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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent coverage.

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Speaker 3: That is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 4: If Donald Trump loses the November election, what do you

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Speaker 4: think went wrong?

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Speaker 1: How is it possible that Biden could get ten million

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Speaker 1: more votes in twenty twenty than Democrats had done it

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. One answer to that is, well, because

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Speaker 1: all the rules changed, So you got a new game

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Speaker 1: and you've got new results as a consequence. Event, I

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Speaker 1: would just point out, so I was down in DC

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Speaker 1: on January twenty first, twenty seventeen, covering the Women's March.

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Speaker 1: Something like five million people, most of them women, came

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Speaker 1: out in March that day against Donald Trump. Continue with

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Speaker 1: a historically inaccurate analysis and you're going to have an

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Speaker 1: improper kind of strategy.

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Speaker 3: Out of it.

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Speaker 4: All right, Welcome to Counterpoints Friday. We're now about a

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Speaker 4: week and a half away from the November election, and

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Speaker 4: Ryan and I are joined today by Michael Knowles, the

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Speaker 4: host of The Michael Knowles Show, who also has a

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Speaker 4: candle line.

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Speaker 1: Michael, you know I only sell combustibles now, so I

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Speaker 1: have my Mayflower cigars. I wasn't sure if I'd become

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Speaker 1: a candle mogul, but I guess a lot of the

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Speaker 1: audience is a kind of live, laugh, love, suburban feminine type.

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Speaker 1: Because we are selling bazillions of candles at the candleclub

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Speaker 1: dot com. They're a great product. I'm not surprised.

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Speaker 3: Ryan.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it's time free to go to ndle.

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Speaker 3: Everyone needs a good candle. Yeah, that's for sure.

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Speaker 4: Well, Michael, one thing we wanted to start off with

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Speaker 4: just putting all of our cards on the table. I

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Speaker 4: can't think of two people that probably disagree more than

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Speaker 4: you and Ryan Grim So we're hoping for a lively conversation.

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Speaker 4: But one place to start could be if Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: loses the November election, what do you think went wrong?

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Speaker 4: Who would deserve the blame? It is basically a tied

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Speaker 4: race right now, so that's not outside the realm of possibility.

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Speaker 4: Kamala Harris despite all of the flaws that you and

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Speaker 4: I might ascribe to her, and I think reasonably so,

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Speaker 4: is still, you know, popular among some swath of the

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Speaker 4: American people, significant swath among the American people looks like

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Speaker 4: an even swath compared with Donald Trump. So if Trump

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Speaker 4: actually loses in November, who's to blame?

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Speaker 1: I think the blame would have to lie in the

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Speaker 1: way that the system has been changed. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, the election rules were largely changed to

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Speaker 1: extend election day to election season and to encourage widespread

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Speaker 1: mail in ballots, which makes ballot harvesting a little bit easier.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even really getting into the shenanigans that sometimes

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Speaker 1: crop up in the city machines. I'm just talking about

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Speaker 1: the actual, now legal and official modes of conducting the

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Speaker 1: election that obviously radically changed the nature of the election

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. A lot of people said, how is

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Speaker 1: it possible that Biden could get ten million more votes

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty than Democrats had done in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 1: And one answer to that is, well, because all the

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Speaker 1: rules changed, So you know, you got a new game

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Speaker 1: and you've got new results as a consequence. Event I

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Speaker 1: think that would be really the only way to explain it.

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Speaker 1: You know, I love Trump, not a big Kamala fan.

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Speaker 1: I'm a conservative Republican, But even trying to take some

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Speaker 1: distance here, it seems to me that the issues basically

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Speaker 1: all cut for Trump right now. The economy cuts for Trump,

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Speaker 1: foreign policy cuts for Trump, immigration cuts for Trump, some

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Speaker 1: of the social issues cut for Trump. Probably the one

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Speaker 1: issue that the Democrats before you are getting.

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Speaker 5: Before before you get into that, because I think that's

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Speaker 5: an interesting point to May. I did want to flag

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Speaker 5: on one point you made there, that access to the

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Speaker 5: ballot is the only explanation for why there were so

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Speaker 5: many more people voting in twenty twenty than twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: I would just point out.

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Speaker 5: So I was down in DC on January twenty first,

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Speaker 5: twenty seventeen, covering the Women's March. I have never seen

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Speaker 5: a march that big in my life. In Washington, DC.

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Speaker 5: Something like five million people, most of them women, came

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Speaker 5: out in marched that day against Donald Trump. This is

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Speaker 5: the day after he was inaugurated. Democrats themselves, the Democratic

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Speaker 5: leadership was hostile to or skeptical of that Women's march.

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Speaker 5: They didn't they were flat on their back. This was

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Speaker 5: an organic kind of Facebook generated reaction to the election

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Speaker 5: of Donald Trump, and it was it was real, like

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Speaker 5: the anger at and the shock that Trump had become

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Speaker 5: president was a real thing. And you saw that energy

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Speaker 5: for four straight years, and you saw it metastasize in

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Speaker 5: some really interesting ways that we can talk about. And

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Speaker 5: I think that that played a significant role in why

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Speaker 5: so many people voted in twenty twenty, like they.

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Speaker 3: Were just living. I'm not so sure.

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Speaker 1: I'm not denying that the left is good at street organizing.

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Speaker 1: They do it a lot, but I don't think the

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Speaker 1: Women's March was unique. You saw similar street protests with

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Speaker 1: George Floyd Riot's even before that. You saw it with

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Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street. Even before that, you saw it with

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Speaker 1: the ant Occupy War or podcast.

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Speaker 3: By Wall Street. I was, I was. I covered that too.

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Speaker 5: There were dozens of people that occupy Wall Street, hundreds

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Speaker 5: at the most even, But.

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Speaker 1: There were occupied protests throughout the country too. There was

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Speaker 1: even in New Haven. I was in college at the time,

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Speaker 1: and they'd occupy New Haven, which I agree it was

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Speaker 1: pretty pitiful. But even going back to the Bush era,

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Speaker 1: you know, you had Code Pink, you had all of

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Speaker 1: these kind of protests so that the left does that.

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Speaker 1: The left takes to the streets throughout the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: It just doesn't always translate to it was.

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Speaker 5: Like substantially different numbers of people that five million people

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Speaker 5: is the most in American history came out against Trump.

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Speaker 5: I'm just saying, it's just worth understanding that as like

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Speaker 5: you're no your enemy, no your adversary, Like they were

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Speaker 5: pissed and it was real.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe the left, the left gets very angry, and

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Speaker 1: they do it in different numbers at different times. My

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Speaker 1: only contention is I don't know that street protests always

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Speaker 1: translate to success at the ballot box. If that were

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Speaker 1: the case, I think probably Carry would have want to

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Speaker 1: know four and I think probably Hillary would have won

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Speaker 1: in sixteen. So what changed here was not that the

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Speaker 1: Democrats were especially angry, or that you know, a certain segment,

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Speaker 1: you know, women were especially angry. I think what changed

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Speaker 1: and what accounts for ten million new votes is that

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Speaker 1: they changed the election rules. And so you described that

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Speaker 1: as access to the ballot. I suppose certain people who

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Speaker 1: otherwise would not be motivated to vote, who weren't paying

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Speaker 1: attention to the election, might have cast a ballot because

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Speaker 1: of ballot harvesting, but it also.

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Speaker 3: Does I don't want to get blocked down.

