would 706 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 7: have to continually strike them multiple times, eventually fracturing the head. 707 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 2: Grandma has just escaped the death penalty after she confesses 708 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 2: she blood murdered two young moms in Oklahoma. Tiffany Adams 709 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 2: played no contest. Sometimes there just ain't no justice. Nancy 710 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 2: Grace signing off Goodbye friend.