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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last days, the California family sues the Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 2: Why because an ex state trooper, Austin Edwards, catfished a

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Speaker 2: little girl just fifteen years old, crossed the country to

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Speaker 2: find her and to get her murdered the little girl's

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Speaker 2: mother and grandparents. Oh my goodness, you couldn't even make

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Speaker 2: this story up. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 2: and Serious xem one eleven. Austin Lee Edwards, twenty eight,

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Speaker 2: no question about it, murdered Mark Winnick sixty nine, his wife,

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Speaker 2: Cherie sixty five, and their thirty eight year old daughter.

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Speaker 1: That's the little.

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Speaker 2: Girl's mom, Brooke Winnock. Now he let the little girl,

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Speaker 2: the fifteen year old girl he was catfishing, live, but

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Speaker 2: now she's living without her mother and grandparents. Now we

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Speaker 2: know a bombshell lawsuit just filed the little girl's family

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Speaker 2: demanding one hundred million dollars. You think that's a lot, Well,

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Speaker 2: listen to these facts. How did the whole thing start?

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Speaker 2: First of all, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 3: The details will make your heart sink. And the lady

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Speaker 3: next door says she was more like family than a

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Speaker 3: next door neighbor. She had actually just gotten the turkey

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Speaker 3: out of refrigerator and walked outside for a second, saw

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Speaker 3: the smoke and the flames coming out of the front

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Speaker 3: of the house. Mortified and horrified, she called nine one one.

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Speaker 4: This son of a this he just has no clue

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Speaker 4: what he took away from this world.

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Speaker 3: For more than twenty years, they were next door neighbors

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Speaker 3: and the best kind.

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Speaker 4: Every neighborhood needs a winning family because they just were

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Speaker 4: the all American, loving, caring, supporting family that you can

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Speaker 4: ever ask for.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing our friends at Fox eleven and what she

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Speaker 2: just said. Every lead I've got, every person that's been

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Speaker 2: spoken to, agrees it's the all American family, the kind

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Speaker 2: on the front of the Hallmark card, scrubbed and sunshine.

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Speaker 2: So why are they all dead in their homes? And

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Speaker 2: to go another step, the home is set on fire.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of reasons that a home can be

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Speaker 2: set on fire. To Daryl Cohen joining me, high profile

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Speaker 2: lawyer in the Atlanta jurisdiction, former felony prosecutor and one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest murder capitals in the country. Now private

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Speaker 2: lawyer Gerald Cohen, you and I have dealt with a

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Speaker 2: lot of homicides, Minnie. I don't know how many homicides

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Speaker 2: I either investigated as we would do before we would

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Speaker 2: ever dream of entering and guilty plea took to trial

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Speaker 2: much less covered. But when you see a murder and

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Speaker 2: the scene is set on fire, that tells me something

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Speaker 2: that this purp is different from every other killer. When

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Speaker 2: you find out, Daryl Cohen, that the purpose set the

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Speaker 2: home on fire in a lovely residential area, what does

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Speaker 2: that tell you before you even open the case file.

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Speaker 5: Two words Nancy up, cover it up. Hope that the

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Speaker 5: fire and the ashes take all of the evidence and

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Speaker 5: put it away where it's not going to be seen

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Speaker 5: by law enforcement, by arson investigators exactly.

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Speaker 2: So you know immediately when somebody sets the murder scene

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Speaker 2: on fire, they are also staging. Now, staging doesn't have

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Speaker 2: to mean like in BTK, buying torture killed Dennis Raider.

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Speaker 2: He was the dogcatcher. Okay, straight one. He's a dog catcher.

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Speaker 2: He would see his victims women girls on his dog

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Speaker 2: catching route, would go back, rape, torture, murder them, and

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Speaker 2: then he would hang around the house because he knew

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Speaker 2: who would be coming home and when when with the

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Speaker 2: husband or the dad be coming home from work. He

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Speaker 2: would stay in there and pose the victims. He'd put

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Speaker 2: makeup on them, he'd dress them up and weird outfits.

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Speaker 2: He'd position their bodies. You know, Ted Bundy did that too.

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Speaker 2: He would bathe the dead victims and then do their

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Speaker 2: hair and makeup. That said, that's elaborate stage, but setting

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Speaker 2: the home on fire is also staging. Anything a purp

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Speaker 2: does to the scene post mortem is staging, and it

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Speaker 2: gives us a window into who the purp might be.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about it. Detective rich Ward Stocky joining me,

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Speaker 2: President of be Sure Consulting thirty years in law enforcement,

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Speaker 2: including swat detective. Typically, when you kill somebody, you want

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Speaker 2: to get out of there. You don't want to be

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Speaker 2: near the dead body, you don't want to be the scene,

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Speaker 2: near the scene, you don't want to be seen, you

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Speaker 2: don't want to leave your fingerprints. But some perps stay

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Speaker 2: to stage the scene. Have you ever seen that? What

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Speaker 2: does that say to you? Detective?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: Absolutely.