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Speaker 5: And I'm I'm just saying, you can't compare the Women's

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Speaker 5: March and the amount of energy that pulsed into the

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Speaker 5: streets in twenty seventeen to the Iraq War. I was,

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Speaker 5: I was actually participated, though that was before I was

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Speaker 5: a journalist. There were a couple hundred thousand at the

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Speaker 5: peak that came out for that Code pink is like

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Speaker 5: six people in a group house in DC. Like these

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Speaker 5: these are not the most comparable movements.

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Speaker 1: I'm just And you don't have to absorb any of

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Speaker 1: this that I'm saying, but your analysis is going to

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Speaker 1: continue to be confused if if you don't if you

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Speaker 1: if you really believe that code pink in during the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War is the same as five million women coming

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Speaker 1: out of the streets. And I think, I think every

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Speaker 1: four year politics, I think the Libs come out every

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Speaker 1: four years or so and they yell in, they screen.

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Speaker 5: It's just historically inaccurate. And but good continue with a

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Speaker 5: historically inaccurate analysis, and you're and you're going to have

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Speaker 5: uh an improper kind of strategy out of it.

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Speaker 4: Well, Michael, maybe here's a good question.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It kind of looks like we're winning the election right now,

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Speaker 1: so I think I think the Republican strategy has played

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Speaker 1: pretty well. We'll see, we'll see if the Republicans can

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Speaker 1: overcome the new rule changes that the Democrats uh scrammed

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Speaker 1: on everybody's throats. But as of right now, the polls

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Speaker 1: are looking very, very good for Trump. So if anyone

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Speaker 1: needs to rethink strategy, I think it would probably be

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Speaker 1: the party that ran a guy who obviously had dementia,

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Speaker 1: lied about it, swapped out the candidate at the last

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Speaker 1: minute for a woman who never got primary vote while

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Speaker 1: she was running for president on issues that she can't

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Speaker 1: win other than maybe trying to promote infanticide. Even then,

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Speaker 1: probably not going to push her over the finish line.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about that, because to your point, now,

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump has never been this is a weird figure,

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Speaker 4: but he's actually never been more or less unpopular. If

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Speaker 4: you look at his favorability ratings, they've gone up since

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Speaker 4: like twenty twenty, which is baffling. And if you had

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Speaker 4: told me on January seventh that would happen. The only

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Speaker 4: way I would believe it is if the media continued

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Speaker 4: to react very poorly to like legitimately objectionable things that

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump was doing, but having the exact opposite of

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Speaker 4: what made sense of reaction to the media and not

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Speaker 4: understanding his voters, not understanding why people continued to like him.

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Speaker 4: That was the only way that it would make sense

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Speaker 4: to me. But the point that I wanted to ask is,

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Speaker 4: as you mentioned, it looks like a lot of the

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Speaker 4: issues that are front of mine for voters are cutting

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Speaker 4: in Republicans' favor, cutting in Trump's favor. But even so,

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Speaker 4: this is basically a statistically tied race, meaning there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of support for Kamala Harris. And I guess, maybe,

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Speaker 4: to Ryan's point, what do you make of that, why

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Speaker 4: are so many people if all of those issues are

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Speaker 4: cutting in Donald Trump's election? The media right now is

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Speaker 4: asking why isn't Kamala Harris running away with the election,

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Speaker 4: But maybe the question is why isn't Donald Trump running

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Speaker 4: away with the election if the issues are so in

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Speaker 4: his favor?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that there are a lot of historical

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Speaker 1: issues with it, but I think that big the chief

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Speaker 1: issue right now is the way that the election is

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Speaker 1: being conducted, so we talk about new voters being brought in. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the Biden Harris administration has flooded the country with foreign nationals,

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Speaker 1: many of whom are planning to vote in the election.

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Speaker 1: You don't need to take my word for it. The

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Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation I got video interviewing illegal aliens who admitted

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Speaker 1: on camera I'm an illegal alien, I have been registered

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Speaker 1: to vote, and I intend to vote for Kamala Harris.

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Speaker 1: So this is all available online. You've seen some pushback

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Speaker 1: against that in various states, but it's just a fact

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Speaker 1: that when you have eight million new border encounters over

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Speaker 1: a three and a half year period, foreign nationals who

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Speaker 1: over went elmingly identify with Democrats. That's going to have

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Speaker 1: downstream demographic effects, especially because we know that the children

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Speaker 1: and even the grandchildren of these immigrants, many of whom

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Speaker 1: are illegal immigrants, identify as Democrats and they will have

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Speaker 1: the right way.

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Speaker 3: After that. Just one final point on this.

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Speaker 1: This is after the largest movement of people in recorded history,

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Speaker 1: which is immigration into the United States since nineteen sixty five.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's part of the reason is that

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Speaker 1: the Democrats have explicitly campaigned on changing the demographics of

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Speaker 1: a country in a cynical way that actually often harms

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Speaker 1: the people they're bringing in but will help them electorally.

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's why this election looks different than

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Speaker 1: if it were taking place they twenty years ago. Walk

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Speaker 1: us through, Walk us through how somebody who is here

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Speaker 1: illegally would would vote?

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Speaker 3: Like what? Well he would?

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Speaker 5: Why have we why have we failed to catch anybody

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Speaker 5: other than like one or two people in the.

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Speaker 1: Past we've got we've got more than one or two people,

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Speaker 1: but maybe six. Well, yeah, I think it's pro more

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Speaker 1: than six. The way that we have, the way that

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Speaker 1: it's nothing, it's like minuscule. And then they're all in Texas.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no they're not.

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Speaker 1: They're actually throughout a number of states, including some liberal

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Speaker 1: states like California. But californiaou'd be a good place to

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Speaker 1: start because of motor voter laws. So that's the easiest way.

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Speaker 1: When illegal aliens in states with liberal policies go to

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Speaker 1: the DMV, they're allowed to get driver's licenses and other

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Speaker 1: identification forms, and at the DMV they're allowed to register

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Speaker 1: to vote. Now, of course, officially speaking, they're not supposed

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Speaker 1: to register to vote. But if everyone is automatically being

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Speaker 1: offered the opportunity to register to vote, and they're getting

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Speaker 1: their driver's license. Then the people who don't have that

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Speaker 1: eligibility but nonetheless can get a driver's license sometimes fall

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Speaker 1: into that pile. You're seeing a big issue right now

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Speaker 1: in Arizona because there's a difference between the federal law

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Speaker 1: and the state and the local law. So for state

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Speaker 1: and local elections, people have to show proof of citizenship

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Speaker 1: to register to vote. For the federal level, they don't,

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Speaker 1: which to me is pretty crazy. It seems to me that,

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Speaker 1: if anything, it ought to be flipped the the federal

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Speaker 1: elections are the more important ones, But in any case,

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Speaker 1: that's the rule right now. So now Arizona has to

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Speaker 1: deal with hundreds of thousands of people who are potentially

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Speaker 1: ineligible to vote, and they're probably going to be able

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Speaker 1: to vote anyway, and it will be fought the election,

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Speaker 1: which is why the established Just one final point of this,

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Speaker 1: this is why the establishment media right now are trying

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Speaker 1: to normalize the notion that we won't have the results

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Speaker 1: on election night, which is preposterous. PBS had a headline

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Speaker 1: they said, not only will we not have the results

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Speaker 1: on election night, but it's normal not to have the

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Speaker 1: results on election night every election in my lifetime, including

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Speaker 1: Bush v. Goor when Democrats tried to overturn the results

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Speaker 1: of that election before it became unpatriotic to try to

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Speaker 1: overturn the results of an election. Even in two thousand

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Speaker 1: we had the results on election night. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: not sure when it became normal. I guess it's just

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Speaker 1: when the Dems wave their magic wand four years ago.

