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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 2: Good morning, everybody, Welcome to Breaking Points, where we have

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Speaker 2: an extra special show plan because we have celebrity guest

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Speaker 2: host Marshall Coslav, longtime, longtime front of the show and

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Speaker 2: friend also of Sager, sitting in this morning.

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Speaker 3: Great to see Marshall.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited to be here and moved out to Texas.

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Speaker 4: I had a kid, I have a mustache, so everything

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Speaker 4: is different. Everything has changed, and I'm exciting back on

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Speaker 4: the show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun.

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Speaker 2: So Marshall, if you guys don't know post the Realignment,

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Speaker 2: he also is in deep in the Abundance world. So

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to talk to you about some of

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Speaker 2: that because I've been listening. I told you to your

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Speaker 2: episodes on Abundance on the Realignment. It has actually helped

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Speaker 2: me much better to understand what's going on inside the

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Speaker 2: movement and what it's all about. So you can be

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Speaker 2: a little bit of our of our guide through abundance

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Speaker 2: World today, which I'm excited about. In addition, before I

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Speaker 2: forget guys announced this yesterday, we brought back the monthly subscription,

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Speaker 2: which I'm super excited about. I think it comes at

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Speaker 2: a really timely moment when you know, economics are a

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Speaker 2: little uncertain. That's actually what we're starting the show with today,

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Speaker 2: and we are doing a free monthly trial right now.

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Speaker 2: So if you want to try out being a premium

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Speaker 2: Breaking Point subscriber, go to Breakingpoints dot com. The promo

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Speaker 2: is BP free, so you can get that monthly trial subscription.

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Speaker 2: All right, So here's what is in the show today

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Speaker 2: is go ahead and put the show bar up so

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Speaker 2: I can read it and not have to use my memory,

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Speaker 2: which is a little bit suspect. We're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about the latest with regard to Tariff's back and forth

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Speaker 2: with China. We've got the continued fallout from that extraordinary

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Speaker 2: Ukraine drone attack. Wanted to get Marshall's take on that

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Speaker 2: in particular, and some reaction from Steve Bannon that was

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Speaker 2: kind of interesting.

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Speaker 3: We're going to dig into.

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Speaker 2: That New York City mayoral race which is tightening between

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Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo and Zoron Mamdani. A lot of really interesting

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Speaker 2: dynamics there. I think that will lead us into a

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Speaker 2: great discussion imiking forward to on abundance, what it is,

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Speaker 2: what it isn't, how the left should really be thinking

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Speaker 2: about it. And then we're going to thank Marshall first time,

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Speaker 2: let him go about his day, and Ken Clippenstein is

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Speaker 2: going to join to break down what's going on with Palentier.

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Speaker 2: Looks like the Trump administration is trying to assemble a

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Speaker 2: mass database of all of the information that they have

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Speaker 2: on every single American. Yes, you should be terrified about that.

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Speaker 2: I certainly am so. Ken is going to talk about that,

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Speaker 2: and he is also going to talk about Matthew Miller,

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Speaker 2: former State Department spokesperson under Joe Biden, basically admitting that

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Speaker 2: he was lying the entire time he was at the

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Speaker 2: podium and asserting that Israel had committed no war crimes.

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Speaker 2: So definitely want to look at that. So, Marshall, before

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Speaker 2: we jump into the news, a lot of rising and

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Speaker 2: breaking points. Fans know you already. You've undergone as all

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Speaker 2: of us have, I think, somewhat of a political evolution

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Speaker 2: over the years since you started being a guest on

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Speaker 2: the show. So before we jump in, why don't you

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Speaker 2: just sort of like set up for everybody who you.

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Speaker 3: Are, where you were, where you.

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Speaker 2: Are now, and kind of your general view of politics

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Speaker 2: in this moment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. So I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 4: with the twenty sixteen election was really huge, as it

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Speaker 4: should have been. If you serve a person who could

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Speaker 4: see both like Trump and Bernie, If you just were

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Speaker 4: comfortable with your perspectives and thoughts and evaluations of the

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Speaker 4: world before that and that did not at all change

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Speaker 4: by twenty sixteen, then I think there was probably something

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Speaker 4: wrong with you. So Sager and I have known each

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Speaker 4: other forever, so we started a podcast called The Realignment,

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Speaker 4: and the Realignment was really rooted in responding to this

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Speaker 4: twenty sixteen moment from both the right and the left,

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Speaker 4: and I think as someone who's sort of contrarian by nature,

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Speaker 4: I'm from like the center left Portland suburbs. I was

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Speaker 4: alway attracted to the right, especially in the twenty tens

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Speaker 4: after the twenty twelve election, where everything was up for

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Speaker 4: grabs right like Mitt Romney loses to Obama, you have

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Speaker 4: gay marriage passing at the Supreme Court. It seemed like

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Speaker 4: we were moving in one direction as a country, in

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Speaker 4: a more progressive direction by twenty fifty. So the question

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Speaker 4: of how would the right respond to that moment, I

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Speaker 4: think was genuinely the most fascinating question of the time.

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Speaker 4: Then that really got me into those spaces. I covered

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Speaker 4: a lot of those topics. The Realignment's first guest was

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Speaker 4: JD Vance before he was well. I met JD before

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Speaker 4: he was famous, But our first guest after JD was

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Speaker 4: a little more famous was JD on the show. So

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Speaker 4: covering that space was huge. After twenty twenty though, I

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Speaker 4: think obviously what kind of happened with everything from January

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Speaker 4: sixth to sort of COVID I think made pretty clear

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Speaker 4: that the I think most hopeful version of that right

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Speaker 4: populist project wasn't going to end well for anyone. It

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Speaker 4: wasn't going to lead to like a stronger United America,

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Speaker 4: was just leading to more division and the lack of

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Speaker 4: actual certainty on these questions. I started getting more interested

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Speaker 4: in the left and frankly started going back to my roots.

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Speaker 4: So just in the same way that like twenty thirteen

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Speaker 4: was like this big error where like the central questions were,

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Speaker 4: how would the right respond to how the twenty twelve

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Speaker 4: election really shattered their story? The question right now is

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Speaker 4: how is the center left? How is the center, how

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Speaker 4: is the center right? And how does the further parts

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Speaker 4: of the left I think you represent, really well, how

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Speaker 4: are they going to respond to that moment? So I

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Speaker 4: think my politics have naturally drifted towards where the big

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Speaker 4: questions are interesting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, excellent, Well, with that being said, let's go ahead

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Speaker 2: and jump into some of what is going on with

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration that I'm anxious to get Marshall's thoughts on.

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Speaker 2: In particular, Let's go and put this up on the screen,

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Speaker 2: so we have an update on how they are thinking.

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Speaker 3: About the tariff regime.

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Speaker 2: And you will recall that there was a series of

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Speaker 2: court decisions that were impactful here, So you had one court,

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Speaker 2: the Court of International Trade, that came in and said, okay,

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Speaker 2: you can't actually use this particular provision that you're using.

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Speaker 2: You have vastly exceeded your authority. You can't do that

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Speaker 2: to levy the Liberation Day tariffs. Another appeals court came

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Speaker 2: in and said, well, you can do it for now

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Speaker 2: while this is playing out in court. So the big

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Speaker 2: question has been how is the Trump administration going to respond.

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Speaker 2: Are they basically going to take the out and be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: well we tried and we're just going to move on now.

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Speaker 2: And effectively, all the indications are that they are not

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Speaker 2: going to go in that direction.

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Speaker 3: So that terror sheet that was up.

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Speaker 2: On the screen indicates that they want to have countries

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Speaker 2: provide their quote unquote best offer on trade negotiations by Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: as in tomorrow, as officials seek to accelerate talks with

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Speaker 2: multiple partners ahead of a self imposed deadline in just

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Speaker 2: five weeks, according to a draft letter to negotiating partners

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Speaker 2: seen by Reuters. So effectively they're saying that on that

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Speaker 2: you know, the Liberation Day, which the tariffs went into

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Speaker 2: effect on April ninth, they're giving them a deadline till

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Speaker 2: July eighth, and then if there isn't some sort of

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Speaker 2: deal into place, Trump is going to levy whatever teriffs

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Speaker 2: he decides to levy. A bunch of administration officials, including

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Speaker 2: Howard Lutnik, have been asked about the court real ruling

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Speaker 2: and if it makes a difference in terms of how

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Speaker 2: they go about this, and effectively they're all saying, no,

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Speaker 2: we're going to do what we want regardless of what

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Speaker 2: the courts say, and we'll figure out some other provision

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Speaker 2: to use. If it isn't a EPO, which was the

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Speaker 2: original provision, let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

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Speaker 5: Congress gives the president under this AEPA authority the ability

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Speaker 5: to take on other countries who are creating a national emergency.

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Speaker 5: And the one point two trillion dollar trade deficit and

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Speaker 5: all the underlying implications of that is a national emergency.

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Speaker 5: It's gutting our manufacturing base. The President takes that on

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Speaker 5: and Congress lets him do it, specifically, does not vote

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Speaker 5: to take it away, calls a vote, and says he

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Speaker 5: can keep it.

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Speaker 6: So what's going to happen is we're going to take

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Speaker 6: that up to higher courts.

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Speaker 5: The President's going to win like he always does. But

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Speaker 5: rest assured tariffs are not going the way. He has

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Speaker 5: so many other authorities that even in the weird and

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Speaker 5: unusual circums stance where this was taken away, we.

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Speaker 6: Just bring on another or another or another.

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Speaker 5: Congress has given this authority to the president and he's.

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Speaker 6: Going to use it.

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Speaker 2: And Marshall, my suspicion is that I and others who

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Speaker 2: were thinking that maybe the Iepacurt ruling would be like

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Speaker 2: an excuse with the Trump administration and back off of this,

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Speaker 2: we're probably mistaken, and they probably are going to just

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Speaker 2: figure out some other way to accomplish this. Because ultimately,

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Speaker 2: I'm curious this is I want to know your thoughts

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Speaker 2: on what really is going on here. I think Trump

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Speaker 2: loves the tariffs because it consolids a lot of power

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Speaker 2: in his hands, and I don't think that he is

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Speaker 2: going to let go of that easily.

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Speaker 4: I think it's not just the fact that he loves

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Speaker 4: the power and using the executive branch over Congress. I

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Speaker 4: think it's that if there are I'd say there are

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Speaker 4: probably two things we could reasonably say Trump one hundred

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Speaker 4: and twenty percent believes, Yeah, it's tariffs and immigration We

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Speaker 4: should also understand that because Trump had a first term

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Speaker 4: an interoperation between his first and second term. I think

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Speaker 4: he's coming into this administration and they've made very clear

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Speaker 4: that this is their priority. They see terroffs and immigrations

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Speaker 4: as their unfinished business that they did not get done. Therefore,

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Speaker 4: they are going to push as hard as they can

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Speaker 4: on this issue. That's just like the number one thing here.

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Speaker 4: If you don't understand that Trump just truly believes in

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Speaker 4: this more than almost anything else, you're going to sort

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Speaker 4: of miss the fact that they're going to keep pushing forward.

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Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, I actually think he

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Speaker 2: believes in tariffs more than he I think immigration is

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Speaker 2: more a means to an end for him because even

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Speaker 2: at times they're, you know, like he told all in guys,

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Speaker 2: the thing about we're going to staple a green card

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Speaker 2: to every you know, student who graduates, you know, would practice,

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Speaker 2: his administrations are obviously very hardline anti immigrant, and I

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Speaker 2: think he's basically outsourced that portfolio to Steven Miller, who

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Speaker 2: is a psycho and a white nationalist and is you know,

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Speaker 2: going full force with the anti immigrant program that he

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Speaker 2: wants to. But it seems like, the part of the

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Speaker 2: agenda that Trump has really taken the most interest in

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Speaker 2: and actually asserted himself in is the tariffs. And so

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Speaker 2: what is your view, Marshal of you know, the tariff program,

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Speaker 2: of the possibilities for do you see any upside here?

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Speaker 2: You know, what is your kind of like broad view

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Speaker 2: of what's going on and what the impact could be economically?

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Speaker 4: Yeah. No, So right before the election, when Sager and

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Speaker 4: I were talking about this on the realignment, we really

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Speaker 4: focus on the fact that if we want to understand

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Speaker 4: the story of the modern American presidency, it's that when

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Speaker 4: you come into your second term or even in your

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Speaker 4: first term of Biden, presidents are going to just have

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Speaker 4: like a theory of the case. And in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and five, after George W. Bush won, his big theory

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Speaker 4: of the case was I won, I have my mandate,

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Speaker 4: I won the popular vote. This time, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: do a social security of form, even though the voter

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Speaker 4: base wasn't actually there in this case. And you see this,

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Speaker 4: you know, leading up to the you know, twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: four election, Trump's theory of the case was, once again,

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Speaker 4: I'm coming back. I'm going to finish the job. And

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Speaker 4: this has been something I've talked about since in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighties when we were talking about Japan and other

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Speaker 4: East Asian countries. I am going to past tariffs. I'm

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Speaker 4: going to reindustrialize America by taking that specific route that

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Speaker 4: has always been his sort of approach. And the big

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Speaker 4: problem with these like mandate theories and these big like

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Speaker 4: this is my big agenda project that I come in,

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Speaker 4: is that mandate or that idea isn't actually sinc of

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Speaker 4: what the American people are failing. You're going to run

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Speaker 4: into a huge issue. The huge issue they ran into

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Speaker 4: is that if there's one lesson and we'll talk about

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Speaker 4: this during the Zoran segment, if there's one lesson that

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Speaker 4: we should take from the twenty twenty four election, it's

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Speaker 4: that pretty much the main thing Americans care about is

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Speaker 4: how unaffordable everything is right now, every single level. And

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Speaker 4: it's easy for people in the Trump administration just to say, like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know these cheap goods and do you need thirty

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Speaker 4: dollars You just have two dollars. If we look at

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Speaker 4: what's happened in America over the past fifty years, like education, healthcare, housing,

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Speaker 4: in those sectors, everything has gotten way, way, way, way

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Speaker 4: more expensive. The one thing we've actually kind of kept

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Speaker 4: relatively cheap at the cost of manufacturing, at the cost

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Speaker 4: of like in many ways, like our domestic politics and

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Speaker 4: domestic economy have just been these consumer goods. So coming

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Speaker 4: out of the COVID supply shock, coming out of Biden

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Speaker 4: ignoring this issue, we needed to pay attention to it.

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Speaker 4: Having your theory of the case be I'm going to

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Speaker 4: launch a massive trade war within the first three months

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Speaker 4: without doing the long term planning, without getting the industrial

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Speaker 4: policy together, without going to companies and businesses, even some

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Speaker 4: of the small businesses. I'm sure you saw a lot

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Speaker 4: of those small business owners who v whatever for Trump's

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Speaker 4: saying wait a second, like I wasn't ready for this.

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Speaker 4: I needed time to prepare for this. And what's really

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Speaker 4: frustrating and crazy about the whole program here is that

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Speaker 4: even if you buy Trump's case for tariffs, this is

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Speaker 4: just not the way you would actually do this. The

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Speaker 4: starts and stops ninety days. Now we're extending ninety days. Actually, no,

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Speaker 4: We're going to get this other deal. Tariffs and reindustrialization

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Speaker 4: and bringing manufacturing jobs back to this country is a

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Speaker 4: medium term project. Starting a new factory, rejigging your supply chains.

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Speaker 4: That is so complicated in such a heavy lift for small, medium,

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Speaker 4: and large businesses that you have to have a consistent

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Speaker 4: policy so they can make investment decisions based off of it.

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Speaker 4: If you and I we're going to launch a factory

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Speaker 4: in Ohio, we would not launch a factory based on

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Speaker 4: this current dynamic because we could have an entire situation

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Speaker 4: where if you'd premised your reindustrialization plans on what was

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Speaker 4: happening in February, March, in April, you could be totally

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Speaker 4: screwed right now, yeah, because wow, are those tariffs going

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Speaker 4: to be there? Is it going to make sense? Is

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Speaker 4: he going to get a big deal? And the last

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Speaker 4: part of here too is that, in many ways, the

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Speaker 4: big problem of his trade policies they're doing so many

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Speaker 4: different things at once. So on the one hand, the

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Speaker 4: tariffs could serve as a new form of revenue. They

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Speaker 4: could lead to like a income tax decreased. But if

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Speaker 4: we're actually decreasing the income tax and we're actually like

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Speaker 4: making money from this, then it's not going to reindustrialize

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Speaker 4: the country right right, So it doesn't really make sense.

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Speaker 4: And you really needed a different version of this administration

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Speaker 4: that actually took those three months to say we're doing

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Speaker 4: these five things. They make sense for this reason, and

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Speaker 4: we're going to stay strong on it.

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Speaker 3: And here's the other thing.

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Speaker 2: And guys, let's get ahead to a five, Like, if

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Speaker 2: your goal is reindustrializing the country, you're already failing. So

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Speaker 2: this usism manufacturing imports index fell to thirty nine point nine,

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Speaker 2: lowest level since two thousand and nine. COBEC letter says this,

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Speaker 2: we're saying two thousand and eight light contraction and manufacturing

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Speaker 2: imports as.

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Speaker 3: Tariffs take effect.

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Speaker 2: The overall measure of manufacturing is has been following month

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Speaker 2: after month after month. And the reality is Marshall like

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Speaker 2: the Biden industrial policy plus protectionism in certain key sectors

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Speaker 2: was actually working. Like for the first time in modern history,

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Speaker 2: we came out of a recession, the COVID recession, creating

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Speaker 2: more manufacturing jobs that we than we went in the history.

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Speaker 2: You know, in recent modern history, typically what happens is

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Speaker 2: there's a recession, manufacturing drops and it never comes back

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Speaker 2: right for a variety of reasons. And this was the

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Speaker 2: first time that they had bucked that trend. And when

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Speaker 2: you're talking about EV's when you're talking about battery production,

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Speaker 2: when you're talking about you know, green energy, when you're

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Speaker 2: talking about semiconductors. It was the policy was actually working

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Speaker 2: because you paired the protectionism with industrial policy. And that's

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Speaker 2: the piece that's completely missing here, is any sort of

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Speaker 2: a strategic direction. And at the same time, the parts

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Speaker 2: of that Biden policy, which I'm first to say it

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Speaker 2: was like inadequate and wor should be done and it

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Speaker 2: wasn't transformational for people in their daily lives, and you know,

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Speaker 2: and wasn't sold with all of those things. But the

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Speaker 2: parts that were actually working are also being attacked and

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Speaker 2: dismantled by a Trump administration which just you know, hates

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden, hates green energy, anything that's smacks of like liberalism,

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Speaker 2: like evs, you know, EV batteries, any sort of green energy.