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Speaker 8: A lot of times professional hitmen will use this, but

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Speaker 8: they'll do a lot better job than this guy did.

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Speaker 2: So three dead bodies, the house going up in flames.

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Speaker 2: Take a listener our friends at NBC four.

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Speaker 9: Nobody could imagine this crime happening to my.

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Speaker 10: Family, to our family, But the unthinkable did happen to

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Speaker 10: Michelle Blanden's family. Her father, Mark Winnick, mother Sherry, and

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Speaker 10: younger sister Brooke. The last time she saw them was

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Speaker 10: on Thanksgiving. One day later, Mark, Sherry, and Brooke were

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Speaker 10: found dead inside the Riverside home on Price Court that

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Speaker 10: Michelle grew up in. She was at a store when

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Speaker 10: a longtime friend and neighbor urgently called her in a panic.

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Speaker 2: She called to tell.

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Speaker 9: Us that we needed to get there as soon as

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Speaker 9: we could because my parents' house was on fire.

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Speaker 10: Riverside police say inside her father, mother, and younger sister

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Speaker 10: had been murdered.

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Speaker 2: So this girl gets a call to rush home that

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Speaker 2: the home is on fire. I've spoken to a lot

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Speaker 2: of arson victims, and there's something about the burning of

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Speaker 2: your home. Thank Heaven, I have not experienced that. I

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Speaker 2: hope I never do. But there's some feeling that goes

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Speaker 2: through the victims' hearts and minds and soul when they

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Speaker 2: see everything they own in the world and all their

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Speaker 2: memories just going up in flames. Little does this girl

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Speaker 2: know that when she gets back, it's not just the

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Speaker 2: home that she has lost, she has lost her family

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Speaker 2: as well. So why burn the place up to eradicate

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Speaker 2: the evidence? So why is it so important to get

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Speaker 2: rid of the dead bodies? What do we know about

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Speaker 2: the victims? What do we know about this family? Is

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Speaker 2: there something the fary is going on with them? Is

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Speaker 2: there something that neighbors of twenty years somehow missed? Well,

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Speaker 2: take a listen to this.

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Speaker 9: My sister Brooke was a loving single mom who did

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Speaker 9: her best to raise her two teenage daughters in a

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Speaker 9: loving way. My dad, Mark, the silly old man that

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Speaker 9: I referenced him, always reference him to be, was a

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Speaker 9: soft spoken and humble man who would go out of

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Speaker 9: his way to help a friend or stranger in need.

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Speaker 9: My mom, Sherry, the matriarch of our family, with the

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Speaker 9: biggest giving heart imaginable, did anything and everything for everyone.

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Speaker 2: So you've got the daughter speaking out about each one

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Speaker 2: of her family members. There's nothing to see, you know.

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Speaker 2: In our line of business, we always think that there's

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Speaker 2: another side to the story. How could this seemingly normal

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Speaker 2: family be the target of a mass killing. What are

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Speaker 2: we missing? Let me go straight out to special guests

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Speaker 2: joining us Kristin Kwan, do we see YB joining us

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Speaker 2: from Bristol. Kristin question, what do we know about the

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Speaker 2: area where the fire occurred and the murders. It's my

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Speaker 2: understanding that it's a beautiful residential area.

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Speaker 11: Yes, so it happened in Riverside Blosser, a South neighborhood,

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Speaker 11: just after eleven am. And yeah, it's described as a

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Speaker 11: very very beautiful area in a nice neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: Kristen Kwan joining me WCYB, Bristol. I heard her say

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Speaker 2: something very interesting to me, Daryl Cohen, you prosecuted a

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Speaker 2: lot of inner city crimes. I learned after my first

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Speaker 2: jury trial to try to find witnesses after three pm

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Speaker 2: because all the dopers and all the Narra duels, all

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Speaker 2: the bad guys typically are up all night and then

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Speaker 2: they sleep. So if I need to find a no

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Speaker 2: good witness, don't even try till after three o'clock. On

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Speaker 2: the other hand, if I want to go find the

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Speaker 2: lady school bus driver or a that may have witnessed

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Speaker 2: something in the neighborhood, you can go anytime from seven

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Speaker 2: am on. But if you want to get a bad guy,

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Speaker 2: they're like vampires. They are up all night and they

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Speaker 2: sleep all day. My point is eleven a m triple

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Speaker 2: murder and arson. That is a little out of the

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Speaker 2: stereotypical pattern of crime.

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Speaker 5: Very different and so than the normal crime, very unusual

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Speaker 5: during the middle of the morning or late morning. Too

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Speaker 5: many people can see it, too many people are driving

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Speaker 5: by haphazardly. It's highly unusual and highly unlikely it would happen. Sadly,

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Speaker 5: it did, and it was Henus.