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Speaker 5: Well, they didn't have the results until December when the

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Because al Gore challenged the election, but they actually did

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Speaker 1: call the election that night, needed to recount, but Kamala

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Speaker 1: Harris is up nine are pushed for it and then

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Speaker 1: tried to overturn their laws and allow for a rec

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Speaker 1: That was back though, when Democrats enjoyed overtraded election.

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Speaker 3: But okay, So in.

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Speaker 4: The RCP average, Kamala Harris is at like forty nine percent.

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Speaker 4: So basically the thing I would disagree with it you're

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Speaker 4: saying is that the amount of I mean, there's obviously

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Speaker 4: been a huge flood of both legal and illegal migration

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Speaker 4: into the country over the course of the Biden administration.

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Speaker 4: But if I were to ascribe a percentage point of

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Speaker 4: like the RCP average that is boosting Kamala Harris to

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Speaker 4: forty nine point four percent. I think they have Trump

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Speaker 4: around forty eight percent. I just don't know how significant

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Speaker 4: that would be, to be honest. I mean, it seems

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Speaker 4: like the American people are genuinely torn between Trump and Harris.

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Speaker 3: Do you disagree with that?

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Speaker 1: I think the American people are torn between the right

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Speaker 1: and the left. That's certainly true. And I think that

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Speaker 1: the left controls basically all of the institutions at this point,

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Speaker 1: and so America has liberalized significantly. I mean, whatever you

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Speaker 1: think about the so called social issues, it's simply a

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Speaker 1: fact that when Hillary Clinton was running in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight, she ran on abortion being safe, legal, and rare.

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Speaker 1: She ran on abortion being a bad thing. Now that

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Speaker 1: the Democrats shout their abortion. When Barack Obama was president,

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Speaker 1: during his first term, he believed that a marriage was

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Speaker 1: a sacred union between a man and a woman. That

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Speaker 1: was his recent as twenty eleven, and then Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: blabbed that they were going to change position, and they

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Speaker 1: finally did, but it was pretty recent, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about thirteen years ago. So the country has moved

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Speaker 1: significantly to the left, and that gives an advantage to Kamala.

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Speaker 1: She just happens to be so weak a candidate, and

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Speaker 1: Trump happens to be more sympathetic than he's had ever

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Speaker 1: been because after years of the Democrats justifying his assassination,

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Speaker 1: someone actually pulled out the gun and tried to do

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Speaker 1: it and nearly succeeded the first time, and tried again

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Speaker 1: a second time. So he, as you say, he's the

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Speaker 1: least unpopular that he's ever been right now. And also

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Speaker 1: all of the issues are cutting in the Republican's favor,

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Speaker 1: So I agree with you, this is bad news for

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Speaker 1: Republicans that even with all of the headwinds working Foruplicans,

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Speaker 1: it's still a close election. But that's what happens when

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Speaker 1: the Democrats have succeeded at reshaping the country and the

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Speaker 1: and the laws that shape cultural attitudes.

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Speaker 5: And Democrats would say that the reason that they're competitive

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Speaker 5: or the reason that why they have might even have

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Speaker 5: a slight advantage at this point is Trump's success in

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Speaker 5: overturning Roby Wade, and that the country has kind of

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Speaker 5: recoiled recoiled at that what what's your what's your assessment

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Speaker 5: of that, and tell me, like for people who like,

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Speaker 5: our ecosystems don't overlap enough, so a lot of our

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Speaker 5: viewers might not know, you know what, what exactly your

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Speaker 5: politics are where you are on this side I understand

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Speaker 5: is you're you're like pretty hardcore on the on the

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Speaker 5: life side. Down the line, she prepped me a little bit,

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Speaker 5: like you're like down the line, like as as out

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Speaker 5: there as you can get on it, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we ought to protect babies. I think

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Speaker 1: it's bad to kill babies. As basically, I guess that's

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Speaker 1: an extreme position now I used to be a kind

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Speaker 1: of a moderate, common sense position.

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Speaker 3: I want to elaborate on that.

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Speaker 1: We agree, Yeah, I don't think we really need to elaborate.

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Speaker 1: I think it's bad to kill babies, so that that

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Speaker 1: would that would inform my election choices. I agree with

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Speaker 1: you that Roe v. Wade's overruling is an issue in

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Speaker 1: the campaign. I think it's really the only issue that

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Speaker 1: helps Democrats at all, and then only in certain places.

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Speaker 1: But conservatives have debated how how to react to this.

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Speaker 1: You've you've seen a lot of Republicans just basically trying

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Speaker 1: to downplay the issue. On the campaign trail, which is

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Speaker 1: probably fine as a matter of prudence. I think what

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Speaker 1: happened with Roe v. Wade being overruled is not that

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Speaker 1: pro lifers merely won a victory. It's not that Democrats

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Speaker 1: want a political victory, as some of them plan. It's

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Speaker 1: that the whole conversation changed. So now the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: says in its in the Dobbs ruling that the issue

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Speaker 1: has to go back to the states. The Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: could have said that the Fourteenth Amendment provides equal protection

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Speaker 1: and so you can't kill babies anywhere. That's an argument

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Speaker 1: Professor Robbie George John Finnis made that argument an amicus

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Speaker 1: brief to the Court. But that's not what they said.

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Speaker 1: They said, the issue goes back to the states and

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Speaker 1: people can vote on it. And so the issue for

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Speaker 1: pro lifers is that when abortion has come up as

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Speaker 1: a ballot initiative, the pro abortion policies have succeeded. They've

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Speaker 1: prevailed pretty much every time. So Republicans are in a

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Speaker 1: bad position right now because we're in a whole new ballgame.

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Speaker 1: And so what is required is to win hearts and

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Speaker 1: minds and persuade people that it's wrong to kill babies,

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Speaker 1: and it's good to protect life at the state level,

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Speaker 1: but that's not really a federal matter right now. The

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court is ruled on it. So when Trump and JD.

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Speaker 1: Vans downplay the issue of abortion, I think they're doing

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Speaker 1: so as a matter of political prudence, but it's also

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Speaker 1: just common sense. They really have nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: that issue right now. Unless the Supreme Court is going

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Speaker 1: to reverse its position, which it's not, then that's really

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Speaker 1: a matter for the states, and it's a matter for

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Speaker 1: ubernatorial candidates and state legislature candidates.

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Speaker 5: To fight and not to debate the point. But just

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Speaker 5: on the definition of babies again, do you think that

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Speaker 5: an IUD kills babies?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: And and IUD is a contraceptive device, right, So in principle,

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Speaker 1: I'm not, you know, not the biggest sexpert in contraception.

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Speaker 1: I have three kids under four. But from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: that would prevent the conception of a baby, so.

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Speaker 3: Prevent it in general prevents the implantation.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, inasmuch I suppose this would be similar to

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Speaker 1: certain aboard of fashion drugs, where the uh B nature

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Speaker 1: of it, like Plan B, is debated and some people

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Speaker 1: you're being, I suppose a little bit more blunt about

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Speaker 1: it than many pro sexual revolution types on the left.

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Speaker 1: But many people argue that things like Plan B or

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Speaker 1: things like Iud's are merely contraceptive and not a board

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Speaker 1: of fashion. But if they are contraceptive, then they prevent contraception.