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Speaker 2: They just want to destroy. And so they've taken a

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Speaker 2: chainsaw to those pieces, and you know, are actually destroying

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Speaker 2: the part of our industrial policy that was actually working.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the thing is, if Biden nomics, we should

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Speaker 4: think about it on two different levels. So level one

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Speaker 4: was like the political project, Biden's going to bring all

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Speaker 4: the jobs back, We're going to reindustrialize America from sort

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Speaker 4: of a center left perspective, that political project totally failed.

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Speaker 4: It didn't deliver. It didn't deliver fast enough. Like I

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Speaker 4: have a lot of like maga and laws, and like

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Speaker 4: if you tell them about like the actual policies that

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden pursued, they were like they are literally skeptical

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Speaker 4: and do not believe it was happening. But as you

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Speaker 4: didn't see this, there was lots of like really great

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Speaker 4: reporting on how despite the fact that they put a

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Speaker 4: lot of these jobs in red states and in purple

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Speaker 4: and swing states, it just wasn't actually felt on the ground.

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Speaker 4: So at a political level, it did not work. At

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Speaker 4: a policy level, I think what's been so frustrating about

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Speaker 4: covering this tariff topic is if you actually talk to

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Speaker 4: most people left right and center, what they will say is, wow,

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Speaker 4: we actually came to kind of a consensus after the

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Speaker 4: first Trump administration and the Biden administration. The Bio administration

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Speaker 4: could have jettisoned all of Trump's tariffs when they came

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one. They didn't, though they kept them

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Speaker 4: because they a bought into the idea that we couldn't

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Speaker 4: just treat China entering the world market as this like

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Speaker 4: chill thing that was going to work out for everybody

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Speaker 4: and magically keeped everyone's jobs together. They kept that part,

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Speaker 4: but then they once again added the government spending and

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Speaker 4: industrial policy site. So we found a mix that, to

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Speaker 4: your point, needed to be implemented better. So in a

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Speaker 4: better version of the Trump administration. To the point I

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Speaker 4: was saying earlier, you would have said, Okay, here's what

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Speaker 4: didn't work with the Biden approach. Here's what didn't work

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Speaker 4: far approach in the first term. Let's combine this into

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Speaker 4: a mix that actually builds us into something productive. And

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Speaker 4: and the key thing here, there was consensus in the

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Speaker 4: business community, in the labor with labor, and with policymakers

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Speaker 4: on the left and right around that mix. Jettising in

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Speaker 4: it just because it's like Bidenomics or because it's Biden

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Speaker 4: tied is like a huge disaster.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the China relationship a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: Can put a three up on the screen, so we

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Speaker 2: have an indication here Trump and she may talk very soon,

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Speaker 2: we'll see. In addition, this was the big news that

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Speaker 2: came out yesterday, but a three b up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: Trump has extended the China tariff, so pushing it off

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Speaker 2: into the future, allow war time for negotiation, pushing it

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Speaker 2: off till August thirty first, and then this was pretty

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Speaker 2: remarkable in terms of global impact on view of the

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Speaker 2: US since Trump has come back into office net favorability.

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Speaker 2: This is again global average net favorability. This is a

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Speaker 2: poll conducted by Morning Console the US. When Trump comes

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Speaker 2: into office, the view of the US falls off a

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Speaker 2: frickin cliff, and at the same time the view of

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Speaker 2: China has been significantly on the rise. So now you

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Speaker 2: have a positive, you know, almost nine point margin in

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Speaker 2: favor of China, and the US is underwater at minus

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Speaker 2: one point five, which is no surprise March twenty. You know,

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Speaker 2: again with the incoherence of the trade policy, it would

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Speaker 2: be one thing if you're like, we're going to specifically

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Speaker 2: focus on China, We're going to create a block of

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Speaker 2: our allies to you know, have some policy solidarity and

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Speaker 2: to try to isolate China. But instead they went to

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Speaker 2: war with the entire world, including like Canada and the

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Speaker 2: EU and countries that only have you know, places that

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Speaker 2: only have penguins and the whole thing. And so of

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Speaker 2: course much of the world is like screw you, like

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Speaker 2: what are you doing? So in that respect too, it

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Speaker 2: has been thoroughly counterproductive and is really strengthened China's hand

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Speaker 2: going into these trade negotiations.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and if I think the perfect so like two

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Speaker 4: examples here, So number one, like why we're replacing tariffs

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Speaker 4: on Madagascar, right, it actually does not make sense other

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Speaker 4: than the explanation we gave earlier that like Trump just

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Speaker 4: specifically does not like trade, and the kid Ben shows us.

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Speaker 4: So it's not just that like, hey, we have these

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Speaker 4: industries that really matter. Oh hey, we have this whole

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Speaker 4: part of the country that really relies on these jobs.

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Speaker 4: So we have to like balance the trade offs of

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Speaker 4: like cheap goods versus people actually having jobs here. No,

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Speaker 4: Trump just broadly is hostileal trade, which just blames why

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Speaker 4: we are doing a trade fight with Mexico, which explains

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Speaker 4: why we're doing a trade fight with Canada. And if

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Speaker 4: you talk to the Canadians specifically, you know, the Mexico

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Speaker 4: side of this thing has always been much more complicated

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Speaker 4: because you know, going back to like NAFTA in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen nineties and the Makuila Dories, like a lot of

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Speaker 4: jobs like went south. So I think people had within

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Speaker 4: their mental framework the idea that, Okay, the US and

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Speaker 4: Mexico are going to kind of have a hostile trade relationship,

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Speaker 4: and I think a dynamic where that is a fight

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Speaker 4: doesn't lead to that fall off of support for the

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Speaker 4: US in terms of these global polls. What the Canada

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Speaker 4: experience just revealed is just like a real lack of trust.

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Speaker 4: Like if you talk to Canadians about this, if you

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Speaker 4: talk to people across the kind of world, they would say, wait, like,

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Speaker 4: if they're just coming after us on this, why would

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Speaker 4: we assume they're trying to find the right deal for this?

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Speaker 4: Why is this about sort of us getting a good

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Speaker 4: deal with them, us getting something from you know, us

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Speaker 4: being Canadians. The Canadians they get something, Musk, we get

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Speaker 4: some of them. It's all just domestic politics.

435
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: Well, and not to mention, so in Trump's first administration,

436
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: he renegotiated NAVDA with Canada and Mexico.

437
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 3: So if you don't like.

438
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,919
Speaker 2: The deal that was struck, like you're the one who

439
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 2: struck that deal, buddy, So get to your point about trust,

440
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 2: Why should they expect that some new deal that they

441
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: would enter into this time around, would be upheld under

442
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: this Trump administration, under the next administration, whether it's Democratic

443
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 2: or Republican, like the word of these people is just

444
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 2: absolutely no good. Not to mention the just completely like

445
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,679
Speaker 2: chao and schizophrenic nature of how the tariffs are on

446
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 2: and off and they're up and they're down, and you know,

447
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:05,880
Speaker 2: he's chickening out and then.

448
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 3: He's all in on a day to day basis.

449
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 2: I am curious what do you make of the taco discourse,

450
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: because I'm actually a little bit skeptical to your point

451
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: about how Trump is like ideala, one thing that he

452
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 2: is ideologically committed to is tariffs. There and not to mention,

453
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 2: you know, if you had told people going into the

454
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 2: Trump administration that we would be at the level of

455
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 2: tariffs that we're at right now, and this is at

456
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 2: a time before you know, we get to July eighth

457
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 2: and he once again does like another Liberation Day announcement

458
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: or whatever that's going to be, people would be deeply

459
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 2: concerned about what that would mean for the economy because

460
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 2: it was an extraordinary increase. Even just the levels we're

461
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 2: at now are an extraordinary change and increase over where

462
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 2: we were previously so I'm a little bit I under

463
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: stand where it comes from, because he has backed off

464
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: the most maximalist positions of like one hundred and forty

465
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 2: five percent tariffs on China, which just completely ended trade

466
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 2: between giant in the US, which was completely insane. But

467
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 2: on the other hand, you know, I think it is

468
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 2: I think it would be foolish to understate where we

469
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 2: are and what he could potentially still.

470
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 3: Do in the future.

471
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that that's why the court cases

472
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 4: is really matter here too, because once again, if we're

473
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 4: going to understand, like what are the consistent parts of

474
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 4: Trump's politics and personality over the past fifty years, he's

475
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 4: a negotiator. Now if I am sitting in China, if

476
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 4: I'm sitting in the UK or the EEU right now,

477
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 4: I'm much less certain that Trump is operating with a

478
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 4: full deck of cards here when it comes to the

479
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 4: United States. Why is there And this is the danger

480
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,719
Speaker 4: of just sort of doing this, Hail Mary. We're going

481
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 4: to reconfigure the way we conceive of trade policy and

482
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 4: the trade policy with the administration to do versus actually Congress,

483
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 4: because if you get knocked down at the courts, even

484
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 4: though those are being caused by the pos Court. Right now,

485
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 4: why would China negotiate the other thing that really is

486
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 4: important to here too, And I want to go back

487
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 4: to the comment about how China's perception is going up,

488
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 4: is that the real problem that we're facing here is

489
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,199
Speaker 4: that we sort of root our approach to China in

490
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 4: sort of two different periods. So a lot of people

491
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 4: route their approach to China. In two thousand, we let

492
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 4: them into the wto. They're a low cost, cheap manufacturer.

493
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 4: They take a bunch of our jobs and not all

494
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 4: basically happens there. In exchange, we get cheap consumer goods.

495
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 4: That's one version of China. The second version of China

496
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 4: is the China the Trump face down during the late

497
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 4: twenty tens. We now in the year twenty twenty five

498
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 4: are facing a new China where they now have BYD

499
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 4: who are producing the best, the cheapest electric vehicles in

500
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 4: the world, and they are penetrating and the most advanced.

501
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 4: They are penetrating European and global markets. So if I'm

502
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 4: sitting in let's say Germany, or I'm sitting in an

503
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 4: East Asian country, and we see China delivering not just

504
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 4: oh competing for jobs of US, but actually delivering like

505
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 4: industrial first world technological advancement that the United States cannot

506
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 4: match right now. But also, weirdly enough, the Trump administration

507
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 4: says they're just totally uninterested in China looks really great

508
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 4: right now, Like that's just like the key role context.

509
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 4: You can't just treat China like it's the two thousands,

510
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 4: the twenty eighteen.

511
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 3: China, or even like the night.

512
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like sometimes Trump has this like

513
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties view of China almost that is completely out

514
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: of touch with where they are today. They made an

515
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: explicit government led plan to move up the value chain

516
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: and they've done it. You know, it's not the days

517
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: anymore of just like China stealing other companies IP and

518
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: using it to you know, create knockoff cheap versions of it.

519
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: Like they have their own very high tech advanced research

520
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: capabilities in some areas. To your point about BYD and evs,

521
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 2: they are out pacing the US. I think they're on

522
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: par in terms of AI development at the very least,

523
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: And so this is a very different China. Not to mention,

524
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 2: the trading dynamics have changed as well the US. If

525
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: you consider ossion as a block. The US is no

526
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 2: longer China's largest trading partner. They trade more with ossion

527
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: you have an entire rest of the world, So it

528
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: was easier for China to acquire more customers than it

529
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: is for the US to, you know, recurr all of

530
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: the supply lines and all of the manufacturing capability that

531
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 2: has been outsourced to China and other countries too, by

532
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: the way, over the years. And it always seemed to

533
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: me wild at the beginning of this that there was

534
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: so much confidence from the Trump administration that it would

535
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: be China that would have to come to them, and

536
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: China that would be in the more difficult political position

537
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 2: in terms of these trade dynamics, because that too, there

538
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: isn't public consensus around what Trump is doing, whereas in China,

539
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: because we're the instigators here who started this war, there

540
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: does appear to be a sort of rally around the

541
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: flag effect and a willingness to withstand whatever it is

542
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: the government policy in order to fight back against what

543
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: the US is doing to them.

544
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the case, there's been some really great reporting

545
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 4: from New York Times that I checked in on, So

546
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 4: it's not as if this is just all like a

547
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 4: total win for China. Like, the Chinese really depend on

548
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 4: being able to export goods the United States, so it's

549
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 4: not as if a trade war wouldn't be a disaster

550
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 4: for their own economy. But what the Chinese have explicitly

551
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 4: done since the last round of these wars back in

552
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 4: the twenty eighteen period, is they've made their economy more resilient.

553
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 4: They've prepped for this, They've set the national narrative. You

554
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 4: are not going to see Chinese aside from the politics

555
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 4: of it, you are not going to see Chinese small

556
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 4: business owners knocking on She's door saying this is a

557
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: disaster for us. This doesn't work. So they have set

558
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 4: the table to fight a actual trade war, and what

559
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 4: we have just literally not done. And I don't care

560
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: if you're on the right and you like object even

561
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 4: if you are on the right and think we need

562
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 4: to take a totally different approach to trade, it would

563
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 4: have taken multiple years of preparation to actually get our

564
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 4: economy to the point where we could stand off against China.

565
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 4: To your point, to the degree of which Trump wants

566
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 4: to trade off on. I want to also go to

567
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: LTINX comments about like national security, and that's why we

568
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 4: need to really do this. I hope no one takes

569
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 4: away the idea that you and I are dismissing the

570
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 4: idea of that there are national security concerns here. My

571
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 4: favorite topic on this is, like, we are incredibly dependent

572
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: on China for pharmaceuticals. It's a huge problem to huge risk.

573
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 4: This isn't just like a China Taiwan thing. This was

574
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 4: like a COVID thing. Like there are so many critical,

575
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 4: critical things that we're over dependent on China on and

576
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 4: in an era where we have to be ready for

577
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 4: supply chains to break at any any time. Once again,

578
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: separate from your views of war and peace, we need

579
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: to be more resilient in that category. The National Security

580
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 4: Emergency supports the argument that, Wow, we should really really

581
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 4: concentrate on these five specific areas. So once again, like

582
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 4: we really really really should have focused on semiconductors, which

583
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 4: is what the Bide administration is doing. Wow, even if

584
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: our pharmaceutical goods are cheaper because of the fact that

585
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: we get them from China, we can't be overly dependent

586
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 4: on any one country and all of the cost that's

587
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: happening right now. So if they'd come in and said, hey,

588
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 4: here are these five to ten areas, we're going to

589
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 4: hyper focus on them, and maybe if it turns out

590
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: that makes pharmaceutical drugs more expensive, because we're reassuring we'll

591
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 4: have some sort of subsidy or pursue some sort of

592
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 4: industrial policy for purpoceutical goods. That would have been met

593
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 4: not only with more policy consensus in this country. You

594
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 4: wouldn't see the courts fighting, you wouldn't see the the

595
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 4: you wouldn't see even Republicans, Republicans in Congress fighting. You

596
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 4: wouldn't see angry, angry town halls where Republican congressmen and

597
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 4: women cannot even articulate the case for this policy. That

598
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: would have been the right approach here.

599
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: That's a good transition into the next block.

600
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 2: Actually, because you know what I learned yesterday, Marshall, Ninety

601
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: percent of the drone industry is also in China.

602
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 3: And obviously we covered yesterday.

603
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: I will just put back up the images on the

604
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: screen and refresh everybody's memory.

605
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: Ukraine was able to.

606
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: Commit an extraordinary drone attack on far flung Russian air bases,

607
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: and it's not confirmed how many Russian warplanes they were

608
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: able to take out. The Ukrainians are saying over forty.

609
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: Of course the Russians are saying a lot less. There

610
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: hasn't been independent confirmation, but obviously a significant amount of

611
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: damage was done, and Marshall it was, you know, quite

612
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: an extraordinary operation. Zelensky says, this was eighteen months in

613
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: the making. They used it appears civilian supply chains, trucking

614
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: in these drones on large trucks, leaving parking them in

615
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: key positions. The drones were like hidden in the top

616
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: of these crates, and then at the appropriate time, the

617
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: crates were remote control opened and these little drones you

618
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: know that looked like toys, were able to go out

619
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: and to tremendous damage to the Russian air fleet. So

620
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: we've got some interesting ban In comments. But before we

621
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: get to that, since we didn't have you here yesterday,

622
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: just tell us sort of your overall view of the

623
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: significance of this operation.

624
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really shows a key way that the war

625
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 4: in Ukraine has changed in a way those toy different

626
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: from the Biden administration. So one of the big debates

627
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 4: within the Bided administration. The Biden administration as a fall

628
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 4: areas sort of found itself in this like middle where

629
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 4: basically no one was happy. Yeah, so there are always people,

630
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 4: sort of the more populous side who thought that the

631
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 4: Biden administration was escalating things in Ukraine and were way

632
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 4: too sort of in favor of Selensky's approach. The Hawks

633
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 4: were tit pissed because the US wasn't authorizing strikes in

634
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 4: to Russia. We wouldn't. We would say, hey, if we're going

635
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: to give you missiles, we're goinging you ammunition, ammunitions, you

636
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 4: cannot use them to strike Russia's potential nuclear accids. Because,

637
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 4: to build on your point, these weren't just like warplanes

638
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 4: like these were like Russia's like strategic that's right, strategic.

639
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: Bombers, nuclear bombers, some of which they're not really able

640
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: to produce anymore.

641
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 4: Apparently they're quite literally not able to produce. These These

642
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 4: are they've obviously been upgraded, but like the t U

643
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: ninety five is a Cold War relic, just in the

644
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 4: same way that our B fifty two is the airframe

645
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 4: first started in the nineteen fifties, same thing is true

646
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 4: of these planes. These are propeller driven bombers. They can

647
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 4: launch missiles. They've been launching missiles into Ukraine, but they

648
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: also can be used to drop launch nuclear weapons. So

649
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: the fact is now that Ukraine has this capability of

650
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 4: utilizing the druids the way they use them. This isn't

651
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 4: something that US control anymore. So it doesn't matter if

652
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 4: we're not sending the missiles to launch these types of strikes.

653
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: They have built their own drone industry. They've effectually become

654
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: in many ways, and this is kind of an overstatement,

655
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 4: but it gets to the point they've become a drone

656
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: suit power. This has really changed the way they could

657
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 4: approach and take this strategy. Another really interesting thing that

658
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 4: I learned too, and this is why we were speaking

659
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 4: earlierbout how we're entering in a really new era we

660
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 4: need to think differently. It should be noted all these

661
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 4: planes were out in the open. These were things that

662
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: people could see. That stems from the fact that ever

663
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 4: since the Cold War, it has been in a basic

664
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 4: rule that there's a degree of transparency with nuclear forces.

665
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 4: From a pure deterrence and awareness and safety perspective, it's

666
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 4: unclear that after this attack, any country of nuclear weapons

667
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 4: could afford to let their strategic bombers out in the open,

668
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 4: even if it means that previous nuclear limitations treaties required,

669
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 4: they'd be out in the open so we could monitor.

670
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 4: That was a very good thing. That's the type of

671
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 4: thing that you need to have in a cold war situation.