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Speaker 2: Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Riverside, California

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Speaker 2: has many, many facets to it. What can you tell

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Speaker 2: me about Riverside.

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Speaker 6: Riverside is about an hour and a half west southwest

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Speaker 6: of Los Angele List, So it's an area that is

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Speaker 6: very middle class. It's got a lot of neighborhoods, you know,

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Speaker 6: just as we see with this particular one. There's nothing

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Speaker 6: extraordinary about Riverside. Him not knocking it. It's just another

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Speaker 6: typical southern California community.

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Speaker 2: But wait a minute. Three dead bodies in the home.

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Speaker 2: That would be the single mom of two teen girls,

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Speaker 2: the grandparents, her parents. But there's someone missing. Where's the girl?

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at chacl nine. He

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Speaker 2: knew what he was doing. He knew what he was

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Speaker 2: doing exactly, but thank goodness, he made a lot of

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Speaker 2: mistakes parking in the driveway having somebody see him.

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Speaker 12: A neighbor took this photo out of a window of

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Speaker 12: the suspect's red carn or driveway, thinking it might have

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Speaker 12: been stolen and dumped her. It was ten thirty in

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Speaker 12: the morning last Friday, minutes before the Winnock's home started burning.

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Speaker 12: The neighbor, who asked not to be named, told me

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Speaker 12: that she saw dressed in a black trench coat and

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Speaker 12: face mask walking with the fifteen year old who lives

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Speaker 12: in the house. They were getting into the red car.

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Speaker 12: She was trying to mouth the words to me, but

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Speaker 12: nothing came out. The neighbor said, I looked down and

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Speaker 12: saw she was barefoot. She was crying a little bit.

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Speaker 12: She didn't try to make a run for it. There's

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Speaker 12: a girl, the fifteen year old teen girl being forced

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Speaker 12: out of the home by guy wearing a black trench

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Speaker 12: coat and a face mask, crying and barefoot.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the last days, a family suing the Sheriff's office

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Speaker 2: after an ex state trooper, Austin Edwards, lures a little

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Speaker 2: girl just turned fifteen online. When he crosses the country

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Speaker 2: to go kidnap the little girl, he ends up murdering

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Speaker 2: her mother and both of her grandparents. The victim's family

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Speaker 2: now accuses the Washington County Sheriff's Office a failing to

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Speaker 2: properly investigate Edwards before they hired him. What a mess?

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Speaker 2: How did this whole thing unfold?

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Speaker 4: Out?

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Speaker 2: To Kristin Kwan, do you cyb Bristol? Kristin, what exactly

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Speaker 2: did the neighbors see?

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Speaker 7: So the neighbors saw him, saw a man with a

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Speaker 7: trench pot on and he had the schol in her hand,

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Speaker 7: and she appeared really really distressed, and that was the

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Speaker 7: reason that she called nine one one, she called police.

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Speaker 2: Now, interesting, Daves mac the same woman had noticed a

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Speaker 2: red vehicle and even took a picture of it. What

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Speaker 2: do you know about that? What happened with that? Dave?

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Speaker 6: Well, that actually is what got her.

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Speaker 5: Really.

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Speaker 6: Thank God for a neighbor that's paying attention, Okay, because

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Speaker 6: without her, Nancy, we don't have the answers to this story.

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Speaker 6: Without her, we don't know who.

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Speaker 7: Let the house.

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Speaker 6: We don't know anything actually without this neighbor and not

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Speaker 6: directly next door, a little a couple of houses away,

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Speaker 6: she seesed this red car and she mentioned she thought

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Speaker 6: maybe somebody had stole it and they just dumped it

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Speaker 6: right there in that driveway. That's why she took the picture.

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Speaker 6: That was her thought. But she paid close enough attention

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Speaker 6: so that they could get the picture of the car.

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Speaker 6: They had a license plate, They had all the information

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Speaker 6: they needed because it didn't belong to there. When she

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Speaker 6: sees bill girl, Okay, the girl was barefoot, and she

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Speaker 6: the woman could tell that it looked like she had

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Speaker 6: been crying. So while she says that she didn't make

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Speaker 6: a run for it, well there was enough other you know,

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Speaker 6: the way she was acting that the woman who this

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Speaker 6: is not right. There is something wrong. So red cards

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Speaker 6: should not be parked in my driveway. A girl shouldn't

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Speaker 6: be barefoot walking with another man where she looks like

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Speaker 6: she's frightened.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's amazing to me. Joining me Scott Johnson,

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Speaker 2: forensic Psychologists, joining us out of Minnesota, thirty two years

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Speaker 2: in the business, author of When I Love You Turns

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Speaker 2: Violent and physical abusers and sex offenders. You can find

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Speaker 2: them at Forensic Consultation dot org. Scott Johnson. Isn't it

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Speaker 2: the human mind? Amazing? And that is why I always

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Speaker 2: wanted to question witnesses myself, of course before you put

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Speaker 2: them on the stand, but in depth in a casual setting,

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Speaker 2: like in their home where they're comfyar their apartment, and

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Speaker 2: go through the story very slowly, and you ask questions

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Speaker 2: that may really be irrelevant, like what exactly did you see?