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Speaker 1: If they're a border of fashion, they obviously they obviously

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Speaker 1: involve abortions.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just a matter of basic fact that sometimes

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Speaker 5: they prevent implantation. Right, So you would considers it a

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Speaker 5: so you would say, you do is if that's the case,

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Speaker 5: If I'm right about that, that you think that iud's

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Speaker 5: the woman with an ID is like killing baby.

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Speaker 1: The question you're asking me, I guess the question you're

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Speaker 1: asking is when do I think human life begins? And

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Speaker 1: so my answer is I think it begins at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what else you would say it begins.

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Speaker 1: Of course, no one's really campaigning in this uh this election,

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Speaker 1: not even campaign on abortion, but no one's really campaigning

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Speaker 1: against iu D's or any contraception or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: We're pointing out that the Democrats have taken the legal

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Speaker 1: rare position. Well, the reason is because.

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Speaker 3: The Democrats said your voting to kill Go ahead and find.

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Speaker 1: The reason that they're not campaigning on that is because

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Speaker 1: the Democrats have moved the goalposts so far. They used

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Speaker 1: to campaign on safe, legal, and rare. Now they campaign

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Speaker 1: on abortion at any moment up till birth and including

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Speaker 1: after birth. So uh, I know the Democrats are trying

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Speaker 1: to run away with this because it's unpopular. But Andrew Cuomo,

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Speaker 1: when he was governor of New York, was one of

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Speaker 1: the first Democrat governors to change law to say there

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Speaker 1: will be no restrictions on abortion, even change the penal

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Speaker 1: code such that if you killed a woman who was pregnant,

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Speaker 1: it would no longer be double homicide, would only be

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Speaker 1: a single homicide. And then he lit up the Freedom

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Speaker 1: Tower pink to celebrate. Tim Walls, as governor of Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: repealed legal protections for babies who are born alive who

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Speaker 1: survive abortions. Babies can survive outside of the womb now

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Speaker 1: as really as twenty four weeks, twenty three weeks, twenty

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Speaker 1: two weeks, even twenty one weeks, so it's very very young.

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Speaker 1: Abortions take place up until the moment of birth, and

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Speaker 1: so previously in Minnesota there was a law that required

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Speaker 1: doctors to provide medical care to babies who survive abortions,

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Speaker 1: just as you would provide medical care to anybody who

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Speaker 1: needed it. Tim Walls remove those protections. Tim Walls then

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Speaker 1: also removed the reporting requirements. Now we know the numbers disputed,

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Speaker 1: but we know some way at least five, maybe eight,

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Speaker 1: maybe more babies actually were born alive and they were

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Speaker 1: callously left to die without any medical care. So that's

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Speaker 1: where we're fighting the issue right now because it clarifies

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Speaker 1: the issue so much. And that's where Democrats have brought

436
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 1: the issue. It's not Replicans who have done that.

437
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 4: Well, Ryan, I saw your reaction to the after birth thing.

438
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 4: Did you want to follow up on? I mean, Michael

439
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 4: explained what happened in Minnesota for example. It's a matter

440
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 4: of not providing care, legalizing the declining to provide care.

441
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 3: Do you is that not?

442
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 4: I mean, that is a real thing that both Cuomo

443
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 4: is something that Ralph Northam advocated.

444
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 5: I guess why don't we leave this to doctors?

445
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 3: Like who am I to like?

446
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 1: Because governing republic and we have tell us against murder.

447
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's so amazing that the Democrats who have

448
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: been campaigning for socialized medicine for decades. Now say on

449
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 1: this one healthcare issue, we just need to get the

450
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 1: government out of it. What are you talking about, recitizens?

451
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: We live in a self governing and republic. We have

452
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: something to say about the laws. That's why we're all

453
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 1: talking about an election here, and we're talking about a

454
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 1: matter of life and death, even if you take the

455
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: babies out of it. For some reason, you don't like

456
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: the babies. But let's say you're just talking about I

457
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 1: don't know, a disabled woman or something, just an adult

458
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: who is in the room who requires desperate medical care

459
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: in an emergency room. Would you say that doctors should

460
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: just ignore her. Wouldn't you say that the law ought

461
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: to impel medical providers to provide that urgent medical care.

462
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 1: We have plenty of those laws on the books right now.

463
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: Why is it just the case that when it comes

464
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable little babies that for them we,

465
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: in the words of Ralph Northam, we just kind of

466
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,239
Speaker 1: put them on a table, you know, maybe make them

467
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: a little comfortable and have a conversation between the doctor

468
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 1: and the mutter to see if you want to kill him.

469
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I want babies to die either, but we're also

470
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 5: but I think it becomes very difficult to talk about

471
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 5: when there's an entire movement that thinks that having an

472
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 5: IUD is killing a baby.

473
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 1: So at that point, you can't trying to change the

474
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: subject from the real political issue to a contrived political issue,

475
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: because you know that the real political issue as it's

476
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: being thought the Democrat position is completely indefensible and abhorrent

477
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: to anyone who has even a modicum of a So

478
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 1: you try to move.

479
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 5: To a conference why not debating why not why not

480
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 5: argue around the final trimester and supporting if if a

481
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 5: fetus is viable like that.

482
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 1: Hold on, there's a big difference between the final trimester

483
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 1: and uh an I U D or something. Right, there's

484
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: a lot of space in the middle. And right now,

485
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: the issue is that abortion is effectively legal at any point,

486
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: including in some places after birth, which is just called murder.

487
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: So I think what the Democrats are trying to do

488
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: is really blur this issue. And I'm all for having,

489
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, bioethical debates over the origin of life and

490
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: all the right. I find that all very interesting, But

491
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: we're in an election season, and what I'm observing is

492
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 1: the actual political issue, The actual political the policies that

493
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: are being advanced by the Democrats right now all concern

494
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: those latter stages. The much clearer point of this, you know,

495
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 1: up until the moment of birth, shout your abortion changing

496
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: the penal code for goodness sakes in New York. Why

497
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: is it that the Democrats, why is it that you Ryan,

498
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: when we're debating this right now, you are desperately trying

499
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: to avoid that part of it because you know that

500
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: that's that's a losing issue for people.

501
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I'll tell you the reason my view

502
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 5: on this is I don't even want to have a

503
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 5: view on this, Like I don't want to have anything

504
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 5: to do with it, Like I.

505
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: Want this slavery?

506
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: Does the Southern States? Forget about that?

507
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 5: It's not the states for women and their doctors just work, work,

508
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 5: just like I trust, I trust them to make the

509
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 5: decision that is that is best for them and I.

510
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 5: And there's so much to think about in this world

511
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 5: that like, why do I.

512
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: Need to think about I'm curious what do I have

513
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: to try this about in fanticide or the law? So

514
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: what're elections or politics in a self governing republic? And

515
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: this is a deeply important moral issue.

516
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 5: There's a lot of deeply important moral issues. Why do

517
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 5: you care so much about this? I'm just just curious.

518
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 5: I don't like, I don't even necessarily want to debate

519
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 5: the question.

520
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what that much point.

521
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: But what I'm happy to tell you what because the

522
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: right to life is not just one right among many.

523
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: It's not like the privilege to drive a car or

524
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: the right to smoke a cigarette at the age of

525
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: twenty one. The right to life is the fundamental right

526
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: on which all of the other rights rely. It cuts

527
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: down to the very core of our beings. So this

528
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: is why we have very serious laws against murder. It's

529
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: why we take murder laws and murder trials more seriously

530
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: than the laws about jaywalking or tickets about parking. So

531
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: this is obviously a really important issue. Cuts to the

532
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: heart of who we are, how we think about all

533
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: of morality and all of the law, and all of

534
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: the human person. And the people who we're talking about

535
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: here are the most vulnerable people among us, who don't

536
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: have a voice, who are innocent little babies. So to

537
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: me that seems kind of important. You know, I know

538
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: there are a lot of big issues in the world.