672
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 4: That's not sustainable anymore if you can get civilian drones

673
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 4: in or if you could convert civilian drones into military

674
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 4: use and then launch these attacks within the country.

675
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's I mean, that's absolutely right. And you

676
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: know you saw it also, the ability to use these

677
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: relatively small, relatively low tech, and easily accessible drones to

678
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: inflict significant damage. I mean, it really does level the

679
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: playing field of war fighting in a way that should

680
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: be very troubling to the US. You know, we see

681
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: it certainly here in Ukraine, where increasingly it is a

682
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: drone war where you have drones fighting against other drones.

683
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: You also saw it to a certain degree on October

684
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: seventh where Hamas. The first thing that they were able

685
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: to do was to take out the very high tech fence,

686
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: multi million dollar fence that Israel had built along the

687
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: Gaza border, including you know, automated machine guns and surveillance.

688
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: So they're able to take those out, and that's how

689
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: they're able to effectuate their attacks on October seventh. So,

690
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, this was a complicated operation that Ukraine was

691
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: able to pull off. The US claims they had no

692
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: idea this was coming out. Don't know whether that's true

693
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 2: or not. There would be some interest both from the

694
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: Ukrainians and the US if they did collactate to deny

695
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: that there was any sort of coordination or collaboration. So

696
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that's true or not. But this

697
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: was a complicated operation to pull off. At the same time,

698
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: the tech is very easily available and very low cost,

699
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: and so you know, obviously the reason for Zelensky to

700
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: do this at this particular point in time is because

701
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: there are peace talks ongoing. The general consensus is that

702
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: Russia is in a much stronger position than Ukraine is

703
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: because they have much more manpower and they might have

704
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: much more industrial might than the Ukrainians do. And so

705
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: this is an effort to say, look, this is not

706
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: you know, the playing field is more level than you think,

707
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: and we can inflict damage on you deep into your

708
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: territory that you know, and it doesn't require the assistance

709
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: of the United States of America to be able to

710
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: pull this off.

711
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, And The way to understand the Russian

712
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 4: position right now is there's some good reporting the Russians

713
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: are moving miles a day, They're sort of advancing into Denetsk.

714
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 4: And the thing is, if you're looking at the Ukrainian

715
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 4: position right now, all what the Ukrainians are basically trying

716
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 4: to do is just make clear of it. They are

717
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: in this for the long term, especially in a world

718
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 4: where they can no longer guarantee the United States is

719
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 4: going to have their back in the same way that

720
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,959
Speaker 4: the Biden administration did. I think obviously the Zelensky JD

721
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: events blow up at the White House was a disaster

722
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 4: on like fifteen different levels. But what I think it

723
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 4: really accomplished in a way that the Biden administration. I've

724
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 4: read all the report, I still don't understand why this

725
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 4: never happened. I think what the Oval Office blow up

726
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 4: forced the Ukrainians to finally reckon with is the idea

727
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 4: that they cannot take for granted that the United States

728
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 4: will supply them with intelligence, to apply them with weapons,

729
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 4: always have their back no matter what, always be pushing

730
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 4: for them to sort of get some sort of settlement

731
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 4: in the exact way it's most maximumly Ukrainian. What happened

732
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 4: this past weekend is what happens when Ukraine grows is

733
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 4: it has to be much more independent and be able

734
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 4: to actually back itself up without just begging the United

735
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 4: States for war.

736
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: So let's go ahead and take a listen to Steve

737
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: Bannon's reaction to this operation from the Ukrainians.

738
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 7: The White House has to condemn this immediately and pull

739
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 7: all support and tell Lindsey Graham come home.

740
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 6: Are we're gonna put you under a restaurant? You come home?

741
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 6: You're sterring it up.

742
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 7: Lindsey Graham's over there saying, hey, forget Trump, I got

743
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 7: the house in the Senate.

744
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 6: We're gonna we're gonna pass them.

745
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 7: You ever see something a couple of days, Remember that

746
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 7: he's sterning it up over there. He's telling me the

747
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 7: guy backing if they did not give us a heads

748
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 7: up on this all full stop and no minerals deal,

749
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 7: walk away from all of it, they're irresponsible and they're

750
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 7: dragging us into a kinetic third World war. As we

751
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 7: said us, we're getting dragged in now or the deep

752
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 7: State is driving us in there.

753
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 6: Either of these are not good.

754
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 7: Tulca Gabbert's gotta let us know, did anyone in an

755
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 7: intel at all have anything to do with this?

756
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 6: Did anybody have a heads up? Did anybody? And if not,

757
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 6: who the hell's running the Ukraine desk? Who's running the

758
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 6: Russia desk? Same thing with Ratcliffe.

759
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 7: This is why Cash and Bongino and Pam Bondi. You

760
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 7: got to clear out the deep state. This is he's

761
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 7: a ticking time bomb. And you see what they're going

762
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 7: to get us into because now we're now in exorably

763
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 7: we're being drawn into this.

764
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 6: If we didn't know about it.

765
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 7: The President to me has got to condemn it and

766
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 7: got to say we're not gonna give any more support

767
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 7: because these people cannot be trusted. You're supposed to be

768
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 7: in Turkey today talking peace, not three thousand miles into

769
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 7: Russia blown up their strategic bombers.

770
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: So what do you make of Bannon's position here and

771
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: and kind of the position he occupies in the party overall,

772
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: because you know he does this thing where he'll be

773
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: critical of certain things going on in the Trump administra.

774
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: It's never Trump's fault though, right, he's very critical of

775
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: Elon Musk, but it's not Trump's fault. He's very critical

776
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: of the direction that they're going in Ukraine. But you know,

777
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: it's it's the deep state, it's it never has anything

778
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: to do with actually the administration.

779
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the principal thing that a, I just

780
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 4: appreciate you noting how in many ways Steve Bannon is

781
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: a politician, and he asked if I can navigate that.

782
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 4: So here's here's the prime flaw here. So Trump and

783
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 4: Trump now claimed that his comment that he was getting

784
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: in the warn in Ukrain on day one was was castick.

785
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 4: I think that was not true at the time. I

786
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 4: think that really did reflect his sort of perspective that

787
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 4: Biden had bungled this among all the other things that

788
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 4: Biden bungled, and therefore you could have gotten a deal

789
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 4: like once Trump was actually there. If the US just

790
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 4: walks away from Ukraine and not just like walks away

791
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 4: in terms of like giving every single ammunition they asked for,

792
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 4: or like saying we're going to back some fort of

793
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 4: NATO or like EU membership, just actually walks away and

794
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 4: leaves the table. Russia isn't going to settle like. I

795
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 4: think it's very clear that Trump wants a settlement. I

796
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 4: think in certain ways the Ukrainians and the Russians wants

797
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 4: and eventual settlements. It's clearly neither side at this point

798
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 4: is getting their end goal right. Like it should be

799
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 4: noted that, like Putin, we should define his end goals.

800
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 4: Putin launched this war claiming that Ukraine was a delegitimized,

801
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 4: illegitimate Nazi state. Denoxification, debasification like this really should be

802
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 4: unders this really should be understood. Is Rusia's Iraq War

803
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 4: here in all of the disastrous ways that that metaphor

804
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: really matters here, Ukraine's going to exist. Ukraine is a name.

805
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 8: Now.

806
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 4: This war has forced Ukraine into a nation, So Putin

807
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 4: is not going to get that full maximust extent. The

808
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 4: Ukrainians are also not going to get because Trump has

809
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 4: been very clear in a way the Biden and people

810
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 4: were not clear. The US is not going to back

811
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 4: Ukraine until they take back every single inch of their territory.

812
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 4: So everyone is going to have to get some form

813
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 4: of settlement at some point. However, the issue though, is

814
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 4: if the US walks away and the US makes cover

815
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 4: and not going to back Ukraine at least or even

816
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 4: participate in the process, why would Putin stop from that perspective,

817
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: and that's the other reason why we should understand Ukraine's

818
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 4: need to launch an attack like this. Ukraine has to

819
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 4: launch an attack like this to make clear that they

820
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 4: are still in this, that this is serious. And even

821
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 4: if the Russians are going to take miles of territory

822
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: in eastern Ukraine, if they're going to slowly but surely

823
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 4: match march forward, even though things are sort of still

824
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 4: kind of stealmated, Russia isn't going to get its eventual

825
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 4: total aim. Therefore, you have to get to some form

826
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 4: of settlement.

827
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 8: Yeah.

828
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: Well, and I think this attack underscores why you need

829
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: some sort of a settlement, because, I mean, it is

830
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: a dangerous escalation, and you know, we do have to

831
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 2: be wary of the fact that Russia is a nuclear

832
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: arm superpower, and you know, Will Putin will be sensitive

833
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: to this attack, which is incredibly embarrassing and humiliating that

834
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: they were able to penetrate so deeply into Russian territory.

835
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: So I think it underscores the need for a settlement.

836
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest with you, I'm somewhat sympathetic

837
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: to the Trump administration here because I do think it

838
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: is such a mess and so difficult to untangle at

839
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: this point. You know, you're talking a little bit about

840
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 2: the Biden administration policy. In a lot of ways, it

841
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: really was the worst of all worlds because obviously they

842
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: short circuited and undercut the original peace talks, so there

843
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: wasn't pressure early on for some sort of a settlement.

844
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: I think that was a grave error, you know, underscoring

845
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: the fact that listen, there's no guarantees obviously that there

846
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: would have been an ability to have a resolution at

847
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: that point. But I've also become more sympathetic to the

848
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: sort of more hawkish faction that says, listen, you're just

849
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: letting them bleed out slowly rather than and over time

850
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: the Biden administration kept going, Okay, well you can't. You

851
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 2: can have these particular weapons. You can have the long riage,

852
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: all right, you can strike inside of Russia. So it's like, well,

853
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: if you were going to do that anyway, you may

854
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: as well have actually given them the tools to be

855
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 2: more successful earlier on, push for a piece and be

856
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 2: able to get some sort of a settlement that wouldn't

857
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: be a complete and total disaster for the Ukrainians. So

858
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: I do think that people who say that the Biden

859
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: administration policy was kind of the worst of all worlds

860
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: are absolutely correct. And at this point, it is a disastrous, brutal, bloody,

861
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: horrifying mess that lands in the lap of the Trump administration.

862
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: And I don't think that there is an easy resolution.

863
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: There's certainly not a resolution that is going to make

864
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: literally any side happy at this point.

865
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 4: And look, and because the stakes and this is you've

866
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 4: rerewly highlighted this, Because the stakes are nuclear, you cannot

867
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 4: have a situation where the US just walks away. This

868
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 4: isn't just another sort of Eurasian conflict. This isn't acerby

869
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 4: Jean versus Armenia. The stakes here are nuclear. The stakes here,

870
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 4: And I think if there's obviously you're not going to

871
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 4: have our disagreements about the Cold War and the different

872
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 4: ways that it went. But I think a key thing

873
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 4: that was achieved during the Cold War is that we

874
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 4: limited nuclear proliferation.

875
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: The world still exists, the world that you will still exist.

876
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 4: And because the stakes are nuclear in this case, a

877
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 4: a Russia that just thinks it has total impunity to

878
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 4: do whatever it wants about consequences the world where you

879
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 4: could see that type of escalation. I think part of

880
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 4: the reason why, and this is why I'll give like

881
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: a mild defense of the Biden administration. The reason why

882
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 4: they are hemming and highing and were never really finding

883
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 4: support from either sort of like the skeptics or the

884
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 4: hawks was that Jake Sullivan was terrified of nuclear conflict.

885
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 4: So the well maybe this, maybe that's to your point

886
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 4: they're saying, okay, no F sixteen's, okay F sixteens, no missiles,

887
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: Okay missiles was because they, I think, took very very

888
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 4: seriously the idea that Russia could potentially nuclear escalate. Russia didn't.

889
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: Russia was bluffing. Like the actual thresholds for what Russia

890
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 4: would say for Russia claim would lead to escalation were

891
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: passed years ago. So the Biden administration slowly, slowly, slowly

892
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: like dripped in. And I think we're probably over cautious

893
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 4: if we look at like the pure like what are

894
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 4: like the best possible world that could have came here.

895
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 4: But they start to really manage that. But once again,

896
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 4: they came to an uncomfortable, unpopular position because they're just

897
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 4: trying to manage a nuclear conflict and that is like

898
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 4: the primary thing. And once again Steve Bannon's position, I'd

899
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 4: be more sympathetic to that if once again this was

900
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 4: Azerbaijan versus Armania. The consequences of this war going the

901
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 4: r on direction our order. Maybe Poland gets a nuke,

902
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 4: Maybe other countries become convinced like, oh wow, like we're

903
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 4: all in it on our own. We can't be guaranteed

904
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 4: that the US or the EU or other powers or

905
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 4: have our backs. We need to get a nuke. Maybe

906
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 4: South Korea needs to get a nuke. I think just

907
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 4: tamping that down is why we have like an exit.

908
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 4: And here's the key thing too, And this is what

909
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 4: the Hawks did not do. US helping to bring this

910
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 4: conflict to an end does not mean Ukraine gets an

911
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 4: unlimited sort of amount of munitions or weapons. It doesn't.

912
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 4: And this is what the Bidomen efficient also did not do.

913
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 4: They should have made much clearer because they knew this

914
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 4: internally that the American people did not support a US

915
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 4: Ukraine policy that equaled they take back Crimea in every

916
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 4: single part of Eastern Ukraine. That was never the actual

917
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 4: in the administration consensus. What the American people want is

918
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 4: a situation where this war comes to an end and

919
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 4: Trump participating and negotiating and driving this process, him serving

920
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 4: as the third force that's pressing these two sides who

921
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 4: know in their heart of hearts they need to settle

922
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 4: in some ways, but our incentivized not to do it.

923
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 4: Like once again, more New York Times reported that I'll

924
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 4: shout out of breaking points, you know, space to the

925
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 4: mainstream media. Mainstream media has its actual functions. I'll pointed

926
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 4: out that part of what's driving Russia's unwillingness to take

927
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 4: the negotiation, and seriously, like they sent junior diplomats, not

928
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 4: serious senior level diplomats, is they're like, actually, we've got

929
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 4: a summer offensive. It's kind of moving. Let's take as

930
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 4: much territory as we can over Things slow down in

931
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 4: the winter. So that's really the situation that we're playing

932
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 4: with now.

933
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And the last week we can

934
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: put up on the screen here is before guys. So

935
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: there were negotiations yesterday. They were among low level delegations.

936
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: As Marshall was just gesturing towards Ukraine. Russia remain far

937
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: apart on ceasefire terms at these Istanbul talk apparently you

938
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 2: know they're they're nowhere really in the ballpark of any

939
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: sort of agreement. There was a prisoner swap that was

940
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: agreed to, but that's really all that came out of that. So,

941
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: you know, you have the the Ukrainians that were able

942
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: to pull off this dramatic, risky but quite you know,

943
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: damaging an effective attack within Russia. You have the Russians

944
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 2: who've been able to claim quite a bit of territory

945
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: actually just in the recent paths, and neither side really

946
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: looking to uh, really looking to bring it to a

947
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: close or you know, take the losses that would be

948
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: entailed in bringing this to some sort of a settlement.

949
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 3: In the near term.

950
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: All right, let's turn to the New York City mayoral race,

951
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: which has become much more interesting, I think than people expected.

952
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 3: It can put C three up on the screen.

953
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of contenders here, but the two that

954
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: are really in contention are former New York Government Governor

955
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo and Democratic Socialists Zoron Mamdani. So this looks

956
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: very complicated. This is a recent Emerson poll that can

957
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 2: came out. They do rank choice voting in New York City.

958
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: That's why you have all of these different rounds. But

959
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: the one that really matters is if you look all

960
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: the way to the tenth round, you've got Cuomo coming

961
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: in at fifty four, so we're still winning, but his

962
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: edge has significantly declined, and nipping at his heels at

963
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: this point is Zoron Mamdani at forty six percent. So

964
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: we definitely have ourselves a race here. You know, mum

965
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 2: Donni obviously not enjoying the vast name recognition that Cuomo

966
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 2: has in the establishment backing, et cetera, really been an

967
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: upstart Marshall. There's some indications that even he and his

968
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 2: campaign were not expecting him to have this much traction

969
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: in this race. And so we've got a couple of

970
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:41,959
Speaker 2: clips of Zoron that we can play here in a minute,

971
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: but just wanted to get your reaction off the top

972
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: of some of the dynamics that you see unfolding here.

973
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, so several things here, I think, so, and we'll

974
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 4: get into this Zoron. What I love about this race

975
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 4: that that's sort of like a microcosm of all of

976
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 4: the challenges facing the Democratic Party as we like look forward.

977
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 4: So you have an aging, sort of like unattractive, establishment

978
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 4: centrist candidate who doesn't really stand for anything, Like I

979
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 4: genuinely do not know if you said to me, Marshall,

980
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 4: like what is Andrew Coomo running on beyond just like

981
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 4: post me to redemption, I could actually like not articulate

982
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 4: that for you, and I don't think most people can. Versus,

983
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 4: Zoran clearly believes in things, and I think is being

984
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 4: really responsive. He's really great social media. He's also bringing

985
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 4: the suit back. This is where I will speak for Sager.

986
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 4: I think he looks so great in his suit, and

987
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: I think that hopefully he can move us past like

988
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 4: the very condescending era of like politicians like dressing down

989
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 4: sort of act like they're like fake and that sort

990
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 4: of with it. So like maybe there's a fashion trend.

991
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 4: We could do a breaking point spin off on those

992
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 4: cultural things. But I think so really, but that's the

993
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 4: but here's the problem for Zoran though he's still underperforming

994
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 4: with like over forty black voters, Like that's the central

995
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 4: So if the central challenge for centrism is it's like

996
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 4: central casting problem, the challenge for democratic socialism and Zoran

997
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 4: is just the fact that like with like black and

998
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: like Hispanic working past voters, just a real amount of

999
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 4: skepticism about the project.

1000
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 2: So I want to talk more about that. Let's go

1001
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: ahead and put C four up on the screen, just

1002
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 2: to underscore what Marshall is saying here about what the

1003
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: various coalitions are. Coloma's strongest support comes from black voters

1004
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: at seventy four percent, older voters over fifty at sixty six.

1005
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: Percent, And this one kills me.

1006
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: Women really guys fifty eight percent to forty two percent.

1007
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 2: Mom Donnie leads among voters under fifty with sixty one percent,

1008
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 2: holds an edge among white voters fifty seven to forty three,

1009
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: and college educated voters fifty eight to forty two. So

1010
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: it's the exact opposite of the coalition that he would,

1011
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: you know, claims to speak to, and that his agenda

1012
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: is really crafted to attempt to appeal to. Before we

1013
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: talk a little bit more about that, because I do

1014
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: want to dig in on that piece. He was on

1015
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: MSNBC recently and I thought was asked a good series

1016
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: of questions about his platform and especially about the critique

1017
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: of like, yeah, you know, you're really too far left

1018
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: to appeal to be able to govern effectively. There's a

1019
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: concern within the establishment quarters of the Democratic Party that

1020
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: what's gone wrong with the party is that it's gone

1021
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 2: too far left. Obviously I have my disagreements with that,

1022
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: but is an important question ask let's go and take

1023
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 2: a listen to how Zorun responded.