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Speaker 2: What were they wearing, did you see their face? What

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Speaker 2: was their demeanor? Did they have anything in their hands?

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Speaker 2: Did you see a car nearby? Was anybody else around?

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Speaker 2: Just a million questions. And this woman remembers the teen

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Speaker 2: girl was barefoot and it struck her as odd. Isn't

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Speaker 2: that amazing that she sees a man and a girl

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Speaker 2: walking out of the house and that one thing struck

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Speaker 2: her as odd?

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Speaker 13: Absolutely, And it's the thing that sensory wise her brain

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Speaker 13: picked up on that it just didn't look right, the

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Speaker 13: man's dress the way he is, the girl's looking scared,

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Speaker 13: and she has no shoes on, and so those things

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Speaker 13: kind of get tattooed in the brain.

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Speaker 2: And thank God that they did notice these things. So

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Speaker 2: for right now. Oh, we've got is red car to

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Speaker 2: go on. That's not helping us a lot to Doctor

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Speaker 2: Tim Gallagher joining US Medical Examiner for the entire state

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Speaker 2: of Florida. You can find him at pathcaremed dot com.

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Speaker 2: Lecturer University of Florida Medical School and founder of the

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Speaker 2: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. I would be in

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Speaker 2: hog Heaven at that conference, doctor Gallagher. It's a misconception

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Speaker 2: that you can burn bodies to the extent there will

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Speaker 2: be no evidence left explain, all right, that's a common misnomer.

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Speaker 14: Actually, sometimes burning the body you would actually create more evidence.

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Speaker 14: One of the things that we need to know in

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Speaker 14: cases of victims who are in fires is were they

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Speaker 14: killed before the fire was set or did they die

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Speaker 14: as a result of the fire. And by then we

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Speaker 14: can establish a timeline, you know, for a certain acts

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Speaker 14: the suspect may have committed.

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Speaker 2: You know what you're making me think ofsted off the

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Speaker 2: top of my head. The Teresa Halbach case. She a

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Speaker 2: twenty meter amateur photographer. She was taking photos for the

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Speaker 2: Penny Pincher type. It was auto trader. That was you

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Speaker 2: know those free little newspapers you get when you go

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Speaker 2: into the grocery store. They're right there at the doors,

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Speaker 2: like Peeni Pincher auto trader. She went to the home.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna remember this making a murderer on one of

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Speaker 2: the streaming was an HBO or Netflix thank you, trying

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Speaker 2: to pretend that Stephen Avery was innocent. Well, let me

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Speaker 2: tell you. Her teeth and the studs off the back

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Speaker 2: of her Daisy f. Wintess blue jeans were found in

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Speaker 2: a fire pit in his backyard. Anyway, by burning her

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Speaker 2: in the fire pit, he thought he got rid of

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Speaker 2: all the evidence. But the teeth state, what's different about

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Speaker 2: the teeth and the bones?

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Speaker 15: Dr Gallagher, Well, the teeth and bones are created mostly

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Speaker 15: by calcium, and calcium is not flammable, so everything around

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Speaker 15: it would be incentive leaving the calcium behind. So teeth, bones,

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Speaker 15: and a lot of the even if the person had

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Speaker 15: a medical device within them, for instance a pacemaker or

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Speaker 15: a breast implant or some kind of other medical device,

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Speaker 15: that would stay behind with the serial number on it,

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Speaker 15: and then we can use that serial number to identify

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Speaker 15: whose remains those are.

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Speaker 2: A lawsuit just filed by a little girl's aunt, Michelle

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Speaker 2: Blanden and her younger sister claims Austin Edwards was quote

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Speaker 2: unfit to be a sheriff's deputy given his mental health

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Speaker 2: background when he was hired. He's accused of threatening to

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Speaker 2: kill his father during a mental health crisis. He had

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Speaker 2: a psychiatric evaluation, he was put into a treatment facility.

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Speaker 2: The little girl's family says that should have stopped him

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Speaker 2: from buying or possessing a firearm under Virginia law, But

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Speaker 2: the claim and response is he never informed Virginia State

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Speaker 2: Police about the ordeal.

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Speaker 1: Well, will that protect them?

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Speaker 2: All? I know right now three people are dead. Let

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Speaker 2: me query you with another question. One of the three

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Speaker 2: dead bodies and a missing girl have to do with

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Speaker 2: the sale of a home all the way across the

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Speaker 2: country from Riverside, California and Virginia. Take a listen to

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Speaker 2: Ashley Hope, wc ybe.