539
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: But I think I would I would put jaywalking or

540
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 1: even tax rates at a less significant part of this

541
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: debate than say, the.

542
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: Right to life.

543
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, when again, pursuing that question, like when in your

544
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 5: life did women's pregnancies become like something that you were like,

545
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 5: this is the thing I really am going to make.

546
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: My Well it's not.

547
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: Women's pregnancies became important to me when my wife was

548
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: pregnant for the first time because I had to, you know,

549
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: go get her like snacks and things at night. But life,

550
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, the question of human life. Morality has been

551
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: a question for a long time. I mean, if you're

552
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: interested in politics and you're not interested in practical morality,

553
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: well I don't really know what you're doing because the law,

554
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: by definition, is a codification of practical moral views. And

555
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: I by the way, he.

556
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,959
Speaker 3: Was just like an always thing, Like is this an

557
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 3: always thing?

558
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 5: Like the first time in like middle school, you learned

559
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 5: about it, You're like, this is I need to fight

560
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 5: for these.

561
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 4: I mean he's Catholic, right, mich Oh.

562
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: No, I'm Catholic, But I was in an apostate for

563
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: a long time. So I was from the age of

564
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: thirteen to twenty three.

565
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 3: I was.

566
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: I was pretty irreligious, and so I was in favor

567
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: of legal abortion. I had no problem with it. I

568
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: didn't understand why pro life was believed in it. And

569
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: I was having a lunch one day a summer fellowship

570
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: with a bioethicist and she was asking me my views

571
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: on things, and I said, oh, you know, I'm a Republican.

572
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: I like low taxes, but I don't care about abortion.

573
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: It's fine.

574
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,239
Speaker 1: And then we had a lunch, a long conversation about it,

575
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: and she persuaded me that I was wrong. So I know,

576
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: in our modern day it's unusual for people to be

577
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: persuaded by arguments, but she persuaded me that there's really

578
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: no argument for abortion, and that the argument in favor

579
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 1: of life and defending the preborn is pretty much rock solid.

580
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: You were twenty three, No, I was twenty one during

581
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: that lunch. I was twenty three when I reverted to

582
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: the church.

583
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 5: And so you're twenty one and you got argued into

584
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 5: being yep anthea.

585
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: Boy by a very intelligent bioethicist.

586
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: Well so on that point. Interesting.

587
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 4: Now, Ryan asked a question earlier that to all of this,

588
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 4: at the heart of all of this, He said, well,

589
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 4: when is the beginning? When does the beginning begin? And

590
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 4: an issue where that question is incredibly alien is on IVF,

591
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 4: which has become something of an election issue because Donald

592
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 4: Trump is now campaigning on being what did he say,

593
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 4: the father of IVF something to that extent. And Michael,

594
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 4: you're a staunch opponent of IVF for a lot of

595
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 4: the reasons that we've already talked about. So how do

596
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: you sort of square that circle? How do you justify

597
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 4: support for Donald Trump, somebody who's even walked back prior

598
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: pro life statements and seemed to, at least for the

599
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 4: sake of political expediency, I don't actually know what's in

600
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 4: his heart or what he really believes, kind of moderate

601
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 4: on that particular issue, and then extend it to him

602
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 4: calling himself the father of IVF, campaigning on free IVF,

603
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 4: like universal IVF access by the federal government or through

604
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 4: some combination of federal grants and state grants. How does

605
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 4: that How do you sort of rationalize supporting Trump if,

606
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 4: as you say, human life is really the fundamental question

607
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 4: of our politics.

608
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: Sure, well, there are two parts to that. One on

609
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: President Trump speaking more ambiguously about pro life actually think

610
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: that's probably a good idea. I would encourage him to

611
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: be a little more ambiguous, just as a matter of

612
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: political prudence. I wouldn't encourage him to lie. It would

613
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: be a.

614
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: Moral to lie.

615
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 1: But in terms of downplaying an issue, the one issue

616
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: that the Democrats seem to be winning on, I think

617
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: that's probably a good idea because, to quote Cocaine Mitch McConnell,

618
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: the winners go to Washington to make laws and the

619
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: losers go home. So I really don't have a problem

620
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: with prudence in politics when it comes to in vitro fertilization.

621
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: There's another reminder that politics is the art of the possible.

622
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: It's the art of the second best and the art

623
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: of inclusion. A lot of arts in politics, and in

624
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: vitro fertilization is a relatively novel technology that poses complex

625
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: bioethical questions that most people have never considered because it's

626
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: not their job to consider it, and it's just, you know,

627
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: they go about their lives and it's kind of.

628
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: A new idea.

629
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: This is true even among pro lifers. So when we're

630
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: talking about a relatively small subset of the population that

631
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: views IVF to be morally unacceptable. You know, you're talking

632
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: about a small number of people. Add on to that

633
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: that many people know someone or know someone who knows

634
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: someone who is conceived via IVF, and though that would

635
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: not be morally dispositive, just as you'd say, I know

636
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: people who have been conceived in the case of rape,

637
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: their lives are of course as valuable as anyone else's life.

638
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: They have a right to life. But that's not to

639
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: justify rape, of course, like that. You know, good ends

640
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: don't justify immoral means. But it's difficult to overcome that

641
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: emotional hurdle, that hurdle of pathos. So I think probably

642
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: the prudent thing to do here. The Catholics have always

643
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: been opposed to IVF because the Catholics take bioethics very seriously.

644
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: It's not just the Catholics. The Southern Baptist Convention just

645
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: came out as the largest Protestant denomination in the country,

646
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: just came out and said IVF is probably morally unacceptable.

647
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: Most people just don't know why. They don't realize that

648
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: IVF creates lots and lots of embryos that will be

649
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: destroyed or frozen indefinitely. They don't consider that if commoditizes

650
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: human life, it turns human life humans from proper subjects

651
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: with rights into objects commodities to be bought and sold

652
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: traded at the baby store. It raises all sorts of

653
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: questions over who has rights in reproduction. You know, traditionally

654
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: understood the only people have rights in reproduction are babies

655
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: to be the right to be the product of the

656
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: specific congical act of their parents joined together in marriage.

657
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: Now we have this notion that people have a right

658
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: to a baby, just like I don't know, a wealthy

659
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: woman has the right to a handbag or something. That's

660
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: obviously not acceptable. But people haven't really considered all of this,

661
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, this is kind of new stuff,

662
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: and so I give people a lot of grace on it,

663
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: you know, And I just think we need to work

664
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: this out. I really agree with the Baptists in their statement,

665
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: people need to work this out, consider this issue. I

666
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: hope they do it before some of the negative consequences emerge.

667
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: Because IVF and no matter what fine effects come as

668
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: a result, IVF establishes the domination of science and technology

669
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: over the origin and toy of human life. That all

670
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: that said, thirteen days to a presidential election. You are

671
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: not going to radically persuade hundreds of millions of people

672
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: of a complex and nuanced bioethical point with regard to

673
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: a novel technology that most people consider to be an

674
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: unmitigated good.

675
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 3: It's just not going to happen.

676
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: So if some political candidates want to, you know, kind

677
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: of dance around the issue or not address it.

678
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 4: Trumps leaning fully into it.

679
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: He's I'm the father of other Republican senators have done

680
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: that too. And you know the thing is, I don't

681
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: think he's being cynical about that. I don't think he's

682
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: being opportunistic. I fully Gramt as somebody who takes this

683
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: matter very seriously, and I think about bioethics a lot.