1024
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 9: What New Yorkers deserve is a plan that actually speaks

1025
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 9: to the crisis in their lives, and affordability is the

1026
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 9: number one crisis. So we're going to freeze the rent

1027
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 9: for more than two million New Yorkers live in rent

1028
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 9: stabilized housing. We're going to make the slowest buses in

1029
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 9: the nation fast and free. And we're going to deliver

1030
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 9: universal childcare to each and every New Yorker, whether their

1031
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 9: child is six weeks or five years of age, because

1032
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 9: today childcare is the number two reason people are leaving

1033
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 9: our city, and it makes sense. It costs twenty five

1034
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 9: thousand dollars a year to raise a kid here, which

1035
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 9: is more money than it would cost to send that

1036
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 9: same kid to Quney eighteen years later.

1037
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 10: What do you say, though, to Democrats who look at

1038
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 10: what we saw in November with Vice President Harris losing,

1039
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 10: and a lot of the postgame analysis, if you will,

1040
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:47,959
Speaker 10: was the party had moved too far to the left

1041
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 10: that it was actually time to come back to the

1042
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 10: center a little bit, to connect to a lot of

1043
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 10: those working class, blue collar voters who have broken for

1044
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 10: Trump in recent cycles. That seems to be what Governor

1045
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 10: Cuomo is saying. You say to people who say, well,

1046
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 10: I like the guy, but he's not right for this moment,

1047
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 10: he's too lefty.

1048
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 9: Well, you know, I think we as politicians need to

1049
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 9: lecture less and listen more. And when we saw New

1050
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 9: York have the greatest swing towards Trump in the entire

1051
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 9: nation eleven and a half points, we saw that it

1052
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 9: took place in the hearts of immigrant New York. And

1053
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 9: so I went there to Fordham Road in the Bronx

1054
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 9: Hillside Avenue in Queens. I asked those voters why did

1055
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 9: they vote for him, and they told me they remembered

1056
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 9: having more money in their pocket four years ago. I

1057
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 9: asked them what it would take to bring them back

1058
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 9: to the Democratic Party. They said, a relentless focus on

1059
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 9: an economic agenda. And when I told them my plan

1060
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 9: to freeze the rent, make buses fast, and free deliver

1061
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 9: universal childcare, they said that they would vote for me.

1062
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 9: And I think ultimately that's what we need, is a

1063
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 9: recognition that for too long, our party has moved away

1064
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 9: from working class voters. It's time we actually bring them back.

1065
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: So I personally think that's a great answer because he

1066
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: reframes it as not just like a where are you

1067
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 2: on the left right ideological access, but hey, we need

1068
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: to deliver for people in cost of living? Is this,

1069
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 2: you know, crushing burden, especially in a city like New York.

1070
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: And so here are the really super concrete ways that

1071
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to make life a little bit

1072
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: easier for working class voters.

1073
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 3: What did you think of how he responded, Yeah.

1074
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 4: I know it's really funny because if and this is

1075
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 4: why I'm just really down on Cuomo as a candidate.

1076
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 4: If you think of like what the best version of

1077
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 4: like the centrist, pragmatic, technocratic prinches is just like, look

1078
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 4: forget the lofty stuff. People aren't trying to have a

1079
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 4: big ideological debate about socialism or liberalism or whatever. They

1080
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 4: just like are trying to put food on the table,

1081
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 4: and they care about things. So Zoran is given just

1082
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 4: like a perfect like, hey, life's expensive, rent control, life's expensive.

1083
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 4: We're going to focus on like housing and those other issues.

1084
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 4: In childcare. I just had a kid, myself, and even

1085
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 4: in the Texas suburbs, it is incredibly expensive. I cannot

1086
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 4: imagine how expensive it is in New York right now.

1087
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 4: So it's just wild to me that Cuomo and his

1088
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 4: team I think it's because they were asleep at the

1089
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 4: wheel allowed themselves for Culoma to take like the general

1090
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 4: like rhetorical attack of what centrist moderate candidate is and

1091
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 4: just like bring it that way. Like I think that

1092
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 4: their worst sort of DSA candidates come off like they

1093
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 4: and this is the diploma divide that center were of politics.

1094
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 4: Too many DSA candidates come off like they're sort of

1095
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 4: like campus organizers or they're sort of in academia and

1096
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 4: they're having this big debate about worker power versus. I

1097
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 4: don't think that means anything to most people. Zora was

1098
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 4: just like this, this and that. Yeah, Cloma hasn't responded

1099
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 4: to it, and I, you know, you know, since my

1100
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 4: politics is more to the center here, like I have

1101
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 4: like qualms and concerns about like rent controlling those different issues.

1102
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 4: But it's just like really frustrating that like if and

1103
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 4: if you're actually kind of this is kind of what

1104
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 4: we want politics to look like, we actually want politics

1105
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 4: not to just be like a you're a socialist, Well

1106
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 4: you were a me too, monster Like that's like very

1107
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 4: destructive and unhelpful. I love how Zoran has brought policies

1108
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 4: to the table when I wish we had a politics

1109
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 4: where Cuoma could say, hey, rent control, I get why

1110
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 4: you're doing it, here's why it doesn't work. Here is

1111
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,800
Speaker 4: my actual plan. The lack of that Onquoulos side is

1112
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 4: a huge problem. And then the other big issue I

1113
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 4: want to respond to the comment about didn't voters perceive

1114
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 4: like Kamala Harris is being too left? And you know

1115
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 4: this is a left to yourself. Of the big issues

1116
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,399
Speaker 4: facing the American left right now is when voters say

1117
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 4: the left broadly, they conflate like a bunch of different things.

1118
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 4: So the left doesn't just mean rent control, minimum wage increases,

1119
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 4: universal healthcare, things that pull really really popularly. It also

1120
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 4: means certain positions on crime and immigration, especially with working

1121
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 4: class voters. There are a lot of working class voters

1122
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 4: who want the minimum wage to be higher, but also

1123
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 4: are skeptical of like democratic approaches to crime, especially in

1124
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 4: a post twenty twenty one era. There are a bunch

1125
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 4: of people, the voters who he's going to speak with

1126
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 4: who are going to say we support economic populism, but

1127
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 4: actually we're really worried about like migration in the ways

1128
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 4: that it's like overstrained the city and its resources. So

1129
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 4: I think the thing that Zaron is really getting out here,

1130
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 4: and this is why he's not talking about the cultural

1131
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 4: issues as much, is he's focusing on that part of

1132
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 4: the left another thing, and this is just like so fascinating.

1133
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 4: This is the type of thing which centrist and my

1134
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 4: sort of can't need to really reckon with. We're assessing,

1135
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 4: you know, Kamala Harris's campaign obviously in the wake of

1136
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 4: Original Sin, but it was revealed that her most popular

1137
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 4: ads had to deal with building more housing mm hm

1138
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 4: and cracking down on landlords. Those messages actually broke through.

1139
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 4: So I think the problem was sort of like the

1140
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 4: left camp that like Zoran is there to engage with,

1141
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 4: they are a little unfocused on like the building more

1142
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 4: housing part. Like this Zuri politics are kind of the

1143
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 4: mb Rent control is effect for people who have housing

1144
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 4: right now, but what are the people who don't have housing?

1145
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 4: It's it's not a full spectrum approach, and housing policy

1146
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 4: actually requires that we do a bunch of things at once,

1147
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 4: but once again Zorn is speaking to an environment where

1148
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 4: people saying they don't like the left, but Kamala Harrison's

1149
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 4: most popular policies are a weird mix of like centrist

1150
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 4: the mbiism, but like left oriented landlord punching.

1151
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah no, I mean my politics are the center of

1152
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: the policy conversation and the center of the political narrative

1153
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,879
Speaker 2: that should be pushed by you know, by the left

1154
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: and by Democrats. More broadly, focus is on economic populism,

1155
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 2: where you have the impeding like Trump has this narrative

1156
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: about immigrants are ruining the country, trans people are ruining

1157
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 2: the country, cultural elites, college educated women, they're destroying your life,

1158
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: ruining the country, destroying your.

1159
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:09,479
Speaker 3: Communities, et cetera.

1160
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 2: And Democrats basically don't have a consistent coherent story of

1161
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,919
Speaker 2: what has gone wrong in the country, What has gone

1162
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: wrong that led to your life being difficult, What has

1163
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: gone wrong that led to the rise of Trump, that

1164
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 2: led to the rerise of Trump. They have not really

1165
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: had a coherent storyline about that. And you know this

1166
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 2: will we'll get into this more in the abundance discussion.

1167
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: But the story that resonates with the majority vast majority

1168
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: of Democrats and vast majority of independence and majority overall

1169
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: of the American people. Is the reason life has gotten

1170
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: difficult is because you have a bunch of greedy billionaires

1171
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 2: who have rigged the system and we're effectively incompatible with democracy.

1172
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 2: And I think that's just you know, with the rise

1173
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 2: of Elon Musk and what we've seen in this administration,

1174
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: they've sort of made the case that the acceleration of

1175
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: oligarchy truly does represent both a democratic threat and an

1176
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 2: economic threat to people overall. So, you know, that's why

1177
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: this conversation about you know, well, should should we like

1178
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: throw the trans people overboard or should we throw the

1179
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: immigrants overboard? I think sort of misses the point because

1180
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 2: the reason those issues were made so salient and so

1181
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 2: effectively by Trump is because they fit into his narrative

1182
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 2: of what had gone wrong in the country. The reason

1183
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 2: why Democrats were unable to stand up to those narratives

1184
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: is because they didn't have their own story and theory

1185
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: of the case of what had gone wrong that made

1186
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 2: any kind of sense to people. So that's sort of

1187
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 2: my view of why that conversation really misses the mark.

1188
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: I mean, if you think about this is what always

1189
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: strives to crazy. Like if you think about polling the

1190
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 2: comments that Trump has made and the things that he

1191
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: has done, including things like, you know, you want to

1192
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: talk about crime and safety and policing whatever, Like he

1193
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: pardoned all the violent January sixers who beat up a

1194
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,280
Speaker 2: bunch of cops. It pulls it like five percent support.

1195
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 2: Even one of the January six ers was like, I

1196
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 2: don't even.

1197
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 3: Want this pard and I broke the law. I shouldn't

1198
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 3: be forgiven for it.

1199
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: So, you know, that's where I get frustrated with some

1200
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 2: of the conversation around, like let's just pull out what

1201
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: the right positions are and let's just locate ourselves on

1202
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: the ideological spectrum.

1203
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 3: Number one.

1204
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: It ignores the fact that people's minds can be changed,

1205
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: as they obviously you know, have been on a variety

1206
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,320
Speaker 2: of issues over time. It also ignores the fact that

1207
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:29,879
Speaker 2: Trump won while holding some like insanely unpopular positions. Why

1208
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 2: because he had a compelling, wrong, evil crule in my

1209
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: opinion storyline, but that rang is true to people and

1210
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 2: sort of hung together as a narrative.

1211
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I said earlier, I didn't re understand the

1212
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 4: rationale for Cuomo's candidacy, but like in your comments you

1213
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 4: kind of revealed it, like Cuomo's candidacy was really was

1214
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 4: really premised on this November December, January vibe shift where like,

1215
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 4: oh wow, like Democrats overreached in so many different ways.

1216
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 4: We overreached on me too, in the sense that like

1217
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 4: young men are incredibly skeptical imat, we overreached on immigration,

1218
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 4: we overreach on LGBTQ rights. It it I think makes

1219
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 4: sense to look at a bunch of policy issues that

1220
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,720
Speaker 4: when I think the DEVI has to defer over reaching

1221
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 4: those categories. But if you really understand what's being said there,

1222
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 4: it's incredibly defensive, right. It's basically this theory of the

1223
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 4: way we come back into power is by recognizing where

1224
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 4: we overreach and basically either explaining or not explaining why

1225
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 4: our position is different. I think that's needed in a

1226
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 4: bunch of cases, especially where those positions like lost trust,

1227
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 4: like I think Biden's immigration policy really damage the party's

1228
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 4: long term trust with like these same like working class

1229
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 4: black and Hispanic voters who like Zorin is really speaking to,

1230
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 4: So that has to be acknowledged. But what Centrist did

1231
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 4: not do, and I say this is the person who

1232
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 4: is more of in decently centrist coded is they didn't

1233
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 4: actually focus on what does the offense look like? So okay,

1234
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 4: we need to get a more moderator, or not even

1235
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 4: moderate in the sense of like we're just moving the

1236
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 4: chessboard pieces around. But like I love zorro UN's quote,

1237
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 4: listen to voters. Let's listen to what voters are actually

1238
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: saying on socio cultural issues and have an agenda's response

1239
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 4: to the step one. But step two is also what

1240
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 4: else are they also saying that requires us to have

1241
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 4: something to say. So Cuomo was ready to basically just say, hey,

1242
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 4: I'm the research and center left. Everything that's gonna be normal,

1243
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 4: and twenty nineteen, again that wasn't enough when people were

1244
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 4: facing an affordability and housing crisis.

1245
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: Well, and not only that, it's very convenient for a Cuomo,

1246
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: who is an establishment politician who is very closely aligned

1247
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 2: with business interest and you know, interests of the wealthy

1248
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: in New York City, and you know that comes out

1249
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: in is a rhetoric, et cetera.

1250
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 3: It's very convenient for.

1251
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 2: Him to say, well, the parts of the agenda that

1252
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: don't threaten wealthy interests, those are the parts that we

1253
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: can dispatch with, and that's going to enable me to

1254
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: keep together, you know, my wealthy donor base and make

1255
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 2: sure that there's nothing that infringes on the things that

1256
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 2: they want to do. And I think we saw a

1257
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 2: lot of that coming out of Trump's reelect, where there

1258
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: was an immediate effort to basically do the things that

1259
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 2: are easy in terms from a sort of like wealthy

1260
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: donor perspective, and not analyze any of the failings on

1261
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: the like you know, economic populist front and in the

1262
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 2: areas that you know would be more challenging and uncomfortable

1263
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: for some of those alliances with mainstream democratic politicians. I

1264
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 2: do want to go back to THO because I'm curious

1265
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 2: your view of, you know, the demographics that we put

1266
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: up earlier. There was all kinds of conversation during Bernie

1267
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen and again in Bernie twenty twenty about the

1268
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 2: nature and demographics of his coalition, and I think, you know,

1269
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 2: parts of that were always really unfair because it was

1270
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: very much stereotyped as like it's just a bunch of

1271
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: white bros. Well, now that the white bros have shifted

1272
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: to the right, the Democrats would very much like to

1273
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: get those white bros back, But it was also never

1274
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: truly representative of what his coalition was. Bernie did have

1275
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: a largely working class coalition. His his greatest weakness with

1276
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 2: older black voters, and I think we can talk about

1277
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 2: why that is. It's now increasingly apparent that that's not

1278
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: a Bernie Sanders weakness, that is a left weakness in general,

1279
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 2: as evidenced by you know, Zorn and as evidenced by

1280
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 2: any number of other you know, sort of left progressive

1281
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 2: DSA type candidates. But you know, he had a it

1282
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 2: was a diverse working class base, including Latinos in particular,

1283
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: and certainly among young people. And that generational divide is

1284
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 2: important as well, because the stereotype was always like, oh,

1285
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,439
Speaker 2: black people just don't like Bernie Sanders. If you looked

1286
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 2: at young black people, that was not the case. You know,

1287
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 2: he had a very diverse coalition among young people. So

1288
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: why do you think it is that the left consistently

1289
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 2: struggles with older black voters in particular seemed to be

1290
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: the greatest sort of challenge point for you know, for

1291
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: people who have a DSA style ideology.

1292
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 4: So yeah, so I think a we should understand that

1293
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 4: there's a policy pitch and there's a political pitch and

1294
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 4: a lot of what when I talked to sort of

1295
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 4: like you know, when we used to do Breaking Points

1296
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 4: live show, Like when we actually would talk to people

1297
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 4: who were attracted to these sort of ideas. Yeah, they're

1298
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 4: really attracted to like the anti Democratic Party, anti status

1299
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 4: quo part of the Bernie pitch. It wasn't talk to people.

1300
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 4: They'd say, yeah, I like universal health care, Yeah I

1301
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 4: want Medicare for all, Yeah, I want them minium wage increases, etcetera, etcetera,

1302
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 4: et cetera. They would say those things, but like what

1303
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 4: was really animating them was just a deep distrust and

1304
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 4: not just distrust, but deep dislike of center establishment politics.

1305
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 4: These are people who came of age after nine to eleven,

1306
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 4: after the two thousand and financial crisis, right after twenty sixteen,

1307
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 4: after COVID. There is very little to no reason why

1308
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 4: people should trust if you grew up in that environment

1309
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 4: the center. If you're looking to order black voters who

1310
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 4: are rooted in the civil rights there, who are rooted

1311
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 4: in a different era of the American political system, that

1312
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 4: appeal of like, don't you just hate these old bums

1313
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 4: who just like screw everything up that just is not

1314
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 4: going to resound as well. So I think it's particularly

1315
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 4: attractive of the way that Zorin's approaching this is he's

1316
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 4: making this much less of a establishment versus anti establishment

1317
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 4: pitch though like it's obviously there and more just I'm

1318
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 4: going to go down the line and find the positions

1319
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 4: that you actually agree with and you were actually thinking about.

1320
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 4: So this is also another broader and there's a there's

1321
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 4: a warning here two min all offer at the end

1322
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 4: of this, but there's also a broder lesson here for

1323
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 4: the left, which is that, like you know, my takeaways,

1324
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 4: I'm actually thinking that like city issues and municipalities are

1325
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 4: probably a better fit for left politics right in this

1326
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 4: immediate most So, like you know, if you figure out

1327
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 4: it this way, like what is the central challenge that

1328
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 4: like centrists like to say to like leftist who say

1329
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 4: they want to take other political system they say, like, okay, cool,

1330
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 4: then like flip a red state or flip a purple state,

1331
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 4: or when a congressional district the same way that we're

1332
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 4: doing right now. It's a tall order and it is

1333
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 4: and I think it's a real serious challenge that left

1334
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 4: politics needs to really answer. And the thing is, though,

1335
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 4: if we're actually looking at like these actual cities, we

1336
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 4: look at the combination of policies and political dynamics that

1337
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 4: are better suited to the local rather than like the

1338
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 4: national wise dynamics. Sara's not having soon. It's not having

1339
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 4: to debate LGBTQ people. He's not debating immigration policy. He's

1340
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 4: talking about specific city issues. The warning though for the

1341
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 4: progressive left though is Chicago and Brandon Johnson, because the

1342
01:02:58,120 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 4: in this is we'll get into this during the abundance

1343
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 4: a conversation. I think a problem the left has yet

1344
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 4: to reconcile is that it's one thing to run successful campaigns,

1345
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 4: to put together narratives that I think are clearly like

1346
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 4: winning the long term narrative war, and actually governed. So

1347
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 4: he could say we're going to make buses fast and

1348
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 4: free so that during the clip, okay, can you actually

1349
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 4: do that? And okay, we're going to impose rent control,

1350
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 4: But if you don't actually make more housing over more people,

1351
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 4: if that's what we're going to help people who I

1352
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 4: kind of have theirs, what are you actually going to

1353
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 4: do when these actual challenges come in?