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Speaker 16: According to Smith County, Virginia records, Edwards also recently purchased

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Speaker 16: a home in Saltville from Jacob Gordon.

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Speaker 17: I had the house on the market for just a

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Speaker 17: few hours, and you know, I got a full price offer,

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Speaker 17: and you know, was told it was a Virginia State

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Speaker 17: trooper and we went from there.

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Speaker 16: Deed for the property on Alison Gap Road was recorded

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Speaker 16: on November fourteenth.

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Speaker 17: He was only behind me for about eight days. You know,

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Speaker 17: he was actually very nice, accommodating. He offered to help

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Speaker 17: me on my home.

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Speaker 16: After purchasing the home, it appears he blacked out windows

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Speaker 16: and put up dark curtains.

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Speaker 2: Thought it was really weird.

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Speaker 18: And then, of course the owner told me also that

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Speaker 18: he required that they sent the video of the basement.

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Speaker 18: I mean, he didn't see the property before he purchased it,

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Speaker 18: but he required a video of the basement, which seems

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Speaker 18: really weird to us.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let me understand what I just heard. Joining me,

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Speaker 2: Kristen Kwan, do you see y b First of all,

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Speaker 2: where is Smith County, Virginia?

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Speaker 7: Smith Junny, Virginia is in the southwestern area of Virginia,

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Speaker 7: close to northeast Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: Very rural area of Virginia, very rural area. Now you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a realtor. Darryl Cohen never been interested in

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Speaker 2: realis state law, although my real estate professor, James Rayberg,

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Speaker 2: scared everybody stiff. But how typical is it? I mean,

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Speaker 2: you've got people within your practice not you, that deal

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Speaker 2: with real estate closings. To buy a home site and

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Speaker 2: seeing yet you insist on seeing a video of the

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Speaker 2: basement first, Nancy, I've.

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Speaker 5: Been around a long time. But by the way, Professor

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Speaker 5: Rayburg scared that, you know what out of me is?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nickname was death ray.

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Speaker 5: May.

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Speaker 2: Can't even call him here. I have eye contact, so.

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Speaker 5: That should have been his real name, not his nickname.

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Speaker 5: But for someone to buy a home unseen is at

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Speaker 5: best unlikely. For someone to buy a home unseen and

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Speaker 5: want to see a picture of the basement video, what

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Speaker 5: does that tell you? They're up to something that's absolutely bad.

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Speaker 5: It's nefarious, it's unbelievable, and it's got to be on

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Speaker 5: every real estate agent's radar.

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Speaker 3: This ain't right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes me think of, oh, my son has

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Speaker 2: just gotten into breaking bad where the high school teacher

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Speaker 2: has a meth lab, but it's not in his home,

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Speaker 2: but he has the secret places he doesn't. That would

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Speaker 2: be my first thought. They're putting a meth lab down there.

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Speaker 2: But what about this? So it's a very rural area

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Speaker 2: and as soon as he buys a home he blacks

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Speaker 2: out the windows and puts up dark curtains. Is that

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Speaker 2: not ring any bells of alarm? In your minds, because

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Speaker 2: it sure is mine. So who is this guy? Take

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Speaker 2: a listen again to Ashley Hoak.

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Speaker 16: I asked Gordon if he had many interactions with Edwards.

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Speaker 2: He kept to his salef. He really didn't have a

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Speaker 2: lot to say.

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Speaker 17: I actually invited him to have dinner with me and

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Speaker 17: my family one night, and you know he politely declined.

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Speaker 16: And others in the area saying Edward's reportedly visited places

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Speaker 16: in town wearing a trench coat.

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Speaker 18: Yes, he had a strange presence about in my wife

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Speaker 18: sets of course the guy who lived in front of

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Speaker 18: him that I know, he said that he had a

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Speaker 18: very strange presence, that the guy was very weird, creepy,

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Speaker 18: kept in his house. He didn't get out a lot.

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Speaker 18: Short time here he'd already set off alarms to detected.

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Speaker 2: Rich wasstock joining us thirty years in the business now

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Speaker 2: an expert detective. Was Stocky questioned to you, how many

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Speaker 2: times has a victim or witness said, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it was, it was just something weird about him

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Speaker 2: many times.

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Speaker 8: Is unbelievable to me that, especially when we talk about

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Speaker 8: in my presentations with moms, moms are never wrong. God

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Speaker 8: has given moms a sense of protecting their children. And

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Speaker 8: sometimes the mistakes that troll officers make when they're going

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Speaker 8: to these calls and taking the report is that they

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Speaker 8: doubt what the feeling is of people around the area,

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Speaker 8: and especially moms. So I always make it a point

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Speaker 8: when I trained my police officers in cybercrime that never

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Speaker 8: discount what the mom says, or somebody that's been out

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Speaker 8: in the neighborhood is retired and watches everything that goes on,

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Speaker 8: because they're a great wealth of information because they know

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Speaker 8: when something's out of place, and.