684
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: It's it's a complex it.

685
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: Requires, you know, some nuanced understanding and an examination of

686
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: first principles. And so I bet Trump is right, And

687
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: I bet you know, if he could have a conversation

688
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: with a bioethicist like I had, I don't know, maybe

689
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: he might be persuaded like I was.

690
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: Trump being persuaded of something.

691
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 4: Is Trump talking to a bioethicist? That's funny and all.

692
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 5: All that's pretty amusing to think of. Let me run

693
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 5: something past, you get your reaction to it. You know,

694
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 5: from from the feminist perspective and also broadly from a

695
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 5: left wing perspective, there's all there's always a lot of

696
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 5: skepticism of people who say that they are opposed to

697
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 5: abortion because they're out to protect babies, that the idea

698
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 5: is like, Okay, maybe some of the people who are

699
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 5: marching in the streets believe that, but the leaders of

700
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 5: the movement they actually have a much bigger agenda at

701
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 5: play here, and that agenda is pushing back against women's rights,

702
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 5: against the entire sexual revolution, which they think was a

703
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 5: mistake in the sixties and the seventies. They may be

704
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 5: modernity itself was a giant mistake. All these women in

705
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 5: the workplaces. They want to you want to go back

706
00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 5: to a much a different time, make America great again,

707
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 5: maybe back to before America. Emily was telling me. You

708
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 5: had a funny quote of like, you don't want to

709
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 5: go back to.

710
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: Twenty fifties, twelve, twenty twenty, Okay, Right, So people hear

711
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: that and they're like, oh, okay, I get it. This

712
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: guy's just against all of modernity basically, and women's liberation

713
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: that came along with it. So is it a coincidence

714
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: that those things align and that they just happen to

715
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: be separate, or do you see your mission of against

716
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: abortion rights as part and parcel of a kind of

717
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: cultural counter revolution. I think you're thinking about it too deeply.

718
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: I just think it's wrong to kill babies. Now, when

719
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about cynical or opportunistic motivations among leadership, I

720
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: don't know. I see more cynicism on the side of

721
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: the men who say that they're totally in favor of abortion.

722
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: I think that allows men to use women for their

723
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: sexual pleasure and then to not have any accountability. And

724
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's just men saying, hey, honey,

725
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: don't worry, I'll pay for the abortion. Please allow me

726
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: to use you without any accountability. So I find a

727
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: lot more cynicism there. In terms of women's liberation, I

728
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: don't know. It doesn't seem to have worked out very well.

729
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: There was a study that came out of Yale, I

730
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: think in two thousand and eight somewhere around there, that

731
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: measured a female happiness. The study is the paradox of

732
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: declining female happiness, and it observed that since women's liberation

733
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: so cold. In the early nineteen seventies, women's happiness self

734
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: reported happiness has declined both an objective measures and relative

735
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: to men. So they've become significantly less happy than men

736
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: have over that time. Now you have huge swaths of

737
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: American women men have, Yeah, men have all significally.

738
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 3: I think we should.

739
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: The would be another argument that, well, that would be

740
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 1: that's where we would.

741
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 5: Find sinus right, we could complain.

742
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: Well, no, I think probably your point here is making

743
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: my point, which is that, uh, men also are becoming

744
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: less happy. Maybe there's something going a little bit wrong

745
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: in the modern world. To bring us back to our

746
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: first point, we used to conduct elections neatly and easily.

747
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: We don't do that.

748
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: Maybe something's going wrong in the modern world.

749
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 3: So, by the way, I've also studied just that. I'm

750
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: just skeptical of a lot of those surveys.

751
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 5: I wrote a book it's actually the back here, Yeah

752
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 5: there it is, on social history of drug use. There

753
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 5: was a thing in the forties and fifties called Mother's

754
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 5: Little Helper. All of the women's magazines were heavily marketing

755
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 5: amphetamines to women throughout the throughout the country. They're absolutely

756
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 5: miserable and just just hopped up on these, on these, on.

757
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: This, we just put them on sen There's so much

758
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: progress we've had. It seems to me that when when

759
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,240
Speaker 1: people say it's a paradox of declining female happiness because

760
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: of all of the advantages of the women's live I

761
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: don't think there have been advantages. I think it's robbed

762
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: women of a lot of things they like. And you

763
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: can see this in a debate, not between conservatives, but

764
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: among feminists. There's a famous debate between Betty free Dan,

765
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: an American feminist, and Simone de Beauvoir. It was a

766
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: French feminist and the strumpet of Jumpel Sartre, and they

767
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: were debating whether or not women should be permitted to

768
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: stay home, and of Sartre, yes, they were debating whether

769
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: the women ought to be permitted to stay home and

770
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: keep house and raise a family. And Betty Free Dan,

771
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: being the American, she said, yes, of course women should

772
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: have that choice, but they should also have the choice

773
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: to go into the workplace if they want. And Simbonda Bovoir,

774
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: who I think is a more intelligent and insightful feminist,

775
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: she said, no, women cannot be given the choice to

776
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: stay home, because if women are given that choice, too

777
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: many of them will take it. They would most women

778
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: will be inclined to do something like that, and that

779
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: will inhibit women's liberations. So I take the feminists at

780
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: their word. I think they really did want to weaken

781
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: the family structures, diminish women's opportunities to stay home to

782
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: raise a family. You've seen obviously declining family sizes. We've

783
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: now been below replacement birthrate in America since the beginning

784
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: of this era, since nineteen seventy one or so.

785
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

786
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: It just hasn't really worked out that well. And I

787
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: think people are becoming really sad and really angry all

788
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: the time. And I think anger is a consequence of

789
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: sadness because people don't know how to deal with their sorrow.

790
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: And so that just seems subjectively true. And if things

791
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: are really praying and have been fraying over the past

792
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: fifty years, it doesn't seem so crazy to me to say, hey,

793
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 1: how about we avail ourselves of the wisdom of the ages.

794
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: Not the stuff that worked in the nineteen fifties or

795
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: the twelve twenties or whatever, but the things that have

796
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: consistently worked throughout all of history. That seems like the

797
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: common sense position.

798
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 4: Ryan mentioned or you mentioned Occupy Wall Street earlier, and

799
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 4: I think I don't want to put words in Ryan's mouth,

800
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 4: but I think a lot of the left would posit

801
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 4: that this decline and happiness came alongside the industrialization and

802
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 4: heightened predatory capitalism, essentially, and I actually think there's probably

803
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 4: something to that. And you and I probably agree in

804
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 4: a lot of these cultural questions, Michael, I know we

805
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 4: agree in a lot of these cultural questions. I think

806
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 4: people's misery and selfishness reflected in the business community. And

807
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 4: then I see, you know, Donald Trump capt paigning with

808
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 4: Elon Musk, and you know, I think Elon Musk is amusing,

809
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 4: but I also wonder how that's hitting people in you know,

810
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 4: the rust belt. I was at Butler when Elon Musk

811
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 4: was there, and people were going crazy for him. They

812
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 4: really liked him. Granted those were people at a mega rally.

813
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 4: But anyway, all that is to say, to what or

814
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 4: to what level do you think actually predatory industrial capitalism

815
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 4: run by as you and I would describe them, like

816
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 4: secular business predators or just secular businessmen to what role

817
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 4: do or at what level do you think that's contributed

818
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 4: to declining happiness?