1354
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 6: Okay?

1355
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 4: Cool. You're going to do paid Sicklyave. That's really great.

1356
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 4: How I know this is usually a cent for stunk,

1357
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 4: but it really matters in like city and states where

1358
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 4: the budget is actually constrained and where voters also do

1359
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 4: not want tax increases. How are you actually going to

1360
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 4: pay for this program and make it actually work? Brandon

1361
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 4: Johnson's one of the least the mayor of Chicago is

1362
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 4: one of the least popular politicians in America because he

1363
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 4: campaigned on these sets of issues, but he did not

1364
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 4: have the talent, the coalition, the ability to actually get

1365
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 4: it done. So that the warning for the left.

1366
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 3: I think that's fair. But I also would say that

1367
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:04,720
Speaker 3: the left always has.

1368
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: To answer for any politician on the left who doesn't deliver,

1369
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 2: but like the center never has to answer for Gavin

1370
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: Newsom or Kathy Hokle, who's you know, pretty profoundly unpopular.

1371
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 2: And I would also say that the most popular Democratic

1372
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 2: governor in the country is any Bushier in Kentucky, who

1373
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 2: may not be DSA, but he is an economic populist.

1374
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I used to live in Kentucky,

1375
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 2: have followed I know him a little bit, and I've

1376
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 2: followed his career and his pitch very closely. And I

1377
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,320
Speaker 2: still talk to people in Kentucky about what it is

1378
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 2: about him that's really resonating there. And it's not because

1379
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 2: he you know, did a hard right turn on any

1380
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: particular issue. He stood up for transparently close churches during COVID,

1381
01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 2: you know, he went all in on, like, you know,

1382
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 2: protecting people from the disease. But there are two things

1383
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 2: that people mentioned to me. Number one is just that

1384
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 2: he is hyper accessible. During COVID, he was doing like

1385
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 2: weekly certainly and maybe daylight briefings where he would just

1386
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 2: go out and talk to people in this way that

1387
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 2: was felt very approachable.

1388
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 3: And like you actually had a direct line to him.

1389
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 2: In number two, you know, his pitch has been on healthcare, education,

1390
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 2: and good union jobs. And he's brought a lot of

1391
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 2: good union jobs. Some of that came from the Biden

1392
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 2: administration into the state of Kentucky, and so he really

1393
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: has sort of delivered on this economic populist message. So

1394
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 2: I would put him up as proof that that general direction,

1395
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 2: when executed effectively, is highly successful, both in terms of

1396
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: the policy and in terms of the politics. You know,

1397
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,240
Speaker 2: if you also look at congressional districts across the country.

1398
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 2: A lot of the candidates that have overperformed they may

1399
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 2: not be you know, exactly Bernie Sanders, but they have

1400
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 2: really featured a challenge of corporate power in their messaging

1401
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 2: and have used that to consistently outperform you know, the

1402
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 2: top of the ticket. So I do think that there

1403
01:05:59,920 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 2: is plenty to suggest electorally that there's a lot there.

1404
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 2: But you know, to your point, obviously, it has to

1405
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 2: be competently executed, and at the city level, especially when

1406
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: you're talking about you know, any sort of executive position,

1407
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 2: it has to be competently executed because at the end

1408
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 2: of the day, it's like did the trash get picked

1409
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 2: up or did it not get picked Did the snow

1410
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 2: get removed or did it not get removed. One thing

1411
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 2: I want in this will helps transition more into the

1412
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: abundance conversation is that one thing that's interesting to me

1413
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 2: about Zoron and this actually isn't unusual on the left.

1414
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 2: Oftentimes the left does focus on issues like zoning reform

1415
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 2: and some of the things that are you know, considered

1416
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 2: to be abundance policy. He has not only gone leaned

1417
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: into those more like DSA policies like the rent freeze

1418
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 2: and the free busts and those sorts of things. He

1419
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 2: also has made an explicit focus of zoning regulations of

1420
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:55,439
Speaker 2: you know, streamlining bureaucracy for small businesses. He's talked about,

1421
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:57,479
Speaker 2: you know, some of these things that are like single

1422
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: staircase reform and some of the things that are like

1423
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 2: core the abundance movement and the zoning reform movement. More broadly,

1424
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and take a listen to this ad

1425
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 2: that he cut about small business in particular.

1426
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 9: There's a lot of things that make New York City

1427
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 9: special for me. It's the delis in Bodegas. Hopey be,

1428
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 9: could I get an egg and cheese on a roll

1429
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 9: with jalapeno ones don't want especially coming up. Small businesses

1430
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 9: employed nearly half of all New Yorkers in the private sector.

1431
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 11: They keep the city running.

1432
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 9: But the last four years have been hard. We've seen

1433
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 9: the dollar slice go extinct, storefront after storefront close and

1434
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 9: had a mayor and Eric Adams who has ignored the

1435
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 9: struggles of small businesses. That's why it is Mayor, I'm

1436
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 9: going to make it faster, easier, and cheaper for small

1437
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 9: businesses to get started and stay open. First, we're going

1438
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 9: to cut fines and fees for small businesses by fifty percent.

1439
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 9: Regulations are important, but small businesses have to navigate more

1440
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 9: than six thousand of them with far fewer resources than

1441
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 9: the big chains. That's why is Mayor, I'll appoint a

1442
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 9: mom and popzar with the clear goal of making it

1443
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 9: easier to run a small business. One thousand dollars isn't

1444
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 9: a lot to our city government, but it can be

1445
01:07:57,960 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 9: make or break for a small business trying to get

1446
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 9: off the ground. Next, we're going to the mom and

1447
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 9: pops are will coordinate with agencies to speed up turnaround times,

1448
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 9: cut rent tape, and letting Yorker start businesses soon because

1449
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 9: you shouldn't have to fill out twenty four forms and

1450
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 9: go through seven agencies to start a barbershop. But most

1451
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 9: of all, we're putting our money where our mouth is

1452
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 9: by increasing funding for small business support programs with five

1453
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 9: hundred percent. We're going to invest twenty million dollars in

1454
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 9: our business express service teams.

1455
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 2: So very abundancy messaging. I would say, you know, what

1456
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 2: do you what do you think of the pairing of

1457
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,799
Speaker 2: the you know, the rent control, the free public transit

1458
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 2: and some of those other policies alongside the zoning reform,

1459
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 2: the cutting red tape and the kind of like abundance

1460
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:41,759
Speaker 2: suite of policy options.

1461
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, I think you are going to talk with

1462
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 4: this later. But as someone in the Abundance camp who's

1463
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 4: probably done more speaking with the left than like anyone

1464
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 4: else in that broad coalition, Yeah, what I keep hearing

1465
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 4: is obviously there's like the ang for your like Twitter

1466
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 4: discourse and they're all like the negative reviews. But when

1467
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 4: I talk to people in the know who I would

1468
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 4: take seriously, they're like, look, Abundance at its best has

1469
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 4: pointed out some real problems, and we'd like to get

1470
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 4: to a yes and from a progressive perspective that doesn't

1471
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 4: just treat us as these people to be left punched,

1472
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 4: but like a broader conversation, because like this is like

1473
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 4: I'm really interested in, like UK politics. I always like

1474
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 4: to think of American politics in a sense of like coalitions,

1475
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 4: Like this is a coalition, And if a coalition is

1476
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:22,479
Speaker 4: going to be like fifty plus one and actually have

1477
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 4: a governing majority, it has to take everyone's different perspectives

1478
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 4: of mine too. So I really think that like the

1479
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 4: best version of the abundance agenda is going to be

1480
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 4: a set of policies that a politician like so around

1481
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 4: kid likes take and leave. This is good, this is good.

1482
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 4: That isn't good, That isn't good. Okay, I'm governing. How

1483
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 4: do I actually make this happen? That's my best version

1484
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 4: of the project, rather than just a version that equals okay. Now,

1485
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 4: we ought to support Richie Torus for governor.

1486
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 2: When I saw the reaction to that ad from specifically Mataglesius,

1487
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 2: who's an abundance guy.

1488
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 3: And his position is you should basically rank zoran last.

1489
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 2: Cuomo would be superior Quomo, who we know was a

1490
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 2: failed governor and to you know, like older elderly people

1491
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,719
Speaker 2: like to die in nursing homes during COVID is. Obviously

1492
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 2: there's the me too issues. Doesn't really stand for much

1493
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 2: of anything other than preserving the status quo. He thinks

1494
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 2: that he would be superior to Zoron, and there's just

1495
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 2: it seemed to expose that abundance is not really about

1496
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 2: getting to yes, and it is actually an attempt to

1497
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,719
Speaker 2: compete with what is an ascendant narrative within the Democratic Party,

1498
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 2: a very popular narrative within the Democratic Party about fighting

1499
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 2: corporate power and fighting oligarchy.

1500
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 3: So how do how should I think about those things?

1501
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the key thing here is abundance is rooted right,

1502
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 4: So actually abundance is a bunch of different things, right, So.

1503
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, so maybe startof do you define about He's.

1504
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 4: Hard to find abundance. So Ezra and Derek have written

1505
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,080
Speaker 4: this incredibly successful policy book, and yes, like it's an

1506
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 4: airport book. It's a quick read, but policy books like that,

1507
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 4: even short and accessible ones, do not sell as many

1508
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 4: books as they have sold. They have big platforms, they're

1509
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,680
Speaker 4: really good writers. Like this is speaking to a set

1510
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 4: of people who have like real organic like interests and

1511
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 4: thoughts behind this. So that's that's one part of it.

1512
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 4: The other part is there's a right wing people call

1513
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:16,600
Speaker 4: it dark abundance that anyways is sort of more of

1514
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,720
Speaker 4: the vcs like Mark Andrecent people in the Trump administration

1515
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 4: sort of a lot of the tech right falls into

1516
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 4: that sort of like right wing abundance kind of because

1517
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 4: they're like, look like Trump's going to build nuclear Trump's

1518
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 4: going to deregulate everything and help us build again. Technology

1519
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 4: is the way to the American future, etcetera. Etcetera. That's

1520
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,600
Speaker 4: part of the abundance movement as well too, though I

1521
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 4: would not overstate the use of the word abundance. And

1522
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 4: then there are sort of like this I think unhelpful

1523
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,840
Speaker 4: sort of version of abundance that in many ways is

1524
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 4: this center that was finding itself in a defensive position

1525
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 4: after November December, where they said, Okay, we have to

1526
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:57,080
Speaker 4: moderate on LGBTQ issues, we have to moderate an immigration etcetera, etcetera,

1527
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 4: but we actually do need to have something like forward

1528
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 4: facing to say, and they've adopted abundance as part of

1529
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 4: that project because though the project is like moderating and

1530
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 4: making the Democratic Party more centrist, abundance has been mixed

1531
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 4: into that. What I'm trying to do with my work

1532
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 4: from my small podcast perch is build out abundance as

1533
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 4: a broader sort of approach or set of policies and

1534
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 4: questions that any sort of like from the center to

1535
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 4: the left over we thinking about it, and I think

1536
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 4: the way about to tell a story. And I'm not

1537
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 4: saying this as a dunk on you. This has become

1538
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:33,160
Speaker 4: a sort of close table. I'm actually asking did you

1539
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 4: read the book Abundance? Yes? Okay, so you noticed the

1540
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,240
Speaker 4: first the first chapter is this like twenty to fifty

1541
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 4: vision of the future where like technology and growth provided

1542
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 4: us all these different great things. I actually really did

1543
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 4: not like that first chapter, especially from the perspective of

1544
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:50,760
Speaker 4: articular into the left. Why that should actually care about

1545
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 4: these ideas because I think a to your point, we

1546
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:55,880
Speaker 4: live in an error where people are backlashing against oligarchy,

1547
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 4: where people like aren't excited about technology or resubating smartphones

1548
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,600
Speaker 4: like that is a version of the book. Because this

1549
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 4: book was supposed to come out in twenty twenty four,

1550
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 4: I've suspect if they were to start this project today,

1551
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 4: the book first chapter be a little different. So my

1552
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 4: pitch for what the first chapter should have looked like

1553
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 4: is rooted in me not being a New Yorker or

1554
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 4: a San Franciscan, which is where a lot of the

1555
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:17,799
Speaker 4: mb House people come from, with me being like a Texan.

1556
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 4: I live in Austin, I lived next to the hill Country,

1557
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 4: and I haven't looked at the books in a while,

1558
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:27,719
Speaker 4: but the Path to Power that Robert Carrow's biography LBJ

1559
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,679
Speaker 4: is no longer back there. But that was a really

1560
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 4: informative book for like Sager and my politics. And here's

1561
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 4: my favorite chapter of the book. It talks about how

1562
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 4: in nineteen thirty seven LBJ is a Congressman and during

1563
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 4: the New Deal there's something called the Rural Electrification Administration

1564
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 4: and what it literally did was bring power to rural America.

1565
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 4: We had electricity in the country of more than fifty years,

1566
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 4: but the private sector was not delivering electricity to the

1567
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 4: hill country to pour like hard scrabble farmers. And what

1568
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 4: the New Deal did used a combination of private actors

1569
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 4: and public actors to create these co ops that brought

1570
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,560
Speaker 4: and Robert Carroll's telling I really reckon people read this

1571
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 4: book brought people into the twentieth century from the Stone Age. Effectively,

1572
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:14,639
Speaker 4: people are like didn't have powered, Now they have power.

1573
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:19,439
Speaker 4: That is a vision of broad left liberalism that deliver

1574
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 4: for people and really mattered and got over the actual

1575
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 4: objections and things that wouldn't make that happen. So rooting

1576
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 4: abundance in the story of Like Wow, Like it used

1577
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 4: to be that we had like a majoritarian left liberal

1578
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 4: politics that could fundamentally change people's lives by delivering them

1579
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 4: things that are powered by technology, that are powered by

1580
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 4: different forms of organizing and when the private sector or

1581
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 4: the public center can't get it done. That's really what

1582
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:44,840
Speaker 4: I want abundance to be rooted. And I think the

1583
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:46,800
Speaker 4: first chapter of the book that we pitched to the

1584
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 4: left would be rooted not in the future in a

1585
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 4: way that people aren't really bought into, just in the

1586
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 4: like why was it that nineteen thirties liberalism could deliver?

1587
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 4: But if we asked basically anyone, they would say that

1588
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 4: like New York, California, etc. All these like bastions of

1589
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 4: like left liberalism can't really deliver. That's why I want

1590
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 4: abundance to be rooted in.

1591
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 2: I think the whole country can't deliver. Though I mean,

1592
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 2: I am perfectly willing and happy to admit I'm in

1593
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 2: favor of, you know, zoning reform. That there are you know,

1594
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:19,760
Speaker 2: ways that the Texas housing zoning policy is superior to

1595
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:23,440
Speaker 2: the California zoning policy. But I feel like the differences

1596
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,839
Speaker 2: between Texas and California are less important than the differences

1597
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 2: between America now and America during the New Deal.

1598
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 3: As you're laying out and so, you.

1599
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:34,720
Speaker 2: Know, I was telling you before, I feel a little

1600
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 2: bit gas lit on abundance because sometimes it will be

1601
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:39,760
Speaker 2: pitched to me this way of like we're just talking

1602
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 2: about the new deal, like you like the new deal,

1603
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 2: right bro?

1604
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:43,200
Speaker 3: And I'm like, yeah, I like the new Deal.

1605
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,240
Speaker 2: And then other times it's pitched like screws or on

1606
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 2: Mundani and we just need to you know, effectively, like

1607
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 2: abundance is just a new pitch for neoliberalism where we

1608
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 2: get the regulators out of the way and these out

1609
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 2: of touch do good or liberals so that the big

1610
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 2: business can do their thing. And it can't be both

1611
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:07,360
Speaker 2: of these things. So there is a part the goals

1612
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 2: of abundance. Who could disagree with, right, building more stuff,

1613
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 2: building more housing, making housing more forward to actually being

1614
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,200
Speaker 2: able to do the high spreed rail like really building out.

1615
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 2: And this is where there's another i think tension within abundance,

1616
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 2: like really building out the capability to move into a

1617
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 2: green energy future. But to your point about there's this

1618
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 2: other part of abundance that also is very fossil fuel

1619
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 2: aligned and is you know, exist in the Trump administration,

1620
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:35,920
Speaker 2: which does not actually want that green energy future. It

1621
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 2: certainly starts to feel like, okay, this is being used

1622
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 2: whatever the intentions of you know, various people in the

1623
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 2: movement are it's being used as a way to stop

1624
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 2: a shift in the Democratic Party that would otherwise organically happen,

1625
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 2: and that you see happening towards, you know, a framing

1626
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 2: around corporate power and checking oligarchy. And so that's where

1627
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:03,040
Speaker 2: the concern comes in, is that you've got this moment.

1628
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:05,679
Speaker 2: You have this reckoning with the you know, the wreckage

1629
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:09,599
Speaker 2: of neoliberalism that has been repudiated sort of across the board.

1630
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 3: Here and around the world.

1631
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: By the way, you have a moment where Bernie and

1632
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 2: AOC have never been more popular, not just with the

1633
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 2: original Bernie base, but with the broader Democratic Party. You

1634
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 2: have a really clear reckoning with oligarchy, which has been

1635
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: made you know, abundantly evident by the Trump administration and

1636
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 2: Elon and Doge and the tech right, and having all

1637
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 2: of those oligarchs behind him at the inauguration, and the

1638
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 2: way that so much of their policy is driven towards

1639
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:38,639
Speaker 2: providing for the billionaire class.

1640
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 3: You also have this.

1641
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,600
Speaker 2: Reckoning with AI coming where these people are trying to

1642
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 2: become the first trillionaires and eliminate like half of the jobs,

1643
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:49,560
Speaker 2: and into this march is effectively what appears to me

1644
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,639
Speaker 2: to be basically like a rebranding of neoliberalism to say,

1645
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:54,680
Speaker 2: oh no, this is new and different, but really try

1646
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 2: to preserve the status quo. And that's where you know,

1647
01:17:57,280 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 2: I think evidence for this in terms of the way

1648
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 2: it's being used is by how eagerly it's being accepted

1649
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 2: by the richie tours is of the world, by the

1650
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 2: entire Senate Democratic Caucus and the establishment democratic figures who

1651
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 2: are most comfortable with trying to preserve the status quo.