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Speaker 2: You're hearing the voice of a seasoned detective, so you

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Speaker 2: know that these witnesses are talking about an individual that

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Speaker 2: ultimately ends up to be a perpetrator. So Scott Johnson

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Speaker 2: joining me, forensic psychologists shorting us out of Minnesota and

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Speaker 2: author Scott, I've theorized about this many many times that

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Speaker 2: I'm just a JD. You're the shrink, and I mean

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Speaker 2: that in a loving and caring way. There's something, and

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Speaker 2: I really believe it's not just a hunch. It's something

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Speaker 2: born over thousands and thousands of years of evolution, possibly

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Speaker 2: something we ourselves don't realize that we're picking up on

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Speaker 2: maybe a look in the eye, maybe I'm a wrong word,

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Speaker 2: a demeanor, But very often I get a sense about someone,

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Speaker 2: as do the majority of my witnesses that I have

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Speaker 2: dealt with. They get a vibe, as my daughter calls.

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Speaker 5: It, what is that right?

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Speaker 13: And it's noticing again, something that's just out of the ordinary,

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Speaker 13: and therefore it stands out of the brain. We expect

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Speaker 13: a certain person to act a certain way in a

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Speaker 13: certain situation, and yet.

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Speaker 5: We don't see that.

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Speaker 13: We see something different, and so it stands out as

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Speaker 13: odd and it kind of bothers us. But we're not

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Speaker 13: always sure what.

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Speaker 2: To do with it, Yeah, because we don't really understand

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Speaker 2: where we're getting the information, why we feel that way.

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Speaker 2: How many times, Jack, have you said, Okay, something's not right,

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Speaker 2: there's something wrong with him? And it usually is a

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Speaker 2: him sorry guys. Often So you've got this guy all

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Speaker 2: the way over in Virginia, as our new friend christ

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Speaker 2: And Kwan has told us, very rural area near the

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Speaker 2: Virginia Tennessee line, blacking out his windows, getting a video

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Speaker 2: of the basement, buying the house full price sight unseen.

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Speaker 2: What does that have to do the three dead bodies

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Speaker 2: and a house on fire. Take a listen to Tony

438
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: Chen NBC four. Catfishing led to.

439
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 9: The deaths of the three most important people in my life,

440
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 9: my dad, my mom, and my sister.

441
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 10: Which is why Michelle is pleading with parents to talk

442
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 10: to their kids about this tragedy, so hopefully it won't

443
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 10: happen to anyone else's family.

444
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 19: He was a sheriff's deputy in Virginia, but he developed

445
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 19: an inappropriate online relationship with a fifteen year old girl

446
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 19: here in Riverside. Authority say he drove across the country

447
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 19: to meet her and then eventually murdered three members of family.

448
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: Cat fishing, cat fishing, You've got this guy all the

449
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: way in Virginia. You've got three dead people and a

450
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: missing teen girl in Riverside, California, cat fishing.

451
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Greace.

452
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: What a tragedy. This little girl already living through hell,

453
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: no longer has her mother or grandparents. In the last days,

454
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: a multimillion dollar bombshell lawsuit, But on what is it based?

455
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: Joining me right now? Special guest t Tanya Jordan, chief

456
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: parenting and marketing officer at Bark Technology. I've got Bark.

457
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: I'm not a pay spokes first, I'm not getting a

458
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: dime out of it, but I've got it on my phone.

459
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: It is my husband. She's the author of Parenting in

460
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: a Tech World. To telling you what is cat fishing?

461
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 20: It's a call for term for an activity that's been

462
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 20: around as long as there's been an Internet, namely pretending

463
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 20: to be somebody else online.

464
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 21: And it's gut.

465
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 20: Wrenching to hear this story, and even more gut wrenching

466
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 20: to know that at BARK we're sending alerts daily around

467
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 20: predatory behavior, risky contact, sextortion. In many cases we have

468
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 20: to notify major entities like nick NICK, the National Center

469
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 20: for Missing and Exploited Children.

470
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: What exactly is it?

471
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 20: What exactly is cat fishing? Yes, it's the act of

472
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 20: creating a false identity and then interacting with somebody for

473
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 20: a specific purpose, usually to lure them into some sort

474
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 20: of relationship. It can include mild flirting all the way

475
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 20: to years long partnerships. And the catch is that these

476
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 20: people have never and we'll never meet them in real

477
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 20: life except we're in rare, unfortunate circumstans. Was like the

478
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 20: one we're talking about today.