819
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Elon is sort of the exception or

820
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: he's a contrarian, which is why people who otherwise would

821
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: despise these you know, zillionaires, people like Bill Gates say,

822
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: what are applauding for him? Because he's saying, look, there's

823
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: something that's really going wrong in our society. He's trying

824
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: to fix it. But I totally agree. I think there

825
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: are perfectly legitimate that right wing conservative criticisms of modern capitalism.

826
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think Trump would make that point.

827
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: I think this is why Trump also is able to

828
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: bring the head of the Teamsters union over to the RNC,

829
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, and have major labor unions not endorse Kamala.

830
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: Kamala still has that guy who's like Tony Soprano and

831
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: Archie Bunker from The Longshoreman, you know, but she's really

832
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: lost support among labor. So you know, this is a

833
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: critique that's come up through Trump, but also also beyond that,

834
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: and what is it. Well, it's that markets are great,

835
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: and you know, we support economic prosperity, but you can't

836
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: put the car before the horse. You have to recognize,

837
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: to the point we were discussing earlier with Ryan, that

838
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: there are moral considerations here and if you untether the

839
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: market for many moral considerations, you're going to be sunk

840
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: and everybody's going to be miserable, and maybe your GDP

841
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: ticks up, but it's it's not even reflecting economic health

842
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: because you can game the system very easily. I mean,

843
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: if drug dealers are trading fentanyl or people are going

844
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: to brothels, I guess that could be reflected in a

845
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 1: higher GDP, but doesn't mean your country is really healthier.

846
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: So to the point I think Ryan made a really

847
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: good point earlier that we have to take into consideration,

848
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: which is when our friend here waved the white flag

849
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: on talking about later term abortion. He said, look, I

850
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: just don't want to think about it. Why do I

851
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: have to think about these moral questions? And the answer is, well,

852
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 1: because you're a citizen and we're supposed to have a

853
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: self government here. And when John Adams says the Constitution's

854
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: built for moral and religious people, that's not just some

855
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: nice platitude that you hear at evangelical camps and brunches.

856
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: That he's really warning you of something John Adams was

857
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: not the most orthodox Christian in the world by any stretch.

858
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: He was making an empirical observation that our constitutional system

859
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: and things like markets and things like free enterprise do

860
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: not work if people are not constrained by morality. What

861
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: could happen then is you could have something that's used

862
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 1: for a right good like markets, be used for terrible evil,

863
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: for the exploitation of workers, which if you're a Christian,

864
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: that's one of the four sins that cries out to

865
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: God for vengeance, you know. I mean, that's a really

866
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: awful and evil thing to do. People who are putting

867
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: mirror profits over the common good and the health of

868
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: their country. That's something that the conservatives have to watch

869
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: out for too. But I think really the rise of

870
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: the Trump movement and populism and the Maga movement, whatever

871
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: you want to call it, over the old stale chamber

872
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 1: of commerce kind of republicanism. I think it's responding to

873
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: that need. And I think it's why you're seeing labor

874
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: come over. I think it's why you're seeing a Kennedy

875
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: for goodness sakes come over. I think it's why you're

876
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: seeing people like Telsea Gabbard come over. The Republicans, bizarrely,

877
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have predicted it twenty years ago, have become

878
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: the party that are responding to the real moral crisis

879
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: brought about by markets and labor.

880
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: Bye.

881
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just funny that Donald Trump is the

882
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 5: guy leading that party to it's you know, so it's

883
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 5: moral moral victory.

884
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: So I mean, I think I don't know why it's funny.

885
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 5: I really, you know, the guy has probably promised to

886
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 5: pay for I don't think he's paid for any abortions

887
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 5: because he doesn't pay his contractors or subcontractors.

888
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 3: Why would he actually go through on paying for an abortion.

889
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 5: But I'm you don't think you don't think he's like

890
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 5: suggested to somebody that he would pay for their abortion.

891
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 5: I mean, look at the guy, Like the guy's the

892
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 5: guy's life is a caricature of immorality, Like he it's fine,

893
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 5: like you can do whatever he wants.

894
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 3: I don't don't care. I don't know, I don't really speculate,

895
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 3: like the.

896
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 5: Idea that like this is the guy that would be

897
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 5: a role model for well, no, this moral this is

898
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 5: kind of comical.

899
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: Ryan, if you were religious, you wouldn't find it comical.

900
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: You might find it delightful, but you wouldn't find it

901
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: comical because God uses all sorts of imperfect people for

902
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: his ends. If you're if you're Christian, you certainly believe that,

903
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: and so the left. Ironically, I was speaking with a

904
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: very close left being friend of mine who said she

905
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: really hated Trump. Uh, and she just is a good person,

906
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: you know, onnlike Trump. And what's funny is that was

907
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 1: Trump's answer. He says, I try to be a good person,

908
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: you know, I try not to commit sins. But of

909
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: course all sin and fall short of the glory of God.

910
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: So you're speculating without any basis on all sorts of

911
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: private sins that Trump in principle could have committed, even

912
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: though again there's no evidence.

913
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, we don't have to do as much speculation.

914
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 4: As I mean, he's definitely an open adulterer.

915
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 3: That much is.

916
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: He's lived a very flamboyant life, and he's done all

917
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: sorts of terrible things, and he's been totally open about

918
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 1: a lot of those things. But I suppose the point

919
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: here from my perspective as a Christian, is yeah, right,

920
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: that is how God works. God uses flawed vessels. And

921
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: believe it or not Donald Trump, because he's had spotlight

922
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: on him for a long time. You know, it's very

923
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: easy to say he did that terrible thing, and he

924
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: did that awful thing, and he did that evil thing.

925
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, Ryan, you've done very evil

926
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: things too. And if you think that God can use

927
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: you to do good things, if God can use me

928
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: to do good things, it shouldn't be surprising that God

929
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: can use Trump. But what Christians say on Easter Sunday

930
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: is they say, oh, happy for that one for us,

931
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: so great, so glorious, a redeemer. They actually celebrate the

932
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 1: fall of man, the original sin, because it can not

933
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: that it's a good thing in itself, but it actually

934
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: brought about this great glory and redemption. So I don't know.

935
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: I think Americans like a comeback story. I think Americans

936
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: like redemption, and they like race, and I think the

937
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: gracelessness of the left, the total lack of charity of

938
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: the left, has repelled a lot of people.

939
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 5: A redemption story, though, requires somebody to be seeking redemption.

940
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 3: Is there any.

941
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 5: Evidence that you sak a lot of evidence that Trump redemption?

942
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so.

943
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: I think he's recanted a lot of his previous views

944
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: and behaviors, and I think he's owned up to being

945
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: a kind of a rough guy. I remember one time

946
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: he was asked if he had a beer, and he said,

947
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: now you know, I'm the only president that's never had

948
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: a beer. It's the only good thing you can say

949
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: about me. Can you imagine if I had a beer,

950
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: If I were a drinker, I'd be the worst. That's

951
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 1: called humility, and I think Donald Trump, ironically enough, exhibits

952
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: a lot more humility than most people in our political class,

953
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: certainly than the sanctimonious left, which ironically is be totally

954
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: bereft of sanctity.

955
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure you just said that Trump betrays a

956
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 5: lot of humility.

957
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: I think yeah, I think Trump demonstrates on ironically, Yeah,

958
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean a.

959
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 3: Lot more than the left. Yeah.

960
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 4: I think there is something that people miss with why

961
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 4: Trump appeals to like normal Americans, because he is like

962
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 4: self deprecating. Sometimes he does make fun of himself, but

963
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 4: he does make fun of himself. He let Fallin ruffle

964
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 4: his hair, something like that. But I'm curious when what

965
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 4: you made of Michael's answer about essentially predatory capitalism or

966
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 4: the excesses of it.