1652
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:18,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that I'll offer you kind of

1653
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,080
Speaker 4: a rubric here, so you should note that when I

1654
01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 4: was sort of giving my pitch for abundance, I wasn't saying,

1655
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:25,280
Speaker 4: and we need to get America back to growth. Growth

1656
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 4: is the key key thing. Growth growth, growth, growth growth.

1657
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 4: You'll kind of hear that from sort of like the

1658
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 4: right wing like tech billionaire crowd here. That is like

1659
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 4: the version of abundance which is basically just like a

1660
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,879
Speaker 4: substitute for like neoliberalism, just substitute for me, we regulate

1661
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 4: and something that that is a key thing that I

1662
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 4: really should out for here. But let's go back to

1663
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,560
Speaker 4: this Zorron conversation. What I love about abundance, and this

1664
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:47,679
Speaker 4: is like the key thing. We're going to talk about

1665
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 4: this pole in a second. But there's you know, there's

1666
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 4: a poll out there it by Demand Progress that revealed

1667
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:55,080
Speaker 4: that abundance messaging is far less popular when you're not

1668
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:58,519
Speaker 4: door knocking for voters than a more populis centric pitch.

1669
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,200
Speaker 4: So I think that that's fine, Like that is not

1670
01:19:01,320 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 4: a shocker, Like if you are running for office right now,

1671
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 4: you should not be talking about bottlenecks, and like the

1672
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 4: fact that like our NEA laws have made it so

1673
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,800
Speaker 4: permitting doesn't Like that is not the pitch. The pitches

1674
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,040
Speaker 4: that like Elon Musk is like literally killing kids in Africa.

1675
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,920
Speaker 4: He's cutting your grandmother off of Social Security. So a

1676
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 4: bunch of like eighteen year old you know dudes can

1677
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 4: like play around and pretend they're like new dealers or

1678
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 4: something like that. Like that is what you are talking about,

1679
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:27,360
Speaker 4: right and to your point about Zora, And you're also

1680
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 4: talking about like housing and afford a bit like actual

1681
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 4: not not just like housing in the Astra, but like actually,

1682
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 4: like I am meeting you as a voter, and I'm

1683
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 4: recognizing the number one thing you're worried about right now

1684
01:19:36,760 --> 01:19:39,560
Speaker 4: is how truly precarious American life is right now, So

1685
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 4: like that is what the actual electoral pitch is. But

1686
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 4: what abundance should be in response to voters not being

1687
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 4: jazzed about bottleneck reforms is a tool kit to help

1688
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 4: politicians actually think through how freaking complicated and difficult it

1689
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 4: is to navigate this country. So back when I was

1690
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,479
Speaker 4: first getting into policy, if you were reluctive, you're talking

1691
01:19:58,479 --> 01:20:01,680
Speaker 4: about people talking people about housing, we just say, like, yeah,

1692
01:20:01,720 --> 01:20:03,640
Speaker 4: like rend control or you know, like let's just like

1693
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 4: kind of do that. Abundance expands the set of policies

1694
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:09,840
Speaker 4: in a bigger direction, So it says, okay, soron. So like,

1695
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,519
Speaker 4: I'm not going to convince Ron in any way whatsoever

1696
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:14,960
Speaker 4: that rent control isn't what like New Yorkers are demanding

1697
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 4: or what wouldn't be informer delivery for his base. What

1698
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 4: I could offer with the abundance toolkit is, but hey,

1699
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:24,240
Speaker 4: we really should also build more housing because there's a

1700
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:27,080
Speaker 4: real gap and shortage of housing. And yes, there are

1701
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:30,320
Speaker 4: two million New Yorkers who want rent control, but there's

1702
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:33,000
Speaker 4: also like other New Yorkers who don't have apartments right

1703
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:35,240
Speaker 4: now in the first place, and need apartments to actually

1704
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:37,640
Speaker 4: exist in the first place. So my real like and

1705
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:38,720
Speaker 4: the good news here too is.

1706
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 3: What would she embraces Yeah and so great?

1707
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 4: Right? That is that is that is what yes and

1708
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 4: looks like. And once again yes and should also be

1709
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:48,760
Speaker 4: rooted in that Kamala Harris poll. And add thing we

1710
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,639
Speaker 4: talked about earlier where it's like voters love more housing,

1711
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:53,519
Speaker 4: talk about the new dear or like what did Harry

1712
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:55,680
Speaker 4: Truman do after he comes into office? There was a

1713
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,200
Speaker 4: housing shortage in America. Whence all the g eyes came back,

1714
01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:00,719
Speaker 4: We built more housing. This is we have to people

1715
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 4: do in this country. So we're gonna have to come

1716
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 4: up with a broad mix of doing these different things.

1717
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 4: I think part of the issue too, of abundance what

1718
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 4: kind of Ezra and Derek or pundits like that is

1719
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:11,280
Speaker 4: their job, Like if you're a pundit, you noticed like

1720
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 4: you have to make your argument, dial it up to

1721
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:16,240
Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty percent and advance the argument. So

1722
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 4: they in their argument really focus this on the deregulatory story.

1723
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:22,920
Speaker 4: The reason why I went back to the New Deal

1724
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 4: story in terms of my telling of abundance is more

1725
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:27,400
Speaker 4: just that we should be focused at this point in

1726
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:29,679
Speaker 4: the conversation, or we put it this way because people

1727
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 4: what I wear are conversations they want. We should root

1728
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 4: our abundance conversations when we're trying to engage between like

1729
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 4: the center and the left in objectives and then work

1730
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:41,840
Speaker 4: our way backwards rather than just sort of saying, hey, guys,

1731
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 4: guess what deregulations they answered all of your problems. You're

1732
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 4: not going to agree with that. What I want you

1733
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 4: to agree with me here, and I suspect you will,

1734
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,680
Speaker 4: is we need to approach housing through a bunch of

1735
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:53,599
Speaker 4: different vectors. Rent control is not going to solve everything.

1736
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 4: That's your concession. I'm going to concede that if we

1737
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,880
Speaker 4: magically also a we're not going to magically just relax

1738
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,160
Speaker 4: zoning across the country because the incredibly unpopular, ironically enough,

1739
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 4: even with moderate centrist voters. I live in the Texas suburbs.

1740
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:07,640
Speaker 4: I promise you these mind. And this is also why

1741
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 4: the centrist like Abundance Project is going to run into

1742
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 4: like a weird place. I promise you like my centrist

1743
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 4: Texas voters definitely would like they're down for the moderate

1744
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 4: on social cultural issues part, they are not down for

1745
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:23,679
Speaker 4: like a mass GMBD regulatory program that fundamentally transforms the suburbs.

1746
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:25,760
Speaker 4: So we're both going to have to make some of

1747
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 4: some sort of like concession here and build an approach together.

1748
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 4: And that starts with recognizing, wow, we need to get

1749
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 4: more housing for people and make housing more affordable. That's

1750
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 4: a bunch of different approaches.

1751
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 2: I agree with all of that when you read the book.

1752
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 2: That is not actually the message of the book. And

1753
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:45,960
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that has been useful

1754
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 2: to me in listening to the re alignment is helping

1755
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,719
Speaker 2: to understand, like, Okay, the book is not the entirety

1756
01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:54,600
Speaker 2: of There are different factions here and the book is

1757
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 2: not the entirety of the movement. But you know, when

1758
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:59,360
Speaker 2: we were talking about narratives before, the narrative of the

1759
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 2: book is that there were these liberal do gutters who

1760
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 2: put a bunch of regulations in place, well intentioned that

1761
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:08,360
Speaker 2: have been that have you know, outserved their usefulness and

1762
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,720
Speaker 2: need to go. And a lot of this becomes very

1763
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 2: squishy because there are difficult moral choices involved in, you know,

1764
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,800
Speaker 2: pushing to the side any of these you know, regulations

1765
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 2: or any of the interest groups involved in what Ezra

1766
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 2: Client calls everything bagel liberalism, so he never wants to

1767
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 2: actually say, like, and that's why we shouldn't use prevailing

1768
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:34,080
Speaker 2: wage standards, right, Or that's why we shouldn't require childcare

1769
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:36,760
Speaker 2: as part of building these projects, or that's why we

1770
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 2: shouldn't do environmental review, or that's why we shouldn't have

1771
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:41,760
Speaker 2: these air protections to make sure that when we do

1772
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 2: build public housing that poor people aren't like suffering from

1773
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 2: asthma and other conditions that.

1774
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:46,920
Speaker 3: Would be avoidable.

1775
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 2: That's all kind of pushed to the side so that

1776
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:52,479
Speaker 2: it feels like there are no difficult moral choices that

1777
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:54,800
Speaker 2: have to be made there when there actually are.

1778
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 3: So that's number one.

1779
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:59,760
Speaker 2: Number two is what I would say is like on

1780
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 2: some of the concrete examples about you know, zoning regulation

1781
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:07,600
Speaker 2: and about building out green energy, I don't even I

1782
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,759
Speaker 2: don't disagree. What I disagree with is making that story

1783
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:15,680
Speaker 2: the central story to politics, because I don't. It's not

1784
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 2: that it's not part of the picture, but I don't

1785
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 2: think it is the central story to politics whatsoever. And

1786
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:22,960
Speaker 2: just to give one example, you know why when they

1787
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 2: did this massive study to look at, okay, when zoning

1788
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 2: reform has been implemented, what has been the impact on

1789
01:24:28,439 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 2: the housing supply, and it's it's not that it had

1790
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 2: no impact, but it increased housing supply.

1791
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 3: By like point eight percent.

1792
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:37,960
Speaker 2: So to have it as part of the agenda and

1793
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 2: to understand these issues in terms of governance and being

1794
01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:44,160
Speaker 2: able to better deliver, yes, absolutely. If you're trying to

1795
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:49,559
Speaker 2: supplant an oligar anti oligarch agenda with a yimbi agenda

1796
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 2: and a deregulatory agenda, yes, those two things are actually

1797
01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:55,960
Speaker 2: at odds with each other, and I.

1798
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:56,679
Speaker 3: Think they fail.

1799
01:24:56,880 --> 01:25:00,400
Speaker 2: I think they fail on both the I think abundance

1800
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:04,759
Speaker 2: as like this narrow we need to deregulate project fails

1801
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 2: both on the policy level to deliver the things that

1802
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:11,040
Speaker 2: we would want to deliver and on a political level

1803
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 2: in terms of winning elections at a time when you know,

1804
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 2: the stakes are really existential. Like you know, if you

1805
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,560
Speaker 2: zoom out for a minute, here we are, and I

1806
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 2: don't know if we agree on all of the contours

1807
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:24,200
Speaker 2: of this, but I think we're witnessing the rise of

1808
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:28,960
Speaker 2: a sort of like would be fascism and techno authoritarianism.

1809
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 2: You have these you know, powerful billionaires who are have

1810
01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 2: vast control over our government, who are doing things like,

1811
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:41,680
Speaker 2: you know, just cutting the funding of USAID so that

1812
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:44,560
Speaker 2: millions of people around the world may die as a

1813
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:45,759
Speaker 2: result of those cuts.

1814
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:47,439
Speaker 3: We're stripping the social safety net.

1815
01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:52,000
Speaker 2: Who are deregulating AI so that there's just this you know,

1816
01:25:52,240 --> 01:25:56,360
Speaker 2: massive rush into an AI arms race that could have

1817
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:59,640
Speaker 2: completely devastating consequences for the human race. But in the

1818
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 2: war immediate term is certainly going to cause significant labor

1819
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 2: and worker displacement. And you know, this agenda is being

1820
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 2: pursued at a rapid and terrifying pace. And so to

1821
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:19,600
Speaker 2: fight back against that with zoning reform and you know,

1822
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 2: getting the regulations out of the way, it's just to me,

1823
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:26,560
Speaker 2: it feels so wildly inadequate to the moment and what

1824
01:26:26,720 --> 01:26:29,719
Speaker 2: we actually need to deliver as a you know, counter

1825
01:26:29,760 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 2: political project to what is rapidly coalescing in this country

1826
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:33,439
Speaker 2: right now.

1827
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, So two things. So number one, I want to

1828
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:38,760
Speaker 4: focus on like the liberal do good or deregulation story

1829
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:41,160
Speaker 4: because I think it's really important. So what's been unfortunate

1830
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 4: from an abundance perspective is like Derek and Azer, because

1831
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:47,240
Speaker 4: they're the size of their audience has just blotted out

1832
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,599
Speaker 4: the sun. There was another book about abundance that also

1833
01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 4: came out a month before. It's called Why Nothing Works

1834
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 4: by Market Dogglement. It's a very very good Frankly, it's

1835
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 4: actually a much better book. It's one hundred pages longer. People,

1836
01:26:57,320 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 4: if you want to really learn about these books, should

1837
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:01,640
Speaker 4: read these books. They Why Nothing Works and when. What

1838
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 4: Mark does an amazing job is he tells this abundant

1839
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 4: story through the lens of like debates about America and

1840
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:11,679
Speaker 4: the left and liberalism for the twentieth centuries. Here's here's

1841
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 4: the way he tells the story. In the nineteen thirties,

1842
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 4: you saw he explains us that liberalism and by the way,

1843
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:19,719
Speaker 4: I know people, you know this, people get so nitpicky

1844
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 4: with the terms basically describing like left of like center

1845
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,120
Speaker 4: left thought in America extends all the way out during

1846
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:30,320
Speaker 4: the nineteen thirties. The way he explains this is liberalism

1847
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 4: has like two instincts. Like one is like the Hamiltonian

1848
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:37,439
Speaker 4: instinct after like Alexandra Hamilton. It's it's big, it's making moves,

1849
01:27:37,479 --> 01:27:40,599
Speaker 4: it's trying to force change, it's aggressive. So the New

1850
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 4: Deal was a Hamiltonian project. We were going to once

1851
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:46,839
Speaker 4: again electrify the whole country. We're going to build the TVA,

1852
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 4: we are going to build the Hoover Dan. We're gonna

1853
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 4: do all these big, big, big things and bring America

1854
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 4: into the twentieth century. We'll also like regulating capitalism, all

1855
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 4: these like different aspects. So that created a lot of

1856
01:27:57,320 --> 01:27:59,639
Speaker 4: really great stuff. And also, though, and this is why

1857
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:01,280
Speaker 4: I think this needs to be more rooted in the

1858
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 4: story of abundance, it created a lot of bad things,

1859
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 4: Like what is Rachel Carson's Silent Spring about? Like what

1860
01:28:07,360 --> 01:28:09,680
Speaker 4: were all those nineties? What is Ralph Nader is like

1861
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 4: unsafe at any speak? All these sort of like left

1862
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 4: movements that came out of the nineteen sixties looked at

1863
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 4: a lot of like the benefits of what we got

1864
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 4: from that Hamiltonian New Deal era, where we also had

1865
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:23,800
Speaker 4: business and government working very very and labor working very

1866
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:26,639
Speaker 4: very comfortably low two entangled together. There was a real

1867
01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 4: industrial complex there. We got a lot of benefit, but

1868
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,680
Speaker 4: we also got crazy costs. We have Robert Moses like

1869
01:28:31,800 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 4: destroying whole neighborhoods of people in New York City, We

1870
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:36,519
Speaker 4: had the police, We had all these different issues. So

1871
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 4: that activated a Jeffersonian instinct once again named after Thomas Jefferson,

1872
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:42,640
Speaker 4: what's going to listen to me? Just citing Mark here,

1873
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:45,679
Speaker 4: But the Jeffersonian instinct is like, nah, what about the people?

1874
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:49,120
Speaker 4: What about the local community. Did anyone ask, like a

1875
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:51,760
Speaker 4: small community of black people in New York City whether

1876
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 4: they agree with Robert Moses's grand Hamiltonian vision of what

1877
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:58,120
Speaker 4: the twentieth century city looked like. So, coming into the

1878
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:01,400
Speaker 4: sixties and seventies, as weocused more on the costs of

1879
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:04,840
Speaker 4: everything liberalism accomplished, we got movements and said, hey, let's

1880
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 4: focus on the on the on the downsides of that,

1881
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:09,920
Speaker 4: and that's really important. And I would really push back

1882
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,679
Speaker 4: on your idea that the best version of abundant says

1883
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,599
Speaker 4: we're just going to jettison We're going to jettison those

1884
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 4: regulations because they are just slowing us down and they're

1885
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:21,639
Speaker 4: a whole problem. No, like democracy, like all our politics

1886
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:23,560
Speaker 4: needs to be rooted in a belief in democracy and

1887
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:27,600
Speaker 4: once again a balancing of the Hamiltonian vision and the

1888
01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:29,879
Speaker 4: Jeffersonian vision. So the way that he kind of explains

1889
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 4: this is what's going to work out during this era

1890
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:34,760
Speaker 4: is how do we balance the recognition And I think

1891
01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 4: this is what The Green New Deal is the definition

1892
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 4: of a Hamiltonian project, right. The Green New Deal recognizes

1893
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:42,680
Speaker 4: that in a climate crisis, America has to move, It

1894
01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 4: has to move fast as to be big, and it

1895
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:46,680
Speaker 4: has to be bigginning. It's it's an ambitions. We're not

1896
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:48,400
Speaker 4: going to get this done via a bunch of tax

1897
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 4: credits to a bunch of corporations. You get this done,

1898
01:29:50,640 --> 01:29:56,639
Speaker 4: that's Hamiltonian. Jeffersonian side, though, is hey a Hamiltonian project

1899
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 4: that has premised on us bulldozing in the entire country,

1900
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,719
Speaker 4: not listening to communities who may have pollution, not listening

1901
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:04,599
Speaker 4: to local communities who have their own Actually, it's also

1902
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:06,560
Speaker 4: not going to work. So what I'm trying to do

1903
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 4: with my work, and this is why I'm really grateful

1904
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 4: to have a platform to talk about this here, is

1905
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:13,720
Speaker 4: how do we actually balance the Hamiltonian instinct with the

1906
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 4: Jeffersonian instinct. And I think if Ezra and Derek spoke

1907
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,680
Speaker 4: from the perspective more of like balancing those dynamics, And

1908
01:30:20,680 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 4: that's what we're trying to really get to. How do

1909
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:24,560
Speaker 4: we recognize a climate crisis? How do you recognize the

1910
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 4: fact that you really need to get how do we

1911
01:30:26,479 --> 01:30:28,960
Speaker 4: recognize the fact that we need to reshore our semiconductors

1912
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:30,960
Speaker 4: in this country with the fact that we have local

1913
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 4: communities and democracy. So that's what I'm trying to basically

1914
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:35,680
Speaker 4: get to. And the last thing in the second part

1915
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 4: of your response is, look, I think an abundance And

1916
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,160
Speaker 4: this is why I said that Ezra and Derek are

1917
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:41,800
Speaker 4: doing the pundant thing where they dial everything up to

1918
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty percent to sell their argument. This

1919
01:30:44,439 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 4: is everyone does this right. This is a left fright

1920
01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 4: of center thing. I think there's been a serious overstatement

1921
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:52,760
Speaker 4: of effect of abundance and gender policies, and I don't

1922
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:55,800
Speaker 4: want to I would, and that's why my pitch for

1923
01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:57,519
Speaker 4: what we do moving forward. I'm doing this on my

1924
01:30:57,560 --> 01:31:00,320
Speaker 4: own and other people are thinking about this too too.