479
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: It happens so often. I've got twenty pages of similar

480
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: transactions right in front of me, and we saw it

481
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: most recently and the Delphi double murder of Libby and Abby,

482
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: where you're a catfisher. A pudgy guy that lived in

483
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: his mom's basement was using a Justin Bieber lookalike photo

484
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: to lure young girls, including Libby and Abby, meet up

485
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: with them, get naked photos of them. It was a

486
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: monkey wrinch thrown in the entire double home side investigation.

487
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: Cat fishing. It's happening all the time. And to Tanya,

488
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: Jordan just told you what it is. But what does

489
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: it have to do with this chase?

490
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 21: Virginia Stave Police tell us the suspected shooter served as

491
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 21: a trooper right here in met Richmond for about ten

492
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 21: months before he resigned in October, and then he got

493
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 21: a job in the Washington County Sheriff's office. They tell

494
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 21: me they hired him on November sixteenth, ten days before

495
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 21: this triple murder.

496
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 5: Austin Lee Edward's Division.

497
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 21: One RCO CBS six covered edwards graduation from the Virginia

498
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 21: State Police Academy back in January. A spokesperson says he

499
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 21: was hired and entered into the Academy in July twenty

500
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 21: twenty one and was assigned to cover Henryko County when

501
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 21: he graduated.

502
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: Guys, you were just here. He our friends at wtv R.

503
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: Now take a listen to Tony Sin.

504
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 10: Investigators say, this is the man who took their lives.

505
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 10: Twenty eight year old Austin Lee Edwards, a law enforcement

506
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 10: officer from Virginia who police say used a fake Internet

507
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 10: profile to appear to be a seventeen year old boy

508
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 10: so he could have an online relationship with Brooks's fifteen

509
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 10: year old daughter. It's a method of internet deception called catfishing.

510
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 9: He took an oath to protect, and yet he failed

511
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 9: to do so.

512
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: Instead, he prayed on the most vulnerable.

513
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 10: Investigators say after killing the Winneck family, Edwards set the

514
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 10: home on fire and took the teenage girl with him.

515
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 2: Tatarni and Jordan joining us, chief parenting officer at Bart Technology.

516
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: Once the catfisher starts talking to the girl, the girl

517
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: the young girl thinks he's sixteen seventeen years old. He

518
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: then befriends are enough online to get valuable information like

519
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: phone number and home address. Of course, sometimes people post

520
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: photos that have their home address. In the background, like

521
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: they're in their front yard and you can see maybe

522
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: their car or their home. Why is it important to

523
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: never give out your home address or where you work,

524
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: or any personal information like that to somebody you don't know.

525
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 20: I mean, you outlined it clearly, But for everybody that

526
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 20: has only been half listening, and you are listening right now,

527
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 20: pay attention. Pay attention to this. Your children need to

528
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 20: know that the people they're talking to online aren't necessarily

529
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 20: who they say they are. They can be tricky people.

530
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 20: These are adults who are highly skilled one thing, and

531
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 20: that is tricking them. And they can be the smartest,

532
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 20: most loved, brilliant children on the planet and they can

533
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 20: still get tricked. Your children need to feel comfortable telling

534
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 20: you about who they talk to online without ramification of

535
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 20: doing so. You need to stay calm and they need

536
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 20: to know that this is out there and that you

537
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 20: are the safe place.

538
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: So you detected to rich with Stock, this is your

539
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: belly wick. How do you tell your children without scaring them?

540
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: What is cat fishing? I mean I just say to

541
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: my son, who are you playing with? And he says

542
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: so and so, like who else you know? Some other chid?

543
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: I'm like how do you know it's not like a

544
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: sixty five year old guy and is underwear in New

545
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: Jersey and you're playing with them online. Don't give him

546
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: your location on your real name. How do you tell

547
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: them without scaring them? Detective?

548
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 8: So I teach you about one hundred thousand kids a year,

549
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 8: and we talk about this in depth. I give them

550
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 8: a sure way how you can never be catfish. So

551
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 8: we talk about five factors of authentication. If you can't

552
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 8: tell me their first name, their last name, their phone number,

553
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 8: where they go to school, and where they live, based

554
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 8: on what you know to be true physically, everyone else

555
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 8: online is a liar. So then I ask the kids

556
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 8: how many webcams do you have at your disposal? They'll

557
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 8: have a webcam on their chromebook, their iPad, their desktop,

558
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 8: their tablet, and their phone. So if you are talking

559
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 8: to someone that you really have not verified who they are,

560
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 8: and they're asking for personal information with parent or guardian permission,

561
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 8: tell them, hey, let's go to webcam. I just want

562
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 8: to make sure you're not catfishing me, and I want

563
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 8: to make sure you are who you say you are.

564
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: Well, I tell Detective, I tell the children it's usually

565
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: my son he can't play with anybody on line that

566
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 2: he doesn't know in real life he's never met, and

567
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: I think it's working. So that leads me to detective

568
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: where's the girl? The last we heard of her, she's

569
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 2: being taken out of the house by the guy wearing

570
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 2: a strench coat and barefoot. The search is on for

571
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: a red car. Take a listen to Rick Chambers KTLA.