967
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

968
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 5: There, there's a good book on this subject that was

969
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 5: actually controversial among some feminists at the time, by Elizabeth

970
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 5: Warren and her daughter. You probably read it called the

971
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 5: two income Trap, and it was controversial because it suggested

972
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 5: that there are like as you said, there are some

973
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 5: who would say no, like both parents ought to be

974
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 5: or you know, both parents ought to be in the world,

975
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 5: like there shouldn't be a choice, because if there is

976
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 5: a choice, then the patriarchy is going to dominate. The

977
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 5: woman's going to be pushed out of that. What Elizabeth

978
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 5: Warren pointed out in her book is that what we

979
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 5: did is we reduced wages along the way, which drove

980
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 5: up the cost of doing all this. We broke up

981
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 5: families in a way that there wasn't the same help

982
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 5: from aunts and uncles and grandmothers and grandparents and raising

983
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 5: up family. So all of a sudden, now you have

984
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 5: less money, less family help, and two of you are

985
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 5: now working for the same amount of wages. And it

986
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 5: shouldn't surprise anybody that out of that comes just complete

987
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 5: collapse in people's happiness and well being, even as quality

988
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 5: of life by all other measures is growing. That you know,

989
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 5: we're living in better houses, there's more access to food,

990
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,760
Speaker 5: more access to clean water, environment.

991
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: But think about that.

992
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I love this point because yes, I agree

993
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: with that analysis pretty much entirely. I just love this

994
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: point where they say, yeah, so people are working all

995
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: the time, and they're making way less money for their work,

996
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 1: and their families are falling apart, and they're getting married

997
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: later and they can't have kids and they can't really

998
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: do anything, but their quality of life so much better

999
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: on all the other measures you think, well, on everything

1000
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: that matters, their quality of life is worse. I guess

1001
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 1: now they have an iPad, so that's nice. But than that,

1002
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: it looks.

1003
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 5: Like I think the points are in concert because what

1004
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 5: you're saying is like, despite the fact that, like if

1005
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 5: you look at like an average house, just the house itself,

1006
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 5: the average house today versus the average house in nineteen

1007
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 5: fifty five, like houses are much nicer, cars are much nicer,

1008
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 5: Like things are much nicer. Yet people are still like suffering,

1009
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 5: you know, in a much more significant way. What I'd

1010
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 5: say is like, everybody ought to be working twenty hours

1011
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 5: a week.

1012
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, twenty, Yeah, let's start with twenty. See how that goes. Like,

1013
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: there's not that much work to be done.

1014
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 5: We don't actually all need to be driving ourselves into

1015
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 5: the ground like this.

1016
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: So Ryan, I actually agree just having worked at businesses

1017
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: a number of businesses, now.

1018
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 3: I don't need forty do that job.

1019
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: Well, even just sixty percent of the time, people are

1020
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: kind of just twiddling their thumbs and popping sins and

1021
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 1: like going to the coffee break.

1022
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 3: So there, yes, I agree.

1023
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: The question is, though, I remember when when this issue

1024
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: came up during the Obamacare debates, Hillary Nancy Pelosi that

1025
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: was forty and slip. Nancy Pelosi was asked what people

1026
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: would do with all the extra time that they had

1027
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: now that they didn't have.

1028
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 3: To work to keep their health insurance, and she.

1029
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: Said, well, you know, they can write poetry, or they

1030
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: can go take an arm class.

1031
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, actually it's great.

1032
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 1: Most people are not very good poets and most people

1033
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: aren't that good at art. And so the question then

1034
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: becomes what what else?

1035
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 5: People can play softball, they can do basket weaving, like,

1036
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 5: they can do things that are like enjoyable and meaningful.

1037
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 3: They volunteer.

1038
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: And what's funny here, I think it's what's summing up

1039
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,359
Speaker 1: some of our disagreement, but oddly kind of agreement is

1040
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 1: on this point of the realignment. It used to be

1041
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: that the left talked about the common good and the

1042
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: Republicans just talked to about individualism and making money and

1043
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: you know, driving up GDP, And now it seems like

1044
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: it's kind of flipped. You hear the Republicans, especially the

1045
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: Conservatives and the Catholic Conservatives, speaking constantly about the common good,

1046
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: and it's the left talking about radical individualism, to choose

1047
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: one's own gender, to have an abortion, to do this,

1048
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: to do that, to leave the family, to do whatever.

1049
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I think it's important to care

1050
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: for the common good. And when you talk about what

1051
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: people would do, I think it would be nice. I

1052
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: think something people are yearning for is to feel like

1053
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: we're doing something together, that we're all kind of in

1054
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 1: it together, we have a common purpose as Americans. Barack

1055
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: Obama said this on the campaign trail the other day.

1056
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: He said, when did we become some asty and divided?

1057
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: We need to be much more unified. Well, I think

1058
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: if you're debating which side to vote for in this election,

1059
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: and you rightly recognize that we're divided, we don't have

1060
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: common purpose, and we don't know what we're going to do.

1061
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 3: This go around.

1062
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: At least it's the Republicans who were talking about the

1063
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: common good and a common purpose and unity. It's the

1064
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: Democrats who are totally ignoring that. I think you cast

1065
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: your boats accordingly.

1066
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders. That's right.

1067
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, like that he talks about the common good, and

1068
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 5: in a way that is like a representative of.

1069
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: A credit to Bernie Sanders, my little credit to Bernie,

1070
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 1: in the same way that Chesterton gave credit to.

1071
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 3: George Bernard Shaw.

1072
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 1: Chesterton, a conservative Christian, was friends with George Bernard Shaw,

1073
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: who was an atheist socialist, and he said, George Bernard

1074
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: Shaw is a man with a very great heart, but

1075
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: his heart is in the wrong place. And that's what

1076
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: I'd say about Bernie Sanders. The man does have a

1077
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: great heart, and he's like kind of trying to get

1078
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: at something, but it's totally in the wrong place. So

1079
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: he ends up a comedy, which is not good because

1080
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: that's a pale imitation of the true common good.

1081
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 4: And thus we have reached the impasse between Ryan Grimm

1082
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 4: and Michael Nols.

1083
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 5: And I googled strumpet Google stump I thought I kind

1084
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 5: of heard that word before so accurately.

1085
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that'll be the title of your next book, Michael

1086
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 4: Right or new Dailly Wire documentary.

1087
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 5: Campbell beating the charges that like the the like obsession

1088
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 5: with abortion is actually about just pushing back on feminism.

1089
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: Feminism is bad. We're not pushing back on abortion because

1090
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: we don't like feminism. We don't like feminism in part

1091
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: because of abortion. They're they're they're overlapping issues, but they're different.

1092
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: Feminism is bad. It's really it's made women miserable, and

1093
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: we should cut it out because the reason is it's

1094
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:24,760
Speaker 1: it's wrong about human nature.

1095
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, we could do another hour on that.

1096
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 3: Actually might as well. Couism.

1097
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 4: Well, what I'll do is also if you guys drinks

1098
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 4: and you guys will hash.

1099
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 3: It out and we'll figure Yeah.

1100
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 4: All right. Well, Michael Knowles, host of The Michael Knowles Show,

1101
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 4: thank you so much for joining us.

1102
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 3: Great to be with you both. Thank you very much.

1103
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 3: I appreciate it.

1104
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 4: We'll be back with more counterpoints on Wednesday.