1925
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:02,720
Speaker 4: When when I talk about this on the podcast, I

1926
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:06,000
Speaker 4: get input from actual politicians and actual staffers of what

1927
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 4: they're looking for. Is what we're talking about this here too.

1928
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:11,240
Speaker 4: That's actually the funny thing, Like most people are not

1929
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:14,600
Speaker 4: actually looking to do a big like centrist versus like

1930
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:18,320
Speaker 4: progressive fight. Most people recognize what time it is and

1931
01:31:18,400 --> 01:31:20,840
Speaker 4: how we need to build something together. So my point

1932
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:23,240
Speaker 4: is let's focus on I would love to sit down

1933
01:31:23,320 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 4: with Stora and right here and say, look, let's just

1934
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 4: start the fact that housing is a crisis and we

1935
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:29,800
Speaker 4: need more of it and it needs to be more affordable,

1936
01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 4: and then we work our way backwards to how we

1937
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:34,600
Speaker 4: actually get there. If abundance people are not willing to

1938
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 4: do that, then A they're not going to gain political

1939
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 4: power in the first place, given your point, but B

1940
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:39,840
Speaker 4: it's not going to work.

1941
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:42,599
Speaker 2: So Unfortunately, at the very end of that segment with Marshall,

1942
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 2: I collapse into a coughing fit, which took me a

1943
01:31:45,360 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 2: while to recover from. But I just wanted to make

1944
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 2: sure to say thank you so much to Marshall. Really

1945
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:51,640
Speaker 2: enjoyed seeing him, enjoyed engaging with him. I thought it

1946
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 2: was really great to have his insights on what is

1947
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:56,720
Speaker 2: going on in the world and abundance. All right, let's

1948
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:58,360
Speaker 2: go ahead and move on to what is going on

1949
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 2: with Palenteer. Trump administration, according to The New York Times,

1950
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 2: is launching this elaborate project to hoover up all of

1951
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:10,599
Speaker 2: our data to consolidate it in one database, and they

1952
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 2: are working with Palenteer in order to accomplish these goals.

1953
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 3: So let's talk to Ken Clippenstein about what's going on here.

1954
01:32:19,400 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 2: Joining us this morning is Ken Klippenstein, who is a

1955
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:26,400
Speaker 2: fantastic journalist over at Substack and has been following I

1956
01:32:26,439 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 2: guess you'd probably called the deep state the national security

1957
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:30,080
Speaker 2: state for a long time.

1958
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 3: Great to see you again, Hey, good to be back.

1959
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:36,360
Speaker 2: So I have grave concern and interest over these reports

1960
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 2: that Palenteer is going to be working with the Trump

1961
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:45,960
Speaker 2: administration to compile this massive database of information about American citizens.

1962
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 2: We can put this up on the screen from the

1963
01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 2: New York Times, they say Trump taps Palenteer to compile

1964
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 2: data on Americans. The Trump administration has expanded Palenteers work

1965
01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 2: with the government, spreading the company's technology which could easily

1966
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 2: merge data on Americans throughout eahencies. So help us understand

1967
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 2: stand the contours of the story and what Palenteer even

1968
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 2: is and what it means for ordinary people.

1969
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:13,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, so Palenteer is this sort of AI fueled software

1970
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 8: tech company that is a contractor for all sorts of

1971
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:19,640
Speaker 8: national security agencies across government. I believe they had a

1972
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:24,519
Speaker 8: meeting with the IDF last year in relation to the

1973
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:28,840
Speaker 8: war in Gaza. So basically because of the advancements in

1974
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 8: AI that we've seen over the last several years, it

1975
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 8: has become an integral part of basically every major military

1976
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:38,840
Speaker 8: at this point, for things like targeting kind of the

1977
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 8: roat stuff that it would have taken a lot of

1978
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 8: human manpower to do. Now they're no longer limited by that.

1979
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 8: And I think the concern on the part of ordinary people,

1980
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 8: even if you're not someone that lives in Gaza or

1981
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 8: in Ukraine where it's being used, or wherever else, is

1982
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 8: that something that has preserved our civil liberties for a

1983
01:33:58,840 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 8: long time has been just the pragmatic fact that as

1984
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:05,560
Speaker 8: much information as agencies collect, it was never feasible for

1985
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:06,600
Speaker 8: them to be able to go through it.

1986
01:34:06,680 --> 01:34:06,800
Speaker 4: All.

1987
01:34:08,040 --> 01:34:11,280
Speaker 8: AI now is making it possible to do that, To

1988
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 8: triage these huge amounts of data that are being siphoned

1989
01:34:15,600 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 8: up not just by social media analysis but network analysis

1990
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:22,679
Speaker 8: ways that they try to map out connections between people.

1991
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:25,000
Speaker 8: All of that now is able to be done in

1992
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:30,479
Speaker 8: near real time without that delimiting factor of how many

1993
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:32,080
Speaker 8: people you can actually have to go through it.

1994
01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 3: So more perfect.

1995
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:38,280
Speaker 2: Union put together a good video explaining what Palenteer is,

1996
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:41,160
Speaker 2: what it does, and how the Federal government may be

1997
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:42,000
Speaker 2: planning to use it.

1998
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and take a listen to a portion

1999
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:43,760
Speaker 3: of that.

2000
01:34:44,439 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 12: There's a reason Palenteer just replaced Ford Motors in the

2001
01:34:48,360 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 12: S and P one hundred in the months after Trump

2002
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 12: was elected. The Trump administration is an ideal customer for

2003
01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:58,200
Speaker 12: what Palenteer is selling. First, there are many former Palenteer

2004
01:34:58,240 --> 01:35:03,320
Speaker 12: employees sprinkled across the administration, from inside DOGE to foreign

2005
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:08,320
Speaker 12: policy advisors to high level technology appointees, and Palenteer co

2006
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:11,840
Speaker 12: founder Peter Thiel, heavily invested in the company, is also

2007
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 12: heavily invested in President Trump and Vice President Vance. He

2008
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 12: was a major campaign donor to both. Then, the stated

2009
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 12: goal of DOGE is to streamline and combine government data,

2010
01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:26,559
Speaker 12: which is exactly what Palenteer does.

2011
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 10: The ways that the government is defrauded is that the

2012
01:35:29,280 --> 01:35:30,760
Speaker 10: computer systems don't talk to each other.

2013
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:32,720
Speaker 12: And obviously Karp is.

2014
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:34,080
Speaker 6: Loving in disruption.

2015
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:36,040
Speaker 7: At the end of the day, exposed as things that

2016
01:35:36,040 --> 01:35:38,320
Speaker 7: aren't working, there'll be ups and downs, there's a revolution.

2017
01:35:38,640 --> 01:35:40,640
Speaker 4: Some people can get their heads cut off, Like you know,

2018
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:42,679
Speaker 4: it's like we're we're.

2019
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:45,200
Speaker 7: Expecting to see really unexpected things.

2020
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:45,479
Speaker 4: And to win.

2021
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:49,320
Speaker 12: And what is winning. According to Palenteer, this is CTO

2022
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 12: Shamsen Karr in twenty twenty.

2023
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,439
Speaker 11: One, turning to government, we continue to advance our mission

2024
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:57,240
Speaker 11: of becoming the US Government's central operating system as we

2025
01:35:57,320 --> 01:36:00,719
Speaker 11: extend our footprint across defense, healthcare, and suit allien agencies.

2026
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:05,760
Speaker 12: The government's operating system, they want everything to funnel through, Palenteer.

2027
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:08,600
Speaker 2: So the US Government's central operating system, and we can

2028
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:11,759
Speaker 2: put E four actually up on the screen here. Jason

2029
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:15,080
Speaker 2: Bassler tweeted about some of the data the government already

2030
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:19,759
Speaker 2: collects on everybody that would now be centralized and unified.

2031
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 2: He's talking about tax filing, student dead, social security bank accounts,

2032
01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,880
Speaker 2: medical claims, immigration status, and he says no previous database

2033
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,200
Speaker 2: system has ever centralized as much personal info across various

2034
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:32,320
Speaker 2: federal agencies. So help us understand the extent of this

2035
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:36,640
Speaker 2: in the ways in which this could be deployed. You know,

2036
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:39,599
Speaker 2: I think we already have some inklings of this from

2037
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:42,120
Speaker 2: the War on Terror and the way that you know,

2038
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:47,560
Speaker 2: dissent in various administrations has been has been curbed and

2039
01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:51,520
Speaker 2: people profiled who may be at odds with administration priorities.

2040
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:54,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, so the national security state is so pervasive in

2041
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,160
Speaker 8: the United States that if you look at a case

2042
01:36:57,280 --> 01:36:59,320
Speaker 8: like ICE, which you mentioned a moment ago, they're being

2043
01:36:59,400 --> 01:37:01,760
Speaker 8: our on a large I think it was a thirty

2044
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:04,880
Speaker 8: million dollar contract that they were rewarded. People think of

2045
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:07,920
Speaker 8: ICE as the deportation Squad, which that's obviously part of

2046
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:11,800
Speaker 8: their job, but they have another lesser known division that

2047
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:16,280
Speaker 8: it's kind of like the Homeland Security Department's own equivalent

2048
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:19,760
Speaker 8: of the FBI. It's called Homeland Security Investigations. And if

2049
01:37:19,760 --> 01:37:21,599
Speaker 8: you go and look through some of the stuff that's

2050
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:25,439
Speaker 8: been released under FOYA about them, they're involved in monitoring

2051
01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 8: protesters related to the Gaza war, stuff that you wouldn't

2052
01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 8: think of as what you think of as ICE's remit,

2053
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:35,120
Speaker 8: you know, being going after people that they're going to deport.

2054
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:38,960
Speaker 8: That's what it's other function, called Enforcement and Removal Operations does,

2055
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 8: But that's not all they do. So these guys have

2056
01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:44,360
Speaker 8: a very broad mission set. It's not just immigration, it's

2057
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:48,080
Speaker 8: also quote national security threats, which can encompass a lot.

2058
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:50,080
Speaker 4: They've got thousands of special agents.

2059
01:37:50,479 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 8: It's kind of the biggest law enforcement agency you've never

2060
01:37:53,160 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 8: heard of Homeland Security Investigations.

2061
01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 4: So not only is that all true of ice. ICE

2062
01:37:58,520 --> 01:37:59,680
Speaker 4: is not actually a.

2063
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:02,479
Speaker 8: Member of the intelligence community, so at the very least

2064
01:38:02,520 --> 01:38:05,120
Speaker 8: we hear more about it because it's less secretive than

2065
01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:08,439
Speaker 8: some of the other agencies. My concern is the contracts

2066
01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:10,680
Speaker 8: that a company like Pound is being awarded on the

2067
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:14,959
Speaker 8: classified side. On the side that is the national security agencies,

2068
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:19,839
Speaker 8: you know, the part of FBI, CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency.

2069
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 8: We're not going to hear about any of that. And

2070
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:24,160
Speaker 8: my sense from talking to people is that there is

2071
01:38:24,200 --> 01:38:27,160
Speaker 8: a massive deployment going on at that level, as well

2072
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 8: as the you know, lower law enforcement agencies that are

2073
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:33,439
Speaker 8: not a member of that system of the of the

2074
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:35,960
Speaker 8: intelligence community like I. So so what we're talking about

2075
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,160
Speaker 8: now is just the tip of the iceberg and what

2076
01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:39,639
Speaker 8: you're actually able to see.

2077
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:42,200
Speaker 4: All this is important thing to talk about. What you

2078
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:42,599
Speaker 4: did there.

2079
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 8: All this is important thing to talk about because when

2080
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:49,320
Speaker 8: Trump talks about cutting these agencies, and in some cases

2081
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:51,639
Speaker 8: he is trying to cut them. He proposed to five

2082
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:54,479
Speaker 8: percent cut to FBI, for instance, and cutting certain things

2083
01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:59,000
Speaker 8: in the Department of Defense, the military. He's cutting legacy systems.

2084
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:01,800
Speaker 8: So we're talking Lockey Martin. It's going to affect the

2085
01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:04,880
Speaker 8: old school companies but what's happening at the same time

2086
01:39:05,040 --> 01:39:08,519
Speaker 8: is more money is being thrown at these newer entrants

2087
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 8: who are focused on AI technology. So it's sort of

2088
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,679
Speaker 8: misleading to say he wants to cut these deep state agencies.

2089
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:17,080
Speaker 8: It's more like he wants to move the money from

2090
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:19,880
Speaker 8: these legacy platforms, which I think there's a good argument for,

2091
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:24,200
Speaker 8: but towards these AI fueled ones that raise all these

2092
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:26,600
Speaker 8: civil liberties concerns that we're talking about.

2093
01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:29,760
Speaker 2: Now, right, And you wrote an article called Homeland Securities,

2094
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:33,360
Speaker 2: pre Crime Push where you're talking about some of these elements.

2095
01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:34,960
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that I've been really

2096
01:39:35,160 --> 01:39:37,920
Speaker 2: thinking through in this era where the Trump administration is

2097
01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:40,760
Speaker 2: trying to fectuate this policy of mass deportation, there's a

2098
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:43,800
Speaker 2: conception that you can sort of limit those tactics just

2099
01:39:43,960 --> 01:39:48,919
Speaker 2: to the immigrant or the undocumented immigrant population. That's not possible,

2100
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:51,880
Speaker 2: And I mean, we already see this in ways that

2101
01:39:52,160 --> 01:39:56,000
Speaker 2: American citizens are getting swept up by ice. You see

2102
01:39:56,040 --> 01:39:57,960
Speaker 2: this in the way that American citizens who may be

2103
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 2: married to an immigrant are having their liberties infringed upon.

2104
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:04,680
Speaker 2: But more broadly, in order to figure out who is

2105
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:07,479
Speaker 2: citizen and who is non citizen, you got to take

2106
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:11,479
Speaker 2: a look at and surveil everyone. It necessitates a vast,

2107
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:15,880
Speaker 2: massive police state. Again, the priorities of which are quite

2108
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:20,160
Speaker 2: evident in the Republican Trump budget, which massively expands ICE.

2109
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:24,800
Speaker 2: It also expands the Pentagon budget, massively expands detention facilities.

2110
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:29,360
Speaker 2: Like those things don't just stay aimed at a the

2111
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:34,960
Speaker 2: non citizen population. It necessarily has to take a look

2112
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 2: at everyone in order to figure out who are the

2113
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:40,360
Speaker 2: goodies in their view and who are the baddies.

2114
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:43,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, a critical point here is that what AI allows

2115
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:47,320
Speaker 8: you to do is map out networks, connections between people,

2116
01:40:47,320 --> 01:40:49,760
Speaker 8: and that's very explicitly what they're trying to do, and

2117
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:51,920
Speaker 8: that's going to, you know, pull people into the drag

2118
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:54,720
Speaker 8: net far beyond the only individuals you're talking about. So

2119
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 8: when you send ICE out to conduct things like what's

2120
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 8: called pattern of life analysis, see or someone walks to

2121
01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 8: and goes back from before they deport someone, they try

2122
01:41:03,400 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 8: to get a sense of their pattern of life, where

2123
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:07,120
Speaker 8: do they go about their day, Where can we try

2124
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:09,639
Speaker 8: to intercept them? And as you're mapping that out, you're

2125
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:11,800
Speaker 8: going to sweep up all sorts of other things. So

2126
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:15,680
Speaker 8: in the case of Mackmood Khalil. They're going to be

2127
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:19,920
Speaker 8: surveilling the demonstrations of which he's participating in. It's impossible

2128
01:41:19,960 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 8: to separate those two things, and that's what we've seen

2129
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:24,240
Speaker 8: again and again there are you know, Foyer records to

2130
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:28,120
Speaker 8: show this that ICE is looking at the demonstrations more

2131
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:33,000
Speaker 8: generally and not just people they suspect of immigration violations.

2132
01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:34,920
Speaker 8: So yeah, that has to be front and centered everything

2133
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:37,320
Speaker 8: we think about, because again, now they can process this

2134
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:39,920
Speaker 8: stuff at scale in a way they never could before.

2135
01:41:40,600 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 2: And so that is really the sort of I guess

2136
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 2: tipping point that we're at right now is just the

2137
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:50,280
Speaker 2: technological development has advanced to the point that they are

2138
01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:53,679
Speaker 2: able to accomplish this grand scheme of having a mass

2139
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:56,960
Speaker 2: database of all of the information and tracking us in

2140
01:41:57,080 --> 01:41:59,560
Speaker 2: these significant ways. You know, there's been a lot of

2141
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:02,160
Speaker 2: conversation about Elon and Doses. There's actually a little clip

2142
01:42:02,200 --> 01:42:04,360
Speaker 2: of him in the more Perfect Union piece, and in

2143
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:06,599
Speaker 2: some ways DOJ's this total and complete failure didn't save

2144
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 2: any money, made the government less efficient, but in other ways,

2145
01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:11,800
Speaker 2: you know, I have a lot of questions about what

2146
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 2: was going on there and what sort of data was

2147
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:18,960
Speaker 2: being collected what sort of data was being consolidated. And

2148
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 2: you know Elon obviously very close to Teal and to

2149
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:26,519
Speaker 2: Alex krp over at at Pallenteer. You know, what do

2150
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:29,680
Speaker 2: you make of how the DOGE project sort of is

2151
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,519
Speaker 2: connected to this move towards massive data collection.

2152
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:36,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, AI informed that as well.