572
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 22: He murdered the girl's mother, Brooke, and the girl's grandparents,

573
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 22: Mark and Cherry Winnick, and then set the fire as

574
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 22: he dragged the struggling team to his car. Neighbors noticed

575
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 22: that commotion and called police, but by the time they arrived,

576
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 22: the home was burning and Edwards was already driving back east.

577
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 22: But about two hours after the murder's police spotted Edward's

578
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 22: red car on Highway two. Forty seven. SWAT units were

579
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 22: called in and a pursuit began along Route sixty two

580
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 22: in Kelso, though Edwards began shooting at the SWAT vehicle.

581
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so this guy not only has taken the girl,

582
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: murdered her entire family, but now he's shooting at cops.

583
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: Take a list to Fox eleven parked in another neighbor's driveway.

584
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: They left.

585
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: That woman, who described the girl as in distress, gave

586
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: police his license plate. Officers tracked them down halfway to

587
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 3: Vegas and say during the pursuit, Edwards lost control while

588
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: shooting at police and their chopper. The girl managed to

589
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 3: escape to safety and police return fire. Edwards had worked

590
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: for two law enforcement departments in Virginia with no priors

591
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: or marks against his name.

592
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: So this guy has a gun and is brazen enough

593
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: to shoot at cops. Two Scott Johnson. That tells me

594
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: he's willing to kill again. Even shooting at cops. He's

595
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: already killed three people in order to get this girl

596
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: back to his layer in Virginia with the blacked out

597
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 2: windows and the heavy curtains. He's willing to kill to

598
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: have sex with a fifteen year old.

599
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 13: Girl, right, and you know this psychopathic traits, you know,

600
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 13: the minimum of any anxiety or fear. You know, they

601
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 13: really just don't care about tomorrow. They care about today,

602
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 13: and so you know, to take the risk of being

603
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 13: shot and killed, it just it didn't matter to him, and.

604
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 2: He just didn't care.

605
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 13: It was about the power of the control, the fantasy

606
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 13: of having this victim back in isolation in Virginia and

607
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 13: the rest just didn't matter to him.

608
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 2: You dete to Rich with Stocky joining us. And this

609
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: is a guy that's in law enforcement. He's been in

610
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: a jail before. You know, the first time I ever

611
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: went in full to county jail when I walked out

612
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 2: into the parking lot and it was a very blak

613
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: asphalt parking lot, it was the most beautiful thing I've

614
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 2: ever seen. Just to get out of that in jail.

615
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: This guy knows the consequences, was Stocky absolutely so.

616
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 8: I've arrested over three hundred of these Internet predators and

617
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 8: it's butcher, Baker, camelstick maker. It can be firefighters, police attorneys, doctors.

618
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 8: It is always a secret life that nobody knows about.

619
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 8: And until we hit that door with a search warrant,

620
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 8: then the cat's out of the bag. Or in this case,

621
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 8: when he goes so far and does these unbelievable horrible acts,

622
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 8: now he knows he's found out.

623
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 2: I mean Datonia George joining us from Bark. You can

624
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: find her at Bark dot us. Titania children and I

625
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: think their parents have no idea what the children are

626
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: up against. The level of deceit, the level of cunning,

627
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: the brazen character of these online predators. This guy has

628
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 2: already killed three that we know of, and willing to

629
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: kill cops to get this girl alone in that blacked

630
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: out basement.

631
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 20: It's disgusting, it's angering.

632
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 5: You know.

633
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 20: The Capsish knowingly uses flattery and emotional manipulation as an

634
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 20: adult against children to kick start a connection and then

635
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 20: nurtures it steadily. It can happen to any one of us,

636
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 20: you know. Detective Ritual Stockey says so many times, not

637
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 20: my kid, not my kid. It absolutely can be your kid.

638
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 20: It could be my kid.

639
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: Daryl Cohen is joining me, former felony prosecutor now civil attorney, Cheryl.

640
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: You and I have spent way too much time in

641
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: the Fulton County jail. Once you've been in that place,

642
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: you never you never want to go to jail ever.

643
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: But this guy is so driven by his demons, he'll

644
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: do anything to get this girl Nancy.

645
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 5: Once you've spent one minute in the Fulton County jail,

646
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 5: that's one minute too long. It's horrible, and it is

647
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 5: indicative of so many jails. This guy, Yes he is crazed,

648
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 5: Yes he is evil, Yes he is wrong and it's

649
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 5: hard to look into his mind.

650
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: Well, you may be happy to know that when he

651
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: opened fire on the cops, they shot him dead. But

652
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: this girl has a life time sentence of pain. Nancy

653
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 2: Gray Scrum's story, signing off Goodbye sound