2153
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 8: I mean, Musk has his own company x AI, which

2154
01:42:40,760 --> 01:42:42,600
Speaker 8: the most common part of that that we think of

2155
01:42:42,760 --> 01:42:47,880
Speaker 8: is is Grock on Twitter. But the idea behind that

2156
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:50,200
Speaker 8: is that all of these companies are trying to take

2157
01:42:50,240 --> 01:42:53,160
Speaker 8: the information that they already had. And you know, there's

2158
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:55,840
Speaker 8: a lot of speculation that that's why Elon Musk bought

2159
01:42:56,040 --> 01:42:57,479
Speaker 8: x in the first place, is to be able to

2160
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 8: access that data and then have some sort of input

2161
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:04,640
Speaker 8: to use to train AI on. And so there is

2162
01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:06,599
Speaker 8: just this Blitzer out Just to give you just one

2163
01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 8: random example, since the budget came out, I was looking

2164
01:43:08,640 --> 01:43:11,880
Speaker 8: through it, the Department of Homeland Security has an AI core,

2165
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:13,840
Speaker 8: just like the Peace Corps or any other you know,

2166
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:16,840
Speaker 8: subgroup that an agency might have that has an entire

2167
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:19,400
Speaker 8: team of people going on to these different agencies figuring

2168
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 8: out just like we saw with DOGE, but happening at

2169
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:25,320
Speaker 8: the agency level, which we might not hear about how

2170
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:29,120
Speaker 8: do we take these breakthroughs that these these advancements that

2171
01:43:29,200 --> 01:43:34,320
Speaker 8: are happening and apply that to case management, to information processing,

2172
01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:37,599
Speaker 8: and like you said before, sharing across agencies. Even though

2173
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:40,560
Speaker 8: ICE is not in the intelligence community, they have a

2174
01:43:41,439 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 8: they have a formal mechanism by which they can share

2175
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 8: information with them. So something that ICE might sweep up,

2176
01:43:48,560 --> 01:43:50,680
Speaker 8: maybe they'll get passed along to FBI, maybe it'll get

2177
01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:52,560
Speaker 8: passed along to military police.

2178
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 4: Or whatever it may be.

2179
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 8: So there really needs to be a debate about this

2180
01:43:56,760 --> 01:43:59,880
Speaker 8: brave new era we're entering in because protecting ciblierties can

2181
01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:03,960
Speaker 8: go completely different than it did prior to prior to

2182
01:44:04,720 --> 01:44:07,639
Speaker 8: machine learning and some of these large language models.

2183
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is all well said. I wanted

2184
01:44:10,439 --> 01:44:12,960
Speaker 2: to talk to you also, Ken about another issue. We

2185
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:16,799
Speaker 2: got some extraordinary, I guess comments from former State Department

2186
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:21,280
Speaker 2: spokesperson Matt Miller, who became, you know, quite infamous from

2187
01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:23,880
Speaker 2: being up at the podium and defending things that should

2188
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:27,839
Speaker 2: be indefensible in the context of our support of Israel,

2189
01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:30,519
Speaker 2: as Israel is committing what I and many scholars see

2190
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:34,439
Speaker 2: as a genocide in Gaza. Now he comes out and says, Yeah, obviously,

2191
01:44:34,600 --> 01:44:38,559
Speaker 2: Israel is committing war crimes. You know, that's that's completely apparent.

2192
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:40,240
Speaker 2: I just couldn't say it at the time because I

2193
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:41,400
Speaker 2: was representing the government.

2194
01:44:41,560 --> 01:44:42,920
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen to what he has to say.

2195
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:45,040
Speaker 4: Now, do you think what's going on in Gaza and

2196
01:44:45,080 --> 01:44:45,879
Speaker 4: now is a genocide?

2197
01:44:47,600 --> 01:44:49,920
Speaker 11: I don't think it's a genocide, but I think the

2198
01:44:51,400 --> 01:44:54,960
Speaker 11: I think it is without a doubt true that Israel

2199
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:56,080
Speaker 11: has committed war crimes.

2200
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:57,679
Speaker 12: You wouldn't have said that with the podium. Yeah.

2201
01:44:57,720 --> 01:44:59,839
Speaker 11: Look, because when you're at the podium, you're not expressing

2202
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:02,320
Speaker 11: your personal opinion. You're expressing the conclusions of the United

2203
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:06,080
Speaker 11: States government. The United States government has had not concluded

2204
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:08,160
Speaker 11: they've committed war crimes, still have not concluded that.

2205
01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:11,760
Speaker 12: But your personal view is they have. Well so they will.

2206
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 11: Well you with that. But here's here here, yes, but here,

2207
01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:16,960
Speaker 11: let me let me qualify that there are two ways

2208
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:19,200
Speaker 11: to think about the commission of war crimes. One is

2209
01:45:19,320 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 11: if the state has pursued a policy to deliberately committing

2210
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:25,439
Speaker 11: war crimes or is acting reckless in a way that

2211
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:27,720
Speaker 11: aids and abets war crimes, And that I think is

2212
01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:32,000
Speaker 11: an open question. I think What is heart is almost

2213
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:33,880
Speaker 11: certainly not an open question, is that there have been

2214
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:36,719
Speaker 11: individual incidents that have been that have been war crimes,

2215
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:39,840
Speaker 11: where members of the Israel and military have committed war crimes.

2216
01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:45,520
Speaker 11: So ultimately, in almost every major conflict, including conflicts prosecuted

2217
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:49,200
Speaker 11: by democracies, you will see individual members of the military

2218
01:45:49,680 --> 01:45:52,000
Speaker 11: of militaries commit war crimes. And the way you judge

2219
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:55,600
Speaker 11: a democracy is whether they hold those people accountable. But

2220
01:45:55,760 --> 01:45:59,120
Speaker 11: Israel has and that's my point is we have not

2221
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:02,679
Speaker 11: yet seen them hold sufficient numbers of the military accountable,

2222
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:04,519
Speaker 11: and I think it's an open question whether they're going to.

2223
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:08,000
Speaker 11: I'm really struck that you think now that Israel did

2224
01:46:08,080 --> 01:46:10,200
Speaker 11: commit war crimes and yet at the time and I

2225
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:12,400
Speaker 11: get why, but at the time you were at the

2226
01:46:12,439 --> 01:46:14,240
Speaker 11: podium and you couldn't say that.

2227
01:46:14,360 --> 01:46:16,200
Speaker 6: I mean, personally, that must be very DIFFERENTIVE tell you.

2228
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:19,320
Speaker 11: So the State Department itself had concluded not in these

2229
01:46:19,439 --> 01:46:21,400
Speaker 11: they didn't phrase it in these terms, but I think

2230
01:46:21,439 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 11: I did it. The podium a few times had concluded

2231
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:27,800
Speaker 11: that it was likely that Israel had committed war crimes.

2232
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:30,599
Speaker 6: But I do think it's almost certain your thoughts online ken,

2233
01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:32,200
Speaker 6: I mean, on the.

2234
01:46:32,240 --> 01:46:34,800
Speaker 8: One hand, it's of course outrageous that he's willing to

2235
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:36,800
Speaker 8: work for an administration that he clearly didn't agree with.

2236
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:38,680
Speaker 8: But on the other hand, I'll tell you, and I

2237
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:41,560
Speaker 8: talked to a lot of people from State, including diplomats,

2238
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:44,960
Speaker 8: what he speak what he's saying is pretty much in

2239
01:46:45,080 --> 01:46:46,840
Speaker 8: line with what a lot of these guys would say

2240
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:47,920
Speaker 8: privately when I talked to them.

2241
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:50,800
Speaker 4: I mean, it's the Agency for Diplomacy.

2242
01:46:51,680 --> 01:46:54,600
Speaker 8: It shouldn't surprise us that they see these things that

2243
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:57,759
Speaker 8: have these attitudes. But what does surprise because it shows

2244
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:00,479
Speaker 8: you how out of step President Biden was with his

2245
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:03,920
Speaker 8: own administration. Yeah, that so many people, including this spokes

2246
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:06,679
Speaker 8: this paid flag are coming out and saying this stuff

2247
01:47:06,760 --> 01:47:12,519
Speaker 8: like Biden had really, you know, strongly held views about

2248
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:15,080
Speaker 8: Israel that were not consistent with much of the rest

2249
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:17,640
Speaker 8: of his of his administration.

2250
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 2: I mean, I think most people would feel like even

2251
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:25,760
Speaker 2: if even if you are a paid spokesperson like that

2252
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:29,120
Speaker 2: doesn't just give you license to lie. And that's I mean,

2253
01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:33,080
Speaker 2: that is the moral position that he's effectively articulating here.

2254
01:47:33,600 --> 01:47:34,360
Speaker 3: So there's that.

2255
01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:38,840
Speaker 2: It's also astonishing to me the continued levels of spin

2256
01:47:39,360 --> 01:47:41,439
Speaker 2: at this point in time. I mean, You've got frickin'

2257
01:47:41,479 --> 01:47:44,640
Speaker 2: Piers Morgan out being like, what can I say? All right,

2258
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:48,400
Speaker 2: it's a genocide. I mean the number of Israeli officials

2259
01:47:48,400 --> 01:47:50,200
Speaker 2: all you have to listen to is their own statements

2260
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 2: when he's trying to parse, well, there might have been

2261
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:53,800
Speaker 2: individual war crimes, but I don't know if it was

2262
01:47:53,840 --> 01:47:56,920
Speaker 2: government policy. It's like, really, did you not see them

2263
01:47:57,000 --> 01:48:01,200
Speaker 2: announce a policy of mass starvation and blockade of the

2264
01:48:01,439 --> 01:48:02,559
Speaker 2: entire gaza strip?

2265
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:05,439
Speaker 3: Like have you not watched as we've had.

2266
01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:08,479
Speaker 2: Month after month after month of total annihilation and people

2267
01:48:08,560 --> 01:48:11,240
Speaker 2: being massacred as they go and try to get food aid?

2268
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:14,000
Speaker 2: Have you not listened to what BB neat and Yahoo

2269
01:48:14,080 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 2: was saying about how you know, we're just going to

2270
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:17,920
Speaker 2: use this aid as a pretext to basically.

2271
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:18,599
Speaker 3: Engage in ethnic cleansing.

2272
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:21,800
Speaker 2: Like it's wild to me at this point that you

2273
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:25,120
Speaker 2: could still engage in that level of self delusion to

2274
01:48:25,240 --> 01:48:28,640
Speaker 2: pretend that maybe this was just rogue actors within the

2275
01:48:28,760 --> 01:48:31,599
Speaker 2: IDF and though they haven't been punished appropriately, but they

2276
01:48:31,640 --> 01:48:34,479
Speaker 2: were just doing, you know, their own thing, rather than

2277
01:48:34,760 --> 01:48:39,519
Speaker 2: a very clear, consistent, concerted government policy at a time when,

2278
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:42,280
Speaker 2: like I said, even figures like Piers Morgan have figured

2279
01:48:42,320 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 2: out that this is the case.

2280
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:47,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, not just Peers, but very sufficials from powerful European

2281
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:49,280
Speaker 8: governments in France for instance.

2282
01:48:49,320 --> 01:48:50,599
Speaker 4: I mean, this is your changed.

2283
01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 8: I don't even d these are very powerful, wealthy European

2284
01:48:54,400 --> 01:48:57,439
Speaker 8: states saying these things. Something is happening over the last

2285
01:48:57,479 --> 01:48:59,479
Speaker 8: several weeks. I looked at that. I couldn't figure out

2286
01:48:59,479 --> 01:49:01,840
Speaker 8: what was driving it. But there's absolutely a shift that

2287
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 8: we haven't seen at any point since October seventh.

2288
01:49:05,040 --> 01:49:07,640
Speaker 2: So just for people's recollection, let's go ahead and take

2289
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:10,080
Speaker 2: a listen to some of the ways, some of the

2290
01:49:10,160 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 2: things that he was saying when he was at the podium.

2291
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:16,360
Speaker 11: I think it is without a doubt true that Israel

2292
01:49:16,400 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 11: has committed war crimes.

2293
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:19,080
Speaker 4: You wouldn't have said that with the podium. Yeah.

2294
01:49:19,120 --> 01:49:22,680
Speaker 11: Look at bureaus that look at facts, apply them to

2295
01:49:23,120 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 11: international law and make assessments. Those assessments are ongoing, and

2296
01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:29,000
Speaker 11: we have not yet at this time concluded that Israel

2297
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:32,360
Speaker 11: has violated international humanitarian law. But we have ongoing assessments

2298
01:49:32,360 --> 01:49:33,599
Speaker 11: across a number of different fronts.

2299
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:36,960
Speaker 12: So all these organizations are just wrong. They just see

2300
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:37,599
Speaker 12: the little difference.

2301
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:39,600
Speaker 11: I'm telling you that we have ongoing assessments and we

2302
01:49:39,640 --> 01:49:42,040
Speaker 11: have not yet reached that convailed to implement all the

2303
01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 11: things that we recommend in that other Now that said,

2304
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:47,240
Speaker 11: we are not at the end of the thirty day period,

2305
01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:50,800
Speaker 11: and we are. It's not the end, it's not the

2306
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:54,000
Speaker 11: end of the semester. You don't give out you don't

2307
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:55,800
Speaker 11: hand out grades in the middle and gives you the

2308
01:49:55,880 --> 01:49:58,400
Speaker 11: right to lecture other countries on there. More So, if

2309
01:49:58,439 --> 01:50:00,160
Speaker 11: you have a policy question for me, I'm happy to

2310
01:50:00,200 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 11: take it. If you want to give a speech, But

2311
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:03,320
Speaker 11: I think spa places in Washington where you can give

2312
01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:03,639
Speaker 11: a speech.

2313
01:50:03,720 --> 01:50:05,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, but people are sick of the bullshitting here.

2314
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:06,920
Speaker 6: I mean it is a genocide.

2315
01:50:07,439 --> 01:50:13,120
Speaker 1: Another question, a real blowing up an entire village in

2316
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:14,360
Speaker 1: southern Lebanon.

2317
01:50:17,400 --> 01:50:18,680
Speaker 4: What do you make of that?

2318
01:50:19,200 --> 01:50:23,439
Speaker 11: So I've seen the footage, I cannot speak to what

2319
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:25,960
Speaker 11: their intent was or what they were trying to accomplish.

2320
01:50:26,040 --> 01:50:28,960
Speaker 11: Sometimes everyone likes to make this seem like a black

2321
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:32,280
Speaker 11: and white issue that it's completely simple, where there's somebody

2322
01:50:32,320 --> 01:50:35,439
Speaker 11: that's blocking humanitarian assistants, when it actually it can be

2323
01:50:35,520 --> 01:50:39,439
Speaker 11: much more complex. Targeted attacks on civilians could not be justified.

2324
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:42,880
Speaker 11: But Israel does have the right to go after terrorists.

2325
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:45,800
Speaker 11: I mean, that is just a fact under international humanitarian

2326
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:48,320
Speaker 11: law that every country has the right to defend itself.

2327
01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:49,640
Speaker 3: So Ken, I'd like you to.

2328
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:51,720
Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about the moral calculation that goes

2329
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:55,040
Speaker 2: on here, because I think in some instances people could

2330
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:57,360
Speaker 2: be sympathetic to the idea that like, look, you're a

2331
01:50:57,400 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 2: spokesperson for this other politician. It's impractical to think your

2332
01:51:01,280 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 2: views are going to line up one hundred percent of

2333
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:06,120
Speaker 2: the time. You aren't speaking for yourself. You speaking on

2334
01:51:06,160 --> 01:51:09,040
Speaker 2: behalf of this agency. You're speaking on behalf of the president, whatever.

2335
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:11,080
Speaker 2: So there are going to be times when you represent

2336
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:13,840
Speaker 2: something that is not truly your own personal view. It

2337
01:51:13,960 --> 01:51:16,479
Speaker 2: seems very different when you're talking about something like war

2338
01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:20,200
Speaker 2: crimes and crimes against humanity. And I do think the

2339
01:51:20,280 --> 01:51:23,920
Speaker 2: willingness of someone like a Matt Miller to stand up

2340
01:51:23,920 --> 01:51:27,880
Speaker 2: there and say things he knows is not true to

2341
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:31,240
Speaker 2: remain in that job, even as it's not just Israel

2342
01:51:31,280 --> 01:51:35,000
Speaker 2: committing war crime, it's US funding, providing diplomatic cover for

2343
01:51:35,280 --> 01:51:38,000
Speaker 2: lying on their behalf shipping weapons in order for them

2344
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 2: to perpetrate those war crimes. Like that is to me

2345
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:47,400
Speaker 2: a morally unconscionable decision to make. So talk a little

2346
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:51,439
Speaker 2: bit about that moral landscape and the rationale that does

2347
01:51:51,560 --> 01:51:55,599
Speaker 2: go through the minds of people like Matthew Miller who

2348
01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:58,920
Speaker 2: end up adopting this pathetic line of Defenso I, you know,

2349
01:51:59,000 --> 01:51:59,960
Speaker 2: I was just following orders.

2350
01:52:01,320 --> 01:52:04,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, the capacity for rationalization has to be strong if

2351
01:52:04,560 --> 01:52:06,840
Speaker 8: you're if you're going to be a spokesperson for an

2352
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:08,720
Speaker 8: organization like that, and he clearly has that. I was

2353
01:52:08,760 --> 01:52:11,080
Speaker 8: amazed how breezely he was able to put it off.

2354
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:12,559
Speaker 8: I mean, if I did an interview like that, I'd

2355
01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 8: be kind of embarrassed and kind of like, here's what

2356
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:17,200
Speaker 8: I'm doing to try to, you know, make up for

2357
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:18,040
Speaker 8: what I said before?

2358
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:23,000
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, But you know it speaks to the it speaks.

2359
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:24,800
Speaker 8: To the culture, because he must be surrounded by people

2360
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:29,160
Speaker 8: that also are making these you know more uh, you know,

2361
01:52:29,280 --> 01:52:32,280
Speaker 8: very morally compromising decisions, and they're also used to it

2362
01:52:32,360 --> 01:52:35,800
Speaker 8: that it doesn't even merit thinking looking a little embarrassed

2363
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:39,840
Speaker 8: or trying to explain what what you're doing to to

2364
01:52:40,400 --> 01:52:43,719
Speaker 8: make up for your position before. That's the most disturbing

2365
01:52:43,800 --> 01:52:45,880
Speaker 8: feature of it is how when they're breezy about it.

2366
01:52:46,280 --> 01:52:48,160
Speaker 8: That means that they're used to it and they're surrounded

2367
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 8: by other people that are used to it.

2368
01:52:50,040 --> 01:52:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a great point. Can tell people where

2369
01:52:53,280 --> 01:52:54,920
Speaker 2: they can follow you and support your work.

2370
01:52:55,800 --> 01:52:58,400
Speaker 4: I'm on substack. You can find me at kenclipansign dot com.

2371
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:00,920
Speaker 3: All right, Ken, Great to see you, my friend, Get

2372
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:01,519
Speaker 3: to see you again.

2373
01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:04,120
Speaker 2: All right, guys, that does it for me here today,

2374
01:53:04,240 --> 01:53:07,479
Speaker 2: Ryan and Emily will be in tomorrow. Reminder, Reminder, reminder,

2375
01:53:07,560 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 2: we are doing a one month free trial of Breaking Points.

2376
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Speaker 2: Friday show, Get every show full and uncut early in

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2381
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:29,280
Speaker 2: guys who are out there who have supported the show

2382
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:30,599
Speaker 2: and made this work possible.

2383
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:32,800
Speaker 3: And thanks for watching today. I'll see you soon.